9 40 755 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/daf751948e1d097767a5ec451ecc5953.jpg 043b9f62a8a4aad22bbb6ed73824c65a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/05e4d29b23c0ba2dc6d9830aeea3570a.mp3 ff6259f1759f07125b156f82e3fb96ba https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/516384fac4f44cf011fcd7a2c54514c9.pdf e3b75bf026f6bac65ff10bfd8ca91372 PDF Text Text 00:00:00.000 Jd: Are we recording? Okay. Kris: Ready? Okay. 00:00:04.322 Kris: Hi! My name is umm Kris Leggiero and I've been here, I am the SGA accountant at Skidmore for 17 years. Jd: Umm my question is, cause I know you are from long Island and then you came here, but before we get into the transition, what was your favorite childhood memory in long Island? 00:00:25.000 Kris: Okay. My favorite childhood memory on Long Island, uh does it have to be in Long Island, or, cause I did, you know I did, umm , I grew up also, you know, I lived in Brooklyn for a short period in time and for, I think more of my memories come from Brooklyn actually, which is really interesting. I just remember cause when we, when we lived in Brooklyn, It was, we lived in an apartment building. I grew up with my four sisters in a one bedroom. So by the time we moved to long island, it was a little bit different, and we had a house and you know everyone had their own bedroom so It was a little bit different growing up, but being in a room with my four sisters with these beds lined up one after the other, and, it, those are the memories that really stick in my head, because we were so bonded because we spent that much time, you know together in that room, whether it was fighting or laughing, or whatever, being silly. Or jumping from, this is a really good memory because I just remember it so vividly. We would jump from bed to bed to bed and go back. And we all, we all waited for my parents to come in and yell at us. [00:01:35.000] And they never did, I guess they figured we were, you know having so much fun and we were staying out of their hair. So, they, were like just let them do. It's funny because there are so many memories, but those are the ones that stick in my mind. Just the four of us in that room, late at night, probably staying up later than we should have been and just laughing and bonding and til this day we are just so close. [00:02:00.368] And I think it’s because of those moments of being so close back then. Jd: It's so interesting that you say that because a lot of times when you speak about your accent and you refer to it as your long island accent but then your memories are just from Brooklyn. Kris: Yes? Long Island I guess, you know, I moved to Long Island when I was in fourth grade and umm, but I guess. we were kind of, well my sisters were older and we just started going our own ways. And Long Island, I think my biggest memories of Long Island which is you know, I don’t know, it was just more of like when I was older and able to go out. And going to the different clubs and having fun with friends, and that period of my time as opposed to, but the �memories that I love the most are when I was younger and that's why I kind of go back to Brooklyn. [00:02:57.752] Jd: Those were the foundations. I wanted to know what influenced you to move to Saratoga. Kris: Oh! That's a good question. If you ever been to Long Island, there's a lot that influenced me. (laughing). So actually, what really happen so my children were not in school yet and a good friend of mine who I grew up with, I knew since oh my gosh, we were probably nine or ten years old, knew her through school and till this day we are best friends, [00:03:34.487], umm she went to school up here. By the time, she was in grad school, I guess and moved up here. I was already, I was married, I had kids, she was you know still in her path. I would come and visit her. I always use to come up. The funny thing is about is, she lived in Albany. The funny thing is, when they say you know you're from Long Island, and you may appreciate it this, I am not really sure, but when they say you know you are from Long Island when you think that Westchester is upstate, well that is so true. [00:04:05.000] because I never realized there was something to up North. I use to come visit her in Albany, and it was nice whatever. One weekend she says, "Let's go to Saratoga" and I'm like, "What is Saratoga?" (Laughing) So we came up actually for the big race, the Travers race, and we came up and I was like oh my goodness why did you not bring me here. It was just a beautiful town, everything I was looking for, and I love simple, I love being simple. At the time it was just a very simple [00:04:50.000] quiet town, fell in love with it. Ended up getting in touch with the builder, had a house built very quickly, before my kids got into school, and just moved up. And love it. I feel like I am on vacation every single day. Jd: Till this day? Kris: Till this day and I've been up here since '93. Over, way over 20 years, just absolutely love it. Jd: That leads me to my next question. What surprised you the most about Saratoga, what made you love it so much? (Laughing) Kris: So, what really surprised me about Saratoga, again that's a really good question again because this is another vivid memory. I was, I was probably on my first couple weeks here, and I am on Broadway, [00:05:32.608] and grab a cup of coffee, just kind of getting use to the town and seeing what stores are there. That was just about the time where bigger stores were popping up like Eddy Bauerer, Anne Taylor and all that section was not even there, and those hotels were not even here. And I grab my cup of coffee and I am walking through town and you know, just kind of minding my own business, and every �person, I am not joking, every person I pass was like "good morning, good morning" and I am looking around, are they talking to me. I was just not use to that. People are just umm, you know. people are just really friendly and they stop to talk to you. That, and on Long Island everything is just rush, rush, rush, people aggravated, traffic and then moving up here and just like living and it’s a funny thing, I was talking to someone just yesterday and she was making fun of my walk actually because I walk to slow, but that never was like that. As soon as I moved up here, I'm like that’s it, I am not rushing around anymore. I am just taking my time. That moment in town when people were saying hello to me, and I figured someone was behind me (laughing) [00:06:55.870], that they were talking to someone else. It's a great town, it’s an absolutely fabulous town. Jd: That's why I came to Skidmore, and financial aid, but when I came to visit everyone was so nice and saying hi all the time. It is so different in New York City. You don't say hi to anyone, you barely make eye contact. Kris: It is so different. It’s like this is the way I want to live. This is the way, you know, I knew in my core, that’s who I was because I love talking to people and I love being friendly, but down in Long Island. They will look at you with three heads, they are not going, you know, there like, "What do you want?" [00:07:37.333] Jd: It's almost suspicious when people are too nice in New York City. Kris: Yes, exactly. Jd: What was one thing that New York City had that Saratoga didn’t? Kris: Long Island? Something that Long island had? Jd: or Brooklyn Kris: Well, I have to go back to Long Island, so the thing that Long Island had that Saratoga does not have, and something that I wish it had, ugh the beaches. Without a doubt, without a doubt. I grew up ten minutes from the ocean. We use to ride our bikes down there and spend my whole summers there. The lakes are lovely, I will not go in a lake. But they are lovely. But the beach I so miss, but I do go back just for that. Jd: Are there beaches by here? Kris: You know, it will take me about three and a half hours to get to Jones beach on Long Island, but I guess Massachusetts. Everything is still probably around three hours away. �Jd: Nothing around here Kris: No lovely lakes, that’s about it, but it doesn’t compare. (laughing)You can’t jump in the waves in a lake.[00:09:02.705] Jd: You kind of just stay in the lake. Kris: Its beautiful to look like at, its serene, but it’s not the same, not the same. And bagels and pizza. Have to throw those in. Jd: Pizza is a big one. Kris: Yes, very big. Jd: And I feel like even when I go back now, it’s hard to find a good New York City Pizza because I don’t know where the good spots are anymore. Kris: I know, yeah that’s true. Yeah that’s true. Jd: So I wanted to transition into now your life at Saratoga and Skidmore, but more towards club life and the transitions in the seventeen years you’ve been here, Going towards your life, what’s your favorite part about it?[00:09:55.328] Kris: Favorite part about my job. Well. so, there's two favorite parts if I may. I've been doing bookkeeping, accounting, financial work since I've been 18 years old, and I love it! I absolutely love it. Umm, but I did work for an accounting firm, small accounting firm and I loved my work, but I am a people person, so it was very difficult for me. So, when this job became available I interviewed for it, and got the job. [00:10:40.870] I was able to do my love, the accounting that I love. I'm a little bit of a nerd. But then to be with the students and I have to say, working with students, and working with, you know, I consider you adults, but you know what I am saying, when I say adult, right two different things. The students here are amazing, they are motivating, they, and still seventeen years later I am still in awe of the students here. And, but they give me that you know, that motivation, seriously to do things in life. Like, everything that they can, like I can’t and I say this to everybody because I amazed at everything that you guys do. The clubs, and keeping up your grades, and working, and just like being these beautiful people. I was walking across campus the other day, again here we go again, the students, like three students, didn’t even know, it was early in the morning, I was heading over to a meeting and their just like, "good morning," and I am like, "really." These students are so nice too, and I am sure there are a few that are trouble makers, but for the most part the children are amazing. [00:12:05.870] And I am very fortunate, and every day I come to work and say "I �love what I do, I love my job." After 17 years, and it's because of you, it seriously is. Jd: It is so interesting, this conversation keeps coming up this week. I keep on talking to people about how amazing the students at Skidmore are and of course I am thinking about the pants that people wear because there are so amazing. Just looking at people's pants, especially in the fall or in the spring, I’m just like, because they are always so subtle, a lot of Skidmore students are always subtle but always doing a lot with their work [00:12:46.710]. So many interesting things too. It’s insane, like the art students, the students with computer science, like animation, like I just realized this week that that’s a whole sector of a course, that someone can specialize in animation. I’m just like, what, that’s awesome, that people are gaining these skills here, like that’s such an interdisciplinary space. Kris: You do, the students do so much, and they do everything so well. Even the fashion show, it’s like all the time you spend on that, that blows my mind because I work and I go home and I am like on the coach. [00:13:32.312] (Laughing) I'm done, but it’s so amazing. It keeps me young, it keeps me motivated. Like constantly striving, I can’t imagine if I worked in the CPA office, I couldn’t imagine where I'll be. I will probably be ten years older than I am. Just being here and the energy from the students. I feel so grateful on that end that I get to stay young and refreshed. I am very challenged in some areas like technology, but the students help me so when I go out in the real world, my world, I look pretty smart. (Laughing) Thanks you too. Jd: So my next question is, no actually, I am going to transition to somewhere else. What has been your favorite memory with a student at Skidmore? Kris: A student? Oh wow. That is so hard because I’ve met so many incredible students and bonded with so many incredible students. I think, I don’t know a specific memory here, because there is so many. But I think my, I think, when students graduate and we still have that connection, and I am still invited to weddings, and baby showers, [00:15:19.648] a specific memory, I have a student who calls me, I think almost every week and he graduated six years ago. And it’s you know, those things, those are just, those to me, mean so much. It will be very hard for to pick a specific memory for here. Jd: I think that answered it perfectly. Shifting over to clubs, umm, how have the clubs shifted over the years, if they have? Kris: I don’t know if there's been a big shift, what I see, it’s very typical, very consistent. The clubs that are really active, tend to remain active year after year after year. There may be a few clubs that have been active, that all of a �sudden, we have to have that conversation like "what’s going on," "how’s the membership, how’s the eboard working" because we can tell. We can tell the clubs that have been so active, and the ones that have been active all of a sudden are kind of. I think it’s very consistent about the clubs that are created each year or chartered each year and then the other clubs that have been chartered and kind of the eboned flow. You have that interest for one year or two years and then it declines and then the club gets sunsetted because there is no interest. All of a sudden, two years later, "Hey, there is this kind of a club, I am interested." [00:17:19.263] I think it is very consistent in that way. I know the clubs that are active, consistently are active. The ones that we kind of know, that have the eboned flow and we expect it. You know, we expect it. I personally, on my end, what I do, I don’t see any major shifts in clubs. It is interested to see the ideas on the clubs that are created and the interest, you each year and some clubs where the interest it’s like, "Woah we can’t do that," so I think it’s all consistent how it ah plays out. Jd: Do you have a favorite event you like to go to? Kris: Well every year I try to go to an event I have never been before so I go to the circus club or I go to an acapella event. One of my favorites, and not because you are sitting in front of me, this happened a long time ago, it’s the fashion show. I love, and maybe it's because I know all the work you put into it, but then again, I love fashion. So it’s something that I am passionate about. [00:19:06.847] But, the other events I love going to, I love going to the culture dinners, love whether it be Hillel, Hayat, I love those dinners. I love the performance, the food. It expands my world. I also love going to sporting, I love watching the men’s hockey team. Love it. And I've been to the alpine ski races, absolutely love that as well. Jd: And those are a little bit further? Kris: Yes, I'll go up to gore mountain which is about an hour away. I’ve been there a couple of times, absolutely love those too, but I do try to go to, I've been to Comfiest. And. I’ve been to the outing club, they have the film screening I've done that. So, I try to spread it out, things I haven’t been to, Fun day? I'll show up if I have to. [00:20:20.870] No, I love fun day but, Jd: It can be a little hectic sometimes. Kris: I pop in, I pop in, say hello early enough and then I am usually out of there. Jd: A little bit pf a personal question, I really want to know the answer to. How has student fashion shifted since you've been here? �Kris: Oh! How has student fashion shifted? You know and this is amazing, and I do, I watch student fashion. I love seeing what the students wear. [00:21:00.870] I can’t mimic it, but I may throw in something a little age appropriate for myself every now and then. What I see is like the different styles from when I Jd: They are coming back. Kris: They are coming back! and I love it. One year I saw leg warmers and I’m like, "Wait that’s the 80's" Umm, I’ve seen the wide, the bell bottom pants. I love, and I am like oh gosh, I should have saved all those clothes. [00:21:32.190] Jd: There are a few pieces I took from my mom, she was going to throw them out. I was like no these are going to come back. I am going to keep these. Kris: As I go through my closet, I am like why did I give it up. But you know, but here is something I am very impressed by. I have been on other college campuses, most people in their Pajamas. Not at Skidmore. (Laughing) you know and its, students just love to, whether they mean to or not, they look great, and of course I miss my little hall way downstairs, like a little fashion, cause that’s you know, I love to dress uniquely. i know quite a few students who do. As a matter of fact, I ran into a student the other day and she was wearing these animal print booties and I am like oh my god. I have those booties, I am so cool. I think its Diane. I have the same booties as her, I wouldn’t wear them here, but that was so cool to me. Jd: Seeing the fashion here, is just, is incredible to see what people wear and how they put it together. And everyone has such a different style. Kris: Exactly, sometimes the same. There’s this joke, everyone at Skidmore dresses the same which is so true because me and tory have come in with the same outfit and we will take a picture. And it’s like, and again, and here is how the students inspire me. Because I am like, I love your headband. I’m like, "That might look good on me: so I go out and I’m like, let me try it. Here is my work, this is what I do day in and day out. It is just so amazing that I can take so much more away from this beautiful campus that we are on. And that’s why every day I am so grateful for my job, for what I do here, cause I love what I do, I love working with the students, I love bonding with the students, I love what I learn from students. And it’s like, sometimes, alright I am too happy. [00:24:29.375] Jd: I think that was a perfect ending to our interview. Usually for interviewing I have to let you speak, and we are so interactive, I have to stop my thoughts all the time and I want to say mmhmm. And I think I did a few in here. �Kris: But that’s okay because when we are interacting that brings out different, you know, thoughts in my head. I am like oh yeah, that’s what interviewing and talking is about Jd: Is there anything you like to mentioned that you feel like we haven’t covered or any last final thoughts? Kris: about what in particular? Jd: About anything Skidmore/Saratoga Community Kris: You know, again, I just feel very grateful. In my little world, I feel very grateful. Obviously, we are not without struggles, but I also see those struggles being addressed. And I am grateful for that as well because I’ve also seen in the past where they weren’t. I am glad to see that we are getting to a place where we are more conscious and moving ahead. That is great to see on this campus. The college itself, the students remain to be amazing. The one thing I have noticed about students though from when I first started there wasn’t a passion for a stance and now I feel like students, all group of students when they have a passion they are going for it. And that to me, and seriously, for years and years and years, we've talked about. "Why isn’t there passion" on campus like why isn’t everyone like, you know. Then all of sudden there, boom, and it’s become this snowball effect and that’s great. That’s part of the college experience, tis not only academic. Its finding your spirit, its finding your voice. [00:26:50.870] Its really important as well and I am so glad that a lot of students have found their voice and are pushing us forward. Jd: I think a lot of that also has to do with the growth of social media, where we are constantly connecting with people who might not have the same views as us. Makes us even more passionate about what we believe in. "Wait, but I believe this and I want to speak about this" and I think it triggers conversations in ways where before may have been closed into a space that not everyone had access to. Kris: That is true. That is very true, and it’s also learning, I think it’s a hard thing to do, but learning to appreciate someone else’s opinion and learning to respect someone else's opinion and respecting their opinion. [00:27:40.870] I think that’s such a hard thing, because you are like "No, you're wrong." Jd: And as soon as you hear something that you don’t agree with you want to respond, but the trick is to listen. I need to understand someone else’s point to be able to articulate mine. �Kris: And respect, that’s your perspective, that’s your view, that’s great, In my mind your wrong (laughing) [00:27:59.925] But I am not going to say that. So yeah, that’s the shift I see in students, just that compassion and passion and speaking up and moving forward. It is great to see. Jd: Thank you for allowing me to interview you and have this conversation. I really enjoyed it. Kris: Me too. Me too! That was great. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Location The location of the interview 3rd Floor of Case, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Add in subscription here Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 08/03/2018 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kris Leggiero Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource The date you did the interview. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project. Description An account of the resource Two to three sentences about the interview. Language A language of the resource Eng. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource De La Cruz, Jamerly, '18 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8d0b9143230256c97c3fbed06a4f374d.jpg ed01d954424e8d184307e264db8d3ce3 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c02ab030e3e9195f9e23127654e2546b.m4a 0bf25d81fb7629f9a9820e3562df5a9b https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/657f7b7b3ddb54cc266c51baa3734da1.pdf 3dc664538e36423b499fe2e46c9356c6 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Larry Ries Years at Skidmore: 1979 - 2004 Interviewer: Lynn Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: September 24, 2019 00:00:00 Header 00:00:30 Grew up poor, one of 9 children, in Kentucky; attended a Catholic high school in Wisconsin and graduated top of the class — “gave me a new lease on life.” 00:02:01 After HS, worked 2 years as migrant farm laborer, then attended a small Catholic college in Conesus, NY for 2 years until ran out of money, then moved home and finished English degree at Thomas Moore College in northern KY. 00:03:24 Next was awarded a teaching fellowship at Southern Illinois University; earned Masters in English. Then taught for 2 years in Italy at an international high school. 00:03:59 Returned to US and earned Doctorate in English at Southern Illinois University. 00:04:15 Family moved to Albany, where Ries taught English for 7 years at SUNY Albany, and then was an administrator for 2; wife worked reviewing doctoral programs for the NYS Ed dept. 00:05:25 During time at Albany wrote Wolf Masks, a book on contemporary British poetry. Despite publishing, didn’t get tenure, so after working administration, took advising position in 1979 in Skidmore’s prison program. Joe Bruchac was running it at that time. 00:06:00 Program at Great Meadows Correctional Facility was part of the University Without Walls (UWW), an external degree program originally funded by the Ford Foundation. 00:07:20 Originally the program offered both inmates and guards opportunity for 4-year degree. 00:08:12 Also was an on-campus element for paroled men who had done well in the program. 00:08:48 Combination of inmates & guards in same classes led to problems, so dropped guards. 00:09:18 Ries was also a lecturer on campus in the English department. 00:09:30 Ries led prison program from 1980 to 1985, then became Assistant Director of UWW. 00:10:23 Next became Director of the Skidmore Masters Program, another external degree program, though it did include an on-campus element. Ideal was 15 students; sometimes had 25. 00:13:07 Promoted to Skidmore grads and in Adirondack region (b/c few opportunities there). 00:15:03 Many factors led to end of program, including “a changing of the culture,” less focus on external programs, more on campus. Also, remote learning became more common; less need. 00:16:56 Loved teaching Liberals Studies 1 because of the wide range of reading and the opportunity to be educated and then to learn how to transfer that to students. 00:17:45 Working in the prison could sometimes be traumatic, being locked in with tough men. 00:19:30 Still, the men loved many teachers - eg. Betty Balevic, Helga Doblin — “they revered [Helga Doblin] because they never had good discipline before, they only had bad discipline so when someone did that for their betterment, they recognized that and they appreciated that.” 00:22:26 Once while Ries was teaching Death of a Salesman, “we were acting it out and …[one student] says, “But Pop don’t you understand, I’m a failure! I’m a failure!” and all the guys �started crying because it was their life all of a sudden you know, this sense of being a failure … it was such a moving moment.” 00:23:19 A difficult moment: when Skidmore financial support of prison teaching faculty wasn’t as strong as it could have been, considering Skidmore got PELL, TAP and HEOP money for it. 00:26:04 Recruited faculty by personal invitation and word of mouth from other faculty. 00:26:49 Even science courses were taught, although not with labs. 00:27:33 Received grant to bring computers into the prison; 1st program in NY to do that. 00:28:14 Some problems with faculty incl. inappropriate dress; not submitting grades on time. 00:31:40 Special experiences in the Masters program included working with elderly students, including Frank Crone, who did a thesis in religious studies and later funded a scholarship. 00:34:30 Students worked with a faculty advisor aligned with their area of study. 00:34:50 Sometimes hard for adult students who had other obligations, eg. a troubled child. 00:36:44 During initial on-campus seminar, students met with faculty advisor to design their program, which sometimes involved independent study credits, other times students would take classes at schools near them and apply transfer credits toward their Skidmore master’s degree. 00:38:06 Also added some evening classes for local students in the master’s program. 00:38:30 Different experiences than daytime classes, eg. taught “Growing Up In America” to seven women and one man; the man had been seeking his birth mother and found her during the course, and they “mothered” him and “it just worked beautifully as part of the course.” 00:39:31 The night courses allowed the students to “come and have actual discussions rather than work totally on their own and … that’s a better form of education usually than doing something completely independently.” 00:40:08 Enjoyed career at Skidmore, felt fortunate to have different positions and head a number of committees, “which gave me work with the wider community.” 00:40:35 One challenging one was the Benefits Committee, with which Ries had worked for a year to present recommendations that were challenged in one meeting; fortunately, President David Porter backed Ries up and it worked out. 00:43:15 One last memory from the prison program, interviewing one potential student, Robert Chambers, who “was just horrible, just terrible, and we rejected him and he sued the college, on the grounds of discrimination,” Fortunately, Chambers got transferred so suit declared moot. 00:45:23 END � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/fee65f9b6fb5bf9c3d8f1b3988a1ebb9.pdf 286d3ac9ad4b8869290b650a97e7ff47 PDF Text Text Interview with Larry Reis by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, September 24, 2019. LYNNE GELBER: Good Morning, this is Lynne Gelber interviewing Larry Reis, with technical assistance of Sue Bender. It is September 24th, 2019. So Good Morning Larry, nice to see you. LARRY REIS: Good Morning Lynne, good morning Sue. SUE BENDER: Good Morning Larry LG: Let’s start off by telling us a little bit where you grew up LR: Oh wow (chuckles) I grew up in Kentucky, one of nine children to a German Catholic family, South of the Ohio river not too far from Cincinnati, and we were very poor and when I was 12 years old I got sent to a Catholic seminary up in Wisconsin where I went for four years of high school, which kind of changed my life. LG: How did it change your life? LR: I got an education I was always in trouble as a child and I kinda found out for the first time that I was smart (chuckles) never knew that before, the nuns weren’t very good in the school where I was LG: In Kentucky? LR: In Kentucky, and so I graduated first in my class up there, so it just gave me a new lease on life LG: Was that a different culture? Going to Wisconsin? LR: (laughs) Totally, they made fun of me all the time LG: Because of your accent? LR: Because of my accent, the teachers made me stand up in class and pronounce words that they laughed at when I pronounced them, so it was a weird experience, but it was a good one overall �LG: So where did you continue your education? Did you do that right away? LR: Uh no, I became a migrant worker for two years because after high school, I couldn’t go back home. My father was an abusive alcoholic father who shouldn’t have had any kids, but he had nine and so it wasn’t a good environment. We had a two-bedroom house for eleven people um so I just started working whatever work I could get. So I picked potatoes, picked grapes, you know for $2 before I started going to college. LG: So how did you decide to go to college? LR: (laughs) I didn’t want to pick apples and grapes for the rest of my life um so I um started out in Western, NY. I was out picking the depth of potatoes, and grapes in south of Rochester. There was a little community college down there at the time, a Catholic college called St. Michael’s. I don’t think it’s there any more in Canesus, NY and I went two years there, ran out of money, went home and finished up at Thomas Moore College in Northern Kentucky, a very good, little private college in Northern Kentucky. LG: And from there, where did you go? LR: I went to Southern Illinois University, I got an assistantship - had no money still LG: What did you major in, in college? LR: English, um went to SIU, Southern Illinois University and had a teaching fellowship so I taught two courses and um, got my Masters in two years and then went to Italy to teach for two years, went to Rome and taught in Rome at an International High School for two years and then came back to Southern Illinois. In the meantime, I’d gotten married and had a child in Italy and then came back and got my Doctorate degree at Southern Illinois University in English LG: And what brought you to Skidmore? �LR: Well, I started as an Assistant Professor at SUNY Albany and I was there for 9 years LG: Did you get that job through the MLA? LR: Uh yes, actually it was because of the MLA. I was late that year and they couldn’t go to MLA because Albany got snowed in and that year, (that was the year they got a 30-inch snowfall and the airports were closed) and so they didn’t do their interviews at MLA that year, so they did them later, and I was in the market so they invited me to Albany. So I came up, they offered me a job in the English department and I taught there.- It was a terribly political place at the time. It was just horrible and my wife was reviewing doctoral programs at that time for State Ed and they took away the doctoral program in English at SUNY Albany (laughs) and that put me in a terribly awkward position so they didn’t give me tenure the year my book came out. Then they took me in administration though for two years. LG: What was your book on? LR: Contemporary British Poetry, Wolf Masks was the name of it. So, they did take me in administration for two years, but it just left a bad taste. So I wanted to get out of there and since my wife was working still in Albany at State Ed, we wanted to stay in the area because she had her career fully started and uh so Skidmore had a job opening for an advisor in the prison program and in ‘79 I came up and interviewed and was offered that job. LG: With whom did you interview? LR: Who? LG: Yes LR: Don McCormack, Bob VanMeter, and Joe Bruchac. LG: Okay, and Who was the? That was under the Office of Special Programs, right? �LR: Yes, uh huh when Mark Gelber was Dean LG: Okay and what was Don McCormack’s position at that point? LR: He was head of UWW LG: So, this was part of the University without Walls? LR: University without Walls and Joe Bruchac was running the prison program at that time, so I was hired to work under Joe Bruchac. SB: Larry, could you explain the prison program for folks that might not know about it? LR: Okay, as part of the University Without Walls, which was an external degree program originally funded by the Ford Foundation. Before I got here they had started a program at Great Meadows correctional facility which is in Comstock, New York and it was set up to offer inmates and guards at that time a four-year degree. And when it began they had guards and inmates in the same classrooms and Skidmore faculty would go up there five nights a week to teach a three hour class. One night they would teach one class for three hours and I don’t know how it was before I got here but once I got involved, we had five faculty members going up there five nights a week. It was a big group of faculty offering classes up there and it’s 45 miles away so it was a good trek for anybody to go up there to teach. And in addition to that program, which graduated quite a few students, there was an on-campus element of the program where men who had good records inside the prison and who had done well in the program up there would be paroled to Skidmore campus and they would live on Skidmore campus and complete their education here, and there were quite a few. When I first arrived, there were five men on campus at that time. LG: Was there a problem with the guards being in the same classroom as the �inmates? LR: Yes, so it was a big problem. It turned out that many of the inmates were brighter than some of the guards (laughs) and that caused quite a conflict and that program fell apart quite quickly so by the time I got here, it was only open to inmates LG: Alright, did you have other positions at Skidmore? LR: I was a lecturer in the English department as well LG: Okay, how long were you with the University without Walls? LR: The second year, they made me head of the prison program and I think I did that for five years and then… LG: And what years were those? Do you remember? LR: Well, I came in ’79 so I think in ’80 - ’81 I became head until ’85 I believe then in ’85, I became the Assistant Director of University Without Walls under Bob VanMeter. Don McCormack moved up to be Dean of Special Programs. Bob VanMeter moved up and they made me the Assistant Director, so I got out of jail finally (laughs) after 7 years and so um, then I stayed in that position until whenever we started the masters’ program and I’m not sure what year that was when we started the master’s program because I became the first Director of the masters’ program. LG: Explain a little bit that masters’ program please. LR: Okay, the masters’ program was built on the model of the University Without Walls, which was an external degree program for adult students. And for many years, there had been talk of doing a masters’ program at Skidmore and finally, it was put together by a faculty committee, of which Phyllis Roth was a member, plus a whole host of other people LG: Was Phyllis Dean of the Faculty at that point? �LR: Yes, uh-huh and they put it together, went through all the faculty channels, etc. through State Ed and it became a program. The difference from UWW is that we did have an on-campus element of it. When students began their program, they had to come to Skidmore for a week and take a week-long graduate seminar and I always thought of that as kind of a bar-raising element to see if students could actually do the kind of work that we were going to ask them to do. And they had a research paper to do as an element of that seminar and it was a good way to find out if they had the basic skills that you need to do graduate research. And we washed out maybe 30% of the students at that seminar. In other words, if they couldn’t do that kind of work, there was no way they were going to do it independently afterwards. LG: On average, how many students then would be in a seminar? LR: In the early years, we were almost (laughs) we were almost too successful. We had 20, 25 a couple of times. We wanted to have 15. We thought 15 was the ideal size but there was always pressure for enrollment around here and so if we got 25 (laughs), we would keep 25 and try to make it, but we did really well I know in the early years. I know after a while, they had more trouble filling those seminars. LG: Why was that do you think? LR: I don’t know, I don’t know um, I know we did a lot of advertising. I used to send letters out to alumni of Skidmore. I would send out letters because I thought some of them would like to get a masters’ degree from Skidmore and we did, we got quite a bit. Our first graduate of the masters’ program was someone who had graduated as an undergraduate from Skidmore. And we also advertised…. LG: Do you remember who that was? LR: Katie..oh, I can’t remember her last name, I think it was Katie (laughs) and she �worked with Jeff Segrave and sports psychology was what she was doing, her program. And we advertised extensively throughout the Adirondacks also because people up there didn’t have access to graduate programs, and we were successful in bringing people who had degrees but didn’t have any graduate degrees LG: And these were primarily liberal arts? LR: Yes, they had to be interdisciplinary liberal arts programs…I always thought the program was quite successful I thought especially it served women, the women who got dumped by their husbands after graduate school (laughs) after they worked to put their husbands through graduate school you know, and then the husbands would split. They got their careers started and then these women were left, they had gone to college, but they had nothing else. We had quite a few of them coming back to get their degrees so they could launch their own careers and I thought that was a great use of the program. LG: So, was it low enrollment that made the program disappear? LR: I think it was a whole lot of things including changing of the culture here at the college LG: Can you explain that a little bit? LR: I get this more second hand because I wasn’t here any longer LG: What year did you retire? LR: I retired, well, in 2000, I went on a phased retirement and I retired fully in 2004 and they had four or five directors after me of the masters’ program, but people told me that the college became more inward as time went on instead of out, just the way that UWW collapsed and the masters hung on for a few more years but then that… and the faculty seemed more inward centered I would say, rather than the external programs weren’t as important and maybe, there was a lot of competition in these areas too. When we �started UWW, we were one of the few programs that offered that kind of education and the same with the masters’ program when we started that. We were an exception and I think that as time went on more and more people especially with online learning could do it in a whole host of ways. You could go to SUNY Albany and do most of your work as an external student, so people didn’t need this kind of learning as much anymore either. So I think there are a lot of factors engaged in that plus money (laughs) which is a whole ‘nother issue. LG: what do you think were some of the outstanding moments for you in your career at Skidmore? LR: I enjoyed teaching in Liberal Studies, the original liberal studies program. I taught every semester in LS 1 and I just thought that was a terrific program. I felt that it educated me as well and it helped me learn in a way to transfer that to students and I just loved that. I thought that was terrific, I loved the wide range of reading. If I was a student (chuckles), I would have taken a course like that if they had had it when I was around, so that was it. Working in the prison program is traumatic, you go up there everyday like I did for five, years - six years and hear those bars clank behind you and you’re in there with men, many of them. Comstock is like… LG: A maximum security? LR: It’s a maxi max you know, it’s one of the worst prisons in New York state where Silent Sam was kept, people like that um, and it’s filled with hardened criminals and these are not nice men I mean they (chuckles), they are tough and there are times when you feel your life threatened. One time they had to sedate a man because I told him he had to take a Sociology course and he said I’m not gonna take one of those nigger courses. His father was killed in the New Jersey riots in the black riots and his father was killed there. He �was a big, huge stevedore, he worked on the docks. His arms were that big! And Danny, he told (me), —he was (laughs) an Irish guy with a high-pitched voice —and I said, “Danny, if you wanna get a degree, you gotta do your social sciences requirement.” And he’s like, “Mr. Reis, I’m not gonna do that,” and I said, “Well you don’t have to get a degree, that’s your choice but if you want the degree..” and he just went off, he went crazy, and then they came down and put a needle in him right away, because I don’t think anybody could have handled him if he really got going, and there were things like that, and you know, it was always tricky having women going into that environment. It was always….most of the time, it worked well. I mean Betty Balevic was such a trooper, she was such a… she went up there from Schenectady every semester LG: She was in the Business Department? LR: Yes LG: And what did she teach? LR: She taught Business Management and Betty would go up there every semester and she had to drive from Schenectady up there, which was a long way and the students loved her. Helga Doblin would go up there and the students loved her, they needed good discipline LG: What did Helga teach? LR: She taught Latin and Greek up there and one time (chuckles) I was up there, we have a little office and I see Helga marching down the corridor *boom,boom,boom*, the only way that Helga could do it and I rush out and I said, “Helga what’s wrong?” and she says, “I gave a man a bathroom pass,” it was like high school, they had a pass you know, and only one could leave at a time because with three-hour courses so everybody had to get out the door. And she says, “He’s been gone ten minutes!” and I said, “Oh, you �want me to go and check on him?” “No, I do that!” (chuckles) and she walks, I would never walk into a bathroom in a maximum-security prison. Helga marches in and then a minute later, she has this guy by the ear and she’s brining him back, “You come back to class!” and she brings him back. This guy was a triple murderer (chuckles) and they revered her because they never had good discipline before, they only had bad discipline so when someone did that for their betterment, they recognized that and they appreciated that so she was special that way so.... But the prison, working in the prison was a special time for me here. I think it took its toll over six years, it was very exhausting work and it was night-time work in addition to day-time work, plus I taught a course up there once every other semester. LG: In? LR: In Literature LG: In Poetry? LR: No, well I did teach poetry courses, but I tried to do the general literature you know, poetry, drama, and fiction LG: Was it an Introduction to American Lit or something like that? LR: It was kind of a hybrid course like an Introduction to Lit, but I remember teaching “Death of a Salesman” one time, and we were acting it out and the guys were playing the different roles and one (chuckles) one of the guys was playing Biff, the oldest son of Willy Loman and he says, “But Pop don’t you understand, I’m a failure! I’m a failure!” and all the guys started crying because it was their life all of a sudden you know, this sense of being a failure I mean, it was such a moving moment. I was tearing up but I didn’t want to (laughs) show them that. I was being moved but also the boy there. So it was really great moments like that. LG: What were the most difficult moments? �LR: (long pause) I think the sense that at times, as a prison program we were cut loose on our own and didn’t get the kind of support that we wanted LG: From the Faculty or from the Administration? LR: Both, both and Rick Rosenfeld was my assistant in the program for a while and when we taught up there we would get paid a stipend. We didn’t get paid much, I mean to begin with, I don’t think we ever got paid equivalent to what the faculty got paid so you know, we weren’t paid really well, so when we taught we would get paid $1500 or something like that back in those days and then Don decided that he didn’t think that we should get paid anymore that we should just do it as part of our regular work. So Rick and I decided to go on strike (laughs) and we said, “Well, okay then we’re just not gonna teach anymore in that case!” Why would we do that? You know you work all day doing administrative work, and then you gotta prepare a class and then you gotta go up and teach three hours and you gotta travel an hour to get there and an hour to get home, and you’re just dead! Why would you do that? So they backed off of that, but that kinda thing, I mean, that was kinda..and UWW was turning $100,000 back to the college every year in surplus money LG: And the money was coming from? LR: The prison program LG: State money? Or Federal money? LR: Well, they got Pell and TAP right, every student got a Pell and a TAP grant plus a HEOP grant so there were three sources of funding coming in for every student and you know, we paid our faculty, but there was a huge surplus every year, and we turned that all back to the college, so when they didn’t want to pay us (chuckles), that was like a slap in the face like that’s what I felt maybe when you say difficult, those kinds of things it’s like for �me it would have been a no brainer to say this staff is important in what they’re doing and we got all this money, let’s support them as well as we can, and that didn’t happen all the time. LG: How did you recruit faculty? LR: Personally, I went around and sat in people’s offices all the time and said listen, I got this program (chuckles) I’m trying to run and it’s exciting and I got a lot of faculty that do it, and I think you’d really enjoy doing it. Phyllis (Roth) did it for a semester. LG: Teaching? LR: I forget what she taught. Her field whatever, you know, area of literature she taught you know, but it was mainly personal salesmanship and I think word of mouth from other faculty. Faculty who did it, had good experiences, who talked to other people. LG: Were there any general science courses? LR: Yes, Dick Lindeman taught every semester, taught Geology all the time, who else did we have? LG: Figured field trips would be a problem LR: (laughs) Yeah, a big problem, but Ken Johnson taught up there also. We had a number of people who taught science courses up there. There was no lab, although, when he taught Geology, he would take a lot of samples up and everything but there is technically no lab. They wouldn’t let us do that, and we got a grant finally to bring computers into the prison. We were the first program in New York State to do that. There’s a grant from a foundation in New York City that Special Programs still gets $20,000 a year from them, and I think it goes towards the Jazz Institute and things like that now, but they supported us for many years with money that allowed us to put computers in the prison. That was a real step forward. �LG: Alright, are there any other moments or interactions with faculty that come to mind? Or Administration? LR: Um, I remember I had difficulties at time with faculty. I had a female faculty who refused to wear a bra in the prison (chuckles) and I said, I can’t let you go in anymore. I said that’s cruel and unusual to the men in there and she finally changed but it was so obvious you know, and one of our faculty members with the guys that came out of prison, she would seek them out for sexual activity… stuff is always difficult (chuckles) you know. You’re dealing with adults first of all, who really can do whatever they want, and yet you know it’s not in the best interest of the people that kind of thing. Our last payment to the faculty was always dependent on them handing in their grades, their final grades, and we had some guy in Economics who didn’t stay here and he simply refused to hand in his grades. This was when I was assistant director. Ken Klotz was then directing the prison program at that time, and I don’t know why he was doing this, but he wanted to be paid and Ken said, “Well, let’s pay him and maybe he’ll…” I said, “No, if he’s not gonna do it with good will now, he’s certainly not gonna do it with good will after he gets his money.” And I had a talk with the guy and I said, “This is their money that’s paid for their education and they deserve their grades. If you’re angry at the administrators or something, you can’t hold their grades (chuckles), cause they’ve earned that and they deserve that and they’ve paid for that with their TAP and Pell money.” And Mehmet got real angry with me one time too. Mehmet and I are close friends. LG: Mehmet Odekon in Economics? LR: Yeah in Economics, and Mehmet wanted me to take off that rule about holding the grades until you pay. He said because we’re professionals! And I said, “I know you’re professional but Mehmet, we still have problems with �getting grades out of people. This is the only hold I have to get the grades.” And he stormed out of my office and Mehmet didn’t talk to me for a year after that. We’re very close friends now (chuckles) but he thought I was just being stupid and a hard ass or something and he was a faculty and I was an administrator and he wasn’t gonna take that from an administrator, but that kind of interaction happened a lot. LG: I wanna go back to the Masters program and ask what were the most fruitful experiences in that program? LR: There were so many. We had an older gentleman, he died last year in fact, it was in his nineties, but Frank Crone was his name and he was a donor to the college. He sat on fifteen boards and he wanted to do a program in Religious Studies. He was an old, Jewish gentleman, who wanted to…he had a firm belief that if people could (chuckles) only understand that Christianity and Judaism are really the same thing, that they grew out of the same seed, and he actually wrote a book about this later on, about the book of James, which was one of the apocryphal gospels and he worked with Sheldon Solomon, whom he finally had a blow up with, and Joel Smith was his faculty advisor LG: In Philosophy? LR: Right, in Philosophy and Religion LG: And Sheldon in Psychology? LR: Yes, and Sheldon in Psychology and this guy did a wonderful program and then he funded a scholarship program for the Masters program afterwards and we named it after him. The Crone Scholarship so that was really nice to happen LG: And he got his degree? LR: And he got his degree, and he didn’t need it for anything. This was just pure, he needed guidance in how to approach the subject he wanted to do �LG: And what subject did he want to do? Do you remember? LR: It was just called Religious Studies, I think. You know, it was the overall Master of Liberal Arts in Religious Studies LG: And there was a final paper that they had to write, a thesis? LR: Yes, that’s what he did his paper on, Christianity and Judaism being the same thing. He worked with Phil West also a lot at that time.. He was in English, passed away my goodness, ten or fifteen years ago now, Phil. LG: Okay, any other interesting theses that came out of that? LR: Let me think back, that’s a long way to think back (laughs) There were so many good students and they worked really closely with the faculty which was really good. Every student had their faculty advisor from a department in which they worked. It was just exemplary the way it worked when it worked well. Like all external programs, I think there are times when it doesn’t work at all for a student. The student can’t get through his or her own motivation. I had a student who called me one time and said she had an adopted child from Russia and the child was psychotic, that it been in one of those orphanages. She said sorry, I just can’t find time to do any studies, I’ve got to take care of this child and I said, you really need to take time for yourself, don’t worry about your studies, you got more important things to do. There was this old, Jewish woman who came into the program, she was from Florida. And Rose must have been between 65 and 70 when she came to the program. She was the sweetest woman in the world. She volunteered for everything down there. If any committee or any social work unit needed help, Rose was there. She couldn’t do academic work and she came, and she did our seminar and I looked at her paper and it was just terrible. It broke my heart, but I made the phone call and I talked to her for about an hour and I told her how much I admired her that she didn’t need a degree to do all the �good work that she was doing, that she ought to continue doing everything she’s doing, and just forget about(chuckles) getting a masters degree, and it went well, much better than I thought it was going . I thought I was gonna wind up with this woman crying on the phone, but she finally thought that was the best advice. LG: Larry, it occurs to me, we haven’t said how that program works. There’s the initial seminar and then what? LR: Okay, and at that time they meet with a faculty adviser to set up kind of an ideal program so, if you want to do religious studies, you might take a course in the Bible etc. and then it was up to the student to find the resources for those courses now, one of the major resources is simply, go to a university near where you live and take a course and then have it transferred into Skidmore LG: And that would mean just presenting the transcript? LR: A transcript, official transcript. The second thing would be to do an independent study with a Skidmore faculty member. In other words, if there is material you wouldn’t find in a normal course, the faculty member would help you put that material together into a special course, an independent study, I’m sure the same way undergraduates do at times here LG: And the faculty would be reimbursed for that? LR: Yes, as well as for mentoring the student as the advisor. And the third thing we did, we started after a while, was to start evening classes on campus for local students cause we always have a cadre of maybe 30 students in the program who were roughly from the Albany, Saratoga area and so one night a week we would have a course in which students could come on campus and study. I remember teaching that course one time. I taught a course called Growing Up in America, and I had seven women and one man, and �the man was a man who taught in the music department at the time. He was a classical guitarist and during the course of that course, he was looking for his birth mother and he found her during the course and we were reading all this Growing up in America with “Huckleberry Finn” and all that literature we were reading at that time and the seven women just mothered him like (laughs) he was a lost child and he would come in and tell us where he was in this search and it just worked beautifully as part of the course. LG: And the purpose of that evening course was to build a sense of belonging? LR: Well, it had to fit into their individual programs first of all but it came from a place where they could come and have actual discussions rather than work totally on their own and as all of us know, that’s a better form of education usually than doing something completely independently LG: Is there anything else about your experience at Skidmore that you would like to share? LR: I had a very good career at Skidmore, I enjoyed myself immensely. I always felt like there was a lot of work to do and I was fortunate to be able to have over my career, four or five different positions and I also headed a number of committees while I was here also, which gave me work with the wider community LG: What committees? LR: Benefits committee, what else would I be on? Benefits stuck out because that’s the year we totally redid benefits for retirement at one point and working in the Karl Broekhuisen era and Steve Harren era was quite a challenge (chuckles) when you’re working with money, but we did and that was good LG: And who was president at the time? �LR: David Porter was president because I remember an incident when we had worked a year and we brought out these recommendations LG: On benefits? LR: On benefits and it went to Financial Policy and Planning committee and Karl changed it in one meeting after our year’s work and two faculty members came to tell me this and I was so angry, I kicked him out of my office. I called David Porter and I said, “You asked me to chair this committee and I said I did, and we did this” David intervened, and it got changed back. I was so angry at that time with what Carl did. LG: Do you want to share what the changes were? LR: I forget what they were LG: It was important at the time? LR: It important at the time. It was like the number of years of service you needed, the strange combination of years of service and age before you could retire and get benefits, medical benefits and you’re like tiptoeing through crocodiles working through all this. Pat Lee won’t talk to me either at that time, because we were giving benefits to families and she argued with me that it should only be the faculty members themselves and no one else and I said but our sense of community is different than that but it was that kind of thing so to work a year and try to come out with something then have it changed in a two hour meeting was like Oh” LG: So the impetus was mostly financial? LR: Of course, yeah LG: Anything else you wanna share with us? LR: No, one good thing as an interesting story is that, do you remember the preppy murderer in NYC, strangled a girl having sex in Central Park? His name was Robert Chambers, he applied to our program up at Comstock and I was �assistant director at that time, I wasn’t in charge of the program, but Don McCormack, he was dean at the time, he said, “I want you to go up and interview this guy because it’s gonna be a kind of a touchy interview,” so I went up and interviewed him and it was just, he was just horrible, just terrible, and we rejected him and he sued the college, on the grounds of discrimination, because we would let all these Blacks and Hispanics in the program, and he was like good White boy and he wasn’t gonna sit and take this. So for many weeks, I had to meet with the college lawyers about this cause I was being sued personally as well as the college being sued, and it was just about to go before the judge and he got in trouble and got transferred out and the judge declared his suit moot cause he wasn’t there anyway so we just dodged a bullet on that one (laughs), but that was a big case at the time, little anecdote but kind of interesting LG: Good, well I wanna thank you very much for taking your time to share all these reminiscences with us LR: Thank you, it was interesting LG: The walk down memory lane? LR: Well, you know, the memory isn’t always real accurate all the time so it’s kind of fun to go back and think about things like that LG: Okay, thanks LR: Thank you LG: It’s been a pleasure � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Larry Ries Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 45:24 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit March 29, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Larry Ries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 24, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Larry Ries came to Skidmore in 1979 after teaching and working in the administration for 9 years at SUNY-Albany. His initial job was as an advisor in the University Without Walls prison program at Great Meadows Correctional Facility. He later became Assistant Director of UWW and then the first Director of the Skidmore’s Masters’ program, which was based on the UWW experience but required an interdisciplinary approach to study. He also taught as a lecturer in the English Department and Liberal Studies I, required of all first year-students at Skidmore. In this interview he describes his circuitous route to obtaining his PhD and provides vivid accounts of his experiences in many roles at Skidmore. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Cornstock Correctional Facility David Porter Interdisciplinary Collaboration MALS Phyllis Roth UWW https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a29cee28316369a53c4847eb0c390ab7.jpg 05689b9a3157974c5b6bba595f93d46e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3ae6e456236033358e0607a638b5e450.mov 090298b5af9f87ede0effdeea0538580 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marques, Allison Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lauir Marques Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lauir Marques Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/19/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Larry talked about how moving as a young boy affected how he views his own identity and others identity. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource oral history Abstract A summary of the resource. This is an interview between a father and daughter, where they discuss his experience of moving from Brazil to the United States when he was still in grammar school. He moved in 1971, to Garfield, New Jersey with his mother and step-dad for the economic opportunity. They talk about his struggle of moving to a country without speaking or understanding the native language. He gained friends despite the language barrier and proved himself to his peers as someone who is intelligent. Since he moved at such a young age, his view of identity and nationality never became a central idea to how he defined himself or viewed others. He found himself transcending ethnic lines and able to connect with everyone, never finding the need to seek out those within the Brazilian community. assimilation bilingual Brasil Brazil family identity language Latinx migration oral history Phenotype https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e7dab351090afd4678110ac7287e69ad.png 990aabf62c6437ee549ffd5f2ae37fee https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/01100df398b2011ea8e43869e406baae.mp3 a5a1638e222e2326e0efba87ed8c63e7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/741e4635f544d36741ea40d4b40558c2.pdf d53727555a1b57c903bd2591255e9ac0 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/caf3ce928db5a10ace0bf5ab9740b8bb.pdf bc3acdd8895bea076fef2cbacbd2ec7b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Isabel M.R. Long Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lauren Roberts Location The location of the interview Saratoga County History Office Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Isabel M.R. Long Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 07/12/2019 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Isabel Long: My name is Isabel Long. Today is October 28th, it is approximately 2:35pm. I am in the Saratoga County History Office. I am here with Lauren Roberts and we've here to talk for the Saratoga Memory Project. Lauren, could you introduce yourself, please? Lauren Roberts: Yeah. My name is Lauren Roberts, and I am the Saratoga County Historian, and I am also a Skidmore alum. IL: Wonderful, thank you. So, just to get things going, what's your earliest memory of Saratoga Springs? LR: Hmmm. Well I grew up about an hour away from Saratoga Springs, so when I was young, we used to come to Saratoga to go to the racetrack and to shop downtown. I was born in 1982, so my memories would be probably from the early 90s of coming, coming to Saratoga. But that's primarily why we would come over here. I grew up in a pretty rural town, so Saratoga would have been one of the closest malls to shop in. But also, my family always went to the race track in the summer time, so we would come for that. IL: Could you describe where you grew up? LR: Sure! I grew up in the village of Northville, actually, let me say, I grew up in the town of North Hampton because I'm actually outside the village. But for all intents and purposes we all it, Northville, which is in Fulton County. And, ah, small town. I grew up in a – I grew up on several acres of land that used to be an old farm, the Simpson farm, which probably started in the late 1700s, so. I lived in a modern house that was built on the farm, but there were a lot of remnants in the woods around that you could tell that it used to be farm land. We had apple trees from the old orchard in our yard and I had a neighbor who was about the same age as I was and we would go in the woods and find old milk pails, and barbed wire fences, and pieces of ceramic in the old stream bed. So, it was a good place for someone who had a budding interest in local history, and I'm pretty sure that's why I was interested in local history. But also, the story of the great Sacandaga Lake was of interest to me because Northville sits on the Great Sacandaga lake and the lake was a man-made lake. It was flooded in 1930. They put a dam in, the Continental Dam to be able to control the flow of the Hudson River downstream, and to prevent flooding. So there were a lot of hamlets that were flooded out in order to do this and I became interested in that because in the fall, when the water levels went down, you could find lots of different artifacts along the shores of the beach: places we would hang out or go swimming, things like that. (3:25) And I went to a very small school. The name of the school is Northville Central School. It was K through twelve in one building. I graduated with about 60 kids in my graduating class. So, but I had a great, what I thought was, you know, a great elementary school and high school experience. I had some really great teachers. I grew up in a really – You know a lot of people will look on small town life as pretty nostalgic, and it has its pros and cons, but I had a pretty good, I had, what I consider, a really good time growing up in a small, rural town. IL: (4:10) Thank you. So, could you elaborate on what you mean by pros and cons. LR: I would say, you know– When you choose to live in a small town you know there are sacrifices that you have to make. I live in a small town now, so I would say commuting, to work, but maybe when I was younger some of the pros and cons is no public transportation. We rode our bikes everywhere. I lived outside of the village so, it was a couple miles to ride to school. No cellphones then, so, you know, we could use the pay-phone to have your mom come and pick you up in the village. (4:47) And you know, maybe there would be less programing offered in the school. Rather than having to play one sport, were people where cut for the team, you really needed all of your friends to go out for the team so you had enough people just to field a full team. I can remember, you know, kind of recruiting people for our sports teams so that we had enough people to fill the roaster. And, you know, I did everything I could. I was in the chorus, and I was in the band, and I was in drama, and I played all the sports. So, you really needed a lot of participation. (5:27) Most of the kids I went to school with I knew from the time I was probably pre-school age. And we grew up, you know, we were like a family. I don't want to make it sound perfect, you know, but that's – you know, it was pretty great, and we spent a lot of time outdoors, you know. We were in the southern Adirondacks there so, you know we lived on a lake. We did a lot of swimming. A lot of my friends – we had boats, beaches, a lot of four-wheelers, snowmobiles. We spent a lot of time hiking. We had trails- miles and miles of trails behind our houses that, you know, even before we were sixteen and had our licensees, we had different kinds of off-road vehicles. But we spent a lot of time outside. And like, you know we didn't have – yeah, we didn't have cell phones, we didn't have a lot of electronics, but I don't even think – I don't think I had cable until I was maybe a junior or senior in high school. We just had, like, the local channels. But it didn't matter, I was busy enough. I didn't have time for that anyway. And, you know, you can still see the way small towns pull together when you have, let's say, like a family has a tragedy like a house fire or someone passes away unexpectedly, and they don't have enough money for the funeral. You know, spaghetti dinners, and basket raffles, and all that kind of stuff the community seems to pull together for, so. Some of those things that I'd say are maybe cliché about small towns were really true about Northville. IL: Thank you. Could you help me understand how your trips to Saratoga fit into that for you. (7:15) LR: So we were about– in Northville, were about 45 minutes to an hour away from either Glens Falls or Saratoga. So doctor’s appointments, like I said like malls, things like that, those were kind of nearby. We played sports – we actually played Spa Catholic because we were a small school and they were a small school, so we would come over here. We played against them in softball, sometimes soccer I think too. So, you know, they weren't like major trips, they would just be – I think when you live in a rural area an hour trip is par for the course. You need to get, to get anywhere that has what you need, it's about an hour. IL: So, em, thank you. Help me understand the role the races played in your life at that point. (8:11) LR: Oh, it was just an entertainment kind of thing. My father's family came from Corinth, which was nearby, and my grandfather and some of his brothers used to really like horses. So, my father would go to the races, and we would go too. We were always backyard people, which is where you bring your own picnic and you sit on the picnic tables. You know, we weren't sitting in the club house but we were walking up to the fence in the paddock watching the horses be saddled before the races, that kind of thing. So, it was just sort of something we enjoyed. IL: Wonderful. So, thinking about, kind of, the next step for you. So, you – coming to Skidmore. Were you the first person in your family to go to college? Or – LR: Nope, both my parents went to college. My dad was actually an RPI engineer. And actually, I didn’t start out at Skidmore. When I was a senior in college [high school], I had planned to apply to several small liberal arts schools. I knew that's where I wanted to go. I applied to St. Lawrence University and they got back to me first because I applied early admit, and they offered me one of their presidential scholarships. And if I accepted their scholarship, I need to agree that I would not apply to any other schools. So, I decided to accept their scholarship, so I didn't apply, I didn't finish my application to Skidmore. So, I ended up, Freshman year I went to St. Lawrence, and it just wasn't a fit for me. There wasn't any one thing in particular except that – I should say I went with the intention of studying anthropology. That was what I wanted to major in. And I liked anthropology, but during that year I was kind of looking around at other programs and I heard about American Studies, which they didn't have at St. Lawrence, and Skidmore did have. And it was a– I thought it was a really intriguing program, and some of the other things, ah, St. Lawrence had a really big sports program, and I didn't play sports, so it wasn't something that was beneficial to me. The other thing I am really interested in is musical theater. I've been involved in musical theater my whole life. We have a – Sacandaga Musical Theater which is our home town musical theater company that I've been kind of a director for a long time, so St. Lawrence didn't really have that and Skidmore did have Cabaret Troupe which was a student run organization, which I really liked. Because I knew I wasn't going to have a career in musical theater, but I still wanted to be involved in it. So, I decided to apply to transfer to Skidmore, and I was accepted. So, I finished the year out at St. Lawrence, and then I started my sophomore year at Skidmore. Started out living in Moore [Hall], which is the old dorm that was downtown. And, my first week at Skidmore was when 9/11 happened. (11:33). So, I can still remember I was in Spanish class, in, ah, Tisch. I think it was Tisch. The first plane hit right before we went into class. And at that point we all thought it was an accident. And then when we left Spanish class, there was kind of like a little lounge area, and all the teachers were watching on TV, and at that point the second plane had hit and they knew it was no longer an accident. And I was on my way to one of my first Anthro classes with Professor [Gerry] Erchak, and we went in, and sat down, and everyone was kind of in shock, and he just said go home. And, ah, it was, ah, a shocking, you know it was shocking for everyone. I was kind of in a group of transfer students cause they put all of the transfer students in Moore for our first semester. I am not really sure why. Hm. But there were some transfer students from New York City who were obviously much more affected because they had family members very close to the city. And that afternoon, the president of Skidmore at the time was Jamie Studley, and they called a meeting on the green and I can remember – it was a beautiful day. Warm, sunny, and, you know just trying to figure out how to cope with what had happened and what was still unfolding that day. You know, it was really kind of – it was a terrible way to start my Skidmore experience, but at the same time watching students come together and comfort each other and not really knowing where we'd go from here and how our country was going to change because of this attack you know it was, um, maybe it was a little bit easier to have a community around you that, you know, we were all trying to figure it out together. (13:37) IL: That's sounds wonderful to have that Skidmore community in place. Thinking about that community, how would you define it during your time at Skidmore? Was this moment of 9/11 kind of one of those definitive pieces that you think exemplifies what it means to be part of the Skidmore community? (13:54) LR: I would say, you know, people coming together and thinking about larger context is a way to describe Skidmore. I guess I haven't really thought about my cumulative Skidmore experience. You know that's definitely one of the times that's like a picture in my memory, that I remember being at Skidmore. But there are lots of others also. I think like any time you have like a national traumatic event like that you remember where you were, what you were doing when that happened, and how you felt. But I don't know that it really– that it defined my whole experience there. Maybe it was a good starting point to know how the college was going to be able to bring people together to be able to react to, you know, a common grieving experience. But, you know, overall, my Skidmore experience was, was great. I had a lot of really great professors that I knew on an individual level. That I, you know, I think a lot of college students don't have that. Trying to remember – I had several professors where I actually visited their houses which is kind of a unique, or somewhat unique thing, for I would think, a college student to be able to go to their professor's home. To be welcomed, individually. You know, small class sizes. I was able to – One of the really cool things that Skidmore did was they offered – I was a work study student, and they offered a program where you could work for a local non-profit and Skidmore would pay you to work there. So, um, I – go ahead. IL: Sorry, could you define work-studies as you understand it. Just for the record. LR: So, I believe certain students are eligible to be able to work for– to pay for part of their education. So, they had programs where you could choose a nonprofit and then you would turn in your hours to Skidmore, and Skidmore paid you to work there. So, I choose to work at Saratoga Springs Historical Society, which is now called Saratoga Springs History Museum, which is at the casino at Congress Park. And of course, I lived in Moore for my first semester, so I could walk to the casino. And, ah, I was an intern there, and it was really great to be able to make a lot of connections downtown in the local history community. I was able to work with Jamie Parillo who was the director there, but also, they had a curator and they had someone who administered the Bolster Collection which is an important Saratoga Springs photography collection. So, I worked in the photograph collection, I cleaned exhibits, I helped send out mailings to the volunteers, to the membership list. I worked at their holiday gala, helping. I did research and wrote a panel for one of their exhibits. I got a lot of experience working at a small museum and knowing what it's like to have to wear the many hats that you do if you work for a nonprofit or a small museum, public historian. Ah, so, you know, I thought that, that was a really great thing. It really benefited the community and it benefited me as a student being able to get this experience and figure out what its really going to be like. Because I do think, you know, Skidmore – I don’t know if you still have this terminology, but what we called the Skidmore bubble, you know where people – it's a, it's different than reality when you are at Skidmore because there are really grand ideas. It's a really conducive place to think outside the box and then sometimes when you graduate and you go into nonprofits or small businesses, it’s not always, it doesn't always line up with the grand idea that you think you are going to be able to do. So, having that real-world experience and being, having Skidmore being able to pay for it, because the museum would never have been able to pay you to work. I thought that was a really great thing to do. Trying to think – I ah, after I left Moore, I was there for one semester then I moved to Scribner Village in a drama house. Actually, Cabaret Troupe had their own house. I don't know if they still do it this way but club could live together. You could apply for a house, like environmental – I don't know, I'm trying to think what the other clubs are. IL: Could you, um, explain what Scribner Village are. I am a bit confused. LR: So, Scribner was the old houses, I think they are all torn down now, but on the side of campus that was kind of on the Clinton Avenue side, I don't know if there is any left, but they were apartments, kind of like the ones, I can't remember what they are called now, Northwoods or something like that. IL: Oh, yes, uhm. LR: It was like that but way older and, like, not anywhere near as nice as those apartments. I mean it was like moldy and our pipes would freeze. They, ah, I mean it's a good thing they tore them down, it was not good. But, at the time you could apply to live in a house, especially if you had a common interest like a club. So, at that point I was involved in Cabaret Troupe which was the student-run musical theater organization. So, I lived with a bunch of kids that were in Cab Troup, and that was a lot of fun. Because we spent a lot of time at the theater, and Cab Troup didn't really have a home, I’m not sure if they do now, but we would use the Dance Theater as a performance space because we did a full musical in the fall semester and a full musical in the spring semester. Once I got, I think my junior and senior years the spring musical had to be in Falstaff’s. I think we did two shows there, maybe just one show. Because the dance theater – there wasn't enough – there was never enough performance space on campus. That was before you had Zankel. IL: Yeah. So, thinking about shifts then with Skidmore, I know you were there at a time of change for the president. You'd mentioned President Studley before; it's President Glotzbach's last year, so could you talk about that? Was that something that was, um, part of the campus consciousness at all? LR: I remember going to the ceremony when Glotzbach was inducted. But I don't know that really a – I can't remember anything specifically about it or, I don't remember being either concerned or excited about a change in presidency. I would guess that for your average student, things like who your roommate is going to be the next semester or am I going to change my major, or who's my advisor going to be, you know, those, what I'd say local level kind of changes matter much more in my consciousness than who the president of the univ– of the college was. IL: So then thinking about more local consciousness, could you talk about how you, what your relationship with the town was as a student, cause you were talking about living in Moore, and that is not something today Skidmore students experience. Could you expand? LR: Yeah, ah, I mean I – let me think. So, I didn't like living in Moore because you were far away from the rest of the campus. It was like one lone building in the middle of downtown. And especially because we were transfer students, um, you didn't really get the on-campus experience. You weren't, ah, you weren't really, you know like things that happened – There was a bus. There was a bus that ran at certain time that brought you back and forth. But I have a car there, but parking in Moore, there were like literally ten parking spaces and then you had to park on the street., which was hard to get a parking spot. So, it was not convenient to live in Moore even though I had a car. I would have much rather lived on campus because that was where all the events were happening. The one nice thing about being at Moore was because I worked for the Casino I could walk down there. But it was kind of tough not being on campus, especially as a transfer student. I transferred in my sophomore year. So, it was kind of like starting over. And they did kind of group us in with the freshmen a lot because we did have to do orientation and we did have to take out, not sure what you call it now, but LS1, LS2, do you have that? IL: No. LR: Liberal Studies one, it was like a freshman program that you had to take. They made us take it too as transfer students. So, ah, you know, I loved the community, but I think as far as being acclimated and being enveloped into the college community it was tough to be in Moore. So, I was only down there for one semester. But, you know, I think that the community, because I worked in the community, you know, I was able to form relationships with people that were downtown. The woman who was in charge of the Bolster collection at the time I was working at the casino, her name is MaryAnne Fitzgerald, she was a UWW– what's it called, yeah, University Without Walls? Do you still call it that? IL: Um, – can you elaborate? LR: There was a program for mostly adult students. Yeah, I'm thinking that's what it was called. IL: I think that was, but I'm not sure we have that anymore. LR: Okay. She was able to get her degree though Skidmore as an adult. So, she was a Skidmore alum and she had gone through the American studies program, but much later in her life. And she now serves as Saratoga Springs city historian. So, I work with her all the time now, but I was introduced to her as a Skidmore student and she was a Skidmore alum, so, you know I thought that the connection between Skidmore and the community was a good one. IL: Fantastic. Could you talk about what it was like to then go downtown once you were on campus and removed from that more. LR: Um, I was still downtown a lot. My, my junior and senior years, I worked for– I worked at the library. I was a student supervisor; I spent a lot more time on campus then and because I was working at the library. And I still – I had a job at home. I only lived an hour away. Working for the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. There was a camp ground on the lake, so I would actually drive home on the weekends as soon as the camp ground opened and work. But, I, I still went downtown all the time. I mean I had a lot of friends who lived Downtown. Cause once you get into upper classmen; they were all moving off campus and living in apartments downtown. So, I spent a lot of time downtown still. And I always loved downtown, um, you know, all the restaurants and shopping, and uh, trying to think. I think my sophomore year there was like a Skidmore community chorus, I don't know if they still do that, but it was members of Skidmore– Skidmore students and members of the community singing together in a chorus. We did that. IL: So then could you talk about how your relationship has changed with Skidmore now that you have graduated. LR: Sure. So, you know, I feel very grateful to Skidmore, I feel like I really got a great education there. I went on to get my masters right after I left Skidmore. I went to U Albany and got my master’s in public history and I started working right way for an archeologist. So I graduated in, May of '04, and in August I got a job working for Curtain Archeology, and the, the two owners of the company, Ed Curtain used to, he would teach – he wasn’t a professor there but he would teach archeology, I think, at Skidmore, and his partner Carry Nelson was a Skidmore alum. I actually got the job, well, I knew about the job because it came through the Skidmore career network, I don't know what you call it now, but I was able to get the notice that they were looking for a researcher. So, and my, I should say, I graduated with a dual degree in anthropology and American studies, so it was pretty awesome that I was able to get a job in my field right away after graduation cause when you get a degree in something like anthropology, the first thing people want to say is [effecting voice] you will never get a job in that! Why are you studying anthropology? Why aren't you in Business? Why aren't you a nurse? Why aren't you a teacher? [drops voice] But that wasn't what I wanted to do. So, I do feel lucky that I was able to find a job right away, in my field, and that job was in Saratoga Springs. They worked, it was cultural resource management, or CRM, so they worked mostly for developers who need to comply with New York State regulation in doing archeological surveys before developers or companies were allowed to build on, you know, mostly develop large sites. So. So I was able to get the job there, and um, I worked there for five years, and in the course of working there I spent a lot of time coming to this office. The Saratoga County Historian’s office, because of their collection here. I needed historic maps and census records, and things like that that weren't always online, so I spent several trips here. I got to be friends with the county historian, and then when this position came open, I left the archeology world to become a historian. And I’ve actually, I've been here for ten years. And I also feel lucky to have this job. It is a great job. And, you know, I've had a lot of interaction with Skidmore since I’ve graduated. I went back to see several of the Cabaret Troupe performances because by the time I was a senior, I was president of the organization. I had a lot of underclassmen that I was friends with and I continued to back. I've seen performances there. I still go back to the library. As an alumni you can use the library, so I still use the library. Any time that any of the professors have asked me to come back and speak about my role in public history, my career, any of that. I've spoken to American Studies classes, and history classes. I served on a panel about public history last year, ah, and actually I was able to get some help through Jordana [Dym] when I was making a documentary on the history of the Great Sacandaga Lake where I had some material – original material – that I was borrowing that Skidmore had the right equipment to be able to scan at a high resolution which I needed for the documentary, and they were able to use an intern to scan all those documents and return the originals to us. They were able to keep a digital copy of the information and I got one for my office and one for the regulating district who allowed me to use the documents. So, I mean I think, I think Skidmore is great for the community. I also serve on, what is sometimes called the Round Table, but is kind of a collaborative historical group that includes Skidmore and the museums in Saratoga Springs and Brookside, which is the county historical society, and my office. And we talk about where collections should go. I did a um – we all worked on a mapping exhibit together in 2015. 