8 40 755 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cee189904012d42e913f65260b369648.jpg 12c2ff1f54a09d28b3f5bebca2e6083c https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/adfda45e41a9a3c311b8a807e679b3b9.m4a c987731829282452fc46442e1ce99718 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/872359a985b9a0d63dc4cb09b7140db2.pdf ebc7a69f2a478f5fd4cd2f4cefca500f PDF Text Text Interview with Deb Fernandez by Lynne Gelber & Sue Bender (recording tech), Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, May 28, 2024. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber. It's the 28th of May, 2024, and I'm here with Sue Bender, and we're wanting to interview Debra Fernandez. Debra? DEB FERNANDEZ: Hi Lynne. LG: Welcome. DF: Thank you. LG: Why don't you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and what brought you to Skidmore? DF: Great. I grew up in Tampa, Florida, and this is an interesting, winding story to Skidmore. And I was thinking about this. Probably not something that would happen now, with the current more strictness in hiring, everything that you have to go through. So, I trained with my teacher in Tampa. In about 1980, I moved to New York City, and I got a call from her that said the Brianskys, Oleg and Mireille, who you probably remember, had a ballet summer camp, one of the first people who did that kind of thing, now they're everywhere, at Skidmore. Her name was Haydee Gutierrez, an incredible teacher, and she called and said they need a jazz teacher for their summer program. So, I came up here. I promptly fell in love with Saratoga Springs, which you guys remember in the '80s, what a place. A bunch of characters living here. And I worked for the Brianskys. It went really well, so I spent seven summers coming here to work with them. So, by this point, I got to know the Skidmore faculty. And, lo and behold, I was living in New York, I was a teaching adjunct but (had) a really fun teaching job at Marymount, and I got a call that said there is an opening. And here's the other strange part, I was both a ballet dancer and a jazz dancer, and in those days, that was not common. In those days, you were one or the other, you know? And the two didn't mix. So, I believe it was Elisabeth Carroll's husband, Felix, was leaving, and he was a jazz and a ballet dancer. So, again, back then, they sought to replace what he was doing. Now when we hire somebody new, we don't necessarily try to replace the previous tenured track person. So, I came up and interviewed, and I was driving back to Albany to stay with my friends in Albany, and I got the call as soon as I got back to Albany, offered the job. It was crazy. And I was like, "Oh my gosh." LG: Who interviewed you? DF: The dean was Dean Weller. LG: Oh, Eric. DF: Eric Weller. And here's the other... I hope I can say this on the oral history. Felix did not get tenure, and that's why they were hiring me. Who took me out to my interview dinner? Page 1 of 14 �Felix and Elisabeth. I'm like, "Okay." That's a typical dance department faux pas. But I must say, they were so incredibly gracious. They never mentioned anything. You know, they treated me so beautifully. We went, it was either Eartha's or Court Bistro, and it was the most wonderful meal. And I taught I think it was maybe three different classes. I met with the students, it was great. LG: Okay and what year again? DF: That was 19... I started in the fall of 1990. So, I probably came up that spring, I'm imagining. LG: Good. And you were brought onto teach what? DF: Ballet, jazz. I believe in my first year I taught a lot of different levels of ballet. I definitely taught jazz. That was very popular. My classes were packed that year. I taught jazz 6:30 to 8:30 at night. Now, I'm in bed by 8:00. And they were just packed with all levels. I didn't care who it was, you know, it was just so much fun. It was really great. LG: Now, the dance program was part ofDF: It was part of athletics at that time. So, we were athletics. Were they called exercise science? They've had so many different names. LG: Not yet, I don't think. DF: Not yet. But it was definitely dance and athletics. But I know whatever exercise science was, they were there, because Denise Smith came in the same year with me and we used to be at the meetings. That was a whole process of extricating ourselves and finally becoming a department, which I don't remember what year that was. LG: What was the process of extricating yourself? DF: First, we... Mary DiSanto knows this, or remembers this a lot better than I do. First we just went away from athletics, and it was exercise science and dance. And then we also split and finally became separate departments. But those meetings in the early days were pretty hilarious, you know? Tim Brown was chair of... But you know what's so interesting? It’s that we all went to Tim's Christmas party. All three departments, we were all friends. But at the meetings, we had absolutely nothing in common. So, we knew that we needed to pull away if we were really going to hone the department. LG: Who initiated that? DF: I think Mary and Bea. Isabel Brown. They started to really see, and probably bringing me in too and seeing that I wanted to do much more with performance. And I started choreography. I don't believe choreography was being... That there was a choreography program when I first got here. Most of the performances, as I recall, were parents' Page 2 of 14 �weekend, and they would be during the day. And I know that I was encouraging the department to up the performance to evenings and to do more performances than just parents' weekend. We started the fall, the winter concert, the spring concert. Little by little, I think we became a department very known for performance, but it took a while. LG: Did you work with other departments too? Like theater, for example? DF: I did, because I knew some of the directors. But in those days I remember dancers being pretty isolated to themselves. Not Mary, they did... And Bea, too. LG: Mary DiSanto-Rose? DF: Yeah. They both did, what was it called? What was the first... Where you worked with other departments? The freshman, now it's seniorLG: Oh, liberal studies? DF: Liberal studies. Both Mary and Bea were very active in that. I wasn't. Well, I did teach a Stravinsky Balanchine with Chuck Joseph's, and let me tell you, I was terrible. I had never taught an academic class, I was strictly an artist, but I knew a lot about Balanchine. But I did not know how to teach that kind of a class. Thank god for Chuck, because he was incredible. LG: So, you're starting to touch on work within the interdisciplinary programs. So, what other programs? DF: We really didn't start to work with too many other departments, I'd say, until later, with the exception of LS, because Mary always did that. And I believe I started in the '90s. I worked with Phil Soltanoff, with Carolyn Anderson, and I did a lot of works for the theater. LG: AnythingDF: But other than theater, I didn't work with any other department. LG: Anything that stands out? DF: Yeah, a lot of them. For Carolyn, I actuallyLG: Carolyn Anderson? DF: Carolyn Anderson, I actually wrote the music, the scoreLG: Did you? Page 3 of 14 �DF: ... for the Caucasian Chalk Circle, because I was also a composer, but of course I had to not focus on that, because you have to pick something to put your energy into, but I loved doing it. And Carolyn let me do that, and it was wonderful. Machinal with Phil Soltanoff was terrific, In the Boom Boom Room. We did a lot of shows together. And that led to Phil inviting me to the Williamstown Theatre Festival to work with him, and that was a whole other piece that was really important for me. That was in my 40s, and that was in the '90s. LG: So, there was a building. Most of your performances were either in the danceDF: Either in the studios or in our little theater, which was a temporary facility originally for the theater department. We took it over and it remained, and it still is, our humble little theater. But it was really a very temporary type of building. But, you know what? We grew to love it and it still works. LG: What were the advantages or disadvantages of that building? DF: It's weirdly configured. There's a lot that's not ideal about it, as a theater, but what we did love about it is that it was ours. I liked to teach my classes in there. I did not like to teach choreography in the studio where there was a mirror. So, I liked to teach in the theater. And we could use it whenever we wanted. We started, as we upped our performance schedule, that would've been really complicated to share with another department. Which a lot of colleges have to do, dance and theater share. LG: Right. So, as buildings got built, how did that affect your program? DF: The one thing that I think about, and I wonder what it would be like now, had we made a different decision, when President Glotzbach had his eyes on the Arts Quad, you know the theater, the Zankel, they invited dance to be part of that, and I believe they were going to redo Filene. Well, after a lot of conversation, it would've been wonderful to be over there with everybody, but we were just a little bit afraid that whatever got built would also not be ideal, maybe in a different way, or that we'd have to share that. So, we just decided to stay put. And our concerts sell out, probably we could have a bigger house, but it's fine. It's a college dance program, and the students get to use the theater. I think we probably did the right thing. What we have been gunning for, for as long as I was chair, and I was chair for 11 years and, I believe, they're still gunning forLG: Do you remember what years those were, that you were chairing the department? DF: Well, let's see. I retired in '21, and I was chair for 11 years, so probably I took over around 2009 or '10? Something like that. And we really wanted to get that intermural gym, because it's the crossing point from the theater to the two studios. We've never been able to swing it, but I think if we could get that intermural gym and divide it up into more studios with offices, it would be much more cohesive. But at this point, what I've heard is that now that exercise science or health... Their new name, health and exercise science, I think? They're moving to the new science building. Page 4 of 14 �Finally, our dance faculty are going to go into the offices where Jeff and Denise Smith and Jeff Segrave, the main offices. So, we were always in these little closets. They're going to have windows, finally! After 40 years! LG: So, did the Tang have any influence on the programs that you did? DF: Huge, I would say, and the Tang was another interesting timing, because up till that point, I was not chair yet, and I still had a working relationship with Phil Soltanoff, and he had a company in New York. So, I would go to New York almost every weekend, so I still had a place there. So, I was always kind of back and forth. It wasn't that I wasn't giving my all to Skidmore, I was, but I was still very professionally motivated to be in New York. Then 9/11 happened, and I was living in a loft, I had a part-time share in a loft, downtown New York, and I thought, "This is it. It's time to go." And then the Tang opened. So, it was so perfectly aligned for me. And I met Ian, and we did the first opening with David Porter, the wonderful David Porter. Mary, it wasLG: Mary? DF: DiSanto-Rose. Yeah, it was Mary and I. She did a piece, Erik Satie, David played, of course, and then I did the John Cage piece. So, Ian and I hit it off right away, and the Tang just became a second home to me. So, that was very beautifully timed, because I had now this incredible new venue. Not only a venue, but the amazing artists that Ian linked me up with to collaborate. So, it was great. It was like, "Well, I can't go to New York anymore." But, in a lot of ways, New York is coming to me. LG: Came to you. DF: Yeah, or coming to the Tang. LG: What space did you use? SUE BENDER: Could you describe one of those collaborations? LG: Yes, that's what I was getting at. DF: Yes, absolutely. The Cage piece, I have such a funny story about the Cage piece. And for anybody that will listen to this that doesn't know who John Cage is, he was very much the creator of... I'm sure everybody does at Skidmore but, you know, the whole... The happenings, the spontaneity, the crazy throwing things together and seeing what happens. So, we did the Sonatas and Interludes, Margo Mensing was my visual collaborator, and she just did an incredible job. She made these nine, I believe it was nine-sided maps that people would open when they came to the performance, so they would know where they could go. So, in the map, we also copied things from John Cage's book, Silence. And there was this one sheet that said, you know I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like, "Three minutes, cough. 20 minutes, stomp on the floor." So, we're in the performance, and all of the sudden we hear all of this coughing, and then later we hear all this Page 5 of 14 �stomping, and Margo and I are looking at each other like, in a panic, and David's playing this very quiet music. LG: David Porter? DF: Porter. And we're like, "What is going on?" Suddenly we remember that that's part of the map. So, after the show, let me just say that President Porter was not happy. So, we had this big collaborative talk in the room, and I said, "You know, you guys, it strikes me that I can understand why David is upset, because he's in the middle of playing, but this is about as John Cage as you could get. This thing we never knew would happen that became actually kind of a riot." And I'll give it to David, he was like, "You know what? You're right. Let's stick with it." LG: Whose ideaDF: It was amazing. LG: So, who was directing that? DF: I would say that I was the director for the most part. Margo was too. Not of the people, we collaborated on the ideas. As far as the actors, because I brought in actors from New York too, and this very funny kid, Phil Restino, he's walking around, mopping. He's one of those people that, you don't know why, but when you look at him you start laughing. You know, that kind of thing? So, he's just in the background mopping, and people are laughing. It just was so free, and so delightfully fun. Ian's little girl, now she's a grown woman, I think she's a doctor, there was kind of a... And we had flower pots everywhere, and there was this kind of very quiet... I think she was three years old. And all of a sudden, Fiona walks out with a little watering can, and she waters the flower. And everyone in the audience just went, "Aww." So, there was all this... Margo had toasters everywhere and she'd put bread in. People started taking the toast out and trying to feed the dancers. It was wild, but also very beautiful. So, I fell in love with the freedom that came. And I will say one thing for Ian, not one thing, I could say many things about Ian, but he is an amazing producer. He gives the artist so much leeway. Everything is a yes until it can't be, but he doesn't start with a no. A yes, it was just a great amount of creative leeway. It was wonderful. LG: So, what space in the Tang were you using? DF: We used, for the Cage piece, we used almost everywhere. Downstairs, we used the vestibules, the glass... Those were beautiful. We used the upstairs. That's why we knew we needed that map, because otherwise people would just feel too lost. The map gave them a little bit of instruction, but they could unwind the map and that's where the chance came in. They didn't have to follow a strict... Margo was very brilliant too with that creation. Page 6 of 14 �Then, I ended up doing, I was counting, I think it was either six or seven full length works for the Tang from that time till when I retired. The last one being, I think, maybe 2014, which was called Doubling, and that was with David, the composer David Lang's show. And So Percussion came to play. I believe that was the last one. LG: Did you work with any other departments? DF: Let me think about that for a second. No, I don't think so. I think it was usually just the artists that I was assigned at the Tang. I worked with a painter, Paul Henry Ramirez. We did Balls, that was also another one. That was a lot of fun, and also kind of wild. Yeah, So Percussion was David Lang. Partying I did all on my own, although I did use a lot of actors in that piece. So, it wasn't a collaboration with the faculty, but with the kids. I used a lot of actors from theater. LG: And the actors that youLG: ... were able to call on? DF: From the theater department? Oh, what I liked to do when I did the shows at the Tang, I would do my top group of students, and then I would bring in professionals, like maybe two dancers and maybe a few actors. I always peppered it with people that I had been working with in New York. LG: Okay, that's what I was thinking. DF: Yeah, and it was great for the students, because they got a big boost from that. LG: So, what were your biggest challenges? DF: From the get go or just throughout the whole... I don't know how much time we have. LG: Just go for it. DF: Maybe I'm being rose-colored glasses looking at the past, but there were not a lot of challenges. What I also want to say, Bea was my chair for quite a while, and then it was Mary. Mary was the program director and then later chair for like 25 years. You know, she really did her service. What I loved about the department, and I'm sure a lot of other departments might have seen it as way too loosey-goosey, but I always felt that Mary and the entire department supported me in whatever changes