2015 was the centennial anniversary of Saratoga Springs becoming a city. We did a mapping through the hundred– through the centennial, I guess. [laugh] I can't remember what it was called but we all used different maps from our collections. And we, ah, were able to put up an exhibit at the casino showing the history of Saratoga Springs through mapping. And it was the Skidmore class that actually put it all together and we just gave our input. IL: Seems like there are a lot of joys in being the county historian. Can you speak to any of the challenges of practicing history in this area? LR: Absolutely. Funding. Funding is always an issue for historians because you are always competing with all the other departments in government. And everyone's always trying to keep the costs down, not raise taxes, um, so you're always scrambling for funding, for getting grants, things like that. We're lucky here in Saratoga county that our elected officials are very supportive of history. We use history as part of our economic tourism base. People are drawn here because we have a significant history, one that's well known. And not just the mineral waters, but there's the racetrack, and Saratoga Battlefield. There are lots of different kind of important events that centered around this area. So, I would say, you know, staffing. It would be great to have a bigger staff so that, you know, there's so much work that could be done here in the collections, in historical preservation, research, writing. There's lots to be done and not enough hours in the day to get it all done. So, you know, I think there's always going to be challenges but I think it's, um, I don't want to say easier, but – I think there's more support for the history community now than there has been in the past. And I think that's a good thing. We are moving in the right direction. IL: [33:53] Fantastic. So, um, one of the things I've understood about Saratoga in general is there has been kind of a historical – a movement for historical preservation. Is that something you feel is still ongoing? You said there's a lot of funding available, or a lot of interest in funding history at least. So, how – could you help me understand how that feeds into the tourism industry. LR: Sure. You know there's a lot of different groups that provide different kinds of historically experiences. Whether you're looking for a cemetery tour, or whether you are looking for genealogical information to find one of your ancestors, historic tours of the race track, visiting a museum. We have lots of different options here, and they all bring in tourist dollars. If they visit the museum, they're going to eat in town. If they're coming to the track, they're going to stay overnight in one of our hotels. If we are interested in our history, you know, people are going to come and see how did you preserve this building, how were you able to fund restoring this cemetery? And then people are more interested in passing on important history to you because they know, or they believe, you will be more able to care for that collection forever, in perpetuity. When you take something on, they want to know that you are going to be open and accessible to the public, and that you are going to continue on caring for the collection. I think the county has done a really good job. There are also several communities and towns and cities in Saratoga county that have historic preservation commissions. They all might call it something different. Historic buildings and structures committee, I think Saratoga Springs is called the Design Review Commission. [cough] Excuse me. So, you know, there are– even in the governments, there are plans and committees in place that are interested in preserving the history so that we don't just wipe out our pasts and start from scratch. And I think that's important. IL: Thank you. Um, so what have – you’ve been talking about your recent project with the Sacandaga Lake. Have there– is there anything you've found while being your time as county historian that you’ve found particularly exciting and that are, kind of, hidden pieces of this history? LR: I mean, I find something interesting every day. I love looking through old documents, you never know what you are going to find. Some of the interesting projects I've worked on – I mean, I think definitely that the Great Sacandaga Lake Project is nearest and dearest to my heart because that's where I grew up. I think that that story really needed to be told, and we told it from the perspective of the people who had to move. Whose land was claimed by eminent domain and they had to leave their homes. So, I think I'm probably most proud of that documentary which hopefully will be on PBS next year. [laughs] IL: Oh, congrats! LR: Thanks. So, there’s lots of other good projects I’ve worked on. I give a presentation about the county– the Homestead which is the Saratoga county Tuberculosis hospital that I think had a lot of myths around it, thank you, internet. And, um, [laughs from both] we were actually able to put together a really good collection. We had some good donations come from that because, you know, when you get the truth out about something – and it’s not always easy to do because a lot of times people don’t want their history debunked. They want to believe what they have always been told in the past. There’s always more clarity to be added to those stories. And we continue to do that, right? I mean this is not the defining moment of history. From twenty years from now there’s going to be more information to add to those stories also. So, I am not of the mind that you just are able to say well that's not true, this is the real story. There'll always be interpretation connected to the past. But you know a couple different county institutions that are able to get information out about – the other is the county court poor house. That's really important to our past and the way we treated people who didn't have the money or the means, or maybe the ethnicity that we valued at different points during our history. Right now, I'm actually co-hosting a podcast with a New York State Historian called "A New York Minute in History." I was actually at WAMC studio's today recording our script for that. That's Northeast Public Radio. So, you know, there's lots of different projects. And even here, just looking through documentation, I keep finding lots of really interesting cases all the time. And I get hundreds of inquires a year with people looking, either at their house histories, their property histories, a farm, genealogy absolutely. There's tons of questions about genealogy. Quaker history, all those different kinds of things like that. You know, there are small gems everyday that you are able to help people find or add to the collection, so. There is no typical day. It's different all the time, and I really like that and the county has given me a lot of support with being about to choose which direction I'm going day-to-day. And of course, 2020, we've got some pretty important anniversaries coming up including the centennial anniversary of the nineteenth amendment and women getting the right to vote. It's also the seventy-fifth anniversary of end of World War Two. We still have some WWII veterans alive here. Few, but some of them. But being able to celebrate that and their generation is really important too. IL: [40:40] So, thank you, that's very illuminative of your interaction I think with the broader county history. Can you talk about your interaction with Saratoga as a private citizen? So, do you go into town still, often? Do you– is it a less frequent thing, are you more over here in Ballston Spa, or with your family? How's that kind of evolved for you as time's gone on? LR: You mean Saratoga Springs, the city? IL: I mean, kind of generally I guess, yes. LR: Hmm, yeah, I still go to Saratoga Springs all the time. It's a great community. I am in Ballston Spa a lot, because that's where my office is. I still go back to Skidmore, and I still visit the track. Yeah, I mean Saratoga Springs is a great place, and I’m still very involved in some collaborative groups up there. As far as historic preservation, we actually have an oral history group that's lead up by Laurie Weese of the Saratoga Springs public library. She works in their Saratoga Room, which is their local history room. We're actually working on some collaborative oral history group projects, including digitizing what we already have in our collections, and hopefully soon, phase two will be adding more oral histories. So, yeah, absolutely, I'm still there all the time. IL: So, of course, this is part of an oral history, so that living memory. It's a very valuable part of how we understand things. Do you feel that the con– How– Let me rephrase that. How continuation of memory – How has that factored into your experience? LR: I'm not sure what you mean. IL: So the fact that there's institutions that have been set up to preserve memory, but then also working with people to capture, whether oral histories and thinking about sustaining these institutions as you were talking about having a place for people to deposit their histories. So that sort of continuation. LR: So, do I think it's important to continue capturing oral histories? IL: Mmm, more, how have you personally engaged with preserving memory beyond, ah, physical paper records? LR: So, yeah, I've done a few oral histories, and I do think they're important to take. I actually am working on a project right now. I have someone in my family, my grandfather, was one of five brothers form the same family who served in World War Two, and when I was at Skidmore, two of those brothers were still alive. And I took a class from Professor [David] Eyman, in History, about WWII, and my final paper was about these five brothers and their rolls in WWII. And I have their oral histories that I did when I was a Skidmore student that I have digitized and added to the collection here because they lived in Saratoga County. So, I think it's really important. We did lots of oral interviews for the film, The Great Sacandaga Lake. And we did both people who had their own memories and then we also did historians in the area who had collected information from other people. And then we also had some modern programs that are going on today, like invasive species stewards, people who check for water quality, things like that. So, you know I think it's really important to capture that, digitize it. And, you know, obviously you have to take– [paused] Marian Fitzgerald who’s the city historian always says we have to call them oral narratives, rather than oral histories because you're talking about someone's memory. You're not talking about a fact, a published fact of history, and sometimes they get it wrong. And I'm sure there are somethings in here that I'm getting wrong, but it’s what– it’s my narrative. So, that being said, I don't think it takes away from what those memories are and the including bias that you are getting as part of that interview– I think it changes, for instance, what pieces of the interview you include in the film or you'll include in whatever piece you're putting together. But I don't think that by any means that takes away from what those memories are. In fact, I think it adds more to what they believe was happening at the time, what their perception of that history is, or what it has become. Evolved. Because a lot of times, you know, we were asking people – we were asking someone who was in their nineties to remember what it was like when she was five years old. ... IL: So then to circle back a bit. So, one thing I am interested on hearing your perspective on is Cabaret Troupe. So, they've been struggling recently to have the number of members to make musicals. LR: Really. IL: Yeah. So, this is one of these on-going stories on the Skidmore campus. So, can you talk about what Cabaret Troupe was during your time. LR: Yeah, mmm. Cab Troupe– Cab Troupe was student run, which was different than the department. So, we didn't get credit for what we did. We always had to fight for performance space, we had to fight for a budget. And it was a ton of work. But there was really no other place to perform musicals because the department never did musicals, they did straight plays. And– but we pulled in, we had a lot of people, that– department kids that were also in Cab Troupe, and we usually had an orchestra that was taken from Skidmore's orchestra. [IL: Yeah.] A pit band, I should say, from the orchestra. So, we had other people that were not just musical theater geeks. But it was a ton of work that you didn't get credit for, but we did it because we loved doing it. And we – you know, we had to hire people for sound, and [laughs] and set construction. But I'm surprised to hear that because we always had a huge group of people. IL: So then could you elaborate on the relationships with the departments. So you said you had people from the orchestra and the theater, so this was kind of outside of the department, and just students who came in, or was this partly department, I’m going to say– not told to do, but the departments would kind of express support for. LR: I would say it was pretty separate because we were completely student run. We did have some, you know fighting for performance space was really tough because the dance theater– I mean, the dance department at Skidmore was really big, and they were, there were always other groups that wanted to be able to perform at the dance theater and we always ended up getting into conflicts with other groups because, I'm sure you know to put on a musical you need a lot of rehearsal time. And you have a set- [phone rings in background] Sorry. I'm going to wait till it’s over. IL: Okay. LR: So, we need a lot of rehearsals time there, and it was tough to fight for, and that's why I think my senior year we ended up coming to the compromise that we would have one musical at the dance theater and one at Falstaff’s. Because Falstaff’s was not an ideal performing space. In fact, in I think my senior year the heat broke there, and it was broken while we were rehearsing. We had to wear like hats and gloves and coats inside the building. It took forever to get the part they needed. Definitely less than ideal and we couldn't fit a lot of people in there. And we used to sell out most of our performances in the dance theater. So, I don't think the departments were against us, but it was difficult, we really had to work at being able to find our way and find support. I don't want to say there was anybody that wasn't supportive, and we did have help from the theater department at times. But we were really kind of our own entity. IL: Thank you. Um, so thinking then about, your experience with the American Studies Department. It seems like it was very formative for you. Could you talk more about what the program was while you were at Skidmore? LR: Yeah. I liked the interdisciplinary approach because I had a lot of different interests. And I think that probably goes back to growing up in a small school where you had to be involved in everything, to make it work, to have enough kids to participate or make a go of it. So, I had already said I was interested in anthropology. That's kind of how I started out my freshman year. So, I already had some classes in anthro, and then when I started with American Studies, I took an intro class with Professor Greg Pfitzer, and I just, I fell in love with the class. I thought it was just great. there were so many different aspects to it, and the idea that you could take classes in the history department, or women's studies, or English and have them count towards your American studies degree, I thought was a really innovative approach. And there were some students in my class that had – I can't remember what it was called – where you – self determined major. So, you know, it was, kind of Skidmore's idea that you didn't have to fit your studies into a box and have a single degree that said this is what I know how to do. But that you could in cooperate all these different pieces to fit into the puzzle of, you know, how you could be a well-rounded researcher. Because you know that's something that is very interdisciplinary. So, I just, I really liked the classes. We had a lot of decades classes. I don't know if they still do that, but I had one on the 1930s which was kind of like our methods class. I took one on the 1950s. And then senior year, the class that everybody wanted to take was the seminar on the 1960s with Professor Pfitzer. It just, you know – really understanding in our country where we came from. And when I was– when I was little, elementary school, I think probably fifth grade and seventh grade, my parents decided we were going to take these road trips. It used to be you had two weeks off at Easter instead of one week off for President's week and then one week for Easter, we had two weeks off at the same– put together. And, um, the first time we had a minivan. And I have a brother who’s two years older than me and my parents drove us across country, over two weeks, in the minivan. And we got to see all of these American history sites first hand. Things like the Indianapolis speedway, the St. Louis Arch, and the museum of westward expansion. Mount Rushmore, Custard's Last stand, intertwined, like, with Americana. Like the Corn Palace which is a building made completely out of corn. So, you know, there were all of these things. we did like a northern route the first time we went, and two years later we kind of like a southern route that include like Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico. And I really think that those trips and seeing what the country was like in all the different areas, ah was, really helped form what I was interested in as history goes. And I think taking those decades classes of, you know, what the country was going through, not just east coast, the whole country at different times. I think that was really formative in helping me figure out, you know, what is America? How did we get here? What is important about our past? How we place value on different things we've done, accomplished. Or maybe things we haven't done, or things that we want to sweep under the rug and not talk about. So, so I think American studies helps you explore that and come to terms with being an American and studying our past and, you know, I just– it was really a perfect, a really perfect fit for me. IL: That sounds amazing. Um, before we're get to the end here, is there anything we haven't discussed that you'd like to bring up? LR: Not that I can think of. I'll probably think of it you know ten minutes after. IL: Of course, of course. LR: That's how it works. [laughter] No, I think that's it. IL: Then is, ah, I'd like to just kind of reflect for a moment on, sort of, your journey, and it seems that Skidmore offered you a place to have a different way of thinking about things. How do you think that's a, kind of, been something that you've taken with you? LR: Hmm. I mean I think Skidmore really allows you to think not within a certain constructed box. And, you know, the idea of being interdisciplinary is something everyone can benefit from. And I think that's kind of been a theme through my life. You know, I'm thinking my senior seminar in American Studies, I dealt with reenactors, so, um, and kind of the bad rap they get, but also what they do to push historical study, historical interpretation. You know, places like colonial Williamsburg, or you know, or just pop-up reenactments, Civil War reenactments, things like that. And I think that probably reflects my interest in history with my love of performance, musical theater. So, I think– And that's something that I continue today. I'm still am– I co-direct drama club for my kids at school and I'm in musical theater all the time. But I also am still interested in local history– history on a local level, stories that haven't been told. So I think, you know it just allows you to develop those skills that– Here's Skidmore that’s like a really, I'd say, well-funded institution. They've got a lot of equipment and resources at their finger tips. They allowed me to work for a small museum that didn't have any of that. You got to see both sides of how that kind of works. And I'm somewhere in the middle, I guess, today. Cause I do– I'm employed the government, but I, you know I do a historian's job. So, I guess maybe it gave me confidence that it can be done. You can find a middle-ground, and you can pull from different areas of your interest, and um, and your talents to be able to make whatever that journey is that you're on to try– to make it work, to make it successful, and accomplish whatever it is you set out to do. IL: Thank you. I've just one quick thing you've mentioned, and I'd just like to elaborate on quickly. You mentioned that you co-direct for your children's elementary school. Could you help me understand what your kind of being a parent in the community is like? LR: Sure, so I actually live in Edinburgh, which is a tiny little town on the Great Sacandaga Lake. It's within Saratoga County, but it's ten minutes from where I grew up. So, my kids, I have a nine-year-old son and a seven-year-old daughter, and my kids go to a very small school, only pre-K through six, and my son has like nine kids in his grade, and my daughter does too. So, I am able to help co-direct their drama club that was started just a few years ago in their elementary school. So, it's just kind of giving back to the community, letting the kids have the same kind of opportunity I did when I was little, to be able to perform. And hopefully instill a love of theater in them too. IL: Wonderful. Thank you very much and thank you for agreeing to do this interview with me. It's been really wonderful talking with you Lauren. LR: You're welcome, thank you. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MP3 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:41 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 44.1 kHz Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 00:00:00 Header 00:00:51 " used to come to Saratoga to go to the racetrack" 00:01:28 Grew up in Northville 00:02:40 budding interest in local history from exploring as a child 00:02:46 Great Sacandaga Lake 00:03:23 School growing up 00:04:12 Life in a small town 00:07:13 Trips around the area 00:08:10 Races at 00:08:56 going to college, first St. Lawrence, then transferring to Skidmore 00:10:41 musical theater 00:11:30 Experiencing 9/11 at Skidmore College 00:13:52 Reflection on the Skidmore community. 00:15:52 Work-studies 00:17:36 " and knowing what it's like to have to wear the many hats that you do if you work for a nonprofit or a small museum, public historian" 00:19:02 old Scribner village 00:20:09 Cabaret Troupe 00:21:12 Glotzbach's induction was not especially significant to the students 00:22:11 Living in Moore away from campus in town with other transfer students. 00:24:33 University Without Walls 00:25:35 Work 00:26:45 Community Chorus 00:27:03 Post-grad 00:31:21 The Round Table discussions in Saratoga county about history. 00:32:22 Funding of history in the area. 00:34:22 Historical tourism in Saratoga. 00:38:18 Practice of history 00:40:58 Still come to Saratoga Springs and Skidmore, as well as being part of a historic preservation group. 00:41:32 "Collaborative oral history group projects" between the Saratoga Library and the county. 00:42:44 "I've done a couple oral histories" as an interviewer. How she personally is engaging with oral history, including oral histories done as a Skidmore student. 00:45:36 Defining Cabaret Troupe her time at Skidmore. 00:47:34 Departments and Cabaret Troupe "pretty separate." Eventually compromising on fighting for space by using Falstaff's. 00:49:36 Liked the "interdisciplinary approach" of American Studies. 00:50:41 Self-determined major "Skidmore's idea that you didn't have to fit your studies into a box." 00:51:16 "Decades classes" on each decade of US history. 00:51:45 Family road trips when she was little, seeing sites of American history and American. "seeing what the country was like in all the different areas." Shaped her interest in history. 00:53:54 American studies "helps you come to terms with being an American and studying our past." 00:55:00 "Skidmore allows you to think not within a certain constructed box." 00:55:27 Senior seminar in American studies "dealt with reenactors." 00:56:08 "I co-direct drama club for my kids' at school," and her application of things she was involved in at Skidmore in her life now. 00:56:36 Experience while at Skidmore prepared her for job today and reflecting on the journey. 00:57:40 Being a parent in her community and doing drama for her children's school. 00:58:41 END Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lauren Roberts Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 28, 2019 Language A language of the resource Eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Isabel Long, '21 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lauren Roberts https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8db67e735ff753e96e7bbc28ace65b63.jpg b4a9ca3abcd43e8f7239d974c092d082 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/07afd8a62bb886b06666e165efa855b8.pdf c85cab8a986d433b9e431a08a5b79cff PDF Text Text Lawrence Opitz Interview Josh Karen: This is Professor Larry Opitz, professor of theater at Skidmore College, and founder of the Saratoga Shakespeare Company. So first, how did you get involved in the Saratoga and Skidmore communities? Lary Opitz: As far as the Saratoga community goes, it's kind of interesting. I came to Saratoga when I was 26, married and from New York, and I came here ostensibly to spend one year back in 1974. That was the plan because after doing a lot of freelancing in New York in the theater here was this opportunity to get out of New York for a year, make a decent salary where they pay me every two weeks and then come back to New York and go back to work. Ummm the other motivation was a friend was offered a job here or an acquaintance was offered a job here in the theater department and he interviewed, came back to New York and told me you gotta go up there, forget about the job, you gotta see this town, it's beautiful, beautiful Victorian architecture, tree-lined wide boulevards, and they'll take good care of you, they'll wine and dine you for the weekend. So I said "what the hell?". So I came up here. Pouring rain, everything was rushed, they wound up offering me a job. And I didn't make a decision, because Barbara, [his wife], wasn't with me, and I wanted to talk to my friend, to see if either of us or both of us really wanted to come up here. Umm, so. Needless to say, we did. I don't know that for many many years I felt much of a connection to the community of Saratoga. I thought of myself, and in some ways still do think of myself as a New Yorker, meaning New York City. Umm still had a lot of family in New York, went down regularly, a lot of my work was in New York, I would travel back and forth all the time. This was where I worked, but, and here's the tension, I was part of the Skidmore community, and I'll talk about that specifically in a moment, but there was very little connection to the Saratoga community. And through the years, I spent a lotta time traveling, when I was a lighting designer, so, even though I had two kids up here, born in '76 and '79, I wasn't that connected with their lives in school, as activities went, because I was so often away, and Barbara was in charge of that. So I didn't feel any strong connection to the community. That didn't change very much for many many years, I wasn't a member of any organization, I think that so what became important was that six or seven years after we had already lived here, we did join what was then, what still is called the Jewish community center, which was uh then an Orthodox congregation. We did it because it was time for the kids to start religious studies, and we had two choices: we had a lot of friends who were members of the reform congregation, we didn't know anybody who was orthodox, we went in and we wound up joining there, and became very involved very quickly, and that was our community. If it wasn't family, it was the Jewish Community Center. So all community activities were focused there really. Ummm I became active in terms of serving on the board, eventually becoming �president, built a new building, and all of those relate to the community, but not the community at large. One thing that changed that was probably some time in the 80's, joining the local chapter of NAACP, but not getting too involved, and again, not a whole lot of things I'd call community involvement. We lived in a very, we still live in a very neat neighborhood, on the east side, and within a two, three block radius, there were a lot of families with kids our age, kids the age of our kids. So that was sort of a tiny little community. In 2000, I was a founding member of Saratoga Shakespeare Company. That tied me into the community more than anything else had to date, and continued working with Saratoga Shakespeare, and people in town knew me from that, from my performances every summer, and then eventually, about six years ago, Barbara and I took over the company, and we have absolutely necessarily, by force, had to become more intimate with the Greater Saratoga community, because we needed to raise money. And again, we see 6,000 people every summer, many of whom are Saratogians, and so we've become very connected with things that we had never been connected with before. But that's, that's been, you know the past 43, 44 years in terms of the community of Saratoga. Skidmore is very different, but even there it's kind of weird. I came up here as a staff member, not a faculty member, though I started teaching immediately, as a lecturer I guess, and I spent a few years here, and all that mattered was the theater, I wasn't involved in campus events very much. What's interesting is that at that time, I was only six years, seven years older than most of my students, the drinking age was 18, there was no stigma at all attached with hanging out with students at parties and drinking, things were very different then, and there was a lot of partying in the theater department. But it was all about the theater and the work in the theater, and theater students and theater faculty. I had no connection with the rest of the campus, other than the occasional friendship that would pop up either because of our kids or just encounters. In, somewhere in 19-, in the late 70's, I was going to leave here for another job, Boston University, that I'd been offered. Decided to stay partially because they offered me a real academic title, and I became an assistant professor with a nice salary raise, and decided to stay, and that meant I had to be more of a community member. Ummm. It took me a long time in the theater department, in meetings, in the theater department, when I was 26, to really participate and voice my opinions. Then I had the challenge of being a faculty member at large at faculty meetings, and speaking up, speaking my opinions in front of the entire faculty. But that was my responsibility, if I wanted to stay here, the goal would be to get tenure. At that time, tenure was not attached to a promotion, now it is. When you're automatically an associate professor, back then, you could get tenure and then you had to go for promotion. So if I wanted to keep my job, and if I wanted to grow in the job, I'd have to be more connected to the community, the college community, which meant serving on college committees, which is doing service for the faculty, but in the process of doing that, you're meeting new faculty members, and developing new relationships. Governance started �becoming more important to me, and standing up and speaking my mind in faculty meetings became very important to me, and I was developing as something of a leader and something of an impassioned speaker, because I am an actor, meanwhile I was taking leadership in the Jewish Community Center, taking leadership in the department in my first term as chair, so I started taking more leadership in the faculty at large, meeting more people, developing more relationships, developing relationships with administrators, and that led to two of my most important, my most important service as a faculty member, which was serving on CAPT, which was the committee on appointments, promotions, and tenure, which has always been considered the senior activity, and I've been on that for two full terms and I was chair of it, and that put me on a position where I had to take a tremendous amount of leadership, because we're not just involved in those decisions, the administration has always dealt with CAPT for other all college issues. When I took over the chair in my last term, which lasted ten years, I had to put all the focus back into the theater department and continue to function as a full faculty member participating in meetings, but most of my service, in recent years, has been in the theater department. That pretty much covers it. JK: So, going back to getting involved in the Skidmore community, over the years that you've been involved in it since you moved up here, how have you seen the community develop and change and what kind of trends have you seen go through it? LO: Yeah, uh, (laughs) some things have changed for the better, and some for the worse, and when we talk about change on campus, we're talking about three different things in my mind: one is changes in the student body, changes in the faculty, and changes in the administration. Umm... I think our students have gotten stronger academically over the years, and that's partially because we've become more selective, partially because I think Skidmore has improved over the years in its offerings and its commitment to education. So, I think there is strength there in students because 40 years ago, 30 years ago, I found our students far more independent and uhh- independent meaning largely independent of the will of their parents, and there was no such phenomenon as helicopter parents, today I'm dealing with students who seem incapable or unwilling to make a decision without calling home almost every day, if not every day. Those two things, there's a tension there, remarkable change. And I've seen it in the theater too, that um, there was a period, 20 years ago, 15 years ago where rarely would I pick up the New York Times and not see something that one of our students was doing. Now in the past 5 years, that's fallen off a bit, our students are going out and forming their own theater companies, more than they have in the last 10 years. Again, that has to do in part with independence, and taking control of your own life. In the faculty, the, there was a greater sense of independence and strength in the faculty, 40 years ago, 30 years ago than �there is now. There was always a tension between the will of the faculty and the goals of the administration. Now we all were pulling for Skidmore to be the best possible place, but that meant different things in different times to different, to the faculty and the administration. And I felt that there was much more independent thinking on the part of faculty years ago, now it seems that young faculty straight out of PhD programs are concerned primarily with getting tenure, obviously always an issue, but it seems to be the foremost though upon getting here, "what do I have to do to get tenure in six years, seven years", and there's a tendency, in part because of that, to be less confrontational with the administration, to stand up for things, principles when there's disagreement with the administration. So, I think the faculty in general have gotten more sheepish, more willing to deal with the administration as, as, as, as parents, and taking less responsibility for leadership. And in the part of administration over the years, what I've seen, and this is not unusual, it's every college, is what's typically called administrative bloat, where the size of the faculty has only in recent years grown in considerable ways, but nothing compared with the explosion in the size of the administration. Things that were done by two or three people, 30 years ago, now are done by 8 people. Everybody's got an assistant. The work has not... in some areas the work has grown, computers, library, external forces like the demands for assessment have required us to expand administration in various ways, but in general, it just, and as a result of that in part is ore turnover than there ever used to be, 30 years ago 40 years ago, if I needed to borrow a truck from the campus, I'd call up a friend who ran the motor pool, or whatever we called it then, the physical plant, I'd say "Jerry, I need a truck for the weekend, any problems?" "No, pick it up whenever you want!". Now, first of all, now the policy has ended. A few years ago, I would have had to go through a ridiculous amount of rigmarole, now some of that's external, insurance, stuff like that, but, you used to pick up a phone, call somebody and get the person on the phone, not an answering machine, a person who you knew by their first name, and you helped one another. Now, the phone won't be answered, you'll get a machine more often than not, you're calling a person to deal with a problem and you don't know who that person is because they've replaced the last two people since you knew the person, so it's become a less personable place to be, and I have regrets for that, it used to be much more, it used to be much smaller and more of a family, and I miss that. That seems to be at odds with that I was saying about my connection to the community, to the college community, but I was differentiating between you know my job as a professor as opposed to my life in the community and you know, you just knew everybody, and yeah we talked about secretaries then, not administrative assistants, but you knew most of them, and they spent many years here, their families grew up here, they had relatives in the area, they retired here, and those days are long gone, and this is part of society, we've become more mobile, so we move around a lot more, we change jobs a lot more than people used to. But the result of that is, there's a breakdown in community. �JK: And on that note, do you think the general identity throughout Skidmore and its community has shifted over the years or changed in any way since when you first got here? LO: Yeah, again, both good and bad, I think we've become more socially conscious, as has higher education in general, and that's a good thing, but I feel less connected with students, and maybe that's partially because of age, I feel less connected than I used to. As far as the Saratoga community goes, it's grown, but not outrageously. What's changed more than anything else in the demographics is the influx of ummm people who've- this always was something of a bedroom community for Albany, so you had a lot of people whose lives were in Albany but wanted to live further away. About 30 years ago, these multimillion dollar housing developments started popping up around, we started getting people who spent half their week in New York City and half the week up here, so 30 years ago, I'd go out to a restaurant, and we eat out a lot, and I'd know everybody, inconceivable not to see people, know the waiters well, know the owners well, well there's turn over in business too, and, but what's astounding is I go to restaurants now and it's not that often I know people there, who are dining there, that, that affects me, it's changed things, even people on the street, don't see people on the street as often, people that I know as often when I'm walking downtown. And then the most recent phenomenon in town is all of the condos that have gone up, multimillion dollar condos, you know, a twobedroom condo for 1.5 million in Saratoga Springs, just who are these people? Um. So, the community has changed primarily I think because of that, uh thankfully downtown has maintained its identity, and that's a terribly important part of downtown. Summers in Saratoga have always been bizarre, because of the track, because of SPAC, for the past 18 years Saratoga Shakespeare has had its effect in town, the balletamens who come up here, the Touts from New York who come to vacation, who spend their lives at Aquaduct and Belmont and come up here for a week or two in the summer, the owners, unlike you know other tracks, the owners come up here for the season, we have the track hands, who are largely Hispanic, who have their lives in the community, we have the Hassidic Jews who come up here in the summer still on war reparations from Germany, its bizarre! � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/49e05830d484d6edb33e694c02ba61a5.MP3 fb2a9230e4a675d971cfc37c7d723cbf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lawrence Opitz Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/28/18 Description An account of the resource Interview with Professor Lawrence Opitz, professor of theater at Skidmore College, and founder of the Saratoga Shakespeare Company. He came to Saratoga from New York City in 1974. Language A language of the resource Eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karen, Joshua, '18 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/da56e949f889517d4697787f6e4605f2.jpg b902573a8f67163804d0536c7a8ffb6f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6c4f648525e3a50121486853ff505ee1.mp3 d48a7e530579e7e2f4a2a873d173eb39 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/98996c034871adb0fa707abd363b6a91.pdf b9f9aa804e731dec9390d22996127377 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d87cc8b64e262cad9fe86eea1157a189.pdf d7e0ddb9888aabb0ce7ac144ea3e783e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Renato Dornelas (Class of 2018) Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leo Geoffrion Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit November 5, 2018 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:07:45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leo Geoffrion Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 26, 2016 Language A language of the resource English (en) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Leo Geoffrion joined Skidmore’s Information Technology staff in 1982 at a time when computer usage at the college was limited and its support staff quite small. Over the next 22 years Geoffrion oversaw the development of academic computing and functioned as the College’s webmaster.  In this interview, he describes the evolution of the College’s information technology infrastructure, as well as his work guiding and collaborating with faculty in the introduction of personal computing, the use of email, and computing across the curriculum. After his retirement in 2002, Geoffrion used his web skills to support the work of local community service organizations.   biology Code Blue Eric Weller Friends of Saratoga Springs Library J. Erik Jonsson Library Collaboration Media Services Technology in Education World Wide Web https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/006f6146d6cbe2e1072e5168ea2ecdc5.jpg 6c660fc9c717b46a85cfead79ed99466 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/307aa7ae22cc5c820c973f23260465b0.m4a 8eeba3958dc15d004b318073fbad2bf1 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/34e15cf6251afbe5876ba5a50e54cb0e.pdf dd01159a5491494176ff3478eb1ebce7 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Lisa Aronson Years at Skidmore: 32 (1984 - 2016) Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: November 7, 2022 00:00:00 Header 00:00:24 Born 1946 in Detroit, MI; raised there & did undergrad in Art History at Wayne State U, then in 1971 attended Indiana University in Bloomington, IN, for graduate work 00:01:00 Worked various jobs in NYC for 2 years, then traveled in Europe for nearly a year 00:01:30 Aunt, Cyril Miles, was artist in Detroit - very supportive & influential 00:03:21 While writing dissertation taught part-time at Wayne State (in Detroit); first tenure track teaching job was at U of Wisconsin in Stevens Point (3 yrs) 00:03:46 Sought teaching position that was better aligned with areas of expertise (African, preColumbian & Oceanic art); began teaching at Skidmore fall 1984 00:04:10 Interest in Africa stemmed in part from Aunt’s interest in textiles; also, African American studies programs were beginning to be formed on campuses, so it was a viable field 00:05:00 Loved working with Africans, their kindness & receptivity; still many connections 00:05:45 Dissertation: why identical patterns found in different parts of Africa? Ans: Trade & people “taking in these textiles and making them their own … assigning meaning” 00:07:28 Spring 1984 interviewed at College Art Association and then on Skidmore campus 00:08:36 Was hired at Skidmore because of expertise in Africa - replaced previous professor 00:09:34 African art was often combined w/ other areas, “wastebasket definition of art history” 00:10:05 Also taught Western art history survey & even Native American art - stretched too far 00:11:02 African art no longer part of Skidmore art history curriculum 00:11:25 When arrived at Skidmore, Art History & Studio Art were one department 00:12:00 Split b/c different disciplines. Art History akin to Humanities, Anthropology, Religion 00:13:52 The issues dealt with, and the questions explored, were very different from Studio art 00:15:12 Tang Museum a high point; involved with planning committee, later exhibitions, etc. 00:15:30 Committee members visited museums on other campuses, asked questions about exhibition space, storage space, staffing requirements; 00:17:01 Another consideration - what art in Tang collection? How the space would be used? 00:18:25 Instrumental in getting African materials added to Tang collection and in Tang shows 00:18:50 Supported student curated exhibitions of African art, visited Peabody Museum (Boston) with students to negotiate borrowing pieces 00:20:35 Curated exhibition of African Art and the Environment with Tang director John Weber 00:24:01 Served on many committees, including Curriculum (chaired 3 years) & UWW 00:24:39 Enjoyed working with UWW students; especially loved teaching seminar connected to African Art and the Environment exhibition; students more mature, interested, willing to work 00:26:50 Taught classes in Africa through Parsons School of Design. Became better at French �00:28:19 Led Textile Society of America tour to Ghana to study textiles 00:28:56 Skidmore always supportive, paid for travel to present papers, do research, etc. 00:29:52 Some particularly supportive individuals to note: Phyllis Roth, Sue Bender, 00:30:10 For example, Aronson and a colleague received Getty grant for project/book on Nigerian photographer, and Skidmore provided funds for travel to Nigeria during Aronson’s sabbatical 00:31:20 Retired 2016, now writing book about anarchist grandmother, involves much research 00:32:45 Will give paper related to African textiles at conference this spring 00:33:46 Also volunteers at Saratoga Springs Public Library’s used book store 00:34:48 African textiles is a unique field, a non-Western field; a non-Western course requirement was added to the curriculum, so got non-art students; I enjoyed teaching that perspective to them 00:36:10 There was a point when some on campus wanted to eliminate the non-Western requirement, questioned the terminology, whether there were really two viable categories 00:37:17 “I always felt that it was a way to allow students to broaden their understanding of the world and of themselves within the world, to be seen that other cultures handle things very differently than we do.” 00:38:27 Skidmore has a growing number of students from non-Western backgrounds; Taught some students from African countries who hadn’t had a course on African art 00:38:50 Some awkwardness in being Western White woman teaching non-Western topics; eg. when teaching about Native American Ghost Dance, a messy classroom conversation arose 00:39:53 When Harvard’s Henry Louis Gates, Jr. spoke at Skidmore, he noted “You don’t have to be African or Black to teach African art.” 00:40:33 Indiana U had an African Studies program & an African American Studies program; it was mostly White people in African program and Black people in African American program. 00:42:00 “I’ve always felt very fortunate to be at Skidmore” because Skidmore is so supportive of faculty. Even in retirement, funding the retiree program that enable faculty to continue to connect and learn 00:42:56 END � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e975fe5264ed50b12f8096004398c929.pdf c677e01541c2f4186b9ba11dde258a70 PDF Text Text Interview with Lisa Aronson by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, November 7, 2022. LYNNE GELBER: It’s November 7th, 2022, and I’m here with Lisa Aronson and Sue Bender. This is Lynne Gelber. And welcome, Lisa, to the project, and I’d like you to start off by telling us a little bit about your growing up years. LISA ARONSON: Woah, ok, growing up years. Well, I was born in Detroit, Michigan, on the west side of the city, in 1946. LG: Which city did you say? LA: Detroit, Michigan. Lived in Detroit until I went to college, undergraduate school, at Wayne State University in Detroit. Majored in Art History. And then I went on to do graduate work at Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana. In between that time I went to New York City and lived there for two years, just getting one job after another and enjoying the city. LG: What impelled you to go to the City? Just to get a job, or …? LA: I always was attracted to New York City because it just seemed so bustling and so … there was, you know, you feel like you’re a puppet, you know, being held up by strings. And, I just wanted some independence from Detroit. I wanted to get away from family, including my aunt, who was a very influential person in my life but with whom I needed to get some distance. So I went to New York and got some jobs there, working … LG: Your aunt was? LA: My aunt was an artist in Detroit. Cyril Miles. She sort of took me under her wing and supported me and really, I think, influenced me to go into Art History, so that was, it was a very viable course for me. �LG: But she was an artist, not an art historian? LA: She was an artist, not an art historian, no. And, I used to live at their house, in fact, and when she passed, sadly, at the age of 75, I inherited a lot of the art that she had collected. I have that in my house, so it feels like she’s got a very strong presence in my house. But I needed to get away, and I went to New York and took a job in publishing and the sorts of things that undergraduates get in New York before they go on to graduate school. And then after two years there I went, did a, close to a year, hitch-hiking through Europe, like every young person back then. And I applied to graduate school and got in and then the rest was doing graduate work. I got to Bloomington in 19… let’s see now, when would it be, 70 … um, no, 81. It was 81 … when I got to Bloomington. LG: And did you come directly from Bloomington … LA: No, I’m sorry, it was ’71. It was ’71. I’m getting confused here. Yeah. LG: And did you come directly from Bloomington to Skidmore? LA: No. I, while writing my dissertation I was in Detroit teaching part time at Wayne State University and then I got my first job, teaching job, tenure track job, at University of Wisconsin in Stevens Point, and I was there for three years, but knew I didn’t want to stay there forever. The job was not tailored well enough to my areas of expertise, and so I applied for the Skidmore job and I was hired, and that was … LG: And what were your areas of expertise? LA: African, pre-Columbian, and Oceanic. But mainly African, and that’s where I did my field work. Yup. LG: How come you went to Africa? �LA: Ah that’s a good question. I think my aunt, again, was very influential in sending me there. She was very interested in African art and in African textiles in particular, or just textiles, throughout the world. And, I knew I wanted to do something with textiles and I knew Africa was a good place to do it. The other influence was the African American movement, way back in the early ’70s. And people were beginning to study African art and African American studies and schools were beginning to open up programs in that area, so I knew it was a viable profession and I probably could get a job in the field. And I did. So, that was, I think that was my foray into Africa, and I loved it, being there. It just opened up so many windows for me. LG: Like what? LA: Ah, well, I loved being, working with African people in general. And I know that’s very simplistic to state it that way, but there is something about the African … state of mind and the ambiance and the kindness and the receptivity that I really gravitated towards, and I have maintained a lot of connections with people in Africa. Most particularly in Nigeria where I did my field work. And so I feel very close to things having to do with Africa. LG: And what special things were you doing in Nigeria? LA: Well, I went initially to — for my dissertation, it was my PhD. work — to do a study of African textiles in a particular area. I had noted in my research, library research, that there were patterns on textiles from one area of Nigeria that seemed identical to patterns and textiles in another area, and I wanted to know why. And I basically solved the problem, I figured out that there was a long and enduring pattern of trade of textiles coming in, not only from other parts of Africa into the delta, but from Europe. And it, there was a real receptivity to, for these people, to things coming from abroad, coming �from elsewhere, and taking in these textiles and making them their own. And that was really the essence of my research, was to see how people take things in and take ownership of them by renaming them and assigning meaning to them that has to do with their own culture. LG: So what made you decide to come to Skidmore? And when? LA: Well, I applied in 1984. It was a job that was advertised. I don’t, I can’t say that I was particularly seeking out Skidmore, I mean, you know, the nature of the beast in academia is you go where the jobs are. And so I applied and was fortunate to get the job. LG: Um, did you interview on campus? LA: Yes, in those days we interviewed on campus. First of all, I interviewed at College Art Association, which is the annual organization for art … artists and art historians. I interviewed with Penny Jolly, and with … I think Robert Carter was there in that interview. And also Joan Siegfried. I remember her. And then they called me to … unusual, I received a letter in the mail that I was invited to come to campus, they didn’t call me. Those were the days when [laughs] things were done differently than they are now. And as I came to campus, Penny was not here at that point. She was on sabbatical. So I met Jim Kettlewell and other people in the department, and did the interview and got the job. LA: So you arrived on campus, what year? LA: It would have been in the spring of ’84, in 1984. So I started teaching in 1984. LG: In the fall of ’84? LA: Yeah. �LG: And so you were hired because of your African teaching? LA: That’s right. LG: Is this something that the department didn’t have yet? LA: The department had long time, had long had African as an area, as a subject in their courses, in their curriculum. You might recall that there was someone in the department prior to me, Montêquin was his name … deMontêquin? I may not have the exact name, yeah. And there was a bit of a faux pas with him. He had gone to, he had taken students to Spain and they jumped over a wall at the Alhambra, and they got … do you remember this incident? [laughs] LA: So he was out. LG: That was during the 4:1:4 — it was a January term. LA: Yes, that’s right, it was a January term thing. So, fortunately for me, he lost the job and so they hired me. Now he taught African. He also taught Islamic art and he taught preColumbian art. Which is to say that in those days, our field was, the field of African was often wedded with other areas. My thesis advisor, Roy Sieber, always referred to it as the wastebasket definition of art history; you know, whatever doesn’t fit within the normal Western paradigm, and Asian paradigms, goes there. So, I really had to teach a tall order. And, also, they were asking me to teach a survey of art history, which is a Western survey. So, I felt like I was all over the place. LG: And did you add anything about Africa when you were teaching the survey course? LA: Umm, no. The course was strictly Western art, as I recall. Maybe at some point we sort of introduced a little bit of African, but I don’t think so. I don’t think so. It was strictly a Western survey. And then at some point I even took on the subject of Native American �art, and I taught that. So I was covering a lot of bases. And I have to say to some degree that was to my detriment. I was stretched too far, too wide, and needing to be more focused on my own areas of expertise. And the people that they’ve hired in the department since then were more focused on Africa and maybe African American. But I’m sad to say that Africa is now out of the curriculum. They did not rehire when the last person left. So, it’s the end of that era. LG: Now there, umm, was the department separate, the Art History department separate when you came? LA: Mmn mn, we were all one department. I met with, I remember having dinner at the interview with the then chair of the whole department, who was a Studio person whose name is escaping me for the moment. Um, and, of course I would meet the Art History faculty but it was part of the larger department at that point. And I don’t remember at what point we split from Studio. It was sometime in the late ’80s, early ’90s that we split. LG: What can you tell about that, what brought that about? LA: Well, Art History is a very different discipline than Studio Art, and we always felt that we were closer to the Humanities, we always felt that we were closer to, in some cases, to Anthropology, Religion, and not to Studio Art. The act of making art is a very different thing from studying about the history and whatever around art traditions throughout the world. So, it made sense. I think we had a review, one year, of the whole department and it was strongly urged that we split, and so we decided to do that. LG: Was that review part of the Middle States review, or was that … LA: Could have been Middle States, um there’s another body that does a review, and I’m forgetting the name of it, it mostly is concerned with Studio, but Art History, because we were part of the department, was included in it. So … um, I can’t even remember what organization was reviewing us at that point, but I know that when I went up for tenure … �for, yeah, for tenure, we were still a whole department, and then a few years later we split. LG: So what was gained by splitting, or what was lost by splitting? LA: Well it’s always comfortable to have a larger department as your umbrella, that you’re under a larger umbrella of faculty who take care of you, and we’d always felt like we were taken care of. But, to be honest, we felt that being our own discipline and having control of just our discipline seemed to make more sense, in terms of the kinds of conversations we have. You know, did we really want to be hearing a lot of discourse about how beginning drawing should be taught, and what should, how the basic curriculum of Studio should be laid out. Those aren’t the issues that we deal with, and the questions and subject matter that we address as art historians is much more akin to other humanities areas. I always felt much more connected to Africanists in Anthropology or pre-Columbian in Anthropology. Penny’s work was very much wedded to… LG: Penny Jolly LA: Penny Jolly, to literature and religion and classics and so those were our, that was our family, and not studio art. So… LG: What were the high points of your career at Skidmore? LA: Well, um, high points … there were many high points, like it’s hard to pick out one, but I will say, speaking of the Tang, the Tang became kind of a haven for me. I loved working with the people of the Tang, I loved doing things at the Tang. I was involved in the Tang project from the time of its inception on paper; I was on the committee. I was traveling to various campuses throughout the northeast with other faculty from the college, none of them Studio, as you might recall. LG: Who? �LA: I remember Terry Diggory was on that committee, and I don’t remember who the other ones were, but we went to Bates, we went to Dartmouth and we went to Wellesley and looked at, and also, the other college in Vermont, umm … LG: Bennington? SB: Middlebury. LA: Middlebury. Middlebury, right. And looked at their museums to get an idea of what we want. And so that really got me interested in the museum at a very early stage. And, then when it got built I was so excited about the possibility of doing projects with the Tang. LG: Let me interrupt one second before you get to the project, because I’m interested in that, but … what qualities were you particularly interested in bringing into the Tang as it was being built, and conceived of? LA: Well, we were thinking of very practical things, like what kind of storage space do we need, how much exhibition do we need? What would the staffing look like? Every museum that we looked at, you know they had a certain number of staff members and we needed to know how that worked and how it didn’t work, so we were constantly asking those questions. Um, we were not dealing with the design of the museum, per se … it was, that was taking place on sort of a different level, but we were interested in the mechanics and the collection itself. Do we want to go out and purchase items for the Tang or do we allow gifts to be given to the Tang? I mean there were many, many questions about the collection. What do we do with the existing collection that we have at Skidmore, which, prior to the Tang, was housed, when I first came, it was housed in a house behind the President’s house on … SB: On Broadway? �LA: On Broadway, yeah. And I remember going in and seeing the pre-Columbian … LG: The garage. LA: Yeah! And then it moved to a building where Charlie, the new director of the Tang, the first director of the Tang, Charlie … SB: Stainback. LA: Stainback, thank you for that. Where he was housed, there was a house at the edge of the campus, … anyway, the collection was there, and then it moved to the Tang. And so what happens with that collection and how valuable is it in relation to what else could be done at the Tang? So, those were the questions that we had to ask. [Clears throat] Sorry, my voice is getting raspy. LG: What kinds of things did you want to come to the Tang? What kinds of things did come? LA: Well I was always interested in seeing African material be added to the Tang, and I did, I was instrumental in seeing that happen. LG: In shows or in the collection? LA: Both. We wanted stuff in the collection and we wanted to start exhibiting African art. So, I was, I’m very proud to say this, but I was the first faculty member to curate, to oversee a student curated exhibition at the Tang, and it was an exhibition of African art, and it was based on a collection , well actually I did it, I had done it prior, if you recall, in the student center, in Case Center there was a room that was an art gallery, and I had curated an exhibit of African art there, based on a collection owned by a colleague of mine who did work in Nigeria and had quite an elaborate collection of African art. And students curated that collection. So that kind of gave me the taste for what I could do with African art, and what the students could … which, I found that to be a very exciting way to teach �about African art, was to be able to work with objects. And then when the Tang opened I proposed that we do an exhibition and we borrowed pieces from various collections and also used what we had in the Tang. I remember taking the students who were in the class who were helping to curate; it was a seminar that I taught. We drove to Boston and went to Monni Adams, who was working then at the, volunteering at the Peabody Museum, and she had quite a collection of African art that we ended up borrowing. And the students got to see somebody who owns it, the negotiations you go through to get the objects, and then seeing the objects in the museum and working with them. Very exciting for the students, and for me. LG: Other highlights in your career at Skidmore that …? LA: Well the other one was the, my curating the exhibition of African Art and the Environment with John Weber and that was, to me, an incredible experience. LG: And John’s position was? LA: He was the director of the Tang after Charlie Stainback. I believe he was next after Charlie. And he had proposed, we together came up with this idea, of doing an exhibition on contemporary African art, because so much of the collection is focused on traditional objects, and we wanted to, sort of, bring Africa to the 21st century. So we were going to do a contemporary … and my original idea was to do an exhibition on body arts and things related to the body, including dress, and the whole gamut of themes. But then we went to Senegal, the Tang paid for us to go to Senegal to attend LG: [inaudible] LA: To the Dak’Art, the… what did you ask? LG: Who is the we? �LA: John and I. LG: Ok. LA: John and I went to Senegal to attend the Dak’Art, it’s a play on Dakar and Art, and it’s a triennial, they have it every three years, or a biennial, they have it every two years, excuse me. And it is focused strictly on African, on contemporary African art, and we went to see what’s going on in the field. And as we went around and looked I said, “You know, body art is not as interesting to me as the environment. I think that’s what we need to focus on.” And he said, “Yes! Let’s do it!” So that’s how that all started. And we came up with a wonderful array of objects and artworks, we brought the artists to campus, we wrote a catalog together, and it was very successful. And it traveled. This show traveled. It went to Middlebury and it went to the campus in Virginia, um … the Commonwealth, is it the…? SB: VCU? LA: VCU in Virginia, yeah. Virginia Commonwealth. And then of course it was here at the Tang. I would say those are highlights. LG: Challenges? LA: Well, the challenges are dealing with faculty [laughs] in your department and around, abroad. I mean, you know, we’re not family in departments, we’re just colleagues, and we don’t always see eye to eye on things, and one had to struggle with different perspectives and different ways of viewing things. So that was always a challenge for me. And I always say now that I’m retired that I don’t miss the grading — grading is another challenge that we all had to do — and I don’t miss the committee work and the department dynamics. I don’t miss. Yeah. LG: Were you part of any of the college committees? �LA: Yeah. It seems like I was always on a committee [laughs]. I can’t remember … let’s see, I was on the Curriculum Committee for three years in a row, that was … I chaired the Curriculum Committee for three years in a row. That was … that was quite a challenge. And this was when people were changing their curricula because of the writing component that had been added to our curriculum. Umm, I was on umm, the UWW Committee, I recall. To be honest with you, I’m drawing a blank on the others that I was on. LG: Did you work with any UWW students? LA: Yes, I did. I had some. And those projects were very fruitful. I enjoyed working with them, and oh, in addition I taught a seminar through the Special Programs, I guess it was still UWW at that point, and that was really a high point — teaching that seminar. And actually it was a seminar … LG: The seminar was for? LA: It was for the Masters Program through Special Programs. And it was a seminar having to do with African Art and the Environment, and it was wedded to the exhibition. And it was fabulous. I loved doing that. I loved working with these mature students. There were challenges with it — they had to write a thesis within the space of a week, which seemed ridiculous, but that’s how it went. But to have the show there, and too, we actually had an artist come and talk and do, she did an installation, Nnenna Okore came and did installation art in the Schick Art Gallery, and so the students got to meet her, and … that was really a highlight for me. I loved it. LG: That Master of Arts Program began with an intensive series of meetings and … LA: Yeah, and lectures. �LG: Lectures. And then they went out on their own. LA: Right. Well, they, I don’t know, in this case, … Yeah, they didn’t write the thesis during that first week, but they had to come up with an idea and a prospectus and I know it was a challenge for them, when you think about it. But we read some fascinating texts and … I felt like I was teaching in a way that I didn’t experience so much with my ordinary classes. There’s something extra special about a more adult, more interested, if you will, body of students. Um, mature, more mature, and more willing to do the work without complaining. [laughs]. LG: Did you go with students to Africa? LA: No. I did not. I went to Africa and taught classes in Africa, but not with Skidmore students. Although one of the Skidmore students did go on her own to the program, was in the program that I was teaching in. LG: And which program was that? LA: This was a program initiated through RISD, I’m sorry, um, what’s the art school in New York City, um, … LG: Parsons? LA: Parsons School of Design, yes, thank you. Parsons School of Design, in collaboration with Jerry Vogel, who was once married to Susan Vogel who’s a big name in the field of African art. She was the curator, chief curator of African Art at the Met, and Jerry was very, very involved in Africa in many, many ways, and he created this program and worked with the Parsons School of Design, and I taught in that program for three different summers. It required me to become a better French speaker than I ever had been. A lot of translating going from local language, Baoulé, to French, French to �English, and having to talk to the students about what was going on. So I taught in that program quite a bit, and so I’ve done programs in Africa. I also led a tour through the Textile Society of America to Ghana to study textiles. LG: And who was on that tour? LA: Well this was organized by the Textile Society of America so there were a number of people from the organization, members, who came. And some colleagues of mine from different parts of the country. It had nothing to do with Skidmore, per se. LG: What kind of support did you get from the Skidmore administration for you? For the African component of the program? LA: Uh, I don’t feel that I got support for the African program in particular. I always got support from the college for whatever I did, and I’ve always been grateful to Skidmore for the kind of support that we’ve gotten through the years. Being paid for travel to do papers and whatever. But for the African program, per se, I mean there really was no African program, and I was it. Along with Gerry Erchak and then Sónia Silva, we were it, and then Hedi Jaouad. We were the Africanists. We didn’t have an African Studies program then. There is one program now, although it’s not necessarily Africa focused, I think it’s more African American focused. So, no support at large, but never in need of support. The college always was behind me to help me with my projects. LG: Anybody in particular? LA: Well, Phyllis Roth was very, very sympathetic to our needs, and you, working with her — Sue Bender I’m talking to. Um, my last large publication was this book I co-authored with a colleague of mine on a Nigerian photographer who was active in the 1890s. And this was a big project. We received a Getty Grant to do the project, and then together proceeded to look at collections and go to Africa. We were supposed to go together but, the reason that she didn’t come with me, there were some health issues she had, and �Nigeria wasn’t safe at that moment and so we decided not to go then, but then I went during my sabbatical and the college gave me money to go twice during that sabbatical. And it was absolutely critical for this book because we hadn’t yet gotten the African voice on the meanings of these photographs that had been generated in the late ’90s, 1890s. And so the college was very, very supportive with that. And, um, yeah. LG: Ok, so I think you talked about the major challenges and the major high points of your career. When did you retire? LA: I retired six years ago — I think it’s 2005, wait, 2006, no, I cannot exactly remember. It’s back then [laughs]. It’s about six years ago. 2016… oh, sorry, my mind is like mush. [laughs] LG: And what have you been doing since, Lisa? LA: Since then, well the book came out after I retired, so we still had research work to do on it for another year, so … and then, I got involved in a project about my grandmother. I decided I wanted to write a book about her because she was an anarchist, and she dedicated her life to being an anarchist, to the anarchist movement. And I’m working on that now. I’m writing it now. I gave a talk on the subject to the retirees — you might have been there to hear that, and you too. It’s been a really fun project, though challenging in its own way because I don’t regard myself as an expert on anarchism. I don’t regard myself as an expert on the Russian revolution — I’ve had to do a lot of reading and a lot of research for this. But it’s turning out to be a really fun project. I’m also giving a paper this spring that is on my field, related to my field of African textiles, in honor of a, it’s like a Festschrift panel at a conference to honor a colleague of mine who has retired. LG: And where is that? LA: That will be, it’s the Midwest Art History Conference, and it’s going to be in Minneapolis … I’m sorry, no, um, hmm, where is it going to be? I think Minneapolis is where it is. �LG: You’ve also been very involved with the library in town? LA: Yes, I’m doing a lot of volunteer work — was doing too much when I first retired. I was working at the, volunteering at the … Treasures Thrift Shop and decided I didn’t want to sort through used clothing anymore, decided it wasn’t for me, so I switched to the library and was taking on a lot at the library but now I’ve cut it down to just working on afternoon a week. LG: Doing? LA: I work in the used bookstore, and I work the cash register and help out in any way that Jeff needs help. It’s been really rewarding to work there because a lot of my colleagues and friends come in. I like to be able to help people who are looking for one type of book or another. I feel like I’m really serving the community by doing it. I also was working, and this was another volunteer job that I gave up, but I was doing, teaching English as a Second Language through the library. And that, combined with working in the bookstore, felt like too much. And when I started working on the project about my grandmother I decided to stop doing the ESL. And, so that’s where I am now. LG: Lisa, Susan just reminded us that, your field was quite unique. You want to talk a little bit about that? LA: Um, meaning that it was a non-Western field. LG: Yeah. LA: Alright. And of course at some point, not when I first arrived, but at some point the non Western requirement was factored in to the curriculum, and I fit that category. So I would get a lot of students who were taking this course to fulfill their non-Western requirement, you weren’t necessarily getting students who wanted to take African Art, but, that said, I �enjoyed teaching the non-Western area and I felt like it made sense to be providing that kind of other cultural experience. Constantly thinking of how we do things in the west and how it differs in Africa. Also, what were the relationships between the West and Africa. The history of colonialism, the history of trade, and the like. And so I felt that it was a very rich kind of way to deal with the material. I know that there were people on campus who had a problem with the non-Western requirement and there was a point at which they tried to eliminate it from the curriculum. LG: Do you know why? LA: Well they were arguing, and to me this seemed crazy, is that they could see in their mind that some areas within the Western world seemed as marginalized as maybe Africa was, and that, why would Africa be the … what does it mean to be “non-Western.” Questioning that, they had a problem with that terminology. I thought it was very astute of Steve Hoffman at some point during a faculty meeting in which this whole issue of the non-Western was discussed to point out that people in Asia and other parts of the nonWestern world, are the … in Asia and India and that whole part of the world, use the term “non-Western.” So it is used. But, people were challenging whether it was appropriate to be making a divide between Western and non-Western, as if these are really two viable categories. I always felt that it was a way to allow students to broaden their understanding of the world and of themselves within the world, to be seen that other cultures handle things very differently than we do. So, that was … LG: I think we all share that. From the different disciplines that we come from. LA: Right. But you can see where maybe somebody who focuses on the West but deals with marginal issues within the Western context could argue that there is a kind of cultural “other” within their purview. I mean, I don’t know, it became a very contested issue and I wasn’t comfortable with it. I don’t think the non-Western is, I think it still exists in the curriculum. It is, and it’s here and it should be. And it is, I mean when you hear about �people from other parts of the world referring to us they refer to us as the Westerners versus the non-Westerners, so it’s in their heads as well. LG: We’ve had a growing number of students from non-Western backgrounds. LA: Yes, we do. And I would get a lot of African students who had never had a course in African art — loved being educated about their own cultures, in, more broadly speaking, of course, it’s not just from what country they come from but from many other parts of Africa. That said, teaching non-Western subjects sometimes brought up awkwardness in the classroom, with students maybe feeling that you weren’t, I remember there was a particular issue with a Native American course that I was teaching where I was not being tough enough on the Ghost Dance, that I should have given it a more … nuanced representation, and something that was owned by the Plains Indians rather than something that was in response to the introduction of Christianity. I’ll just say it, put it that way. It created a really messy conversation in the classroom. And, so you can’t, I found that sometimes I couldn’t be … here I am, a Western White woman talking about Africa, talking about Native Americans, and I think some students perceived that as being — it just isn’t right to them. I remember when, who came … Gates came from Harvard, came to speak at Skidmore, and he said very openly, “You don’t have to be African or Black to teach African art.” He said that. And that’s the politics of it. And that’s what some students expect — they expect you to be of their culture or their culture area, broadly speaking, and that always kind of unnerved me a little bit. LG: Good. This has been a really interesting post-script, this hour. This conversation. Thank you for adding to it. LA: I remember in graduate school there was an African American program and there was an African program, African Studies. African American Studies and African Studies. And all of the African Americans were in the African American Studies program and we White people were in the African program, and … I just noticed that, observed that, as a reality. You know, it’s not something that African Americans are necessarily drawn to. �They want to know about their own culture, even though Africa is sort of at the roots of their own culture. And, um, I kind of saw these trends as I moved along in the field. [coughs] Excuse me, I’m losing my voice. Um, an African friend of mine, Nigerian friend of mine in the last ten years was involved with a, her church had a African fashion show, and people came out wearing African clothing, but, she offered to come out to be part of it and they didn’t want her to be part of it because they are African Americans, they wanted to own Africa in their way. So this is just another kind of an issue that one deals with. LG: Lisa is there anything else that we should be covering? That comes to mind? LA: Umm, I can’t really think of anything other than, I … that, and I’ll end it on a really positive note, that I’ve always felt very fortunate to be at Skidmore. I’ve always felt that Skidmore is supportive of what faculty do, and as you compare, and I mean, you know, financially and academically and whatever, … and that’s something that I think about a lot. I mean, even now we have the retiree program, the funding that enables faculty to continue to do things after the fact. So, I very much appreciate that. LG: Good. Well thank you! LA: You’re welcome SB: It’s been fun. LA: Sorry that my voice gave out. LG: Do you want me to get you some water or something? LA: No, I’m good. �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lisa Aronson Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:56 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit January 29, 2024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lisa Aronson Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 7, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Lisa Aronson joined Skidmore’s Art History faculty in 1986. In this interview she traces her academic journey to Skidmore and reflects on the influences that led her to specialize in the study if African textiles. While at Skidmore, Aronson experienced Art History’s establishment as a department separate from Studio Art and participated in planning for the Tang Museum. She reflects here on the challenges and opportunities for teaching a non-western subject at Skidmore, including the unique opportunities created by Tang Museum programming. After her retirement in 2015, Aronson has continued her research and writing and has volunteered with a variety of community organizations. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Art Department art history Charles Stainback John Weber Non-Western Requirement Phyllis Roth Skidmore Art Collections Tang Museum UWW https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/01c8c8e069acdcecffa6e344b77e5959.jpg a195e2a06751a7ac5b9d5be0cac40e70 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cd61e3f47c4d2d86d6eea9e9a281a50d.m4a cabdb8a02cdf10bec66aad579bfdbbb4 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/130988402da4559a69388781f8bf6fc4.jpg 00f403913b838a591cd633f077bd9e14 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/18afeba47f4a1654b00b653001a7a78c.jpg 0b0f08762011357edeb8d017a29f63fd https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9d2e9cd941c5068416ab32362a52164c.pdf f3c2858473c3e5cadaa63682b937810f PDF Text Text Liz Laitman Hughes ‘92 and Cathy Laitman Burke Interview Log 00:00:00 Liz Laitman Hughes grew up in Stamford, CT and lives outside of D.C 00:00:13 Cathy Laitman Hughes grew up in Stamford, CT and lives in California 00:00:30 Mom went to Skidmore, Liz Rosenthal Laitman, Class of 1957 00:01:00 Cathy interested in Studio Art and loved Saratoga 00:01:20 First memory of Saratoga was downtown and juxtaposed with the modern campus 00:01:50 Joke that each family member went to three different schools: Mom went when it was all girls. 00:02:00 Mother took cooking class that went to the supermarket to impress men 00:02:40 Cathy came in 1982, when the drinking age kept changing 00:03:03 Was a party and social school when Cathy started 00:04:45 Liz remembers interdisciplinary courses 00:05:20 Beginning of the core curriculum 00:06:30 Liz lived in Moore halls when on campus drinking rules changed 00:07:30 Liz went on tour of Tang 00:08:15 Cathy felt like Saratoga felt like a small town in the 80’s, now is more of a small city 00:12:00 Cathy lived in Howe Rounds freshman year, memories come back like insecurities 00:14:00 Liz majored in Art History and has worked in museums since 00:17:00 Cathy met with college friend years later, and felt like no time passed 00:18:15 First reunion for both Cathy and Liz 00:20:00 Had friends that did music, friends in Bandersnatchers 00:25:22 Cathy appreciated the intimacy of small campus 00:26:00 Both Studio Art minors 00:28:30 Liz always loved museums, went to NYC museums with mom 00:30:25 Liz produces art films 00:33:00 Liz and Cathy’s Skidmore experiences were different 00:36:00 Changes in technology change the college experience 00:36:30 Pay phones in each suite, many suite mates had long distance relationships 00:38:12 Mostly sophomores in Moore Hall 00:40:10 Cathy finds it great to look back and visit years later, “absence makes the heart grow fonder” 00:40:37 Remembering college has changed since Facebook 00:42:00 Wish Mom could see this Skidmore reunion � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Liz Laitman Hughes '92 & Cathy Laitman Burke '86 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data wav Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 26/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Liz Laitman Hughes '92 and Cathy Laitman Burke '86 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 3, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/336c79fbc4f2c1ea5b69ce5f06bae709.jpg 77297fecc96e0837d2bf41d56621aba4 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c57257f42443d0ab0b65c2db54c146d9.mp3 28c647a6b95e8098a77b1fe62c1ff085 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d06dd1ad9afe4c93888d9659a49a0ba0.mp3 7bc03340c902067294189955d2a0775c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Genniger-Goldfarb, Lauren Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Luis Mazariego Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lorenzo Q. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/30/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Lorenzo (name has been changed) talked about his experience coming from El Salvador to the U.S. at the age of 10. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. I interview Lorenzo Q., a twenty two year old man living undocumented in the U.S. Lorenzo came to this country from El Salvador at the age of 10 with his parents, and speaks on his experience transitioning into a culture and a language that was completely foreign to him. Because he was not informed on U.S.-El Salvador relations back home, he had no prior expectations or perceptions of this country before his arrival and was both excited and nervous at the prospect of his move. Since then, he has experienced everything from forced summer school and bullying to helpful teachers and ESL classes. He also wishes to somehow reconnect with his family in El Salvador, but finds that difficult because of his immigration status. Now he doesn't see much hope for citizenship due to the election of Donal Trump, but is still determined to stay in this country. El Salvador Idenitity language Latinx race school https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e7ad604f0fc9e002b1faa0fb64f263ac.PNG 334ef39a8edd5185d9a119c963ffaa59 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/680ad92cfa87e616d488d64ea389bcf7.m4a ecee0cda3372d05855e4a0c59faab43c https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a4f16589f926600d058b57da8a98e300.m4a d60872ccc9a9381adf6050f7577f8607 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/39183178a3c1f9a885a5ed8039ff953d.pdf 603231a0fae1559ae0790a6caaec5b67 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/54b4cc436010b61a9831032305cd47d0.pdf 5fc7a4ac249337de8b2743c393faffd9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cooper Murphy, Skidmore Senior Memory Project Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lou Schneider Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 and Saratoga Senior Center 5 Williams St, Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 (Zoom) Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Cooper Murphy Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 18/11/2020 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:55:17 and 00:23:48 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound First Transcription of Lou Schneider CM: Today is 10/26/2020 time is 12:55 pm I am the interviewer CM would you like to introduce yourself. Lou Schneider: My name is Lou Schneider, I am 89 born 4/17/1931. What else can I say? CM: That’s about it. Okay so are you okay with this information being stored or shared through the public domain and in Skidmore Saratoga memorial project. LS: No problem. CM: Okay, and let's get started shall we. Okay, first question is, where did you live as a kid. LS: Wander what I’m sorry louder. CM: Where did you live as a kid. LS: Brooklyn, New York. That's where I was born. CM: And what was your family like LS: Well family. I'm the first generation in the United States. My father came from Lithuania, my mother from Poland. CM: Did you have any siblings. LS: I have a younger sister three years younger than me. CM: Did you guys go to the same school LS: Yes, Lafayette high school in Brooklyn New York CM: And how're classes for that. LS: Alone one what. I'm sorry. CM: Sorry, did you have of what we're teachers like back then. LS: I still didn't catch the question, I'm sorry. CM: It's perfectly fine. What were teachers like back at your middle school? LS: What was it like CM: Yeah. LS: Well, I'm being born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. Is uh my stomping ground was Coney Island spent a lot of time, they're. Doing a lot of things. As I was growing up at the age of eight. We used to play had some friends. We used to play chess Pinochle and hearts. CM: And did any of those become hobbies that you did in the future. LS: Hobbies? CM: Hobbies. Yeah. What were your hobbies? LS: Yeah, the only the only hobby. I really had was reading. I enjoy, you know, books, a lot of reading. And just living the good life in Brooklyn, New York, and stomping ground in Coney Island. CM: Sounds fun. Did you have a specific genre that you really liked…Or a topic? LS: Or what? CM: Book. Did you have a topic of a book that you really liked to read about LS: No, I read on. Anything I can get my hands on. But I gravitated more towards mysteries than anything else. CM: Cool. Did you have a favorite type of music as a kid? LS: Did I have a what CM: Did you have a favorite type of music like a type of band or LS: Type of anything. No, really. Enjoyed own music. Yeah. Gravitated a little towards jazz, but that's about it. CM: Did you have a favorite holiday? LS: Favorite what CM: Holiday LS: Any day. I didn't have to go to school with was a holiday to me. CM: That's fair enough. LS: I was not. I was not one of the best students available at the time as growing up as I got older, I want. I want to see college. I got a degree in chemical engineering. So just settle down a bit. CM: Uh, did you have any pets as a kid? LS: Did you ask your question. CM: Yeah, sorry, it looks like our connections, a bit iffy. But, um, Yes. I said, did you have any pets as a kid. LS: No. No, I'll no pets went up by. Those in Brooklyn and a three bed in a three-bedroom apartment. She used to sleep in the bedroom with my folks. I used to sleep in a roll away cot in the living room. Which made it interesting. CM: So you mentioned how you went to community college and we've talked about your. Elementary School. But do you know, do you remember where you went to high school. LS: Yes, Lafayette High School in Brooklyn New York, and I admit though I really weren’t a good student never took any interest in it until I grew up. CM: And I know that you're a veteran. Can you tell me which war he fought in if not wars? LS: Korea I was very fortunate during the Korean War. I was stationed in Washington, DC. I work for the Army prosthetics research lab we did research on different types of materials artificial limbs. And it was interesting. So the work with amputees almost all my life at the time. CM: Uh, did you ever see any combat. During your time there? LS: None at all, no. CM: So you have worked with amputees and just make sure I'm getting this right. And you developed different materials for prosthetics and stuff like this. LS: Right. CM: This might be a very specific question, but did you ever have a specific type of, I guess, limb that you were more of an expert about making a prosthetic about? LS: No, not really. CM: Just all over everywhere? Nice. LS: Yeah. CM: How long did you serve for LS: Well, actually I was in for two years spent a year and a half and Walter Reed as I send a prosthetic sweet. I was… CM: I'm sorry you cut out on my end. Could you say that again? LS: I said, well, I lived off base with my wife. So, All I had to do is come in for inspections every Wednesday and that's about it. I did my work at the prosthetic research lab, you know, work on with different types of materials. Developing them for the prosthetic. Was I was in a medical or even though I was a chemical engineer that was what the army did. CM: That's pretty interesting. And you mentioned that you were married. When did you get married? LS: Married in 1953. We were married now 67 years. CM: Congratulations. LS: Thank you. Maybe you should congratulate her instead. Both: (laugh) CM: Um, so did you have any kids well during those two years. Or was after you. You uh left the war. LS: Oh yeah I have three children. My daughter, the oldest was born in Walter Reed. In December, just before I got out of the army. I got out in February, and the other two my oldest son was born in Newton Massachusetts and the younger one was born in Nassau County, West Burry. CM: Did you move around a lot while being in the army or after the army? LS: No didn't move, but it's spent a year and a half at Walter Reed so. Which was to me. Very good. Good adventure. Really enjoyed that. CM: Do you have any fond memories of the time one years in our watery? LS: But that's, that's hard to say. I enjoy it almost every day live door post was married at the time. So it was interesting working at Walter Reed. The only thing that actually really bothered me. Was these burns. You know, little kids getting burned or something. And you had to treat them so. That that hurt more than anything else, amputees didn't bother me. CM: So you worked with all ages? LS: Pardon? CM: You worked with all age groups. Not just like older people you worked with even children as well. LS: Oh, no. We work with anyone that had a problem as an amputee. You know, we would then with the prosthesis. Get the right match. In fact, any of these soldiers that used to have a hook. We gave an actual. Hand and we had gloves that fit over it. That was just look like skin. And we would color it to the person's coloring, you know if you put one hand up and you have one hand down the one that's up is like a different color was the blood rushes down to the other one. Was interesting is interesting matching it up. CM: Very, fascinating actually. So you said that after you left you still worked on prosthetics? LS: What were you saying? CM: I was saying that after you left the army, you still worked with prosthetics. Correct. LS: No. When I left the army. As a chemical engineer worked in the chemical fields were mainly in plastic companies. My forte was plastics at the time. CM: Uh. oh. Okay, so were. You said what you were born in 1989 was that? LS: No born 1931 CM: Someone gave me the wrong information. CM: You are alive during World War II? Correct? LS: Was I what I'm sorry. CM: You were alive during World War II? Correct? LS: No. I was alive during the World War II, yes. CM: But never fought? LS: Well I was born in 1931. WWII was 41-42 era later. I never got involved with that. Just did the Korean situation. CM: Got it. Uh, you were around when the TV became a thing in the microwave as well. Do you remember that at all impacting your life, those technological developments? LS: Really No really, you know, I was too young. And I think at that time. CM: Uh, did you ever have a favorite president? LS: any have what? CM: I'm sorry. I'll repeat that again. Did you ever have a favorite president when you're alive, like someone you really rooted for LS: Well, when I was born, FDR was president and he's really only one that I grew up with. And of course, it was Truman and Eisenhower. They came later. CM: Let's see. So did you ever go on any trips like family trips, when after, you know, Vietnam, or even? My bad after the Korean War? Or even with your family back when you were younger. LS: Oh yeah, we used to go. Spent a lot of time in the Long Beach and Long Island. We used to rent a little a house there that it was that was good memories at that time. Oh, you're on the beach. He. Well, Everybody takes care you and it was enjoyable. CM: Sounds like a nice community. LS: Yeah, yeah, we can. We try to do things as a family, my father. Is from Lithuania. So I'm first generation. My mother's from Poland. So in fact, at that time I used to speak a lot of Yiddish and some Hebrew, not much anymore. As I was growing up, they learned English with me. So we always spoke English so happy today they became fluent in that time. My father live to 97 CM: And you mentioned that you speak Hebrew? Can I ask what religion you believe in if any at all? LS: Sorry, I didn't catch that. CM: I was just asking what religion you would consider yourself. LS: Oh. Jewish I’m Jewish. CM: Cool. LS: Yeah Hebrew would be the religion really CM: Yeah……..So you got any grandkids now or still just your kids? LS: Well, I got eight grandchildren and one great-grandson. Five girls and three boys the grandchildren and the great is a little boy. Who is now three CM: Do you ever have. Like big family gatherings where everybody comes back together. LS: Yeah, we used to lay back, but not anymore. It's…You know with scattered all over the United States. One sons in Massachusetts, one sons in New Hampshire in North Carolina my daughter is in Michigan so it gets a little difficult to have a family reunion. But thank God for the technology we can have it on their computer like zoom and everything. CM: Did you ever have a favorite sports team or growing up. LS: The what CM: A favorite sports teams. LS: Oh yeah, New York Mets. We were strong Mets fans. Living on Long Island. We used to go to as many games as we could. My wife and I, she's a strong Mets fan and even stronger than me. CM: Do you feel like you've bonded even more because the Mets. LS: Yeah CM: Kid your kids also decide to follow the Mets, or do they have their own sports teams. LS: No it’s a Mets. Always the Mets. CM: Always the Mets. LS: Otherwise, I came my wife, but I think she married me because I was a Mets fan. CM: Uh, did your wife work for living as well or? LS: Yeah, when we lived in Long Island. She used to be the airport manager with Bennington airport in Bennington, Vermont, and she enjoyed that. In fact, I have a private pilot's license and I used to have Brendan, I own the Cessna 150 so comes, you know, weekends I go flying and every once in a while. My wife being a weather person had to report the weather. She asked me to go up and see how high the clouds are so I take the plane and go 6000 feet. Oh it was interesting. Oh, I have a pilot's license. I did a lot of things. Growing up Just…. CM: Sorry, it looks like you froze there for the last second. You said you did a lot of things growing up to do stay anything after that. LS: Well, it's, every day was really an adventure. Got a pilot's license. I'd love flying. You know, private pilots, but whatever I can do, I do. In my younger days. CM: So, how did you meet your wife? LS: I was at that time was going to City College of New York and she was the Brooklyn College and we had a party. So that's when we met but didn't really get together with her until she found out that I had a car she stuck around. CM: Have you have any. What was that, sorry. You seem to freeze these LS: I was gonna say she thought I was crazy. Once I used to tell her I had my socks painted on my feet because anytime I took a bath is something watch the socks at the same time. I thought that she would just leave but never happened. CM: When did you get married, then? LS: 53. Married 67 years. In fact, October 24 was the 67th year CM: Nice. LS: Yeah, it's been a long time I was 20 years old at the time. CM: Let's see. Did you, uh. Did you ever take your grandchildren on a vacations as well or was that more just the occasional visit LS: Yeah, we used to go a lot to Gilbert Lake State Park. That was a in Otsego County New York, we have family gatherings there we rented a couple of cabins. But then as the kids got older, you know, they went their way. We went our way. So this is what happens. I got eight grandchildren and one great. CM: Hmm. So you worked at a plastic factory. You mentioned before, or at least some form of a plant, um, was there a specific product that you were making or just all variety of plastics. LS: It was plastics. Lot of work In a chemical plant. We had vinyl chloride, we may polyvinyl chloride. Plasticizes. A long time ago. CM: Is there a specific year at least that you can think of that stands out in your mind like. Whether that was a specific event. I'm not let's hold on let me rephrase that a bit better. Do you remember a global event that you can recall from whatever year you can, I guess? Think of like something that really impacted you? LS: Well, the only thing I can remember is I got a chemical burn and I was six weeks in bandages. So I went up as I was a plant manager at the time in this place to come to me and we've had some problems with one of the filters and as I turned away the gasket blow when they hit me in the back. I ended up in bandages for six weeks. But there's no scarring or anything. Thank God for that. CM: Thank goodness. Was that the worst injury that ever happened, or did you see worse at the plant. LS: That's the what. I'm sorry. CM: Was that the worst injury that happened at the plant. Or… LS: No, it was a work injury. CM: Yeah, I was there anything else. Did you see any other injuries at the plant that may have been just as bad or worse? LS: No, that was, that was the worst one. I used to run the plastic plant also. So I did a lot of experimental work and PepsiCola and PepsiCala bottles and we'd make different type of plastics and every once in a while, a bottle would just rupture. I do remember one point that when I was in a pilot plant. A gasket on one of the reactor just blew and just drove me across the room didn't get hurt or anything was just wild thing like slow motion when you request the room, but unfortunately, I used to take a lot of chances. CM: Uh, so going back to your college years. Do you remember a class that I guess inspired you to go into Chemical Engineering or was it just something that happened? LS: What