I wanted to make in my approach or my career, or the things I was teaching. And it was really quite a freeing atmosphere, you know? Because I started out as more technique. And then as I grew older, and I grew more into my creative work, I was much more involved in the choreography process, in more experimental things. And I was just supported, 100%. I'm a huge Skidmore fan. My department supported me, the administration supported me. LG: Had you been doing choreography before you came to Skidmore? Page 7 of 14 �DF: Yes, yes. So, I'm sure there's some challenges in there, but to me, it was a very stable time. As I were telling you guys before the tape started rolling, we all got there in the '90s, and we all just retired. So, the original crew of Denise Limoli, Mary DiSanto-Rose, Isabel was the first one to retire, Mary Harney, Lori Dawson, our tech director, Carl Landa, our musician. We were there for so long that it provided such a stability for the students, that that's something that I don't think is probably happening right now. I think it will, but right now it's more in flux since all the, as I call it, the old ladies have exited the building. But it was a very family atmosphere, and that can be good and bad. And that's what I think the younger group, that has come in now, has cleaned that up a lot. So, again, there's always a good side to something, and there's always something that could be improved. But it was quite a family atmosphere. SB: Can you describe a little bit more what you mean by a family atmosphere? DF: Yes. And I'm sure this happened in the past, before things became so much stricter in many other departments, but we would hang out with the students. We were not only their teachers, we were their mentors, in some cases friends. I still have those friends. Some people have said to me, "Yes, I go to all my students' weddings." And I said, "Yeah, and I've also now gone through all my students' divorces." That's how long I've been friends with them. They write me and I find out they're turning 50 and I'm like, "Oh my god." We're still close. LG: Are any of them professional dancers? DF: Yes, and doing very well. They're professional choreographers. LG: Who? DF: Emily Pacilio, Emily Craver. These aren't names that everybody will know, but Caitlin Trainor's doing beautifully as a choreographer in New York. Alana Jacobs is in New Orleans doing great stuff. Kaitlin Guerin lives in New Orleans, she's a dancer and has started her own... What is it when you make the desserts? Oh my god, senior moment. LG: Pastry chef? DF: Yes, she's a pastry chef, thank you. And she's in New Orleans, she's got her own business. And so she was later than Alana, so I got them together. They now work together. It's just great. And there was also a family feeling in the department, too, among the faculty. And again, that doesn't, as you know very well with families, that doesn't mean you're always getting along. There's problems with that too, but I do think that we felt that way. If that answers your question, Sue. LG: Yeah, what were some of the disputes, though? DF: The disputes? They weren't so much about policy or the program. I think it would mostly just be the petty, annoying, personal stuff. Page 8 of 14 �LG: Oh, okay. DF: Because really we didn't have that many disputes about the policy until our two new colleagues came in and said, "Hey, okay, you guys, we got to tighten this ship up a little bit." And they've been wonderful. That's Jason Ohlberg and Sarah DiPasquale. I hired them, I think it must've been four years before I retired, so I had some good time to mentor them and they're incredible, and they've taught me a lot, and they've been fabulous at redoing some of the work that we needed to do. SB: What hiring process did you use when you were hiring? DF: You mean in terms of how did we advertise it or how did weSB: Yeah. DF: We went through pretty much the normal channels, and then I think it was a pretty normal hiring process. Probably... I don't know if... Let me think. I'm thinking about Jason. Sarah was already on our faculty, and she was one of those people that was adjunct and I'm like, "This one is a winner. She's great, she's going definitely be in administration some day." I could see that in her. She's a physical therapist so, at that moment, dance science, it was called, which I kind of have a problem with that term, but what I saw was that in universities and in academia, they were really starting to bring in research, more anatomical, and we were not really like that. We were more about creativity and music and events. So, I said, "We really need to focus on Sarah and bringing that out of her." So, she applied. She was perfect for the job. But at the same time, Jason Ohlberg showed up, and I could see that he was incredible, and I did not want to lose him. And I'll give Beau Breslin credit for this. I begged Beau to let me hire both, and he could see that, eventually, the rest of the ladies were going to retire too. He said, "Let's get them both now." So, it worked so well because, sure enough, we all left within... I think Mary, maybe Denise was first, then Mary, then myself, then Mary Harney, and then this year Lori Dawson left. So, it was very good of Beau. LG: Do you want to talk about what you've been doing since you retired? DF: Yes, and it's really been amazing. Last August, I think, I started just working with tracing. Those pandemic years, where we just stayed home so much, and we were looking for stuff to do. It was post-pandemic but I still was staying at home. I'm like, "Okay, what's wrong with this picture?" But I started tracing just to give my... I missed choreography, in terms of just that wonderful play of moving people around, and spending a few hours just playing with form, and I didn't have that in my life anymore. I was still teaching online. I'm teaching a yoga class online, and I've done Motion is Lotion for the retirees, I think, three or four times, but I wasn't choreographing. So, I started doing... I'm not a visual artist, I started just tracing just to get my hands to draw shapes. LG: When you say tracing, explain that a little bit. Page 9 of 14 �DF: Tracing, I just had like tracing paper and a book of leaves, and I would just take a pencil and trace them. And then one day, I don't even know why, I just cut them out and started pasting them on paper, and this collage work started to blossom. And I actually brought some stuff to show you guys. And they were pretty bad at first, but they just kept pouring out. And everybody that's seen them, (I post them on Facebook, I haven't had an exhibition yet, but I'm going to work on that,) have said, especially my former students, "Deb, it's so funny how this looks so much like your dances." So, that was nice. I recognize that I was able to sort of substitute something that was filling that need for shapes, to move shapes around. And it's really fun, because I cut them out and I just lay them on the table. There's no prethought about what the image is going to be, which is what reminds me of the choreography. And so I just start taking them and moving the shapes around, just like I would make a dance. So, it's also a lot easier than working with dancers. That paper does not argue with you. LG: At the point where COVID came in, you then began to teach dance on Zoom. Talk about that a little bit. DF: Yes. LG: Very interesting problems that occur, and have youDF: I'm so glad you reminded me of that, because I was going to do phased retirement. And my last semester I was on sabbatical, spring of 2020, so my last semester, I didn't know it was my last, because I decided suddenly to retire, but fall of 2019... No, fall of '20, sorry. I was on sabbatical in '21. Fall of '20, when COVID was around, they're like, "You're teaching choreography and you're teaching it online." And I'm like, "What? How's that going to work?" I was so used to my methods that I used in the theater and working right there in the moment. It turned out to be such a learning experience for me. And I'm sure it's part of what has influenced this visual art, because I started to separate myself from that density of the bodies, in close proximity. We had a camera in each studio, because I didn't want too many people being around each other, so we had both studios, we had a camera. And it was like The Wizard of Oz, there I was, up on the big screen, in both studios, giving them instructions. And I would watch them work, so it really wasn't that different. And then what they did was they had to film, instead of doing dance in the theater, they did everything outside and they filmed it, and we ended up having a film on Zoom, our showing was on Zoom, they showed their films, their films were beautiful. We used the Tang, we used all sorts of site-specific locations which, by that point, having done so much site-specific work, thank goodness, I felt very comfortable with that, and I knew how to instruct them. And I would just do these very simple... I would start with these basic compositional kind of fundamentals, like make 10 shapes with your hands. Now, put that in your feet. It all had to be from the intellect but they would transfer it through their bodies. So, it was really fascinating for me. Page 10 of 14 �So, that was my last semester teaching. '21 came around, I was on sabbatical, and I thought, "You know what? I think I just did phased retirement." And I decided, there's no reason, I'm done. So, I let the department know, and then I left at the end of '21. But I'm so glad I got that opportunity to do the teaching during COVID. It was fascinating. SB: When you're teaching people that you don't see in adjoiningDF: Spaces? SB: ... spaces, what's that like? Is that different? DF: It was very different, and it was different... I'm sure it was more challenging for the students than it was for me, because I kind of, like I said, I was kind of the overseer, just watching everything. But it was hard for them to ask me a question. You know, there were those little technical glitches. But we would always, I said, you know, "Come on Zoom anytime and we'll talk one-on-one." It worked out. But it was very different. Again, I think it was good training for everyone, because there was much more of an independence that had to be owned, rather than me always in the theater right on top of them, and I could be very, shall we say bossy? So, I stepped away a little bit. SB: It may have, I'm just speaking from personal experience, made the person on the other side listening to you be more aware of the space between him or herself and the screen. DF: Yes. SB: And be more interactive, and moving forward and moving around. DF: Yes, absolutely. And also they couldn't be too close to each otherSB: Right. DF: ... because they were still masked. So, it was almost like, I don't know, one of these COVID sayings, "alone together", comes to mind. That's kind of how it was. They were in the room, but more alone, but they could look around and see the other people. It was challenging, there's a challenge. But we did it. And my biggest concern was that they... Or, not my concern, the biggest, most important thing for me is that they did good work. Not now in Skidmore necessarily, but I think there's much more of a hand-holding mentality. I grew up with teachers that it was all about doing good work, they didn't really care if you were nurtured. And that's kind of how it felt. LG: Do you want to talk a little bit about the changes that you saw in the college itself in the time that you were at Skidmore? DF: Mm-hmm. The great changes, as I mentioned earlier to you, Lynne, I think that the Tang Museum, and I don't know if all faculty members share my... I'm sure they don't. The Tang Museum and the Zankel, I think, just upped Skidmore's game tremendously. I Page 11 of 14 �always respected Skidmore. I thought it was a great school, every professor that I came in contact with I learned so much from, I thought they were wonderful. But I think the Tang and the Zankel really were just phenomenal additions. On a personal note, and I'm sure a lot of this is nostalgiaLG: Excuse me, butDF: Yeah? LG: ... did you use the Zankel at all? DF: I sure did. I was the inaugural performance in the Zankel through Marie Glotzbach. It was Arts Fest, and it was the collaboration I did with Richard Danielpour, “Swan Song”. And I'll never forget that; sitting in the Zankel, watching a music concert, the curtains were open so you could see outside, and it was one of those moments where it was the lightning bolt. I'm like, "That's the piece. It's going to be outside and inside." And it was just such a beautiful event. And then I repeated the “Sonatas and Interludes”, the Cage piece with David Porter and Margo, in the Zankel. A whole different thing. It was a stage piece, not a happening, but that was the last piece that I did there. The changes, Lynne, that... And my point about nostalgia, and I'm sure everybody feels this, because I remember Jeff Segrave used to talk about his friend, I can't remember his name, who left and how they used to always go out on Fridays. There was a very collegial feeling, which I'm sure you guys remember, you probably... I'm seeing you agree with me. I don't see... I went to every person who retired, I went to that at the Tang to hear them be toasted. I don't think that kind of... I'll just say it, I don't think the collegiality is necessarily the same anymore. It might be different, and I'm not part of it, so it might have taken on a different kind, but collegiality as I know it, you know? That kind of we all went to meetings in person, you know? So, I see that not as a great change. But again, I'm not there, I can't really say. It might be just fine for the people who are there now. It is what it is for them. LG: What about the composition of the undergraduate population? DF: That I don't know. I don't know. Can you tell me more about what you're getting at? LG: Well, it just seems a very diverse population now, in comparison to decades ago. DF: That is probably true. Although, it's very interesting, because I was looking back at some of my older pieces. I had a lot of students of color in my original jazz works. LG: Right. DF: A lot. And again, those are people that I'm still dear friends with to this day. So, for me, in the dance department, it didn't feel that different. LG: Okay, that's quite helpful. Page 12 of 14 �DF: The students thought it was, but I kept trying to tell them, "You don't know enough about the history of the department." We did get thrown under the bus. We had a pretty contentious, before I left, there was a pretty contentious period with the students. But, again, I said, "I don't think you guys did your homework." Because I went back and showed them the list of faculty of color that we hired for sabbatical, guest artists. We constantly had that going on. But there was a lot of anger in that. I guess it wasLG: Coming from the students? DF: Yeah. But, you know, it went through the whole campus. It was probably couple of years b efore I retired, so it probably started, I don't know, 2017 it seemed to start heating up? LG: Okay. DF: I could be wrong about that. LG: And the basic problem was? DF: They were complaining that there wasn't enough diversity, which I agree with, but we had had that, they just weren't aware of it. It was just kind of this weird lull. So, I think that's been addressed, thankfully. I also think, in general, the students were just angry and frustrated, and especially during COVID. There were a lot of emotions that probably got dispensed into areas... I don't know. I do know that it was a hard time for me because I was chair, and that was difficult. And that's part of why I think I was like, "I think it's time for the youngsters to take over. It's time for me to go." It's nice to know when to exit the party. I love it that Sarah DiPasquale, who's been an amazing chair, she took the job after me and she said, when I told her I was leaving, she thought about it for a few days, and she called back, she said, "Okay Deb, you're like Seinfeld. You're going out on top." So, now she calls me Jerry. LG: Is there anything else that we should cover that we haven't? DF: Let me think. Well, you know, I guess the one thing I want to say is that everything ebbs and flows and changes depending on who's in the department. It is a very different department now. Now, unfortunately, I'm now... Fortunately, I'm a snowbird; unfortunately, I can't get to all the concerts because I'm not here. But I'm still very close to Jason and Sarah, and I hear everything. And Erika Pujic, who's wonderful. It's just very different, and I have really let go. And I think that that was something that Jason said to me, he's like, "I've been very surprised, Deb, at how you've been able to just walk away." And I said, "Hey, it's your show now. You get to do what you believe in." LG: And when you say it's different, what do you mean? DF: I think it's less... I was always very performance-driven. And I think that the students learned a lot from me if they wanted to watch me do what I wanted to do. You know? Page 13 of 14 �They came along and they learned because I always felt we teach what we want to learn. Because if you're passionate about what you're learning, you're going to be passionate about teaching it. So, it was very performance-driven and very artistically... Now there's... And I knew we needed this, that's why I wanted Sarah, why we all wanted Sarah, not just me, the whole department, it's very research-driven. There's a lot of dance science going on, anatomy, Jason is amazing in the dance history