was interesting because when I signed up. I signed up to be an accountant and at the last minute. And I said, no, I'm going to go into chemical engineering. I like the instructor guy was a Dr. Newman, he dismantle the German planes set to the war, very interesting guy. Unfortunately, he stuttered. So he would look. Write on the blackboard what his right hand and have an eraser in his left hand and as he's writing. He's erasing oh yeah to be quick with him. But hey, he's my one of my outstanding. Versus the other one was a doctor Kalani which we just talked about different types of materials. You know, you, you're bringing up memories that I haven't thought of and years. CM: Did you have a lot of friends in college, or was it more just going there for the work LS: Well, I went to college after. When I was stationed Walter Reed and I got out of the Army and I went back to college on the GI Bill. So gave me up to refinish shopping and get my degree. Was I had interrupted getting the degree to go as I was drafted so. But then I finished up. CM: Uh, What were your feelings. Once you find out you're being drafted? LS: Always my feelings of being drafted? Wasn't too happy about it. I don't leave home. I had to go. Well, you know, that's life. CM: Did you make any good friends while being in the army? LS: Yeah, I had, I had a good friend. But you know when I got out. He didn't live in the same part of the country that I lived in, and we just, you know, we lost contact its unfortunate but… very unfortunate. Know also blame myself on that because I never took the time to reconnect with any of these people, you know, just busy at home and it's more…(Internet issues) CM: So when you finally were able to be home. Did you do anything for, I guess? Did you continue your reading hobby or did you delve into other hobbies? LS: Oh, The time when I got out of the Army. I had, I was married, and I had a daughter was born December 30 and uh Walter Reed. So there was really not too much time to do anything. Just trying to survive at that point. And though we moved back and we live in a small apartment that too far from the folks area. It was nice. Then went out on my own and Got a degree in started to work for our first company I worked for was Dewy and Allyn chemical company in Cambridge, Massachusetts. CM: Did you just freeze or are you still there. Up. You're moving again. Sorry you froze for that you mentioned you worked at Cambridge and then I couldn't the picture. Stop moving and sound stop going through. LS: Yeah Well, it worked for the company called Dewy and Allyn chemical company. And they plastics were really was my forte. I really enjoyed. You know, trying to develop them and whatever. CM: So have the Mets brought you back for any. Baseball games or have you been kind of off the baseball trail for a while. Hold on a second, it appears that a connections a bit unsecure. So let's, I'm just gonna wait for that to settle down, be a bit before I ask any more questions. LS: Okay. I’m at your beck and call. CM: Thank you very much. Let's see, it looks like it's starting to settle down….. Okay. So going back to the Mets. Have you guys been to a recent game or I guess in recent years games? Or have you guys really just been able to watch from a distance at this point? LS: I'm sorry I didn't catch that? CM: Uh, have you been to have you been back to watch the Mets? Like, have you been there in person at all? In recent years, or have it has it had to be more at a TV viewpoint at a radio? LS: Five years ago was. We used to live in Bennington, Vermont. Right now I live in Saratoga Springs live in a 55 and over community. CM: And how'd you end up in Saratoga Springs from Bennington, Vermont. LS: Well, lived in Bennington Vermont first. And we used to come over to Saratoga Springs all the time. So we decided when I had the opportunity CM: To move here. LS: Now, I like Saratoga Springs. Yeah. CM: Did you guys come for the horse racing or just for everything. LS: No. Just, just because we like Saratoga Springs much better than Bennington, Vermont, but more things going on here. And then, my wife never liked Bennington, Vermont CM: Would you say Bennington, Vermont. Was your least favorite place to live. LS: I like Bennington, Vermont, and in fact I've, you know, I've lived in a many places. It's like anything else. And you can live in a big city or a small town, you can vegetate or be active and I enjoyed being active. I enjoy politics so. CM: What so you were a big follower politics throughout the years? LS: My what? CM: I was asking you said that you were very big follower of politics throughout the years? Yes? LS: Yeah, well I enjoy politics enjoy getting involved with the in Bennington and when I was in Saratoga Springs. I got involved with the politics in Saratoga Springs. LS: It just makes life interesting CM: Did you run for anything or was it just more support? LS: Than I will. I'm sorry? CM: Did you run for anything in Saratoga? Was it just more for support? LS: No, I Was a Housing, Commissioner, at one point. Well, five years. I didn't get that much involved. I say, mainly in the background. Now, it was a housing commissioner about 5 years. CM: Did you get into politics anywhere else, or was it just more Saratoga that you really were more involved with? LS: It really was just Saratoga. Somewhat involved in Burlington, Vermont, but It was just a different atmosphere. CM: Where you work in Bennington, Vermont. (Computer issues) LS: When? CM: When I'm sorry continue what you were saying before, I didn't realize you were still going. LS: I'm sorry I didn't catch that. CM: I didn't mean to interrupt you. I thought you. The screen froze again there for a second. So I thought you finished but uh what I asked. Afterwards, was Where did you work. When you were in Burlington, Vermont, or were you retired then. LS: Oh, I worked in a hooskicfalls. Short for company called oh Mitsui. Which made the different types of chemicals and plastics. CM: Did you know what the plastics were used for? Was it just general purpose? LS: General purpose. CM: Did you have a favorite company you worked for or were they all kind of just the same? LS: You know that's a very interesting question. I enjoyed working for a company called Dewy and Allyn chemical company in Cambridge, Massachusetts. In fact, that's one of the first companies. I really enjoyed working for me to companies, otherwise I would not have worked there. CM: Did you ever travel throughout the country, or did you mainly stay on the east coast. LS: Oh no I travel, I used to go to Japan once a year business movement. Mitsui when I worked for them. Of course we had a plant in Osaka. So once a year I used to go to Japan is to go to Tokyo, Yokohama, and Osaka. It was nice. CM: Did you ever take your family with you, or was it just you that went LS: Yeah, I always took my wife with me. CM: Did you have a fun time in Tokyo. I was asking, did she have a fun time in Japan. LS: Yeah, I had a great time in Japan. Yeah, I love the people there. I was very involved with them. When I worked for a company called Mitsui. Mitsui was in Japan was in Osaka. So I used to go there once a year. CM: Did you travel anywhere else around the world.. Sorry. LS: What do you say born? CM: Sorry? LS: And it was nice going. Yeah, I used to take the wife with me, so she traveled almost everywhere that I went, you know, any, any business trip I went I took her. CM: Did you travel and… What was that LS: That really kept me out of trouble taking the wife. CM: A. Is there anywhere else around the world that you traveled LS: Any what CM: I was asking, Did you travel anywhere else around the world. You mentioned Japan did you like go to England? LS: Japan. I had, I had a client in Sweden used to go to Sweden once a year. Was in Belgium. And my son. When he was working. He was working for… he lived in Germany. Frankfurt, Germany, so I used to go visit him. Oh, my wife and I used to visit him. That's when we were able to travel. CM: Did any of your kids decide to follow in your footsteps and get a chemical engineering degree. LS: Yeah, my youngest son is a chemical engineer my oldest son is a industrial engineer. So they both went into engineering, and my one of my grandson's an engineer also worked for Lockheed Martin. I told I wish one of them became a doctor or something so we can have in the family. And work they all became engineers. CM: So you mentioned that your kids live all around the world. One lives in Germany, you've mentioned where the. Do you know where the rest of your kids are currently stationed? LS: My kids are now? CM: Yeah. LS: Yeah, my daughter, which is the oldest is in Michigan. My oldest son is in Littleton Mass and my youngest son is in North Carolina Greensboro, North Carolina. So all scattered also and they all did much better than I had so very happy about that. CM: Do you have a funny story from when you were having to I guess. Take care of your kids or an event that really sticks out in your mind. From the time when you saw them grow up. LS: Well, the only thing that sticks in my mind now. Is one we were watching my grandson, and in our apartment, and my son and I was there and he had a dirty diaper. So we go over Bennington together. My wife back to haven't cleaned him up. As my son said we took crap from no one Let's see. CM: Did you do any volunteer work throughout your life or was it mainly just working at the chemical plant. LS: Mainly chemical engineering CM: Uh, this might be one that I don't know if you have ever been here. Have you ever gone to Disney World, or have your kids ever dragged you to it to it. LS: Sorry? CM: Sorry you froze. Again, I didn't realize you were still talking. Um, I asked. CM: Did you kids ever drag you to like Disney World. LS: We went to Disney World only once. When I took all the kids that was way back Way back. We enjoyed it. We rented a house out there and spent about a week on Disney. CM: Did you ever enjoy going to see movies and stuff Like that. LS: Ever what I'm sorry. CM: Did you ever go to see movies through your life or some point or even like Broadway. Shows or just shows in general. LS: Yeah, we used to go to some we go, Broadway, show. Unfortunately, we can always afford the top tier in a balcony. Never New York I assure, but we took in as many shows as we could.LS: My wife was a folk singer. So she works. She's worked with some group in New York City. CM: Did you get to meet any famous people doing that? LS: Famous people? Yeah, the only people I met was my wife. Both (laugh). Yeah, we met… can't think of his name….Earl, Ray James. Met him on a plane. Can’t think of his name, unfortunately. CM: It happens. Uh, so you used to live in Brooklyn? Then when you got older, you got drafted, then you went. Back to sorry I'm forgetting the name. It is. LS: Whose name. CM: Does you're trying to member my make sure I'm making sure I'm keeping track of the places. What was not Waltz, it's a. Walter reed that was it. You went used to live in Walter reed and then you went t Cambridge and then Bennington? LS: Yes. CM: Okay, just making sure I'm keeping track of everywhere. You've gone in that timeframe. Did you ever take any road trips anywhere? LS: Any road trips CM: Yeah, like a long times in the car. Going from place to place. LS: No, never. Whenever we whenever we travel, we either went by plane or by Bus, but never car. CM: Did you ever have to. LS: No that’s not true. No because we got married. We took a trip down to Florida by car I drove down there. CM: Did you enjoy your time in Florida when you went LS: Pardon CM: I asked, how was your time in Florida? LS: How much time in Florida? CM: How was the trip to Florida? LS: It was good. Those were the days when I can you know drive a car those distances wife also drove. We also had a camping trailer that I used to lug behind my car. So we did a lot of camping used to camp up in Canada. That was nice. CM: Was Canada your favorite place to camp. LS: Montreal we camped up there. CM: Did you ever take your kids camping. LS: You look frozen. CM: I think You're right, I think it looks like our screen, stop being frozen. Did you ever take your kids camping? LS: Well, yeah, we always took the kids, my daughter never liked it. But she wasn't we're not going to leave home. It was not an outdoors person. Boys loved it, of course. CM: Did you ever have a running with wild animals well camping? LS: Never have a what? Sorry. CM: Did you ever run into like wild animals? When camping like deer or moose? LS: No, I never saw any of those things. CM: You ever go fishing while Camping LS: No. I don't, I don't really fish. I went once with my son and equal fish those sunfish wanted to take it home for show and tell. Wouldn’t last anyway. CM: Did you kids ever try and…..Continue saying. No, no, no, it our connection keeps freezing up so I you freeze up and I think you're done. So I tried to ask another question but continue what you were saying. LS: I didn't catch it. I'm sorry. CM: I was just saying it seems that our screens. Keep freezing. So I assumed you finished what you were saying. But continue what you were just saying a second ago. LS: I'm finished CM: Okay. I was going to ask, have your kids ever tried sneaking like something bizarre into the show and tell classes? LS: Not really. Not really nothing bizarre. Everything was nice and calm when we went CM: Did all your kids go the same school or did you send them different places. LS: Now what? I'm sorry. CM: It's okay. Did you send your kids to different schools or did they all start in the same place? LS: Actually they wanted different schools, my daughter went was in Brooklyn, New York, she went to No, no, she was in Walter Reed. So they all wanted different schools. I know that. What schools. I don't remember. CM: That's perfectly fine. Uh, did you back in your high school years, get into any high school quote on quote shenanigans. LS: And I want. I'm sorry. CM: Did you ever get into any mischief and high school LS: No, no. CM: Okay. LS: Went to Lafayette high school, Brooklyn graduated from there and went to ccny CM: Okay, that should be about wrapping up our interview time LS: Pardon? CM: I was saying that that should be wrapping up our interview time it is 150 we started at a 1250 so it's it's been an hour. Thank you for talking with me. LS: Okay. CM: Do you have any questions or anything. LS: No, I want to thank you CM: Thank you so much for spending your time. LS: very interesting. Yeah. CM: Now. Okay. Uh, I'll stop the recording now. Let's make sure I can do that these tech things don't always go well. Second Transcription of Lou Schneider CM: Today is 11/18/2020. I am the interviewer CM and to view it in Luke Snyder, would you like to introduce yourself? Lou Schneider: Pardon? Cooper Murphy: Would you like to introduce yourself? LS: I’m Lou Schneider. CM: So, Lou. Are you find with this recording being used in our project at Skidmore, and possibly be accessed by the public domain. LS: Of course. CM: Okay, so let's get started. So you talked about how a you're in the Korean War for two years. Correct? LS: Well, I was actually during the Korean War situation. I was stationed in Washington, DC. I worked for the Army prosthetics research lab where we did research and development on different type of materials for prosthesis, which was a very interesting job. CM: So what would you say would be the timeframe from. When you first joined to when it finally ended. LS: Well, I wanted 53 to 5519 CM: Okay, so can you kind of walk me through the experience from day getting drafted to basically what happened next to when you were allowed to go home. LS: (clears throat) Well, I was drafted, but I was also married at the time. And because I guess because I was married and being a chemical engineer they station me and Washington DC, Walter Reed Army Medical hospital which I worked for the prosthetics Research Lab, which was good duty. CM: Okay, so you got drafted, you got brought to the prosthetics research lab. And were you given any training and then sent over as well, or did you ever actually go to Korea? LS: No, I had no training at all. You know, was I have a degree in chemical engineering. So they figured smart enough anyway. CM: Sorry, just writing down some stuff. Okay, so you got you had the medical not the medical the chemical engineering degree and you're just flown over. Did you have you ever saw in combat, as you told me before. They never made you do like a boot camp or anything like that. Correct. LS: Oh yeah, oh yeah, we had a go eight weeks of infantry training and then eight weeks of medical training. Was I was assigned to the Medical Corps. CM: Okay, so when would you say you actually got to go over to be stationed in Korea was that between 54-55 LS: Pardon again. CM: Sorry, what was the actual part where you got to go over to Korea was that between like 54 and 55 or was you LS: 53 and 55 CM: You fine. OK. Cool, cool. How many patients would you say you saw a day over at a in Korea? LS: You mean and Walter Reed work they're willing to read amputees. And research and development on different type of materials and now we're actually our test students as I would call them. We work with about eight different amputees that lost limbs that we're not the same, you know, arms, two legs. It was interesting work. CM: Okay. That's your wrap up that little segment. So, uh, what's the war ended did you, uh, did you remember the experience of finding out when people discovered the double helix? Just curious? LS: Not really, no. CM: Yeah, I figured. I just want to see that for myself. I'm a bio major. Okay. So, Uh, sent after the Korean War ended. You were alive during you know the whole space race. Correct. LS: Well, when the Korean War ended, and I got discharged from the army. I actually went back to school. And went back for my masters, but I never completed it. Married at the time had a kid, you know, it's very, very difficult. So how to actually find a job, which I did. I worked for a company called doing Dewy and Allyn chemical company as an engineer, in Cambridge, Massachusetts. CM: Uh, yeah, I remember that actually from last time. So going quickly back to the space race and everything. Do you remember like all those events like Sputnik and everything like that, and if so, how did that make you feel during that time period? LS: Sputnik? CM: Yeah, when the Satellite went up LS: Russia put the spacecraft. I really didn't think much about it at the time. Yeah, I figured that you know I’ve government knew what they were doing it. We're going to put up something also and I was not involved with it so didn't really care too much. CM: What about when you heard about someone was able to go on the moon? LS: That was interesting. I mean, that was the first to me to first have space travel to go to various places the various planets. It was exciting space is very exciting the space station was also very exciting. CM: I bet, especially since I was the first of any of its kind. LS: Yeah. So after the space race. Do you remember anything as well of like when the Cold War was starting to become more of a thing? Like for instance Cuban Missile Crisis. How did that affect you at all during one that was? LS: Not really. Not at all. CM: Just curious. OK, so moving on from that you mentioned that you got married a what time again did you actually get married at LS: Like what I'm what CM: What year did you get married again. LS: 1954 CM: Okay, and where did you say the wedding was LS: Wedding was in Brooklyn, New York. CM: Do you remember where you went for your honeymoon. LS: Well, I was in the army at the time and I had a week off so we stopped off in Rahway, New Jersey. The first night was it was raining and then we ended up in Atlantic City. And then, of course, I had a week before I was had to go back to Walter Reed. In fact, my daughter was born in Walter Reed in 1954. The fact, December 30 1954 CM: Okay. So you mentioned before and unfortunately wasn't able to get this down to my notes. You said that your favorite place was either New port, a Walter Reed? LS: Was what? CM: You mentioned that you moved around a lot in your life, last time when we talked, and you mentioned that either your favorite place was Walter Reed or Newport, do you remember which one was LS: Walter Reed. Fact, though I was stationed there for a year and a half, and the prosthetics Research Lab, which was to me very interesting work, you know, working with these amputees. They were our test specimens on the materials that we developed and we work with about eight amputees. They were fun group. CM: Do you remember any of the uh I guess. Patients you had like anything specific about them. Besides, you know, I'm being amputees’. LS: Well, there's one thing that always sticks out on my mind. We had a nurse that lost part of her nose. And she came in to be fitted for plastic nose, but we come back every week because there was a stain on the on the nose. She smoked so what we did is we gave her a dozen noses and said, go home and do what want. In fact, we had one amputate that lost his left arm, and he built his friend that he can swim beat him in one lap and no water in the pool at Walter Reed and we fitted him with a fin. So yeah, I'll tell you, we had a lot of fun. They were a fun group they didn't feel sorry for themselves. I said, this is it. And we'll do the best we can. CM: So, if you don't mind? Actually, could you give me like a walkthrough figure daily I guess life back when used to live and watery? LS: Well, I was married at the time. So we live off post and of course, I had a car so how do. (cough) Excuse me, actually I was assigned to Walter Reed, but I worked in a place called Forest Glen. That's where the prosthesis was. Every day we had a call for an inspection. At seven o'clock in the morning. That was about it. Was just a routine. My daughter was born and Walter Reed 1954 December 30 CM: And when you got home here. What do you normally do when you got back to your house? LS: In Washington, DC. CM: Yes. LS: Was it. No, just nothing just stayed with the wife, and we went to various places. I love this Smithsonian Institute. So we used to go there pretty often but till being in the army. I think we got a stipend of 250- $280 a month and we had to make that thing last I remember that she's we saved up so we could buy, one egg roll. CM: A fan of egg rolls? Are you a fan of egg rolls? LS: Oh yeah, I like, first of all, I like Asian food. CM: Can you remember where you tasted the best Asian food? LS: Where, what I'm sorry. CM: Can you remember where you test my bad, tasted the best Asian food. LS: Best Asian foods that actually were testing best for when I used to go to Japan. It's not the same. It's, it's, it's different. CM: Okay, so after working with amputees’ and everything you said you worked at a chemical plants. Correct? LS: Of work where CM: I'm sorry had you worked at multiple different chemical plants. LS: Work for a company first company was Dewy and Allyn Chemical Company, which was in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And then I took a job than on Long Island and I worked for a company called Rubber Corporation of America, mainly in plastics. Plastics was my forte. That's what I've always studied CM: Yeah. You mentioned that that's a quite a bit. And it's very interesting, too. But I want to ask, did you ever remember having to witness the implement of the stationary computers. Business computers into the workplace, like those giant machines on the wall that you plug in numbers to. LS: Oh, no. In fact, the first time I work with computers is when I left the army. When I went to work for Rubber Cooperation of America. They gave me a computer take home so CM: Cool. Did you like using a computer. LS: Yeah. Haven't been without one since. CM: Especially in this time I'm betting? LS: My wife has the laptop, of course, but I use the one stationary here in my office at home. CM: Yeah, I have a stationary too LS: I like it CM: Oh, let's see. So you mentioned. Actually, speaking of your wife and family and everything. You mentioned that you like to go camping, in Montreal. Correct? LS: Yeah, we had a camping trailer had a 16 foot. Uh what was it called I can't think of the name, but we used to do a lot of camping up and down the East Coast spent time of Florida Hollywood, Florida. I remember that, But I enjoy camping up in Canada. In those days you had no problems getting through into Canada. Long time ago. CM: Yeah. I've been to Canada. A couple times real nice up there, but I was gonna ask. Did you just like start camping out of a whim, or did you use to go camping before he had you got with your family and everything. LS: Oh yeah, when I was growing up in Brooklyn, New York, I belong to the Boy Scouts. So we always camp. And I just continue doing that. I enjoyed it. But my daughter never did. CM: So you were a boy scout when you're younger? LS: pardon CM: You were a boy scout when you were younger? LS: Oh, yeah. LS: Did a lot of things when I was younger. Some foolish some not CM: You got any stories from the Boy Scouts or was it just kind of a normal experience as you would say LS: Normal experience. You know, you read about what they what was going on with the abuse. We never had that in Brooklyn, New York. CM: Be my guess. I'll pause the recording. (Time passes for the phone call) Yeah, sorry about that. That's new. I'm definitely gonna have to talk to my phone provider about that one. LS: Interesting, though. CM: I know. so, uh, speaking of what is there anything about your life that you'd like to share discuss just anything that you thought you wanted to share from last time that you didn't get to? LS: I don’t know, growing up in Brooklyn, New York was an adventure because Coney Island was my stomping ground used to go there pretty often. And uh but that's really, that's about it. I enjoyed living in Brooklyn. My wife still has family there. So we go back occasionally, spent a lot of time in Coney Island. In fact, and Coney Island we were up on the subway, which is the L and we watch Luna Park burn when that the big fire. CM; Oh, yeah, yeah. LS: Then I think Trump put up his building or whatever. CM: So when I'm not actually I don't have to remember the date that have Luna Park apart burned do you? LS: What date. CM: The date when a Luna Park burn. LS: Don't even know how had to be in be in the early 50sif I am not mistaken. CM: I'll look it up later I was just curious if you knew off the top of your head. LS: No, I don't. CM: That’s probably fine. Well, I guess we've reached the last question, unless you have anything else you want to say before then? LS: That everything that CM: So if you had to give advice to, I guess, the current generation, what would it be if you don't have any that's fine. Just curious what you? CM: Great advice. LS: Have a sense of humor. CM: That is a good one….What do you think it's important to have a sense of humor? LS: What if you if you what? CM: Sorry, I was asking, why do you think it is important to have a sense of humor? LS: Oh, You can't be serious soul, your life and the lifetime. You got to find humor in everything. I think that levels you offer keeps you know basic. You know, if you don't have a sense of humor. I mean, like to be very boring. CM: Indeed, Okay. Actually, I did have one question. Did you ever go camping with your parents. LS: My friends? CM: Your friends or your parents? LS: No. First of all, my father came from Lithuania and my mother from Poland, so of course they do that, you know, they were of the older generation. No, we went most camping I did was with friends. When I was in a boy scouts or, when we got older and I had a family. We have a 16 foot trailer camper that we used to use. I Love that daughters and never did. But I did that the boys did of course. So we used to camp all the way up. Used to go to Hollywood, Florida. We camped up in, as I said in Canada. Those were the days when you get into Canada pretty easily, which you can't anymore. CM: Okay, well that's all the questions I had so unless there's anything again, you can think of that you want to add that would basically wrap it up. LS: I can't think of anything at this point. I think you did a good job. CM: Thank you. I hope my teacher thinks that too. LS: I hope so. CM: Okay, I'm gonna stop the recording. Now then. Okay. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lou Schneider Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 26, 2020 November 18, 2020 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Senior Memory Project Description An account of the resource An 89-year-old Koren war vet from Brooklyn describes his life history. From his time in Brooklyn as a kid. His experience as a medical core in Korea, and then finally his life after with his family as a chemical engineer. This interview was conducted as part of the Saratoga Springs Senior Center project “Preserving Our Past”. Language A language of the resource English (en) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cooper Murphy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cooper Murphy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Skidmore College Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio recording Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History 1950's camping Chemical engineer Korean War Medical Core oral history fall 2020 saratoga senior center https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4dce70b6d97dff7b5ff8fad59a69f0e8.jpg f5db0150df1738d7a6fd39881c6601f6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d750011810159bbca86bef97faed1820.mp3 945f7a959ea00f160e50778476244d5e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/62e9d0eb7d2e95f4232997a92f857029.pdf e6d26e99a8c113ee0e70c691c1885304 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/825f3e8f368418c84cc5a9f5c2f13892.pdf fda8701158f0b8726dc948502417985f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Andrea Wise Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louise B. Wise Location The location of the interview Newtonville, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:07:45 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 04/22/21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Louise B. Wise Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 19, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Louise Beinetti Wise, a 1940 Skidmore graduate, served as president of the then-College Government Association while a student and was active in the Alumni Association after earning a degree in theater. She joined the Admissions staff in 1970, serving six years as director and overseeing an era of growth in applications that continues to this day. After retiring in 1983, Louise maintained her involvement with Skidmore, serving on presidential search committee that brought David Porter to Skidmore in 1987. Named one of Skidmore’s 50 outstanding alumni in 1972, Louise also received an honorary doctoral degree at the College’s 1984 Commencement and an Outstanding Service Award at the 1985 Reunion. In 1983, the Louise Beinetti Wise ’40 Scholarship was created in honor of her talent, dedication and accomplishments. You can hear her describe the arc of her career in this interview.   admissions Campus Move coeducation Honorary Doctorate Joseph Palamountain Nursing Program Outstanding Alumnae Award Outstanding Service Award https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/59773922820231423385e2c9cd16de48.jpeg b7bde71a2085cbf827146f954c4065ef https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4ab6fe186e7c48b967e76bd3041179a2.mp3 83271aeea5c5b6bca0d309c8370951e8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Hernandez, Lhia Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Luisa Pina Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Luisa Pina Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/1/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Luisa expressed the impact and reasoning of her immigration_ from the Dominican Republic to the Washington Heights on her life, as well as briefly comments on Dominican and American politics. Language A language of the resource Spanish Abstract A summary of the resource. Luisa Pina is a mother of three in her mid to late 40s that immigrated to the United States from the Dominican Republic over 10 years ago with her two oldest daughters. She and her daughters came to Florida on vacation and stayed with one of the few relatives she had in the United States. In thinking only about her daughters, their quality of life, and opportunities here in the United States she decided to stay. About moving to Washington Heights, she mentions the advantages of living in a Latinx community as an immigrant and the differences between life in the United States versus Dominican Republic. Luisa comments on the impact Trump’s presidency and campaign has on her community as well as the influence of the Dominican government in people’s everyday lives while she lived there. This oral history tells essentially the story of an immigrant who despite being very family oriented moved away from loved ones to provide a better, safer life for her children. community culture Dominican Republic family Foreign Politics immigration Latinx Politics race Spanish https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cb5f7ef49ee0f852b375af1df6ba158a.JPG a5379b34b9f8d7b2e81dbc6f67477bc6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/fee930917bff555e7ca6745f6c9befc1.mp3 2ceb509aa169164404d1123f75f9d8d0 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4bd23a25821f43f95855bc1e6d80af85.pdf 403273b926af440dc079c44b3fc6abb5 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4b5bf42b44d47a48596c5a0142c7bc1f.pdf e13ff16f2dd4a9cdd15f6d1f45a8a50a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam, Sound and Story Project of the Hudson Valley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynne Gelber Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:00:59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynne Gelber Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 13, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Lynne Gelber, was at the college from 1966-2002 as a faculty and later chair of the Foreign Languages and Literatures Department (now World Languages and Literatures). In this interview she discusses establishing the first Skidmore-run study abroad programs in France and Barcelona (later Spain). She also reflects broadly on Skidmore’s move to the “new” campus on North Broadway and its transition from a women’s college to co-education. 4-1-4 Academic Calendar Anne Palamountain Campus Move coeducation David Porter Faculty Club Foreign Languages and Literature Palamountain Town-Gown Relations UWW https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/52ab92723c704591b1b834cc0ebbee47.jpeg ab73818b63105b44886d450727b70cf6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e8481d084fef3d59fdb03354eb3463b3.jpeg 3536f85970f0e045b3335dd49a0ecc5f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2be9343d515033e25fc2ceef534d1813.m4a d3581ed90a836be3d8fd3ecbc994f6f5 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b8c3aa18d4c60506b950276266241bb1.pdf 30eb502c3117fbb688293acf6f5b06f5 PDF Text Text Narrators: Lynne Mattinson and Stuart Whipple Interviewers: Conrad Kassin ’24 and Giovanni Jacobelli ‘24 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: Conrad Kassin [00:00:00] Okay. Recording, recording. So thank you so much for both of you guys for coming today. As you guys know, this is for our American labor history class. We'll be conducting oral history interviews based on labor in the Saratoga area. These interviews will be compiled with others, which will be archived for the public for future use and to look back upon. So today, me and Giovanni, my name is Conrad. We'll be asking questions. Giovanni, do you want to start asking the first question? GIovanni Jacobelli [00:00:27] Yes. So when, you can introduce yourself a little bit, and then tell us where you were born and where you grew up, and a little bit about your childhood. Lynne Mattison [00:00:38] So my name is Lynne Mattison. I grew up in a West Albany, New York, which is a little village outside of the city of Albany. I grew up in a blue collar family, so both parents worked. For, my mother worked for the state. My father worked for a meatpacking plant. So it was a very small knit community that I grew up. Stu Whipple [00:01:09] My name is Stu Whipple. I was born and raised in Saratoga Springs. Lived here my whole life, with the exception of two years away for college. I, as well, come from a blue collar family. Both of my parents actually retired from Skidmore College. My dad was the head baker, and my mom was a housekeeper. Conrad Kassin [00:01:28] So for a second question, let's just get straight into it. Please, can you tell us what do you do and how did you end up in Saratoga? Lynne Mattison [00:01:36] What do I currently do? I work at Saratoga Springs High School. I work in the attendance office. I have a clerical position at Saratoga. Stu Whipple [00:01:48] I'm a custodian for the school district. Saratoga school district. At the high school as well. And actually, my first job I ever had, paying job, when I turned 16 was working here at Skidmore College in the kitchen as a high school trainee, glorified name for a pot washer. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:02:07] What inspired you to get involved in labor issues? Stu Whipple [00:02:14] For me, that's a no brainer because my dad was the president here for years for the local 200D . My brother was the president for the Saratoga Springs Fire Department, and I took a union class in college. It was just. We have to. Lynne Mattison [00:02:33] So for me, my father worked at a meatpacking plant in West Albany. They had just started to unionize down there and then the meatpacking plant closed. So he ended up working for the town of Colony, and he felt that he needed to become active for the labor movement there. They would just CSEA was just starting to get involved. So he got involved. My mother worked for the state and she was, what we call building rep . But she was a chef steward for CSEA at the Education Department. So for me, I feel like it was born, bred, and raised into me. �Conrad Kassin [00:03:14] Very cool. So what was your first experience with labor organizing? Lynne Mattison [00:03:22] Mine was probably about when I started 25 years ago when I started at the school district. I was approached by the, I was approached by one of the custodians in the school that I worked for. He was running against our current president at the time, so he asked if I would support him and help him organize his campaign for him. That's how I originally got involved in Up Here. Conrad Kassin [00:03:50] And you had already been at that point somewhat bing introduced to labor organizing from your childhood? I see. Stu Whipple [00:03:57] Mine was just when I started here in 1985 as a high school trainee. I was exposed to it my whole life. It's something that interested me tremendously. And then when I started at the school district. You know, I as well was, Lynne has inspired me to do it. And that was, oh boy, probably twelve years ago as an officer. So and it's, it's just something that you're, lot of it is, a lot of it is instilled in you when you're younger and you see the fight that your parents do. And it goes from generation to generation, I believe. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:04:31] So you’re discussing how important and how it's a generational importance of unions. What challenges do people in your field face? Stu Whipple [00:04:42] Right now, we're having a big thing where people just don't want to join a union. And to me, for me, it's hard to understand why, because there's so much job security. I mean, I love having that guaranteed paycheck every other week. I love having my vacation time, my sick time, my pay. And, you know, that's just and I've been at jobs where I've had paychecks bounce. And they show favoritism. When you're this, everybody's the same. Everybody's treated the same. And that's what you want. You want unity. And that's what that's what the union is about. It's about everybody. Lynne Mattison [00:05:23] I agree with Stu wholeheartedly. And I think the other challenge that we face right now was when the Janus case happened, right? You no longer, you know, it wasn’t mandatory that dues came out. So the challenges that we face are getting out, doing intake meetings with no employees, right, new support staff and explain to them the importance of regardless of what happens with Janus, but the importance of why you should become a union member and like Stu said, you know, the guaranteed paycheck and the benefits and the, that and the, to be represented, you know, if you, if something should happen. So, for us, it's about the positives and the pros and trying to keep our movement moving forward, so to speak. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:06:11] What is this, Janus? Lynne Mattison [00:06:13] So Janus Case was. Stu Whipple [00:06:16] Started by a schoolteacher years ago in California. And they just, they said that they should not have to join a union if it's a union job. But the only problem is they can opt out of the union, but they still get the benefits of the union, which that's another thing that we have to fight for now. Because if you opt out, I'm still paying union dues. Why should you get the same thing that my contract that says union members, why should you get that? Why should you be entitled to that when you're not paying union dues? That's specifically for union members. �Lynne Mattison [00:06:52] I think it was about 2018 that the Supreme Court ruled in favor for him so that we used to have agency shop fee payers, people that didn't want to join the union but still had to pay that union fee. And then there was us. So now they, they, all they have to do is just write a letter to that union. Now they can opt out if you don’t feel like the union is being beneficial to you. Like Stu said, we're now having that uphill battle that they're getting the same benefits that we're getting and not having to pay union dues. So we battle that on a daily basis. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:07:33] We, we’re both not on the labor field yet. What does, what does union dues look like and how much is a union due and is it a… Stu Whipple [00:07:43] Union dues are based, it's different for every union. It’s like a certain percentage of pretty much, your pay. So if you pay $33 like we get paid every other week. So a 60 to say $60 a month. But okay, so that equates to 720 a year. That's $720 a year. That's huge for it's it's not it's huge in a sense of the protection I have and what I get for that. It's peanuts. Lynne Mattison [00:08:12] And there's a breakdown. I would have brought the breakdown. So there's a breakdown of, like, where your union dues go. So in the broader picture there's AFSCME. Right? And so they're the big parent company of the unions. So AFSCME will get a percentage or are like political? Political action gets a portion of it. So our union dues, and they stay local. They'll stay for our regional dues and our state dues. But there's an overall broader picture of why you would pay union dues. Free college we used to have, ASFCME started a free college that the government now took away from us. Conrad Kassin [00:08:58] So I had a question for Stu, because you mentioned early that that a lot of the new laborers are not interested in joining labor unions. And I just had a question, if you could attribute that to, is that a policy decision that that's leading to that outcome? Or is that a, is that just like union busting on a local level? Stu Whipple [00:09:15] I don't think it's union busting. I think some of it is people are thinking, why should I pay to work? I think that, but and the thing is, if they don't, then like when it comes time for voting for our union officers or our contract why would you not want that right to vote for who's leading you or vote for your raise? You have no say if you're not a union member. And I just think some of it is also maybe because we have a lot of twenty and thirty hour employees and the union dues, that little bit they have that, I think that's part of it maybe. Conrad Kassin [00:09:53] I see. So for my next question, what have you guys accomplished? What are your big accomplishments you would like to tout, I mean, you kind of already mentioned this as a benefit of the dues. You have some protections, but is there something about organizing that you've accomplished that you'd like to tout? Stu Whipple [00:10:09] I know one thing with our last contract or I would Lynne, she's our president of our unit, one of the big things is we got health insurance back and that's a huge accomplishment. 50% health insurance when I retire, cause that was given away years ago. But she fought hard for that, her and the other officers. And to me, that's a huge, huge benefit. 50%. When you retire as opposed to zero. Lynne Mattison [00:10:36] I think we face a lot of battles now, right when it when it comes to negotiating union contracts. So like money and like Stu said, so we, when we try you know we reach out to our members, we get feedback from our members and then we take �it from there. Like how are we going to organize this? How are we going to, you know, go into something big to be able to negotiate retiree health insurance for members like? When you when you try to organize, you stand your ground like you, you don't back down from the issues that you believe in. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:11:16] Going along the same. What do you wish to accomplish that you haven't yet accomplished? Stu Whipple [00:11:21] 100% union membership. Lynne Mattison [00:11:25] I agree. 100%. Yes. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:11:28] And going with that, what percent of union membership do you currently have? Lynne Mattison [00:11:33] Well, we currently we have eleven school districts within Saratoga County that we represent as a local. So at Saratoga, we probably have we're probably at about 90%. So we have about four hundred, four hundred and thirty support staff. So we are probably at about 90% at Saratoga. County level for our eleven school systems, we're probably about the same percentage, probably at 90%. We have that 10%, we have. So we, we do new hires, all the districts do new hires all the time. So it's important for us to get out there and to get out there and be able to reach those new hires to let them know that what the union is about and why they should be coming. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:12:25] Why do you think this 10% is hesitant to join the union? Stu Whipple [00:12:30] I think some of them, like I stated a little while ago, is if they're only going to be a twenty or thirty hours employee, any money they are earning they need. So maybe it might be the the union dues or, I hate to say it, but some people might have retired somewhere and had a bad taste, you know, got a bad taste from union and just don't want to be in a union. Lynne Mattison [00:12:58] Right. We have, I've noticed from new employees this year we we’re not, we're not attracting the younger generation. So a lot of the generation is that middle aged generation like forties and older. Right? So these are people that have left maybe private sector and now are coming into the public sector. So it's it, it, it becomes a tough sell to us sometimes to get them to understand why it's beneficial to be part of the union. You know what you get for this, um, how we help. How? So I see more of that generation than I am the younger generation. Conrad Kassin [00:13:47] So kind of to backtrack a little bit, Lynne, I was curious if you could talk a little bit more about on the ground advocating for labor issues. Can you talk a little bit about your experiencing and what does that look like on the ground? Lynne Mattison [00:14:00] So. So we also, so if we are at a delegate conference or a workshop conference. So we go to Lake Placid for a conference. Right. And they we're in Lake Placid, let's say, and there is a public department, public safety or public works department. And they're not getting a fair contract or they're not. So we will, sort of say, walk the line for them. Right? To show our support. To help organize with them. To show, you know, you're not in it alone. Right? That we, we will organize this group when we come and we bring our CSEA signs. And it's all about supporting one another regardless of what union you’re in. So we have CSEA. We have local steamfitters. Teamsters. We �have PFE we have, we have, have PEF. So. It's important to me for my eleven school districts to act, to have my members also get involved, to show support to the other unions that are around us. Does that help? Conrad Kassin [00:15:14] Yes. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:15:16] So you were talking, Stu, earlier about like some people have a bad taste of unions. What makes a union good and effective and something that people want to join like on an individual basis? Stu Whipple [00:15:26] Well, it all starts with the leadership, too. If you have leadership that just sits back and lets stuff happen. Our leadership in our unit, in our local, our region and our state, we're great. We're out there. Like, we do. What do they call the door knocking things? The blitzes. They’re called the blitz. We go to non, non-members houses and knock on the door and get them to sign up. So… Lynne Mattison [00:15:54] We do drive throughs. Stu Whipple [00:15:56] Drive through, yeah. Lynne Mattison [00:15:57] We do drive throughs. Stu Whipple [00:15:58] Movie nights they had at the drive-in movie night, you know, things like that. You're trying to get the people to join. If you've had a bad experience, we want to make it better. We're going to make it better. It's not that we want to. We're gonna. Lynne Mattison [00:16:14] And I think if you notice, so things the saying is things come around in a full circle. Right? So, a while ago it was union, union, union. And then all of a sudden you started seeing companies, corporations move away from the union. Right? Now, all of a sudden, that's coming back full circle. Right? You're starting to see people organize unions. Starbucks. Right? Amazon. So you're starting to see people come back to the blue collar community. Right? Want to bring back a union so that people can fight for their rights? Safe work environments, fair wages. So that's what we've become part of when we see another union, brother or sister struggling for them. We can't get a fair contract, you know, where their employer wants to lock them out. That's where we come in and we've become their advocate for that. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:17:10] You used the wording, brothers, sister. Is the union kind of a family almost? Are you very closely connected? Lynne Mattison [00:17:16] Yes. Stu Whipple [00:17:17] Yes, absolutely. It's a huge unity and great. Conrad Kassin [00:17:22] And it's definitely seen it seems to be at least also cross across unions, too. It's beyond just your individual unit. Stu Whipple [00:17:28] Because we were with, who do we, that. Momentum. We were walking down with them. Lynne Mattison [00:17:34] Yes, yes. �Stu Whipple [00:17:35] Down in, wasn’t that Schenectady or wherever it was? Lynne Mattison [00:17:39] Waterford. Stu Whipple [00:17:40] Waterford, yeah. Conrad Kassin [00:17:39] So on the topic of organizational, organization, can you talk a little bit about how your organization has changed over the years, a little bit, and how it's come to the position it is in today? Stu Whipple [00:17:49] The thing for me is the Janus thing that was a huge change. And that was. But we're, we're fighting on that we didn’t give up just because we lost that. We don't give up. We fight. And that's, that's just how it is. That's what's great about being in a union. We all get together and go, goddammit, it's enough is enough. We're coming after you. It’s not that we’re coming after you. We want what we deserve. Conrad Kassin [00:18:16] Absolutely. Stu Whipple [00:18:17] You know? Conrad Kassin [00:18:18] If I can build off that question, what is, the what is the maximalist goals here? Like, if you're saying we're fighting, what is, what is, you win, what is, what does that look like? Stu Whipple [00:18:28] Well, it just shows you the unity and what, what, what people are capable of, capable of doing. Lynne Mattison [00:18:33] Equality. Stu Whipple [00:18:34] Yeah, exactly. When everybody gets together and it's just, it's great. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:18:44] Why is it important to remember these stories of working people? Lynne Mattison [00:18:51] Because you're always going to have working people. Right? We're always going to have to blue collar people. Right? College is not meant for everybody. Right? The private business is not meant for everybody. So you're always going to have labor class working people. So for future generations, it's important to them. It's important for us to let them know. Right? It's okay to be in a labor movement. It's okay to be part of a union. Right? You know, it's okay not to have to go to a four year college and get this big degree that, it's okay to be able to feel like that and be able to go into working class and, you know, build your, build yourself up from there. Stu Whipple [00:19:39] Yeah, I agree with that 100%. You're always going to have us. Lynne Mattison [00:19:44] We're always going to be there. We are not going, as Stu said to you guys before. We're not going anywhere. Stu Whipple [00:19:50] We are not going away. �Conrad Kassin [00:19:54] I mean that, just I'm thinking, just that means a lot of think tells a lot about what Americans who America is really for and what we're really working here to achieve. Lynne Mattison [00:20:04] I mean, we're learning to rebuild America. You just said it. I think we're looking to rebuild America into what America wants. Conrad Kassin [00:20:12] And I absolutely and I think you really, you made a point that working people have always been here and they are going to continue to be here. I think it's just a matter of now we've acknowledged that. And I think it's we need to uplift these working people and then kind of they need to have their due. They built this country, and… Lynne Mattison [00:20:28] But I think you're seeing that again. Like I said, that was my whole you’re going around in a full circle. Right? Like everybody at one point, people felt like 'taboo' to a union. Right? And like and now all of a sudden, you're seeing that come back together. So, so people are starting to unite again and feel like we need to bring America back to America. And that if that means bringing America back and forming a union to get better work environment, better pay, just a better life then, so be it. Conrad Kassin [00:21:03] So my final question, I'd be remiss not to ask about the midterm elections and the impact on labor issues as today is November 8th. I was just curious if you could opine on what you think are possible challenges facing labor organizing following these elections? Stu Whipple [00:21:23] This is a very touchy subject. As you guys know, it's a very touchy subject. I've lost friends because I, they don't like who I support or cause I don't agree with them. That's not what it's about. We all got to get along. Lynne Mattison [00:21:38] I think it's it's the political arena is tough enough. Right? So. It divides even as a union, right? A union, they may support that one candidate that you may not support. But like Stu said, you know, bottom line, it comes down to, for us, who is the best candidate that's going to do the best job for us as a labor? Right? And, and, and really meaning, like we for our local elections and our school board elections here, we get involved like we actually interview the candidates and, and ask them questions like, why do you want us to endorse you? What is it that you're going to do for us? And I have to tell you, the candidates that are running for Saratoga County I don't care if they are Democrat or Republican that are running. They are very pro-labor and very pro-union either, whether they are Democrat or Republican working families. You will find that, that, that the candidates that are out there now are in support and they do follow through. Once they're elected, it's not like they, they're just out there. They will say that they will follow through with the labor movement. Stu Whipple [00:23:03] Because they would never get the support from us again. Lynne Mattison [00:23:05] Right. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:23:06] Do you think, uh, local politics is most important for union successes, or do you think it's a federal also? Stu Whipple [00:23:17] Well really. It like with us, it's, our union is divided into four sections. You got a unit. Local, region, and state. So it's definitely all four, well pretty much your unit, your locals is the region. So I would say your unit, region and state. But I would �say probably most likely all four. It is very important for all four. Because when you go to negotiate your contract as unit. If you have, you know, like for the city of Saratoga, when they go, they got the mayor. And all the other four, you know, the commissioners, you know, if you back the wrong person and then they lose and, you know, that's a tough, that's a tough, tough to do. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:24:10] So you've both been in the union for a while. Your family's been in. Have you seen failures happen and is it difficult to recover from failures? I know you'd say you keep on pushing, but sometimes. Lynne Mattison [00:24:21] Now failures. So define what you mean by failures. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:24:23] Like, getting push back. Lynne Mattison [00:24:25] You’re always going to get push back. Stu Whipple [00:24:28] Like when you negotiate contracts you don't, you're not going to get, you can go on with a list like this and go “here.” You're not going to get all that. You go in with a wish list and if you get three or four of them, that's awesome, because you know that you’re gonna. It's like going to a casino. You got, to go to a casino knowing you're going to lose, you know. But with this, you know, you go in and you go, okay, we got twenty items. We get three or four of them. It’s Great. Lynne Mattison [00:24:52] Right. And I, and I, with the pushback. So that's what, that's what makes you, that's what makes us strong right now. The harder, the more you push us, the more we're going to push back at you. Right? So it’s about not giving up. So push, they're going to push and we're going to push back harder. At some point, we're going to come to me in the middle. Stu Whipple [00:25:16] When you go into a negotiations. You're not going to, it's not going to be done one or two trips. It's going to be months, maybe years. Because the union just does not give up. And the leadership and the membership. They get together. They know what they want. If they don't get it. We're not approving it. We're not ratifying it. Conrad Kassin [00:25:37] What would you say to someone, a younger person like me or Giovanni, who is just entering the workforce and is failing to unionize or failing to achieve this level of unionization? What do you would you say to them to keep them motivated? Stu Whipple [00:25:54] Well, first of all, remember, it's a learning, it's a learning experience, too. You just, you learn. I'm still learning. And I've been doing it for a long time. But you learn all the time. You keep your head strong and if you see something, you go after it. What’d your parents always tell you? You see something, you go after, you know, because you got to realize it's your livelihood, too. You know, and that's, that's really what it is. It's your whole livelihood. Conrad Kassin [00:26:27] I think that was everything we wanted to cover. I cannot thank you guys enough for being here. It's been a real phenomenal conversation, I think. Is there anything you guys would like to add? Last words, the final thoughts. Stu Whipple [00:26:39] I appreciate you asking us to come. I think that for young guys like yourself. You know, that's awesome. Because it shows that you're interested in it. So hopefully we can get you into a union and a union job. Over here. �Lynne Mattison [00:26:56] There's labor attorneys. There's, you know, we have labor attorneys. We have labor relations specialists. Right? So it's not just about us, but, like, we have we have attorneys at the CSEA that are, become labor attorney . Stu Whipple [00:27:12] Health and safety people that, which is right now, as you guys know, you know, you see your sign over there. It’s huge. Our health and safety they were fantastic. So I mean, it's not, a lot of people think, oh, that's all the union, that's all it is, is this. No, there's a lot more to it than just that right there, just us. Lynne Mattison [00:27:32] But we appreciate you guys reaching out to us. Stu Whipple [00:27:33] Yeah, absolutely. Lynne Mattison [00:27:34] This was great for us. Stu Whipple [00:27:36] Yeah. Conrad Kassin [00:27:36] Thank you so much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Conrad Kassin '24 and Giovanni Jacobelli '24 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynne Mattison and Stuart Whipple Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:44 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynne Mattison and Stuart Whipple Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Lynne M. Mattison: I have resided in Saratoga Springs for the past 35 years. I have been active in the union for the past 28 years when I started working for Saratoga School District. I started on committees and worked my way up to a union officer. Union ties run deep in my family. I am currently the Local President of one of the largest Locals in Saratoga County and the Upstate Region 4. I also serve on various committees on the CSEA Region 4 level. Stuart Whipple: Born and raised in Saratoga Springs. My entire family have been and are active union members. I have been a union activist for the past 19 years . I currently am a Saratoga County Educational Local Officer which oversees 11 School District’s in Saratoga County. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/11fdca4550e5e2fae2b6c9d9b3b04e74.mp3 7fd8d83b1ccc146419a90e1cbc403248 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0820b301c08262c2bd676ad7276ef56f.jpg a131c649407fbceab4d1bf0d24ac384d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Evolution of Beekman Street (20th century-2016) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/13/16 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Skidmore College Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS: 113A Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College Description An account of the resource History of Beekman street, evolution of Beeekman, artist identities/roles, the future. Language A language of the resource English Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wave file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Zotero Interviewee Amejo Amyot, M'elle Pirii-Lee, Cecilia Frittelli, Interviewer Jonah Brenner, Amanda Peckler, Yuelin He, Max Lowe, Dejon Bunn-Constant Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Amanda Peckler Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed M'elle Pirri-Lee Location The location of the interview 62 Beekman Street Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 47 minutes Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview Interviewee- M’elle Pirri-Lee Interviewer- Amanda Peckler Location of Interview: Saratoga Healing Arts Center on 62 Beekman Street Date of Interview: 12/3/2016 00:00 Header 00:25 Introduction. Born May 1962 Denver, Colorado. 00:47 Lived in Denver until 9 years old. Grew up w parents and little brother. Parent divorce and mother lost job. Mother and her moved to Schenectady, NY. Family already lived in Northeast. 02:07 At 9 years old in 1st grade, family would travel to Adirondacks. Describes beauty of trees of NE that she wasn’t used to in Colorado. 02:50 Lived in Schenectady until age 22. Moved to Syracuse, Poughkeepsie. 2000 moved to Amsterdam. 2001 moved to town of Glen. Moved to Saratoga a few years later. 03:35 Describes her interest in alternative health and how it led her to Saratoga Springs. Originally on Region’s Street, which used to be Skidmore’s theater where current Bloom yoga studios are. 04:46 Met Joanne Halloran, a naturopathic doctor in Saratoga, who enabled M’elle to start up her private practice. 05:37 Discusses the spiritual healing history of Saratoga and the mineral springs. How it drew people to Saratoga because of the Saratoga Resort and the mineral healing baths. 07:12 Tells us about her specialized practice of myofascial release, similar to a massage bc used hands on body for healing. Discusses what fascia is and its purpose in and on our body. 10:59 Tells story of what inspired/ influenced her into this practice. Picked up on it in P.T school. Put this interest aside after graduating until 9/11. Just married to husband who was in National Guard, got called to be on duty during 9/11. Describes the stress and trauma of the situation being apart from husband. In order to stay busy, she would spend time doing agility classes w/ dog. On her ride home one day after being bombarded by people asking how her husband was doing when she had no way to contact him/ know how he was doing, realized she wants try something “fun and new”. Gets letter about taking classes on myofascial release. 14:44 Worked at a Developmental Center with people with developmental disabilities. Helped w/ those who had limited range of motion physically. Had one patient who was blind & suffered from spastic circumduction gait. Could not walk. Doctor would get mad at M’elle saying she was not “aggressive” enough when treating his range of motion. As gentle as she was, he would whimper and show signs of fear whenever he would hear her coming or hear her voice. When she started using myofascial release concepts and allowed time rather than simply stretching do the work, she saw positive results & less fear and pain felt by patient. 16:59 Husband went to Iraq w/ National Guard Unit. M’elle continued to take classes to keep busy. Set goal to start private practice that would deal solely w myofascial release. 17:56 Discusses how Beekman street in particular enabled her practice to blossom/ be made possible for herself. Found a home on Beekman once she visited the space for the first time. Felt it was an open and warm place, well-suited for the safety she wanted her patients to feel who she aims to help them through the healing they need. Loved the small community of the Arts District. 19:15 15 years ago, movement created to make this area into the “Arts district” to counter the “unsafe” reputation she describes the location had prior due to drugs. The locals wanted to “take back their neighborhood” and create space for artists to come and find live/work situations and produce art. Buildings became reclaimed. Named the building “Saratoga Healing Arts” so, they would fit in with the Arts District. 21:00 Discusses her personal connection to art through the non-traditional and complexity involved with the healing arts. Views every patient as an individual, can’t make assumptions about what they will need. Talks about perspective on different types of healing being their own kind of “art forms”. 22:50 A challenge she runs into on Beekman street is that she doesn’t take insurance & people are not used to that. Parking is also an issue because of restaurants. People who have trouble walking will have issues w/ physical access to getting to practice. 25:16 Agrees with the notion that Beekman street is a location where outsider’s come and find their own place within. Describes the eclectic mix of personalities and neighbors along the street, both in businesses and people who live there. Street fair in June, showcases the community and the artist district. 26:33 Tells story about the time she broke her wrist in May & couldn’t work. Set up a go-fund me account to pay for meals & many friends and neighbors on Beekman donated $$, gift cards, delivered food, help with anything. Felt strong sense of support and being included in the community. 28:40 Describes the openness she sees in the Saratoga area to alternative spiritual practices. Open churches & meditation sessions for anyone no matter their faith or even no-faith. Yoga in the park. Library meditations post 2016 election. Talks about that this is a call for Saratogians to take a stand for what is right, say no to discrimination and racism, and say yes to inclusion. 30:34 Creates a safe space in her practice especially in light of the election. Deals w/ physical trauma which is tied to emotional trauma. Creates a judgement free zone for patients to process whatever emotions may come up during a session. Tries best to keep politics out of the conversations she’ll have during sessions w patients so, that no matter who the person is & who they voted for, it is a safe space for them to process. 32:39 Recounts moments she had to handle situations where patients were emotional during a session. Things like mourning a death of loved one. Had to understand how to handle it if someone is vulnerable especially young people campaigning during the election who felt disenfranchised afterwards. 34:01 “Any emotion you express is a good emotion” 34:17 Discusses the importance of creating a safe emotional space for other human beings. Explains her feelings on those who are in chronic pain are held back from total healing due to this societal trend which encourages us to bottle up our emotions. “Big boys don’t cry.” “Big girls don’t get upset or get angry” There are physical implications tied to containing our emotions. “Issues are in our tissues” 35:48 Words of mentor, John Barnes “If you know what you’re doing before entering the room, you don’t know what you’re doing” (in regards to emotional knowledge of patients beyond their physical condition). Discusses how she handles having patients explain their stories to her that have led them to seek out her practice. 38:43 Always been part of a community even as she moved to a new place bc of family connections. Reflected on her difficult time connecting and believing in the “specifics of the Presbyterian church” which she had to join as a 13 year old girl. Believed in a higher power, but questioned the belief in the father, son, and holy ghost components of the religion. Felt guilty & couldn’t lie. Mother was accepting of this and encouraged her to explore other churches/ places of worship in neighborhood. Never really found anything she felt most connected to, but still remained open until this day. 41:46 Felt part of church community and events & singing. But, reciting prayers she didn’t believe in didn’t sit well with her. Would come to coffee hours and come to services for her joy of music, but never joined church. 43:19 Discusses her love of learning about other religions and cultures. Also, likes to focus on what makes those different practices similar to one another rather than the differences as a way of making the world a better, more harmonious place. “To have small differences in dogma or doctrine become so divisive in our country, I find very sad.” 44:44 Some of the similarities she found as a result of exploring different faiths as a 13 year old girl and throughout her life consist of: there is a higher power no matter what the name is, caring for fellow human beings and animals of this planet, being of service is important, and not judging. 46:00 Shares thoughts on positive experience living and working in Saratoga. Small town w/ many different amenities. 47:14 End Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with M'elle Pirri-Lee Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/3/16 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 12/6/16 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amanda Peckler Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS 113A: Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. M'elle Pirri-Lee, a licensed physical therapist at the Saratoga Healing Arts Center located right on Beekman Street, takes us into the realm of alternative medicine. She shares the importance and power in healing using methods such as physical therapy especially in times of hardship from her experience helping those with developmental and traumatic physical and emotional experiences. M'elle's narrative is one which brings great value to the evolving community that Beekman Street has always been known for. She also provides us a deeper look into providing and helping upkeep a safe emotional space in her practice and in the world around her. Description An account of the resource Oral history Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga Springs -- Beekman Street Arts District -- History Extent The size or duration of the resource. 46 minutes oral history https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a7f04e896cbe1009628b80ec5c50f14b.jpeg 9eb842488ea28462feaa6cff59217f34 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/997688abe335490bcc0811b5c4908a65.m4a 28b669c0d80ee2c3356f05da25dfb39e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Amara, Freddy Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Manuel Francisco Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Manuel Francisco Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/10/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Manuel (nickname Manny) taked about his life growing up in the city of Boston, Massachusetts. He is studying Game Design at Bunker Hill Community College in Boston. He shares his thoughts and experiences about being the son of two immigrants - his mother is from Puerto Rico, his father is from Honduras. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. Manuel Alexander Francisco, who is 24 and currently studying Game Design at Bunker Hill Community College, shared his thoughts and experiences with his neighbor Freddy on March 10th, 2017. Manuel was born in Boston as the son of two immigrants - his mother is from Puerto Rico and his father is from Honduras. He shares about what aspects of his life are and are not influenced by his family's culture. Tradition wise, his family does not celebrate traditional Puerto Rican or Honduran holidays, such as Three Kings Day. Instead, his family celebrates the usual American holidays such as Christmas or Thanksgiving. His grandparents (mother's parents) live with him, and they bring Puerto Rican cooking into his life with traditional dishes such as pasteles. Manuel does not speak Spanish, which was his choice, but says it would be useful for his job if he could. He discusses the benefits of diversity in Boston and forms of discrimination that Latinx people face in the city. The discussion turns to what Manuel believes is the future of Latinx politics in the United States, and he is optimistic that Latinx voters will make an impact.  Boston Computer Science Discrimination Diversity Game Design Holidays Honduras Latinx Pasteles Puerto Rico Spanish Traditions https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/06132d52f1ef8948f343635358135e71.jpg 36c9d3ab01003ff6012b70309c498154 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/27655ae9ba2744505e7cebfc0dbef633.m4a 1ff80bafbf9bb7e23e2f2c298e81d8b5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eberhardt, Sophia Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Woodworth, Marc Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, New York Skidmore College, Palamountain Hall Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data mp3 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eberhardt, Sophia Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound [SE] What was an av-average week at Skidmore? [00:00:06.418] [MW] I don't know, I was thinking about being here in the very early 80s, oh, I arrived in fall of 1980, and, what I was thinking first about was how much Saratoga's different, which may not pertain exactly to your Skidmore question, but, um, I remember my freshman suitemates and I went downtown and found a really, kind of seedy, backroom pool hall, and we used to like to play pool there once a week and it seemed to me, that that represents the kind of Saratoga that's no longer here. You know, it wasn't entirely upscale bourgeois at that point, it was still a little bit seedy in some places there were a lot of buildings that were unoccupied, there were a lot of storefronts without stores in them, um, I think there were, maybe, more, maybe this is a fantasy, but more, artistic people who, you know, could afford to live in Saratoga, rather than wealthy people, as there are now who can afford to live in Saratoga, so it feels like the, the, the feel of the town is considerably different. [00:01:13.403] Um, a normal week in town would also have meant, in those days, for me, taking the bus to Moore Hall, which was our dorm on Union Avenue, uh, [it] was the last dormitory that Skidmore kept from the old campus which was still in place, and was still, um, a place where sophomores, juniors, and seniors would live, so, I do remember the first year I lived there, taking the bus around twilight in the winter and feeling, you know I was kind of isolated and far away from campus, so it felt sometimes a little bit, uh, like you were out of the mix of your normal, collegiate life, which was both good and also a little strange, sometimes, [inaudible], um, so that was part of the week, definitely, going back and forth on the bus that I remember. [00:02:06.524] It was also, I think, the dorm that I would say, [had] a more bohemian element, that the college lived in, so there were a lot of, uh, artist types there, and, uh, people who thought of it as a little bit of a different place to live, on, on campus, so there was quite a cast of characters there, and, it had its own dining hall, so, um, of course there was still a dining hall on campus here, but it had- it retained its old dining hall which was Skidmore's old dining hall, so, um, the denisons of that particular dormitory would, you know, gather in that dining hall, I remember an interesting cast of characters, a guy named Clark who would always take, uh, the effervescence, or the carbonation, out of his sodas, so he would spend a lot of time filling up soda, uh, filling up glasses of soda and then with his spoon, uh, clinking, the spoon, around through the ice and getting the effervescence to get away so he could drink it [00:03:07.929] Um, there were quite a few people who were, you know, notably eccentric, and it was also, it must be said, at that time, um, quite a drug center I would think. You know, Skidmore didn't, I mean, Saratoga didn't necessarily have a lot of, uh, a lot of industry at that time, but I think there were a number of young people who were selling elicit drugs out of, out of Moore Hall in those days, um, there were some international students, I remember, who, you know, seemingly have a very lucrative full time job it seemed, outside of their studies, in those, in those days. And that seemed to be a little bit based in Moore Hall, so, uh, that was, you know that wasn't, that wasn't part of my week, because I was, I was on an abstinence plan, and I never took drugs of any kind, um, my mother, wisely, made me very [afraid?] of all that stuff, but there were others, probably, who did, so, [there would be?], there would be a little bit of, uh, that kind of element going on down there. But it was, you know, it was still almost the 70s, it was early 80s, and, I guess there was still some of that permissiveness, not that the college would've permitted it, I don't suppose, but it seemed, I think, a little looser now -- then -- than it does now, probably, in all manner of things, and maybe, maybe students weren't, weren't quite so, um, overseen, I guess, in a way. So that's not really much of a schedule of a week but a scan of reassociation. [00:04:37.098] [SE] Do you feel like the students who were on Skidmore's campus then reflected the community in the -- like, in the Saratoga public more, um, and does that correlate to how Skidmore students are with correlation to the public now? [00:04:53.924] [MW] Ya that's a good question, um, it's a little hard for me to remember. I don't feel, that at least, I and my group of friends had a lot to do with Saratoga, I mean, despite going to play pool in the pool hall or, uh, going downtown. When I arrived at Skidmore the drinking age was 18, so people did go to bars and certain ones were Skidmore identified, I would guess, so we, we -- uh, I guess we socialized downtown, maybe, you know, maybe earlier than some Skidmore students do now, but I don't remember having a lot of interactions with townspeople outside of, you know, people who worked at the bank, or bartended, or served food. So I don't know if that's different, I mean, you have a better sense of what it's like now, but it's not your interview, we don't have to talk about that [laugh]. Um, but it, it feels to me that the campus and the people on the campus are more intergrated and perhaps a little more welcome and also welcoming to the people of the town now than they were then, [it] seems still pretty separate, um, I think it was, it would have been, of course, quite a while since the school became co-ed, so it was, you know, no longer thought of as a women's college, but there were still many more women at the college than men, I think it was still 3 or 4 to one ratio, maybe, at that time. And, I think the town still, probably, certainley people who had been here for a while still thought of it as, as -- as a rather posh school for wealthy young women and maybe that made them feel that it was still a separate entity from them, um. And, certainly there were still, you know, kids of means who went to the college and kids who drove very fancy cars, the likes of which I certainley didn't have or wouldn't have seen, and, I think, you know, in this town that wasn't booming economically at that point there was still probably a perception that this was a place for the wealthy to go to school and that probably retained something of a divide in there, before. [00:07:01.722] [SE] Um, so, since you weren't really involved with, like, the Saratoga public when you were here, what factors made you decide to come here and teach and live here? [MW] Hm, well I suppose that had to do largely with wanting to come back and work with Robert and Peg Boyers on Salmagundi Magazine, so uh, that, that became, kinda, my family when I was here as an undergraduate and they became my family in a way, I was very close to them. As a student I worked on the magazine, um, and spent a lot of time in what I aspired to, which was kind of their adult world of being intellectuals and loving arts and writers, um, so for me, Skidmore represented, uh, that world very strongly, and it was something that I was powerfully drawn to because I was here. And when I came back I came back initially, in a way that maybe, wasn't necessarily, going to seem permanent, but, Bob and Peg were on sabatical. I had a reason to want to -- nothing criminal -- but I had a reason I wanted to leave where I was and do something else and, um, and there was this opportunity to come back and, and help on the magazine while they were gone, and teach a few courses, so I came back for those reasons, and it wasn't, I don't think, at all because I didn't enjoy Saratoga when I was here as an undergraduate, um, I did I loved the town and I loved walking in the town, I love the architecture, um, I loved, actually, some of the sense that the grandness of the town had become compromised, because people couldn't keep up the houses anymore and there were numbers of houses on North Broadway which seemed unoccupied, weren't used in the summer even, and weren't kept up, and that was true all over town. So it's still, it kind of had a, had a bit of, um, degenerated charm, in some way, which I liked in a, uh -- and the town had a lot of, uh, a lot of charm for me in that way so I, I always loved being here even if I didn't feel, you know, like I did all that much with people in town off campus. [00:09:22.806] Um, but, so coming back was not dictated by the fact that Saratoga is Saratoga but it certainly helped that it was an interesting town, um, and when I -- when I was here as an undergraduate I didn't have anything to do with Caffe Lena, but by the time I came back I was much more involved I guess with folk music and contemporary singer-songwriter music was something I cared a lot about in Boston and Cambridge when I was in grad school before I came back, and by, so by the time back, Caffe Lena was really on the map for me, almost immidiately when I got back here, and I spent a lot of time at Caffe Lena. One of my classmates at Skidmore was, at that point, running Caffe Lena, in the early 90s, and I, I came back in 1990, and I spent a lot of time at the Caffe, playing and hanging out, and sometimes helping and doing things there, um. I remember when Ani DiFranco, which may not be a musician you know or might be, was sending her first tapes around, and Barbara ?Harris?, who was the manager at the Caffe at that time, opened the tape and, I guess I came in later that day or that night and she said "Oh, I want you to listen to this, it's really different and I think it's something we should consider," and it seemed very out of the box for the Caffe, I mean, it was identifiably singer-songwriter, acoustic-based music, which was their bread and butter, but it was sharp and it was, you know, irreverent, and it was political and it was edgy, um, in terms of its sexual content, um, all things like that. [00:11:05.066] So it wasn't a given for Caffe Lena, which, you know, probably hadn't had that much edge in that way, and we listened to it together and thought "Wow this is great," so Barbara invited Ani to come and play, um, at the Caffe, and I got to open that show, which was terrifically fun, small crowd the first time, maybe 14 people, 20 people, I don't know, and she was just a knock out. So that's to say, um, there was a lot going on, still, artistically, in town, that I started to discover when I came back in the early 90s, and for me Caffe Lena was really central to that. And at that time, and I guess that's a good way to, sort of, answer, not so much how students interacted with town in my day, but how they did in the 90s at least, there were a number of students who were actively, um, involved in Caffe Lena either as volunteers or as musicians who played regularly or came to open mics, um, and so my students who became friends, uh, during that period would spend a lot of time at Caffe Lena too, so there was a real connection there, uh, for the students who liked that kind of music and wanted to involve themselves. So that was a really great bridge to town, I think, for a lot of people, and I believe, even though I didn't have that experience as an undergraduate, since the 60s that's been a really strong bridge between town and campus for people who like that world. [00:12:26.977] [SE] Do you feel like that's something that, like, music especially, is something that Skidmore values, and maybe how -- it's more of like how, what are some of the values of Skidmore that you have seen change, and that you hope to not change, and maybe some things that you hope to change, but, I know that music here is such, is such a scene and obviously that is reflected in the town as well and at SPAC and... [00:12:56.207] [MW] No, that's a, that's a good point, um, I'm trying to think back to undergraduate days in the music scene and, I think it was strong, I definitely knew a number of musicians and [had] a couple of bands of certain kinds that weren't particularly formal, I guess, but we did play, played out a little bit and there were certainly students who had musical inclinations and the culture was strong and certainly classical music culture at the college was strong then as well. There were, I think, already, no -- yea, maybe Filene, there were Filene scholars already, at that point, so some friends were gifted classical pianists, what have you. Um, and then certainly when I came back in the 90s there seemed to be, maybe, more musicians somehow, I don't know if that's true or quantifiable, and ever since there's been a great string of musicians, bands, individuals, singers, who have found that really important, so yea, I think the college has a definite, um, element that, that's highly musical, and not everyone, I suppose, finds their way to Caffe Lena, but, uh, those who do find that connection pretty strong, and -- I'm trying to think of some more stories of those early days, well, and um, Garrett ?Duten? who now is, I think his last name is Duten, who is the person behind G-Love and Special Sauce, went to Skidmore, which, uh, many people know, but uh I remember when he was in my class, probably in the earlier mid-90s, can't quite remember, um, he's played a lot at Caffe Lena, so he would go down there and, and do open mics, and maybe even had a show or two, I'm not sure, as a student I'm not positive about that, [00:14:47.061] and the [?apocrable?], maybe it's true, [mumble] but maybe [?a powerful?] story was that he told his parents that he really wanted to make a go at being a musician and they supported it with the provisal that if he didn't, within a year, sort of establish himself as a musician, um, he could go back to college and they would support his education, but if he took more than a year and then wanted to go back later, um, maybe they wouldn't, so, within a year, sounds too neat chronologically, but maybe it's true, he had a Columbia Records contract, and that was that [laugh], so there were some, certainly some gifted musicians who played there and, and people whos names you don't know, um, haven't had careers in music or were really talented, it was, it was a good scene, and uh, there was a lot of cross-over between how Lively Lucys on campus in those days and the people who were involved with Caffe Lena, um, Barbara Harris, the manager of the Caffe, whom I spoke of earlier, and I did some cross-over productions, so we'd bring shows to campus. I think when Ani got too big for the Caffe we had some Skidmore shows with her. We brought, uh, a singer-songwriter named Shawn Colvin, who was, um, just on the heels of winning her first grammy when she came to Skidmore for a performance that we, we had here, and those were, kind of, cross, um, promoted, as it were setup by the Caffe and the college and Lively Lucy's, so there was a lot of, uh, a lot of musical culture that was going back and forth at that time, in that way too. [00:16:23.973] [SE] Do you remember any notable performances either than Ani DiFranco? [00:16:29.566] [MW] Um, at the college, um, well I loved the Shawn Colvin show, that was terrific, and, um, and the thing I loved most about that night, perhaps, was that, um, I invited a young woman named Mary Lou Lord to open the show for her, and she was somebody I knew from Cambridge, Mass, and she was a street singer, she played in the subways and in Harvard Square and she was a terrific [00:16:54.073] um, singer-songwriter, and, at a time when the consolation of music meant a lot to me is to go listen to her play in Harvard Square in the subways, just sit there for a couple of hours and she introduced me to a lot of musicians and thier songs, she's a real advocate of great songs, and a great chooser of songs to cover, um, and I just loved her and her work and she was, uh, a close friend of Shawn Colvin, as it turned out and they became friendly, I don't know how Shawn and she found one another. Anyways, so that was a great thing because she got to open the show for Shawn, it was a big sold out house at, um, at u, JKB, and she just won the Grammy, Shawn had, so there was a lot of buzz about the show and it was really packed and exciting, it was a really great show. That was a wonderful show. And then, there's a, there's a New Hampshire singer-songwriter, um, who died a couple of years ago, sadly and prematurely named Bill Morrissey, and he had a show at the dance theater that Lena and Lively Lucy's put on together and I remember that he had a great Irish fiddler named Johny Cunningham who's played with a lot of Celtic bands and it just a terrific musician and Bill himself is a very gifted, kind of literary singer-songwriter, um, who actually had a novel published by Knopf, or [?book of great editors?] who's very literate, interesting singer-songwriter, and I, I love that show, he was very, he was very wry, very great on stage, and that was the show that, that I met my wife at actually, so she came to that show and we met there, and that was the first time we had met one another, which was exciting, of course, so that was a memorable show, and I got to introduce Bill that night and, I don't know, I said something modestly funny, and for some reason Billboard Magazine was convering that show and so they ended up writing a really good live review of the show and they also included the thing that I said, which was supposedly funny in the introduction, which is, you know, kind of weird for this little show at Skidmore, would end up in Billboard, and weirdly a quote from me would end up in a Billboard article, so, I, I remember both of those shows pretty well. [00:19:17.595] Um, and we had a lot of good Lively Lucy's shows and um, I, I guess, it's, what is it now, is it Earth Fest? What do we call it? Something like that... [SE] Earth Day. [MW] Earth Day, sorry. Um, so, it seemed, before that became quite as full-blown as it has been for the last decade or so, it used to be kind of a Lively Lucy's, outdoor, spring music day, um, and I think it evolved to include more facets as it has now, but there were lots of really good events, musical events, around that as well. [00:19:49.084] So, and then that, I guess it was more folk-based then, too, it was more of a singer-songwriter and folk-based show than it necessarily is now, and it was some really beautiful April days just out on the green listening to really good music, um, [?that was a piece?] of those days, musically too. [00:20:07.714] [SE] Do you feel like, as a music writer, you've been able to, you know, excel in this environment? Or do you ever feel like you should be living somewhere else? [00:20:21.757] [MW] No I actually, I've never thought, I've never thought that, but now that you mention it, I suppose, because it's a place that is welcoming for music and has a lot of students interested in music, it's been possible for me to imagine courses and to, uh, figure out a way to include in my teaching life, um, the study of music, in, in a way that I certainly didn't when I first came here. I mean, I would teach classes in writing about the arts and we would include some musical writing as well, that was there from the beginning, but then to feel able to design and offer courses that have to do primarly with music and music writing, um, has probably something to do with the fact that musical culture here, um, which is more of a teaching than writing myself, but, um, but, but I think being around so much music and finding it possible to see so many good things that had been used, like SPAC for bigger shows, or Caffe Lena for smaller shows, has been necessarily something that's kept my head wrapped around music a lot, and maybe that wouldn't happen in a different place as much. [00:21:36.331] Um, and maybe the fact that we're pretty approximate to Boston or New York is - a chance to go see music in those places - is possibly significant, but, but you know that's a good question to think about and to think about how the writing of mu-, about music is place-based, I've never really thought of that before. [00:21:58.238] [SE] Um, you just mentioned how you took a course in writing about arts, and I guess, on a broader term, how have the courses offered at Skidmore changed and hopefully have gotten better? Are there any courses... [MW] [speaking over SE] Ya that was a course actually I taught, not took, but, um, just, that was a class that I used to teach a lot for first-year students who took a writing class in English, as they still do, called 105, um, I don't know, I found I because I have a kind of independent, not independent, but kind of hybrid position because I'm editing Salmagundi and serving in that capacity and also teaching as lecturer I'm not teaching as much as people who are full-time faculty, um, I found that the English department, and more broadly the college and MDOCS, has been very open to my proposing different things to do, which, I think, is a hallmark of Skidmore, you know, the ability of the institution to, uh, use the energy and, and interest of its faculty to come up with things that might increase the opportunities for students to do different things and find a way to make that happen. [00:23:18.981] So, that's always seemed to be a hallmark of the institution, is, you know, "this sounds like an interesting idea, how could we limit that instead of saying 'no that's not in the curriculum' or, um, 'we don't have that kind of course, so, I guess we shouldn't have that kind of course.'" People tend to, if it's a good idea, try to make it happen, and I think that has added, I'm just speaking from my own personal experience but I'm sure that's true for any number of faculty who proposed new courses and figure out how to, you know, implement what they, what they really love to teach in the classroom, I think, um, that's probably something that creates a lot of good energy around what we offer students. Is it different than what happened in the old days? I'm not sure if it was more rigid then or not, I don't know. Um, but, I've always appreciated the openness to ideas and the openness to encouragement of new things that [inaudible] the academic life that I've experienced here, at least. [00:24:17.210] [SE] Ya, that's great. Um, kind of to direct it back to something you said much earlier, you said that you were living at Moore house... [MW] Moore Hall. [SE] Moore Hall, Moore Hall, um, were you here when the campus got switched to... [00:24:30.793] [MW] No, that had happened probably, what, 72... so it was probably about eight, eight or ten years before the switch was happening, I don't know when it was completed. So that was, like, the last dorm, and they kept that dorm for quite a long time and people lived there, I'm not sure, they just tore it down this year, as, um, as they've started to put up condos on that, on that spot, um, and it was a, you know, terribly ugly, but endearingly ugly, building [laughter from SE] that was made of pink, um, rock-like material that was supposed to age to gray, an elegant gray, but it never did, so it was known as the "Pink Palace" and, you know, it-it was kind of a, I don't know what it was -- a 1960's, kind of, failed cubist design that looked very different from anything on Union Avenue, that's for sure. [00:25:20.402] And it had no trace of Victoriana about it, whatsoever, so um, so no I didn't experience that switch, and, you know it was interesting though to be part of that vestigial campus that was downtown because, you know, I also, I also loved the fact, when I wasn't taking the bus that we would walk to campus, which was a significant, a significant walk, a 20-25 minute walk, and just to be part of town in that way and really experience the architecture of the beautiful, old buildings that, that lined all of the streets, and to feel like Saratoga had a deep history, and it had, uh, a sense of place that wasn't fully dependent on the college, though the college was part of that sense of place, seemed to be really important, and, and, you know, it provided a kind of depth to your experience here, I guess, as a, as a student or as a person that is not insignificant. [00:26:13.189] I mean there are so many wonderful colleges within a very short reach of here, um, and some of them are in, you know, tiny towns essentially out in the middle of the country and, I think we have a special, uh, a special reality here because of the town's deep history and what's available to us, maybe the most notable aspect of that is the architecture which we can see and experience and walk past each day, and that gives us that sense, but then the more you start to understand the town as a whole and its history and what's gone on here and how it was first an Indian -- Native American healing place and then became, also, a healing spring for white settlers, um, and established itself in that way, that long history is not what you have everywhere. [00:27:08.412] [SE] Yea... [MW] So... [SE] Yea. Um, so I guess to wrap it up, how do you define your relatinoship with that Saratoga history that you were just talking about and also just Saratoga today and especially Skidmore College. [00:27:26.818] [MW] Hmm, um, I don't know, I find [that] because I grew up in an area of Massachusetts, um, I grew up in Carlisle but my friend was from Concord, the next over, which has itself a very rich history and was, you know, obsessed with the American Revolution when I was a boy and I went to high school in a town where Thoreau and Emerson wrote and were buried, that, it's sort of unthinkable to me to live in a place that I don't know the history or care about it, so for me, understanding upstate New York history, which I didn't know that much about, coming from Massachusetts, and starting to look into the Native American history around here and how this land was contested by the Mohicans and the Mohawks, the Iroquois and the Algonquian, different peoples, and how the Dutch influenced the area -- that's become something I've really spent a lot of time reading about and thinking about and that I'm deeply interested in. [00:28:30.077] So, so for me part of, part of being a Saratogian is, is really having a sense of the importance of that past and the detail of that past as much as I can and that makes the place, for me, livable, in some way, I mean that's really important to me, is to-is to have a sense of place of -- a place's history, and, you know, there's a lot more to learn, I don't know anything like all I could but what I do know has made this place feel rich and feel very much like home or a home, um, in a way that it wouldn't if it didn't have history. [00:29:08.296] And Skidmore's sort of impossible to think of in any objective way outside of my own experience because it's been home for so long, you know, aside from, um, six years when I was at graduate school , you know, I've lived here since I was eighteen years old and it's inextricable from every development that's -- that I could imagine for myself I suppose. Um, and, it's really where I, you know, as a-as a place, as, Skidmore, as a place where I lucked into a relationship with some of the smartest people I've ever met who are incredibly good-hearted and incredibly brilliant, um, in the English department, in Salmagundi-at Salmagundi, uh, Magazine, at the development of my love of literature which I came to Skidmore with, but which changed and deepened when I was here, uh, and continues to do that and to talk, you know, in these offices with Robert and Peg and our student assistants and other colleagues in the department about work that we love and to communicate with some of my favorite authors who I happen also to be friends and contributors to our magazine seems like a really extraordinarily rich way to live and to me that's completely inextricable from Skidmore and from living in Saratoga. [00:30:35.810] [SE] Yea, that's great, that you so much. [MW] You're welcome, thanks. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marc Woodworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Spring 2018 February 21st, 2018 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with professor and alumni Marc Woodworth. He discusses his time as a student on campus versus as a professor, and life as a Saratogian in general. Language A language of the resource ENG Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eberhardt, Sophia '19 1980s 1990s Caffe Lena downtown campus Lively Lucy's Moore Hall music public history Salmagundi Skidmore faculty https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a3c6de964e9d0c5ffae417dcf4bf9023.jpg e72aecd7864005e4c32335f4b24d4830 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/7184a8e95d459547a89e78ea836e75c0.mp3 3f231166f5baa8549fbfc37ae95706bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Florada, Dresita Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Margarita Florada Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Margarita Florada Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/28/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Margarita talked about her experience of moving from Puerto Rico to Boston and her identity as a Latina Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. Margarita Florada participated in an interview conducted by her daughter, Dresita Florada, over Skype. She discussed her transition in moving to Boston from Puerto Rico in order to attend school at Boston College. She studied law and is currently a Dean at a community college in Massachusetts. She and her Irish American husband raised their two children , 23 and 19, in Boston, Massachusetts. She confronted her discourse with her Latinx identity in regards to the gender roles that were imparted on her which she did not wish to adhere to. Because of this she feels less connected to Latinidad as an identity, however, even though that disenchanted her from it and urged her to raise her children with different ideals in regards to gender, she will always identify as a Latina. She also further discussed her identity in regards to her own diverse cultural background which includes Lebanese and Corsican heritage. Issues surrounding the current Puerto Rican debt crisis and whether or not she thinks independence or statehood would ever be a possibility for the island are discussed. College Economy education ethnicity family Gender immigration Independence Latinx Politics Puerto Rico race Workplace Relations https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1d0decd7cae4c8d9a9cf92264140ab8a.jpg 185661567a4eee1e90ba5472de63fc8e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/91b2e1568aae5055163a8066e45bc9fa.jpg 93b17503f47209eb550474d315dfac68 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/bec16166dc13cdee04ba6bfff7561d69.mp3 dca55be6b4bf9e3e7f0f75b931343105 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/80022f46ff004e89bae726a6f81e2703.m4a c2f648c11b50f43b4e7fcbcbeccfcc47 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Zepeda-Carranza, Bryan Bailon, Charles Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maria Lander Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Maria Lander Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/27/17 3/31/2017 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource In one interview Maria Lander discussed the impact of U.S. culture in Venezuela. In the other, Maria talked about her experience living in the U.S and how she has trouble with identity because of the way that people in the country view her and the Latinx community. Listen and watch: <iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/214432592" frameborder="0" width="640" height="360"></iframe> <p><a href="https://vimeo.com/214432592">Interview with Maria Lander</a> from <a href="https://vimeo.com/user39722229">MDOCS</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p> Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. Maria Lander is from Caracas, Venezuela and emigrated to the United States about 20 years ago. She is currently an Associate Professor for Spanish and the Chair of the World Language Department at Skidmore College. In this interview, Maria talks about her experience in the U.S and her identity playing a huge role in her life. She explains the reason behind why she is conflicted with her identity and how sometimes she feels guilty using the term Latina. This is connected to the way people in the U.S portrays the Latinxs community and the stereotypes the people in the countries have for these groups of people. Maria Lander is a professor here at Skidmore who emigrated from Venezuela to pursue a PhD at Brown University. After finishing her studies, she decided to settle in the U.S. after meeting her future husband and starting her own family. On occasion, Maria has visited her native country again allowing her to experience a unique perspective as a woman that was raised in the country before the effects of a political transition that shook the country. Maria still communicates with her friends and social acquaintances from her undergraduate studies through social media as a medium to discuss and debate various topics including politics. As an immigrant from Latin America, Maria’s perspective of the U.S. is imperative in analyzing the latinx identity. bicultural culture foreign identity immigration influence Latinx Oral hisotry Skidmore College Skidmore faculty Spanish Professor Venezuela https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/83bbceda3128c631dce036c738827465.jpg d861c33a11264d44c82182f190b5eb21 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/021239f9f5a34591e5b61bad217e7731.m4a a6d67ffc78eb6eabac60a75a977cf170 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8f03630b1b60a2ff74c6a0e4597b8e40.pdf 42e33348c84c7342dc2dcc74b9f42748 PDF Text Text Interview with Mark Hofmann by Leslie Mechem, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, August 13, 2024. LESLIE MECHEM: This is Leslie Mechem interviewing Mark Hofmann for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project on August 13, 2024 in the Skidmore Library. Good morning, Mark, and welcome. MARK HOFMANN: Good morning. Thank you. LM: Where did you grow up? Can you tell us briefly about your childhood? MH: Sure. I grew up in Pattersonville, New York, which is a little village halfway between Schenectady and Amsterdam. I was the youngest of four boys. My father worked for Knolls Atomic Power Lab as a project manager for nuclear power plants for aircraft carriers and submarines. But Pattersonville is very out in the middle of nowhere, very rural. It was ideal for a kid at that time. We spent a lot of time outside, spent a lot of time in the woods, running around. In the summer times, we spent every summer on Canada Lake in the Adirondacks, which was really idyllic and I feel very privileged that that occurred. I mean, we would go up right after school started and we would come back Labor Day. We were in a place where the only access to it was by boat or walking in. We spent all summer outside, barefoot, and just enjoyed it. I feel very privileged. LM: Great. When and how did you first come to Skidmore? MH: When I graduated from graduate school, I was looking for small liberal arts college jobs, because I went to Bates College, and it was a really good experience for me, so I knew that's what I wanted to teach at. I didn't want to teach at a big university. So I applied to what was available at the time, and it came down to St. Lawrence or Hamilton. I really wanted the job at Hamilton, but they didn't give it to me, so I took a job at St. Lawrence, and St. Lawrence is a very nice school. Canton, New York is a little isolated. After three years there, our discussion was if I get tenure here, is that a blessing, or, is it a sentence? So I started looking for other jobs and I applied to, at that point, maybe three or four, one of which was Skidmore, one of which was Bates. Both Skidmore and Bates offered me jobs. If you have ever been to Lewiston, Maine, it's Saratoga, Lewiston, Saratoga, Lewiston, and particularly, we decided we didn't want to be in Lewiston even though Bates was, at that time, a much more established school with a much better reputation. So in 1985, we moved to Saratoga and I started at Skidmore. LM: So what made the Skidmore offer so appealing? Was it primarily Saratoga or... MH: Yes, yeah, yeah. It was location. LM: Okay. Could you describe for us your position at Skidmore and the work that you did? MH: Well, I was a professor in the Math Department, Assistant Professor, Associate Professor, Full Professor, whatever, and did the usual teaching. I did very much enjoy service and Page 1 of 8 �got involved with a lot of different committees. Eventually, I became department Chair. I was department Chair for five years. During that time... Maybe it was during that time, maybe it was before then, I was on the Search Committee for Phil Glotzbach. Prior to that, I had been on CAPT, and I think that's why I was chosen to be on the Search Committee, because when I was on CAPT, the College was searching for a president, and the candidate was Jamie Studley. CAPT didn't really like the process. We objected to the fact that there was only one candidate. And so we were asked to endorse the candidate, and we refused to do that. We said, "No, you haven't given us enough information." So when I was interviewed for Phil's search committee, I talked about this, and I think that's why they said, "Oh, okay. We'd like you to be on the committee." And I was very much the junior member of the committee at the time. It was Terry Diggory, Caroline Anderson, Jeff Segrave, and me. So it was like, I'm the little guy. And then after that, I was actually Co-Chair of the Search Committee that hired Muriel Poston. And after Muriel was hired, she asked me to be her Associate Dean and I was not really wanting to do that, but I really felt that I couldn't say no if we're asking her to come here and she was asking for help, then I couldn't say, "I'm sorry, I'm not going to help you." So I agreed to be Associate Dean. But I agreed to be Associate Dean for two years, because at the end of those two years, I was scheduled to teach in London, and there was no way I was giving that up. LM: What do you consider significant initiatives that you were involved in? MH: Certainly the most significant was building up the sciences at Skidmore. And when Muriel asked me to be Associate Dean, she was a scientist, she was hired primarily to build up the sciences. That was what we were looking for in an Associate Dean at the time... Or, I'm sorry, in a Dean of the Faculty at the time. But when I became Associate Dean, she said, "I want you to handle the science side of it." So I said, "Okay." And during my tenure as department Chair, there was this group that was established by Bob DeSieno. I beg your pardon, that's not correct. There was this group established by Barry Pritzker called the Science Planning Group. And he established that primarily to look for common grant opportunities, but as department Chair, we'd go to this meeting once a month, and I used to call it the Science Moaning Group because essentially what happened was all the Chairs would complain about not enough resources, da, da, da, da, and they would significantly complain about each other, and the sciences were very un-unified in the sense that some of the sciences felt that they were the Natural Sciences, and then there were the unnatural sciences, primarily Psychology, Exercise Science, and whatever. So when I was Dean, I was initially in charge of Science Planning Group, and then we created a Science Task Force, and the biggest challenge was to get the science people to talk to each other and realize that we weren't going to get anywhere until we started working together. And that was the biggest challenge. Eventually, they came around. We wrote a working paper that went to the Board, and eventually, the Board agreed after many, many years. Actually, after I came out of the Dean's Office, I went to London. When I came back, Muriel asked me again to lead the science initiative, and I agreed. Page 2 of 8 �And it took us maybe four or five years to get the Board to agree that, "Oh, yeah, we should build another building." And that was the biggest step and hurdle. LM: Other initiatives that you were involved in? MH: Apart from... I mean, nothing major. I mean, there was a lot of different committees. I was on CEPP, I was on CAPT twice. I was on Porter Scholar Selection Committee for 20 years, and that was extremely rewarding. One other thing that gets lost is that Skidmore had a Prison Program, and I taught in the Prison Program for 10 years, and that was one of the most rewarding things in my career. LM: What was rewarding about that? MH: The difference in classroom attitude, particularly at the time because Skidmore went through this period in, say, the '80s when student attitudes weren't as strong as they are now, and there was some question about student motivation. But you'd go to the prison and you'd walk in the room and they were motivated. I mean, you went in, when you came out, you were just energized by the classroom experience. LM: Weren't you also involved in the Engineering Program? MH: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was head of the Engineering Advisory Committee for five, six years or so. Well, one of the things we did there was we had a articulation agreement with Dartmouth and with Clarkson, and we formed one with RPI. And as I left, we were trying to form one with Columbia, and I'm hoping that that's something that happened with that, but maybe not yet. LM: Mark, could you describe the Porter Scholar Program a little bit? MH: Sure. Porter Scholars were established in honor of David Porter to increase students in science. Initially, students were awarded $10,000 a year for their four years. It started off pretty slowly. One of the issues was we had a committee who would sit down and just look at applications and decide these students we want to be Porter Scholars. We'd award them Porter Scholarships and they get this letter and they'd say, "What's that?" Which makes me... Don't forget to talk about S3M. LM: Okay. MH: Yeah. Eventually what we did was require the students to write an essay. So they had to indicate that they wanted to apply for the scholarship, and that really helped a lot. Over the years, you could always tell the Porter Scholar in your class because you'd have a class of students and there would be one or two really shining lights and you'd find out afterwards they were Porter Scholars and you'd say, "Oh, of course." And one of the best classes I ever had was in 19... No, it wasn't. It was in 2018, Honors Calc III, and I think I had four Porter Scholars in it, including David Porter's granddaughter. But it was just a wonderful class because age of cellphones, you go out of Page 3 of 8 �the class, you come back in, and what are students doing? They're all scrolling through their phones and whatever. I'd go out of the class and I'd come back in, and they'd be talking about math and science and whatever, they'd got together and had integral solving contests amongst themselves. LM: Great. MH: Yeah. So S3M when Muriel was Dean, we were looking for ways to increase diversity in the sciences. And so there was a National Science Foundation Initiative for grants in that direction, so we wrote... Actually, she wrote a proposal prior to my being in the Dean's Office for the scholarships and the NSF turned us down. So when I was in the Dean's Office, I rewrote the proposal and we submitted it again and we were approved. And so that awarded money for students from diverse backgrounds, non-traditional in the sciences, and it was like six to eight a year. The NSF funding ran out after four years. They reapplied, and they said, "No," which I thought was understandable because the program was to help you to establish a program, not to... So we convinced the board... I beg your pardon, we convinced the President's Office to continue to fund it without the NSF funding, and it's still going. LM: How much was that? MH: That's a little bit different in that it was much more need-based, and the first thing we did was eliminate all Student Loans, and then they would up the other components. But the other aspect about that, too was it was also a summer program where the students in their second year, or between the first and second year, are invited on campus in the summer to do research, and they form these different teams and hook up with different science research experience. LM: Yeah. That makes an important connectionMH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. LM: ... among students and faculty. Yeah. What were the major changes that you experienced at the college? MH: I just think from 1985 and on, Skidmore's just been going up and up and up and up. I mean, just a gradual increase in quality in students, increase student engagement, and it's not one single event. It's just this rise that made it fun and made teaching very fun. LM: So a little different from when you first came? MH: Yes. Yes, quite different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you remember this term, the smart slacker. I think admissions at one point recognized that Skidmore had a reputation for recruiting the smart slacker. So it would be a student who did okay in high school but didn't really push themselves and perhaps had ISAT scores, and that they were recruited and they would come and they would be smart slackers. Then admissions at one point Page 4 of 8 �started emphasizing high school performance over SAT score to the extent that now, as far as I know, SAT scores are no longer required. LM: I think that'sMH: I'm positive that that's trueLM: Yeah. MH: Yeah. From looking at Porter Scholar stuff. LM: What were the greatest challenges you faced during your time at Skidmore? MH: Well, again, pushing the sciences, getting higher administration to recognize the importance of the sciences, getting development to recognize the importance of the sciences. At one point, I was chair of the Review Committee for the VP for Finance, rest his soul. But there were a lot of people in... Not VP for Finance. VP for Advancement. A lot of people thought, "Well, what we're doing for the sciences is enough," and that we shouldn't be asking for more. "We don't need to advance the sciences at Skidmore." And there were other people that recognized that it was the only way that we're really going to survive, and I think that's one of the biggest changes is that now sciences are front and center, and I think that's a good thing. Of course, I'm a little prejudiced. LM: Were you involved in the planning of the science building? MH: Not the science building. Once the board agreed to fund the thing, I said, "Okay, I'm done." Because I had been working at it for eight years or so, and at that point some really smart and ambitious people like Corey Freeman-Gallant and Karen Kellogg kind of took over. And I said, "All right. I don't... Yeah, that's enough for me." LM: Okay. What are your fondest memories of your time at Skidmore? MH: Students primarily but also faculty colleagues, just it was a great place to work. And up through the pandemic, I never ever felt like I didn't want to come to work. I mean, the pandemic changed things a little bit, but I was kind of on my way out at that point anyway. But working with faculty colleagues on various committees was very rewarding. It was just a really great experience. Riding up to the prison with a car full of your fellow faculty was also very interesting and rewarding. It was a great program for you to get to know faculty from other departments. LM: With whom did you ride and connect? MH: Gerry Erchak, Jeffrey Segrave, Pat Oles, Rudy Sturm. LM: Oh, wow. Page 5 of 8 �MH: Just lots of different people. LM: What activities have you been engaged in since retirement? MH: Well, the primary thing is we sold our house. My wife, Linda's from Wales. We got married in Wales in 1975. I lived over there for a couple of years before I came back to go to graduate school because the UK government didn't want to fund me anymore. So we spend a lot of time traveling to Wales. We bought a house in Wales in 2021, so we could travel back and forth. We sold our house in Saratoga shortly after I retired, which was a big project, and we bought a place in Ballston Spa, and we're kind of trying to sort our lives out, and what does retirement mean, since then, and we're kind of getting there, but I don't think we're quite there yet. LM: Takes time. MH: Yeah. LM: Okay, Mark, that's great. Anything else you'd like to tell us about? MH: Well, yeah, one of the things that was really great was teaching in London. I was able to do that twice. Once in 2008, and once in 2014. Then after 2014, I applied every year and I was told, "You'll never do it again." And unfortunately, I was not able to do it again. But they were both great experiences. It was nice living in London at Skidmore's expense, and Skidmore gave you enough funds to rent a place. The first time, we rented a terraced house right near Waterloo Station, which was fantastic. The center for London at that point was right next to the British Museum just a couple two or 300 yards down from the British Museum. It was great walking in every morning, crossing over the Thames. The foot traffic was amazing. I mean, there was this kind of rush-hour commute of people walking to work. And it was a great experience. I mean, the idea was you were asked to teach something that involves London. And my LS course, which eventually became my First-year Seminar course at Skidmore, was Math and the Art of Escher, which is not very Londoncentric. So I had read a book called Longitude by Dava Sobel, which is all about... if I can remember his first name correctly, I think it's John Harrison's quest to find a working ship clock, which he did manage to do, he did manage to successfully construct one, and it's the key to finding one's longitude at sea. All of Harrison's clocks were at the British Mu-... Oh, not the British Museum, at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, and so, that was the natural connection. That was a great and fun course to teach. I would start with Harrison's clocks, and then we'd go through modern GPS, which allowed you to talk about the Theory of Relativity because if relativity's not taken into account, the GPS clocks or GPS bearings would be accurate for about five seconds and then they're no good anymore. So, each of these GPS satellites has an Atomic Clock in it, which they use to set things correctly. So I did that in 2008, and that was a fun experience. My classroom experience was a little challenging at that time. At that time, the way that London worked was students didn't apply to London, they were offered a position to London, and they would say, "Okay, Page 6 of 8 �you can come to Skidmore but you've got to agree to go to London first." And the kids that went had a great experience. Some of them resented that, though. And when I did it in 2014, they changed that and said, okay, they would ask, "Would you like to go to London?" It was almost exclusively students who wanted to go, and that made a huge difference. One of the best classes I ever had was that 2014 class, and they became your advisees as First-Year Experience students did. I really, really enjoyed that cohort of students through their four years at Skidmore. LM: So that program was designed for First-year students, right? MH: Yes. Yes, it was. Yeah. The London courses you taught a First-Year Experience class over there. Again, you had to come up with a class that involvedLM: London. MH: ... London in some way or the UK. LM: So you taught the same course? MH: I taught the same course. I taught it once over there. I taught it a second time on campus with the theory that, in the past, my experience with the Escher course and other things like that is it was never any good until at least the third iteration. And I taught it in 2014 and it was a much better experience. LM: Any other things you'd like to tell us about? MH: No. I mean, the other thing, it was very rewarding, speaking of First-Year Experience, was teaching math and Escher, and I learned a lot from that. I think that whole continuum of Liberal Studies through First-Year Experience requiring faculty to get out of their comfort zone and teach something they weren't really that experienced with was a great experience and something that I learned a lot from. I taught my Escher course first as an LS II course. No, I beg your pardon, first as an LS III course. When it was LS I, II, III, IV, LS III was art and critical thinking, almost all the science people were doing LS IV, which is Science and Society, and universally, they hated it. But, when we transitioned to LS II, I moved my course to LS II. When we transitioned to First-Year Experience, I taught it as a First-Year Experience course. The last time that I taught it, I taught the Senior Seminar for the Senior class, and I taught the same subject. And that was a lot of fun because in the course, what I tried to do as a first-year course, tried to introduce students to complex mathematical ideas without getting their hands too dirty. And you can do that with Escher because you can visualize a lot of things, and he has a lot of visual representations of mathematical ideas. So when I taught it as a senior seminar, I went back and did the same thing but got into the nitty-gritty math of it. And I had three or four students who were in my LS, in my First-Year Experience class as Seniors, and they really enjoyed that, and I enjoyed that. LM: Well, thank you very much. Page 7 of 8 �MH: You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Page 8 of 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Leslie Mechem Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Hofmann Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 28:14 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Hofmann Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 13, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Mark Hofmann came to Skidmore in 1985 as Assistant Professor in the Mathematics and Computer Science Department. He served as Chair of the department, became a Full Professor and from 2005-2008 served as an Associate Dean of the Faculty. In this interview Mark discusses his role in promoting the sciences through his work as Chair of the Science Task Force which proved instrumental in realizing the Tisch Center for Integrated Sciences. Furthermore, he details his part in choosing Porter Scholars and his joy in teaching those students. As a participant in the London FYE Program he relates his excitement about teaching his course "Escher and the Art of Math" in London in 2008 and again in 2014. He also speaks with affection about his time teaching in the prison program. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/304d387294a9afb608981560bc0cb78f.jpg 195e856df84f1c798ef34b41c5702c15 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/5a95f8598a92c15cfc02e134cf5c3f33.mp3 038e222696e81a336fa8991738e51d1d https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e79692af62e27b8350fb91fb9e687686.pdf e53727de878f873acf60c0c34b98a18f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/7f4ea665237fe2bd85aa7f626d483d7c.pdf d32cd0c33d356de4121dd3b02b28f8f2 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ethan Reardon (Class of 2020) Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mary Ellen Fischer Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Ethan Reardon Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit April 26, 2017 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:00:49 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mary Ellen Fischer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 3, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Retiree Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Description An account of the resource Mary Ellen Fischer came to Skidmore in 1975 as a professor of Soviet politics in what was then the Government department, now Political Science. She would later head the department and chair numerous college committees, leaving behind a legacy of intellectual excellence, commitment to community and an enduring work ethic. In a background interview, former colleague Ronald Seyb praised her for her leadership in their department and at the College. In this interview, Mary Ellen describes her experiences in these positions and her relationships with campus colleagues. She also reflects on the transition between campuses and the introduction of coeducation, as well as her scholarly travels. Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Campus Move coeducation Departmental Relations Diversity Eric Weller Government Department Intergenerational Faculty Relations Labor Relations/Benefits Town-Gown Relations https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/20b4356ddb31d61267bc20b9db06995b.jpg 201e52299e4c82d158c6e8afd5304c89 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/40b6cb648f66188f8d3cdb667ca5d6ca.mp3 5a4eced625c9a1350c9d1a723b0739c0 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d607a01f4caed999b18b6b0d2275cfbb.pdf 300b139eaedd8f69656c5aafb0c5bbe5 PDF Text Text Narrator: Melissa Deutsch Interviewers: Charlie Movius and Ben Nathan Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs Date of Interview: March 19th, 2024 Charlie Movius [00:00:00] My name is Charlie Movius. Ben Nathan [00:00:02] And I'm Ben Nathan. Melissa Deutsch [00:00:03] I'm Melissa Deutsch. Charlie Movius [00:00:05] Today is March 26th, 2024, and this is an interview on labor organizing in the Saratoga Springs area for Professor Eric Morser's American labor history class at Skidmore College. Ben Nathan [00:00:19] Mrs. Deutsch, you are a teacher at maple Avenue middle school. What attracted you to that job? Melissa Deutsch [00:00:28] That particular job or teaching in general? Ben Nathan [00:00:31] That particular job. Melissa Deutsch [00:00:32] Well, I got laid off from Niskayuna, and that job opened up. And I was teaching a student, a sixth grader in Niskayuna, and I was laid off when the, the tax cap went into effect. And, districts were laying off people everywhere and I just happened to get lucky and get up in Saratoga. Ben Nathan [00:01:03] Follow up - why did you decide to become a grade school teacher? Melissa Deutsch [00:01:11] I think part of it is my upbringing in a household - I think I was attracted to politics and this topic because my father was a Republican and my mother was a Democrat. And, so our household was very active in discussing issues. And they would always say, there they go to the polls and cancel out each other's votes. So I think that attracted me to this subject matter. And I just loved history and politics in general. And I also had some influential teachers as I was coming up as a young person. Then I came to Skidmore and, Tad Kuroda - I mean, these are names that the old timers would know was one of my favorite - I think he's not alive anymore, but - one of my favorite professors here. And, I just sort of gravitated into, my mother always wanted me to become a teacher. She wanted to become a teacher because, that's summers off, you know, that kind of thing. And great to have a family, and so that's kind of how I got into teaching. When I came here, I was the only person, only one, in my class doing secondary ed. They did not have a program for me. They had elementary ed, so they hired a man at Shen to be sort of my adjunct professor, for lack of a better word. And, that's history. That's where I did my student teaching, and, yeah. Charlie Movius [00:02:56] So thinking about being a teacher, as you were growing up and as you were in school, how is that different from actually being a teacher? Melissa Deutsch [00:03:11] It's intense to be a teacher. When you look at teachers you think, "Oh, I could do that, that's easy." And then you do it. And doing it well, because I've seen it done poorly in many cases. But doing it well takes a ton of work. And, how you �present things to a variety of learners is time consuming and takes a lot of energy. And, I gravitated towards middle school for some crazy reason. I think it was because I enjoyed my student teaching in seventh grade more than I enjoyed the older students. So that's, I've been a middle school teacher for over 25 years, so I have never done anything else. I've taught sixth and seventh and eighth grade and that's it. And I think that that's where I belong. So. Charlie Movius [00:04:12] Do you think, would you say that being part of a union is a way to help you be a better teacher and to help you teach well? Melissa Deutsch [00:04:23] Sometimes. I do, I do believe in unions. It's funny, because my dad was a small business owner and was always complaining about painters unions. He had a, construction business, and my mother was opposite. I see definitely the benefits of unions, but I also have seen the decisions that unions make sometimes the nitty, the small decisions and how they impact me in the classroom, I don't always agree. Mostly scheduling. It's the way that, I know this is already nitty gritty, but the way that our contract, we have 144 minutes of student free time, but that really stifles our schedule. So sometimes it doesn't allow us to do what we need to do for kids. And that's when I struggle with union organizing. And not organizing, but just sometimes the decisions are made and they don't realize how they impact the kids. And, and scheduling is a big issue for me. Ben Nathan [00:05:44] You said that you were in a very political household, did that make it easier to to become a voice in the union? Because you already had some experience in the political world? Melissa Deutsch [00:06:03] Well, I've never been really shy. Right. So that's... and I've always, been taught to voice my opinions, which sometimes get you in trouble, obviously. I think growing up where my parents were like, well, tell us what you think, you know, and I did and, and it was I wasn't like debate club or anything like that, but I always was sort of, like when I was going through school, I wasn't part of a group, you know, have the the nerds and the athletes and the potheads, whatever. I went from place to place and I felt like I didn't, I didn't... I felt like I could create coalitions and for lack of a better word, in my high school with different groups. So I think that was I didn't even think of that before. But I think that's kind of how I was in high school. And and when I got to college, I wasn't as active. I was just so busy working and trying to survive academics here. I don't know if that answers your question, but. Ben Nathan [00:07:26] It does. Thank you. Charlie Movius [00:07:28] So did that influence, did that upbringing and attitude influence your decision to be so involved with the union? And in addition to that, could you speak a little bit about the structure of the Saratoga Teachers Union? Is it mandatory for all new hires? Is it a voluntary situation? Melissa Deutsch [00:07:47] So I for a start, I taught ten years at, North Colonie at the beginning of my career, and I was not very involved. I think when you're beginning as a young person - well, I wish more young people would get involved. And I wish I did get more involved when I was younger, in retrospect. And then, I think when I got to Niskayuna, that was my second job after I stayed home with my children for a little while, and then I went back and, I wasn't as involved there either, which is interesting. And then when I got laid off I think that was an indicator to me, like, I should. And and as you get older and you start looking at a contract and how it impacts your retirement and things like �that, I think that's when a lot of people get more involved. Unfortunately, I wish people younger would get more involved at the beginning. Because we need young people at the negotiating table, honestly. But, and was the second part of the question? I can't remember. Sorry. Charlie Movius [00:08:53] Yeah. No worries. If you could just, speak a little bit on the structure of the Saratoga Teachers Union. And also any differences with other teachers unions that you know of or that you were a part of. Melissa Deutsch [00:09:06] Yeah. So that's an interesting question. And you should look in the contract that I'll leave with you with as long as I get back. But, we changed our structure, that's part of the Constitution, which I'll leave with you, during Covid, that changed everything, honestly. We used to have, you know, the leader, the vice president, and then everybody else kind of thing. That led committees. And, I can show you who they are, what those committees are. And during Covid the job of the union president exploded like you can't even imagine. When I first started, it was 2019, when I first got really involved and I was vice president. And it was, you know, we went to conferences and we learned and we went to the Capitol and we, lobbied. And it was all good times, and then Covid hit and people were freaking out, right. They wanted the union to solve everything, including the pandemic, and the president, that's when he couldn't do it anymore. You know, it just became too big. And he needed a break, which is totally valid. And then I was elevated to president for four months, which was pretty stressful. But it was an interesting time because we became more partners with the human beings on the other side of the table that you're usually contentious with. Just trying to figure out with district leaders how we were going to do it, how we were going to educate kids. So after Covid and things settled down, the president realized he came back and he realized, I need a structure where, it's not all on me. It's a big district. And I mean, there's 500 of us, and that's a lot of - you can't even imagine the types of emails that I would get as union president just from almost like "I have a hangnail, solve that," you know what I mean? And then, or big problems, you know. So now our structure is the president two first vice presidents, one from elementary level and one from [secondary] that's how we start to organize it. So now elementary, there's two elementary vice presidents and two secondary vice presidents underneath the president. So that helped because I think the biggest bear is the elementary schools, because there's six of them and there's lots of things going on. And so we restructured and you'll see that in the Constitution that I can leave with you. But, in order to, to make it more, equitable in terms of the workload involved with, with this particular union. Ben Nathan [00:12:09] Actually. Yeah, this was when you were a vice president. It was in the fall 2019 newsletter for the Saratoga Springs Teachers Association. It says, quote, "One topic at our meeting will be specific roles of special education teachers, school counselors, school psychologists, OTPT, speech providers, and social school social workers. The board is seeking information about our programs that are designed to meet the needs of our students." And that last part caught my attention because it doesn't say anything about, "oh, these people [need a] raise, or state of the art facilities and equipment," highlights about how these programs should, these people, should make the students better. That's the priority. Why did you focus on the students as your as the number one priority in specifically that and other times? Melissa Deutsch [00:13:12] Right. So I think, one board member in particular was very interested in finding out what the roles of each of those people - what they're supposed to do within the district. Right. So, because we kept asking for more mental health help, �right? Even before Covid. And so they wanted to kind of see. The board was starting to get a little more active, and it takes a long time for a board member to start asking the right questions of district leaders. And once they have a few years under their belt, this is not having much to do with - quick, like, let me give you an example. So we cut music positions, right? That that was one. And then, it was now we had like hundreds of kids in study halls because they couldn't go to general music because that wasn't an option anymore. And the board went, "What do you mean, they're in study halls?" Well, you cut the music position. And so people, they they didn't understand the repercussions of a cut, you know, and when you cut human beings how it impacts the other human beings in the building, whether it be other teachers or students. So that was, you know, that didn't didn't answer your question, but that the board members were starting to ask the right questions. And, "here is your position, what are you doing?" Right. What is your role in the school? And, who do you help? How many do you help? Because they were trying to figure out where the need was. We could tell them where the need was, but they had learned the impact of their decisions. So they were asking smarter questions. So I think we were already noticing that our kids were in crisis, for a variety of reasons. Well, the phone, social media, you know, those are my reasons. But, and I think that's - and then Covid hit and, you know, we were even more desperate for those services, so. Charlie Movius [00:15:48] I think it's fair to say that it's a tough time to be a teacher - I think it's fair to say that it's a tough time to be a teacher right now. And, asking the right questions is an important part of both making it easier on students and improving the situation for teachers. And so, in your opinion, what are some of the right questions that people should be asking? That teachers should be asking that, board members should be asking, or parents or students, or anyone. Melissa Deutsch [00:16:23] Well, I don't know if you have been watching recently, but we're $7 million in debt. We're in trouble, the district. And there's a variety of reasons. We're going to have to explain those reasons to the public. And right now, they're not they're going to cut people through attrition. So that means we lose positions, right? So, and what I was just saying, when you lose human beings in the building, it makes my life a lot harder. Like, I can't get a teacher's assistant in a classroom that I desperately need one. We can't attract people. And so what ends up happening, a special ed issue is people get pulled to to go in to go in other places, like a reading teacher might get pulled or a teacher's assistant might get pulled to cover someone else. Right. Because we don't have the bodies anymore. And then we're out of compliance for special ed kids, which is, they should start asking those questions. On a daily basis, we're out of compliance. We're doing things illegally because we don't have people to give the services to the kids that need them. So that is a big bee in my bonnet right now. Because that really makes my life harder. So they need to start really thinking about those cuts. And they don't consider them cuts because they're not firing anybody. They're not giving anyone a pink slip, which we're thankful for. As a union, we're like, okay, great. We're not losing any jobs. We're not firing anybody. But when you lose human beings, it puts pressure on everybody else. And it makes teaching much harder. Ben Nathan [00:18:47] How is Saratoga Springs in that much debt? Melissa Deutsch [00:18:51] Okay. So you need to go to the city of Saratoga Springs, and ask them when the last time they were assessed, and it was, 2005, I believe. Let that sink in, because Wilton people and Greenfield people should be angry. And I've spoken, look it up, I spoke in the fall about this very issue to the board, and one of their goals, I researched, and one of their goals was to seek new streams of revenue. And I said, how �about you start with pushing a citywide reassessment because you have people whose homes are worth $2 million and they're paying $300,000 on a $300,000 house. That's what they're paying in taxes. So to me, that is a crime and a disservice to our students. I've also advocated for overriding the tax cap, which is extremely radical. But that law was put into effect by Governor Cuomo as revenge against the teachers union for not giving him an endorsement. And it forces districts to choose between programing and staff. And it's very bad policy, in my opinion. Ben Nathan [00:20:24] In that October meeting, you also talked about not having a, quote, "true raise," in eight years. Can you explain what you meant by that? Melissa Deutsch [00:20:38] Yeah. Well, part of it is because I made a choice to pay up on my insurance. Because I want the best possible health insurance I can get. They lure us into a cheaper plan, and I refused to do that. They would like to eliminate that expensive plan. So that's part of the reason. Because when I get a raise, it's wiped out by higher health insurance costs. So that's pretty much why I haven't had a true raise in a long time. And that's my decision. I get that. But I think, I don't know if you listened to me about 3 to 1. I talked about 3 to 1 in that speech. So when I came to Saratoga Springs, I had 15 years of experience, and I, they put me on step five. So I'm constantly trying to make up that difference. And I took that job because of the reason I told you, was there was a shortage of jobs because of the tax cap, and I got laid off. And I work very, very hard. And I, I just feel like I've been working so hard and not getting ahead for a long time. Charlie Movius [00:22:18] You've talked about the tax cap and the role of the state government in school affairs. And you've also talked about the need to explain the debt to the public, and relationships with school board members. Could you talk a little bit more on your perception of the current balance of power between all of these different actors who have, maybe different, objectives when it comes to schools? Melissa Deutsch [00:22:54] Hm. You mean the the players like the district leaders, and the board, and the union? Charlie Movius [00:23:01] Yeah. District leaders, the board, the union, parents, state government. And I know that that's a really broad question. Melissa Deutsch [00:23:12] Our superintendent is a very good advocate at the state. He doesn't like it when I talk about the tax cut. I know that he doesn't like that. Because it's so risky for a district to try to go against the state. It's an interesting, delicate balancing act between the union, the district leaders and the board. Our union right now has a very tight relationship with the Board of Education. To be brutally honest. And our district leaders don't like that, as you can imagine. When we were in mediation at the end of this last contract, the board members came to the mediation, which is unheard of because they had had it. They had had it with the lack of movement. And then after that meeting, we settled. So, you know, I mean, it's because we go back to the importance of that committee that I was heading about who is on the board. That is very important. And I still continue to, I don't run that committee anymore, but I show up for those interviews. I'm asked to. And the people there that come that are from that organization that you spoke of, that are trying to get on the board. We can see right through them. They are trying to kiss up to that committee. It's really ugly to watch. But, I gotta admit that they came, you know, to talk to us, so. But anyway. I don't know if I answered that question, but it is a delicate balance between the three groups. I feel like the parents, they didn't know we didn't have a contract for two years. Well, almost all of them. You know, a small percentage. [They] �didn't know. Because we're quiet until we can't be quiet anymore. We're really unlike other both Nisky and North Colonie were noisy. So Saratoga Teachers Association has been really under the radar. [...] That's why I think when we got active in the fall, people were like, "what?" Because we use that power sparingly. We use it to get people on the board for sure. But in terms of, you know, marches and screaming and signs, parents, the people were like, shocked, I think, when they realized what were the teacher screaming about? Charlie Movius [00:26:33] So, you touched on a lot in that answer Melissa Deutsch [00:26:37] [Laughing] I'm sure I did. Charlie Movius [00:26:39] Can you, as a follow up, can you talk about, why it was that you needed to get loud in the fall and what it was that you were getting loud about? Melissa Deutsch [00:26:47] Right. So, I think when we came to the realization it's been two years, right? And we went through this, we went through Covid with our students, with our parents. And we felt like we deserved a decent contract after what we've been through. And I might get teary because it was hard. It was really hard. And, you know, we were angry at the district because they were disrespecting that. And they've been through the same thing. We were like, "you know what we just went through!" And the administrators got their contract, you know, and we were like, this is so... And then we there was a lot of pushing, the the union president got a lot of criticism because he didn't move fast enough. He didn't say enough. You know, he didn't get angry enough. His answers were too politically correct and too siding with the district and blah, blah, blah. So I was kind of in that camp. You know, I was like, "start screaming." And but then when NYSUT came in and kind of explained to us what I was talking about earlier. You can't start off here [gestures towards ceiling]. You have to build a coalition first among other union people. Get your parents on your side. I mean, I brought the notes that I was taking that day. Of how first you build a coalition behind you, and then you start screaming, right? And then there's a, you know, a gradual increase of activity. When we started that training, we didn't have to scream too long until the board got involved and they came to the table. So I think it was like, let's see, in the fall, we were screaming about it. When did we settle? November. End of November. Ben Nathan [00:28:50] Are you happy with the contract that came out of the negotiation? Melissa Deutsch [00:28:59] Uh.. I voted yes. I'll tell you that. But begrudgingly, a little bit, being a 3 to 1 person, I wanted them to do something for those people because it's 68% of teachers, suffered from 3 to 1. And that's a unique thing in our contract. There's no other district does that. And we kept telling the district, if you keep doing that, you're never going to attract people that have any experience. Because if you have 15 years of experience, you start on step five. And we said to the district, "that's hurting you." And the district kind of threw their hands up and said, "well, what do you want us to do? 68% of you were hired under this. You want us to give you all 100 steps or whatever?" And, so they just put that aside again, you know, so they're not going to help those people. And I didn't expect it, but it would have been nice to throw us a bone, give us two steps or something. Something to repair the damage of the people that have suffered from 3 to 1. But then I look at, I'm a union [sic] and the ugly language was removed and the raise was okay, 4.5 [%] per year for the rest of the contract. So it was okay. And as our leader said, it's - we're not going to get any better. So when we understood, he said that the first time when we voted no. But it was better than the first round that we voted no on. �Charlie Movius [00:30:41] For those unfamiliar, could you talk a little bit more about how payment and salary works? In terms of steps and years of experience? Melissa Deutsch [00:30:53] Yeah. So, that's in the contract and you can take a look at that. So you get an incremental raise every year. Right? So, and it varies. In our pay schedule, it varies because - some people got a little bigger of a raise, like, I got a little bigger of a raise because our salary schedule was sort of like this [gestures]. And in the middle steps it took a big dip. So what we've been trying to do for the last few contracts is raise that dip. And I'm in it. I'm in the middle of the salary schedule. I'm in step 17. Not quite the middle, a little up. So we've some of us got a little bigger [raise] than others. Which is hard to explain, but yeah. It passed overwhelmingly the second time around because we were just so angry about the language. And once the language was removed and we got an okay raise and we're still paying less - we went up to 18, I think, percent, you might have to look at that - for our health contributions, which is still lower than surrounding districts. And, you know, I mean, the district is like, "you're in the middle of the Suburban Council," and we're like, "well, why aren't we first? You know, you're Saratoga. Can't we be first paid in the Suburban Council?" So that kind of irks me too. That, they're all proud. "Oh, you're in the middle of the salaries." Well, why can't we be number one in salaries? Like, Ballston Spa makes more than we do, Schuylerville makes makes more than what we do. And look at our community compared to those communities. Ben Nathan [00:32:50] And by more you mean pure salary number? You don't mean like the percentage of Melissa Deutsch [00:32:57] I'd have to take a look at all that. That's true. I think both those districts probably pay a little bit more in their contributions for health insurance. But when you're looking at salaries I think, yes. Ben Nathan [00:33:11] Roughly, what was the percentage of the union who agreed in the second round of voting? Melissa Deutsch [00:33:19] Oh, it was very high. I'd have to look. It was. It was over 70, maybe 80. It was high. Yeah. It was very, Yeah, it was lots of support for the second round. Yes. Charlie Movius [00:33:38] Do you think that the increase in mobilization and vocalization of the concerns of the teachers, how do you think that that played the role not just reaching a new agreement, but having such, a high percentage of teachers vote yes on the contract? Melissa Deutsch [00:34:00] I just think that, yes. A resounding yes. I mean, I just think that people didn't know. People didn't know that we hadn't had a contract for two years. People didn't know. They just didn't know what was happening. So once people started talking about it, and the signs, and we came in force to the board meetings, and we got press, and things like that. I think people started saying things like, "We're Saratoga, you know, how come our teachers are angry and upset?" And they had to stop because it's not good attention to this community. Ben Nathan [00:34:50] What were the vulnerabilities of not being in a contract for two years? For you, for the union and union members? �Melissa Deutsch [00:35:00] So. The Taylor Law, I think if I'm correct, that's the law that you go by your previous contract, right? So that wasn't so horrible for us. That's why we could wait it out. Because in our previous contract, we paid 15% of our insurance. And that's what the district wanted to stop. They wanted that to go because other districts around us pay 22%. Right? And as health insurance costs rise, you know, it just costs the district more. They needed to come to the table for that particular reason. And we could wait. We could wait because 15% is pretty good. And then we still get our step increase every year. It's not a lot, but we would still get a tiny little raise because of our steps. So, you know that. So we could wait, and the district had to finally come to the table because they couldn't sustain that in, in the rising cost of health care. Charlie Movius [00:36:14] How much internal disagreement is there within the Saratoga Teachers Union? You spoke earlier about sort of, opposing poles, of we should be more vocal versus, we should try to smooth everything out, if that's a fair way to characterize it. Are there teachers who are, oppositional to certain approaches or teachers who are even oppositional to the idea of a union? Melissa Deutsch [00:36:49] So I think, previous question was, do you have to join? Right. So the answer is no now, because of the Janice ruling. Right. I'll get back to your question, but what we what we've been trained more so since Janice came out is we need to be a full service organization. Right. So we really need to show our members, you know, why they're paying their dues. One thing that we've really, we really have embraced is 1 to 1. Now 1 to 1 is physically speaking to a person. Not an email, not a text. Physically going to their classroom and saying, how are you doing? What do you think we should should our priorities be? And I brought some of that if you want to look at that. The variety of answers that you get is unbelievable because you talk to a music teacher, the tech teachers got something. The Spanish teacher's got something else, the guidance counselor, so there's such a variety in our jobs. You'd be surprised how many teachers begrudgingly pay their union dues. Because they're not big believers in a union. We only have, honestly, two people that don't pay their dues. And two out of 500 is pretty damn good. That's strong. Right? I mean, there's definitely a variety of opinions when you have 500 people and you've got Republicans, Democrats, you know, people who comment on that website who agree with teachers are on there too. But you've got to try, and I think the best way to do that is 1 to 1, honestly. It is really effective. And it shows your membership that you're listening and that's really what people want, to be listened to. And they want to be heard and they want not everything to be solved. But, you know, they want their union to, to, respond in some kind of way. We have a variety of people out there and a variety of needs. And 1 to 1 is really educational for me because I get in my little bubble and when I go out there and actually talk to people, I learn a lot. I learn. And then I can bring that to my executive council meetings and just be more knowledgeable about music positions and what their gripes are and things like that. So, I don't know if that answers that question, but that's a very long answer. Charlie Movius [00:40:07] I want to return to something that you just mentioned and that you mentioned earlier. Is that schools and teachers across the country have had some problems with, groups that have organized many times in the name of parents rights. But that their main goal is to keep things like DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion, or racial justice initiatives, to keep those initiatives out of schools. And you can be as specific or non specific as you like in this question. But I would love to hear if you could talk a little bit more on the challenges that you faced from those people in that movement, as well as how the union can be a tool in addressing those issues. �Melissa Deutsch [00:41:03] Yeah. So, you know, I've gotten myself online before. And I was a target of the group, I think it was them. It was an assignment that I've been doing a long time about, you know, where you stand in terms of issues. And I was trying to get them to understand, maybe Ben did this with me, but trying to get them to understand are you more conservative or are you more liberal kind of thing? Where where were you on the continuum kind of thing? And that ended up, that assignment ended up featured in social media. But the good thing about our district is the leadership is hugely supportive of DEI. Hugely. And because we have such a small pocket of students, we have such a small percentage of black students, and, it's not all about race, obviously. And with what we were talking about before, the perceived acceptance of these hateful things makes the district even more supportive. Right. So, that I'm really thankful for. Because I teach history and my main subjects are the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of 4 million people. So, I'm very sensitive to that. Right? I'm also sensitive to my students who are gay, and figuring that out, because that is middle schools. Welcome to middle school. I'm very sensitive to that. And I want every kid to feel welcome in their school. I think that the district ignores the noise, and they do a good job at that. And the people that come forward at those board meetings, ugh. I just feel like there's so many more people in our community that can shut that down. And they do. And I don't know if you've seen that in those board meetings. People shut that stuff down. And I'm thankful for a community that does that. I've had a couple, occasionally, someone criticize, I did an assignment on "the six truths about slavery," right? It is an assignment. And it was a Junior Scholastic Magazine article. And one of the quotes was from the woman who did the 1619 project. And the parent went after me because of that one quote. Right. So, you know, I mean, when you're a teacher, you don't want to get that kind of attention. Right? So in retrospect, we made some concessions so we aren't targeted, which makes me want to be sick. Right? Because that's not my natural inclination. But as I get older, I don't want to be a target of social media. I really don't. That will make my life miserable. So to tweak something, to make it a little more acceptable to someone like that, I don't like doing that, but that's kind of what can happen. but, I mean, I'm not going to stop teaching about enslavement and genocide. So it's not going to stop me. Because it's right. Ben Nathan [00:45:14] You just talked about this, but Saratoga Springs and the school district is very purple. There are a lot of Republicans, a lot of Democrats. Melissa Deutsch [00:45:26] I live in Greenfield. It's pretty red [laughing]. Ben Nathan [00:45:27] Greenfield? And the area around the racetrack is extremely blue, so it evens out. Melissa Deutsch [00:45:36] Yeah Ben Nathan [00:45:37] You talked about this a little bit, but when it comes to slavery and people pushing back, has there ever been the opposite, where you don't talk about something enough and people push back on that as well? Melissa Deutsch [00:45:48] No, no, it it's usually the other way around. Because if you remember, I tackle those things with kids. We unpack these issues in my classroom. As long as I'm not, you know, I don't know, indoctrinating kids. If I could indoctrinate kids, they bring me Dunkin Donuts every day, right? I don't think that's a thing. And I don't tell them my opinion, I'm like, here's the information. You figure it out for yourself. Ben Nathan [00:46:30] For the record, that is true. At least when I had her. �Charlie Movius [00:46:37] I think to, wrap up, I want to ask about going forward, what are the biggest challenges? What do you anticipate from the biggest challenges, to be for for teachers, for the school districts, for the union? Melissa Deutsch [00:46:54] Well, I tell you what we are really working on right now. Workplace violence. Right? We are, using, New York State Law and Workplace Violence Act to our advantage. Niset's advice, because, whether it's, a parent going after and threatening a teacher, or going after them in the parking lot, which has happened. Or students getting violent in the classroom, there's a real uptick in that. That's no joke. And, so now with the law on our side, we are going to utilize that law. So right now we are in the process of revamping our code of conduct with the Workplace Violence Act in our minds. And, hopefully those two things will kind of merge into a document. Because the district wants specifics, like, "what do you teachers think is unsafe?" So right now the we're making a big spreadsheet, people are adding things of what is unsafe. I mean, we've had teachers with in the elementary school with broken noses. I'm I'm not joking here. And, there's just been - look, parents, no offense, are not as good as they used to be. It's really frustrating that kids are so, they come to us with so many issues. Our jobs are, are so much more now than just teaching. There's so many facets of our jobs now that are, you know, you gotta know what triggers a kid. I don't want to be responsible for that kid because I don't know what triggers them, you know, that kind of thing. Like, what's going to get them upset? These are things we now have to consider that, I've done this a long time. I never considered that 20 years ago ever, you know? So, I know I'm old and I blame phones and social media, but I really think there's something to that. With the change of the disrespect, and maybe it's too. They're hearing it at home. Oh, you know, those teachers, they they're lazy, they get the summers off, and, you know, the kids come into us, and "my mom thinks you're lazy." You know what I mean? There used to be a lot more respect for the person in front of the classroom, parents and and students. And that has changed. And that is hard. Because I feel like I've never worked harder. And, I think I do demand respect from my students for sure. And I think when the kids and I also, and Ben can attest to this, I really work hard at rapport and reaching each kid so that they go home and they say, you know, I think this teacher might like me. And that helps, obviously, with public relations. So I really try to be kind to my students and teach them in a humorous way. And work hard on presenting it in a way that's fun. And they go home and they like history. That's all I care about. I don't care if you get a D in my class, if you walk out and you are positive about the subject matter, I've done my job. Hopefully you'll go off and you'll be a good citizen and vote and and be part of the solution. Ben Nathan [00:50:55] One more question before you head out. Do you think in the next contract, with a aging union, if there's no younger teachers coming in, do you think the union and the district will, try to put that in the contract to try to attract them? Melissa Deutsch [00:51:18] I don't know how they're going to attract people in our particular district. As I said, 3 to 1 hurts the district. I don't know how they're going to attract young people to teaching right now in general. I think people know it's grueling work and teachers are less respected than ever before. And why would you do that? You know, when I can work at home and in my pajamas. Because you can't do that. That doesn't work. Let me just say that we tried that for a year and a half. That doesn't work. So attracting people, I don't know. I mean, President Biden says, well, we need to give teachers a raise, then nothing happens, right? Governor Hochul has got no spine, right? You know, not even to go after the task because that would help. We deserve more. We deserve to make a living and not have to work a second job. Right. And young people, the �salaries aren't there for them. In some districts. they're getting a little better at the bottom. But, I don't know what would attract, young person to this occupation right now. My son who was a chemistry graduate, he's like, "maybe I'll be a teacher." I was like, "no!" And that's not good. I love teaching, I should promote it, but but I can't do that right now. I don't know if that answers your question, because I don't think I can answer that one. I don't know how they're going to do it. Ben Nathan [00:53:09] You did answer it. Melissa Deutsch [00:53:11] We're going to be in trouble in five years. I will just say that, the district just offered us today, I was at a meeting at 7 a.m., a retirement incentive. Because they want to get rid of old people like me. Right? And hire someone for half the cost. The retirement incentive was terrible, right? And there were 68 of us that could potentially do it. And they need ten to make it worth their while. I don't think they're going to get ten. We'll see. But, it's not going to be me because it was pretty lame. But that that's their solution, right. To get rid of the old guard and the people who are at the top steps and replace them with people at step one. Which is, you can look for yourself where step one is, see if you'd be attracted to the job at that salary rate. So I'll leave you with the salaries, if you want. Charlie Movius [00:54:11] With that, I want to Ben Nathan [00:54:16] Seriously, yes. Melissa Deutsch [00:54:18] I gotta get to Cantina! Charlie Movius [00:54:20] Yeah. So with that, I want to thank you so much for allowing us to interview you. Melissa Deutsch [00:54:24] Well, if you have more questions, you know how to get me. You can text me or, you know, reach out if you have a follow up things. I'm happy to oblige. Or if you need to do this more, right. Because this was pretty good. Ben Nathan [00:54:38] Yeah. And thank you for spending your evening with us. And thank you for allowing the American labor history class at Skidmore College to interview and talk about your experience and your union, and the teachers union that you're involved in. Melissa Deutsch [00:55:02] Thanks, Ben. Thanks for having me, ben and Charlie. Charlie Movius [00:55:05] Thank you,. Ben Nathan [00:55:06] Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Charlie Movius, Ben Nathan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Melissa Deutsch Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 55:07 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit March 26th, 2024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Melissa Deutsch Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 19th, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Melissa Deutsch is a veteran middle school social studies educator with over 28 years of experience in the Suburban Council schools. She currently teaches 7th grade at Maple Avenue Middle School in the Saratoga Springs City School District. Melissa holds a Bachelor of Arts from Skidmore College and a Master’s degree from SUNY Albany. Beyond the classroom, she has been a passionate advocate for educators through her extensive involvement in the Saratoga Springs Teachers Association (SSTA). Over the past thirteen years, she has served in numerous leadership roles including union representative, chair of the Educational Concerns Committee, NYSUT representative, contract negotiations team member, ED 10 representative, vice president, and president. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Benno Greene Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d5538366f008cb9d9fdfa1ededdc588f.jpg 8e49437b6ca6ff787a014ae8a426141a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9af58930ab3022dbd557d461df978ac9.m4a 63ac0c1fbc6d91a1843413eb244b2bd1 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/ea7ff647cb68fcf5f75bb17c0bed1d50.pdf 56f5fc0a0395a5589a3da22d1db56e7d PDF Text Text Melvis Langyintuo ‘12 Interview Log 00:00:00 From Tamale, Ghana 00:00:10 Double Major in Business & Management and Economics 00:00:20 Lives in Downtown Manhattan and is a trader at Goldman Sachs 00:00:40 At Skidmore involved in International Student body and Student Government 00:01:00 Class President 00:01:20 Currently involved in local Skidmore Happy Hours and an Alum Finance Group 00:01:50 Sister recently graduated from Skidmore 00:02:00 Feels like hasn’t left when comes back to campus 00:02:40 Well aware of things going on at Skidmore 00:03:30 Notices student diversity population has grown 00:04:00 Growing investments in infrastructure 00:04:40 Midnight Dodgeball event freshman year 00:05:55 Took Education Department class, School and Society 00:08:00 Winning first Liberty League Basketball Tournament for Skidmore and repeat senior year 00:09:30 Success of Dodgeball Event spurred interest in SGA 00:11:00 Helped bind community, biggest group of students back for alumni reunion weekend 00:12:30 Academics helped work as a trader and interest in philanthropy 00:13:15 Works for Pencils for Promise, an organization that builds schools in Guatemala Ghana, and Laos. Raised over $120,000 00:15:30 Experience as an international student helped students settle into Saratoga 00:19:30 Tried to engage his personal background for other students to understand his background 00:22:00 Tries to use his resources now to help others get similar oppurnities   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kira Hastings '17 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Melvis Langyintuo Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Melvis Langyintuo '12 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 6, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English, (eng.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Description An account of the resource Langyintuo '12 from Tamale, Ghana, graduated with a double major in business and economics and served as class president for four years. He remains connected to Skidmore through local happy hours and an Alum finance group. After his graduation, he started working in Manhattan in finance. He credits his education with preparing him for his current career as a trader at Goldman Sachs. alumni ghana kickball management & business SGA Skidmore College student government https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d79357abd9af0c713c86905dc01872ae.jpg a394ddbc145b020c3179df5c8d9d25dd https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1999f1e4d4727cb3d5d3850ca4c13a2c.m4a 8bcfb19901d5c16bdb6f23dc3e9f821a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/04ed63833a36ec48e543b05c8aa9f853.pdf 46c66e25a06169de0c568a41c888a376 PDF Text Text Interview with Michael Arnush by Lynne Gelber & Sue Bender (recording tech), Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, July 17, 2025. LYNNE GELBER: This is LG. I'm here with Sue Bender. It's the 17th of July 2025, and we're here to interview Michael Arnush. And Michael, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about where you grew up and some of your childhood and what brought you to Skidmore. MICHAEL ARNUSH: Sure. Thanks a lot. Thank you, both of you, for having me here to do this. So I was born in New York City and spent half my childhood in Queens and Jackson Heights. And at the age of nine, my family was uprooted and we moved to Phoenix, Arizona, which was one heck of a cultural shock for all four of us. My father worked for Revlon, and Revlon decided to build a plant in Phoenix in the mid-sixties, so here was a New York family suddenly living in Phoenix. So I was there through high school. I focused largely on math and science in high school. I seemed to have some skill with that. So when I went to college, my plan was to be a pre-med, like so many students. And I did every pre-med class except the last one. And the last one was physical chemistry, the last one that was required for med school. I went the first dayLG: And where was this? MA: At Stanford University in Palo Alto, California. I went the first day of class, and it was the last day I went to class. I had no idea why I was there any longer. So Stanford was on the quarter system, so that was fall quarter of my junior year. LG: What year was that? MA: '75... Fall of '77. So at this point, I should have a major, I should be well into the major, and I suddenly have nothing. So winter quarter, I just took courses across the board. I took a course in women's studies, a course in religious studies. I took Intro to sociology, Intro to anthropology, Intro to physical anthropology. I was searching. And I had a friend who is Greek American, she's still a friend all these years later, and she suggested to me, why don't you take a course in Greek history? So I went to the first day of class. I knew no one in the classroom. It was a tiered classroom, like a small version of Davis or Emerson at Skidmore. LG: Do you remember who was teaching it? MA: Dr. Antony Raubitschek, who fled Nazi Germany in the 1930s, then went to the Institute of Advanced Study at Princeton, and then ended up at Stanford. Four foot eight tall, four foot eight wide, thick German accent, and I was hooked the first day, the first five minutes. A Page 1 of 17 �And then I scrambled. I scrambled to try to get the classics education I needed to go on to go to a graduate school. So I squeezed in enough in that junior and senior year, and in the summer in between, to get into graduate school. But I knew I needed to work more on my languages, on Greek and Latin. I had an opportunity to go to Greece the summer after my senior year. I'll never forget the moment. I got on a bus at the old airport down by the water on the outskirts of Athens. And as the bus descended from this high road into the city, I caught glimpses of the Parthenon in between people's arms that they were holding on the straps,.. hooked, just completely hooked. I spent a fifth year doing Greek and Latin. The classics department let me audit Greek and Latin classes. And then I went to graduate school at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. And when I went on the job market the first year, I was very ABD, all but dissertation. And I ended up with a one-year sabbatical replacement at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, which was a phenomenal experience. They taught me how to teach. The people in that department were just so kind to me. And then I went on the job market again, still ABD, and it came down to Skidmore and one other school. I interviewed with the dean of the faculty, Eric Weller, because Lynne, as you know, you were in the foreign language department, at that moment, classics had had a roller coaster relationship with the college and with the department. There had been a number of classicists before I was hired who, for one reason or another, had not succeeded. So I interviewed with Eric and then interviewed on campus, and I made the offer, and I chose it over Bowdoin. I thought that being a little closer to New York City might be a better option for us. And so I started Skidmore in the fall of '89 and retired a year ago. LG: So you came to Skidmore in '89, and what was your first position? What were you doing and what department were you in? MA: Okay. Well, I was hired as the director of classical studies, and I was still ABD, so I didn't have my dissertation in hand, which means that your department, Lynne, then called the Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures, was taking a gamble on me because I did not yet have my PhD. LG: I never took a gamble. MA: Well, thank you, Lynne. Some people certainly did. So I was hired to direct a program that had had a real life through the seventies and eighties from people like Helga Doblin, who taught Greek on the side when she was told by Sonya Karsen that she wasn't allowed to. To the Ecclesia, which was this gathering of non-classicists. Plus, if there was a classicist in the department, that person would be part of it. A Page 2 of 17 �I did lectures, got an NEH grant, fostered the study of antiquity. There was someone in the history department, Bill Brynteson, someone in art history, Harry Gaugh, Tom Lewis in English, Phil West in English, and a bunch of other people who believed that the delivery of a classics curriculum was of value, but the college had not made the kind of investment it needed to really build the program. And probably the hiring of David Porter in the second half of the eighties made a difference. He was my second to last interview when I came in the spring of '89. Scared the dickens out of me. I had never met a college president before. So I was hired as the director of a program. There was one other person who was teaching part-time. LG: Who was that? MA: Michael Moore. And the idea was to build a classics program from ground zero. I discovered, among other things, that the students who were in intermediate Latin knew no Latin. So I had to teach intermediate Latin students elementary Latin and cram it into as few weeks as possible. Within, oh, I don't know, maybe four years, there were three of us, including my wife, Leslie Mechem. I did not hire her. Phyllis Roth, the dean, hired her. Within, oh, 12 years there were, at one point there were five of us. There are now four classicists at Skidmore. LG: Who are they? MA: Currently, Ben Abbott is the ancient historian. Janelle Sadarananda is the archaeologist. Amy Oh is primarily a Latinist, but also a Hellenist. And Dan Curley, who is the department chair, focused on Ovid, but now works primarily on the reception of classics in film. So we started from nothing, and that was quite a challenge, not only to build the resources from the college, but to demonstrate the need for those resources, which means getting students into the classroom. The easy classes were things like Greek art, Roman art, Greek history, Roman history, Greek philosophy. That has been offered by someone in the philosophy department for longer than I've been at the college. Classical mythology, a big draw. But getting students into Greek and Latin, even with a language requirement, was a real challenge. LG: So when you first came, what courses did you teach? MA: I did not teach any ancient history. So my degree is actually in ancient history. I was trained in Greek and Roman history, but the history department hadLG: Is that Bill Brynteson? A Page 3 of 17 �MA: That was Bill Brynteson who was a Renaissance historian, but he had been teaching Greek and Roman history for years. He taught it as intellectual history, so I knew that was off limits. When Leslie was first hired, and she's an archeologist, Harry Gaugh was still teaching ancient art for the art history department, so that wasn't available to him either. So I focused primarily on just teaching Greek and Latin, just getting those languages off the ground and getting students into the sequence and holding onto them. LG: Was that because Helga also was retired or hadMA: Helga retired nine years before I arrived. So she retired in '80, and she was a great resource initially. I mean, she was very kind to me, but she was also hands-off. She was done. She was finished with the college. So yeah, when Bill Brynteson retired, the history department offered me the opportunity to teach, frankly, as many ancient history courses as I wanted. So I took over and revamped that sequence and turned it into a four-course sequence, two on Greek history, two on Roman history, and then a bunch of seminars over the years. LG: So this became a full-blown department at some point. MA: Less for Phyllis Roth. So I was recommended for tenure in, what would that be, ‘94? And Phyllis and I, at that point, would have lunches. So many people did once a semester, over Kendall-Jackson wine at Sperry's. And I had run afoul with Phyllis. I got to tell this story. This is like '90, and you'll remember this. You both will. This is, oh, probably '92. So David Porter is the president of the college. Phyllis Roth, English department, is the dean of the faculty, and they needed to cut the budget. And this is years after David had commissioned something from all the Commission on the Nineties, and they wanted to cut the budget. And the theory, and I never asked Phyllis or David to assert that this is true, the theory is that they were looking for the quickest way to cut as large a number of faculty as possible. And the language department had grown, and you know better than I, Lynne, from something like seven lines to 16 lines in a very short period after the faculty approved an intermediate competency language requirement. And so the notion is get rid of the requirement. You can get rid of a lot of faculty really quickly and close the budget. So John Anzalone, retired professor of French, who's a dear friendLG: Was he the chair at that point? MA: No, I don't think he was. You had been. Maybe John was chair at that point because he was chair when I stood for tenure. So we put together some data to demonstrate the value of a language requirement. And we knew that secretly David Porter, who knew more languages than I do, believed in the teaching and learning of languages. And for all I know, Phyllis did as well, but this was an expedient, I think, way for them to take care of the budget. So John and I put together a PowerPoint before there was a PowerPoint and a handout that was printed out and in color, which was given to every person who came to the A Page 4 of 17 �faculty meeting. It was like 200 copies. John gave the prologue. I ran the faculty through the data. John did the epilogue. I'll never forget. I'm doing the data and it's time to turn to page two. So I said to the assembled, "Please turn over to page two." You couldn't hear anything except the turning of a page. It was amazing. Faculty voted to retain the requirement. Phyllis was pissed. She called John and me into her office the following week. Now, I'm untenured. I think I'd gotten my PhD maybe a year or two before. I'm untenured, John is my chair. We staged a coup. We defeated the Dean and the President, and you don't do that lightly. She calls us into her office and reads us the riot act, and John is taking the brunt of her criticism. 