classes. I would say it's more well-rounded, I think, but I don't think it has the same performance drive. Maybe they'll get there. LG: Good. DF: Yeah, but they're doing a great job, and like I said, I'm not going to have the ridiculous job of trying to compare it, because it can't. Department is who's in the room, who's in the building. And it has to be, we're human beings. So, I just wish them all the best, and I love the department, I still love Skidmore, and I hope it's still a good place. LG: I think it is. DF: Okay, good. LG: Thank you. DF: Thank you, guys. This was fun. Page 14 of 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Deborah Fernandez Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 43:22 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Deborah Fernandez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 28, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Debra Fernandez began at Skidmore in 1990 after working in dance and theater in New York City and, for many years, at the Briansky summer dance program in Saratoga. She served as teacher, choreographer, performance director and Dance Department Chair. In this interview she discusses collegiality, diversity, dance science and development of the dance program into a department. Deb also explores her experience teaching dance during COVID, the influence of the Tang and Zankel on her work at Skidmore as well as some of the performances she directed. She retired in 2021. https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/33a9c1282b5735ef4c8d41b1f4ace17b.JPG e0c26cba99a47eb0fe48eeba38394c39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Don McCormack Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/18/2014 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eileen McAdam https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f76b79377ef4c3712df693ad448373a7.mp3 93976de11c07153791ae3c90fcbac015 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d4b815a6eea3e67face4fb62ac1a4f2f.pdf c24dfb564ca69a677c8b870d58413e85 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/566fbb6e717d9acdb9725d5c1ed45894.pdf 202e3da57fd8ab1f2b24a4b992b9d54c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam, Sound and Story Project of the Hudson Valley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Don McCormack, Director, Special Programs (Years) Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 45:00 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit November 30, 2018 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Don McCormack Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 18, 2014 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Don McCormack, held a variety of roles at Skidmore from 1970-2005 (Faculty in the Government Department, Director of the University Without Walls program, Dean of Special Programs). In this interview he talks about the spirit of campus in the 1970’s with large gatherings of students, faculty, community members and visitors at his house and the Tin & Lint bar; University Without Walls, including teaching in the Great Meadow Correctional Facility; and starting Skidmore’s Jazz Institute. Boys Choir of Harlem Jazz Institute Tint & Lint Bar UWW https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2fc93b3e6157a930e8ffa08fcb6e78dd.png dbcc612dbbc2df743200077e9a390e8e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d313d9143388f99bd63787eeaf548bf8.mp3 0e86f11a531aa5615c4cdde8b6892e80 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/15be95dd6f108a50094fb144222def95.mp3 e3148292b0095d1a77b998f992fc0519 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e0edccae347b859ed50ec17d1c60bbdc.pdf cf0a4d6e6628e302568d61e0e2c0f9f0 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c468fb28eb29e5688a547a49a143aef1.pdf 255ed40c497818e0dffda4ea4657e15d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Langyintuo, Kevin Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daley, Donald Location The location of the interview Zoom ( Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Kevin Langyintuo Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 13/11/2020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donald Daley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Langyintuo Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kevin Langyintuo Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Skidmore College Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Mp4 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 2, 2020 November 14, 2020 Description An account of the resource This Oral History is a retelling of World War II Veteran Donald Daleys life from the man himself. He recounts his childhood, his first job, enlisting for the war with friends and his later life. Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Abstract A summary of the resource. This is the Oral history of Korean war Veteran Donald Daley. Facilitated by the Saratoga Springs Senior Center, we cover Mr. Daley's life from Childhood all the way to retirement. Baseball basketball Korean War Mechanicville Oral hisotry saratoga senior center Vetran https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/748554e93a20a2c92cf3b21a9dfba295.png 4913b70da521bd9c0072cdee7b2152ec Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dora Daley https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4dd06166e4e45cf7afed7dbb313f5a76.mp3 27d5f2ba820b87c7eb64ee444859a8af https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/bfb881fa70c9843716140ed8b872531c.mp3 86ef23ce24c783fa402d5fcd4d31bab9 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d9eb2795d37e727f80b23ec32338b447.pdf 47e25a35b5e2dea45a1d84dd936edbb1 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1d3049984c6f7c8be345c4f28661637b.pdf 44d424a573dddf552f141de620f16d61 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/10cfb0c43b48723d4dc861b03c41508f.pdf 7570344b29b17da9f088284b63e9b1b9 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4e0a60a9553c61ed801200073a0cecb8.pdf bef3040bab495d4811821378145c0b54 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview James Eason, Lois Celeste Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dora Daley Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Zoom meeting Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:12:84 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College (Zoom), Saratoga Springs (Zoom) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Attached Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview Attached Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. James Eason Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 11/18/20 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dora Daley Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 30, 2020 November 14, 2020 Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Eason Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource James Eason Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Mp4 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Abstract A summary of the resource. This is a interview with Dora Daley through the Saratoga Springs Senior Center about her life spanning from childhood to recent years. Description An account of the resource Dora Daley is a lifetime resident of Saratoga County. In this interview, she describes how In her youth she worked at a newspaper and as a young adult she worked at the paper mill in Mechanicsville. She left work to raise her children. Dora has then surrounded herself with a large, close, and caring family. oral history fall 2020 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/715dfe378e724755269c14479a0ed997.jpg c0cfe1a3511d9eb1ea6a72868979dad4 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2a64abe0904f1b23ab55f655b1a1d5f9.mp3 3181ae5dc23a0fb0a868739603a20c1b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Flurry Festival Description An account of the resource The Flurry Festival is a three day music and dance Festival that takes place in Saratoga Springs in February. The festival holds workshops, performances, dances, and jam sessions in the city center and throughout the town. The Flurry first started as a dance festival for contra dancing but has expanded to musicians and spans all genres of music and dance as well as encompassing family friendly events such as storytelling. Language A language of the resource English Subject The topic of the resource The Flurry Festival Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Davies, Clara-Sophia Daly, Dustin Foote, Amanda Muir, Tess Olcott, Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wav file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dustin Foote Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Douglas C. Haller Location The location of the interview Residence of Interviewee Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:14 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Dustin Foote Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/12/2016 Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview Interviewer: Dustin Foote Interviewee: Doug Haller Log Notes 00:00-00:29 Header 00:30-02:30 Doug talks about background in Schenectady 03:00-04:17 After Doug divorces his first wife, he discovers his passion of contra dancing 04:20-08:24 Description and history of contra dancing 08:32-10:10 Describes his first experience at the flurry 10:25-10:56 “contradancing was a great opportunity to meet new people and make new friends” 11:15-12:45 Pervasiveness of contradancing across the country 12:53-14:09 Doug meets his second wife contradancing 14:10-17:36 Diverse styles of dancing at the flurry; Paul Rosenburg mentioned 17:47-20:40 Doug speaks of the different roles he has had on the flurry administration 20:40-21:59 Current administrative roles in the flurry 22:00-24:17 What kind of people attend the flurry? 24:36-26:54 What keeps Doug coming back to the flurry? “I think the flurry helps the world become a better place, just for a little bit of time.” 27:19-31:43 Doug gives a personal anecdote on why the flurry is so significant. “It would be nice if the world were more like the flurry the rest of the year.” 31:44-32:31 What would you tell your 1992 self about this festival 32:37-38:55 Doug talks about being the administrative director of the flurry during a power outage, mentions the community response. “these people are not going to let you fail, and they didn’t” 36:20-37:07 How the flurry ended up in Saratoga 39:05-40:00 What do you want the future of the flurry to look like? 40:23-41:09 Doug’s final thoughts on involvement in the flurry festival Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Doug Haller Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/3/2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. The Flurry Festival Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS113A: Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College. Description An account of the resource Interview with Doug Haller, ex-Administrative Director of the Flurry Festival. Topics include the development of the festival and Doug's experiences organizing the Flurry. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dustin Foote Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wav file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 12/3/16 Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga Springs -- Flurry Festival -- History dance Doug Haller Flurry music oral history Saratoga Springs The Flurry Festival https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e2425b9e90ff34ab4cc4776b75d1c9a1.mp3 f91e4007edf2afbbd2edb20d3e82d5fa https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/964c8d924ad235110cf1d7424e1c6d6d.pdf e30086912c1fda5fd852668d9062b97e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Joseph Bruchac Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 28, 2021 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga County History Project in Collaboration with the Brookside Museum Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Zoom Interview Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grace Beneke '22 Mattie Saulnier '21 Subject The topic of the resource Native American History Abstract A summary of the resource. Interview with historian and storyteller Dr. Joseph Bruchac of Greenfield Center, New York, conducted by Grace Beneke and Mattie Saulnier. Dr. Bruchac shared his knowledge on northeastern Native American history, focusing specifically on the Mohawk, Mohican, and Abenaki peoples, whose true presence and influence on Saratoga County history has been obscured by politics and scholarship. Some key topics covered include Native involvement in the Revolutionary War, local industry, and transportation, as well a traditional Mohawk story about Saratoga Lake. Abenaki everyday life industry Mohawk Mohican native american people transportation https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d743e91f9566c6e55b0cba610add53b7.jpeg 3d98fc62ec314988c78ca1a1243bc67d https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1084882b66cbd761290b7a1661ee407e.mp3 b46009ebfd325f4e5f8f7e8d7dd1f208 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/35b50e42c3c9f851b0c80862caa0a45c.pdf 7bbf333574eea983b37554a49861dde9 PDF Text Text Narrator: Eileen Sperry Interviewer: Sophia Delohery Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: April 7, 2023 Sophia [00:00:01] Today's date is April 7th, 2023. My name is Sophia Delohery. Eileen [00:00:11] I'm Eileen Sperry. Sophia [00:00:12] And here we go. So, Eileen, can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up? Eileen [00:00:18] I grew up in upstate New York. I'm an upstate New York native. I grew up in a small kind of rural farming town called Harpursville, which is about halfway between Oneonta and Binghamton. Sophia [00:00:29] Oh, cool. Sophia [00:00:30] That's awesome. And can you tell me a little bit about where you, just your school experience, like, beginning school and then secondary school. Eileen [00:00:41] Mm-hm. Started school in a sort of more suburban school district. Then my family had moved out to Harpursville, and so I went to this, the local high school all the way through the local public school. It's a really small school district, and so it was really intimate. My graduating class was sixty-three people, many of whom I'm still friends with, right. So it was a very small, kind of tight knit community growing up. And I went there all the way through high school. I went to NYU for my undergrad. I was, I had had enough of living in a small kind of rural town, and I, like, desperately wanted to get out and live in the city and sort of be in a big school environment. So I moved to New York and I went to NYU. Sophia [00:01:29] Yeah, that's definitely a big transition. Eileen [00:01:31] Yeah. Sophia [00:01:33] That's nice that you had like a good community, though. Uh, but did you find that going to NYU, like, changed that for you? Like, was it easy to find community there as well? Eileen [00:01:44] It was. I gravitated towards other people who I think had similar experiences like my, my kind of close group of friends ended up becoming, you know, people who had been in a similar place of like they had grown up in smaller schools or they had grown up working class. They had grown up in, in poorer communities who like all like me, really loved being in the city and really loved being at the school, but who also felt moments of estrangement, like not part of the kind of rich kid crowd or the private school crowd, like feeling both belonging and a kind of sense of being an outsider. Sophia [00:02:24] Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's, that's an experience that a lot of people go through making that transition, and it's nice that you guys, like, gravitated towards each other then to find that community. Eileen [00:02:35] Yeah. �Eileen [00:02:36] Yeah. I think that that was that was one of the things that really sustained me. Sophia [00:02:39] Yeah, that makes sense. And so what were you studying at school? Eileen [00:02:45] I was studying, I initially thought that I was going to be a major in a program that NYU had at the time called Language and Mind, which was a combination of linguistics and psychology and neuro linguistics. And then I remember that I was not great at math, and it was a lot of math. And I had taken an English class my freshman year as well, and I fell in love with the English major. And so I declared early on and I stayed an English major for the rest of my time there I minored in linguistics. I had a real love for the linguistics program, just not so much the psych in the stats and the hard science. Yeah. Sophia [00:03:21] Yeah, that's very valid. So did you go to school at any place post-NYU? Eileen [00:03:29] Mm-hm, I went from NYU, I did my master's degree in English at Binghamton University, and then I did my Ph.D. at Stony Brook University out on Long Island. Sophia [00:03:39] Oh, nice. So a lot of staying in, like, at least the New York state. Eileen [00:03:44] Yeah. You know, my, my now husband, my boyfriend at the time, he and I started dating in high school, and we both went to separate colleges, but we sort of stayed in the same geographical area as a way of staying connected to one another. I still had really close connections to my community and to my family, and I sort of never was possessed with the desire to, like, run away to California or move across the country. I wanted to stay relatively close. I also had a recurring summer job at a summer camp back near where I grew up, and so I would go back there