20 minutes in, John announces, "I have to leave. I have to go pick up Becca from school." Now I'm sitting alone with the Dean of the Faculty. And for about the next, it seemed like hours, probably another 15, 20 minutes, I caught Phyllis's wrath. To her credit, in my 10th year, she gave us the department. Phyllis did not hold a grudge. She gave us an additional line, so we grew from two people to three people. LG: Why do you think that it became a separate department? MA: I think there were a lot of reasons. One, I think for some faculty they had to approve it, of course. For some faculty from their own home institutions when they were undergraduates or graduates, it was customary to have a classics or classical studies department. I think for the language department, I was an anomaly because I really was an historian in a language department. And that's not unusual for classics at some small institutions where the institution doesn't create a department, but the classicists are housed in a language department. But typically if they're historians, they're housed in the history department. It was unusual for Skidmore to have someone trained as an historian, but teaching the languages, because I was also trained in the languages, to be housed in the department. So I think there was no opposition, really, from the language department for us to go our separate way. There was nothing, I think, politically positive or negative about it in terms of the relationship of those of us in classics to the department. It didn't cost the college much more money. We continued to share an administrative assistant as the Classics Department does today, so there was really no additional cost. Phyllis granted the line before, yes, before classics became a department. Lynne, you tell me. You were there. LG: Well, I didn't see it quite in the same way, obviously, because I think so many of the survey courses really were in the languages or in the literature, part of it, history of, so it wasn't so strange to have somebody in history doing Latin or Greek. A Page 5 of 17 �MA: And an archaeologist, right? So it was not an unusual fit, but it felt like we were ready to have independence to be able to make our own decisions about especially personnel. LG: So what other major contributions do you think you made at Skidmore? MA: A menu of items. Let me first talk about just for classics. So I think Leslie and I were the first faculty to do a study abroad program with students during the summer for two weeks abroad. Before the current director of Off-Campus Study and Exchange, OCSE, which many just call Study Abroad, but it's OCSE, before the current director, Cori Filson, was in the position, there was someone else who was there, who was hired by John Ramsey, who was the Dean of Studies. And Jon used to oversee Study Abroad. And that first director, her name was Kara Sheldon, approved for us to take students to Greece for two weeks. And that became a standard. Leslie and I, over the course of however many years that was, took students four or five times in the summer. We took alums once in '98, including a couple of future board of trustee chairs, Sue Thomas and Janet Whitman. And we took faculty, not from Skidmore. We had a grant from something called the Associated Colleges of the South and took about 20 faculty to Greece as well. So that became a standard. Now the Classics Department takes students either to Rome, that's Dan Curley in classics and Greg Spinner in religious studies, or to Greece,- Amy Oh and Janelle Sadarananda, every other year, so it's now become a regular feature of the curriculum. And that's great. That's really wonderful. It's wonderful for the students to get the field experience. I stepped out of classics. I still kept a foot in the department. I was chair more than once. When we became a department, it was no longer program director. It was chair. The first thing I was asked to do was the Honors Forum. So John Ramsey, bless his soul. A quick story about John. My very first day on campus, there was a reception after the first day of orientation for new faculty, and it was out on the patio outside the old Scribner Library. John probably had come to the orientation, so we probably had recognized each other. He came over and introduced himself. We chatted for a few moments, and then he said, "Would you like to meet former President Joe Palamountain?" I said, "I'd be delighted." I had met David during the interview. He takes me over to the tree below the president's office outside of Palamountain, points to the plaque in the ground and says, "Joe's six feet under." I have told that to every president because almost none of them, including the current president, Marc Conner, knew that Joe's ashes are down there. Anne's are not. Anne's buried, I think, in the family plot, Connecticut, something like that. But yeah, there's Joe Palamountain. LG: Oh, dear. MA: So John Ramsey, as the Dean of Studies, and John, as you both will recall, was involved in so many different things in support of the administration and a close ally of Phyllis'. So A Page 6 of 17 �John reported to the faculty that retention of first-year students had become increasingly problematic and that they wanted retention to be someplace in the 90s, 93, 94, 95%, if possible, and it slipped to 89%. And his concern was that students were transferring after the first year. LG: Because? MA: The report was, and this is anecdotal, the report was that students did not feel they were sufficiently challenged. Now, I don't know what that means. The Skidmore faculty are rigorous, probably always have been, probably are more rigorous today than when you arrived or when I arrived. But that was at least what John reported to us. So he proposed to the faculty something called the Honors Forum. Sue, you were involved with it very early on. You were a great ally in that. The faculty approved it. The idea was to offer courses that any student could take, but they would be designated as Honors Forum courses, and the idea was that they would be a bit more rigorous. They would raise the bar. And the theory was that by raising the bar in certain courses seeded across the curriculum, a rising tide would lift all boats. That's John's phrase. And so after the faculty approved it, I think Phyllis asked me to be the director. LG: And that was what year? MA: '97, maybe. LG: Okay. MA: I think that's about right. And so the first challenge was to build an Honors Forum curriculum. And so I think the first thing I did with John was to build an Honors Forum council. So there was a collection of faculty, administrators and staff that included res life, included John's area, included other areas, and some faculty who eventually were elected through the governance system to build a program. And so that took a couple of years to get off the ground. And I'm thrilled that here we are, well, almost 30 years later, the program still exists. It's gone through a lot of changes. I think it's still trying to figure out what its role is at the college. LG: What did that consist of when you started? MA: Initially, we invited entering students to join the Honors Forum. That eventually shifted under subsequent directors to wait until students arrived on campus and give them a chance to apply. We did both initially, invite entering students and offer students the chance to apply after a semester. Initially, there was a course only for the entering class, Sue, Jon Ramsey and I team-taught that class. It had mixed results, but it was fun. It was a lot of fun. And then recruiting faculty to offer courses in their areas. So these were not courses that were designed necessarily to be different from the curriculum, but to be more rigorous. And so that meant, for me, reaching out to every department chair and program director, A Page 7 of 17 �making announcements on the floor of the faculty, inviting faculty to workshops. We had a little seed money from the Dean's office to build a curriculum. In the early stages, not only did we have the course for the entering students, but when we had a senior class, John and I team-taught a course open to the seniors in the Honors Forum. LG: Which was what? MA: It was to give them a chance to reflect on their academic experience. If they're doing a thesis or an art project or some other kind of senior lab project, to share that with the group. Again, it was a mixed bag. It was an experiment. We were looking to find the footing for how the Honors Forum would work. So that was the first. Want to hear about the next one? LG: Yep. MA: That was really hard. So now it's, I think it's maybe 2004. Chuck Joseph, professor of music, is the VPAA/DOF. Sue, I don't recall if you were associateSUE BENDER: VP? MA: I'm sorry, Vice President for Academic Affairs and Dean of the Faculty. And at that point, the position had been consolidated, yet again, into one person. Sue, were you still Associate Dean of the Faculty at this point in '04? SB: No. MA: Okay. So, as we all know, faculty had been delivering the liberal studies curriculum for a long, long time, developed in the mid-eighties. I think Terry Diggory was on the Committee on Educational Policy and Planning (CEPP) when it was first proposed. An LS, Liberal Studies, program consisted of LS 1, Liberal Studies 1, and then three groups of courses, LS 2, LS 3 and LS 4, each of which were themed. And faculty offered courses in LS 2, 3 or 4, or taught as part of the team-teaching effort in LS 1. Wildly successful probably for its first 10 to 15 years. Eventually, faculty started to drift away from LS 2, 3, and 4, so those were consolidated into LS 2. LS 1 continued, and I remember... Oh, I know. It was Sarah Goodwin, professor of English was Associate Dean, and she was struggling to get faculty to teach LS 1, this jewel of a class, teamtaught by 40-something faculty who met weekly to discuss the curriculum, to plan events, and then various faculty would come in and give lectures. You did that. I never taught in LS 1, but I did observe David Porter teaching LS 1, teaching prepared piano, which was a hoot. So the dean's office was saying, we can't deliver this course any longer. And even the new LS 2 was becoming increasingly difficult to deliver. So the faculty had, I don't know A Page 8 of 17 �how long it lasted, probably most of the year, a discussion about the curriculum and what to do. In the end, the faculty approved something called the first year experience, the FYE. It wasn't that controversial, but you can appreciate that those who taught in LS 1 for a long time, and still taught, especially the LS 1 course, were resentful that was being taken away. And so we knew, all of us, that it was going to be a landmine to get things off the ground. Chuck Joseph, VPAA/DOF, asked me if I would direct the program. And then Chris McGill, who at the time was working in the dean's office, would join me as the administrative arm, and I would do the faculty arm. And here the task was to recruit sufficient faculty to offer 45 to 48, we called them Scribner Seminars after Lucy, the founder, because everything is named Skidmore and nothing was named Scribner except the library, 45 to 48 seminars every fall, plus two in London. So the continuation of the London program, but now it would be two faculty, two Skidmore each teaching one Scribner seminar. And we needed to get 135 courses on the books pretty quickly because we needed to plan the next three years. Phil Glotzbach had just become president. Mellon Foundation likes to support new presidents, so the Mellon Foundation gave Phil $250,000, which he handed over to the FYE and gave us $100,000 out of his presidential discretionary funds. So we had $350,000. Chris and I were throwing money at the faculty offering workshops, summer, spring, winter, whenever we could, to help faculty develop courses. Then we had to vet the courses. Then they had to go to the curriculum committee. This was a haul. By the second year that I was director, and this would probably be around 2005 or so, which means 20 years ago, we offered the first slate of courses. We're still doing it. The courses were meant to be a couple of things. Number one, interdisciplinary at the heart of the Skidmore academic experience. Two, taught by faculty in their disciplines, but to teach whatever they wanted to give them the freedom with few constraints, except the course was supposed to be rigorous, include a good amount of writing, interdisciplinary, but we tried not to tell the faculty what to teach. We tried to kick themSB: So what kinds of courses came out of that? MA: Oh, my gosh, pick your favorite discipline. I can talk about my own classes. I remember I used to have to speak to, or I was asked to speak to prospective Skidmore students and accepted Skidmore students. And I would go through the litany of courses on the cosmos, to courses on poetry, to courses on immigration, to courses on history. Pick your favorite time period and the location. A Page 9 of 17 �Tillman Nechtman, in the history department, still does this. He teaches a Skidmore seminar on Captain Cook's voyages, and each student is assigned a role on Captain Cook's ship. I mean, it's so cool. And when the weather is good, he teaches it down by the pond, which always seems appropriate. So it was like that. It adds a spirit of fun and adventure. Some faculty taught it every three years, which was really the goal. We wanted, ideally, for the tenure line faculty to teach it, not to ask new faculty to teach it right away, to give them a couple of years to get their feet wet and figure themselves out as a member of their department and program and the faculty, but try to have a course on the books before they stand for tenure. We welcomed non-tenure track faculty as long as they were full-time. My goal had been a first year experience, and we failed in that regard. It really has been a first semester experience. When Muriel Poston, the Professor of Biology, came to Skidmore from outside and became the Dean of the Faculty under Chuck Joseph, who then became VPAA, and then Susan Kress English department replaced Chuck, I went to Muriel and asked for the resources to develop a spring experience for the students. John Anzalone and I team-taught one course, and that was the extent of it. We teamtaught a course on the Grateful Dead. We got away with teaching a course on the Grateful Dead, and then finished the course with a concert in Albany by the Grateful Dead. But Muriel said, we just don't have the money to even do a one-credit course for the spring. It would've cost about $50,000 a year. I think we could have found the money, but we didn't have the will. So it continues to this day. Faculty teach Scribner Seminars, and maybe it'll continue to last longer, I don't know. But it really is a first semester experience. LG: So what would you consider your biggest challenge in all the years that youMA: Well, something I haven't mentioned, and that was serving on committees. I served on the Committee on Educational Policy and Planning a couple of times, set up and chaired it a couple of times. That's always hard because it brings together the Dean of the Faculty and/or the Vice President for Academic Affairs, maybe in the same person, a bunch of elected faculty, some administrators trying to plan the future of the curricular experience of the college. Always a challenge. I always wanted to serve on CAPT, the Committee on Appointments, Promotions and Tenure. It went by CAPTS, with an S at the end, before I came to the college. LG: It was sabbaticals. MA: Oh, it was sabbaticals. Okay. It had to be approved by the faculty, a faculty of six elected in staggered terms. I knew it was a responsibility to serve on it. I just wanted to wait for the right moment, and it ended up coming towards the end of my time as a faculty member. So I was elected to CAPT. And in my first year, we had a couple of real serious challenges and some very difficult tenure cases, promotion cases. And as well, that was A Page 10 of 17 �the year that we, as a committee, in consultation with the faculty, broke the committee in two and created ATC, the Appointments and Tenure Committee, and separately the PC, the Promotions Committee. And so that happened my second year on what was CAPT, now ATC. And then I served one more year on ATC as its chair. It's the hardest work I ever did at the college. You're reading the scholarship, the teaching and the evaluation of your colleagues. You're reading amazing work. You read everything. If the colleague has written a book, you read the book. If the colleague has written 37 articles as a psychologist, you read 37 articles. You read every student evaluation. It's a lot of work. It's a serious commitment that the faculty take very seriously. I loved it. It was some of the hardest work I ever did. Really challenging. At the end of that, for a couple of reasons, I was looking at retirement. It was coming up pretty soon. Leslie was looking at retirement after one more year. I was going to stay two years past her time on the faculty, and I got an opportunity to join the Dean of Faculty's Office as an Associate Dean of the Faculty for student academic affairs. I said, yes, the first week of March of 2020. The second week of March, the country and the world shut down due to COVID. So one of the greatest challenges was the summer of 2020, working with Michael Orr, dean of the faculty and VPAA, Janet Casey, Associate Dean of the Faculty for Academic Affairs, and Pat Fehling, Associate Dean of the Faculty for Academic Affairs and Infrastructure, figuring out what to do. From the academic side, do we have a college? Will students come in the fall? Will the faculty teach in the fall? Will we be teaching outside, inside, remotely? All of us who were teaching in the spring of 2020 were given an extra week to learn Zoom. No one knew Zoom. So that first summer, that first year, working with, not just the dean's office, but the president's office, the registrar's office, the study abroad office, which had to bring every student home from abroad in the spring of 2020, academic advising, counseling center, health services, the whole gamut of the college working together to figure out how to manage this and how to keep the college afloat. And we did it. And I give tremendous credit to so many people. Great leadership from Michael Orr, DOF/EPAA, but heavy lifting by Pat and Janet and so many folks in Starbuck, so many folks in student affairs. And my three years in that job, I got a chance to work with people I never really had a chance to work with before. Everyone in Starbuck, so registrar's office, academic advising, study abroad, career services, the folks downstairs under Jamin Totino in supporting students in and outside the classroom. Working with a lot of folks in student affairs and res life, and that was a great experience. I got to see the other side. Many faculty might have a brief experience on a committee with colleagues in other parts of the college, but rarely get to work with them so intensely, and I got that opportunity, and that was great. LG: So would you mark that as among your fondest memories? A Page 11 of 17 �MA: Yeah, I would. I would say meeting John Ramsey and meeting Joe Palamountain my first day at the college. I would say the language requirement issues with Phyllis, that was a highlight. Phyllis's retirement was also a hoot. I don't know if you remember this, but we did a skit. Shame on us. Jon Ramsey in a wig played Phyllis, and I sat on his knee, and I was Jon Ramsey. That was a good one. Highlights, the holiday party, which used to fall in December. It was the last day, the last Friday of the semester, last Friday maybe before exams or maybe of exams. And I just remember the year I was recommended for tenure fell on that day as well, David Porter on the stage in his red and green Christmas vest. Those were great fun. I really enjoyed those. And I haven't talked about something else, but I can't not talk about it, and that's the classroom. I spent almost all of my 35 years, one way or another, in the classroom, department chair, program director, Honors Forum, FYE. And my last semesterLG: What FYE is? MA: First Year Experience, Honors Forum. And then my last year as an Associate Dean of the Faculty, Michael gave me room to teach one course in the spring. I taught a lot of classes. I love to teach. I still miss that part of the job a lot. I tried to be innovative. I think I built the first academic web page at the college. I know I taught the first team-taught online course that wasn't part of UWW. I taught with a colleague at Miami University. LG: University, well, that was UWW? MA: Right, UWW. But I didn't teach in that. I taught with this colleague I met at a conference. We team-taught a course on ancient Athens. She was in Ohio, and I was at Skidmore in the library. And we used rudimentary computer hookups and a speakerphone, which never worked, and it crashed almost every time. I brought a lot of role-playing into my classes, and I enjoyed that. I also liked the rigor of reading ancient Greek with students, reading ancient Latin with students, of teaching a seminar on the Medea by Euripides or a seminar on powerful women in the ancient world. I love doing that, and I miss that. LG: So what have you been doing since you retired, and what year was that that you retired due to changes at the college? SB: Michael, could you talk a little bit about some of the things that you were (changed)MA: Oh, changes at the college? Oh, sure. Across the board, the physical nature of the college. I, of course, wasn't here when the college moved from downtown Saratoga Springs to the current location on campus. But the addition of, first, the Dana wing that was urged by Phyllis Roth, Dean of the Faculty, and David Porter, college president. Which eventually led to the CIS, the Center for Integrated Sciences, dedicated in honor of Billie Tisch, a A Page 12 of 17 �long-standing supporter, she and her family of the college, a spectacular building for teaching and for scholarship and for research. That whole part of the college has changed. The building of Zankel, the music center with a glorious hall that holds over 600 people, fantastic acoustics and great places for students to work on their musical skills. Housing for students has changed so much. I think the college still needs more spaces and needs more classrooms, but housing has improved a lot. Now there's a new space for health and wellness, the Wagman Center. That's great. LG: How has the housing for students changed? MA: Tore down housing that used to be devoted to juniors and built apartments for them that are really first class. And then there's a second set of apartments in North Woods that are for seniors. I toured all of that when I became the first-year experience director. I wanted to see what the student experience was like because we had hoped to link some seminars to the housing experience, and we did that for a couple of years. I think the faculty are more rigorous, more diverse in what they offer, more diverse as to who they are and where they come from and what their backgrounds are. The student body is certainly much more diverse. I remember early on, David Porter was still president, Phyllis Roth was the dean, and a student I'd had, his name is Scott, was a senior, a Black male student. And it's a faculty meeting Friday afternoon, Gannett Auditorium, and Scott and a bunch of students, students of color, people of color walk into the room and ask if they can take the microphone. LG: And what year was this? Do you remember? MA: No, I don't. LG: Okay. MA: But it had to be before '98, when David stepped down. David graciously allowed Scott to interrupt the meeting, and Scott's comments were both a plea and an urging. He essentially said to the president, look around the room at the faculty. Almost everyone is white. You need to diversify the faculty. Now years later, the college has done a pretty good job of doing that. And the student body is much more diverse, both in terms of having people of color in the student body, international students as well, but also from more diverse socioeconomic backgrounds. I think at one point Skidmore was viewed by other institutions, people at other institutions, maybe people outside of the academy as a finishing school. It's no longer an institution like that at all. When I came, maybe it was in the top 50 of liberal arts colleges by the dubious rankings of things like US News and World Report. Now it's in the mid-thirties every year. Maybe it'll go higher. I'm not sure how important that is, but it’s certainly, parents do look at it. High school students looking at college do look at it. I think it's not insignificant. A Page 13 of 17 �Everyone wants to downplay it, but it's important. The college has risen in the estimation of others. LG: So what have you been doing since retirement? MA: So in 2017, there was a scholar by the name of el-Abbadi. I forget his first name at the moment. So el-Abbadi was an Egyptian scholar. His obituary appeared in The New York Times. He wrote what was, at the time, the definitive study of the ancient Library of Alexandria in Egypt, published by UNESCO, which I thought was an odd publisher for a scholarly study. And I read it with interest because the story went as follows. The Egyptian government decided to build a brand new library in the city of Alexandria, glass and steel, high-tech, not necessarily with books on the shelves, but to be a digital hub. el-Abbadi was old school, and believed in having books on the shelves. And so they had a parting of the ways, and so he was not involved ultimately in the planning of the library. LG: And this library was where? MA: In Alexandria, in Egypt. And when the grand opening was held, he was not invited, but they handed out copies of his book to everybody who came to the grand opening, including the president of Egypt. I thought there's a story there. I put it away. And then in my last spring in the dean's office, which would be, would that be '23, I guess spring of 2023, I went back to it thinking about what I'm going to do in retirement. And I thought, well, I'm going to tell his story. And I reread the obituary, and I remembered that he has a surviving daughter, a homeopathic physician in Germany, and a surviving son who is a professor of mathematics in California. I thought I can't write anything without their approval. That got me onto the Library of Alexandria, which got me onto the ancient philosopher, Hypatia, and I decided to write a novel. So for the last two years I've been working on a novel. Today is Thursday. On Monday, I met with the writer, courtesy of the summer Writers Institute with the help of Bob Boyers in the English department, Marc Woodworth in the English department, and Adam Braver, who is the co-director of the Writers Institute. They put me in touch with a writer who lives in Florida who's working on her second novel. I sent her my 300-page manuscript about a month or so ago. She read it with great care and gave me an hour and a half phenomenal feedback. So now I need to go back and make some changes. AndLG: And what are you going to call this? MA: Well, right now it's called the Tattered Satchel. We'll see if the title holds, but she seemed to think it works. It's a story of two women, Hypatia, this ancient philosopher, mathematician, teacher, the daughter of a philosopher, scholar, editor of texts whose A Page 14 of 17 �editions of the texts of Euclid and others survive to this day. She was murdered by a Christian mob in Alexandria in 415 CE. But the other half of the novel is about a liberal arts college professor, by the name of Margaret, who is going to be standing for tenure. So it's two very different stories and eventually their stories, not their lives, but their stories intersect. Margaret turns to Hypatia to help her get tenure, but she does so in a way that would be called devious, if nothing else, deceitful, unethical, and amoral. So that's what I'm working on. LG: It sounds fantastic. MA: It's been fun. I never thought I could write a novel. LG: Did you have to get an agent? MA: That's next. When I'm done with this version, I still want to show it to a couple of people, I gave it, for example, to Steve Stern who used to teach in the English department at Skidmore. Acclaimed novelist, I think has written 16 novels. He read it about a year and a half ago. He was enormously helpful in helping me think about... Because I'm no novelist. I'm an historian, so he really helped me think about the tools that you need to write a novel. I shared a reading with Sue and Leslie and some other friends. I've had a couple of other people read it. Leslie has read it a couple of times. I think it's better. I don't know that it rises to the level of something that ought to be published. I hope it will be. We'll find out. LG: Good luck. MA: Thank you. LG: Anything else we should cover? MA: Just one small thing. It's not small. It was significant. It was the morning of 9/11, and my office was in Ladd Hall, which is attached to the center of campus, the Student Union Case Center. And I was walking to the library, to library 203 where I was teaching a Latin class. That was the very beginning of the fall semester. And there used to be a TV downstairs in the spa, the cafeteria. And so the TV was on, and I saw a friend and colleague, Reg Lilly, in the philosophy department standing in front of the TV. Now I happen to know that Reg is a basketball fan and a Chicago Bulls fan, and I happened to know that that day Michael Jordan was announcing he was leaving Major League Baseball and coming back to basketball. I had a few minutes. I thought I'd go grab a cup of coffee, say hi to Reg, and go to class. A Page 15 of 17 �I saw the aftermath of the first plane hitting the World Trade Center. I went to my class, and I told the students what had happened. I asked them if they want to cancel class, and they said, no, please teach. And so we stayed together for, it was probably 80 minutes. And when I left the library, I ran to a bunch of librarians. They were hearing various rumors. They heard the State Department had been hit. They heard that the White House had been hit. We didn't know yet the full extent. At that point, the second tower had been hit, and I ran into Pat Oles back in Case Center. Pat, at the time, was the Dean of Students. I'll never forget this. He had a stack of paper printed out with the names of every student who had a parent or family member who worked in the World Trade Center. We lost no parent or family member. We did lose one alumnus whose name is commemorated on a plaque outside of a classroom in I think on the first floor of Bolton Hall. LG: And who was that, do you remember? MA: I forget his name, but he's there. But I remember the students and how they responded later in the day. So we went back to the department not knowing what to do. And one of the students said, let's go give blood. So a bunch of classics faculty and a bunch of our students who are majors who used to hang out and I think really wanted to be with somebody, we drove downtown. I forget exactly where it was, but it was in one of the buildings that used to be part of Skidmore. And we got in line and offered to give blood and they said, we're overwhelmed. We can't take anymore. But I just remember how the students responded. So I'll never forget that moment. However awful it was, the students' desire to contribute. It says something about our students. LG: Good. Anything else that you want to include? MA: No, that's it. Just, thank you. Thank you for doing this project. It's important, I think, for not just the retirees who get a chance to talk about their experience at a place like Skidmore College. But if anyone is listening, if anyone is reading the transcripts, and I hope they are, to learn something about the place where they work or worked. I wish I had had this. I've always wanted to write volume two of Mary Lynn's “Make No Small Plans”. LG: Good. MA: But my volume two was not going to be what Mary wrote. It was going to be the scandals of Skidmore. I just don't think I have the nerve at this point to do it. I don't know that any of these transcripts reveal any of the scandals. You would know better than I. But I think someone needs to write that and circulate it anonymously. LG: Okay. We'll wait for edition number two. MA: Okay, deal. Thank you. LG: Thank you, Michael. A Page 16 of 17 �MA: Thank you. SB: Thanks, Michael. LG: This has been wonderful. A Page 17 of 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Arnush Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:52 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Arnush Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 17, 2025 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Michael Arnush came to Skidmore in 1989 as Director of Classical Studies, after receiving his PhD in classics and ancient history from the University of Pennsylvania. He served many roles during his tenure at the College: he taught Greek and Latin languages and history; developed the first summer program abroad which included students, alums and Skidmore board members; built the Honors Forum; developed and directed the First Year Experience, and developed and taught in the Scribner Seminars Program. Michael served on several college committees and in 2020 became Associate Dean of the Faculty for Student Affairs. He retired in 2023. Since retirement he has been writing a novel, “The Tattered Satchel.” Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e117be41e17e8a6d5e38cdc3d5da0de4.jpg 01baab5a59c6a0dde8bce64de744d146 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b2d23674ba8ba8fe60349204810c2168.m4a e3a73dd6e8216f0ecca8ec28c5601425 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/aad5143705f35bb29f45707859a67e1a.pdf 3d3f2244e7afcf4b97fd6f96b86cea02 PDF Text Text Millie Tan ‘77 Interview Log June 7, 2017 00:00:03 Class of 1977, from Jackson Heights, Queens, in New York City 00:00:12 Lives in Chapel Hill, North Carolina 00:00:23 Major in History and Minor in Secondary Education 00:00:40 An average week was a mix of classes, studying, and interactions with classmates of all classes 00:01:00 Lived in a co-ed dorm and remembers late night conversations 00:01:35 Remembers a long conversation on world hunger 00:03:50 First thought would be an English major until took a course with Tad Corroda who became mentor 00:02:50 Took courses in Philosophy and branched out in social sciences 00:06:00 Chinese-American parents didn’t read or write Chinese or English 00:06:40 Visited Skidmore, completely different than Queens 00:07:30 Insecure about inexperience to extracurricular that other students had 00:08:38 Skidmore allowed Millie to develop through professors and classmates 00:10:00 Weren’t many minorities, smattering of international students 00:13:00 Didn’t feel that there was much activism 00:14:04 Felt Skidmore was a bubble, everything was possible, little obstacles to make things happen 00:17:145 Social, interpersonal, building aspect had a long impact on Millie 00:18:40 Loves “Creative Thought Matters” 00:19:00 Strong believer in the liberal arts education 00:21:00 Regrets not studying abroad, thought wasn’t affordable 00:22:08 Feeling of serenity on campus 00:23:12 Worked in Dining Hall 00:25:20 At reunion, reconnecting with friends 00:30:50 Skidmore creates a community and hopes that continues   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Millie Tan Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 26/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Millie Tan '77 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 07, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Alum Diversity History Jackson Heights North Carolina https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/30023c8d5f576bb756ff50af6ecc1e1e.JPG e77bd25b769f7786bcfa9b785f0bab9d https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e450cd2aa06188cc48f0d0e6eb9e0533.mp3 697aa0083f629405834ab0dc0d2dfea7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/49ecc97f2669a34284c661e45ab3c5bc.pdf 5a863ce456df35ad6bca5f39f124937f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/14be3376b4e6b2db8945fd051fd753d8.pdf 758770f681ae6e2216f8359064a04b16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam, Sound and Story Project of the Hudson Valley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mimi Ciancio Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:07 minutes Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit December 13, 2018 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mimi Ciancio Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 16, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Abstract A summary of the resource. Interview with Mimi Ciancio by Eileen McAdam, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, June 16, 2015. Date Accepted Date of acceptance of the resource. Examples of resources to which a Date Accepted may be relevant are a thesis (accepted by a university department) or an article (accepted by a journal). December 9, 2015 Date Copyrighted Date of copyright. December 9, 2015 Date Submitted Date of submission of the resource. Examples of resources to which a Date Submitted may be relevant are a thesis (submitted to a university department) or an article (submitted to a journal). December 9, 2015 Date Issued Date of formal issuance (e.g., publication) of the resource. December 9, 2015 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. December 9, 2015 Date Valid Date (often a range) of validity of a resource. December 9, 2015 Description An account of the resource Mimi Ciancio, held a variety of positions at Skidmore College. She started out as an active faculty wife in 1965, worked briefly in the Admissions Office, then was hired to teach in the English department. She later became one of the creators of Skidmore’s Summer Opportunity Program and served as a valued advisor and mentor to many students who attended Skidmore through that program. admissions Civil Rights coeducation David Porter Diversity Faculty Wives Feminism Increasing Applicant Pool Opportunity Program Palamountain Summer OP Program The Surrey Town-Gown Relations https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/94967903d2e10a03e2bc41a3a8bdcba8.JPG 557e9c36b8075307bd8a780349f72913 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/219f5b65bcaf1712a078dc114ebdd8d7.m4a aa62e98961651e1775e1ce236415aff6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b7a5948f9c56bcd2e743ad2edd17cc06.pdf 6245248b8ce1b11dc5709cbec67ce2fb PDF Text Text Interview with Murray Levith by Susan Bender & Leslie Mechem (recording tech), Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, February 26, 2026 Sue Bender: This is Sue Bender, interviewing Murray Levith for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project. It's November 4th, 2025, and we are in the Lucy Scribner Library on the Skidmore campus. Welcome, Murray. Murray Levith: Thank you. Sue Bender: Let's start by reflecting on your formative years. Where did you grow up and what was your childhood like? Murray Levith: I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and I was a pretty serious musician from about age six. I played in many orchestras. I thought that I might want to go to a liberal arts college rather than, for example, the University of Pittsburgh in my hometown, which was then a private university. And I went to Washington & Jefferson College. Washington & Jefferson had about 900 male students only, and it was a liberal arts college. I think it was founded by the Presbyterian Church in 1790, even older than Union College. I had a very wonderful experience there. I encountered in my freshman composition course Edwin M. Moseley, who eventually became chair of the English Department at Skidmore, Dean of the Faculty, Provost, and for a time Acting President. He influenced my whole career. I wasn't a very intellectual high school student. I hadn't read all the books that I was supposed to have read, but Edwin made them so interesting when I was a freshman in college that I did read them all. I had a very interesting coming to Skidmore College. I did a master's degree at the University of Nebraska because I wanted to be a poet at that time. And I wanted to study with Karl Shapiro, who was eventually what amounted to be the Poet Laureate of the U.S. And he was called the Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress and eventually that became the poet laureate position. And I had a good and personal relationship with him as a graduate student. I did a master's degree there in Lincoln, Nebraska, and I played the violin in the Lincoln Symphony as a professional violinist.We had some interesting soloists. For example, just before she debuted at the Metropolitan Opera, Leontyne Price played or sang with the Lincoln Symphony, but we also had Bob Keeshan, Captain Kangaroo, who was another performer with the symphony. From Lincoln, I went on to Syracuse University to do a Ph.D. The reason I went to Syracuse was because Edwin went to Syracuse. And there was a group of us at Syracuse who would come to Saratoga Springs and visit with Edwin and Kay. And I have always been so impressed with Edwin, but I wanted to mention something about Kay. When we came to their home for dinner from Syracuse, there was this plush green carpet, and in a corner was a blonde harp. Kay played Page 1 of 15 �the harp, and I was so impressed with that. I guess I was pretty provincial, but I thought that was the ultimate of sophistication. Back to Edwin, I did a book of Festschrift for Edwin in 1978, I believe, and I wanted to read the first paragraph of the preface to the book because it was my impression of Edwin as a teacher, and he was a teacher at Skidmore, too, in addition to being the other things. "Edwin M. Moseley himself exhibited a few of those significant gestures he told us were characteristics of American writers in the '20s and '30s. He would enter class, place his folder of notes on the lectern, unbutton the pocket watch from his lapel. We wore church keys, dangling from a string, in imitation, church keys being can openers, and take attendance. The South Carolina dialect rolled out to us as cultured, worldly, and exotic as any from Oxford in England. During the lecture itself, he sallied back and forth in front of us, explaining, asking, analyzing, provoking. He punctuated insights by smoothing his tie, lightly clapping his hands together, adjusting his jacket. He dressed immaculately. And doing what we called deep knee bends, like a pious man at prayer, he invoked the muse of learning with his wise and knowing incantations. Everything, absolutely everything was written on the blackboard. Significant words were connected with magical arrows. Lines bisected circles. X's and O's were meaningfully juxtaposed. At the end of the class hour, when the writing and diagramming was complete and the blackboard was filled to the edges, as was his coat with chalk dust, Dr. Moseley, with open hands, slapped the board and declare, 'It's all here. It's all here. It's all here,’ he would say again. It was for us, for sure.” Sue Bender: Lovely, and did Edwin have a role in your coming to Skidmore, then? Murray Levith: Well, that's another storyMurray Levith: ... yes. Sue Bender: ... another story, thenMurray Levith: Okay. Sue Bender: ... how you came to Skidmore. Murray Levith: I came to Skidmore three weeks into the semester in 1967. My predecessor was a member of the International Explorers Club. He was an Australian, and he left to lead an expedition to the North Pole for Bulova Watches. This sounds like an unbelievable story, but my son, who has written a memoir, has actually talked to this man's son. The man's name was David Humphreys, and so Page 2 of 15 �here was the situation in 1967. Humphreys, three weeks into the semester, left Skidmore. Edwin was the Dean. There was a new chair of the English Department, Tom Goethals, who had come from Sarah Lawrence College, and at Columbia, one of his good friends was John Deal, who was on my dissertation committee at Syracuse. John called Tom Goethals, inviting him to a party at Syracuse, and Tom said, "Oh, I can't come. I have to find someone to plug into this person that left." So here is Murray Levith, whose mentor was Edwin Moseley as an undergraduate, who went to Syracuse University because Edwin Moseley made a call and I got a part-time instructorship. Back in those days, that's what happened. And so anyway, Edwin called and said, "Come over." This was on a Wednesday. I had a perfunctory interview with him on Thursday. On Monday, I was teaching The Faerie Queene, and the doors at the English Department at Regents Street were open. Miriam Benkovitz was in one room listening, Alberta Feynman was in the next room listening, and Julia Hysham was in the third office listening to me about The Faerie Queene. I guess I passed, and was at Skidmore for 41 years. Sue Bender: Can you describe what the college was like when you arrivedMurray Levith: Yes. Sue Bender: ... in 1967? Murray Levith: Yes. I think that Edwin was instrumental in trying to take the College from a, and I don't think the faculty would have said this, but from a finishing school for women to a real academic institution, a liberal arts college. And Tom Goethals was hired to make the English Department more academic. He had been at Harvard for his PhD. He was a novelist, he was a scholar, and although the women in the department then, I think, were good scholars, Miriam Benkovitz was a PhD from Yale, Alberta Feynman from Columbia, Julia Hysham from Columbia, the tone was not as academic as it might have been. And the first three young men that were hired by Tom Goethals were Mark Gelber, Don Stoddard, and Murray Levith. The town [Saratoga Springs] was a disaster. You could buy one of the mansions on Broadway for about $35,000. The best restaurants were The Golden Dragon and D'Andrea's downtown. There was also one strange one called Willie Rum's where the drinks were from Mason jars, water from Mason jars. So it was kind of, sort of, not so upscale as it is now. The College, for me, was wonderful. I was a very young man in a college that was all women. I had been to a college that was all men, and our dating college was at that time Chatham College, which was in Pittsburgh, 90 miles away. We used to drive back and forth on the weekends. It was kind of dangerous. So anyway, this was something that I had to ask Edwin about. And so I asked him, I said, "What's the policy on dating students?" And he said, "Don't make the front page of The Saratogian." Sue Bender: Page 3 of 15 �A different time. Murray Levith: A very different time. So I waited until she graduated, and then we started dating, and in December will have been married 53 years. Sue Bender: She being a Skidmore student? Murray Levith: She being a Skidmore student whose mother was a Skidmore graduate in the Class of 1940, and whose father was a Union College graduate. So there's a long tradition here. Sue Bender: And what was the physical campus like at that time? Murray Levith: There was one... I think the tower was up in the library. Sue Bender: On the North Broadway campus. Murray Levith: On North Broadway, but it was all downtown. Sue Bender: Okay. Murray Levith: I had an office at 43 Union Street, which for a 28-year-old assistant professor, or at that time I was an instructor, hadn't finished my PhD yet, was really amazing. And I could teach whatever I wanted to, and so I had done my dissertation in the 17th century and had studied English literature from what was called the Early Modern Period. And Shakespeare was a special interest of mine, and so I replaced, eventually in a year or two Alberta Feynman, who was the Shakespeare person. There was another woman, Deborah Kifer, whose husband was in the History Department, who was also a Early Modern specialist, and I don't know the background to this story, but somehow she either didn't get tenure or didn't get reappointed or something. So I was in that slot as a very young person, and I didn't finish my dissertation until 1970, January 1970, when I became an assistant professor. And then I got another contract and I got tenure and things went from there. In my first two years at Skidmore, I played the violin in the Albany Symphony, and Frank Carver, who was in the Music Department at that time, who was a flute player, we would go down to Albany for two rehearsals before the concert. But with a full Page 4 of 15 �load, and I should mention loads in a minute, but also these rehearsals in Albany, I played for two years and then I played in the Skidmore Orchestra for about 20 or 25 years. I also played in a trio with Dick Speers from the Math Department and Helga Doblin from the Language Department. And then, so everything was terrific for me, and then came Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, the Student Strike, Bobby Kennedy on campus, Bernadette Devlin, the troubles in Ireland, she came to campus, Kent State. A lot of big troubles in America as well as on campuses. Regis Brodie was a professor in the Theater Department, and he asked his studentsSue Bender: Wasn’t Regis in Art? Murray Levith: ... oh, I meant, no, Alan Brody, I'm sorry. Sue Bender: Alan Brody, okay. Murray Levith: Alan Brody, not Regis. Thank you. Regis was also from Pittsburgh. We had a contingent of Pittsburgh people at Skidmore, but Alan Brody asked his students to grade themselves. Michael London, who was in the English Department, gave everybody an A. This was during the strike. Sue Bender: And that was in support of the students? Murray Levith: Support of the students, yeah. Sue Bender: For striking? Murray Levith: For striking. They were in the Administration Building. There were all kinds of demonstrations on campus, and so on. It was a very volatile time, and the professors and instructors had to make decisions about how they were going to grade the students at the end, what the class policy was for coming to class, and so on. It was a very difficult time. Sue Bender: Who was the president then? Murray Levith: Page 5 of 15 �This was Joe Palamountain, and believe it or not, Joe Palamountain would come to me and ask me to write letters. Let me give you one example. There was an orchestra composed of people from the community, and Skidmore people from the Music Department and other departments. And a couple of these people from the community were kids who were serious musicians, and Frank Carver was the conductor. And he made some comment to one of the kids that, "You weren't playing on time," or, "You were out of tune," or something. And so this child's mother called Joe Palamountain and said, "You can't do this," and it really upset this little boy. Not so little, maybe 16 or 17. And so Joe came to me and said, "Write a letter to this lady and I'll sign it." And so I told the story of when I was in the Pittsburgh Youth Symphony. Karl Kritz, who was the associate conductor of the Pittsburgh Symphony, was our conductor, and he had a cat. And he would bring the cat to rehearsals, and if we weren't playing just right, he would pick up the cat by the scruff of the neck and throw the cat against the wall. The cat loved it. And so I wrote the letter and never heard anything more, but that was just one letter. There were other letters that he asked me to write as well. Sue Bender: What kind of leadership did Edwin provide the faculty in those tumultuous times? Murray Levith: I was not... At that point, I was a very young professor, so I really didn't know. I wasn't on CAPT at that time or some of the major committees. And so I eventually was on CAPTS it was called. I was the chair of CAPTS, in fact, and I was on many committees. Sue Bender: Okay, and just for clarification, CAPT is the Committee on Appointment, PromotionsMurray Levith: Promotions and Tenure. Sue Bender: ... and Tenure and Sabbaticals. Murray Levith: ... and Sabbaticals, but it was CAPT first. No sabbaticals on the end of that, and I had... Well, I'm going off. I mean, bring me back, but I had wonderful sabbaticals. Sue Bender: We will talk about them. Murray Levith: Okay. So anyway, we're talking here about the difficult times, and also this was a time of coeducation at Skidmore, and that was difficult, too. We were on a 4-1-4 program with a winter term in the earliest days of co-education, and this was a way of bringing male students from Page 6 of 15 �Colgate and other places to intermix with the Skidmore students to do on-campus and offcampus things. Of course, I liked the winter term a lot because it gave me a chance, and this was in the very early days, to do foreign study courses. I was among the very first persons to take a group of students to England, and did that a number of times myself and also once with Mac Oswalt from the Psychology Department. We studied Freud in Vienna, and then applied Freud to the drama in London was that particular course. I also did a course in mysticism in literature for 4-1-4. That was an on-campus course. But what happened, and this often happens, I think, in newer programs, I think it happened also in the liberal studies program, is that people get tired of it, the new thing. And that happened with winter term, and my sense was that some professors and some students were taking advantage of winter terms that were not as academic as they might have been. Just as a little aside, when I went to college, the semesters were 16 weeks, and you could read a lot more books in 16 weeks than 13 weeks and get a lot more instruction. And I think that things have been, I don't know, shaved down too much. Tom Goethals turned the English Department into a more academic department, but Bud Foulke, who came in and stayed for a while, really shaped the English Department with its committee structure to be a happy place. I had I can't imagine a better career than at Skidmore College during those days. I think those days are over now, but the faculty really shaped things. They shaped the curriculum. They shaped the academic attitudes. All kinds of good things happened during the time that I was here. I was on the Presidential Search Committee, which found our first female president, Jamie Studley. People still come up to me and say, "What did you do? How did you do that and why did you do that?" And my answer to that, and it was a very good committee, I should say. Who was on that committee? Bill Dake. There were a whole bunch of people, including faculty people that were elected from the faculty. Tom Denny was the other faculty member. You can only hire what's in front of you, and what happened was she was the best, I thought, and the committee thought the best that was in front of us. She didn't turn out to be the best for Skidmore. However, to compensate, we got David Porter. I'll never forget going to Swarthmore College to look at Swarthmore College with my older son. And David had gone to Swarthmore, and following that I think he went to Princeton. So we're sitting there in the admissions office, and the person said, "Our college is often confused with a women's college in New York." I'll never forget that. Our son went to Haverford instead. But anyway, sabbaticals? Sue Bender: Sure. One thing before we leave sort of your early years here, if you could describe a little bit what it was like as the college moved and the faculty moved from the old campus downtown to the new campus, and also at the same time that the college was going co-ed, right? Murray Levith: Yes. Sue Bender: So two big changes happening at once. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how those things affected your work and the life of the students on campus? Page 7 of 15 �Murray Levith: Sure. We compared ourselves with Vassar, and we said that Vassar stooped to accept men that were not up to the women's standard. However, and I don't know where this claim came from, that we accepted men who were equal to the women. Now, I don't know if that's true, but that's what was said on campus. I found the men in my classes just as good as the women, some even better, and there were... The women in the early, well, in about 1970, '71, were terrific. In fact, the college's reputation was not as good as the students were. And I think that's happened all through Skidmore's history. You know, we're in a great town, we have a great, beautiful campus. We've had good leadership and we've had alums. We look at the Science Center, we look at the Wellness Center. We look at the buildings on campus, and there's no Porter building. There's a Porter Greek-style theater. Someone should do something about that. He was fabulous, and this is a nice segue into sabbaticals. Sue Bender: Okay. Murray Levith: My first sabbatical, I was newly married, and this was to Germany. The community at Skidmore was terrific. Helga Doblin and Rudy gave me their house in Germany rent-free, gave us their house rent-free in Grossweil, and their car, and their Fiat, which I immediately totaled in a special way by... They had a slope into the driveway and they had a metal garage door, and I managed to slide into the garage door, smashing the front of the car. But they forgave me, apparently, but other people have benefited from their house in Grossweil. For example, Paul Hockenos, who was just on campus, Warren and Ann and their family stayed in the same house. Dick Speers stayed in the same house. It was very interesting for me to be there, especially as a Jew in a place where Helga pointed out all the Nazis in the town. And I went to the Gartenschule and learned some German, enough German to converse, as did Tina. In fact, the teacher always said, "Frau, immer besser," always better. She passed back the exams. But anyway, it was a wonderful experience for us, a great experience. That was the first sabbatical. I produced a book, Shakespeare's Names. It's what's in Shakespeare's names, and the book was published both in England and America, and then 2021, it was republished and is currently available. Second sabbatical was to the People's Republic of China, and I think that my foreign study courses at Skidmore and the Germany experience allowed me to apply for positions to teach in India and China. India eventually came through, but they came through after China. And we were so fortunate. We had a 10-year-old and an eight-year-old, and I was a foreign expert and Tina was a foreign teacher. She had been a high school teacher. And we spent sabbatical there with our kids, and this was when China was opening up, Deng Xiaoping, and this was just before Tiananmen in 1989. Sue Bender: You were at Qufu University? Page 8 of 15 �Murray Levith: Qufu Normal University. Qufu, the city, was Confucius' hometown, so there was the Confucian Mansion, the Confucian Graveyard, and in the graveyard, we discovered that my 10-year-old was fluent in Mandarin because we went on a picnic to the graveyard. And there was this old guy in a kind of military kind of coat, and all of a sudden, they were having a conversation in Mandarin. We put both of our kids in the Chinese school, but we also took the textbooks from Lake Avenue, which was the elementary school then, and we sort of homeschooled them during the two-hour break during that period. And they had... They say... We thought our younger son had a terrible experience because he was shy and he was eight and they were fighting in school in between the classes. But he says now that it was a wonderful experience, and we knew that our older son, who now is in the government, in the Foreign Service, his... had a great experience, too. And we did, and I published my second book. I did the galley proof. This was Shakespeare's Italian settings and names, so it was published by Macmillan in England and St. Martin's in the U.S. And so I not only taught the students, who were wonderful students, some of them spoke English so well, never having been out of China. And so that was the second sabbatical. Sue Bender: One, before we talk about your other sabbatical, could we follow up on the Qufu University connectionMurray Levith: Sure. Sue Bender: ... [inaudible 00:37:39]? You were the first of the Skidmore professors to teach at Qufu, but didn't other folks follow you? Murray Levith: Yes, actually, Tina and I organized the programSue Bender: Right. Murray Levith: ... and it went on for 20 years. In the last few years, Sandy Welter took over. She had been there as a teacher, and so it was a program that was... I guess it was sort of official and nonofficial. It didn't seem to become an official program in the sense that other foreign programs were. But I thought that it really.... Well, I can give you a few examples of people who've gone on. Claude Brodesser became a journalist afterwards. He's married to Taffy Brodesser-Akner, the novelist, who writes for The New York Times. So students had an experience there that they otherwise wouldn't have had after graduating from Skidmore. And it was a good time in China. There were two universities we were affiliated with. One was Qufu Normal University, and the other was the University of Petroleum, which was a Page 9 of 15 �scientific university. But Dave Marcell, David Porter, and I went over to China, and the president of Qufu University came over here in a delegation both ways. David Porter was wonderful. I found out all kinds of things about David Porter on this trip. For example, he was an authority on Oriental rugs. Did you know that? Sue Bender: No. Murray Levith: In Hong Kong, we went from one rug place to another. But the thing that I remember there is I don't like heights very much. Is it acrophobia? Is that? Sue Bender: Mm-hmm. Murray Levith: Yeah, and one of the sacred mountains in China is Mount Tai, and you're supposed to go up to Mount Tai. And there's this big rock that leans over a gorge, and you're supposed to go over when the sun is coming up. And so we hiked up, we went to this big rock, and I was panicked. David Porter held my hand up there. And it was a good time to also be personal with Dave Marcell, who I had known, who I think was at Skidmore maybe in '66 or '65. I'm not exactly sure, but I think he was just before me. Bill Brynteson was another History Department person. But anyway, I got to know there was a real community, and I thought every place was like that, and soon found out no place was like that. But anyway, and along the way, and ISue Bender: Could I just have aMurray Levith: Sure. Sue Bender: ... quick follow-upMurray Levith: Sure. Sue Bender: ... question? And on the Qufu programMurray Levith: Okay. Page 10 of 15 �Sue Bender: ... now, faculty went to teach there, but you mentioned students. I didn't realize that students were... that that program created opportunities for the students. Murray Levith: For students. Yes. Sue Bender: How did that work? Did students go over to teach? Murray Levith: Yes. Sue Bender: Aah. Murray Levith: China was very interested in getting Native American speakersSue Bender: Okay. Murray Levith: ... and what they would teach, it was called Speaking and Listening. And we oriented them. Tina and I basically talked to them about what they were supposed to be doing, and they were getting teaching, actually, teaching experience when they were doing that. And faculty also went over, business faculty. I'm trying to think of... Oh yeah, education faculty, art faculty, and there were exchanges that were done because faculty from Qufu came to our place. And we also tried to get students from China to come, and at that time we couldn't do that. It wasn't allowed. And we had minders, people who were watching us to make sure we weren't doing the wrong thing. And I remember teaching Tess of the d'Urbervilles, and there was a knock at the door. And a student monitor, they had monitors there, they're sort of the head student, usually a Communist Party person, said, "We were upset when you mentioned something that was not quite polite." And it had something to do with Tess, if you know the novel. But anyway, and it was great fun. I mean, we played basketball, we had all kinds of interactions with students, and even interactions with students who eventually came to the U.S. to study. Sue Bender: Wonderful. Terrific experience sounds like. Murray Levith: It was. Page 11 of 15 �Sue Bender: Yeah. Did you have other sabbatical experiences that you wanted to share? Murray Levith: Well, I also went to Cape Cod for a year, and I was working on a book then as well that I could have done anywhere, but my brother-in-law and sister-in-law are in Cape Cod, and so we rented a house and... Sue Bender: So is that sort of all part of your sense of the way in which Skidmore was supporting faculty scholarship? Is thatMurray Levith: I would say this. My scholarly production would not have happened without my colleagues, my English Department, the happiness that was here at that time. You know Creative Thought Matters, that slogan, I was a provincial kid from Pittsburgh, and the world opened. It was, I couldn't have had a better... This is what I wanted to do. I mean, how many people get to do what they want to do? Sue Bender: That's wonderful. Well, those are all wonderful stories, and it sounds like a really productive, happy career here at Skidmore, but as we all know, life of a faculty member is never unidimensional. Murray Levith: That's right. Sue Bender: So are there any significant challenges that you experienced for the college, for teaching, sort of governance here at the college? What were some of the major challenges that you recall along the way? Murray Levith: Well, I mentioned one already, the presidential search. Also, the English Department had some flare-ups. We had times when there were a bunch of people up for tenure, and there was even someone who sued the English Department. Is that me? Sue Bender: Mm-mm. Murray Levith: But anyway, and I know that Ralph [Ciancio] and Bud Foulke were involved in things that were done outside of the college that they had to do and answer for. But I thought during... As much Page 12 of 15 �as I knew, I thought things were very fairly done, and I think that Bud Foulke deserves a lot of credit for this because of the Curriculum Committee, but especially the Personnel CommitteeSue Bender: Is that Departmental Curriculum [inaudible 00:48:28]? Murray Levith: ... Departmental, Curriculum, and Personnel Committee. But the thing, too, is we got to teach what we wanted to teach. I don't think people were forced into situations, except in one instance. We divided Composition into three parts, 103, 105, and 107. We gave a test right at the beginning, an essay test, and put some of the more giftedSue Bender: A test for the first-year students. Murray Levith: ... first... Yeah, first-year students to see the skills, the writing skills of the first-year incoming freshmen. And so we separated some out who were already good writers into one 107, and then people that needed extra help were in 103. Now, Bud's idea was that everyone in the department would teach 103. So this was an important kind of thing to do. So Mimi Ciancio and I were there in line, and we were teaching 103, and we looked behind us and there was no one in back of us. We were it for the first couple of years. No one wanted to teach the students that needed extra help, and most of the students in Composition were in 105. But we had some just excellent students, students that went to grad school, that became professors and so on. Yeah, so that was one of the downers, but I never was asked to teach anything that I didn't want to. Sue Bender: That's an important plus for a faculty member inMurray Levith: EspeciallySue Bender: ... [inaudible 00:50:48]. Murray Levith: ... in English. Yeah, I know that Ralph Ciancio taught at Carnegie Tech, which is now Carnegie Mellon, and it was the Service Department. There were no English majors there. Sue Bender: And English, how would you assess English's position among the departments at Skidmore? Page 13 of 15 �Murray Levith: Well, Edwin was hired as the chair of the English Department and quickly... I think it was Josephine Case decided that he should be Provost or a Dean of... No, Dean of the Faculty, and then he got to be Provost. And there was a dustup with Edwin because Joe Palamountain gave him tenure without going through the faculty. And it was a big, big, big to-do because at that time, the faculty, there weren't as many administrators, and the faculty were running things, you know? Sue Bender: Wouldn't happen today. Murray Levith: No. Sue Bender: So are there any other memories that you would like to share with us of your time at Skidmore? Have we covered all the topics you wanted to? Murray Levith: Right. Let's see. Yeah, the opportunities to teach in England, Richmond College, at ASE, where in addition to the two summers, I taught for a semester forSue Bender: And ASE is? Murray Levith: ... is Advanced Studies in England, the Bath program. Sue Bender: Mm-hmm. Murray Levith: And let's see, what else? That's about it. Sue Bender: It sounds like a very rich and rewarding career, Murray. Murray Levith: It was, and it goes on. I'm working on aSue Bender: That's what I wanted to ask you. Page 14 of 15 �Murray Levith: ... I'mSue Bender: Since retirement, what haveMurray Levith: ... right. Sue Bender: ... we been doing? Murray Levith: A long time ago, I started a book about two of my professors, one from Nebraska and one from Syracuse. Two poets, mid-Century American Jewish poets, Karl Shapiro and Delmore Schwartz. I started this book 35 years ago. I was in classes with both of them, and I'm now on the last draft chapter of the book, and I've also taught probably a dozen courses for ALL, which isSue Bender: Academy for Lifelong Learning. Murray Levith: ... and for lifelong learning. And I'll be teaching one this winter on John Steinbeck. Sue Bender: Lovely. So it sounds like your literary studies did not retire when you did. Murray Levith: Well, I really loved what I was doing. I loved the scholarship and I especially loved the teaching, and it's nice to teach senior students who read the material very carefully. Sue Bender: Absolutely. Well, this has been lovely. I really have enjoyed hearing your reminiscences and learning things that I didn't know about. We really appreciate your time with us. Thank you, Murray. Murray Levith: Oh, thank you. I enjoyed it, too. Page 15 of 15 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Susan Bender & Leslie Mechem Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Murray Levith Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 54:49 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 20/04/2026 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Murray Levith Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 26, 2026 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Murray Levith joined Skidmore’s English Faculty in 1967, directly from his graduate studies at Syracuse University where he earned his Ph.D. In this interview, Levith describes the impact that Edwin Moseley had on his career, shaping his path to Skidmore, along with his scholarship and teaching. Levith’s experiences at Skidmore spanned the institution’s move to its “new” (North Broadway) campus as well as its transition to coeducation. He reflects here on the many opportunities that Skidmore afforded him throughout his career to conduct scholarship and teach in international settings. Chief among these was his was his pivotal role in nurturing and maintaining Skidmore’s affiliation with Qufu Normal University in China. Levith’s reflections provide perspective on the many changes that the College has undergone in the last 60 years. Since his retirement in 2008, Levith has continued teaching with the Academy for Lifelong Learning and maintained an active research agenda. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History 4-1-4 curriculum Advanced Studies in England (ASE) Bud Foulke coeducation David Porter Edwin Moseley Jamie Studley Joseph Palamountain Presidential Search Committee Qufu Normal University Richmond College https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1385cad585f8c181f726de64d2303fb1.jpg 9a634b74fd20f1319774267f2ef741ce https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2574e5d65743f1eb45b5ef784b9cc07c.mp3 27783708d2cfe3268a42a6521156944e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/722b095771a49c864ef56616c9961079.pdf 358442d5d406a30425fbc753a0e6399d PDF Text Text Narrator: Natalya Lakhtakia Interviewers: Cal Rogers, Zain Sundaram, and Hope Wahrman Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs Date of Interview: April 7th, 2024 Hope Wahrman [00:00:00] So, today is Sunday, April 7th. Um, It's around 10 a.m. This is American Labor History, Oral History Project. I'm Hope Wahrman, I'm a sophomore. Other group members... Cal Rogers [00:00:16] I'm Cal Rogers, I'm a junior. Zain Sundaram [00:00:19] I am Zain Sundaram, I'm also a junior. Hope Wahrman [00:00:23] And our interviewee... Natalya Lakhtakia [00:00:26] I'm Natalya Lakhtakia. I am a speech language pathologist, who lives here in Saratoga Springs! Hope Wahrman [00:00:32] Awesome. Okay so, um I think a good... or the perfect place to sort of begin this interview um is asking or starting from the beginning. Asking about your childhood, where are you from? Sort of, what was that like a little bit. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:00:49] Sure. So I am from State College, Pennsylvania. It's where Penn State is, its what it's known for. Um, I am the daughter of two immigrants. So, my Dad moved to the United States from India. My Mom moved to the United States from Argentina, both to go to graduate school in Salt Lake City at the University of Utah, which is where they met. And about a year after, well not even a year after they met, my dad got offered a job at Penn State University as a postdoc and they moved to State College. And I was born a few years later. So I grew up with two parents working at the university. And unlike Skidmore, Penn State is very very large. When the students are there, it's doubling the population of our community. So, the community is large. You know, the city itself is larger than Saratoga, and then the population of students is very big. So the community is very university centered. And so because of that, I think I got a really, I got an excellent education. I had a lot of opportunities. I had, um a lot of chances to do things with the university that you know, really enriched my life. And then my parents, who are both academics and both from countries where the focus on education I think is a lot better than the United States. I mean more complex, but there's a bigger focus on education than there is in the United States. I had them also supplementing you know, my upbringing. So in third grade my parents said, "Hey, this isn't meeting our child's needs. She is bored at school." And the school is starting to blame me for being bored. And so they moved me to a private school, which is complex as a person who as an adult only supports public education. You know, that's a complex decision. And then when my private school didn't have the resources to do certain things, my parents would fill in. So in sixth grade, you know the sixth graders in public school got to dissect, um animal hearts. And so my mom bought animal hearts for my private school. And so they were really focused on that. They gave me a lot of chances to do things. I got to go to space camp, I got to go to journalism camp, I got to do all sorts of really amazing things. Um, and then I went to Penn State for my undergraduate degree with every intention of becoming an engineer. And after, uh the first year I thought "that's not the right path for me." And, I decided to major in psychology. As a junior in psychology I took psycholinguistics, and I was really, really, really excited about it. And I talked to my professor and I said, "How do I do this as a job?" And she said, "Well why don't you go to the Communication Sciences department and like see what you �could do?" And so she connected me with Doctor Katherine Drager who said "Hey, come work in my lab, do undergraduate research," and I did. So I did my research on, so autistic children who are three and four years old who are using a communication device. I did my research on how the other children were able to understand them, communicate with them, play with them, etc. And so within you know, a few months I said I'm gonna apply to grad school and I'm gonna go to grad school to become a speech language pathologist. I didn't want to go into research, I wanted to do work. And so I wanted to do therapy. And so when I did that and I applied, I thought that I was going to work at a veteran's hospital. I said, "I'm going to work at a VA. It's a guaranteed job for life. There will always be people who need you." Um, and I thought I was going to help people with swallowing and with their voice disorders. So those are two really common things that you're seeing at a veteran's hospital. Because, like war is really really hard on your body. And so those are two things that will come from that: trouble eating and trouble speaking. And then I, as a graduate student at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City which is where my parents went too, I had to do two externships. And I did one in a public school, and I did one in a skilled nursing facility. And I said, "That is not for me." I'm gonna work in a public school. I had an idea of what swallowing disorders were like, but it's actually really really terrible when someone tells you you can't eat. And so I put up with a lot of um, I don't want to say it was abuse because it wasn't like... I understand it, I guess. Um, but people were really really upset to not be able to eat. And I said this is not, I don't want to be the person who's telling them they can't eat. Um, I want to be the person who's playing with kids and helping them communicate. Um, and so I applied with the school district where I had done my internship and they hired me. I did two years there before I said "I actually want to move back to the East Coast." So I moved back here, and I had started dating a guy that I actually went to preschool and also elementary school and also high school and also college. So he was living in Massachusetts, so I moved there. And I ended up getting a job doing early intervention in Rhode Island. So just like for the context of this interview: being a union employee in Utah to being nonunion in Rhode Island. And then a couple of years later, he got a job offer here in New York. So we moved here and I didn't work for almost two years because I got pregnant very, very, very soon after we moved here and I had a really sick pregnancy. And then I had a baby, and I didn't really know how to go back to work. Um, the other thing that was complicated was moving to New York. It is really, really, really hard to get licensed here. It is a lot of work. So in Rhode Island I was able to like get my photograph taken at AAA, and fill out a sheet of paper and go to like the local like state police department and and get fingerprinted. And I handed it all in and I had a license. Here it was an enormous process including, like additional classes. I had to like, call my high school to get specific dates of things like it was a really involved process. But when my son was about eight months old, I got a call from a recruiter saying "Hey, the Santa Fe Public Schools are looking for someone to do teletherapy. Would you want to do that?" And I said "Yeah, that's great." And I will say at that time I didn't really understand a lot of things about employment. And so I started as a contractor with them. So I was not a direct employee of the schools, I had a contract with a company that had a contract with the schools. I was essentially self-employed. But, and it being paid pretty badly I would say, but it was worth it to me because then I could start work at 10 AM because of the time difference. And so I did that for seven school years. And then just this past August, I got a call from the head of special education where he was crying and said "The district has made the decision to end all teletherapy. I have fought, I had even fought for it to just be you who stays, like we don't want to lose you. But we don't have an option, you're out. We're ending all teletherapy." And so um, that was horrible. I will say like, I was really really upset. I didn't get to say goodbye to my students. Like, when you work in a school you're really bonded with kids. But it's also the nature of being a contractor. Like, they can just end your contract. And if you aren't even within the dates of a contract, which I �technically wasn't because they called me a week before school started, they don't even owe you anything. Like, I didn't get paid out a month. I didn't get anything. It was just your contract's... not starting. And so, I took a little bit of time to figure out what I wanted to do. I'm really actively involved in politics here, and I thought "Like I'm good at this. I could do this as my job and I could, you know, continue to have kind of an easier job until my son starts middle school." Um, and I found really quickly that it wasn't the right fit for me. I'm a person who really needs structure, and needs to have a solid work day to stay happy. And so I in December, applied to some local school districts and I got hired at Fort Edward Schools. It's about 30 minutes from Saratoga Springs. It's a very, very, very small community. Um of about 3000 people, there are fewer than 400 students in the pre-K through 12 school. And I'm one of their two speech therapists. And I'm back to being in a union and I'm a member of NYSUT (New York State United Teachers) and then a member of my local, which is the Fort Edward Teachers Association. And I'm really, really excited about that. So that's my history! Cal Rogers [00:09:51] Yeah, awesome thank you. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:09:51] Sorry. Hope Wahrman [00:09:53] (Laughs) No no, that was perfect. Um, yeah. There's so much now that I want to like, ask you about from from that alone so that's great. Hope Wahrman [00:10:03] Also I wanted to just say our professor, Professor Morser sent us like your Linkedin. And so I'd seen that you went to Penn State, and I'm from Philadelphia. There's like a map of Philly in my dorm. And like literally, I'm more like...because I'm closer to Philly than like "state" like a lot of people end up going to like Drexel or Temple. But like at least like 20% of my graduating class goes to Penn State. So. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:10:31] Yes! I'm sure. Hope Wahrman [00:10:31] Love Pennsylvania, love that. Yeah. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:10:35] I know, me too. Hope Wahrman [00:10:37] So yeah, just wanted to. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:10:39] Awesome, no I love that. Hope Wahrman [00:10:40] To make you feel more comfortable, with this. But okay, so sort of talking about, um keeping on track with like your earlier experiences and how that shaped your involvement today. Um, what was your first job? And that can be... You can talk about like your first I guess like quote unquote, like "professional job." Maybe like right out of grad school, but also maybe like your first job as a young adult as well. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:11:09] Sure, yeah. So as a young adult I, well, if you set aside things like babysitting my freshman year of college I actually was a nanny for a cardiologist in town. And I made so much money just from nannying during football games that I didn't do anything else. Like that paid my, that paid for all the things I wanted it to pay for. But, I want to say I was a sophomore in college when I got a job with what was then called MBNA. I don't know what MBNA is now, but it's essentially a bank that gives out credit cards. And I was sitting in like a big room really close to actually my parents house, and I �was making phone calls basically trying to get people to accept a credit card. And, also sometimes calling people who already had credit cards with us and upgrading them. And like thinking about it in this context, so there was another... I think she was a junior who worked with me, her name was Ellen. I don't know Ellen anymore. Like, we only worked together for five months? Maybe. But Ellen and I did not smoke, like I don't smoke cigarettes. And Ellen did not smoke cigarettes. But if you worked at MBNA, you got a 15 minute cigarette break every two hours. And Ellen and I were like, "But how come people who smoke get to leave this like weird like warehouse of desks that we're in and go outside for 15 minutes?! And we don't get to, just because we don't smoke?" And, I probably at that time would not have been the person to push it. I was the person to complain about it. Just to like, Ellen. Who was at the desk next to me! But Ellen was like, "They can't stop us." We went outside one day and our you know, manager was like "You guys aren't going outside to smoke, you can't smoke." And Ellen was like "Okay, I'll start smoking cigarettes if that will let you, if that will make you let me go outside." And our manager, like that was enough for our manager to be like,"Huh, yeah okay. Go outside." And so it was a really interesting thing where like after a month, all of a sudden we had our 15 minute breaks the same as smokers did. Um, but I didn't stay there for very long. It wasn't, um it was like the kind of job that I could do when the semester wasn't going on. When the semester was going on, they didn't have any real trouble with like pushing and pushing and pushing to take over more of my time. And I just was privileged enough to be able to say "Like sorry, I actually don't need you." Um, and so I stopped working there. I started working at Panera. Um, and then I left Panera for a local place a very Pennsylvania place called the Carnegie House, where I was a server. And so, I did that. And I worked at the Carnegie House up until I graduated and moved to Salt Lake City. Hope Wahrman [00:13:58] Cool. Yeah, that definitely answers that question. And then I also just had one other question, kind of based on what you had said earlier. And it's just, so you grew up in a house that really like supported education and self-sufficiency. And like it sounds like every opportunity your parents had to make your education better, they took. And that's really awesome. And they themselves were educators. And so it's it's funny that you you had no idea that that's kind of what you were really interested in like that you went to college for engineering, um and all of that. And so I guess my question maybe is like, do you take anything from your childhood and the way your parents raised you and educate into your work today? Natalya Lakhtakia [00:14:46] So I will say, like I doubt this is what you meant by "selfsufficiency." But I would actually say that both my parents are from very very communityminded societies compared to the United States, which is a very individualist society. And so I think that the biggest thing that I have taken from them and like that upbringing is my dad constantly saying like at least once a week, "No man is an island." Like you're not doing anything by yourself, you're doing everything in the context of the people around you. You are not like, if you do well in life you're not "self-made" like you're community made and all of that. And so to me, that kind of a mindset is what leads you to understand... unions. Because like, I cannot go to a school and do speech therapy by myself. It doesn't exist like that. Like I'm only seeing kids for 30 to 90 minutes a week, right? Like they're spending time with other people who are shaping them. We're not doing it away from their parents, even if their parents never set foot in the school. Which is the case sometimes, that parents are completely they feel disconnected from the schools and they are disconnected from the schools. But we're not doing anything by ourselves. And so I think that um...First of all, it wasn't until I was much older that I recognized that my dad views himself first and foremost as a teacher. Um, because I would recognize him as a researcher. And same thing with my mom. So my mom wasn't an instructor until I was in �high school, my mom was doing research. And so, that's kind of how I viewed academia just from like that perspective. And then my dad started to win teaching awards, and I was like "oh huh...he is a teacher." But my dad's also a professor of engineering. So I would say like my like, I was going to be an engineer like my dad. And so that's kind of how I was viewing what he was doing. Um but again my parents are very focused on like, "everything is in the context of community." And that's really difficult I will say. Like I don't know if you have parents who are from other cultures, but like it is really difficult to be an American student and especially at that time, and to have parents with that mindset when we are in such like a rugged individualist society. And when my friends who were like American with American parents, were living lives that felt very very different from mine. And I also did have a lot of Indian friends who had Indian parents, but most of them had two Indian parents then I didn't. And so that was also another thing where it was like I couldn't really... It was hard to find out my place between these two worlds. And then I don't even know that there was anybody in State College from Argentina at the time. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's I would say that's the biggest thing that I took from them. And something I think about a lot and something that I actually tell people a lot like when I'm talking about, um the labor movement or when I'm talking about socialism. Just these are things that like you don't have to be like outright saying like "Hey, like I personally think that socialism is a better way to do things than capitalism." You can talk about things in that context of like nobody is self-made, everyone is community made. And, I think that that's a way to kind of contextualize the world in a way that helps people see the things that American education is kind of hiding from us. Hope Wahrman [00:18:19] Yeah, that's awesome (laughs). Thank you. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:18:23] Sure. Zain Sundaram [00:18:23] How did you end up working in the Saratoga area? Natalya Lakhtakia [00:18:30] So, um we were living... My husband was working at um... I think it was...I don't remember it went through a bunch of different names. I think it was "Schneider Electric" at the time, in Massachusetts. And... But it had been like different iterations. But they had taken a project that my husband was like, "something's going to go wrong here. Like, we're not going to be able to finish this project, and I'm going to lose my job." And, I was working in early intervention. Rhode Island early intervention is very different from New York early intervention. Here you're a contractor, and you're working with the counties. In Rhode Island, you're a direct employee of a company that's managing all of that. And so, I was working for a company where I would say I was definitely being exploited. I was being held to a different standard than my fellow speech therapists for a couple reasons. I mean the first is that I'm bilingual, and the second is that I didn't live physically on that island where our company was located. And so, I was doing a lot more work than everybody else and I was really tired. And my husband said, "What if we start looking for jobs in other areas?" And so he took a job in Clifton Park. And his boss told him like, "You definitely want to live in Saratoga. It's such a great place to live, you'll love it, etc. etc." We looked at a couple places to rent in Saratoga and could not afford them. And it's obviously only gotten worse. So we took... we found an apartment in Ballston Lake, which is like Exit 11. And we lived there for two years. And then actually... So I'm here in my house in Saratoga, the house across the street...the dad I will say...so the dad grew up with me and my husband in State College, he actually lived in the same neighborhood as my husband. And then his wife went to Penn State, which is where they met. So when we moved here, we like reconnected with them. And so she called me one day and said, "The house across the street is going to go on the market tomorrow. You need to buy it. This is �an affordable neighborhood in Saratoga, and it would be so great." I already had a baby. She was pregnant. And she was like, "It would be so good. None of us have family here. We could be each other's family and support. It's like you have to move there." And so, that's what I did. Like I came here...my mom was visiting, we came, we toured the house. I said, "This house is disgusting." And my mom said, "Nope, this is a good house and you can paint it, like it'll be good." And we bought the house and we moved in. And I will say again like going back to this community idea, like my parents live six hours away. My extended family doesn't live in this country. Their families live more than six hours away. I mean, I think everybody lives in Ohio basically, or DC. And, they don't have other family that's here. But we get to be each other's families like our children are, and I understand that they're not like siblings to each other, but they are. They have this really intense family relationship where like for February break, like I took their daughter with us and we went to go stay with my parents. Like we're doing these things together all the time. And so we got to build our own little community. And I will say, having that kind of community in Saratoga Springs is what keeps me here. Because I don't enjoy living in Saratoga Springs at least 80% of the time. It is a really really tough place to live. And I understand why my husband's wealthy white boss was like, "Hey you should live in Saratoga Springs." But for me it is, it is rough to live here. And so what keeps me here is my neighborhood, and having that kind of a community. Hope Wahrman [00:22:05] Um...really quickly, would you mind kind of talking a little bit about like some of the difficulties in terms of living in Saratoga Springs? Natalya Lakhtakia [00:22:37] So Saratoga is... It is a unique community in many ways. So one of the ways that it is, is that unlike most municipalities in the United States it is getting whiter. And so that is unlike the majority of the United States. So it's getting whiter, the schools themselves are not getting whiter. The schools are actually getting less white pretty, steadily. But there's such an influx here of older white people who do not have children, and so there's that. Our county is one of 3% of counties in the United States that votes in line with the winner of the presidential election. And so like, and I think that that's been happening since George W Bush. But I might be wrong on that. But it's many many years of like, "this county voted George W Bush and they voted for Obama and they voted for Obama, and they voted for Trump, and they voted for Biden." And it is very likely that however this county votes in the next election will also be the winner of the next presidential election. And so what that has led to, is to our county being a kind of testing ground. And with us being kind of the focal point of the county, a lot of that testing happens here. And this makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist, but like we can track like this is something I'm really interested in. And so, you can track that this is happening and you can see. Like if you remember a few years ago, there was a big focus on critical race theory. Not actual critical race theory but like what you know, conservatives were calling "critical race theory" and how that was going to take over the schools. That entire cycle played through in Saratoga Springs before it became a national news story. We had already had an entire school board election here that was focused on critical race theory and it played out in a way that was really interesting. I mean, that was three years ago. And so the people that were elected through that election are now up for reelection here. And so being a testing ground means that there is kind of a constant attack on the left, and that's really tough. I would say that I do not view myself as liberal, because I view liberalism as being very conservative. I am, you know, I'm a leftist. I view myself as being very far to the left. And then because I'm not white and because I am a public figure here, I get to be the target of things. I get to have different things -- I don't know if they're tested on me or if people are just saying them. But there's kind of this like, regular attack on me as a person. And that's really really tough. So it's not only tough to recognize that I'm �raising my son, who I don't think you can see him, but and by all appearances is white. Um, like gets to live in the world as a white child. And like as a tall, fairly well-off, very cute white child which comes with a lot of privileges. So not only am I raising my kid in this very homogenous society or homogenous community but also like... so there's like this, like structural thing that's really tough for me and there's also the personal attacks that are really tough for me. And then there's the other specific level of um, we are one of the we are one of two communities in the entire state of New York that has our particular form of government. Which is called the "commission form of government." The commission form of government is literally illegal in some states. Like it is such a horrible form of government, it was created immediately after... I think after Juneteenth, I think I think it was like 1867ish. It was created to ensure that formerly enslaved people couldn't have the same like ability to be in charge of their municipalities, as like wealthy white landowners. And we still have it here in Saratoga Springs. Since I moved here, there have been a lot of attempts to change that and they both failed. One of them failed by only ten votes, though. Like I mean, there are some pretty close things that are happening. But so because of this form of government, we just have kind of "rule by a specific mindset of person," Which has been led to like very very blatant civil rights violations, specifically against Black people. But also poor people, brown people, etc. And I think that that is something that our community doesn't even really recognize. You know, I would consider myself to be a police abolitionist. Like, I don't think that societies need policing the way that it exists right now in the United States at all. But I think that specifically in Saratoga Springs, the form of policing that we end up having here as a result of the commission form of government, and as a result of the whiteness, and as a result of the wealth here has led to us just being in a really dangerous situation. And again, I feel like a lot of the people around me don't recognize that. And that's because of...and this is the last thing I'll say about Saratoga Springs. I think that Saratoga Springs, being raised here from people who were also raised here, leads to a lack of curiosity. And so there are a lot of people who are like "Why would I leave Saratoga Springs when this is the best place to live? It's so good." Like it's... And it is a good place to live, right? Like there's a lot of stuff to do. It's really beautiful. You're close to things. In general, like your kids' needs are met. Like, there's a lot of good stuff here. And so, I think that there's just these people who aren't leaving this community. Who also have this particular type of like nativism where they're like, "If you're not from Saratoga, then you're not a true Saratogian." Which I'm like, "Okay well, I don't really want to be. I don't care about that." But I think that this has led to people having a very skewed perspective of their community. And therefore, not standing up against the really concerning parts of our community. And again I will say like, I'm making generalizations here. And there are a lot of amazing people here who are standing up to that and who are doing work, and who are trying to make it better. And I'm trying to do that too. But, it it is a very particular type of community that kind of has all these different things going on. And they do add up to being a hard place for me to live like, conceptually. Like I'm like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I live in Saratoga Springs, New York." And also just in terms of like my actual existence here like, "Natalya Lakhtakia living in Saratoga Springs" is having a really really hard time because I am a focus. And, we have considered moving. Like we have talked about it. Not this past December but the December before, somebody posted under a fake name on Facebook. Like, they posted this thing about how like, I'm vermin and "we need to bring out the big guns against Natalya and blah, blah, blah." And that, I will say like having had so many things be said about me over the last five years...that particular like dehumanization like using literal Nazi language against me was enough that I was like "we need to move, like we need to go somewhere else." And my husband was like, "Great, let's figure it out." But at the end of the day like many Americans, we are in some ways stuck here because my husband's job is really really good. And like so we could move to Niskayuna if we wanted to. Or we could move to Clifton Park if we wanted to. But we're �really just staying within the area because my husband's job is so good. And a lot of millennials don't get to have the kind of job that he has, and it's not worth it to give it up. Because he gets raises every year, he's really protected, he gets time off, he gets PTO and medical time off. He gets all these things that like millennials are getting less and less of, and Gen Z is potentially not even getting at all. And it's really really hard to give that up and if we're just going to move within the area, then we are giving up the benefits of our neighborhood community. And I would rather that my son had that neighborhood community and just like, look at social media a little bit less. Hope Wahrman [00:31:04] Thank you. And also like I mean, of course it's difficult living in Saratoga Springs. But yeah, this community really needs people like you. And the work that you do makes Saratoga better. So, thank you... Natalya Lakhtakia [00:31:17] Thank you. Hope Wahrman [00:31:18] ...For staying in spite of all those things. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:31:20] I will also say like, the students in this community are super rad. And, there are things happening in this community that I sometimes I'm like, "Oh my God, like there's really, really good stuff here." So like this is just one thing, I really love musical theater. But our high school just put on Head Over Heels. And, Head Over Heels is a really in your face musical that is like very very blatantly spelling it out for anybody who might not get it: pro-trans. And to have like our high school students put that on, and to see essentially no pushback. No pushback that I saw as a school board member and as a member of the community. And as the friend of parents of a lot of kids in the musical, there was like one parent that was like. And all the other parents were like "Nope, the kids are doing it." And that was the end of that. And I was like okay, that makes me feel good because for us to be so far on the right side of that in terms of protecting trans students and uplifting their stories... Like that to me, I'm like "okay, they're good things in Saratoga too." So I can talk about the bad things all day long but there are a lot of good things here too and I will say that. Cal Rogers [00:32:33] I want to transition a little bit. I want to hear about what your work looks like and your interactions with kids and like...just tell me about it. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:32:44] Yeah. So I'm a speech language pathologist and again, I started this job um... Tuesday will be three months of me working in this particular school district. So I am still learning a lot about it. But I work in a pre-K through 12 school building. And then my particular caseload is grades one through six. And the other speech therapist is doing pre-K, kindergarten, and then like seven through 12. And so my day generally looks like most of the time pulling kids into my room, either individually or in small groups, to do speech and language therapy with them. So it's two different things: either working on their sounds, or working on the actual content of what they're saying or what they're understanding. And then we have a really awesome, strong union and so I have a lot of stuff built into my day that I didn't really realize I guess, what an awesome day I had, I could have, until I started working here. So there are 30 kids on my caseload, that is extremely low. In Santa Fe where I was a contractor, at one point I had 47 kids on my caseload and I was like, "Oh my God, they're going to make me go to another school because this is too low." So I usually had around 60 kids on my caseload. So here we're at about half of that. I do see these kids more often than I saw kids before because I work on a six day cycle. So like when I go back to work on Tuesday, I think it'll be day three. And so I have like my day three schedule that I follow. But the following Tuesday will not be day �three, right? It'll be like day one or whatever, I don't know what it is. So I follow that and sometimes I'm going into classrooms, sometimes I'm pulling kids for testing. And then also under our contract, I can sub for people that are absent for a period. So I can sub for a teaching assistant, or a teaching aide, or I can sub for a teacher. And I get paid different rates for that. And so sometimes I'm doing that as well. And then I have a lot of prep time. But I am so used to not having prep time that I think that I've developed the skills that I don't really need to prepare during that time, like I'll do some prep. A lot of my prep is transitioning things that I previously had that were electronic to now being like printed out and laminated so that we can reuse them over and over again. But usually I'm using that prep time to do billing or to type reports. Then also right now we're in what they call CSE seasons. So CSE is Committee for Special Education. And so I'll have meetings with parents to go over our plans for next year. And then also as we get to like, you know, the different marking period, and I'm typing up progress notes to let parents know how their kids are doing. But the majority of my time is doing therapy, it's doing testing, it's doing billing. There's a lot of billing to do in New York compared to Santa Fe. And the system that we use is actually really inferior to the system we were using in Santa Fe. And I think that's because New York kind of has, maybe because of the BOCES, I don't know. But everybody's using the same system, so it doesn't have to get better because there's no competition. So it's a really time consuming system to do all of my billing. My work day is from 7:55 to 3:00 pm, except for on Fridays when I'm out at 2:45. And because I have a little kid and because of my husband's work day, I get to work at like 7:54. I mean, I'm not getting there before my contract time at all. In general, I'm not staying after my contract time either. And part of that is because the other speech therapist, her husband is such like a strong union guy that he's like "if you can't get your work done during your contract hours, then they need to change how they're giving you work. It's not up to you to figure it out outside of your contract hours. It's up to the district to give you an appropriate work level." And if we stay after he will like jokingly, but also like it's only kind of a joke be like "you guys are being union busters, like you're scabbing." And it's such a good perspective to have from this like really strong union guy of like, "Yeah, why am I staying after? If I didn't get my work done, I got to do it tomorrow." But like my contract hours are from 7:55 to 3. I'm not, I don't need to stay later. And I actually recently went through this, where I contacted the Special Ed director and I said "Hey, I have three IEPs due, those are the individualized education plans that we're writing for students who are in special education. And I have to do all of my progress notes. I don't have time to do this and see my students. What do I do?" And she said, "Oh, actually you get three days that you can request like as time off, but it's only time off from therapy. You're still here doing your paperwork." And she was like, "Why don't you put in for you know, two half days so you can do that?" And that's what I did. And they got my stuff done. So, there's a lot of stuff in place to make sure that I can do stuff. In terms of actually being with kids, we do a lot of "play therapy." So communication in general, as I'm just like making a speech right here. But in general, it's a turn taking exercise, right? Like you take a turn you say something, I take a turn and I say something. And so because of that, it allows us to play a lot of turn taking games while we do our work. And I do have a surprising number of students who need support with turntaking. I actually was not expecting how many of my kids would be in like third and fourth grade and not know how to take communication turns. They know how to take turns on a game, but they don't know how to translate that into their communication. So there are a lot of times where I'm walking down the hallway and three children are talking to me all at the same time. And I'm like, "oh my gosh like this is what we really need to focus on." So a lot of times we're sitting there, we're playing a game, and we're working on whatever their skill is. Sometimes we're reading, I'm reading or they're reading. And then we're you know, working on vocabulary through that. We're working on using context clues to build their inferencing skills. Or we're just working on sounds. There are a lot of kids who are making �speech-sound errors, and I just do therapeutic work with them to help them be able to develop those sounds. Because it's important that they be able to be understood. Cal Rogers [00:39:29] Awesome, thank you. So what are, following up with that, what are some advantages or disadvantages of your job? Natalya Lakhtakia [00:39:40] Um, the work hours are really good. The only thing I would change is if I could start work at like, 8:15. That would just give me a little bit more time with my kid in the morning before I like, send him over to my neighbor's house. And I would be happy to stay until 3:20 for that. But I would say when you work in education, especially right now, you're really bonding experience with your coworkers. I mean, you're responsible for children and there are a lot of families that are really really struggling. Fort Edwards is a really depressed community. I'm still learning about it, but it's my understanding that they used to have a really successful factory there. And when the factory shut down, that really just impacted the community. So I have a lot of students that don't just need to come to school to get an education and to learn how to be like humans in the world and learn how to interact with each other, but they also need like love and support because their parents are really really struggling. They you know... I think a lot of times they think my son gets to like, enjoy breaks. I have kids on my caseload and I'm sure this is the case everywhere, but kids on my caseload that break is like a daunting time for them, and they're really relieved to come back to the structure of a school day. So I didn't really understand it when I interviewed. And they were like, you will get so much love working here. But it is definitely true. And I would call that both a benefit to my job which is that like, my kids are really really sweet and loving and we have such a nice time together and I just, I mean I love children in general. And also just a really sad part of my job, which is to know that like they need love from me because their parents are in such a bad position that they literally cannot meet the needs of their children the way that I can meet the needs of my child. And so that's both good and bad. I really like my coworkers. I like my school building. I like that I get to move around a lot. I spent a lot of time just sitting literally here at this desk, for seven years doing work at this computer. And so it's really nice to get to move around. You get to see, kids are so creative. You get to see what they're creating. You get to create things with them. Like my big thing is if I go into a classroom and they're doing an art project, me too. Like I want to do it as well. And to you know, to do that you get to what my kids think. Kids are really radical. I always love to say that "kids are the truest comrades." Because they are very very cool. And they're living in this very specific way when they're attending public school that just really builds their community ties. And then like as adults, we just don't get to have that in the same way. Especially without having like community centers, the way that I think that we should have them. And so I get to hear like a lot of really radical stuff from kids, and I love that. I get to read books with them, like it's just it's really nice to work in a school. And I had think forgotten that, working from home. Because working from home was fulfilling for me, and it was easy for me. And I still got to see my kids, and it was really fun. But working in a school, you just are in this very specific type of community that I think I wish could be expanded out more. I think that there are education reforms that are needed, for sure. It's not that I think public education is perfect, it's not. But I do think it is much better than just our general communities and existing in that is really amazing, I love that. And then also I will say, New York pays me really well. And I'm not saying that teachers don't deserve to get paid more like, we do. Like I think that my job is a lot more valuable than someone who plays basketball, for example. But I'm not a sports person in general but like I think like what I do, like I love Taylor Swift. But I think that her writing beautiful music maybe doesn't mean that she needs to be a billionaire when teachers should definitely get paid more for the work that we do. But that said like I also get paid significantly better than I got paid �before, in Utah and in New Mexico. Rhode Island was different because I worked you know, 40 hours a week year round. But I get like, the pay is really good. Cal Rogers [00:44:04] So going on to the Utah topic, my dad worked for a trucking company called "Driver Tech" out of Salt Lake City. So uh... Natalya Lakhtakia [00:44:11] That's cool. Cal Rogers [00:44:11] The University of Utah was my first choice for school, but I didn't get in. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:44:19] Well, that's their loss I'm sorry. Cal Rogers [00:44:21] It's okay. So you kind of answered all of my questions, so I'm gonna... Natalya Lakhtakia [00:44:26] Oh, okay! Cal Rogers [00:44:26] I'm gonna put it on the rest of the group, thank you. Zain Sundaram [00:44:35] What would you say is, some of the current local union issues? Natalya Lakhtakia [00:44:41] I mean Skidmore, honestly. It's really exciting that the nontenure track professors are, I guess instructors, are very close to getting you know their collective bargaining agreement done... Is what I was recently reading. I know the RAs were working on unionizing. Although I will admit that I lost track of where that was and what was happening. I also know you know, we had an attempt at unionizing the ALB1 Amazon warehouse. Which is in, I still don't know how to say it. If its Schodack or Shodack I forget. I think it's Schodack, about an hour away from here. But, you know people here work there. We did a really awesome job with unionizing Starbucks. Although, I'm now boycotting Starbucks. So for a while I was like, "I'm gonna go to the union ones." And now I'm like, "I don't need to go to Starbucks at all." So there's that kind of stuff happening. I know that there were some attempts at unionizing Spot Coffee, which was really exciting. But I think that what I appreciate about the area is that there is a lot of just solidarity between the unions. And I don't know how this compares to other places because I was not involved in this stuff before I moved to New York. And I moved to New York in like December 2014. So it hasn't even been you know, a decade yet. But here at least there's a lot of solidarity in the entire region, and the capital region is huge. But there's a lot of work that's being done to take care of each other. There's a lot of collaboration to like, support each other. There's some big union only projects coming up. So when there's a construction project there can be something called the PLA, a Project Labor Agreement. Which means that all of the labor will be union. And also all of the materials will be from union places like unionized...I don't know what the word is...industry? And so there's going to be a few of those. I think that the airport is one of them. And then there's some other bigger projects going on in terms of like the infrastructure in the area so like that's happening. But I think also, there's a lot of discussion going on. And there's a lot of solidarity when there are unions that don't have contracts. So, this is one thing that I can't talk a ton about because I'm on the school board. But the Saratoga Springs Teachers Association did not have a contract for two years. And, well that's misleading. They didn't have a contract for a year and a half. But negotiations are usually about six months. So for about two years they were working on a contract before they got one. And that included a contract that was voted down at the end of last school year. And it was really amazing to �me to watch the solidarity that was happening there and the work that they did. I mean, at one point we had a school board meeting with like 250 teachers at it, all in their union tshirts to show up with signs to basically be like "make this happen." And I thought that that was really amazing. I didn't really expect it I guess, even though I know that we have a strong union. The other thing that I think is really amazing is that. Um, well okay. So actually I will say the same thing happened at SUNY Empire where they didn't have a contract, so they did picketing. And people from different unions are coming. And so what I think is really amazing about unionizing is that you don't have to know the other people, and you don't have to work with the other people to show up and support them. Right? We're all in the working class, we're all together in this. Like the solidarity is so strong. And so I think that that's really amazing to see. I know that like the head of our teachers union was writing letters to Skidmore in support of the unionizing that was happening there. And the head of our CSEA, which is like the staff members of the district, did the same thing. And so they're showing up at pickets together. I think that's really incredible to see. And I will say like even when I feel really, really, really down about the current state of things in our country and world and like what I perceive to be the future. Or like what I'm worried will be the future, seeing like this kind of renewed sense of like labor and like that the working classes hold the tools to the future and the ruling classes clearly don't. I think that that's what really gives me hope. So, yeah. There's also some concerning labor stuff happening in the area, which I think is really interesting. And it gets back to kind of my view of liberalism. Which is that, liberalism is nice as a concept but in practice kind of falls apart. And so in Troy, we saw Capital Roots try to unionize. And they were like, "we're going to unionize." I had a couple friends who work there, and they were like "we're so excited to announce that we're going to do this work." And right away, the executive director and the board were like "Nope we'll just we'll recognize your union. You guys are unionized now. That's great. Like, you don't have to do all of the work. We'll just recognize it." And so everyone was like "Cool, this is great!" And then Capital Roots is basically going to be destroyed because of this. Because while they recognized the union, they then started to actively target different people and fire people. And there was like a lot of retaliation. So they like, recognize the union in concept because they knew that not doing that wouldn't be good. But then they have like many active National Labor Review Board violations that like they're found in the wrong. Capital Roots is falling apart. This is a group, I don't really know enough about what they do but they do like community gardening. And then they provide food to people in the area. So they're doing work that we can all agree is good. But they went on this kind of retaliation spree. My husband and I got to go and like be there to help picket with like Scabby the Rat and whatnot, which was really cool. My husband took off work to do that. But it's a reminder of like, unions aren't a nice idea. Unions are an ongoing, powerful practice. And so I think that sometimes in a place like New York where we are very liberal, we are very blue. Even in you know, like "Red Saratoga County." But like, it's not really right? Like Saratoga is very purple, that we can kind of recognize these good things, but then not actually support the practice. And so Capital Roots is now falling apart. And I think that that's really interesting. I also just like... This is weird to say because I assume that you're all in Gen Z. But I just like Gen Z gives me, like endless hope. Because I'm like. Gen Z with generally Gen X parents know so much and can see what these practices should look like. And I'm really excited for that, because I do think that we're going to see just kind of like a renewal of labor work. Hope Wahrman [00:51:57] Um, Yeah. And I kind of like to that vein of talking about like Gen Z and like their kind of hope for the future... Like what are what are some ways I mean, on Skidmore's campus is like one thing, but what are some ways that you think Skidmore students can sort of get involved in these unions? �Natalya Lakhtakia [00:52:21] So I think that the best way for any Skidmore student to get involved unfortunately costs money. But going to the labor breakfast. So the most recent one was just two days ago, and unfortunately I couldn't be there. But the first Friday of every month with a couple exceptions, I think May and September and July can kind of be iffy for them. But in general, the first Friday of the month there is a labor breakfast that happens at the Desmond Hotel. It's that hotel that's right off of Exit 4, so it's really close to the airport. And, it's a Union hotel. And so there's this labor breakfast where labor leaders and labor like union members and then also like electeds will all get together and talk about what's going on in the area. Because I think that what's going on in the area changes really rapidly from month to month. And so, you can learn about what's going on there. That's actually where I met Eric (Morser). Because I was going there with Minita, who is one of the city council members. And she was like "I'm going to bring my friend Eric from work." And I was like "cool!" And so he came to see it, and so he came to a really interesting one. Where we you know, we really just were talking about Palestine. And it was really interesting to see some of the leaders of the group try to shut down that conversation. And also really interesting to see one of the like, big labor leaders who the executive director... um and what is he? Yeah, he's the executive director of PEF, which is the Public Employees Federation. Get so angry about it, with him being in support of Israel. That he like threatened a woman who is Israeli, and like told her that her baby would be beheaded. Like it was really intense. So Eric got a very intense view of the labor breakfast. But that said, like it is a really awesome way to learn what's going on it is generally a really positive experience and the only reason why I can't go right now is because I have a job that's in-person and doesn't start at 10AM. But it's kind of your chance to learn what's going on in the area. And I think that that's really amazing. What I do know is going on right now close to here, is that the county workers are saying that they don't have a fair contract. And so there's some of the people who work for Saratoga County, I think they're CSEA, and so I know that they're doing pickets around the area. So I think that there's a way for students to get involved and to learn about that. I think it's really interesting that we're a very politically divided society. But when we're talking about the labor movement, that kind of doesn't matter as much, I guess. And I think that is because again, like the solidarity of the working class is so strong when you're unionized that views of like electoral politics just matter less. And I say that as somebody who like I would generally identify electoral politics as like my sports. Like I love to follow it, I love to be involved, I love to do my work, I love to know what's going on worldwide. But it's just you can set that aside when you're doing labor work. And so I think that that's really incredible to see. Because it doesn't really matter who's president. If you can't, like pay your bills and if you can't eat. Like, what matters is that you do the work to be able to do that with your one job. I also saw today that in Europe, something like 37% of people can identify that their job serves no purpose. Like they're not doing anything that's like, important to the continuing efforts of society. So I also know that, Bernie Sanders just introduced like a four-day work week bill into Congress. And I think that that's something that students should actively be involved in supporting. Because, like everybody could go do a four-day work week and our society would continue and people would have better lives and be happier and have more time for like, the joys of life. Without really very much changing. Hope Wahrman [00:56:28] Yeah. And I have one more, like our last question. But I also... It was interesting because during the pandemic, my high school had like a four day workweek. Like, the Friday of the week was "office hours." So like, you could go if you needed help, but like if you didn't have anything you needed help with and you were ahead on all your work like there was no class that day. And I think obviously there were some discrepancies with just working online, but in general like we were able to finish like �everything we had to for each unit. And like, learn the best that we could under those conditions. So, I definitely think a 4 day work week is a super cool thing that we could see in the future. That would work. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:57:11] And it's I mean, it's popular, right? Hope Wahrman [00:57:14] Yeah. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:57:14] Like my dad talks about it. And my dad is in his late 60s and is a professor. Like he's not working like in industry, right? Like he's he has like "a make your own hours" type of a job. And even he has like "yeah, people should have a four day workweek." Hope Wahrman [00:57:29] Yeah. And so thank you so much for meeting with us and talking to us. I could talk to you about this kind of thing for hours! Natalya Lakhtakia [00:57:38] Yes, me too. I love labor. Hope Wahrman [00:57:40] So I guess the final question is... Maybe it's a cheesy one I don't know. But I guess what is your advice to younger labor union organizers. Younger people just entering the workforce in general? Um, trying to kind of navigate their rights and their workplaces. Natalya Lakhtakia [00:58:04] Um...well. I don't think that I'm old, but I didn't know anything about this when I started working. So like when I started working, when I started working after grad school. When I started working in my school, they said "Check this box if you want to pay your union dues." And I turned to the person next to me and said, "Why wouldn't I pay my union dues?" And she was like, "There's no reason to not pay your union dues, like the pay off is much more like just pay them." And I said "Okay," and I checked that box. And that was like my total understanding of unions, was that my coworker said to check the box. And so because it is an option to not pay your dues which really sucks, to not pay into your society I guess into your community. But, so I would say like learning about this understanding that like basically all the good things that we have in terms of like the structures of society or because of the labor movement. And then also I will tell you, I get a lot of recruiting calls. And so, I do think that you have to balance like being able to live with having ideals. Like I strongly feel that. Like I have a lot of ideals, and I have a lot of beliefs for how things should be, and I also know how things are. And so I think that there needs to be a balance there where you can work for better, but also like you have to be able to eat. And you have to be able to pay your bills and you have to also like, not be just laying in bed in the dark because you don't have a job, right? Like so like there's all these things going on. But what I do now is even though I'm not looking for a job, I think I'm probably in it at Fort Edward for the long haul. I really like it, and I am happy there. After three months but, still. Even though I'm not looking for a job, every single time that a recruiter calls me, every single time I get an email or a text or a message on LinkedIn I respond and I say "Is this a union job? Because I will only take a union job." And, it's really interesting because some of the recruiters are not unionized either, they're doing their jobs. And so it's one of those things where it opens up a conversation. And I've started to kind of push for that. And what I'll tell people is "I will not take a job if it's not union." And I encourage other people to do the same, because I'm certainly not the only one getting these calls. And so I think that if you have the ability to do that, just getting out that kind of a message matters. I also think even if you get a job that's not union like my last one, and you have the ability to support union work in your area. Like being aware of what's going �on and showing up to support is worth it every single time. And so... um well with one exception, which is that I will say. Police say that they have unions, but they don't. Because unions are for workers and police are not workers. And so what they have are whatever they are called, um the...what are they called? Police Benevolence Associations. And they can have solidarity with other workers when they want to have that like public relations view. Of like, "Look, we stand with the teachers" or whatever. But I will never, ever stand with them because that kind like police come from Pinkertons like they're union breakers. They're not union supporters. But all of that aside, I think that any time you're showing up for actual workers like you're making the world better. I'm a firm believer, as even as somebody who doesn't who loves electoral work, that if you are organizing your own community you are doing something that is vastly more important than any sort of electoral work is. And there are times where I like...I will say, I do think that being on the school board can at times put me at odds with my view of the working class. And I also still think it's worthwhile to do it, because I think that having my viewpoint on the board is important, and I'm not the only one with my viewpoint. But I think that if you are doing the work to try to get a union job, getting your job and then doing the work to unionize it while knowing your rights. I think if you are connecting with other unions to support them. And then I just think in general,like even just setting union work aside, doing the work to support the working class. Which is like, all of us. And not doing the work to support the ruling class, gives you... It builds class consciousness. And understanding class, and how this division of the classes and dividing us into different groups only supports the ruling class, helps you navigate the world. And helps you have, I guess strong principles to follow. And so even if you're not in a union job, and even if you feel like you're being mistreated at work, it will help you move forward to something better. And I think that having solidarity with your fellow workers is the only way we're going to move forward as a society. Stay in New York! Because New York is like, I think the second most unionized state. Hope Wahrman [01:03:04] Wow. That's very impressive. And it's the second most? Natalya Lakhtakia [01:03:08] I think so. I think I saw Hawaii is higher? Something like that, I don't remember right now. But New York is like around 20%? This is...I actually might be remembering this wrong. We're definitely second, though. So you may want to look this up. But, if you stay in New York you have a higher chance of being in a union if you work in public education or any sort of public office. Like if you're working for the governor's office, or the state, or the federal government like you have a higher chance of being in a union.... If you're a postal worker. And then you can work for better for you and your fellow workers. But also you can unionize where you're at, my husband has looked into it for his job. Hope Wahrman [01:03:43] Yeah. Well yes, thank you so much again. Natalya Lakhtakia [01:03:46] Yeah! Zain Sundaram [01:03:46] Yeah, thank you. Hope Wahrman [01:03:46] I like really appreciate you coming in and taking the time to meet with us. Um, yeah. This was a wonderful interview. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cal Rogers, Zain Sundaram, Hope Wahrman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Natalya Lakhtakia Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:03:54 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit September 8th, 2025 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Natalya Lakhtakia Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 7th, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Natalya Lakhtakia is a speech-language pathologist in the Fort Edward School District and a proud NYSUT member. The daughter of immigrants and from a family of educators, she has been on the Saratoga Springs Board of Education since 2019 and has served as board vice-president, and on the finance, audit, policy, superintendent evaluation, DEI, and counseling committees. She is currently serving as board president. She lives in Saratoga Springs with her husband and son. She is active with Capital District DSA, NYS Break the Bonds, and does work with Skidmore’s Education Department to support future educators. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/958441f436c8d73d779bd6a60997213a.jpg 143c139f1e48aa7185ae2dc4a739a6ca https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/516730e0f7f77e0b09b15ee024d501c4.m4a 503aedc03c87c750272724526b7bdb4a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/410dc76737a349cc3b55d44b0fc7f6c6.m4a 69cb76297528d5b00b219bf1c00280ff https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8205096cf774cf5ba82bb170968ceb6c.m4a 962843fc1926ebfecb00979311834fb3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Claire Fink Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Odette Ireland Location The location of the interview Skidmore College and Saratoga Senior Center [Zoom] Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 2 Hours Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Claire Fink Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/11/2020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Odette Ireland Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 6, 2020 Description An account of the resource In this oral history , Ms. Odette Ireland recalls memories including the time during World War II her home was occupied by French soldiers, when she first met her husband, and raising a family. Language A language of the resource English (EN) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Claire Fink Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Claire Fink, Odette Ireland and Elayne Ireland Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Skidmore. College family France oral history fall 2020 preserving our past saratoga senior center World War II https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1e03d17a3d411608461e960120b47c22.jpg 4a2d67e662611a0ff5bdfc1db752fcb7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/88a137a534591b2015e726f027e56e66.mp3 00ba2c6004cb218f70b37a40d39bb7ef https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/635494370061e61f23bb5b61718bc7fb.pdf 6530dd4fd74e4e2a0884173733318118 PDF Text Text Ari  Bogom-­‐Shanon:  Ok,  if  you  wouldn't  mind  just  stating  your  name?       Parker  Diggory:  My  name  is  Parker  Diggory.       ABS:  And  your  title.       PD:  I'm  the  director  of  Religious  and  Spiritual  Life  at  Skidmore  College.       ABS:  Great,  thank  you.  So  we're  here  on  February  16th  in  Parker's  office  at   Skidmore.  So  I'd  like  to  just  start  off  by  asking  about  your  connection  to  Skidmore   College  and  where  that  started  and  what  you  do  here  now.         PD:  Sure,  so  my  connection  to  Skidmore  college  is  really  life  long,  both  of  my  parents   taught  here,  my  father  taught  here  for  I  don't  know,  three  decades  or  more,  and  so  I   knew  the  campus  from  my  earliest  memories.  I  went  to  summer  camp  here  one   summer,  I  had  one  of  my  first  jobs  here  when  the  Tang  opened,  working  there.  Yeah   so  I've  been  connected  to  the  community  in  a  number  of  ways,  coming  to   performances,  things  like  that.  I  took  classes  here  while  I  was  in  high  school  as  a   special  student,  and  then  when  I  left  for  college  and  grad  school  and  all  of  that  I   didn't  have  much  of  a  connection  to  the  campus  for  about  fifteen  years  I  would  say.   And  then,  just  three  years  ago  I  came  back  to  take  on  this  position,  at  first  part  time   and  then  full  time,  and  now  like  I  said  I'm  the  director  of  Religious  and  Spiritual  Life   and  that  means  that  I  work  with  other  offices  in  Campus  Life  and  Engagement  and  in   Student  Affairs  to  support  the  students  primarily  but  really  the  whole  campus  in   their  religious  life,  in  their  search  for  spiritual  connection,  in  their  growing   awareness  of  religion  in  general  in  the  world.               ABS:  Great,  thank  you.  That's  a  bit  about  your  connection  to  Skidmore,  now  I'm   wondering  if  you  can  talk  a  bit  about  your  connection  to  Saratoga,  focusing  on  faith-­‐ based  communities  or  if  there's  like  a  faith-­‐based  journey  that  brought  you  to  this   particular  position  here.         PD:  Sure,  so,  again  born  and  raised  in  Saratoga  Springs.  Um,  went  to  public  schools   here  and  grew  up  in  the  same  church  that  I'm  actually  attending  now,  which  is  the   Presbyterian  New  England  Congregational  Church  on  Circular  Street  in  Saratoga.   And,  it  wasn't  a  very,  hm,  all-­‐encompassing  kind  of  church  life,  where  everything   you  do  and  everything  your  family  does  is  sort  of,  is  connected  to  that  community,   but  it  was  certainly  very  big  in  my  life.  We  went  to  church  a  lot  of  Sundays,  at  least   during  the  school  year.  We  did  volunteer  work  with  them.  That's  where  I  went  to   youth  group  and  went  on  trips  and  so  that  really  was  my  forming—my  formational   community  in  a  lot  of  ways.  It's  where  a  lot  of  my  strongest  friendships  developed,   in  terms  of  you  know  when  I  was  a  teenager,  the  people  who  I  still  speak  to  now  as   an  adult  from  my  childhood  a  lot  of  them  are  people  I  knew  through  church.  And   then  also  that  meant  that  other-­‐-­‐that's  how  I  got  to  know  some  other  religious   �communities.  There  were  some  interfaith  things  that  happen  or  ecumenical  things.   That's  how  I  got  to  know  the  rabbis  at  Temple  Sinai,  because  our  congregation   would  do  things  together,  or,  you  know  there  was  usually  a  Thanksgiving  kind  of   multi-­‐faith  prayer  and  just  event,  community  event,  that  would  happen  and  there   would  be  different  religious  communities  represented  there.  Yeah  so  that,  and  they,   the  church  that  I  was  raised  in,  like  I  said  it's  Presbyterian  and  Congregational  which   are  two  denominations  and  I  personally  am  part  of  the  Presbyterian  denomination   and  that  eventually  became  a  path  for  me  in  terms  of  my  professional  development   in  that  I  went  to  seminary  and  I  am  in  a  sort  of  long,  scenic  route  towards  ordination   in  that  church.               ABS:  You  talked  a  little  about  coming  back  to  the  same  church  community  when  you   came  back  I  was  wondering  if  you  could  expand  on  what  it  was  like  to  come  back  to   this  community  fifteen  years  later.         PD:  Wow,  yeah,  in  many  ways  it  was  just  wonderful  to  be  able  to  come  back  to  my   home  church  community  that  it's,  even  while  I  was  gone  I  would  come  back  for   holidays,  or  if  I  just  happened  to  be  in  town  over  a  weekend  I  would  go  to  church.   The  congregation  helped  support  part  of  my  education,  you  know,  this  was  who  I   kept  in  touch  with  so,  in  some  ways  I  had  never  completely  left.  But,  I  would  say,  I   guess  if  there  was  anything  challenging  about  it,  it  was  that  I  had  grown  in  my  faith   journey  in  ways  that  I  was  a  little  worried  wouldn't  fit  in  to  my  home  church.  That,   our  church  is  known  for  a  really  broad  diversity  of  theological  beliefs  and,  I  just,  I   didn't  have  the  beliefs  as  I  when  I  was  younger  which  it  to  be  expected  but  I  just   wanted  to  make  sure  that  I  was  still  gonna  fit  in  and  they,  they're  so  accepting  of  so   many  beliefs  that  I  knew  intellectually  that  that  would  be  fine,  but  there's  still  that   nervousness  of,  if  I  don't  feel  like  this  is  my  home  church  now,  like  what  would  I   even  do,  because  it's  where  my  parents  go.  I'm  connected  to  so  many  families  there,   if  I  all  of  a  sudden  started  going  to  say  the  Methodist  Church  or  the  Episcopalian   Church  like  people  would  have  questions.  And,  I  never  seriously  considered  not   going,  but  there  were  times  where  I  thought,  if  I  had  moved  to  this  town  as  an  adult   and  had  never  gone  to  any  of  the  churches  in  town,  is  this  the  congregation  I  would   end  up.  And  I  honestly  don't  know.  I  think  it  would  be,  just  because  it's  unique  in  a   lot  of  ways  in  this  town  and  has  a  lot  things  I  look  for,  but  it  was  an  interesting   question  to  think  about.  And  in  other  ways  it's  just  been  good  to  get  back  and  to   church  life  and,  you  know,  I  ended  up  being  nominated  for  the  board  of  the  church   and  church  leadership  so  it's  a  very  different  role  than  I  had  before,  where  I'd  still   get  treated  a  little  bit  as  one  of  the  kids  of  the  church  but  I'm,  I'm  treated  as  an  adult   and  as  a  leader  and  with  expectations  and  responsibilities  which  are  different,   which  I  value.               �ABS:  Thanks  for  sharing.  So  I  think  this  is  maybe  a  little  of  a  transition  into  Skidmore   and  what  that  role  is  like  but  I'm  wondering,  for  you  coming  to  Saratoga  was  really   coming  home  to  you  community  and  you  talked  about  how  we  practice  [sic]  is  so   much  bound  up  with  how  we  grew  up  and  what  communities  we  grew  up  in,  and  for   a  lot  of  people  coming  to  Skidmore  they're  leaving  their  home  communities.  So  I'm   wondering  if  you  thought  at  all  about  that  kind  of  relationship  of  working  with  a   bunch  of  students  here  who  are  leaving  their  home  communities  and  for  you  it's   coming  back  to  your  community  and  if  that  influences  your  role  here.       PD:  Mhm.  Sure,  I  think  it  does.  I  think  one  would  be  I  try  and  use  the  fact  that  I  do   know  this  community  really  well,  this  Saratoga  community  as  a  way  to  connect   students  not  just  by  which  denomination  they're  looking  for  or  you  know,  the  name   of  the  tradition  they're  looking  for,  but  sort  of  getting  to  know  the  personality  of  the   student  and  the  personality  of  the  congregation,  and  being  able  to  say,  you  know,  I   think  you're  really  gonna  like  this  leader,  or,  you  know,  there  are  some  folks  who  go   to  this  particular  service  that  are  looking  at  the  same  questions  that  you're  asking.   And  so,  part  of  it  is  that,  and  I  don't  think  it's  necessary  to  do  my  role  to  have  that   sort  of  historical  knowledge,  but  I've  certainly  tried  to  use  it  that  way.  And  then  the   other  bit  is  that  I  have  to  rely  on  my  own  college  experience  where  I  wasn't  in   Saratoga  Springs,  to  relate  a  little  bit  more  to  what  the  students  are  coming  in  with.   So,  I  went  to  college  in  Middlebury,  Vermont,  and,  you  know,  they  don't  have  a   Presbyterian  church  there  and  so  I  found  the  next  best  thing  for  me  which  was   actually  a  Congregational  Church,  and  I  looked  up  the  worship  times  and  I  went.  I   was  one  of  the  only  students  who  did,  sometimes  my  sister  came,  she  was  at  the   same  school,  and  that  was  it.  And  I  realized  only,  you  know,  months  later  who  else  at   the  school  might  have  some  of  my  similar  religious  beliefs.  That  I  didn't,  I  didn't  find   my  kind  of  on  campus  religious  community  in  some  ways  ever,  but  even  a  small  part   of  it  I  didn't  find  for  a  while.  And  so  I  try  and  hold  on  to  that  experience  and  fill  in   some  of  the  blanks  I  wish  had  been  filled  in  for  me,  as  somebody  who  didn't  really   know  the  landscape.  What  are  some  other  ways  that  influences  things  [pause].  I   think  part  of  it  is  trying  to  ease  the  transition  for  students  not  just  in  the  immediate   religious  sense.  Right,  I  can  reserve  prayer  rooms,  I  can  hold  services,  I  can  bring  in   leaders  and  what-­‐not,  but  there  are  home-­‐y  trappings  of  a  lot  of  people's  religious   lives  that  I'm  not  gonna  be  able  to  completely  replicate  but  I  can  try  and  offer  or   connect  to  or  get  a  taxi  to  or  something.  So  that's  part  of  it  to  is  just  thinking  about   what-­‐-­‐and  asking  the  students-­‐-­‐what  feels  like  home  to  you.  Because  sometimes   when  they're  asking  me  for  support  or  for  access  to  a  community,  you  know  they're   using  category  names  and  they're  using  tradition  names.  But  I  remember,  I  was   studying  abroad,  I  did  a  gap  semester  after  high  school  and  I  was  in  Jamaica,  and  I   went  church  with  my  host  family,  but  sometimes  I  would  go  to  a  church  that  was  a   little  more  like  the  one  I  grew  up  in.  And  I  walked  in  and  they  had  the  same  exact   brass  cross  on  the  altar,  and  I  almost  cried.  And,  it's  that  kind  of  thing  that  I  know   that  will  help  students,  and  it  might  just  take  a  while  to  figure  out  what  that  is.  To   find  that  familiarity.  So  I'm  not  sure  if  that  answers  the-­‐-­‐your  questions.             �   [00:11:25.000]       ABS:  Yeah,  definitely,  wow.  Yeah  it  is  almost  that  search  for  home  that  students   come  in  looking  for.         PD:  Mhm.       ABS:  Ok,  so  you've  been  here  three  years?       PD:  Something  like  that.       ABS:  Something  like  that?  Which  is  pretty  recent.  Can  you  talk  a  little  bit  about  your   first  impressions  of  the  religious  community  at  Skidmore?       PD:  Hm.  Well  I  admit  that  I  had  sort  of  made  some  assumptions  based  on  my   experience  at  a  somewhat  similar  college  and  my  knowledge  of  Skidmore.  So,  I   probably  didn't  come  in  with  a  completely  open  mind  in  terms  of,  just,  what's  my   first  impression,  you  know  completely  blank  slate  kind  of  thing.  It  was  more  that  I   kind  of  assumed  that  it  would  be,  not  the  most  overtly  religious  campus,  that  it   would  be,  um,  you  know  that  religions  that  are  generally  minorities  in  society  would   probably  be  a  little  more  organized  just  by  necessity,  that  we  would  have  a  lot  of   students  who  were  maybe  interested  when  they  went  home  in  still  attending  a   service  or  connecting  with  a  tradition.  But  at  least  while  they  were  at  college  it   didn't  seem  like  a  priority.  And  so  that  was  true,  those  assumptions  were  proved   pretty  true.  I  think  my  impression  was  that  it  was  very  much,  [pause],  first  word   that  comes  to  mind  is  underground,  but  that  has  some  sort  of  like  purposeful  hiding   that  is  only  occasionally  true.  But  that  it  was  below  the  surface,  how  'bout  that,  that   the  religious  life  at  Skidmore  was  and  still  is  to  a  great  extent  something  that   happens  in  a  person  to  person  sort  of  way,  in  a  word  of  mouth  sort  of  way.  It's  not   the  first  thing  you  find  out  about  somebody,  it's  not  the  majority  of  the  events  that   are  advertised.  But  when  you  scratch  the  surface  it's  there.  And  so  part  of  my  job  is   figuring  out  how  much  of  that  under-­‐the-­‐surface-­‐ness  is  actually  fine  and  desirable   and  what  students  and  others  kind  of  want  and  it's  working  really  well  and  how   much  of  it  is  happening  simply  because  there  isn't  another  way.  Um,  what  else  was  I   struck  by.  That's  the  first  thing  that  comes  to  mind.               [00:14:13.783]       ABS:  This  is  a  bit  more  of  just  a  practical  question,  but  could  you  just  talk  a  little  bit   about  the  different  communities  that  are  here,  whether  it's  the  more  above-­‐the-­‐ surface  communities  or  any  below-­‐surface  communities  also?       �PD:  Sure,  so  in  terms  of  named  groups  we  have:  Hillel,  which  is  a  Jewish  student   organization,  broad  spectrum  in  terms  of  tradition.  Because  we  don't  have,  not  just   because,  but  we  don't  have  kosher  offerings  at  Skidmore  and  that  and  other  reasons   mean  that  we  don't  have  a  full  range  of  Jewish  traditions  represented  but  what  does   exist,  the  only  organized  group  at  the  moment  is  Hillel  for  them.  There's  Christian   Fellowship,  Skidmore  Christian  Fellowship,  which  is  a  chapter  of  InterVarsity   Christian  Fellowship,  which  is  a  national  and  sometimes  international  thing,  so  is   Hillel.  And  then  we  have  a  Newman  club,  which  is  for  Catholic  students.  That  has   been  from  semester  to  semester  more  and  less  active.  It's  quite  small,  one  of  the   primary  functions  is  finding  carpools  to  local  Masses,  so  it's  not  one  of  the  more   active  in  terms  of  programming  at  the  moment.  Then  when  I  first  arrived,  and  still,   we  have  Hayat,  which  is  a  cultural  affinity  group,  not  a  religious  affinity  group.  But  it   covers  the  Middle  East  and  South  East  Asia  and  so  they  will  do  cultural  events  that   are  also  religiously  connected  and  things  like  Holi  or  a  Lunar  New  Year's  celebration   sometimes,  although  there  are  also  other  groups  who  do  those.  Eid  dinners  for  the   Muslim  community.  So  that  also  depends  on  who's  in  charge  and  who's  interested  in   supporting  an  event,  but  they  function  in  a  lot  of  ways  independently  from  my  office   and  from  the  Office  of  Student  Diversity  Programming,  but  both  of  our  offices  do   work  with  them.  There's  a  Quaker  group  that  is  not  an  official  club  but  they  get   together  and  through  my  office  they  advertise,  they  meet  every  other  week  and  they   advertise  that  through  my  office  and  I  help  make  them  connections  with  members  of   the  local  Quaker  community.  There  are  bible  studies  that  are  connected  with   Christian  Fellowship  but  I  think  some  of  them  are  attended  by  folks  who  maybe   aren't  involved  in  the  club  more  broadly  but  are  interested  in  going  to  a  bible  study   that  maybe  their  friend  is  leading.  There  is  a  practicing  Zen  gathering  that  doesn't   necessarily  require  you  to  be  a  Zen  practitioner  and  to  identify  as  a  Zen  Buddhist  to   attend,  but  there  are  certainly  folks  who  attend  who  have  been,  who  do  identify  that   way,  both  from  the  community  and  the  faculty  and  every  once  in  a  while  some  of  our   students  as  well.  And  then  there  are  some  students  who  will  get  together  around  a   certain  holiday  or  something  like  that.  There  were  some  Hindu  students  last   semester  who  got  together  to  go  to  a  Temple  for  a  particular  holiday.  And  it  was  sort   of  under  the  auspices  of  my  office,  sort  of  under  the  auspices  of  Hayat.  It  will  sort  of   be  an  ad  hoc  group  for  a  specific  purpose  and  then  they  sort  of  will  dissolve  again.  I   feel  like  I'm  probably  forgetting  something  huge  right  now.  There  are  some  other   groups  that  include  spirituality  and  spiritual  connection  as  part  of  what  they  do  and   who  they  are,  but  they're  less,  I  wouldn't  call  them  affinity  groups  as  much  because   they're  going  to  have  a  much  broader  spectrum  of  beliefs  within  them  and  so,   there's  an  inspirational  choir  called  Rejoice,  and  for  many  of  the  folks  there  there's  a   spiritual  component  to  what  they're  doing  and  what  they're  singing  but  they  sing   songs  from  many  different  traditions.  There's  a  mindful  movement  club  of  students   that  do  everything  from  learning  modern  dance  movement  techniques  to  yoga  to,   um,  I  think  the  circus  club  has  done  some  things  with  them.  So,  again  some  of  the   folks  there  are  regular  yoga  practitioners  and  for  them  that  is  part  of  a  religious  and   or  spiritual  practice  but  it's  not  necessarily.  And  then  there  are  the  folks  who  come   to  the  Skidmore  mindfulness.  So  we  have  weekly  meditations  and  yoga  practices   and  reiki  and  things  like  that  that  students  aren't  required  to  or  the  rest  of  the   �community  is  not  required  to  claim  any  particular  tradition  for  nor  are  they  likely  to   but  they  can,  and  many  of  them  do  express  that  this  is  a  spiritual  thing  for  them.               [00:19:22.000]       ABS:  It's  a  pretty  full  list.       PD:  Yeah  [laughs].  Oh!  I  knew  I  was  gonna  forget  somebody.  When  I  started  talking   about  Hayat  I  said,  you  know  when  I  got  here  Hayat  was  doing  all  of  this  and  they   still  are,  but  in  the  past  year  there's  also  been  a  bigger  push  from  some  of  the   Muslim  students  to  actually  have  a  club  that  is  expressly  for  Muslim  students.  And   there's  been  interest  in  that  since  before  I  got  here,  but  our  students  are  so  involved   in  so  much  that  it  takes  students  who  aren't  just  interested  in  it  but  are  interested  in   taking  leadership  in  it.  And  so  there  are  some  students  who  have  started  the  process   of  making  an  official  club,  which  is  fantastic.  But  if  that  doesn't  happen  or  until  that   happens,  our  office  just  continues  to  work  with  some  of  the  Muslim  staff  and  faculty   to  support  the  Muslim  students  on  campus.               [00:20:12.000]       ABS:  Can  you  also  just  talk  a  little  bit  about  how  staff  and  faculty  are  present  in  your   office,  if  they  are,  if  they  have  a  relationship  to  these  student  groups?       PD:  Sure,  well  I  should  mention  my  staff  as  well  so,  there  are  three  professional  staff   and  then  a  kind  of  rotating  number  of  student  staff.  And  that  includes  a  coordinator   for  Jewish  Student  Life,  Martina  Zobel,  and  a  coordinator  for  the  Skidmore   Mindfulness  program  Jennifer  Schmid-­‐Fareed.  And  the  two  of  them  work  both  with   clubs  and  with  students  who's  needs  aren't  being  met  by  the  clubs,  or  who  just  want   to  do  things  that  expand  the  presence  of  religion  or  spirituality  or  interfaith  on   campus.  And  so,  the  three  of  us  are  the  staff  and  we  collaborate  with  a  lot  of  other   staff  in  terms  of  events.    I  mentioned  the  Office  of  Student  Diversity  Programming.   The  director  of  that  office  and  myself  we  oversee  the  Intercultural  Center  together.   So  we  try  and  make  sure  that  whenever  there  are  programs  that  are  more   automatically  assigned  to  one  of  our  offices  that  we're  thinking  more  broadly  about   how  the  work  of  our  offices  might  overlap  for  those  programs.  We  work  with  the   student  leadership  offices  and  their  staff  because  they  support  the  clubs  and  events   on  campus  and  that's  an  obvious  connection.  So  there  are  some  that  are  quite   obvious.  The  counseling  center  does  stuff  with  the  Mindfulness  program,  the   religious  studies  department  will  have  [sic]  us  promote  some  of  our  events  and  vice   versa,  so  there  are  some  obvious  ones.  And  then  beyond  that,  there  are  stu—er,   sorry,  there  are  staff  and  faculty  that  will  attend  some  of  our  offerings.  Most  of  the   events  that  we  do  are  open  to  staff  and  faculty,  so  they'll  come  to  Shabbat  dinner  or   �they'll  come  to  one  of  the  meditations.  This  week  we  did  an  Ash  Wednesday  service   and  I'd  say  there  were  maybe  thirty-­‐six  people  there  and  two-­‐thirds  of  them  were   students  and  the  other  third  was  probably  staff  and  faculty.  So  they,  there's  a  few.   It's  not  a  majority  by  any  sense,  it's  not  a  large  group,  but  there's  a  handful  that  do   get  involved  that  way  just  by  attending  and  participating.  And  then  there  are  some   who  get  involved  in  really  supporting  the  work  of  the  communities  and  so,  there  are   staff  and  faculty  who  don't  just  come  to  the  events  but  will  help  with  hiring  new   staff,  finding  new  advisors,  being  advisors  themselves.  And  sometimes  I  know  about   that  and  sometimes  I  learn  about  it  later.  You  know,  sometimes  there  are  staff  or   faculty  who  have  been  helping  students  get  to  church  for  years  and  I  don't  find  out   about  it  until  a  casual  conversation.  So,  yeah  some  of  it's  formalized  and  some  of  it's   very  much  about  some  of  our  staff  and  faculty  just  making  connections  and  finding   out  a  way  that  they  can  help  students  get  connected.  And  every  once  in  a  while   there's  a  collaboration  that's  a  little  less  expected  so,  I'm  trying  to  think  of  one  but,   you  know  there  have  been  partnerships  with  the  Tang  Teaching  Museum,  and  there   have  been  partnerships  with  different  academic  departments,  we've  worked  with   somebody,  actually  from  Documentary  Studies  Adam  Tinkle,  and  he  does  work  with   sound  and  we  do  work  with  sound  healing  and  things  and  so  there  are  some  neat   overlaps  of  some  of  that  work.  And  I  like  to  keep  a  sort  of  somewhat  secret  entirely   unofficial  list  of  staff  and  faculty  who  have  expressed  to  me  that  they're  willing  to  be   called  upon  for  certain  things.  So  if  there's  a  student  who's  coming  to  me  with   concerns,  especially  if  they're  from  a  tradition  that's  not  well  represented  in  the   Saratoga  area,  which  is  a  lot  of  them,  I  try  and  keep  a  list  of  which  staff  and  faculty  I   might  be  able  to  point  them  towards.               [00:24:27.000]       ABS:  Very  cool.  So,  you  just  said  that  there  are  a  lot  of  students  whose  faiths  might   not  be  represented  in  this  area,  but  I'm  wondering  if  you  can  talk  a  little  bit  about   what  connections  have  been  made  to  groups  in  this  area  and  Skidmore,  and  if  you've   seen  a  change  in  that?  Either  from  when  you  were  here  growing  up  or  from  being   here  for  three  years  and  working  in  this  position,  and  or  if  you  have  a  vision  for  that   going  forward,  in  terms  of  where  you  want  those  relationships  to  be  or  go.       PD:  Sure,  um,  hm.  How  to  start.  There  are  some  formal  connections,  so  the  local   reform  synagogue  Temple  Sinai,  their,  one  of  their  co-­‐rabbi's  Linda  Motzkin  does   have  an  official  role  with  us  as  a  High  Holy  Days  chaplain.  Before  that  she  worked   even  more  frequently,  or  as  a  more  permanent,  not  that's  not  right,  a  more-­‐-­‐she  had   a  larger  role  at  Skidmore  previously,  in  terms  of  Jewish  student  life.  And  stepped   back  a  little  from  that  but  we're  very  thankful  she  stayed  on  to  work  with  us  during   high  holy  days.  And  part  of  that  is  that  that  congregation  is  able  to  use  Skidmore   Campus  spaces  for  High  Holy  Day  services  where  the  numbers  would  be  too  much   for  their  space.  And  it  gives  our  students  the  gift  of  being  able  to  attend  services   both  on  their  campus  and  with  a  multi-­‐generational  faith  community.  Which  I  think   �is  really  wonderful.  So  that's  been  going  on  for  years  and  years  and  years.  The  other   connections  are  primarily  unofficial.  Although,  also  within  the  Jewish  community   the  Saratoga  Chabad  works  with  my  office  to  come  onto  campus  and  do  table   outreach  basically,  and  also  working  with  the  Jewish  student  community  a  little  bit.   And  then  there  are  churches  that  are  more  likely  to  attract  some  of  our  students.  So   for  instance  a  lot  of  the  students  involved  in  Christian  Fellowship,  or  at  least  a   decent  sized  group  of  them  will  carpool  all  to  the  same  church  on  Sunday  mornings.   And  that's  not  an  official  partnership  in  any  way  it's  just  a  little  bit  of  word  of  mouth   and  a  little  bit  of  common  traditions  and  so  that  happens.  With  the  Catholic  churches   there  are  two  parishes  in  town  and  I've  invited  priests  and  deacons  from  both  of   them  to  come  and  do  services  on  campus  and  so  that'll  be  a  wonderful  way  of   making  that  connection  happen.  But,  students  can  also  just  go  wherever  they'd  like.   And  so,  similarly  to  some  of  the  staff  connections  I  don't  know  sometimes  when   students  are  attending  services  in  town.  I  like  to  try  and  find  out  so  that  if  other   students  are  looking  for  someone  to  go  with  I  can  make  some  introductions.  And  I   think  that's  generally  the  same  as  when  I  was  growing  up,  though  I  certainly  wasn't   aware  of  religious  life  at  colleges.  It  wasn't  something  that  I  was  thinking  of  much   except  that  I  knew  the  chaplain  here  when  I  was  younger.  And  in  terms  of  what  I   want  to  see,  hyper-­‐locally  like  right  in  Saratoga  Springs,  I  do  want  to  get  to  know   more  and  more  of  the  communities  and  the  leaders.  A  lot  of  them  will  contact  me   about  events  and  I'll  try  and  promote  those,  but  there's  also  a,  I  have  the  sense  of,   I'm  also  feeling  a  protection  of  the  campus?  That  there  are,  unfortunately,  always   going  to  be  religious  groups  that  aren't-­‐-­‐that  don't  necessarily  have  our  students   best  interest  in  mind  or  that  bring  a  style  of  communication  that  is  aggressive  in  a   way  that  I  don't  think  a  majority  of  our  students  would  like.  And  so  because  of  that,   I've  been  hesitant  to  just  put  out  a  blanket  invitation  to  religious  groups  to  come  to   campus.  I  usually  wait  for  students  to  express  an  interest  in  a  particular  community   and  then  I  will  reach  out.  So  for  instance  with  the  local  Quaker  community.  You   know  they  come  onto  campus  but  because  there's  a  student  interest.  So  I  would  like   there  to  be  connections.  I  think  especially  there's  a  lot  of  potential  within  the   volunteer  work  and  social  justice  side  of  things.  A  lot  of  our  local  religious   communities  are  on  the  front  lines  of  working  with  immigrants  and  refugees  in  the   area.  They're  the  ones  that  make  sure  that  the  soup  kitchen  is  staffed  and  that  there   are,  a  lot  of  them  are  volunteers  at  the  homeless  shelters  and  so  I  think  there  are   ways  there  to  strengthen  already  existing  partnerships.  We  do  have  students   already  who  volunteer  with  all  of  those  programs.  I  think  we  could  do  it  more  and   we  could  do  it  more  specifically  with  our  religious  students.  And  then  beyond  that,   beyond  Saratoga  Springs  we've  had  a  good  experience  getting  students  to  one  of  the   mosques  for  some  of  the  Eids.  Or,  we  partnered  with  one  of  the  mosques  on  a   service  project.  And  that's  been  wonderful  because  there  are  plenty  of  colleges  and   universities  in  the  capital  district.  And  Skidmore's  small  little  group  of  students  is   not  going  to  be  their  biggest  population  of  young  adult  outreach,  but  it's  been  nice  to   still  make  those  connections  and  I  want  to  strengthen  that  as  well.  Yeah  it's   interesting  because  a  lot  of  religious  communities,  and  I'm  speaking  primarily  out  of   the  Christian  context  but  I  know  that  it's  not  that  different  in  other  contexts.  A  lot  of   religious  communities  are  feeling  a  need  to  hold  onto  young  adults  with  all  of  their   �might,  and  I've  been  on  the  leadership  of  communities  that  do  this  where  we,  we  see   young  adults  and  we  see  numbers.  We  see  people  to  keep  our  traditions  going.  And   it's  very  self-­‐-­‐it's  very  much  about  us  as  a  religious  community  wanting  to  not  die   out,  and  I  want  to  help  my  own  church  but  also  all  of  the  religious  communities  in   town  approach  Skidmore  students  with  a  much  more  giving,  a  much  more  outward   looking  purpose.  That  this  is  not  about  whether  or  not  we  get  to  say,  "hey  we've  got   seven  college  students  on  our  lists,  we're  not  gonna  die  out,"  or  "we're  really  cool   with  the  young  people,"  but  more  that  isn't  it  great  that  these  one  student  or  these   two  students  are  being  fed  by  this  ministry.  So  that's  something  I'd  like  to  see   happen.               [00:31:33.793]       ABS:  Thank  you  for  sharing.  That's  all  the  questions  I  have  but  if  there's  anything   you  want  to  add  that  you  felt  like  didn't  get  in  there?       PD:  I  think  one  of  the  things  I'd  like  to  see  both  on  campus  and  in  Saratoga,  and  I   think  there  are  ways  to  maybe  make  it  happen  as  a  campus  community  partnership,   is  more  engagement  across  ideological  lines  of  religious  communities.  For  example   you  show  up  to  certain  meetings  in  town  of  religious  leaders  working  on  a  particular   issue  and  you  can  sort  of  predict  who's  going  to  be  there.  And  it's  not  that  they're  all   the  same  religion  it's  that  you're  pretty  sure  they're  all  the  same  politics,  or  they're   all  the  same,  you  know  social  views  on  different  issues.  And  so  one  of  the  things   that's  great  right  now  that's  happening  is  two  of  the  churches-­‐-­‐so  the  church  where   the  freeze  shelter  is  hosted  where  Code  Blue  is  hosted,  Soul  Saving  Station,  is  very   different  from  the  church  that  I  attend,  but  the  church  that  I  attend  is  also  helping   out  Code  Blue  with  some  office  space  and  some  overflow  space  and  housing  people   when  Soul  Saving  Station  doesn't  have  enough  room.  And  those  two  churches  could   not  be  more  different  ideologically  or  theologically  and  still  both  be  called  Christian.   But  they  are  [laughs],  and  they're  both  doing  this.  And  I  think  that  kind  of   partnership,  and  that  kind  of  getting  to  know  each  other  could  be  happening  more  at   Skidmore  as  well  and  in  the  town  as  well,  so  that  we're  expanding  what  it  means  to   be  religious  for  people  who  have  doubts  about  their  opinions  on  what  it  is  to  be   religious.  Maybe  not  doubts  about  their  opinions,  doubts  about  people  who  are   religious,  or  doubts  about  people  who  are  religious  in  a  way  that  is  different  from   them.  So  not  necessarily  interfaith  cooperation  but  even  within  a  tradition  across   ideological  bounds.               [00:33:45.570]       ABS:  Well,  I  wish  you  luck  in  this  office       �PD:  Thank  you       ABS:  And  all  of  your  goals       PD:  Thank  you       ABS:  Thank  you  so  much  for  being  part  of  this  interview,  and  I'm  not  sure  when  it   will  go  up  but  I  will  email  you  the  link  when  it  does.           � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ari Bogom-Shanon Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Parker Diggory Location The location of the interview Parker's office in Case Center. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Ari Bogom-Shanon Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/03/2018 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Ari Bogom-Shanon: Ok, if you wouldn't mind just stating your name? Parker Diggory: My name is Parker Diggory. ABS: And your title. PD: I'm the director of Religious and Spiritual Life at Skidmore College. ABS: Great, thank you. So we're here on February 16th in Parker's office at Skidmore. So I'd like to just start off by asking about your connection to Skidmore College and where that started and what you do here now. PD: Sure, so my connection to Skidmore college is really life long, both of my parents taught here, my father taught here for I don't know, three decades or more, and so I knew the campus from my earliest memories. I went to summer camp here one summer, I had one of my first jobs here when the Tang opened, working there. Yeah so I've been connected to the community in a number of ways, coming to performances, things like that. I took classes here while I was in high school as a special student, and then when I left for college and grad school and all of that I didn't have much of a connection to the campus for about fifteen years I would say. And then, just three years ago I came back to take on this position, at first part time and then full time, and now like I said I'm the director of Religious and Spiritual Life and that means that I work with other offices in Campus Life and Engagement and in Student Affairs to support the students primarily but really the whole campus in their religious life, in their search for spiritual connection, in their growing awareness of religion in general in the world. ABS: Great, thank you. That's a bit about your connection to Skidmore, now I'm wondering if you can talk a bit about your connection to Saratoga, focusing on faith-based communities or if there's like a faith-based journey that brought you to this particular position here. PD: Sure, so, again born and raised in Saratoga Springs. Um, went to public schools here and grew up in the same church that I'm actually attending now, which is the Presbyterian New England Congregational Church on Circular Street in Saratoga. And, it wasn't a very, hm, all-encompassing kind of church life, where everything you do and everything your family does is sort of, is connected to that community, but it was certainly very big in my life. We went to church a lot of Sundays, at least during the school year. We did volunteer work with them. That's where I went to youth group and went on trips and so that really was my forming—my formational community in a lot of ways. It's where a lot of my strongest friendships developed, in terms of you know when I was a teenager, the people who I still speak to now as an adult from my childhood a lot of them are people I knew through church. And then also that meant that other--that's how I got to know some other religious communities. There were some interfaith things that happen or ecumenical things. That's how I got to know the rabbis at Temple Sinai, because our congregation would do things together, or, you know there was usually a Thanksgiving kind of multi-faith prayer and just event, community event, that would happen and there would be different religious communities represented there. Yeah so that, and they, the church that I was raised in, like I said it's Presbyterian and Congregational which are two denominations and I personally am part of the Presbyterian denomination and that eventually became a path for me in terms of my professional development in that I went to seminary and I am in a sort of long, scenic route towards ordination in that church. ABS: You talked a little about coming back to the same church community when you came back I was wondering if you could expand on what it was like to come back to this community fifteen years later. PD: Wow, yeah, in many ways it was just wonderful to be able to come back to my home church community that it's, even while I was gone I would come back for holidays, or if I just happened to be in town over a weekend I would go to church. The congregation helped support part of my education, you know, this was who I kept in touch with so, in some ways I had never completely left. But, I would say, I guess if there was anything challenging about it, it was that I had grown in my faith journey in ways that I was a little worried wouldn't fit in to my home church. That, our church is known for a really broad diversity of theological beliefs and, I just, I didn't have the beliefs as I when I was younger which it to be expected but I just wanted to make sure that I was still gonna fit in and they, they're so accepting of so many beliefs that I knew intellectually that that would be fine, but there's still that nervousness of, if I don't feel like this is my home church now, like what would I even do, because it's where my parents go. I'm connected to so many families there, if I all of a sudden started going to say the Methodist Church or the Episcopalian Church like people would have questions. And, I never seriously considered not going, but there were times where I thought, if I had moved to this town as an adult and had never gone to any of the churches in town, is this the congregation I would end up. And I honestly don't know. I think it would be, just because it's unique in a lot of ways in this town and has a lot things I look for, but it was an interesting question to think about. And in other ways it's just been good to get back and to church life and, you know, I ended up being nominated for the board of the church and church leadership so it's a very different role than I had before, where I'd still get treated a little bit as one of the kids of the church but I'm, I'm treated as an adult and as a leader and with expectations and responsibilities which are different, which I value. ABS: Thanks for sharing. So I think this is maybe a little of a transition into Skidmore and what that role is like but I'm wondering, for you coming to Saratoga was really coming home to you community and you talked about how we practice [sic] is so much bound up with how we grew up and what communities we grew up in, and for a lot of people coming to Skidmore they're leaving their home communities. So I'm wondering if you thought at all about that kind of relationship of working with a bunch of students here who are leaving their home communities and for you it's coming back to your community and if that influences your role here. PD: Mhm. Sure, I think it does. I think one would be I try and use the fact that I do know this community really well, this Saratoga community as a way to connect students not just by which denomination they're looking for or you know, the name of the tradition they're looking for, but sort of getting to know the personality of the student and the personality of the congregation, and being able to say, you know, I think you're really gonna like this leader, or, you know, there are some folks who go to this particular service that are looking at the same questions that you're asking. And so, part of it is that, and I don't think it's necessary to do my role to have that sort of historical knowledge, but I've certainly tried to use it that way. And then the other bit is that I have to rely on my own college experience where I wasn't in Saratoga Springs, to relate a little bit more to what the students are coming in with. So, I went to college in Middlebury, Vermont, and, you know, they don't have a Presbyterian church there and so I found the next best thing for me which was actually a Congregational Church, and I looked up the worship times and I went. I was one of the only students who did, sometimes my sister came, she was at the same school, and that was it. And I realized only, you know, months later who else at the school might have some of my similar religious beliefs. That I didn't, I didn't find my kind of on campus religious community in some ways ever, but even a small part of it I didn't find for a while. And so I try and hold on to that experience and fill in some of the blanks I wish had been filled in for me, as somebody who didn't really know the landscape. What are some other ways that influences things [pause]. I think part of it is trying to ease the transition for students not just in the immediate religious sense. Right, I can reserve prayer rooms, I can hold services, I can bring in leaders and what-not, but there are home-y trappings of a lot of people's religious lives that I'm not gonna be able to completely replicate but I can try and offer or connect to or get a taxi to or something. So that's part of it to is just thinking about what--and asking the students--what feels like home to you. Because sometimes when they're asking me for support or for access to a community, you know they're using category names and they're using tradition names. But I remember, I was studying abroad, I did a gap semester after high school and I was in Jamaica, and I went church with my host family, but sometimes I would go to a church that was a little more like the one I grew up in. And I walked in and they had the same exact brass cross on the altar, and I almost cried. And, it's that kind of thing that I know that will help students, and it might just take a while to figure out what that is. To find that familiarity. So I'm not sure if that answers the--your questions. [00:11:25.000] ABS: Yeah, definitely, wow. Yeah it is almost that search for home that students come in looking for. PD: Mhm. ABS: Ok, so you've been here three years? PD: Something like that. ABS: Something like that? Which is pretty recent. Can you talk a little bit about your first impressions of the religious community at Skidmore? PD: Hm. Well I admit that I had sort of made some assumptions based on my experience at a somewhat similar college and my knowledge of Skidmore. So, I probably didn't come in with a completely open mind in terms of, just, what's my first impression, you know completely blank slate kind of thing. It was more that I kind of assumed that it would be, not the most overtly religious campus, that it would be, um, you know that religions that are generally minorities in society would probably be a little more organized just by necessity, that we would have a lot of students who were maybe interested when they went home in still attending a service or connecting with a tradition. But at least while they were at college it didn't seem like a priority. And so that was true, those assumptions were proved pretty true. I think my impression was that it was very much, [pause], first word that comes to mind is underground, but that has some sort of like purposeful hiding that is only occasionally true. But that it was below the surface, how 'bout that, that the religious life at Skidmore was and still is to a great extent something that happens in a person to person sort of way, in a word of mouth sort of way. It's not the first thing you find out about somebody, it's not the majority of the events that are advertised. But when you scratch the surface it's there. And so part of my job is figuring out how much of that under-the-surface-ness is actually fine and desirable and what students and others kind of want and it's working really well and how much of it is happening simply because there isn't another way. Um, what else was I struck by. That's the first thing that comes to mind. [00:14:13.783] ABS: This is a bit more of just a practical question, but could you just talk a little bit about the different communities that are here, whether it's the more above-the-surface communities or any below-surface communities also? PD: Sure, so in terms of named groups we have: Hillel, which is a Jewish student organization, broad spectrum in terms of tradition. Because we don't have, not just because, but we don't have kosher offerings at Skidmore and that and other reasons mean that we don't have a full range of Jewish traditions represented but what does exist, the only organized group at the moment is Hillel for them. There's Christian Fellowship, Skidmore Christian Fellowship, which is a chapter of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, which is a national and sometimes international thing, so is Hillel. And then we have a Newman club, which is for Catholic students. That has been from semester to semester more and less active. It's quite small, one of the primary functions is finding carpools to local Masses, so it's not one of the more active in terms of programming at the moment. Then when I first arrived, and still, we have Hayat, which is a cultural affinity group, not a religious affinity group. But it covers the Middle East and South East Asia and so they will do cultural events that are also religiously connected and things like Holi or a Lunar New Year's celebration sometimes, although there are also other groups who do those. Eid dinners for the Muslim community. So that also depends on who's in charge and who's interested in supporting an event, but they function in a lot of ways independently from my office and from the Office of Student Diversity Programming, but both of our offices do work with them. There's a Quaker group that is not an official club but they get together and through my office they advertise, they meet every other week and they advertise that through my office and I help make them connections with members of the local Quaker community. There are bible studies that are connected with Christian Fellowship but I think some of them are attended by folks who maybe aren't involved in the club more broadly but are interested in going to a bible study that maybe their friend is leading. There is a practicing Zen gathering that doesn't necessarily require you to be a Zen practitioner and to identify as a Zen Buddhist to attend, but there are certainly folks who attend who have been, who do identify that way, both from the community and the faculty and every once in a while some of our students as well. And then there are some students who will get together around a certain holiday or something like that. There were some Hindu students last semester who got together to go to a Temple for a particular holiday. And it was sort of under the auspices of my office, sort of under the auspices of Hayat. It will sort of be an ad hoc group for a specific purpose and then they sort of will dissolve again. I feel like I'm probably forgetting something huge right now. There are some other groups that include spirituality and spiritual connection as part of what they do and who they are, but they're less, I wouldn't call them affinity groups as much because they're going to have a much broader spectrum of beliefs within them and so, there's an inspirational choir called Rejoice, and for many of the folks there there's a spiritual component to what they're doing and what they're singing but they sing songs from many different traditions. There's a mindful movement club of students that do everything from learning modern dance movement techniques to yoga to, um, I think the circus club has done some things with them. So, again some of the folks there are regular yoga practitioners and for them that is part of a religious and or spiritual practice but it's not necessarily. And then there are the folks who come to the Skidmore mindfulness. So we have weekly meditations and yoga practices and reiki and things like that that students aren't required to or the rest of the community is not required to claim any particular tradition for nor are they likely to but they can, and many of them do express that this is a spiritual thing for them. [00:19:22.000] ABS: It's a pretty full list. PD: Yeah [laughs]. Oh! I knew I was gonna forget somebody. When I started talking about Hayat I said, you know when I got here Hayat was doing all of this and they still are, but in the past year there's also been a bigger push from some of the Muslim students to actually have a club that is expressly for Muslim students. And there's been interest in that since before I got here, but our students are so involved in so much that it takes students who aren't just interested in it but are interested in taking leadership in it. And so there are some students who have started the process of making an official club, which is fantastic. But if that doesn't happen or until that happens, our office just continues to work with some of the Muslim staff and faculty to support the Muslim students on campus. [00:20:12.000] ABS: Can you also just talk a little bit about how staff and faculty are present in your office, if they are, if they have a relationship to these student groups? PD: Sure, well I should mention my staff as well so, there are three professional staff and then a kind of rotating number of student staff. And that includes a coordinator for Jewish Student Life, Martina Zobel, and a coordinator for the Skidmore Mindfulness program Jennifer Schmid-Fareed. And the two of them work both with clubs and with students who's needs aren't being met by the clubs, or who just want to do things that expand the presence of religion or spirituality or interfaith on campus. And so, the three of us are the staff and we collaborate with a lot of other staff in terms of events. I mentioned the Office of Student Diversity Programming. The director of that office and myself we oversee the Intercultural Center together. So we try and make sure that whenever there are programs that are more automatically assigned to one of our offices that we're thinking more broadly about how the work of our offices might overlap for those programs. We work with the student leadership offices and their staff because they support the clubs and events on campus and that's an obvious connection. So there are some that are quite obvious. The counseling center does stuff with the Mindfulness program, the religious studies department will have [sic] us promote some of our events and vice versa, so there are some obvious ones. And then beyond that, there are stu—er, sorry, there are staff and faculty that will attend some of our offerings. Most of the events that we do are open to staff and faculty, so they'll come to Shabbat dinner or they'll come to one of the meditations. This week we did an Ash Wednesday service and I'd say there were maybe thirty-six people there and two-thirds of them were students and the other third was probably staff and faculty. So they, there's a few. It's not a majority by any sense, it's not a large group, but there's a handful that do get involved that way just by attending and participating. And then there are some who get involved in really supporting the work of the communities and so, there are staff and faculty who don't just come to the events but will help with hiring new staff, finding new advisors, being advisors themselves. And sometimes I know about that and sometimes I learn about it later. You know, sometimes there are staff or faculty who have been helping students get to church for years and I don't find out about it until a casual conversation. So, yeah some of it's formalized and some of it's very much about some of our staff and faculty just making connections and finding out a way that they can help students get connected. And every once in a while there's a collaboration that's a little less expected so, I'm trying to think of one but, you know there have been partnerships with the Tang Teaching Museum, and there have been partnerships with different academic departments, we've worked with somebody, actually from Documentary Studies Adam Tinkle, and he does work with sound and we do work with sound healing and things and so there are some neat overlaps of some of that work. And I like to keep a sort of somewhat secret entirely unofficial list of staff and faculty who have expressed to me that they're willing to be called upon for certain things. So if there's a student who's coming to me with concerns, especially if they're from a tradition that's not well represented in the Saratoga area, which is a lot of them, I try and keep a list of which staff and faculty I might be able to point them towards. [00:24:27.000] ABS: Very cool. So, you just said that there are a lot of students whose faiths might not be represented in this area, but I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what connections have been made to groups in this area and Skidmore, and if you've seen a change in that? Either from when you were here growing up or from being here for three years and working in this position, and or if you have a vision for that going forward, in terms of where you want those relationships to be or go. PD: Sure, um, hm. How to start. There are some formal connections, so the local reform synagogue Temple Sinai, their, one of their co-rabbi's Linda Motzkin does have an official role with us as a High Holy Days chaplain. Before that she worked even more frequently, or as a more permanent, not that's not right, a more--she had a larger role at Skidmore previously, in terms of Jewish student life. And stepped back a little from that but we're very thankful she stayed on to work with us during high holy days. And part of that is that that congregation is able to use Skidmore Campus spaces for High Holy Day services where the numbers would be too much for their space. And it gives our students the gift of being able to attend services both on their campus and with a multi-generational faith community. Which I think is really wonderful. So that's been going on for years and years and years. The other connections are primarily unofficial. Although, also within the Jewish community the Saratoga Chabad works with my office to come onto campus and do table outreach basically, and also working with the Jewish student community a little bit. And then there are churches that are more likely to attract some of our students. So for instance a lot of the students involved in Christian Fellowship, or at least a decent sized group of them will carpool all to the same church on Sunday mornings. And that's not an official partnership in any way it's just a little bit of word of mouth and a little bit of common traditions and so that happens. With the Catholic churches there are two parishes in town and I've invited priests and deacons from both of them to come and do services on campus and so that'll be a wonderful way of making that connection happen. But, students can also just go wherever they'd like. And so, similarly to some of the staff connections I don't know sometimes when students are attending services in town. I like to try and find out so that if other students are looking for someone to go with I can make some introductions. And I think that's generally the same as when I was growing up, though I certainly wasn't aware of religious life at colleges. It wasn't something that I was thinking of much except that I knew the chaplain here when I was younger. And in terms of what I want to see, hyper-locally like right in Saratoga Springs, I do want to get to know more and more of the communities and the leaders. A lot of them will contact me about events and I'll try and promote those, but there's also a, I have the sense of, I'm also feeling a protection of the campus? That there are, unfortunately, always going to be religious groups that aren't--that don't necessarily have our students best interest in mind or that bring a style of communication that is aggressive in a way that I don't think a majority of our students would like. And so because of that, I've been hesitant to just put out a blanket invitation to religious groups to come to campus. I usually wait for students to express an interest in a particular community and then I will reach out. So for instance with the local Quaker community. You know they come onto campus but because there's a student interest. So I would like there to be connections. I think especially there's a lot of potential within the volunteer work and social justice side of things. A lot of our local religious communities are on the front lines of working with immigrants and refugees in the area. They're the ones that make sure that the soup kitchen is staffed and that there are, a lot of them are volunteers at the homeless shelters and so I think there are ways there to strengthen already existing partnerships. We do have students already who volunteer with all of those programs. I think we could do it more and we could do it more specifically with our religious students. And then beyond that, beyond Saratoga Springs we've had a good experience getting students to one of the mosques for some of the Eids. Or, we partnered with one of the mosques on a service project. And that's been wonderful because there are plenty of colleges and universities in the capital district. And Skidmore's small little group of students is not going to be their biggest population of young adult outreach, but it's been nice to still make those connections and I want to strengthen that as well. Yeah it's interesting because a lot of religious communities, and I'm speaking primarily out of the Christian context but I know that it's not that different in other contexts. A lot of religious communities are feeling a need to hold onto young adults with all of their might, and I've been on the leadership of communities that do this where we, we see young adults and we see numbers. We see people to keep our traditions going. And it's very self--it's very much about us as a religious community wanting to not die out, and I want to help my own church but also all of the religious communities in town approach Skidmore students with a much more giving, a much more outward looking purpose. That this is not about whether or not we get to say, "hey we've got seven college students on our lists, we're not gonna die out," or "we're really cool with the young people," but more that isn't it great that these one student or these two students are being fed by this ministry. So that's something I'd like to see happen. [00:31:33.793] ABS: Thank you for sharing. That's all the questions I have but if there's anything you want to add that you felt like didn't get in there? PD: I think one of the things I'd like to see both on campus and in Saratoga, and I think there are ways to maybe make it happen as a campus community partnership, is more engagement across ideological lines of religious communities. For example you show up to certain meetings in town of religious leaders working on a particular issue and you can sort of predict who's going to be there. And it's not that they're all the same religion it's that you're pretty sure they're all the same politics, or they're all the same, you know social views on different issues. And so one of the things that's great right now that's happening is two of the churches--so the church where the freeze shelter is hosted where Code Blue is hosted, Soul Saving Station, is very different from the church that I attend, but the church that I attend is also helping out Code Blue with some office space and some overflow space and housing people when Soul Saving Station doesn't have enough room. And those two churches could not be more different ideologically or theologically and still both be called Christian. But they are [laughs], and they're both doing this. And I think that kind of partnership, and that kind of getting to know each other could be happening more at Skidmore as well and in the town as well, so that we're expanding what it means to be religious for people who have doubts about their opinions on what it is to be religious. Maybe not doubts about their opinions, doubts about people who are religious, or doubts about people who are religious in a way that is different from them. So not necessarily interfaith cooperation but even within a tradition across ideological bounds. [00:33:45.570] ABS: Well, I wish you luck in this office PD: Thank you ABS: And all of your goals PD: Thank you ABS: Thank you so much for being part of this interview, and I'm not sure when it will go up but I will email you the link when it does. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Parker Diggory Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 16, 2018 Description An account of the resource Parker Diggory joined Skidmore as the Directory of Religious and Spiritual Life in 2016. She talks about her relationship to Saratoga Springs, religious life on campus, and religious life in town. Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bogom-Shanon, Ari '18 clubs Parker Diggory religious life https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/25ba9d47c3d7809146c0f85637cd531e.jpg a0df1d8ba18ebd0fdf3d70d6277f01c8 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/daffdef37e8698bb9a91c1ab65947ce0.m4a 3e22d33bb8e02dd6d71e82d3446d0b84 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4b9dc3e63f8c6f646e2781be2cab639b.pdf ef0a4f7e8fb8a07611b4554564f6bb8e PDF Text Text Interview with Patricia Poirier by Sandy Welter, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, February 14, 2024. SANDY WELTER: This is Sandy Welter. I am here interviewing Pat Poirier for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project. It is Monday, February 19th, 2024 and we are in the Scribner Library, room 222. Good morning, Pat. PAT POIRIER: Good morning. SW: Before we start talking about your work at Skidmore, tell us about where you were born, where you grew up. PP: I was born right here in Saratoga. My parents had moved back from California, where my brother and sister were both born, because my grandparents were here. And so, I was born here. I was raised in Schuylerville and I live across the street from the house I grew up in. So, I'm a native and I haven't moved very far. SW: And so, as a native Saratogian, how did you come to begin working at Skidmore? PP: My sister-in-law worked in Dining Services forever and a day. We were talking and she suggested that I apply for a job here, and I did. And they were, at that time, doing the Wide Horizon Campaign. It was 1979. First of all, before that, I worked in the President's Office for Joe Palamountain for a couple weeks. They had been traveling, and Nancy Glass was his secretary. And she was out on leave for whatever reason, so they needed somebody to help catch things up before they came back from wherever they had traveled to. So, I worked there for a couple weeks. And then Wide Horizon Campaign was going on, and somehow or other my resume ended up in what at that time was called External Affairs with Nancy Lester. She was the class of '58, and she was Assistant Director. Anyway, and that's how I ended up here. And I was temporary for a couple years, and then I think they forgot that I was a temporary employee. And I got pregnant and I called and I said, "Can I come back to work? I'm still temporary." And they didn't realize it, so they made my position a permanent position, made it retroactive to 1979 when I started. That was 1983, so they made it retroactive to 1979, and I got my benefits. That's how that ended up. SW: When you first went to work there, it was not called Advancement at the time. PP: It was called External Affairs at that time. SW: Okay, and your job when you first got there was to do what? PP: The Wide Horizon Campaign was going on, so what I did was prepare committee kits. The Page 1 of 6 �Development officers would go out and create committees in various areas of the country to solicit alumni in that area. And there were kits to help them do that. We had to put together biographical information on the people in that area and include gift envelopes. The Development officers hosted kickoffs, which were alumni gatherings to get as many people from that area together and explain why Skidmore was raising money for the Wide Horizon Campaign. It's different from the Annual Fund. It's a capital campaign. Skidmore was still building this campus at the time. So I did that kind of stuff. And then when the Development officers came back, I updated records on alumni, any information that came in. We found a lot of people at that time. There wasn't a real good system for keeping track of our alums and parents and everybody. Actually, the Wide Horizon started that process in vigor to get it going. SW: What was the purpose of the Wide Horizon Campaign? What was their goal? PP: When I started here they broke ground for the Phys Ed Center. They still had dorms to build and classroom buildings. And the trustees had said, "You can build, but you have to have 50% of the money in hand before you can break ground for a building." That was the rule. I don't know if they are still following that rule, but that's back then. So the goal for that campaign was $12.4 million dollars, which seems like nothing compared to what the campaigns are now. Because the whole campus was not all here on North Broadway, I believe, in 1979 there were still some students over on Union Avenue. And I don't believe any classes were there, but they were still housed over there, some of them. So the goal was to get the dorms built, I think. I don't remember that. SW: And the campaign was successful? PP: Oh, yes. It went over the goal, but I don't remember the dollar number. But yes, it was successful. SW: So from that first campaign experience, how did your job evolve? And when did this department, this area, become renamed Advancement? Do you remember? PP: I don't remember it when it became Advancement. I want to say when I started, David Long was Vice President. And then I think Dick Seaman was my next Vice President. And I believe he changed the name to Advancement, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure on that one. SW: So when you came to Skidmore, you were working under President Palamountain. PP: President Palamountain, yes. SW: So you've worked under how many other presidents during your tenure? PP: I think there were five. It was Joe Palamountain, David Porter, Jamie Studley. Who came Page 2 of 6 �after her? Did Phil come after her? Phil Glotzbach, so there were only four. I retired before Mark Connor came. Yeah, and Joe Palamountain, he was fun to work with. SW: What makes you say that? Can you give us an example? PP: When I first came here, I was 21 and I was scared to death of a PhD, but he and Anne were just the most welcoming people. One time when I had moved over to Advancement, we had a wall that separated our office from the Provost, and Joe came in and talked to the Provost a lot. We had been blowing bubbles over the wall, and I said to the girl on the other side, "You're going to get me in trouble. Stop blowing bubbles. Stop blowing bubbles!" And I stood up on a chair and looked over, and it was Joe Palamountain blowing bubbles over the wall, and he was laughing. Oh my God, he was laughing. I said "Well, I guess he can't get me in trouble." He was just a sweetheart. I loved all the Presidents, actually. SW: What a great story! So talk a little bit about some of the changes in your job over the years. Did you see your job changing in some ways? PP: I guess it changed a couple times. I always helped. There was another person in my original position, of course. I moved around not by choice, but they moved me around to work for various Development officers. I had to call and make appointments for them or whatever else, make their travel arrangements. I did all of that for a while, but I really did not enjoy that. When the person who had my position retired in 1990, Nancy Lester slipped me right back into it. Back then, I guess you didn't have to do a whole big to-do, advertise, or whatever. She slipped me right into it, and I really enjoyed it because we went from doing address changes on paper and mailing them out and getting them back and having to file what we called PRC cards, which were permanent record cards to computerization then to the next computerization. Everything was instant instead of two weeks out. SW: Tell us about Nancy Lester. PP: Nancy Lester was the class of '58. She graduated in May and started working here in June. And I think she was here about 30 years. Personally, she could be tough, demanding in how she wanting things done, but I always thought she was very fair. She was one of my best supervisors, really. I really enjoyed working for her. SW: Could you give us the title of the position that you held and maybe a little overview of the work? PP: My position technically was called Coordinator of Biographical Records. My main purpose was to keep track of all the alums. They would call me when they moved, changed jobs, got married, got divorced, passed away. I didn't write the obituaries, but I did all the biographical collection of what they did through their lifetime when they passed away so that the alumni news editor could write up an obituary for Scope. That's when we had Scope and class newsletters all the time. Also, I had quite a list of people, until I retired, Page 3 of 6 �that formerly worked here that wanted to know, especially the ... What do you call them, the person who gets people to put us in their will? I forget what they are called. I can't remember, but they wanted to know if one of their alums had passed away. A lot of times, gift officers and other Skidmore people would go to funerals. I went to a couple funerals because I had known the alums for years and had contacted them often. We represented the College by going to the funerals. I did all of that. I did it for parents in the summertime. I put all the incoming students and their parents on the database all summer long because we solicit the parents also, or corporations. Any biographical information came through me. SW: What would you consider some of your major successes or your contributions to Skidmore? PP: We have a bunch of alumni that we couldn't find. We called them lost alumni. I felt towards the end of my career, with the advent of more computer search engines, that they were out there and we could find them. I felt really good that we got our percentage of lost alumni down to less than 10% out of however many we have now. That's not bad and a major success. I am also proud of my diligence to keep track of alumni and the connection I made with a lot of them. They knew me, especially the older ladies who went back and forth to Florida in the wintertime. We call them snowbirds. They would call me. I had a couple I had to call when I retired and say, "I'm leaving now. You'll just have to call the main office number now. You don't have to worry about it. It'll happen automatically, but if you feel better calling" ... And I still keep in touch with a lot of my friends. I have one student worker who worked for me just for a year, but we're still friends. She graduated in '93, and we still get together occasionally. And a couple Board members. Bill Ladd, he's a very close friend, was right there when my husband passed away. He was on the phone, one of the first. He's a Ladd. I just want to say. I knew his grandmother. SW: Yes, Skidmore is like a family, and you were feeling very much part of the family. PP: Yes, exactly. SW: That's wonderful. We talked a little bit about challenges. Any struggles that you felt or maybe even the changes you've seen over the years that you've been at Skidmore? PP: The biggest challenge was when we converted databases. I had to speak up about things that I kept track of that I felt had to be converted somehow and into the new system. I really fought to be a part of the team that did the mapping and converting of data from one database to another. I think we did three software changes while I was here. That was my big thing. I was so protective of my records and I wanted them to get transferred properly. We talked it out and figured out where to put things, and it worked. Then of course afterward, as time went on, these conversions were smoother. Then you had to go in and straighten things out a little bit afterwards. SW: Right. Your work environment, where you worked in Advancement changed during the Page 4 of 6 �course of your tenure, I think. Where were you first housed? Then wherePP: We were on fourth floor, Palamountain, which was the best place in the world to work. We had the President's office. We had the Registrar's office. We had Financial Aid. Plus we had the interaction with the students because they were always in the hall. We just loved fourth floor Palamountain, but we outgrew it. Because as the College grew, we had more people. We had to get more Development officers, so we moved over to North Hall and then eventually the Alumni office. That section moved over to Colton House to give us more room, and then they added on a section in the back of North Hall. We were supposed to be there temporarily, but I think they're still there. So it hasn't moved. SW: Yes. Your fondest memories? We mentioned a little. PP: My fondest memory is a reunion. Even last year was the first year that I was able to get back on Saturday to the reunion parade and the alums. I love them, especially the older ones. Like I say, I knew Helen Filene Ladd. She was class of '22. Again, I was 22, so it was 1982. I was working her reunion, and a couple kids went down to the airport to pick her up and lost her luggage. So she's standing there at the desk. I didn't know who she was. Registration was at Case Center at the desk, and she's standing there. I said, "May I help you?" And she said, "I'm Helen Filene Ladd, and they lost my luggage. Oh my goodness, they're making a big to-do about it.” She was just a sweetheart, but the older ladies, they're just so happy to come back here, so proud of the College, the whole nine yards. And they always remembered us, those of us who worked there. I just loved working the reunions. It was long hours, a long weekend, but it was great. SW: Is there anything else that you would like to add, any other reflections, any influential people you might want to mention that you worked with over the years? You mentioned the presidents. You mentioned the students and the alums, some of your colleagues, like Nancy Lester. Anything else you would like to add to round out the picture of your life at Skidmore? PP: I was very fortunate to work with terrific Vice Presidents. All of them had their own personalities. I was especially close to David Long up until he passed away. I still, actually last week, had lunch with his wife. And I've kept in touch with Chris Hook, who was one of my Vice Presidents. Michael Casey, I think was. No, he wasn't my last Vice President. Sean Campbell was, but Michael Casey, such a tragic loss. Really sweet guy, great to work for. Skidmore has a talent for hiring great people, really great people. Like I say, I got along with most of the Presidents. I'll just put it that way, to put it diplomatically. But I love Phil, and Mark seems to be wonderful. At our retirement events, he's just so welcoming. I just learned a lot about fundraising, about keeping track of money. I now happen to be the financial secretary at my church, and I often say, "You can't do this. You have to do it this way," just because of what I learned here, even though it's a much smaller organization. But I learned a lot about the fundraising aspect of private institutions and nonprofits, and it's amazing. Page 5 of 6 �SW: And finally, you've continued your relationship with Skidmore through the RetireePP: The Retiree Initiative Program Group. SW: Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing there? PP: I'm just part of the group, but it's staying connected. I kind of worried when I left that I would lose touch. I was here 41 years. It was my life; Skidmore saw me through every major event in my life - my mother passing away, my father passing away, my husband passing away. Skidmore was there. We were so close and such a family and they kept me going. I just said, "I don't want to lose out on being a part of Skidmore." So being on RIPG, it forces me ... I'm very much a homebody, so it forces me to participate. I come to all the programs that interest me that are here. I plan the wine, cheese, and chat. I took that over when somebody else didn't want to do it anymore. That is for welcoming the retirees from the past year, and anybody else can come. Actually, Phil is going to speak this year on that. We also have a grant program for retirees as they have projects that they work on. I'm not really clear on this, but I believe even if they volunteer someplace and this place needs money for a special project, we will grant them money. Phyllis Roth, I didn't know this, and I was in the Advancement office, but Phyllis Roth left a grant for retirees' projects. So we have a budget every year that we can use for grants to support retiree initiatives. If we want to take a trip, part of that is subsidized through her grant. And it's just nice. What I like is I get to meet people that, like you, I talked on the phone, but we're all equals. I'm not just one of the people keeping track of everything. We're professors. We're administrators. We're support staff. There's a nice mix on the committee, and we all are working. It's just wonderful. It's a wonderful experience. I love being on that committee. SW: Well, we're so pleased that you were able to participate in our oral history project, Pat, and your insights are invaluable. They're really wonderful. What year did you start at Skidmore? PP: I started January 15th, 1979, which was my birthday. And I retired January 15th, 2020, which was very fortuitous for me, because where I live, at that time, we did not have high speed internet. I don't know what I would have done because I couldn't work from home. So I don't know. Something told me I had to retire at the right time, so I did. So, I had exactly 41 years. SW: Wonderful. We thank you so much and we wish you the very best. We look forward to seeing you more at the RIPG programs. Thank you, Pat. PP: Well, thank you. I'm so thrilled to be asked to do this. I really, really am. Page 6 of 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sandy Welter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patricia Poirier Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 25:51 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit April 14, 2024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Patricia Poirier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 14, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Patricia Poirier came to Skidmore in 1979 as a support staff member in the President’s Office and retired as the Coordinator of Biographical Records in the Office of Advancement in 2020.  In her 41 years at Skidmore, Pat worked under four Presidents, saw the College move fully to the North Broadway campus, worked on the Wide Horizons Campaign, and developed lasting relationships with students, faculty, staff, and especially alumni.  She helped implement several of the College’s data management upgrades for the Office of Advancement and left that office with a well-organized and thorough system of contacts for students, parents, and alums, an invaluable resource for future Presidents, Development officers, reunion coordinators, and alumni.   Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/878e3a4fa806b9605ac6f26942f32606.jpg 128109595eac0e28fe95caae0b107653 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/481f4b8849648292837e96bc57e93349.m4a 69d3219334afbfa528baa2511fdfdb5a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0015f5078efa840e8d501ff9137ae0b5.pdf f91bf649c477a6c5293ca2442c876b1b PDF Text Text Interviewee: Patricia Rubio Years at Skidmore: 1985 - 2016 Interviewers: Lynne Gelber and Susan Bender Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: April 14, 2021 00:00:00 Header 00:00:33 Born in Valparaíso, Chile; lived in Viña del Mar; attended small, multilingual, private K-12 school in Valparaíso. 00:01:28 Attended Universidad Católica de Valparaíso - 5 year program for a degree in Spanish 00:02:12 Applied for/received Fulbright Scholarship to attend University of Minnesota 00:03:00 Planned return to Valparaíso to teach, but 1973 military coup changed University situation and prevented return. 00:03:35 March 1974 joined Juan Carlos in Spain and they married there in June 1974 00:03:50 Lived in Barcelona for a year and a half; applied to graduate programs in Canada; attended University of Alberta/lived 5 years in Edmonton. 00:04:41 Came to Skidmore September 1980. Juan Carlos taught and Paty completed dissertation; both applied for green cards; daughter Camila born June 1982. 00:05:35 Because couldn’t return to Chile, had intentionally staggered dissertation completions, so if 1st MLA search unsuccessful, they could stay in Canada while Paty completed dissertation. 00:06:28 In 1984 Paty taught a semester at Middlebury College, VT. Paty & Camila moved to VT, Juan Carlos spent weekends there. 00:07:34 Paty applied to positions at Skidmore and Russel Sage. Offered both; chose Skidmore. 00:08:02 Visa and citizenship processes expensive, time consuming. 00:08:53 Now hiring institutions pay the fees; that has helped Skidmore draw foreign faculty. 00:09:39 Taught 101 - 300 level classes in Spanish American literature and culture. 101 is favorite “because students are a clean linguistic slate and they have a sense that they’re really making progress throughout the semester.” 00:10:33 The few Hispanic undergraduate students at that time “gravitated towards Spanish.” 00:11:30 The Spanish-speaking students had stronger oral skills than grammatical; therefore different needs than the non-Spanish speaking students. 00:12:41 Other roles: 1987-1990 coordinated Self Instructional Languages Program (SILP). 00:14:11 In SILP, students develop oral skills using recordings, a curriculum, and meetings with tutors, most of whom are native speakers. 00:17:00 Also: directed Women’s Studies program, chaired Foreign Languages & Literatures Department for 5 years; Associate Dean of the Faculty for 7 years, was Acting Dean when President Phil Glotzbach went on sabbatical. 00:17:50 Helped move Women’s Studies program from a minor to a major, establishing a curriculum in Women’s Studies. 00:18:31 Goal of Women’s Studies 101: provide overview of the field and current/evolving issues, so covered wide range of topics - theoretical, historical, sociological, political. 00:19:27 In June 1997 brought National Association for Women’s Studies’ annual conference to Skidmore. Collaborated with Special Programs and with Women’s Studies faculty to create program. Great ideas - art exhibits, a film program, a book show, presentations, keynotes, etc. 00:24:44 Challenging, but “I discovered I could do this!” Phyllis Roth empowering influence. �00:25:30 Also, administrator roles were empowering — could improve things for the department. Example - stabilizing adjunct courses by making full-time adjunct positions. 00:27:55 Became Associate Dean when Muriel Poston was Dean. Learned to look at things from broader perspective. 00:30:00 Rubio (from Humanities), Poston (from Sciences) perfect team b/c balanced qualitative & quantitative. Learned how to put problems in context to see various repercussions of small decisions for the departments and college. 00:31:32 As administrator, saw Skidmore as a whole Institution,… possibilities, strengths, weaknesses, places to concentrate, who to talk to, who can help? 00:32:00 “It’s fascinating! … those seven years that I was in the Dean’s office, I liked every single one. … I just loved every minute of it.” 00:32:38 Interest in diversity arose first with students — realizing how the Latino students felt… that one of the reasons they came to study Spanish is because they found people like them. 00:33:53 Latino Cultural Society was first Latino student organization - evolved into RAICES. 00:34:17 Another source of interest in diversity was the program itself - Foreign languages … by definition [a] diverse topic …foreign languages, foreign cultures. 00:34:35 And Muriel Poston herself; the first Black Dean of the Faculty in a mostly white institution & white community. Had to go to Glens Falls simply to get hair done. When Poston interviewed at Skidmore, she asked to meet with faculty of color. There were only 5 or 6. 00:35:17 Once Dean, Poston asked faculty to examine department hiring processes to determine usefulness in attracting faculty of color. 00:35:40 When Beau Breslin became Dean, he appointed [Rubio] Associate Dean for Diversity. Skidmore hired consultants to improve hiring processes. Success in that effort due in part to great support from Deans Muriel Poston and Beau Breslin and President Phil Glotzbach. 00:37:35 A position description/ad exhibits “the seriousness of the institution … in terms of hiring faculty of color.” Hiring processes changed, following consultant’s advice. 00:39:12 Retired 2016 00:41:03 Since retiring, annually travels to Chile for several months to help sister run her restaurant and to visit lifelong friends; in summers volunteers with Saratoga backstretch workers, teaching English as a second language; plays golf; on board of Saratoga Film Forum and Saratoga Chamber Players; passionate about working in yard and garden. 00:43:06 Also reads a lot. “Now I’d rather read than write. Juan Carlos taught me that. …at some point he said, ‘I’m done with research. I don’t want to write any more, I want to read.' And that makes sense to me now. It didn’t then but it makes sense to me now.” 00:44:21 END � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c65a837e139652e712cc71568c96093f.pdf d1c119146a7bb209bf72eb7cb8c16e85 PDF Text Text Interview with Patricia Rubio by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 14, 2021. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber. I am with Susan Bender. It is April 14th, 2021, and we are interviewing Patricia Rubio for the Oral History Project. So … PATRICIA RUBIO: Thank you for having me. LG: It’s our pleasure and thank you for doing this. PR: Well, my pleasure. LG: Patty, why don’t you tell us a little bit about where you were born and brought up and your early schooling. PR: Sure. I was born in Valparaíso, Chile, but lived from ages six to 23 in Viña del Mar. Valparaíso’s twin city. My three sisters and I went to a small private school in Valparaíso. There were about 600 students between kindergarten and 12th grade, and most of the instruction in elementary school was done in German. So, I was introduced to a foreign languages at age 5 in kindergarten. and graduated from this school thirteen years later with additional solid instruction in English which was introduced in seventh grade. I was very fortunate to have had access to that kind of education. Classes were very small, never more than fourteen to fifteen students; there were seven students in my senior class most of whom I had known since kindergarten or first grade. I interrupted my studies in my junior year to come to live with a family and attend high school in Storrs, CT. in 1962. This was also an important experience in my upbringing. After high school I entered college. LG: In Valparaíso? �PR: Yes. The college system in Chile follows the European model, which means that one has decided in one’s two last years of high school the career one will pursue. From very early in high school I knew that I wanted to teach and I liked literature and history so I pursued a degree in Spanish. So Spanish and Latin American literature and culture with a very solid foundation in syntax and linguistics. It’s a five-year program that included one year of Latin and Greek, theoretical linguistics, syntax and normative grammar. The objective of the program was to prepare students to teach the Spanish high school curriculum which included Spanish, Chilean and Spanish American literature plus Spanish grammar and writing. I had also made up my mind while in college, to pursue graduate study, at least a Masters degree. So, in my last year at the university, I applied for a Fulbright Scholarship which I received. LG: And that was at Valparaíso? PR: Yes, at the Universidad Católica de Valparaíso. In those days, this 1969-70, Fulbright assigned prospective students to graduate programs at Universities in the U.S.. In Chile I had begun to pursue an academic career through teaching assistant positions in Spanish American literature. I was approached to teach General Literature, and so a degree in Comparative literature was appropriate. The idea was that I would return from the U.S. with an M.A. to a position that included General Literature as part of my teaching duties. But things happened. The military took over the government in 1973, during my first semester at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis. The situation at the University in Chile changed and I never returned. Instead of Chile, I left for Spain in March 1974, and married Juan Carlos in June of that year. �LG: In Barcelona? PR: In the Barcelona area. We lived in Barcelona for a year and a half, knowing that it was just a stop in the voyage, and went to Canada to pursue our PhDs in Hispanic literatures and the University of Alberta. We lived in Edmonton for five years which despite the extreme harsh winters we really enjoyed. We staged it so that Juan Carlos would defend his dissertation before I did so that we would have two possible hiring rounds for finding jobs in this part of the world. Jobs were not easy to find. Lynne, you were the chair of Modern Languages and Literatures then and you hired both of us. Thank you for having done so! LG: The rest is history! [laughter] LG: So, when you came here you were not initially teaching but then …? PR: Well, what happened is that Juan Carlos came with an H-1B visa, which allowed him to work and I had a visa that allowed me to live in the country but not to work. We applied for the green card in Juan Carlos’ second year here, had Camila, and waited patiently for the INS to do its work. The process was successful, and we became citizens five or six years later. LG: You came to Skidmore? PR: We both came to Skidmore in September 1980. LG: OK. PR: When we came, I was ABD, Juan Carlos had finished his degree. I had been awarded a thesis scholarship, which would have allowed us to stay for an additional year in Canada. In our first year here I completed the dissertation. I taught at Middlebury College in a one semester replacement in 1984. Camila, who was a toddler, and I moved to Vermont. LG: Camilla was born here. �PR: Yes. Remember LG: I do remember because we decorated the office. PR: [laughter] Yeah. Yes, she was born in June 1982. You gave Juan Carlos a really good schedule according to which he started teaching late on Mondays and ended early on Friday afternoon so that he would be able to drive to Middlebury to spend the weekend with us. It was a tough semester. I had never taught in the US; they had hired me because they needed someone who would be able to teach Spanish American Culture and Civilization. Every class was a new prep. I remember spending every Saturday at the library preparing classes, while Juan Carlos took care of Camila. Sunday was a family day. After we obtained our permanent visa, I applied for several positions in the area, including Skidmore. The faculty had changed the curriculum and passed a foreign language requirement. So the department needed to hire two additional faculty and, as I said before, you hired me. I also had an offer from Russel Sage but of course I chose Skidmore. LG: Thank goodness! PR: Either before or after Middlebury, but during the visa process during which I was allowed to work, you hired me to teach part time: one Spanish language course each in the fall and the spring. If I remember well, it was Intermediate Spanish. LG: As I recall, we were able to use the services of the lawyer for the College, in Glens Falls. PR: That was in order to get the renewal of Juan Carlos’ H-1B. We hired a lawyer from Albany to help us with the application process for the residency visa. In those days, the Institution didn’t have to pay for the process. After the immigration law changed, the hiring institution is responsible for the fees �which are very high. We are fortunate that Skidmore has been able to do that because it explains in part the success the institution has had in hiring foreign faculty in the past five years. A good number of the foreign faculty come with an H1-B visas which is the entry way to permanent residency. LG: I vaguely remember that. PR: Yes. LG: So what courses were you teaching? PR: Where? LG: At Skidmore. PR & LG: [laughter] LG: Thank you. PR: That’s O.K. Well you know that in our department, everyone teaches the whole gamut of courses So I taught beginning Spanish and all the way up to 300 level classes including Spanish American literature and culture. LG: And what were your favorite? PR: My favorite? I always liked to teach 101, because students are a clean linguistic slate, and they have a sense that they’re really making progress throughout the semester. The more fortunate ones, during Christmas break, would travel to a Spanish speaking country where they realized that they could read a menu, could be really helpful to their families in negotiating the cities, reading signs, etc... This was a powerful experience and they would come back really energized and ready for more. LG: How many Hispanic students were there in the undergraduate population at that point? PR: Few. They gravitated towards Spanish courses, thinking that being Latino also meant being Latin American; and some were immigrants themselves. It was very nice to have, particularly at the upper level, students from diverse �backgrounds. They contributed points of view and diverse ideas to class discussion. At the upper level, that is in literature and culture and civ courses, there were always a number of native Spanish speakers, and that was also nice. In these classes we read sophisticated materials and they were able to help their classmates to plough through the texts. Nowadays Latino students are aware of their identity as citizens of this country. Many take Spanish classes because they want to increase their language abilities and learn about their cultural and family backgrounds. LG: As I recall, those students had an oral knowledge. Is that correct? Yes, they did. Their oral skills outperformed their ability to write correctly in Spanish. Often first or second-generation students had the most difficulties because they were fluent but their knowledge of the language was not normative; their grammar was not accurate. Our curriculum back then was mostly intended for non-native speakers and those courses were in many ways not well suited for students who had leaned Spanish at home without formal instruction. LG: And they didn’t have any grammar skills? PR: Most of them did not. The grammar accuracy was all over the place [laughter]. LG & SUE BENDER: [laughter] SB: Spanglish. PR: [laughter] Well, a lot of Spanglish, like, “How are you?” “Nada mucho,” which in Spanish means, “he or she swims a lot.” Very difficult linguistic habits to undo. But this was the Spanish they heard and spoke in their communities, and it worked for them. Many of them were eager to learn normative grammar. �I also very much liked teaching mixed populations of students: US majority students with Latino students. LG: So you had other responsibilities in the course of your career? PR: Yes. it started with the Self-Instructional Languages program. You appointed me as coordinator in 1987 a position that I held until 1990. Sonja Karsen had established the program in the seventies and coordinated it until she retired. LG: Sonja Karsen, who was the … chair of the department? PR: For twenty-two years, right? LG: Until … PR: Until she stepped down and you became chair. LG: Yeah … PR: The Self-Instructional Languages program contributed to the language offerings of the department. It included, LG: Arabic and Hebrew. PR: Yes, Japanese, Chinese, Portuguese and Russian. LG: Russian, how could I forget? PR: We then added Korean and Sanskrit. SILP was and continues to be a very successful program, it allows the College to offer twelve languages, which is impressive. And it is popular program with students. Years after I had stepped down and began to chair the department, the program was enrolling close to 80 students. The SILP languages continue to be a venue for the fulfillment of the language requirement. LG: Say one or two words about what the Self-Instructional Language Program is. PR: Sure. The focus is on developing aural and oral skills. Students meet with a tutor (most tutors are native speakers), twice a week for an hour. Students have to have prepared the material before coming to the tutoring session, �thus the name of the program. At the tutoring session, they discuss and practice material, and agree on the assignment for the following week. Tutors guide and monitor students’ progress. During my time with the program, students had a textbook and tapes as learning materials. They followed the curriculum developed by the Self Instructional Languages Association. Tutoring groups are small, not to exceed 5 students per language section. When the number of registered students exceeded five, as it often happened in Hebrew, for example, students were placed into parallel sections. This allowed for ample time for discussion and practice and ultimately students had more one-on-one time with the tutor than in a regular class that met three times a week with 15 students. LG: And the instructor is a native speaker except for Sanskrit. PR: And Arabic and Hebrew PR: The person who tutors in Arabic, has a doctorate in Arabic linguistics, and the person in Hebrew, although she was not from Israel, was very successful and probably the longest serving tutor in the program. Both were there when I took over the coordination of the program and remained long after I had stepped down. I believe that Regina Hurwitz still tutors Arabic. LG: Well … PR: At the end of the semester students were tested by an outside examiner. The SILP Association helped us to identify potential outside examiners when necessary. The Japanese examiner came from Cornell, the one for Hebrew from the State University at Buffalo, the examiner for Russian from the U of Albany, etc. LG: And what was your role? PR: As coordinator I met with each student interested in the SILP language before �they registered in order to explain how the program functioned and what their responsibilities would be. It was important for them to understand, for example, that the grade they received in the final exam was the grade for the course. That they needed to work diligently during the semester even if they were not being tested periodically for a grade. Any testing given during the semester was only diagnostic. The program was not open to first year students. The thinking was that there are too many claims on their time that could interfere with the independent study of the language. I also coordinated the tutoring schedules and liaised with the Registrar’s Offic. I hired the examiners and set the final exam schedule. Examiners often were not local. I was also the person to go for tutors and students in case of grievances or problems. LG: What other roles did you have in the course of your career? PR: I directed the Women’s Studies program for four years, succeeding Mary Stange who had been the first director of the program. I thoroughly enjoyed this assignment. A number of my courses in the Foreign Languages and Literatures department counted towards the WS minor and the major. During my time as director, the faculty approved the major. During my time as director, we expanded the WS curriculum to include one intermediate level course and the senior seminar. The WS faculty was very supportive of the various initiatives that we pursued and contributed to various tasks when necessary. Although the program had existed for over a decade, it cemented its place among other interdisciplinary programs once the major was approved. The generation of women faculty that preceded me, and most of whom were tenured professors before I joined the College in 1984, had worked hard in building the program. Most of them were very committed to �enriching and delivering the curriculum, advising students, supervising theses, and in mentoring incoming women faculty. . When I stepped down from WS I became chair of the FLL, a position I occupied for five years. I then became Associate Dean of the Faculty a position I held for seven years. LG: What was, do you think, in all those years, your biggest challenge? PR: Every administrative position brought different challenges; that is what made each so interesting; everyone presented opportunities for professional and personal growth. For example, when I became WS director, the program was ready to move from a minor to a major. The proposal for the major was a collective WS faculty undertaking spearheaded by Kate Berheide and myself. Kate, a professor in Sociology, had experience in WS program design. The WS faculty, had a central role in the discussion and approval of the final proposal. The process took over a year from start to finish, that is from when we began to work on the proposal to college faculty approval. We needed to have all our ducks in a row as we knew that we would face some opposition from a number of principally male segments of the faculty. Although the vote was not unanimous the proposal passed by a sizable majority. It would be interesting to revisit the minutes of that Faculty Meeting. As a result of the major’s approval, student interest in WS grew so that it became necessary, for example, to offer two sections of WS 101 every semester. This was huge because we were able to increase the number of students interested in pursuing the major or minor. On average, during my time as director, we majored about 8 students per year, which was not small for an interdisciplinary program. �LG: Did you teach the 101 course? PR: Yes, I did for the four years I headed the program. It loved the course; the curriculum was broad and interesting; student interest was high and 101 engaged them in a journey of discovery regarding their own identity as women. Although the majority of students were women, there were one or two men per year who were curious took it. There were no male majors during my time s director. LG: And generally, what kinds of things did you cover in that course? PR: It included the history of the US women’s and feminist movements; women’s political struggles and involvement in the fight for the vote, the ERA. Their participation in the antislavery and temperance movements. We studied feminist theory; the history of women’s pursuit for the control of our bodies; the political, social and personal consequences of women’s social roles in patriarchal societies and in the patriarchal workplace; the intersections between gender, race, ethnicity and class. We also read literature, notedly Atwood’s A Handmaid’s Tale; some poetry. The objective of the course was for students to understand the discipline; the areas of knowledge that define Women’s Studies. To provide a solid base for the rest of the curriculum. LG: Now, what do you recall from those years that you were directing the Women’s Studies program? PR: I recall many things. I recall the importance for the institution of having a vibrant, energetic community of female faculty. We built community by means of, for example, weekly brown-bag lunches, two WS potluck dinners per year which were open to students and staff as well; faculty meetings to discuss issues pertaining the program: curriculum, staffing needs, program objectives, invited speakers, etc. These were always occasions to welcome and recruit incoming faculty, to learn about each other’s teaching and �research. Students were involved in several of these activities: they were part of the Steering committee, and as I have said6 invited to WS sponsored activities. In terms of challenges, the four-day National Women’s Studies Association meeting, in June 1997 was huge. Phyllis Roth, then Dean of the Faculty and Vice-president of Academic Affairs. was approached by Marjorie Prise, then President of the NWSA, about the possibility of hosting the 1997 annual meeting. Marjorie was then Professor of English at the University of Albany, and I was incoming director of Women’s Studies. Phyllis consulted with Mary and me, and we decided to accept the challenge. And a challenge it was!! Mary went on sabbatical and I attended the NWSA 1995 meeting at the University of Oklahoma, in order to meet with members of the NWSA leadership, and to observe how the conference was structured and ran. There were over 500 participants at the Tulsa meeting, and we needed to plan for similar attendance at Skidmore. It exceeds the scope of this interview to detail what the planning and organization for the conference entailed. Suffice it to say that central to its success was the active involvement of the WS faculty, and the collaboration with Sharon Arpey in Special Programs. The Women’s Studies faculty and I worked on the ‘academic’ program, while Sharon Arpey undertook the ‘non-academic’ aspects of the event (housing, food, infrastructure, etc.). She and I worked closely for two years. The conference included a film program, a sculpture show in South Park, a women-faculty art show in Schick Gallery, a large book exhibit in the gym, dozens and dozens of presentations, several keynote speakers, and a healthy dose of minor controversies. �LG: So you were coordinating, what, with the library and with the Tang? PR: The Tang did not exist back then; we had an exhibit at the library on women in Skidmore’s history organized by Mary Lynn who, with some of her students drew materials from the College archive. LG: OK LG: It sounds like it was most fun. PR: Yes, it was. I also discovered that I could successfully work on a large project. At first, when Phyllis said that it would be my undertaking, I said, “Sure, why not” and when I left her office I thought, “By golly! What did I just get into? LG: Very empowering, isn’t it? PR: Yes, it was, and I thank Phyllis for having given me the opportunity and for having confidence in me. Typical Phyllis: she gave opportunities for people to grow and develop. I remember in my first year chatting with her while we walked across campus; at some point she said, “Well, you know, in the future you’ll be chair of the department,” and I thought, Really? Am I hearing right? So going back to your earlier question, Lynne, of major challenges, every one of the positions presented worthy challenges. Chairing the FLL was also a huge challenge. But by then I had discovered that I could be an effective administrator and I wanted to be chair. I had also learned that I could work with various individuals, even with those with whom I was not particularly simpatico. All of that was very empowering, as you said before, and I needed every bit of that experience as head of the FLL. You were chair of the department for a good chunk of time, you know how complicated it is to head a multi-section department; every section has its needs, the whole is �larger than the sum of its parts. I always thought that one of the main challenges in the department was the imbalance of its structure: two large section, French and Spanish, and four smaller sections, Chinese, Japanese, German and Italian, three of which were unevenly staffed. So when Chuck Joseph who was Dean of the Faculty interviewed me for the position, I told him that one of my objectives as chair would be to stabilize the small sections. So that they would feel better in the department, not overwhelmed by the two large sections. It was hard to keep the department engaged in everything, knowing that colleagues in the small sections, often felt that their voices were not as strong as those in the large sections. So I said to Chuck “There are three sections — Japanese, Chinese, and German — that only have one full time faculty and also adjuncts; it is always a problem in Saratoga find good adjuncts for those positions. I told him that I wanted to upgrade the second position to full-time. It would also free tenure and tenure track faculty to participate in the delivery if the all-College requirement. He agreed, and we created a second full-time position in German, Japanese and Chinese. Italian had been stabilized when Giuseppe became chair; at that point we hired a second person into a tenure track position. PR: So that objective was realized, and I still feel proud of it. The other major undertaking was guiding the the self-study necessary for the 10-year review, so once the review was done, I was ready to go. You know? There were other colleagues wanting to be chair and, who had other ideas for the department, and that’s important. PR: Then Muriel became Dean, and after … LG: Muriel? PR: Poston. Muriel Poston became Dean, and after her first Associate Dean, Mark �Hoffman, stepped down — he had only made a commitment for two years, — there was a call for interested faculty in the ADOF position. I threw my hat in. Ultimately, Muriel offered me the position which was an entirely different ballgame. In all the other administrative positions I dealt with specific, more or less narrowly defined tasks: hiring, the schedule, tending to faculty needs, mentoring incoming or pre-tenure faculty, connecting to the DOF, etc. In the Dean’s Office, one gets to see the institution from a very different venue. It was, like, “Wow, this is really something that I’ve never done.” Muriel had a broad and deep understanding of US higher education. She had also worked at the National Science Foundation, was a member of a number of associations of higher ed, was very interested in educational policy, in diversity issues. I learned enormously from her. During the three years that I worked with her she sent me to conferences, encouraged me to meet other ADOFs from different institutions, to get involved in various groups and tasks. For the first time I understood how narrowly I had understood my position and responsibilities at the institution; how little I knew of the big picture of higher education writ large. This is not just the department, this is not just my course, this is not just my research, but this is the institution, nationally. LG: So … ok, when …oh, alright. So when you are talking about writ large, are you talking about things like finances and, are you talking about …? PR: Mmm, I am mostly talking about the academic area. As the ADOF, one of my responsibilities was academic space: labs, research areas, classrooms, studios, etc., When we hire, particularly in the sciences, can we accommodate that person in terms of their lab needs? Finance, not directly, but most everything that one wishes or needs to do is budgetarily possible or not. One of my tasks was to try to find the money; talk to folks in financial �affairs. The same with faculty positions. I was in charge of all non-tenure track hiring. Every one of those positions needed approval from Financial Affairs. What was incredibly interesting fin working with Muriel is that she her disciplinary training was in the natural sciences and for her data is central. So, I would bring an issue to her, and she would say, what is your data? We would discuss it and at some point it became clear that we were interpreting it differently. She, from a quantitative and I from qualitative perspective. She would frequently say, “but the data, Paty, suggests that…” and I’d said, “yes, but not everything is data, Muriel.” Right? “What do you mean?” “Well, there are ambiguities, you know. Look at the data from this perspective” And because she was very smart, she would say, “Oh, ok, fine. Let’s then rethink it.” The process was fascinating. She had the ability of seeing both the particular and the general at the same time. Discussions would begin at the micro level and often by the time she was done with it, we were able to understand the larger implications. I had never worked with a person like Muriel. PR: I wanted to help Muriel to understand the culture of the institution. She came to us from the National Science Foundation. She was an outsider; the only black woman in the upper administration; she had not worked at a small liberal arts college before; and she needed help on how to … and so how to get people to get to know her; she was shy. And I was not always successful in creating opportunities for her to know the faculty. I mean, you know, I was part of the administration, but I was unable to solve the problem fully. So, in that sense, I failed, if you will. My experience in the Dean’s Office, however, was amazing. For the first time I understood the institutional �possibilities and the limitations. When Muriel left, Beau Breslin stepped into the Dean’s position. My job changed in interesting ways as faculty development and diversity were added to my duties. I had learned much from Muriel about the importance and need for hiring diverse faculty across the institution. It would be too long to detail what we did. Suffice it to say that Beau moved along what Muriel had begun; after four years the profile of the Skidmore faculty was beginning to change. It wasn’t easy. Departments were not always ready to shed their old procedures. “We shouldn’t do it this way”, “We have never done it this way”. But finally, everyone bought into it. It was fascinating. LG: Icing on the cake? PR: Icing on the cake, yeah. (00:32:25 ) SB: Could I ask a question? PR: Sure. SB: Talking about the institution, … LG: This is Susan talking. SB: This is Susan talking, yeah. [laughs] We were talking about your Institution wide perspective in engagement, Patty. I know that diversity was a topic near and dear … maybe Lynne was heading in that direction, but near and dear to your heart, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the source of your commitment to diversity and what you believe, over the years, how Skidmore changed in that regard? What some of the successes, challenges were and some of the challenges that still remain? PR: The source of my initial interest was connected to students, really, specifically to the Latino students. When I came to Skidmore, a steady number of them, particularly Latinas took my classes, my lit and culture classes mostly. And as a result, I developed relationships with students, and realized the cultural �confusion of many of them. I taught language courses and Spanish American lit and culture. We did not then have courses on LatinX studies which is what they were really craving for. Mine and other courses in the department could only partially fulfill their need for understanding part of their cultural identity. So, with a little bit of guidance they created the Latino Cultural Society which was the first Latino student organization at Skidmore; it then became RAICES. It helped then to consolidate their position at the institution which was and still is majority white. They brought speakers, organized social and cultural events. They were a diverse bunch with various backgrounds. And then, of course, came Muriel. Muriel Poston, again. You know, the first Black Dean of the Faculty in a mostly very white institution. LG: And white community. PR: And white community. In order to get her hair cut she had to go to Glens Falls … to get her hair done. There aren’t any men or women hair stylists in the Saratoga area who know how to cut or style African American hair. When Muriel visited Skidmore, she asked to meet with faculty of color. Chuck Joseph, then Dean of the Faculty, asked me that morning to put together a group to meet with her in the afternoon. There were five or six of us in the room. One of the first things she did as Dean was to ask chairs and program directors to look at their hiring processes, to interrogate whether it was a friendly hiring process or, whether that hiring process was useful in order to attract faculty of color. We had never been asked to include diversity into our hiring processes. PR: And, … but things really got working when Beau became Dean. SB: Beau? �PR: Breslin. Because Muriel could only take it so far and she was in the office for five years only. Right? As Assistant Dean of the First-Year Experience, Beau was part of Muriel’s staff and part of the discussions we frequently had on diversity. So when he became Dean, he embraced diversity as one of his agendas. And then when he became VPAA and Dean of the Faculty, he appointed me as Associate Dean for Diversity. And we hired Pat Romney Associates, in order to streamline across departments, the hiring process. Uh, there was a lot of screaming and shouting [laughs], “We don’t want to do it this way. We’ve always done it this other way. Why do have to do this?” and Beau was firm. I mean, the success of the diversity agenda is not necessarily mine. I would never have been able to do anything as Associate Dean without the Dean really pushing for it. And Phil also was very much on boar; it became a priority for him. LG: Phil PR: Phil Glotzbach, the President. There were budgetary implications. Pat Romney came to campus twice a year to run a workshop on diverse hiring that began with “this is the way that the ad needs to be written. The diversity statement is not at the end, the diversity statement is in the middle.” I mean, things like that. Because diversity is not an afterthought. Faculty of color, domestic faculty of color are very attuned to how the ads read. The ad says a lot about how serious the institution is in terms of hiring faculty of color. I was in charge of the process, in terms of making sure that every single ad was appropriately written, that it followed the guidelines; there were also protocols regarding the selection of finalists, for the campus visits that every department needed to follow. I was very passionate about this work. It felt so meaningful. I worked very hard with departments and programs and it was a job that I loved and it was successful. I mean, look at the diversity of the �faculty now. It’s huge! And so … but if it hadn’t been, early for Muriel, next for Beau, my interest would have been just my interest, but it would of not have translated in real changes for the Institution. LG: Are there other things that we haven’t covered that we should talk about your career? When did you retire from Skidmore? PR: It’s been five years, so I’ll …[laughs] No, it’s in 2015. But really, I retired in 2016. What happened is, I was due a sabbatical which delayed by retirement date. It was time. Seven years in the DOF, it was time. And I had to choose. You both know this well … as interesting as the work is, it becomes a chore, and the chore for me were the CAPT cases particularly having to read the student teaching evaluations. One year there was a candidate in the dance department where most faculty teach only one and two credit classes. That year I read thousands of student evals. And I knew that the coming cohorts would be larger. We had been hiring over ten new faculty per year: too many evaluations. I just couldn’t do it again. It’s like, “Why did you retire from the English Department, or History, or you name the department?” “I don’t want to read another composition or essay.” Exactly that. So it was time for somebody else to do it. And, … so seven years was a long time. How long were you in the DOF? SB: Four PR: Four, yeah. LG: So, what have you been doing since you retired? PR: Oh, depending on the time of the year. I go to Chile for three or four months or sometimes twice in one year. I help my sister in her restaurant in Santiago. When I am there she can take a vacation; I run her restaurant for �her; it’s a lot of work but also great fun. Most of the time we work side by side which I really enjoy. I’ve lived for 40 years in the United States, and one of the things that I decided when I retired was that I wanted to go back to Chile a lot to visit my sisters, my family. And, I’ve done that. Also I still have a number of good friends I have a dual identity. LG: Friends here or in Chile? PR: In both places but I meant in Chile. Many of them are school friends. The classes were small we made life-long friendships. With four or five, we’ve been friends for what, 67 years? I also read a lot and I do some volunteering, particularly in the summer for the Backstretch at the horse racing track. A large number of the backstretch workers are Latin American. I’ve also taught English there also, in the summer. LG: As a second language? PR: As a second language. Umm, I also play golf. I love the game; I started playing golf with my father when I was 12. LG: Oh? PR: He was a sports person so as he grew older, he gave up tennis for golf. I started playing it again here in the US after not playing it for about 15 years. It brings really good memories from my late childhood and as a young adult in Viña del Mar. When I retired, I first thought that I would complete some research projects that were interrupted by the time I was in the administration. But after a bit I thought: what’s the point? Who will read what I write? �LG: You’ve turned the page. PR: Yeah, I mean, I’d rather read than write. Juan Carlos taught me that. You know, at some point he said, “I’m done with research. I don’t want to write any more, I want to read.” And that makes sense to me now. It didn’t then but it makes sense to me now. LG: Now of course you are on the board of the … PR: Of course, yeah, well, yeah, and I was on the film board when the Film Forum existed, and then you invited me to be on the board of the Saratoga Chamber Players, and that’s been great. And I work in my yard, my garden, which is my passion. [laughs] LG: And how does your garden grow? PR: Oh wow. It does sure grow, when… LG: This time of year. PR: Yeah, this time of year. LG: Anything else we should cover? SB: Nope. LG: Good? PR: Good? Ok. LG: Alright. Thank you sooo, so much. PR: Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. END � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patricia Rubio Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:21 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit October 24, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Patricia Rubio Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 14, 2021 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Patricia Rubio began her career at Skidmore in 1983 after graduating from Valparaiso University in Chile and, after arrival at Skidmore, her PhD at the University of Alberta in Canada. She filled many roles at Skidmore - coordinator of the self-instructional language program, Director of Women’s Studies, Chair of the Department of Foreign Languages & Literatures, and Associate Dean of the Faculty. Since retirement in 2016 she has helped run her sister’s restaurant in Chile, taught ESL to backstretch workers at the Saratoga track, played a great deal of golf and serves as chair of the board of the Saratoga Chamber Players. In this interview she also discusses the complexity of the self-instructional language program, changes in the Women’s Studies program and its evolution to a full major, the influence of Dean of Faulty Phyllis Roth, her work with Dean Muriel Poston, and issues of diversity. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Beau Breslin Diversity Emigration to U.S. Latino Students Latino Studies Muriel Poston Phil Glotzbach Phyllis Roth Self-Instructional Languages Spanish American Literature Women's Studies https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2ba0679abf67fb682a168d32da1c1dcd.mp4 5d9db19f1eca0fb24a2f6736ec12fc93 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/5f45479bcb553d9e03e7b3a8f7208453.pdf ef8ecb59a5f5aadd2e708721c858d5e8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Justin Rizzi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Perreault Location The location of the interview Zoom (Saratoga County) Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Justin Rizzi Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 10/5/2021 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Perreault Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 22, 2021 Description An account of the resource Paul Perreault, the historian of the town of Malta, gives a general interview of the town's history and how Malta fits into the greater history of Saratoga County. Listen to 9:52 for a description of Malta's formation and foundation, 14:30 and 40:00 for discussion about the famous Malta Rocket Test Station, 32:00 for information about the community of Round Lake, 22:00 and 42:00 for depictions of the importances of the Luther Forest, and 19:43 for a fascinating little-told story about Elmer Ellsworth, the first Union officer killed in the Civil War, born in none other than Malta, New York. Language A language of the resource english https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/994f7263d69d49cba4362038c514dadb.jpg bda11e122e7641e9b4efcf4e1efbe898 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/29b306a9af46b5d70117b51c547e7531.mp3 6415d4862fbeb549c899184f2428345c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Flurry Festival Description An account of the resource The Flurry Festival is a three day music and dance Festival that takes place in Saratoga Springs in February. The festival holds workshops, performances, dances, and jam sessions in the city center and throughout the town. The Flurry first started as a dance festival for contra dancing but has expanded to musicians and spans all genres of music and dance as well as encompassing family friendly events such as storytelling. Language A language of the resource English Subject The topic of the resource The Flurry Festival Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Davies, Clara-Sophia Daly, Dustin Foote, Amanda Muir, Tess Olcott, Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wav file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Amanda Muir Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Rosenberg Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data digital audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 61 minutes Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Amanda Muir Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 6/12/2016 Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 00:00:00 Introductions. 00:00:52 Flurry hosted Iraq war protests in 2003 and 1989. 00:01:30 Founding of the Flurry Festival in Guilderland, New York, held at Westmere Elementary School 00:05:05 First year of the Flurry Dance Festival was met with a snowstorm. 00:06:12 Drawing in crowds by having good callers, musicians, and word of mouth. Held a dawn dance. 00:08:20 The importance of the president’s day weekend in the Flurry festival 00:10:30 Best memory was watching the children have fun dancing. Wanted more family activities 00:12:00 Inspired by music workshops and jamming of Ashokan camp and worked to incorporate this aspect 00:13:00 Starting the final jam performance at the end of the festival. 00:15:16 Creating the festival name and the impact it had with non dancing participants 00:17:20 Introduction of concerts into the festival 00:18:12 Procrastinating on creating the program, starting committee meetings late. 00:18:50 Influence of the Old Songs Festival and Nancy Gretta in the creation of the Flurry Festival 00:20:00 Difficulty organizing the first Flurry festival with Old Songs Committee members 00:23:45 Adding workshops and dances created difficulty in choosing and organizing 00:25:25 Rising tensions with the school because of wear and tear on soccer field and floor wear as well as cleanup 00:26:43 Adding more committees as jobs were needed 00:27:26 Moved festival at last minute because a broken pipe destroyed the multi-room. Hurried to find a new location Joe Dalton, leader of the Saratoga chamber of commerce, suggested the Saratoga City Center, Saratoga music hall and Skidmore College. 00:29:55 Dislike of the hard floors of the City Center. Had no other options and made due 00:31:06 Success of location, excluding Skidmore College 00:32:21 Difficulty with parking and so used a shuttle 00:33:06 Saratoga downtown changed perspective of hosting dances at schools to city centers. 00:34:10 Working with the Hilton manager on booking rooms the first few years 00:36:05 Deciding to stay in Saratoga 00:36:20 Creation of a video of the festival was made in 1992 00:36:55 Heaviest snowstorm the festival had almost caused the event to fold if not for the community 00:38:25 Decided to get married at the Festival in 1992 and wore a tuxedo. Jim Greggory, created a dance to honor him and his new wife 00:40:54 Informing everyone when the festival moved suddenly to Saratoga Springs 4 weeks away from the day 00:42:23 Finding a welcoming community in Saratoga Springs 00:44:03 Expanding awareness of the Flurry, especially with Mae Banner from the Saratogian 00:46:41 Considering moving to Saratoga 00:47:15 Attempting to date while organizing the Flurry Festival 00:51:00 Effecting relationships with performers 00:52:19 Reflecting on all of his goals being accomplished in bringing a world together 00:55:12 Commenting on the lack of diversity of color 00:56:28 Switching pianos across town 00:57:42 Still getting nervous feelings opening night. 00:59:10 Love of seeing children, jamming, and diversity of offerings 01:00:05 Working on keeping Saratoga Music Hall from becoming court space 01:00:50 End Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Rosenberg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/2/2016 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS113A: Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College Description An account of the resource Interview with Paul Rosenberg, founder of the Flurry Festival and director of programs until 2005. Paul discusses the Festival's beginnings at an elementary school and the move to the City Center in Saratoga Springs. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amanda Muir Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wav file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 12/2/2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Memory Project creator dance director Flurry music oral history programs The Flurry Festival https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/021dc1b39de2d620b04982b05470b5a0.jpg be1e85aa1eec54050c9a5c0040ee3def https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c848b93c188138981c4e52bf31672b5f.m4a d76b150479d05d6a31538feaeb31dfe7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4ac52cf5a10c10aa0efd7ad0152c4a47.pdf 4eaefd00ff67e99f4ccc557f82f59d76 PDF Text Text Interview with Penny Jolly by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, January 17th, 2025. LYNNE GELBER: It's January 17th, 2025, and I'm here with Sue Bender to interview Penny Jolly. SUE BENDER: Your name. LG: This is Lynne Gelber. And Penny, why don't we start by asking you where you grew up and a little bit about your background. PENNY JOLLY: Well, I grew up in Larchmont/Mamaroneck, New York, which is part of the suburbs of New York City. My dad was an American history teacher at the Mamaroneck High School. So, I grew up in a very nice environment. I would have to say a good school system. We lived in a small apartment. We didn't have a house, unfortunately. But it was a very, very good childhood. And my parents would take me down to New York City. I also had a sister, Susan. Or have a sister, Susan. And we would all go down to the Museum of Natural History. And I remember saying to my dad, "No, no, I want to go to the Museum of Natural History," on a day when he wanted to go the art museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And I said, "No, no. I don't want to go see art. I want to go to the Museum of Natural History, and I want to go see Egypt." And he said, "Oh, Egypt is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art." So that convinced me to go. And that was a formative visit, I have to say. I'm not sure how old I was. I would guess 12, 11, something like that. But that was wonderful. And then I started going to the Metropolitan Museum of Art when I would take the train down into New York City, in high school and things like that. So that presaged my future. LG: What was it about Egypt that drew you? PJ: I'm not sure. I just think I found it so interesting. It was so different. And of course, there were mummies. I was a kid. That certainly drew me in. But I have to say, what finally drew me in even further was the Cloisters Museum, which is the medieval branch of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. My parents and I had tried to get there several times and, I don't know, I don't know if we couldn't find parking or it was closed and we thought it was open. There were several problems. And finally, my French, my AP French class, when I was a senior in high school, was doing a trip there because we'd been reading some medieval French writing, and I just loved the Cloisters. I just felt so at home in those cavernous halls and the artwork and everything. So, I remember when I was being interviewed to go to college, I went to Oberlin College, he asked me, "Well, what are you really interested in?" I remember saying, "The ancient classical world, ancient Egypt, medieval..." So, all this old stuff. And he was sort of startled. He said, "People don't usually say that. That's an unusual answer." And sure enough, I got into Oberlin and I couldn't believe it. They had a course in ancient architecture. They had a course, two semesters of medieval sculpture. And I was in heaven. So, I was headed on my pathway to become an art historian, clearly. Page 1 of 17 �LG: Early on. PJ: Yeah, and it was museums that did it. LG: And then you went on for graduate work? PJ: Yes. After graduating from Oberlin in 1969 with an art history major, honors in art history, I went to the University of Pennsylvania. They had given me a full scholarship and I was thrilled because at that point I was married and had a husband who needed to go to med school. So that was the other thing. We had to balance off the big cities where both of us got in with a reasonable amount of money or something. So, Penn was the clear place to go and it was a good choice. So, I went there and I got my master's and I got my PhD and I continued to work in medieval and Renaissance art, as well as early Christian art. It was terrific. Grad school always has its problems, so I probably won't mutter too much about them. Other than things like, on Friday afternoons, the all-male faculty, which of course it was all male, would go to this bar on the corner. I forget what it was called. And they would invite the male students to go with them and we females were never invited. So, the males would come out of the meeting calling everybody by their first names and we would be saying, "Dr. Mynot, Dr. Watson." And they'd be Paul and stuff to them. So, I won't grouse about that, but there was lots of gender stuff that was really irritating. On the other hand, I think I finished my dissertation and got a job before anybody else. LG: Where? PJ: At Skidmore. Yeah. I applied for a variety of jobs and I actually had several offers. But George and I... George came up with me to Saratoga Springs. We had to drive from Philadelphia. And he came with me. Let me think for a second. Yeah. At that point, I was pregnant. LG: What year was this now? PJ: Maybe … This would have been right after 1969... Oh, wait. For Skidmore, it would have been 1976. 1976, right, I started at Skidmore. So anyway, he came with me to the interview just to see what was going on and help with the driving and stuff. We had a daughter already at that point, and so he took care of her while I was doing the whole interview process. And when we finished the interview, we just looked at each other and said, yeah, this is the kind of environment we wanted. A Liberal Arts college, not a big bustling city university. We loved the idea that the Adirondacks are there. We loved the idea of bringing children up in a town like this. And I never thought I'd live on a street like this with interesting, different, lovely houses lined up with a yard. We were able to buy a house, and I think that was not because of my salary which was nothing. $11,000 was my salary at that point. But I think the promise of him being a doctor, the bank was very happy to finance our mortgage. I'm sure if he hadn't been a doctor, they never would have, because we had no money, or very little money at that point. Page 2 of 17 �So, George was done with his residency, internship and residency, and it was a perfect moment for us to come. And we both have loved living in Saratoga Springs. Yeah. Been a great place. And Skidmore's been a great place. LG: So, when you first came, what were you teaching? PJ: Do you mean in terms of courses? LG: Yes. PJ: Let's see. My first semester, I taught Romanesque Gothic art. Art and architecture. No. Maybe I started with Early Christian. Well, it's hard to know. One semester or the other. Otherwise, it was Byzantine, Early Christian art. I think it was Byzantine and Early Christian art. And I was teaching the Survey of Art History, where we shared giving the lectures over two semesters, and then had six discussion groups, three each semester. And then I was teaching, I think, a Renaissance course. It was a lot. I'd never taught any of those courses, except, I had participated in a survey with other people. So, there was a lot of prep that year. LG: Was the art history department a separate department at that point? PJ: No. And that was certainly a point of friction for us, the art historians. We were the Art Department, but that included about, I'd say, 16 tenure lines in studio art, plus quite a few part-timers, and included five art historians. So, we felt very outvoted about things. Our department meetings were all about studio art. Everything was about studio art. So, there were hostilities, but on the other hand, they were very good friends too, among the art people, and some wonderful artists who were good to see. But that was a struggle for a number of years, and we finally, gosh, I don't remember what year it was, but we finally were able to establish our own Department of Art History, separate from the Department of Art. We got a name change. First, it was the Department of Art and Art History. So, we had that for a while as a compromise: but then we really got to be our own department. LG: And who was the chair at the time? PJ: When I came, it was Earl Pardon and then it was Peter Baruzzi. And that took up quite a few of the early years. LG: And as a separate art history department, who was the chair? PJ: The first chair was Katie Hauser. I was Director of Art History. That was another thing, a job they established back when we were complaining about things and still all together. So, I was Director of Art History for nine years or something, which was very chair-like, but not with all the authority of the chair. Page 3 of 17 �LG: So, what were the responsibilities? PJ: Well, setting up the schedule, dealing with students, giving permissions, running hiring. It was a lot of the tasks of the chair, but I wasn't the one who went to the dean, necessarily, and said, "We want to hire so-and-so," and negotiate a salary. The chair negotiated the salary and stuff. LG: Were you the one who reached out to other groups outside of the department to work with them? PJ: I think I really did a lot in that sense. My colleagues in art history tended to be, I wouldn't say exactly a shyer bunch, but they stuck to their own stuff a lot more. And that's not a 100% true. But I was interested in reaching out to the other medievalists, the other people who taught Renaissance courses. For a while we were interested in setting up a Renaissance studies program. And that eventually did not happen, but that was, again, an interdisciplinary reach. Right from the beginning, I was involved in LS, liberal studies program. Not the initialLG: With your own course, or? PJ: In several ways. I wasn't in the summer group that I believe basically put LS1 and the LS program together, but I joined them in the fall. So I was on the committee that was creating LS, and then I taught in LS1 for quite a few years. I also had an LS2 course on Italy. Art and Italy, Art and Culture in Italy. I don't remember what I called it. And then, later, I had other LS courses about gender in the Renaissance and different things. So, I was very supportive. I was the first chair... When we had a committee, an LS committee, I was on it and I was the first chair of it. So that was a lot of engagement. LG: So as an LS participant, liberal studies participant, you had your own section, discussion section, plus youPJ: Yes. We had two, at least. Maybe even three. LG: You individually? PJ: Yeah. Yeah, I think two discussion groups. LG: And then you would be a lecturer for the general? PJ: Not everybody got to lecture, but I did. In fact, a number of years, I did two lectures. One on history because I guess we didn't have a historian, or the historian didn't want to do it or something. So, I did a lecture about history. I did another one about art... Creativity, I think it was called. I think every year I taught in it, I gave at least one lecture. Now, the lectures were big. You did it twice and you had half of the incoming class in each time. So those were in the theater. Those were held in the theater. So that was always a little Page 4 of 17 �daunting. But I had already been lecturing to the art history survey, which at that point had 125 people in it. So, I wasn't totally put off by a larger audience. Can I say, the best thing about LS was meeting weekly with the faculty. It was fabulous. I knew about Freud, for example, but I don't think I'd ever really read Freud in, well, I'm not reading him in German, but in the English translation, the real text. And so there I am. I'm reading Freud and I'm learning so much more. LG: And who was it that was presenting Freud? PJ: Oh, gosh. Terry Diggory, maybe. I'm not sure. SB: Sheldon? PJ: Well, Sheldon gave a wonderful lecture about personality and things, but I don't think he talked much about... Maybe he talked about Freud. I'm sorry. But in any case, it was great hearing the other faculty lecturers doing the readings. And when it came to a topic like Freud, where I didn't feel I knew all that much, I'm doing all this extra reading on Freud. So, I learned an enormous amount from doing LS1. And I also learned lecture techniques because I'd noticed something that worked really, really well, and I'd try to think, "Okay, I could do that." LG: Like what, for example? PJ: I don't know. Maybe... Boy, that's tough to remember. Probably the person, actually, who influenced me the most was not in LS. It was James Kettlewell. And he was just willing to really give information out, give details. He was really full of interesting information. But I can't say I remember what, but I remember observing people. Maybe noticing more what doesn't work. It was a terrific learning experience. And let's see. If I came in '76... Is that right? I'm trying to think when we started the LS program. Yeah. It was right about then. Well, I was there right at the beginning of LS. SB: Early '80s. Early '80s. PJ: Okay, early '80s. SB: Yeah. PJ: Okay. That makes sense to me. I'd been at Skidmore a few years, but I don't think I was tenured or anything yet. I really enjoyed my fellow faculty. And of course, I got to know people in other departments, whom I otherwise would not have. I think that was probably the greatest value of LS, liberal studies. And then, of course, the courses were interdisciplinary, which was great as far as I was concerned. Because when you're looking at images, at paintings, and sculpture, and structures, buildings, the context matters so much. The patron matters, the historical time period, the cultural sense of the time, all of those things feed into the work. And so Page 5 of 17 �having courses that encouraged me to round out the edges of my courses was great. And again, it affected everything I was teaching, not just the LS courses. LG: What role did the Tang play in your area? PJ: That was great. And again, I was on the Tang, I don't know if it was a taskforce or whatever. I was on the committee that created the Tang. So, there we are again. Long meetings. Endless meetings. LG: With whom? Do you remember? PJ: Tad Kuroda led them. Terry Diggory, wonderful Terry, was a super source for everybody in LS. Sheldon maybe was right there from the beginning. I think he probably was. Sheldon Solomon. That's, for the moment, what I'm remembering. Jim Kehl in English was very early a supporter of LS. SB: Now we're talking Tang. PJ: Tang. Oh, God. I'm sorry. SB: Yeah. PJ: So that was Tad Kuroda. That was Terry also. I'm sorry. So anyway, we had meetings and we ended up hiring. And we ended up, really, setting up the architect... Interviewing architects. We had to decide on that, what kind of things we wanted in the building. It was a lot of very interesting work. But those of us who were museum people, who were... [inaudible 00:18:39] now. Who were museum people, we were very engaged with the Tang. And then, I think it added enormously to our classes, our courses. In my parts for the survey of art history, I would try to engage the Tang. And there were some really neat ways. Boy, that dates me, doesn't it? Neat. There were some really neat ways that one could make use of contemporary art from the Tang, even when talking about medieval art or Renaissance art or something like that. LG: Did you bring your classes to the Tang to view and discuss the art? PJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then... Exactly. And we would sometimes tour the shows together or have the curator tour the show with us. And we decided to do our discussion groups at the Tang. There were two classrooms there, one of which was a smaller seminar size. So, we began doing that, again, just to get the students into the Tang and hope that they didn't feel like, "Oh, that's on the other side of campus. We don't go way over there." So, they had to come there at least once a week. Our lectures remained over in Gannett or in Emerson. But yeah, students made good use. And of course, we began having internships, having students do their work, study at the Tang. There were fellowships that were established Page 6 of 17 �for students working at the Tang. So, it was a great opportunity for those interested in museum work. And quite a few of our students have gone on in museum work. LG: Were you involved in the hiring of the early director? PJ: John Weber. I think I was. I can't remember how directly, but we did a lot of interviewing of architects and people. I think we interviewed the directors as well. That was a big job, but what a wonderful addition for Skidmore to have the Tang. LG: Did you serve on any college committees? PJ: I think I served on just about every college committee at least once, if not more. Yes. In terms of... Do you want to know special ones, or? LG: Yes. Things that made an impact on you. PJ: Yeah. Well, I think the one that was the most satisfying has to have been CAPT. Working on CAPTLG: Appointments, promotion, and tenure. PJ: Yes, thank you. LG: And sabbaticals. PJ: And sabbaticals too, at that point. It really allowed you to admire your incoming faculty when you saw what they were publishing, what they were doing, what their backgrounds were, as people came up for tenure. There were some very difficult decisions. I'm still haunted. Just the other day I was thinking about this. I'm still haunted by my vote on one decision where I probably should have gone the other way. But maybe that's the only one I feel that way about. But our work was taken so seriously by the people on the committee, as well as by the administration. You really felt like you were part of the important things going on. Should we give this person tenure? Should this person be rehired? How do we resolve this problem? How do we talk to the dean about this or that? And it was wonderful. And I was chair for a year, and that was tremendously satisfying. Really satisfying. It was the year we first had 21 people up or 18 people up. It was an enormous number, so I worked out a system of how we would do it, and it worked really well. I don't know if CAPT still uses my system, but... I think CAPT has changed a lot over the years. But I felt very proud of my ability to lead people in a way that I thought was fair and to negotiate with the Dean of Faculty about things. So that was interesting. But committees like CAFR were important. SB: Academic freedom. Page 7 of 17 �PJ: Academic freedom, sorry. Committee on Academic Freedom & Rights. I was most always on the library committee, because my office was in the library, so I felt I had a really vested interest in knowing what the library was doing. That was a great committee. It almost never met. But with the LS1 committee work and everything, I was always, always doing committee work. LG: Penny, I'm curious to know what kinds of changes over the course of your tenure did you perceive? PJ: I think for me, the biggest change I feel is the relationship of the faculty to the faculty, and the faculty to the administration. LG: For example? PJ: Well, I know this just sounds like rosy-eyed nostalgia, but honestly, when I first came and for those first, at least, I don't know, 15, 20 years, I don't want to use the word family because that's just too trite-sounding here, but we were a cooperative group looking at similar goals. LG: You're talking about faculty? PJ: Faculty. LG: Faculty. PJ: Yes, talking about the faculty here. We were comfortable, mostly, with each other. I mean, there were always some wingnuts, shall I say. But on the whole, we knew people in other departments. You'd serve on a committee and you'd meet the new psychology professor. You'd meet the art professor you didn't know real well. You'd spend time with them. And you would work together on those committees. We would have faculty meetings and largely people came to them, I think. I don't remember it being empty. It was really very crowded. And then we'd have a reception afterword with good food and good wine, and people would stay for it. Now, I know people say today, "Well, I have children. The child center closes at 5:00." And my thought is, "Yeah, I didn't even have a child center," a daycare center. In fact, that was part of women's studies. We started it and I was one of the co-chairs a couple of years in a row, where we really worked on establishing the daycare center. LG: With whom did you work on that? PJ: I'm sorry? LG: With whom did you work on that? Page 8 of 17 �PJ: Fran Hoffmann was the leader. She was number one on that. Susan Kress, Mary Lynn. Those of us particularly who had children, really. We didn't have the advantage of it, but we really wanted to. And of course, that's another whole thing, it’s that I had a baby on day three of my first year teaching at Skidmore in September of '76. And that's another one. I mean, if I can segue into that and I'll come back to changes, but this is a change too. I had various medical problems when I was in grad school and I was basically told, "If you ever want to have children, you better start now." So, we were trying to have a child for a number of years and finally became pregnant. And, of course, it was just when I was job searching and interviewing. And sure enough, I finally did get pregnant, and Joe, Joseph Howell Jolly, was born September 17th, 1976. Well, the semester started, that was a Friday, started on Wednesday the 13th. And this was my first job. I had multiple classes to teach. When I went to the chair of my department, he looked at me and saw me very pregnant and laughed. And just looked me up and down and laughed. He had no suggestions for me about anything. So, I talked a little bit to... Probably to James Kettlewell, maybe Joan Sigfried, Harry Gaugh. I don't know. I at least let them all know I was pregnant. And nobody had any suggestions for me. Nobody said anything like, "Why don't you take a few days off." Or, "I'll cover your discussion groups for you." Or, "It's okay to cancel a class. Let the students know and you can make it up later." Nobody gave me any suggestion of what to do. And I remember saying, "Well, my husband is going to stay home. He's a doctor. He'll stay home and take care of the newborn baby during the day, so that will take care of it." And that is what George did. He had a gruesome schedule where he taught 12... Rather, he worked in emergency room 12 hours overnight, a 12-hour shift during the week, and then two 12-hour shifts on the weekend when I was home. So, he was working at the emergency room while I was teaching. And we were both zonked and exhausted, but we survived. But I remember just nobody being any help whatsoever. And it just so amazed me, in my department, the women I heard from were in English. Susan Kress, Mary Lynn in American studies. All those people were saying, "How are you doing?" The secretary of the Art Department, when she said there was a meeting that next Friday, so Joe would have been a week old, and I said to her, "I am so tired. I just don't know I can come." And she said, "You go home. You get some time in bed. You don't need to come to the faculty meeting." LG: And who was this? PJ: It wasn't Denise Hughs yet. Oh, who was it? I can't think right now. At any rate, that was so nice of her. So, I went home. She told me to go home. That it was all right. But see, I didn't know it was all right to miss the faculty meeting, and I needed people to say I could have canceled a class. I didn't. I think I put one class off until the next day, and it was a small class and the students were able to do it the next day. And that was a great help. It Page 9 of 17 �was an evening class. By that time, I just needed to get into bed. So yeah, I had a crummy schedule. That was 6:30 to 8:00 o'clock or something. So, we did it the next day. But that was weird. But my larger experience at Skidmore was that people were really helpful. And it was people in other departments than my own department, quite