for the summers, so it was nice to be able to stay relatively close. Sophia [00:04:19] Yeah. Sophia [00:04:20] So it sounds like you are someone who's, like, really rooted in community then, like, it seems like you've, like, sought that out in the different places you've gone. Eileen [00:04:30] Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot recently, actually. That I think, especially from those early moments in high school that we, you know, it was not I never had a schooling experience growing up where you were always sort of encountering new communities. You know, I had heard from friends who had gone to bigger schools that, you know, you could sort of abandon one friend group and find another one or you were transitioning schools. And for us, it was the same. It was the same people the whole way through. And so I became really attached to these ideas of, like, forming deep bonds and deep community. And then that has extended, I think, to a lot of other places in my life that I've, like, privileged forming these big communities and sort of these deep relationships. Sophia [00:05:10] Yeah, that's interesting as you kind of move into the topic of labor organizing, I think community comes up a lot when people talk about that kind of stuff. Eileen [00:05:18] Yeah. �Sophia [00:05:20] But kind of in that same vein, was there anything in your, like, schooling or growing up experience that kind of portended, like, an interest in labor organizing for you? Eileen [00:05:30] My, my freshman year at NYU, we arrived. I had been there maybe four or five weeks, and the graduate students began a union campaign. They had filed for unionization and they were working towards, I believe at the time they were working towards their first bargaining agreement. And so they went on strike. And so many of my classes, because it was a big university, many of my classes were taught by graduate students or I was in a big lecture and the recitation session was taught by a graduate student and they all went on strike. And many of my professors were incredibly supportive of their graduate students and so refused to cross picket lines. And so as a freshman, you know, I had one class that moved to like the Marxist community school organizing space like halfway across Manhattan. So like every week I had to, like, grab my backpack and trek twenty blocks away to go to class. But it was this really early exposure to like labor in academia, right? Like seeing and hearing the graduate students say really clearly, I love my job, I love the work that I do, I love my students, but I have to be able to, to live here. I have to build to support myself and have a life, and that's equally important. And seeing the solidarity from other professors who were saying like, yes, our graduate students are important. They're one of the things that make this university work. It doesn't work without them. We have to be in support of them. And so seeing how much that was an early reminder or an early moment for me, where it became really clear the kinds of work that were necessary for a university to function and the way that, like, different elements, had to come together to support the fight for fair working conditions. Sophia [00:07:15] Yeah, wow, what a cool, like, experience to have, right going into college too. Eileen [00:07:19] Yeah. Sophia [00:07:19] That sounds awesome. Eileen [00:07:23] My dad pulled the most dad move ever and he was like, I'm just you have to go to -- I'm going to email the college president. And I was like, Dad, you cannot email the college. And he did. And he, like, had several emails with the college president about like labor rights. Sophia [00:07:36] Oh wow, that's awesome. Eileen [00:07:37] It was really sweet. Sophia [00:07:38] So are your parents kind of interested in this as well? Eileen [00:07:42] Yeah, to a lesser extent. My mom was a public school teacher as well growing up. My mom was a public school English teacher and so she was always a teacher's union member. She was never really involved on the organizing end. But I always remember being kind of conscious of that as just like an element of her job or that she was tapped into this bigger community. Sophia [00:08:00] Yeah, that makes sense. The teachers union, I think like starts a lot of stuff for a lot of people, like growing up around that. �Eileen [00:08:06] Yeah. Sophia [00:08:08] So kind of shifting this to, to the Skidmore experience, can you tell us a little bit about the non tenure track faculty union just and your involvement with it so far? Eileen [00:08:22] Sure. I began working here part time last year. I had been at the College of Saint Rose before that and Saint Rose during, during the period of COVID, although it sort of had its roots much furtherbefore that. They had a mass faculty layoff. They laid off thirty-three tenure track faculty, and then they let go of eight contingent faculty members. And I was one of the contingent faculty members. I had been there for four or five years on this rotating one year contract, and I always knew that it was not a secure contract, but I had become part of the department. I had, you know, built relationships, built community there. And my department fought really hard to save my position and just just couldn't. Right. Like the tide had turned. And so I arrived at Skidmore in this part time position because I had been job hunting. I had found some other work. I was sort of cobbling things together. But I had just come off this experience of, of a layoff, of seeing what happened at a college that, like, was unionized and still had a really tough set of working conditions for many of its faculty, was in terrible financial straits. And so I was at this point in my professional life where I was thinking about, like, what's the kind of security that I want? What are the sorts of things that I want to work for? What's the kind of working environment that I want to choose for myself going forward? And I had friends already in the English department through just, like, local research groups and other connections. And as I arrived, I started talking with some of the other contingent faculty members about some of the things that were going on and was able to find out that there was this kind of growing union movement. And I was enthusiastically, like, sign me up, give me work to do, like, I want to help out however I can. It helped that, you know, the organizing process was happening in conjunction with SEIU, which is the union that I had been part of at Saint Rose. And so I knew Sean Collins, the lead organizer. I knew him through other, other interactions, and I liked working with him. And so I was just sort of like enthusiastic to, to dive in and contribute. Sophia [00:10:39] Yeah, that makes sense. So like your, your previous job experience kind of propelled you into this current union experience and motivated you. Eileen [00:10:52] Mm-hm. Sophia [00:10:52] Yeah. Can you speak a little bit more to like, how how it feels to be on that, like, kind of tenuous contract and be working and how it affects, like, job experience and performance. Eileen [00:11:03] Yeah. From a really concrete standpoint, the academic job market requires a lot of work to sort of be on the market, you sort of have to prepare a set of materials every year. This can be upwards of, you know, fifty pages altogether of cover letters and syllabi and teaching statements and course evaluations and diversity statements and all these sorts of things. And so maintaining a current dossier of materials takes a lot of work. It takes a couple of weeks every summer. Then the application process. Applications would go up every fall. You'd spend time combing the listings, submitting things, interviewing, doing campus visits, making all these decisions. And all of that time was time that I wasn't spending on teaching or wasn't spending on students, right? I would find myself sort of saying no to things that I really wanted to be doing because I needed to sort of always have one foot out the door. It also affected the way that I was making decisions about the kinds of things that I would teach. Right? I was sort of �not in a position to be as experimental as maybe I would want to be, or that I was thinking about, like, how to build a CV that, like, would make me attractive to other jobs rather than, like, allow me to excel at the job that I had. And so that, just the time spent on being kind of one foot out the door, having to always sort of search for other jobs and the cognitive load of like always sort of thinking elsewhere and not thinking here. Both of those have affected in previous positions my ability to just like kind of be at home in a place and really dedicate myself to the students that are in front of me. Sophia [00:12:46] Yeah. And kind of circling back to