honestly. James Kettlewell was a dear, a sweetheart, and would have done really anything I asked. But he was so involved in so many things and so scattered, it was hard to ask him to do things. Although, he did dig my car out one day from the snow, which I totally appreciated. It was totally kind of him to do that. But back to the question about changes. It felt more like a family. People communicated with each other. They talked with each other. We didn't have e-mail, so we talked. We'd pick up the phone if we needed to talk to someone. Maybe that's one of the big, big differences. It felt we had a common purpose. We cared about the students. We wanted to do things well. We talked about difficulties. The women's studies group was absolutely wonderful. I couldn't join it at first because I had this newborn baby and barely had a... And an older child. My daughter, Jenny, was five at that point and she was going to kindergarten for half a day. So, there was a lot of negotiation of home care, and George, and then other people, and stuff. But women's studies, when I had enough time to finally meet at the meetings, was just great. They were so supportive. We talked about real things like childcare. So, I became very involved with women's studies. They were just wonderful. And there were some men involved. I also did the Writing Across the Curriculum program. And again, I got to know people in the English department, Phil... What's his name? Phil... LG: Boshoff? SB: Boshoff? PJ: Boshoff. Thank you. He was running that. And a wonderful woman... Well, in any case, Susan Kress was involved again, Phyllis Roth, all those great leaders, later leaders or current. Well, not current today, but leaders in their own departments and in women's studies, those great people. LG: What about the relationship with the administration? PJ: It seemed to me much friendlier, much more open, much more that you could go and talk to people. And they'd be there after the faculty meeting. So, you could walk up to the president. There were receptions. LG: And who was the president at the time? PJ: When I came, it was Joe Palamountain. And when he saw me pregnant at the opening of my first semester, he also looked me up and down and rather laughed. And I thought, "Great." But any rate, but he accepted me. It was fine. Page 10 of 17 �Oh, and by the way, Joe was born later that afternoon on Friday. Another funny part of that story is that at the end of class, the second or third discussion group, one of the students said to me, "Professor, can I come and talk to you about some things?" And I looked at my watch and I said, "I can't. I have to go to the hospital now. My husband's picking me up because I'm going to have my baby." And I did. I had it at 5:10 that afternoon. I was teaching until 12:00, noon. So, it was all pretty crazy, but George was pretty supportive and that meant everything, so... Anyway. LG: Can you talk a little bit about your experience with the development of women's studies as a curricular program? PJ: Oh, yeah. It took some doing with the curriculum committee, although we women had infiltrated a lot of these organizations. The dean was supportive. That was Eric Weller. So, I remember him in general being supportive of women's studies. But there were others on campus who were less so, for sure. And we wanted things like, I think this was now into the '80s, things like gender-free language in the reports of the board of trustees and all official documents and things. And we got some pushback from various faculty in different departments that that was silly, we didn't need to do that. But we got it through. At this point, if you were the director or co-director of women's studies, you didn't get any time off, or any kind of credit or anything. It was very, very frustrating. But eventually, we got a position of the, probably Director of Women's Studies, I guess it was. And we hired Mary Stange as the first director, I think. Yeah, I think she was the first. So, we were in pretty good shape with the administration, I would say. And that helped a lot. We began teaching courses. We realized we had to have an intro, 101-kind of course for Women's Studies. And we put that together and we had to twist department chair's arms to let so-and-so free to teach that course, because then they weren't teaching their sociology or whatever course. Sociologists were very supportive. And it was a great department. Psychology was real supportive. History. Languages even. So, we had people who were really interested and really the program began to grow. And we got good students and good enrollments. And we established a lecture series, the Coburn Lecture series. We really became a real department, a real presence. LG: And that lecture series was meant to do what? PJ: To publicly have lectures about gender issues. I remember a wonderful one talking about medicine and gender issues. About how all the research on heart attacks and on this and on that and on that were done on male studies. There were no women included in the studies. And they began to realize, "Wow. There are women too." And women needed to be in the heart attack studies as well, because their experiences could be a little different. I don't remember who gave that lecture, but it really was eye-opening. I thought it was terrific. LG: Now, you mentioned that at first it felt like a family. Page 11 of 17 �PJ: Yeah. LG: How did it evolve? PJ: It's evolved in the last, maybe, I don't know, 20 years, 15 years, where it seems to me the faculty are just really disgruntled. I think morale is low and it wasn't quite so low back in the earlier days. I think they just feel disgruntled about maybe salaries. Although salaries have taken some improvement, thank heavens. About time. They don't want to stay. People don't want to be at meetings. I mean, the committee meetings used to be at 5:00 o'clock, 5:30. It wasn't easy for any of us, but that's when we had time to do committee meetings. Or maybe at 8:00 o'clock. And I don't know. People began just complaining and say they couldn't do that or they wouldn't do that. How are you going to get a committee of eight people together in the middle of the afternoon or the middle of the day? So, I see faculty as disgruntled. LG: Did this involve separation from administration in some way? PJ: Well, we had a wonderful, wonderful president, David Porter. Who was followed by a president that was not at all well-liked and really had some problems. I was on CAPT during that person and it was not good. LG: And that person was? PJ: Jamienne Studley. Yeah. So, there was real issues with her. I don't recall how long she stayed. Five years, maybe? Four years? I don't know. But she finally did leave and that was to the better. But again, we got in a chair, rather a president, I don't know. I have mixed feelings about him, John Berman. Maybe okay. SB: Dean. PJ: Oh, he was dean of faculty. I'm sorry. Yes, we needed a new dean. Who came after Jamie? Who was next? SB: Phil. LG: Phil. PJ: Phil. Okay. LG: Phil. Phil Glotzbach. PJ: Phil. And I think he settled things down in a lot of ways, which was good, which was helpful. That's right, I was on CAPT and we hired Phil, as I think about it. Right? But I think they're more disgruntled. I think there's more busywork. I think there's a ridiculous amount of busywork. And that seems to be true in the world at large. Filling Page 12 of 17 �out papers and doing things. E-mail. I have such mixed feelings about e-mail. It was great to handle certain things with students via e-mail. Absolutely fabulous. It really opened us up. I mean, when I came to Skidmore, what you could do would be mimeograph a note. And by the way, in our department when I came, studio art was still on the old campus downtown and that's where the secretary was. So, if the art historians needed something from the secretary, we had to drive downtown or bicycle downtown, and then come back up to campus. It was so nice when... Oh, what department was it? Math, I think. I think it was Mark who... Well, someone in math said to me, "You can use our mimeo machine when you need to mimeograph something for the faculty. You don't have to drive downtown to use the art department mimeograph." I mean, that was likeLG: You had to have a card or something? Or something special to use it? PJ: No, it was just in the secretary's office. Yeah. It was just controlled. So, I began doing my committee mimeos and student mimeos and things. Turning those out in the math department, thank heavens. So, any rate, they were... I don't know. The administration just didn't feel as close to us. It didn't feel that we were as united as we used to be. But I largely feel it was the faculty that changed. And they were disgruntled, and it's true our salaries were low. LG: Penny, what have you been doing since you retired and what year did you retire? PJ: Okay. I retired in spring. LG: Okay. Some more of your highlights? PJ: Oh, there's a bunch of them. Let me just start by saying, I really enjoyed all my years, 42 or 43 years, whatever it was. Yes, because I resigned, or I retired in 2019. The spring semester, 2019. So that was 43 years. I really enjoyed it on the whole of the students. I loved preparing lectures. I love preparing classes and discussion groups. I really enjoyed it. So, on the one hand I have to say, the job was a highlight. But more specifically, I think there were several things that really stand out. For instance, back to women's studies, which was so important for me in so many ways. I'm very proud of the daycare center being set up. Now, I was not the primary mover. Fran Hoffmann really was the person who worked more on that than anyone else. But I was involved in supporting that, involved in getting it established. I worked on it with her and others. And that was just such a wonderful addition to Skidmore. And for all of us older faculty who'd had kids and had not had the pleasure of a daycare center, this felt enormous. I think another enormous highlight has to do with the Tang. John Weber really wanted the faculty to be curating interdisciplinary exhibits. And I went to him after one of our meetings [inaudible 00:43:34] [about exhibits] where he was asking for these and saying he needed them. And I said, "I've been thinking a lot about hair in the Renaissance lately. Page 13 of 17 �The meaning of hair. What do you think about hair as a topic?" And he practically hit the ceiling in joy. He was just really excited. John was a great guy, John Weber. And so, I began thinking more about it and thinking, "This would really be fun." And I'm not always a team player. I like control. I think the idea from John would have been that I would have multiple people working with me on the show. Someone from biology, the biology of hair. And someone from, I don't know, whatever. But I didn't really want that. I wanted to be in charge. I wanted my show. So, I began working on it and showing John what I had, and it really was coming together. They began putting in the loan requests and all the things. And I feel like that was very successful. I also was adamant that I wanted the catalog to be at the show's opening. I think it is still the only show the Tang has put on where the catalog was available when the show was available. I just said, "I want these essays." So, I also edited a book of essays for the Tang. I wrote, I think, I don't know, four or five of them, but then I did involve people from other parts of the college in writing essays. So, there's some really nice ones there. Gerry Erchak, Amelia... In my own department, Amelia... Not Rosner. Well, I'm sorry, Amelia. I'm blanking on your last name right now. But several people who wrote really terrific essays, Susan Walzer, and things. And I think that show was a great success. I still have people coming up to me and saying, "Aren't you the person who did that hair show at the Tang?" And I still get e-mails from people asking me questions about hair. I still get e-mails asking me to do an interview about hair. So that's hung on, shall we say. And that was the Tang and that was great. I think another highlight was when I was awarded the Moseley lecture for my research, which is a special named lecture at Skidmore. I pulled together materials and I felt like that lecture was, in some ways, the best lecture I've ever given. It really was interesting, and I heard some great comments from people whom I respect. And I did go on to publish pieces of it and then more of it. LG: And what was the topic? PJ: The, and this is in quotes, "pregnant" end quote, Mary Magdalene. It's about Mary Magdalene the saint, the Christian saint, being symbolically pregnant, not physically pregnant by Christ, as some have claimed. The Dan Brown suggestions. But rather, she was spiritually pregnant. She was infused by the Word of God, by God, similar in a way to Mary, but did not give birth to anything other than grace and positive ideas. So, I was very proud to do that lecture and I was super pleased at how well it went. LG: Penny, you've been very active in the community and at Skidmore with other retirees since you've retired. PJ: Yes. LG: Tell us about that, if you will. Page 14 of 17 �PJ: That's been really very nice of them to keep asking me to give lectures. I've been very happy doing those. It's fun to think about topics. So, we've been doing online lectures... LG: For retirees? PJ: For retirees, for the retiree group. And most recently, I gave a tour of an exhibition I have curated up at the Hyde Collection in Glens Falls. And that's been my biggest activity since I retired. Of course, retirement is broken into by the pandemic, and travel plans were missed and getting to museums was missed and all kinds of things were slowed down. This exhibit should have been done earlier, but it was held up for a whole bunch of reasons. In any case, it opened this fall and just closed January 5th. This is an exhibition about childhood in Italy, 1400 to 1500. It's called Growing Up in Renaissance Italy, Childhood in Italy 14... I must have the title wrong. I can't believe it. Growing Up in Renaissance Italy. I don't know, any rate, Childhood From 1400 to 1600. It was a terrific topic to work on. It's a topic of interest to a huge number of scholars right now, huge amount of scholarship on childhood in Italy, specifically in Florence also, which was my focus. So, I just had the fun of reading all kinds of things I hadn't read before, from history and anthropology and different areas, about childhood. It was really a terrific thing to work on. And then putting it up this fall, having it all come to fruition, I've also heard really positive feedback from a number of people about it. So, I've been very pleased. And it really kept me busy all fall because I gave so many tours of the exhibition. I was over there a lot, but I couldn't go for the de-installing. I thought, "I'll be just too sad, seeing them take everything down and crate it up." So, I avoided that this past week. LG: Anything else we should add that we haven't asked you about? PJ: Travel. One of the great things of my job is, I really had to travel. I had to go to Italy. I had to go to Belgium, Netherlands, France, England, Germany, Spain, all these great places. Because it was so important to see and experience the things you talk about. So, Skidmore has been very supportive of that. I have to say, the faculty research grants helped enormously with all that. LG: Those were the faculty research grants while you were still an active faculty member or as a retiree? PJ: When I was active. And I also have gotten a couple of them since I retired, which has been very generous of Skidmore. LG: From the... That's thePJ: The retirementLG: ...retiree group- Page 15 of 17 �PJ: ...group. Right. LG: ...that has funded you. PJ: Yes. Right. And that's for faculty and staff can be funded. So, they funded some of my travel when I was working on the show and some other elements. So that was terrific. LG: Those grants don't come from the College. Those come from the Retiree Initiative Planning Group. PJ: Okay. Have to hear more about that at some point. Again, I don't know. That was support from Skidmore. I do remember once going into Eric, because on a sabbaticalLG: Eric Weller? PJ: Eric Weller, Dean of Faculty. And I was taking a long and very expensive trip, and I asked him was there any chance he could give me more money, because I really needed to do this for the, I don't know, the book or something I was working on. And he did. I mean, he gave me a chunk of change. Which was really incredibly helpful at the time. My husband and I had divorced, and so my income was dramatically different. That was very helpful. And my second husband, Jay Rogoff, has been wonderful because he's been able to take time to travel with me. George almost never could, because of his job. But Jay is great in helping. LG: Anything else we should cover? Well, I want to thank you ever so much for participating in this project. PJ: You're most welcome, Lynne and Sue, most welcome. Wish you luck with it. Page 16 of 17 �Page 17 of 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Penny Jolly Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 52:32 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Penny Jolly Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 17th, 2025 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Penny Jolly grew up in the greater New York City area where she was very influenced by museums in the city. After undergraduate study at Oberlin and graduate degrees from the University of Pennsylvania, Penny arrived at Skidmore in 1976 where she taught courses in art history, especially Renaissance art and became Director of Art History as well as an active member of the Liberal Studies program and the Women’s Studies major. In this interview she discusses the separation of art history from studio art as separate departments, the faculty committee system, the creation of the Skidmore Daycare Center, and evolving relations between faculty and administration. Penny retired from the faculty in 2019. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d4ee2f6a1e8a827a5672709d7b10507a.jpg abc035b91f081203c0b83bbfffe56736 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2517f175df1dd6f0ac7f89d103f9150a.mp3 6cb93cd6036977fb4168abcdb78f2670 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Flurry Festival Description An account of the resource The Flurry Festival is a three day music and dance Festival that takes place in Saratoga Springs in February. The festival holds workshops, performances, dances, and jam sessions in the city center and throughout the town. The Flurry first started as a dance festival for contra dancing but has expanded to musicians and spans all genres of music and dance as well as encompassing family friendly events such as storytelling. Language A language of the resource English Subject The topic of the resource The Flurry Festival Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Davies, Clara-Sophia Daly, Dustin Foote, Amanda Muir, Tess Olcott, Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wav file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Amanda Muir Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Davis Location The location of the interview Room 128B, Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data digital audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 53:34 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Amanda Muir Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 8/12/2016 Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 00:00:00 Introductions 00:00:32 Discusses role of program director 00:01:28 Relationship to Paul Rosenberg, becoming the flurry program director 00:03:17 Asks wife how to strategize taking on the Flurry organization. Turns to computers 00:04:18 First year directing the festival, a power outage occurred in the city center while the weather became colder 00:07:25 Brought in swing music, the vision of Paul Rosenberg 00:08:30 Restructured the guidelines to increase profit for organization and increase younger attendance 00:10:40 Hired younger bands to increase youth attendance and added more youth oriented programing 00:12:20 Expanded the Flurry festival reach to a national scope, while still including local bands, teachers, and performers 00:14:20 Set up specific event for little kids and teens with help from board members 00:16:05 Remincing of sense of community at first Flurry festival. 00:16:50 Placed in a swing dance workshop at Old Songs Festival, met Jay Unger and Molly Mason who were big influences in the beginning of the Flurry Festival 00:17:30 Early swing dancing at the Flurry. Played the band at the festival and helped spread the word of the festival to more swing dancers 00:19:17 Played as a musician at the Flurry along with his son Ben 00:20:30 Maintained and increased the diversity in music and dance, added techno contra dance along with urban and traditional dance forms 00:23:50 Advertising the amount of music and songs available 00:24:25 Grant outreach through the Flurry Organization to underprivileged organizations to give them attendance to the festival 00:26:14 Increased positivity and support from the Saratoga community, specifically businesses 00:28:05 The flurry festival community. Hired musicians discovering the Flurry for the first time 00:30:07 Support of flurry community through financial troubles 00:31:00 Effects of the cold weather on the festival programmers and participants 00:33:25 Enjoying the Flurry. The difficulty of programming the events 00:36:20 Final performance was a medley of musicians at the festival that jammed including the Midwestern Swing 00:38:30 Watching the new people see the huge contra dances 00:39:30 Explaining the Flurry experience to non participants 00:42:20 The role the Flurry plays in Peter Davis’ life, looking towards the future 00:45:03 Considering the attendance of workshops and events 00:45:40 Positives and negatives of program director, writing a decline to a workshop teacher 00:46:50 The directors and departments on the Flurry Organization board 00:49:30 Desire to have support from local colleges and student performances 00:53:20 End Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Davis Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/8/2016 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS113A: Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amanda Muir Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore-Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource An interview with Peter Davis, the program director of the Flurry Festival from 2006- present day. Peter discusses the nuts and bolts of creating the schedule and how it changed from Paul Rosenberg's direction to the current form. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wav file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga Springs -- Flurry Festival -- History City Center dance director Flurry music oral history Peter Davis programs The Flurry Festival https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8a0d4fb74796be3d1a5ea74de2c1911a.jpg 66f37b83fd4137ff2fcfc2b09aa552b6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9b6f641ea4e49dcd21acdc6c651a8d0a.m4a f1aa2901820feba0538ddc9652251f20 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/71f07a70e3377300dcd3bff53350302d.pdf c415db1fcc3f33bc3ed0f9e2fcdf0081 PDF Text Text Interview with Philip A. Glotzbach by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, November 10, 2023. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber interviewing Phil Glotzbach for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project. It is November 10th, 2023, and we are in Saratoga Springs. Phil, welcome! It’s nice to see you here. PHIL GLOTZBACH: Thank you. LG: Tell us a little bit about where you were born and a little bit about growing up … um, a little bit about your childhood, to start with. PG: Well, I was born in the Mid — I’m a Midwesterner … I grew up pretty much in the Midwest. I was born in Kansas City, Kansas. We lived there for eight years, in a little town just outside of Kansas City, on the Kansas side, called Prairie Village. Which interestingly is the place where Reg Lilly, in Philosophy, also grew up! [chuckles] Although we didn’t know each other. At age eight my family moved to Chicago for a few years. We lived there for three years. And then we moved to Dayton, Ohio, south of Dayton — Kettering, suburb of Dayton, and that’s where I really grew up and spent my youth. Went to Notre Dame, also in the Midwest, as we know, and then to Yale for graduate school — so that was really the first time I’d lived any place other than in the Midwest. LG: That must have been interesting to move to the East coast to live for the first time. PG: It was wonderful. I’ve [laughs] I still think that graduate school was sort of the pinnacle of my life and it’s been downhill ever since. LG: [laughs} PG: Although, … and so many people look back on their graduate school days with horror and say “Oh it was awful!” I just loved every minute of it. But … LG: What was so special about it? PG: Well, I got to do what I wanted to do, which was read Philosophy and study Philosophy and do it all day at Yale University, with, you know, the library and with the people and the professors and fellow graduate students who were very smart, and it was just … it was heaven, absolutely heaven. And I got to teach. My first … LG: As a TA? PG: As a TA, and then my final year there I had my own class, a two-semester Intro to Philosophy class, that I just loved. So it was, I had won something called a Prize Teaching Fellowship, which came from having some success as a TA in classes, and the reward was that I got an office [laughs], which I’d had before, but this was a nice office. 1 �It was in Sterling-Strathcona-Sheffield, Strathcona-Sheffield Hall, and it was on the 12th floor and I got to look out over the entire campus, so that was part of it, it was just wonderful. But the award gave me, extended my fellowship and it gave me this class to teach for my final year, so that was wonderful. LG: And, were the philosophy, um, philosophers that you were teaching mostly Aristotle, Plato, that group, or…? PG: Well, this was an Intro class that, again, it was two semesters so we started with Aristotle, with Plato … Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, but then we went up through, I think we taught John … I haven’t looked at this syllabus for a few years — this was 50 years ago! [laughs] But we taught John Stuart Mill and then, you know, a bunch of other things. I mean it was great, I loved it. It was sort of, it was through the history of Philosophy. But… LG: So, it was the teaching and the atmosphere that led you into Philosophy? PG: Well … I got into Philosophy as an undergraduate, and, … um, I’m never sure if I should tell this story, but at the end of my freshman year I had no clue about what I wanted to do, and I’d thought about English or Sociology, I just didn’t know, and I’d never had a Philosophy class — we’d read some Philosophy in a Political Science class, in a Humanities seminar, and so on, so I’d had some introduction. And so I went into the office of Freshman Studies or the Dean of the Freshman Year or whatever it was called back then, and they had an aptitude and interests test, which they would administer if you wanted them to. And this was like 500 questions, you know … “Would you rather be in the forest or driving a truck,” you know, these kinds of questions. And so I just did it, I mean just for the heck of it. And at the end of it, so they computed this thing and went through it all and they said, “Well, you score highest in interest in Philosophy and Religion.” And I looked at that and thought, “Well, yeah, that seems right! Ok!” [laughs] LG: Did anybody ever say “what are you going to do with that?” PG: No. Well, my parents, but… LG: [laughs] That’s who I had in mind. PG: But…and it wasn’t that I got interested in it because of the test, it was the test triggered something in me that said, “Yeah, I really am interested in this stuff.” And so I, … I mean, we don’t have to go through the curriculum. So that was the first thing, so I started taking more Philosophy classes and decided I was going to be a Philosophy major and all that. And every Philosophy class I took confirmed it. And then in the spring of my sophomore year I had another epiphany, and I still remember this to the … you know, vividly. Vividly. This was 1970, so again it was quite a while ago. I was in the library, on the second floor of the library at Notre Dame, and I ran into a section that had all these things called journals, which I’d never seen before, professional journals. I saw all these Philosophy journals, and I just started randomly pulling some off the shelf just looking to 2 �see what the heck these things were. And, you know, I opened one up and it was a Philosophy essay, and I thought, “My God, people write essays and publish them in these journals and people read them,” and I thought “This is fantastic! I want to do that!” And that’s when I decided, “Ok, I really want to … I want to be a Philosophy major, I knew that, but I want to become a professional Philosopher, I want to go get a PhD.” By that time I knew what a PhD was. I wanted to go to graduate school, and that just confirmed it. So I just fell head over heels in love with the discipline, and that led to graduate school. And at the end of my senior year, when I had applied to grad schools and had been accepted at a couple, including Yale, and I was very happy to go there, I got a letter from the American Philosophical Association — the professional association, right? And the thrust of this letter was basically, and I believe it was like, it was a one-page letter, and it said, “So, you’re going to Philosophy graduate school and you probably think you’re going to go to get a PhD and get a job teaching Philosophy at a college or university. Well forget it…” [laughs] “…because there are no jobs out there, and so you might as well …” you know. And I’m not sure what the purpose of that letter was, sort of to … to say “Well maybe I shouldn’t go to Philosophy graduate school after all.” But I thought, “Well, sure, there are no jobs out there, but I’ll get one.” [laughs] So I just threw it in the wastebasket and went on. And as it turned out, I was lucky to be one of the few who actually did get a job, at Denison. Denison University. It was my first … LG: And what year was that? PG: That was 1977. I graduated from undergraduate school in ’72 and, you know, spent 5 years in graduate school and still hadn’t finished my dissertation, so I was ABD. And they hired me anyway. And I, when I spoke over the years to new faculty members at Skidmore, I always told this story. I said, “Well I was hired …” and especially to the ones who were on temporary contracts or, you know, whatever it would be, um, short-term contracts, non-tenure track contracts, and I said, “So when I was hired in this job my contract said, ‘Tenure possible.’ ” And I would say, “I don’t even think they knew what that meant.” But to me it meant, “Ok, it was possible, so I’ll just go and do a good job and I’ll get tenure.” You know, silly me. But, um … and that was the first time I had really had experience with a liberal arts college. You know, I was at Notre Dame, which is a university, and Yale, which is a university, and larger, and I had a great undergraduate experience at Notre Dame. The Philosophy Department there was first rate and they really cared about their undergraduates. And they cared about their graduates too. And it was a community, and there was a philosophy colloquium every Friday, and everybody went to it. And I went to it and got to hear people, you know, argue about philosophical stuff. I mean again, it was just great. Um, but I’d never been to a liberal arts college, and at Denison I started learning what a liberal arts college was, and what it meant to teach at one. And I thought I was a pretty good teacher already, coming out of graduate school, but I wasn’t. And, you know, I had a lot to learn, and I think you could spend your whole life teaching — you guys know this — you can keep learning forever. But I really did learn how to teach there. 3 �LG: Isn’t that why they say we all became faculty members? PG: Right. To keep learning. LG: Yes! PG: Because it’s fun. It’s the best job you can have. And, and so this is kind of a long-winded way to say, and I spent 15 years at Denison in the Philosophy Department teaching, and loved it, and did some other things there, and … LG: So how did you get into administration? PG: Well, a couple of things happened. Over my time at Denison I became the Department Chair, and I enjoyed doing that. Most people look at that as a prison sentence and I liked it, I thought it was great. You know, you got to help the department. I mean it was really a series of experiences that expanded the scope of what I was thinking about. So, you know, when you are a teacher, you are thinking about your classes and this and that, and as a department chair you have to think about the whole department, like that, so I enjoyed that. And I got involved with some governance committees, connected with curriculum, primarily, and we did a curriculum revision and put in a new first-year curriculum. And I was elected chair of the Faculty Senate and we got that curriculum through, and then the last thing we did, at the end of the year, was to vote ourselves out of existence. Because, you know, I thought, and others thought, it’s silly at a small school to have a Faculty Senate. I mean, you know, have a faculty meeting and be done with it. And I enjoyed all of that, I found it interesting to think, now, then, not just about the department but about the whole college. What’s going on and how can we make things better? And my second … and so I had a series of experiences like that, where I kind of enjoyed it and thought it was good. And all that time I was very much enjoying teaching and doing research and all that other stuff. But I also started a couple of programs there. One was called the Denison Greek Studies Program, that I started with another faculty member, in English, and some other people in Philosophy, a bunch of us, and we would take students to Greece for a six-week seminar in the summer and study ancient philosophy and science and art and history. I mean it was great, it was an interdisciplinary seminar, so I loved that. And the second thing … and that doesn’t exist any more, it persisted a few years after I left and then I think it went away. But the second thing that I started was a PPE program, Philosophy, Politics and Economics, structure… patterned after the one at Oxford. And I’d heard about that program, I thought, “Gee that looks really interesting,” and it was an interdisciplinary program, and I thought that would be something that students at Denison would really take to. And so I worked with it, and I was chair of the Philosophy Department and I got support of our department and I worked with the Government Department and the Economics Department and it took a little while but we put this thing together and got it approved. And that program still exists today. So, I’m actually kind of proud of that. But 4 �anyway, I found those experiences to be interesting and enjoyable and satisfying and all that. And then I spent a period of time in 1987 as a member of the Presidential Search Committee, we were hiring a new president. And we had had a president before then who was there for four years and was not successful. And it was somebody who, someone with a very strong faculty background who came in and I was totally convinced that this person would be a great president, and it turned out he wasn’t. And, you know, I thought, “Well that was kind of interesting, to find that out.” So I found myself on this Presidential Search Committee, and I’d never worked with trustees before, barely sort of knew what they were all about, and there were alumni on this committee, and some other faculty members and staff and so on, and there was about 14,15 people on this committee. And I found that the experience of, first of all, I really enjoyed getting to know the trustees and to see how they related to the college and what they were all about and their commitment to the place, and they were very interesting people on their own, and same for the alumni who were on there. But the whole process of trying to figure out whom we should bring to Denison as a president, the next president, just turned out to be fascinating to me. I was interested in the questions we were asking and the whole process, and seeing … and we had 150 applicants, you know. There was no shortage of people who were applying. And I looked back over the list, once upon a time, and gee, some of those people went on and did other things and I’ve sort of gotten to know them in other contexts, I mean it was pretty interesting. But, so I found the process itself to be fascinating, and I thought, “These are questions I’m interested in,” — that we were asking the candidates. And I also thought, “And you know, they’re not THAT great.” I mean, it’s not like they came from another planet. LG: [laughs] You can do that too! PG: I mean, so I thought, “Yeah, maybe I could do this.” So, that led me to think that, “Yeah, I think I would like to be a president.” Because, again, it’s an expansion of scope. What would it be like to have responsibilities for thinking about an entire institution, and so on. And the pathway to becoming a college president, from where I sat, was to become an academic administrator, a dean. And I, there was no pathway for that at Denison because they had some very good people in administration and they weren’t going anywhere anytime soon, and, given the ages of our children and all that, it just seemed that, if I was going to do this, we would need to go somewhere else and start. So, that’s kind of a long winded, … I don’t know that anybody’s really going to be interested in this. LG: Well yeah, actually! So how did you find your way to Skidmore? PG: Well, I went, first of all, to the University of Redlands in Southern California, and … LG: As a…? PG: As,… I was Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. LG: And that was … 5 �PG: That was in two,… in 1992. 1992. So I’d been at Denison for 15 years, and … I was Dean for, oh, I don’t know, six years or something, and I kind of moved into being what they called the … the Chief Academic Officer, something, then I became officially the Vice President for Academic Affairs. And when I came, there were two divisions, the College of Arts and Sciences and an adult learning program. By the time I left there were three divisions, a School of Business, School of Education and College of Arts and Sciences. And as Chief Academic Officer and Vice President for Academic Affairs I was in charge of all three of those, and so that was interesting. But I always had in the back of my mind that I wanted to be a president. And it was no secret to anybody, and the president there was very generous and … um, worked with me, mentored me, and you know, we thought about being, you know, what does it mean to be a president, and I paid attention to what he was doing. So I really felt like I learned a lot about administration in that job, and I was there for eleven years. And then in 2003 I had applied for some other presidencies and we, Marie and I, had gone on some campus visits and I’d had a number of interviews and nothing had quite clicked, and in the … in the spring of 2003 there were … there were three really interesting jobs that I was involved in. I won’t name the other two schools, but … basically became a finalist at all three, and one of them was Skidmore. And I didn’t know much about Skidmore. I heard …. I knew the name, and, situated on the West Coast I really didn’t know much about the liberal arts colleges on the East Coast, but we, Marie and I, wanted to come back to the East Coast if we could, and I knew by then I wanted to be a president at a liberal arts college. Um, the University of Redlands was actually a bit of a larger school, we thought of it as a liberal arts university, it’s kind of medium-sized., and very interesting, and had a bunch of good stuff going on, and it’s a great school, and the undergraduate school is terrific there. Still is. And it’s gotten better and better, after I left. But, I wanted a liberal arts college. And so, um, we went through a number of interviews with some various schools and that spring of 2003, I was a finalist in three different searches and came in second in one of them and the other two were Skidmore and this other school which was very good and actually ranked higher than Skidmore on US News and all this, and had more resources, but, um, Marie and I thought that Skidmore really would be the place for us, and a lot of things resonated with … with us and with what we’d learned about the college through the interview process and all that, and so we … LG: What struck you, in particular? PG: Well, I mean first of all I loved the, um … I loved the motto, Creative Thought Matters, and what that meant and what that said. And, of course, Marie’s in theater and music, and, you know people think of creativity as the arts, and all this, and we’ve been through this conversation at Skidmore all my time here, but what I took that to mean was that creativity matters everywhere. And that’s what the college was saying. And that motto had just come into existence. LG: Who did that? PG: Well, it was at the, Jamie Studley, right at the end of her time, because this — it was 6 �already there by the time I came. And some people don’t remember that [laughs], and I’ve gotten credit for it, … um, I’ve … SUE BENDER: [laughs] LG: [laughs] We had this discussion, Phil and I. PG: I love taking credit for things I didn’t do, but, um … but it had just come into being, and the process that brought it there, Michael Casey was involved in that, very heavily. And you know, you had an outside consultant who came in and actually talked to people and listened. And mostly those exercises result in failure. A school spends some amount of money, more than people would imagine, creating a new motto, a new phrase or something, and they go with it for four or five years and then they say, “Yeah, this isn’t that great, you know, it’s just not working.” But Creative Thought Matters came out of a process that, right, it fit the college, it really expressed something that was there, and the fact that it has persisted over all this time shows that it was really the right thing. And I thought this was great, because I loved the idea. People weren’t talking much about creativity back then. Today everybody talks about it. It’s a big deal. But back then it was very rare, and … so one of the things that attracted me, and us, to Skidmore, was that this was part of their presentation at the time, the search committees of the college and all this, and we talked about that. Secondly, the strong sense of community that, um, that we felt and people talked about, and when we went on campus we felt that and people cared about the campus and the college and they cared about each other, and … you know, no place is perfect and all that, we know, but … but that was something that was, seemed very distinctive at Skidmore. I mean … LG: Were there any surprises? PG: When we came? LG: Yeah. PG: That’s … people always ask that. Um, I don’t know that there were any particular surprises. Um, again, liberal arts colleges are all kind of alike in a lot of ways, right? They have small classes and faculty members care about students, and, … you know, nice campuses and all this. I mean there’s just a … and a lot of schools, when they’re trying to tell prospective students why they should come, they talk about those things, and I always thought, “Well gee, talk about those things, but why does that send you to Skidmore as opposed to, you know, Denison or any place else?” But I thought Skidmore really had something with Creative Thought Matters. And one of the things that, one of the other things that I always talked about, I always thought was important, and that Skidmore was already talking about, was interdisciplinarity, you know, with the liberal studies curriculum. And, ironically, when I 7 �was cleaning out my office at the University of Redlands I had a box of books underneath it, that had just gotten shoved in there for whatever reason. And I’m going through these books and two of them were the liberal studies curriculum from Skidmore college. Which I’d gotten, you know, at some point in my Dean … Deanship and Vice Presidentship and all of this, and I’d looked at it but I hadn’t really read through it and I thought, “Well this is, you know, kismet here. This is…” [laughs]. LG: That was kind of neat for everybody involved. PG: Yes! LG: Faculty and students. PG: It was a marvelous program! And it was interdisciplinary, and it really brought people together. I mean, you guys know all this, you lived through it. But I’m just saying so that was something that I thought was enormously interesting and important about the College, that they had developed this curriculum, even though it hadn’t completely been finished, right? I mean there were parts of it, so it ended up being this first year curriculum. But I thought that was great. And even though one of the first things that happened when I got there was to basically put that curriculum in mothballs and create First Year Seminars, which I also thought was the right thing to do, and so on … but it retained the commitment to interdisciplinarity with the requirement that every seminar have an interdisciplinary component, not just as an add-on but built in. And the fact that the Skidmore faculty could teach that seminar — you know, sixty sections a year, forty to sixty, I mean it depends on the … it grew over time — was a tribute to faculty who understood the importance of those cross-disciplinary connections. I mean you have to be rooted in your own discipline — you have to have that. If you don’t have that, you have nothing to bring to the table. But to understand that there’s a wider world out there. And, what I came to learn, pretty early on in Skidmore, was that faculty members did not feel a proprietary sense about their students. I had experienced, at other places, faculty members in certain departments that will remain unnamed, who thought they owned their students. And … owned in a sense that if a student wanted to, you know, double major or spend time somewhere else or something they said, “Oh no, you can’t do that. You have to be here.” None of that at Skidmore, that I ever saw. And I thought that was marvelous. And so, you know, was that a surprise? Maybe a small one, but it fed into or grew out of what we’d already seen. So those were things that really attracted us to Skidmore. The sense of interdisciplinarity that people understood. And I’ve always been interdisciplinary, my work cuts across lots of disciplines, that’s what I always did. And that Greek seminar was an example of that. But, and so to find a school that had that in its DNA and that cared about community and cared deeply about students, which again would be true of most liberal arts colleges. And the last thing was that it had enormous potential …enormous potential, because it seemed pretty clear to me that there were things that the school wanted to do and could do that it couldn’t do yet. LG: Like what? 8 �PG: Well, the search, I’ll give you… I’ll answer that in a second, but the, when I was talking with the search committee at the end of the, at the end of the, you know, interview, first interview, and I remember this, they asked me, “Well, ok, so what … what challenges do you see at Skidmore? What are some things? And I said, “Well there are three of them: endowment, endowment and endowment.” [laughs] I mean, the endowment was about $150 million back then and I thought, “my God, I mean, here’s a school that is a strong liberal arts college, and it has all these things going for it and everything, and only a $150 million dollars in the endowment? How can this be?” And, of course, we all know the history of how, how that came to be. Yeah, I mean a lot of things went into that. So that was one of the things that had to happen. Um, you know the potential was — it’s in my inaugural talk, actually, I mean I’ve said, addressed — you know the first thing to figure out is, “Ok, we say Creative Thought Matters. Well, what does that mean?” You know, “What does that mean in classrooms and curriculum, what does that mean for students? How do we live that?” And so that was an interesting challenge. The other challenges had to do with, it was very clear that there were things that needed to be built here, starting with what became Zankel Hall. I mean that was already designed, right? It was already on the books, but … it had already won an award! [laughs] It was one of the best unbuilt buildings in America! You may remember this. LG: [laughs] PG: It won an architectural award for that. Um, you know that building needed to be built. And, as it very quickly turned out, there were other things that were pretty obvious. I mean we needed to get more students back on campus. We needed to get students … there were too many students living out among human beings in Saratoga Springs. You know, college students should not live with human beings, they should be on a campus, right? LG: laughs] PG: And so, we were fortunate enough to be able to build the Northwoods Apartments very quickly, and we borrowed money and it was easy because we were bringing students back, and so that was revenue stream right there and that took care of the cost of … LG: By bringing them back what did you hope to accomplish? PG: Well, the first thing we wanted to accomplish was to get, again just to get them back on campus where they needed to be, instead of … to be less of a commuter campus. Number two, the students who were living off campus were juniors and seniors, right? And so there was this huge unbalance, imbalance, of too many first year and second year students on campus and the, and so the campus was too immature. Number three, when so many students are living off campus, they clear out at night and so there’s a kind of vitality drain, there’s an energy drain that happens, and as soon as we opened those residence 9 �halls the energy level of the campus kicked up. And you didn’t have all these students driving cars back and forth. And the other part was Moore Hall. You know, getting rid of Moore Hall. Which the trustees realized, even … even before I did. LG: The Pink Palace. [laughs] PG: Yes, the Pink Palace, where we live today. We live on the site of Moore Hall in a townhouse there. Um, I mean you know, to have this residence hall, which was good in its own way, aside from the facade, um, for years and years, and students actually liked living there, but it’s two miles away. I mean, so again, so to get those students back on campus, that was huge. To build Zankel Hall, to give music a real home and to make a space where you could bring people together on campus. You know, Zankel Hall is just amazing; we were fortunate to be able to do that. Um, and, you know, just to find ways to give, bring the resources here so that the College could do what it wanted to do. What people wanted to do in the classrooms, what people wanted to do in departments. I mean there were just places where there were needs. It’s the first strategic plan. You know, if you look at the strategic plan from 2005 to 2015 there were four goals in there but the title of the plan was “Engaged Learning.” So how do we strengthen that? What does it mean? And I wrote the preface to that, which I still like. The preface was really about “What is liberal education? What does it mean? What could it mean at Skidmore? And what about our distinctive identity?” So those are all things in the preface of that strategic plan. LG: And what did you mean by “engaged?” PG: Well, having, I mean it’s the difference between active and passive, to start with, you know. I mean, and again this was not some new idea. Um, the revolution in pedagogy that happened in the ’80s and the ’90s, and you guys lived through this, was a discovery of … that there was a difference between students learning and professors talking, right? I mean, people sort of figured out, “wait a minute.” I mean, I, I grew up, and we probably all did, at the time when we thought teaching was performing. And I love to do that, I love to lecture. But the discovery that really if you want to talk about how students learn, you need to do more, and you need to rethink what your classroom looks like and what you’re doing, and all that. I mean, so that was a major, a major revelation, I think, and revolution. Particularly in the ’80s and ’90s. Along with trying to get more diversity in student bodies, and all that, and what it meant to do that. LG: So, would you consider diversity as one of your big challenges? PG: Well, it was, and it was the second goal in the strategic plan, you know, that we need to make Skidmore a more diverse place. The number of, the percentage of students of color was about eleven percent back then, and the number of international students was, you know, point three percent, or something, I mean there just… and so, we, to make Skidmore College for the 21st century, we needed to make it a more diverse place. And the faculty was not any more diverse than the student body. And so, that strategic plan said we have to change that. And, you know, so the first thing we tried to do was to 10 �increase the number of scholarships, you know, to be able to bring students to campus who hadn’t been coming. We needed to expand our outreach in admissions. The very first thing we did was just to expand the HEOP program, because that was a place where there was, you know, sort of a center of diversity on campus. The problem was people thought that every student of color was an Opportunity student, even back then, which wasn’t true. Wasn’t even true back then. So we had to move past that and say, “No, it’s not the case that every student of color is in the Opportunity Program.” But, expanding the Opportunity Program was a way of bringing more students of color, and not just students of color but some, you know, white kids who were from disadvantaged backgrounds and so on. But that was a start. And then we set some very ambitious goals, and worked on domestic diversity first, and then we went for international diversity. And, you know, the result is it’s a completely different student body today. LG: So, you mentioned endowment and diversity. What were some of the other challenges that you … you faced? PG: You know, one interesting challenge, which was not quite on the scale of the others, was governance. I’d thought a lot about governance as a professor and as a dean and vice president and all that, and when I was being interviewed, I met with, I think it was, well it became the Faculty Executive Committee, I forget what it was called back then. LG: CAPTS. PG: CEPP? CAPTS? LG: CAPTS. PG: CAPTS? Well, CAPTS was the promotion and tenure committee. SB: That’s personnel. LG: Well, it had to… SB: Educational Policy. PG: CEPP, CEPP, it was probably CEPP. LG: Ok. PG: But whoever it was, I mean it’s a group of faculty leaders who were involved in governance. And I asked them, how many … LG: See the governance was Committee on Academic Promotions and Tenure. PG: Well, that was … 11 �SB: They both … PG: Now let’s not argue [laughs]. That was the Promotion and Tenure Committee. CAPT. LG: But they, in my mind, focused on … anyway. PG: Anyway, so I met with a bunch of faculty leaders and I said, “Now, how many … how many faculty positions are required in the governance system?” And I knew the answer to that because I’d read the faculty handbook and I’d counted them up. And it was like … twice the size of the faculty or something … whatever it was. I mean it was some factor, and I gave them that number and they were all kind of surprised. I said, “You know, you’ve got so many different committees and so many different people on this, it’s like, it’s taking all this energy. Is all that really necessary?” You know, “Is there a more efficient way to do this?” And so that was a question that I asked, coming in. And that’s something that, that we’ve wrestled with over the years and I think made some progress. And, you know, you never quite solve that battle, but if you look at the difference between what the governance system was in 2003 and what it was in 2020 when I retired … there were some new committees, which were great, um, and some committees that had morphed … LG: Like what? PG: Um, CIGU, the Committee on Intercultural and Global Understanding, which I started as a committee with a different name around the time of that, of that, um, first strategic plan. And it morphed into CIGU and it’s still there and I think it’s been a very important committee; it has given a lot of good advice. Um, the IPPC grew out of the IPC, and there was another committee, there were actually, there was a Budget Committee, right, whatever, Faculty Budget Committee, and then there was a third committee, which was kind of an all College committee, which involved students and so on, and so we were able to get rid of those two committees and to combine them into the IPPC, which … LG: Stands for? PG: Yes, right, the Institutional Policy and Planning Committee. So, it’s a strategic thinking committee that also dealt with policies. And it was a College-wide committee, so it had faculty, students, staff, and … people periodically would ask if that committee was too big, and isn’t it unwieldy, and I said, “No, it wasn’t unwieldy.” I mean, people get in there, we got a lot done. Um, so I think we did manage to reduce, and the Budget Committee, it became the Budget Committee, was something, but separate Budget Committee I thought was unnecessary, and this other committee that was like the College Life Committee or Campus Committee, that … we got rid of that and that became this. So we did some of that, and over the years people have, I think, successfully reduced a few positions here or there. It’s hard to … to get fewer people involved in shared governance because people know it’s important. Anyways, so that was one of the things. That’s kind of a small thing, but my thought was that people are having to spend an awful 12 �lot of time on this, and, you know, you just need to, it’s really important and if you are in it you need to do it well. Not everybody is going to do it well, and you need to make sure you’ve got time for other things. So that was one of the little things we did. And the Alumni, you know, we needed to bring … the Alumni engagement was not where I thought it needed to be. We needed to work on that. Fundraising, we needed to gear up. We needed to increase the annual fund. I mean, you know a lot of stuff revolved around money, um, but that was enormously important. So those were some of the things. LG: Any disappointments over the years? Things that you wanted to happen that didn’t? PG: [laughs] How much time do we have? What time is this? LG: [laughs]. PG: You know actually, the truth is not that many. Um, I wish that I could have — we, it wasn’t ever I, it was always we. I wish we could have raised more money. You know, the endowment now is over half a billion or is around there. The first strategic plan set a goal of … I think it was 300 million. Yeah, we wanted to double the endowment and people thought that was ambitious. Well, we actually hit that pretty quickly. Um, the two capital campaigns were successful, and both of those raised more money than people thought initially they would. Um, the first one was aided by the untimely death of Arthur Zankel, which was a tragedy. Arthur was a wonderful former trustee, and he’d sent two sons to Skidmore. But he named Skidmore, I think, the number one recipient of the residuaries in his will. And we ended up with, 45, 46 million dollars from that bequest, which was transformative in a lot of ways. I mean that gave us the lead gift for the Zankel center. That gave us endowment. That gave us money for scholarships. That created the, um, Arts Management program, um, … and you know, with some endowment from that. And so that was an amazing gift. And it also put Skidmore on the map with some other people who hadn’t perhaps noticed the College as much, but when that kind of a bequest comes through, people pay attention. Um, it started a relationship with Carnegie Hall, because they were the number two recipient of the residuaries, and of course there’s a Zankel Hall there, and Arthur had been very strongly involved, very much involved; the family is still involved with Carnegie Hall. And, um, I got to know, as a result of that, the director of Carnegie Hall. I’m blocking on his name right now, which is a scandal, I shouldn’t … wonderful guy, it’ll hit me in a minute. And he was just starting up the program that became Connect. Connect, right? It had a different name back then. And so one of the things that we talked about early on was having those fellowship students come up to Skidmore and perform, and so that’s where that all came. Who was that? Clive! Um, Gillian? Gillian. Yeah. Clive … his last name begins with a G. Wonderful guy, very smart, very creative. Um, and so that was a relationship that Skidmore was able to forge with this major cultural institution in New York City, which was great. Um, and … so you know, a lot of good things happened as a result of that. LG: One thing you haven’t talked about … 13 �PG: Ahh. LG: Way back, you were a sports coach. PG: [laughs]. LG: Do you want to talk about that? PG: Well, LG: It’s a different part … PG: For one … for one semester. It was the fall of what turned out to be our final year at Denison, and our son was a freshman in high school and was on the football team and, I won’t go through the long saga of how I got this, but I was invited to become a … a volunteer assistant coach on the football team, and I really didn’t, I didn’t know much about coaching, and the real coaches were very generous and taught me a lot of what I needed to learn, and it was a pretty interesting program at a very small school. And so I became the coach for the freshmen and the reserve team. I was a defensive coach, defensive coordinator, and I loved it! It was one of the most fun things. The only reason I could do it is I was on sabbatical from the college in that fall, I mean I was doing other work but I didn’t have to teach, and so I could, I could go to practices and do this. LG: And you could use your philosophical skills? PG: Well, I’m not sure how … LG: In the defense. PG: Only once or twice. But. And I won’t go into details because we are running out of time, but that … LG: Did that … PG: They did give me a little plaque that said Philosopher Coach, or something, which was kind of funny. LG: Did that have any effect on anything that you were, anything having to do with athletics at Skidmore? PG: No, I mean I’d always thought that athletics were a valuable part of the student experience. Both our kids were athletes. Jason went on and played football at Princeton and Elizabeth played water polo at Santa Clara, which is a Division 1 school. She was team captain by the time of her senior year so, you know, I saw first-hand how important sports are. And they were both good students, you know, so. I mean Jason did alright … you know, he became a cardiothoracic surgeon, so. And Elizabeth did alright, too … you know, she’s 14 �involved in the film industry. Um, I thought athletics were important. I mean they’re not the be-all and end-all. And I really liked, one of the things that I very much liked about Division 3 was I thought athletics were in their rightful place. In Division 1 it’s a different story, you know. But Division 3 athletics are a complement to the academic core of the Institution. LG: So, one last thing I want to ask you is, what have you been doing since you retired? PG: [laughs] Um, let me just go back before we get to that, because we, you talked about athletics. I mean, one of the things that I am proud about at Skidmore was the growth of athletics over the years, and you all will recall that my first year, my freshman year as president, I received a recommendation that we needed to get rid of hockey, right? That there were too many programs in the athletic department. We couldn’t support them at the level of funding that we had. LG: You’re talking about field hockey or ice hockey? PG: No, ice hockey. Ice hockey. Men’s hockey. And it was unbalanced and it was unbalanced in terms of Title IX — I mean there’s all these reasons — and the program wasn’t that great at the time, and so on. And so I made the decision to eliminate hockey. Right? Remember this? And that created an uproar, among both the hockey players and their parents, and a lot of students on campus thought this was awful. A lot of women students thought this was awful. Get rid of the hockey players on campus? No thank you. Um, and I understood that. And a lot of male alumni from the ’80s and the ’90s came out of the walls and said, “You can’t do this. This is really important. It’s important to us.” And I said, “Well it’s important to you? Have you ever contributed to the college to support this?” “No, we don’t do that.” “Well,” I was like, “Guess what?” And so we went through a period of negotiations with those guys and the number of parents and everything and it was really, a really interesting process, and after several weeks, months, I guess, probably six weeks of discussions, and Michael Casey was involved with that as well, the Advancement Office was convinced that we had come up with a plan, and with commitments from these alumni, who had not been supportive of the college, to be supportive. And we came up with various things and, that convinced Michael Casey that it was a legitimate plan and we could follow through on this, and that in fact there were numbers here that said “Ok, we could make this happen.” I mean I never wanted to get rid of hockey. What I wanted to do was have a strong athletic department that we could afford. And that, we came up with a plan not just for funding hockey but for doing more with funding of the athletic program as a whole, which was underfunded terribly at the time. Still is, but it was much worse back then. And we created FOSA, Friends of Skidmore Athletics. First time there was ever any serious fundraising around athletics. And we brought hockey back. And that was fine, it was easier to do that than to get rid of it. And, by the way, the hockey team is undefeated this year, as far as I can tell. LG: [laughs] PG: But, you know and we brought Gail Cummings-Danson in as Athletic Director a few years 15 �later, and one of the things that she did — she did two things — she created a lot of things — she’s done very well over her time here. She created the Hall of Fame to honor Skidmore athletes over time, which was a wonderful thing and it’s terrific over there in the Athletic Department. And, uh, they actually made me a member a couple of years ago, which was kind of fun. But she created the Thoroughbred Society, right? An honorary society to honor student athletes who had a GPA of … I forget what the … 3.6? 3.4? It’s pretty high to get in there. And the hockey team actually won the team award a couple of years ago for the mens’ scores, and I think they’ve done that several times in a row, so. You know, to honor our student athletes for their academic achievement is, I think, exactly in keeping with what athletics should do in Division 3 schools. So anyway, I’m very proud of how that worked and it came to be. So you asked me about …? LG: What you’ve been doing since you retired. PG: Oh. LG: So, Phil, why don’t you talk to us about your relationship with students as they came in and then through the years. PG: Yeah. Um, you know I talked before about being a teacher, and I loved being a teacher. I loved seeing what happens to students over the course of a semester and over four years, and that was very much at the heart of my professional identity. And, when I became a Dean and Vice President, [clears throat] excuse me, out at Redlands, I tried to do a little teaching. And I did a few, a few classes, but I always ended up feeling I was cheating them because as an administrator something invariably comes up, right? Something happens that you have to drop everything and deal with, and I always felt like when that happened the students got shortchanged, so after a while I stopped teaching. So, I really, at the University of Redlands, I really didn’t have much contact with students and I, … my main constituency was always the faculty, right? So, I had a lot of contact with faculty members. And when I became the President, one of the things that I looked forward to was to be in an office where, as part of the responsibilities, were to connect with students and to have, you know, to know what was going on in the student body as much as you can, and all that sort of thing. So that was something that I looked forward to. And it was always the case in every Presidency to which I applied or I spoke to the search committee, there were always students in there. I was always interested to hear what the students had to say and what they had to say about the school and all that. So, when we came to Skidmore, I looked for opportunities to talk with students and there were two major ways, I think, that that happened. Maybe, three — here’s two. One was in larger settings: so every year during Accepted Candidates Days I got to give a talk, a sort of welcoming talk and a why you should come to Skidmore talk, as part of that program, and I thought that we did that very well. And one of the things that really helped was when we got Zankel built, and to be able to have Accepted Candidates Day transpire in that space. I mean, my goodness, you know, in this beautiful space — what a great statement about the College. And I loved giving those talks to new students, or prospective students and their families, and they’d been accepted, and … and so I enjoyed that very much. And then when they … when they actually arrived in the fall, in 16 �the opening fall convocation, I also gave a talk. Presidents do this, right? And many Presidents change that talk every year and they talk about, you know, liberal education and a bunch of stuff, and I thought that — the Dean of the Faculty always spoke at that and I always thought, “Well, that’s what that person should do … should talk about liberal education and, you know, those kind of things,” which I love to talk about, but what I thought the students need to hear from me was, “Here’s how not to screw up your college career.” [laughs] You know, “Here’s what you need to do, and by the way, parents, this part is for you too.” And so I talked to students and parents and said, here are, you know, five things, six things, eight things to think about to get started well and to finish well. And so we’ll come back to that later, but I always enjoyed giving that talk because I thought it was important. I thought that they, it’s the one moment when they are actually sort of paying attention and might be able to hear some of this. And if their parents heard it and liked it, that they could reinforce it over the years. And I think they did. And a lot of parents came up to me after those talks and, you know, we’d talk about it and everything, and … I actually met a parent just last spring at a Skidmore event who was a father of a graduating senior. And we’re chatting and he’s a smart guy and we had gotten to know him and his wife a little bit because they were, you know, advancement prospects and they actually made some nice donations to the College and everything, but one of the things he said, just spontaneously, was he said, “I still remember that talk that you gave them freshman year. We talked about that a little bit.” And I thought, “Well that’s music to my ears.” Um, so those were the big things. I always met with students in the governance committees, where, like IPPC, especially, where there was a strong student presence. And I always got to know the student body president, the SGA President, and some of the other class leaders, from time to time, and made a practice, certainly, I’d say over the last ten years when I was there, of taking members of the cabinet and going to the Student Senate at the beginning of the year and meeting with them and talking with them and hearing what’s on their minds, and, you know, talking about what we were trying to do and all that. But working with the students, the SGA President and some of those students, was always fun and interesting, to see who they were over the years. And then at a certain point we created office hours, President’s Office Hours, and I think Mark is still doing that. And you know, students could just drop by and whatever. Um, and so, and you know, you’d meet students informally, you’d run into them in different contexts. And we had student groups over to Scribner House. Something that Marie and I said from the very beginning is that the College President’s house should be the living room of the college, and we really tried to invite people in, you know, for receptions, and that’s partially why we came up with — and it was really Marie’s idea — Skidmore Cares. We wanted to do a holiday reception as a focal point for building, one point of building community. And we always had student performers there, the a cappella groups. And, I don’t know, there were just a lot of opportunities to kind of get to know students over the years, and that was really fun. For a long time, we had our dog, Summit, a chocolate lab, and of course that’s a great ice breaker with students. And I always had this, this image of taking walks on campus with the dog, and frankly I ended up doing that less than I thought I would, but I brought him on campus to, you know, events when it was appropriate, whenever I could, and of course students loved that because they missed their dogs. So, you know, I loved talking with students. But again, I never taught — well that’s not true, Marie and I did teach a seminar once, we co-taught. 17 �You know she was teaching in Theater for pretty much the whole time we were there, and still is teaching in Theater. Um, we taught a first-year seminar together. It was on leadership in liberal education, and what I always say about it is, the first thing is, well the marriage did survive. So that was a good thing. It was touch and go sometimes, but we did. Um, and because of my responsibilities she ended up bearing a little bit more of the burden of some of the advising and so on, but we tried to share that. And we enjoyed it and we got to know those students really well and one another, and so that was great. But that was the only time we did it. I gave a lecture to the, to the liberal studies students my first year, when it was still a program, and then, so that was that. But every year in the fall we invited all the first-year students over to Scribner House for receptions around the honors code. And you know, with their first-year seminar teachers and all that, and that was something that we did, you know, so we did like three or four of those receptions, or three or four days with two receptions per day, you know, to get them all in. And that was an interaction with students that was a lot of fun. So there was a fair amount of interaction with students. LG: Have you been doing anything of interest that we should know about since you retired? PG: Well, funny you should ask. [laughs] So I talked about the … I do have views about retirement, and you guys are in this, and I really think that the people who have trouble are the ones who retire from something and don’t know what they’re going to do. And this is no … this isn’t rocket-science, but I think this actually is important. And I, so I wanted to retire to something. So, I have an office in town, had to have some place to put all my books and everything, which also was part of saving the marriage. If we hadn’t had that, there’s no way we would still be together, but I wanted to write. And I never found the time that I wanted to write, even as a faculty member, because I was always doing all this other stuff and I never published as much as I wanted to. And, certainly as an administrator, you know, I feel like I was writing all the time, but not … And I gave talks and contributed things to various publications but. Anyway, I wanted to write and I had a couple of books in mind. One that I’d been working on for some time about liberal education and democracy, which is still a work in progress, and I’ve co-authored with that Bob Weisbuch, who is a professional friend and was actually on the Board of Trustees for a period of time while I was President. But I also wanted to take that firstyear address to new students and parents and turn it into a book. You know, a little book of guidance for new students and their parents, because I liked it and I thought it was important and I thought it would be pretty easy to do. — Well, it took two years to do that, and, um, it became longer, of course, and it got organized in slightly different ways and so on, and when some earlier versions were read by some of my colleagues in, you know, different places, and they said, “Well you’ve got to put some student stories in there. You can’t, you know, have all this stuff about what they should do.” And they finally convinced me, so now it has student stories, and from a number of Skidmore students, because they’re the ones I knew, with their permission and their assistance, and they reviewed the stories to make sure I was accurate. But then I put in other stories of other people who were more in the public domain, and so it’s now full of lots of stories. And it’s … I found a literary agent and through his good efforts we found a publisher and it’s being published July the 9th, 2024. So, we’re still working on this book, but it’s um, 18 �so that’s been an odyssey. But I feel good about it. I think it’s … and you know there are a lot of books out there that tell students what to do in college. More than one would think. But I don’t … none of them has been written by a college president, as far as I can tell. And none of them has … this book, the title of the book is called Honor Your … it’s Honor Your Freedom: Winning Strategies to Succeed in College and in Life. And it really talks about more than just how to deal with your naked roommate or Where to Go Find, you know, which is the title of one of the books that’s out there “How to Do Your Laundry When You’ve Never Done it before.” This kind of thing. There’s a lot of practical down-to-earth stuff in there, but it also talks about why liberal education is still important, and by the way, if you think you can succeed in the 21st century workplace with a narrow college education, you’d better think twice. And, by the way, one of the most important purposes of getting a college education is to prepare yourself to be an informed, responsible citizen, which is a phrase that I loved coming from the Skidmore mission statement. And that is not part of our conversation. It’s becoming more of our conversation today, but it really dropped out of the conversation about college in the ’80s and ’90s, much to our detriment. And so there’s that in there. But then it’s “What about freedom? How do you think about it? What is this new freedom you’re experiencing?” And so there’s some talk about that. And, you know, “How do you make plans for your life and how do you carry them out and how do you take care of yourself because, by the way, you are responsible for yourself, your physical and your psychological well-being.” And so there’s a lot about that stuff. And then, um, take good risks. That’s one of the chapters. Earn a victory for humanity, which is something I talked about in those talks. And begin now. Your college career starts when you set foot on campus. LG: Are there any other things that we should, that you want to talk about? That you want to tell us? That we haven’t talked about? PG: Well, let me just say that there are two chapters for parents at the end of the book. So, anyway, that’s my little shilling for the book. Um, so I’m kind of excited about this book and I’m hopeful that it will receive a good reception. Um, anything else? Um …I mean, obviously I’ve sort of talked nonstop here, there’s a lot more of the memory dump that I could give you. You know, one of the things that I think is part of this project, and that you’ve asked people, and that people always ask, you know, “What are you proud of?” And we’ve talked about a lot of those things, and I am proud of what we were able to build. Presidents love to build things because, you know if you put in a new curriculum it will last for a while and then it goes away. That first-year curriculum that I was part of creating at Denison went away, you know, some time ago. It lasted longer than most, but now it’s gone and so there’s no trace of that. But if you build a building, it’s going to be around for a while. So I am, actually … and I do think that spaces, and I said this at the end of the little evening they put together a couple weeks ago about the Glotzbach era, that space, you know, we are physical beings and the spaces we inhabit are important. And Josephine Chase said that in her charge to the architects for the new … new campus, right? And I mean spaces are important in how you construct them. Winston Churchill said we build our buildings and then they build us. And he was dead right on that. And so I was very proud of the work that we did over the years with Zankel, the North Woods residence halls, the Sussman Village residence halls, the redo of the dining facility to 19 �make it not just a feeding station, but a place where community could actually happen. And it’s still, I think, one of the highlights of the campus tour. We redid Saisselin. And then of course CIS. I mean there were other things but CIS … . And the, and the athletic facilities. And I'm glad to see that the College is going forward with the tennis and the wellness thing, and that’s all very good, but CIS was really the biggest need for the college. Part of Skidmore’s reputation, a major part of it, was always that Skidmore was an art school. First of all, it was a women’s school, right? And people were still saying that, right, when I was there. I’m saying, “No, it’s co-ed, and it’s been co-ed since the ’70s, thank you very much.” And “Oh, Skidmore, it’s that art school.” Well, we have great programs in the arts, performing arts, visual arts, very strong. I think the visual arts department … you know, I'd put that up against any visual arts department for any liberal arts college in the country. And, you know, same for music, by the way, I would say that. Theater was always very strong, and so on. Dance, I mean, the dance department is routinely listed as one of the top ten in the country. I mean, this is just amazing, right? That's all there. But of course, there’s so much more to the college. It’s much, much more than just the arts. Great strength in the arts, but strength in all this. And what about our business program? You know, most liberal arts colleges don't have that. And I think our business program is strong and interesting. But science has always been, and you guys know this, has been really important at Skidmore, going back to the nursing program, which is a very science heavy program, which is why it ultimately failed in the end and had to be gotten rid of. LG: Some of that had to do with money, and being down in New York City. PG: Yeah, I mean, that was part of it. But I think that the major reason that it went out of existence is that it was such a science intensive program that a lot of the students who were attracted to that shifted over and went to medical school. I mean, medical schools opened up to women, and, you know, and it's hard to remember that. LG: I remember that. I was here then. PG: Right. Yeah. Now, if you say that to, to nursing school graduates, they get pretty upset because of, “we didn't want to be doctors, we wanted to be nurses.” And that's true. Fair enough. But I think the times changed. And so anyway. But, but Skidmore had always had strong sciences in the, the natural sciences and you know, and then sociology, anthropology, psychology were strong, and physics and chemistry and I mean, the, the physical sciences and the life sciences, biology were strong, but they, they did not have the facilities that reflected the quality of what was going on in there, you know, health and human physiology today. Also, a department I’d stack up with anyone in the country at a small school. I mean it's just amazing. And so, as you guys know, Dana Science was really pretty cool for the ’90s, but it had aged out, and I believe there were some parts to that that were never completed. I think that was part of it. And so it really became clear that we needed to do a major science facility. And when we started talking about it with the faculty, and really the design of this thing came out of the faculty, which is a marvelous process. You know, the idea quickly came about to bring all the sciences together. The physical and biological sciences — put them all in one place so there could 20 �be interactions and synergies and the cross-disciplinary stuff that was, again, so important, that we talked about before. So that was, you know, became a major, major project, as we all know. And I do believe there were times when I was the only person on the planet who actually thought we could do it, because it was a very expensive project, as we all know. And it went through a lot of stages. And Scott McGraw talked about that a little bit at the event the other night, so I won't go through all that now. But, the fact, and when we started fundraising for that, Marie and I would go out and we’d talk to alumni and they’d say, “What do you … what is science? That wasn't really part of my experience when I was at Skidmore. I don't get this. Why are you building?” So we had to talk to a lot of people about how science is integral to liberal education, which was something that I’d always argued and I’ve, you know, gave talks about that when I was a, a Dean and a Vice President at Redlands. And, you know, even going back to Denison days. I mean my interdisciplinary work was generally with psychology and philosophy, biology and so on and so on. And I always thought philosophy was science, you know, that science was always integral to liberal education. And so that was something that, that absolutely had to happen for Skidmore, really to realize its full potential and to make a statement to the world about the strength of the science programs at Skidmore that really are, really quite amazing in all kinds of ways. And so that was a really important goal. If you want to talk about things that I'm proud of and successes, the fact that we got that done, before I left. I mean, funded. It’s not, still not quite finished yet, although I met with Dan Rodecker, I saw Dan Rodecker today at the veterans’ event on campus, and he said that they’re projecting that the renovations in new and old Dana will be finished in June. Which means people can really move back into there, because there was, you know, there were people … you always want to under-promise and overdeliver. So you think, well, you know, maybe that might go into the fall and so on. But he thinks it’s going to be finished in June. So that means that everybody who's going into that complex will be able to be there for the start of the academic year in 2024. And I just think that’s amazing. And we’ll dedicate that complex in the fall of 2024, and that’s going to be a great celebration. So that’s something I’m proud of. LG: Good! PG: I mean, a lot of people did it, and the faculty were amazing. And I'll just tell one other story because it deserves to be in the record. When we identified the architects to build this building, and there were, you know, people who’ve built science buildings all over the place, and colleges and universities, and that's one of the reasons we picked them, we figured they could do it. We said, now you're going to be working with faculty in 11 different departments. 10, 11, whatever it was at the time. And they've been working on planning this thing, and they're going to work with you to, to come up with the design. And they said, “Whoa, we're not sure we can do this. We've never worked with that many people and departments. Are you sure this can happen?” And we said, “Yeah, it'll happen.” And about, I don't know, 5 or 6 months into the process, they were saying, “We've never seen collaboration like this.” And I thought, that's a tribute to the Skidmore science faculty, you know, the people who really … and the way people leaned into the design of that building. One of the things that I said at a very early meeting … and actually I think Karen Kellogg repeated this the other night, is that this building also 21 �needs to ooze creativity out of every pore. This building has to somehow instigate the idea that creative thought matters. And I said, I don't know what that means, but that’s you guys. You need to figure that out. It needs to be a building that fosters creativity. And interdisciplinarity. And I think they came up with one that did that. So that’s something that I think has helped propel Skidmore into, you know, the 21st century. To have that, to have that structure and to be able to bring the sciences together, I think there’s going to be an explosion of creativity that, you know, we’ve not seen before … because of all the synergy that that’s going to create. And you know, that's a really good and exciting thing, and it's already changed the student body because the number of science majors has gone up from, what, 25 to 35%, something like that. It really makes it a more attractive place for everybody because everybody has to do science. It's a place where students gather. They're already in there a lot. It's a place that attracts students like a magnet, whether they're science students or not. So I think that was the last piece, from my watch. LG: Thank you. This has been really very, very instructive and fun. PG: Well, thank you for inviting me. I appreciate the fact that I was able to get these things on the record, and I hope that I was accurate, [laughs] or pretty accurate anyway, in remembering things that happened. But, thank you for doing this project. And I do think it's exciting to have these … LG: It’s been fun! PG: … reminiscences on the record. 22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Glotzbach Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:09:14 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit July 31, 2024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Glotzbach Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 10, 2023 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Phil Glotzbach, Skidmore president from 2003-2020, grew up in the mid-west, received his undergraduate degree in philosophy from Notre Dame and his Ph.D from Yale in 1972. After years as a professor in the philosophy department at Denison, he became department chair, then Vice President for Academic Affairs. At the University of Redlands in Southern California, he was Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. In all these institutions, his interest was in interdisciplinarity and student/faculty/administration interaction which attracted him to Skidmore. He was instrumental in growing the endowment which allowed for funding and building Zankel Hall, the Center for Integrated Sciences and the Northwoods Apartments. Since retirement, Phil has been actively working on a book titled, “Honor Your Freedom: Winning Strategies to Succeed in College and in Life”. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Active Learning Arthur Zankel CIGU College Governance Creative Thought Matters Diversity Encore Connect IPPC NCAA Scribner House Receptions Strategic Plan 2005-2015 Thoroughbred Society https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2725b6a59d80f0e3e7afd07e0be898a5.m4a b620e55b68d82edacc500ad540ec10ae https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/7eb6d06fdef2e97afa4d8420d6210a60.pdf b7e39ef16a649ef49a88990981dd41c1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rimmele Wood, '24 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rachel Clothier Location The location of the interview Zoom (Virtual Interview) Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording (MP4) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rachel Clothier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 2020 Description An account of the resource Rachel Clothier, Corinth Town Historian, talks about general stores in Saratoga County Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clothier, Rachel Wood, Rimmele Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga County (N.Y.) -- History Saratoga County (N.Y.) -- General Stores https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6d804e5636ccc7a7834da36d0b884b85.mp4 88558aafe853fe192134441980c85844 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 27, 2021 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lily deButts Table Of Contents A list of subunits of the resource. 9:08-13:26 -- How she got into history/Saratoga County history 13:26 - 24:00 -- Overview of history of Corinth 13:26 - 16:02 -- Logging / Jessup’s Landing 16:02 - 16:10 -- mention of early immigration 16:40 - 17:55 -- naming / establishment of Corinth 17:55 - 21:00 -- paper industry 21:00 - 22:00 -- small businesses 22:35 - 23:56 -- governor visit / International Paper 23:56 - 26:00 -- more details on small businesses 26:15 - 27:14 -- Snowshoe capital 28:45 - 32:20 -- immigration 32:25 - 33:46 -- strike /strike breaker stigma 34:06 - 35:35 -- Corinth relating to Saratoga county 35:51 - 40:20 -- agriculture / farming 40:36 - 45:00 -- ice harvesting 45:16 - 47:00 -- corinth museum facebook page 47:33 - 48:07 -- Other people to talk to https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a803224a3739fefaeff90ee53d1da6ea.pdf 8227e25bdfca8b537e520b736491090e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lily deButts Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rachel Clothier Location The location of the interview Zoom (Saratoga County) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rachel Clothier (Saratoga County History) https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/df8a91d906626bbb1cdeb4815d337f6d.JPG 03b6821b58b269c174976c82d37cac09 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/66efc2bc0bfa3b59a7f7e5c033ff9e40.mp3 ca8001dcb15f3637e5bb7c023977a5b9 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/940e8ab63875fafa1683cf774b46c282.pdf a9980144472afb6cbf6752e94871a4d5 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e7399152e2d39cb730ab4106b424d39a.pdf d97760f0845d824965cb1cc1a91c9880 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam, Sound and Story Project of the Hudson Valley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ralph Ciancio Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:31.03 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 16/6/2015 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ralph Ciancio Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 16, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Ralph Ciancio was a member of Skidmore’s English faculty 1965-2000 and served as department chair, in addition to his service on numerous important all-college committees. In this interview he talks about challenges and changes in the English department, difficulties faced during Palamountain’s presidency, and the gradual process of developing the Liberal Studies Program - including its influence on enhancing interdisciplinary teaching across the College. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Eileen McAdam Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Skidmore College Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History 4-1-4 Academic Calendar Academic Rigor coeducation David Porter Distribution Requirements Edwin Moseley English Department Eric Weller Faculty Evaluations FIC Financial Instability Liberal Studies Palamountain Salmagundi Student Activism Tripartite Government