the community aspect, like, it, it just kind of alienates a whole group of people working here who are supposed to be a part of the community and helping, like, build it and everything to yeah, to have them feel so unsettled the whole time while they're working here. Eileen [00:13:05] And I think that that distinction is often, you know, it's not visible to students because these job distinctions are sometimes they're not really clear and students don't know if I'm here permanently or on a temporary contract. And so, you know. This past year, I've had students who have asked me to serve as their advisor, and I can't, you know, I can't in good conscience say yes because I might not be here next year. I can't sort of support them all the way through to degree completion. I don't know if I will be a stable presence for them. And so it prevents me from building those kind of long term mentoring relationships as well. Sophia [00:13:41] Yeah, that makes so much sense. And that's interesting to, to move into, I just want to ask you what you think like the student perception of the union has been or your experience, like, with what questions students have been asking you. Do you feel like they're kind of aware of what's going on? Eileen [00:14:02] I think they're becoming aware. I think that it's something that has, you know, the last few years have been this really incredible time for labor organizing. I think that students are seeing the ways that unionization can affect jobs at every different level. Right. The faculty are attempting to unionize or have unionized. But also the local Starbucks is unionizing or, you know, the Trader Joe's is unionizing, thinking about how this is a tool for workers kind of across the spectrum. I think that has also helped students understand that maybe the popular perception of, like, what a professor is and what that lifestyle or job security looks like that that's not actually the reality for most of their professors. My, I predominantly teach freshman writing and these are often themed courses. And one of the themes that I use that I taught this past year was on the philosophies and economies of higher education. So, like, how does college work? How do our decisions about what college means to us, how are they shaped by our desire for money, for wealth, for happiness, for knowledge? And one of the things that came up in that class was this conversation about, you know, what do you think professors are making? What kind of class position do you think professors are holding? And I think a lot of students assume, because this was the case, you know, twenty years ago, forty years ago, that all of their professors are, like, making six figures and, like, own their own homes and are these, like very comfortable middle class lifestyles when that's not necessarily the case anymore. Sophia [00:15:34] Yeah, that must be that must have been a crazy conversation to have because yeah, I'm sure a honestly me before kind of getting more involved in this world and learning more about it, I also think I safely assume that, like, oh, my professors are definitely just making, like, stable money, stable jobs. They all kind of are on the same, like, professor is the one position you can be in kind of thing. And yeah, learning more �about this faculty union has been really interesting. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more to, like, what stage the, the union is at now. Eileen [00:16:14] We're currently in the negotiating process for our first collective bargaining agreement, which is, it's a really exciting place to be because it's just, like, a place of possibility. But so the election happened this past fall. The majority of non tenure track faculty voted in favor of unionizing. And so now I'm on the negotiating committee, along with several other faculty across departments, across different job roles. And we're in the process of putting together our bargaining proposals. So, you know, what do we want our contract to look like? What are the sorts of things that we want as terms of our employment and bringing those to the college to then negotiate with college representation about, like, okay, what can we make happen? What can we both agree to? What can we put in stone in the language of the bargaining agreement? Sophia [00:17:03] Yeah, wow, that's very cool. Eileen [00:17:05] Yeah, I, we, I, in fact, just before this, I spent an hour on a Zoom working meeting to look at some language about benefits and, like, who has access to health care, which of our faculty have had access to health care. What would it look like to try and widen that scope a little bit more to include maybe part time faculty or other faculty in that? Sophia [00:17:25] Yeah. And just for the record, on the, on the recording, if you could talk a bit about like what the main goals are of the union. Eileen [00:17:38] Through the organizing conversations and through all of the other conversations we've had with the full bargaining unit,that's all the faculty who are members of our new union, a couple of things have come up consistently.So one of them is, is compensation, especially for part time faculty. Part time faculty make a pretty low rate of pay and aren't eligible for a lot of really core benefits. And so increasing their compensation. For full time faculty, it's increasing job security. That's been one of the, one of the primary goals is that we have a system right now that has lots of people who are on these rotating one year or two year contracts who are in that position that I was describing earlier. They're never sort of really secure. The college has kinds of contracts that offer that sort of security for non tenure track faculty. But they haven't been extended to a lot of the faculty who are currently here. So we're fighting to create that kind of stability so that professors can be here and can be fully present for their students. And then finally, it's protecting the benefits that people have already that they really love. The college right now has a great system of benefits for full time faculty members, and a lot of faculty rely on them. And so we want to make sure that those are enshrined in the bargaining language, to make sure that they can never go away or they can't go away without the college negotiating. That's one of the things I think I have brought with me from previous job experience is that, like, knowing that even if you feel, like, you've got a great relationship with the administration, even if things feel like they're going great, feeling like things won't change isn't protection to say that they can't change. And so putting things in the bargaining language means they can't change. And so it's been a priority to get things that people really love about their jobs just memorialized and safe. Sophia [00:19:21] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And kind of going, following that vein of, how do you feel like the administration response has been to the union in terms of like supportive, non supportive? �Eileen [00:19:37] I think it has been, it's been neutral to supportive so far. I've been, I've been pleasantly surprised by how how things have been going. I will say at previous institutions, I have seen things rise to a level of, like, real aggression and real anger. And so far, that hasn't been the case. I think that also Skidmore has recognized that this is something that is core to its value system. At Skidmore one of the things that I've been so impressed with arriving here and that seems to really define the community, is a real dedication to, like, social justice and an awareness of, like, inequality of power in the world and on campus. And frankly, I think if the college wants to continue saying that it supports those values, it has to sort of be open to improving working conditions here on this campus. Sophia [00:20:32] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. In that same kind of question, how has the support been from the tenured faculty or what has been kind of their involvement being like adjacent to this whole thing? Eileen [00:20:50] I've had nothing but supportive conversations with tenure track faculty. It's been really great. I think that they recognize that the work of the whole faculty body is necessary, that we are doing the same kinds of work, that we are supporting students in the same way, and that that labor is equal to the kinds of labor that they are putting into the classroom. They know how hard it is to, to make the ship run. And so they they see that. I also think that right now the academic job market is, is really, really poor. Right. That there are hundreds of Ph.D. holders or hundreds of eligible and suitable candidates for every position that gets listed. And a lot of them were also on the job market for many years, or a lot of them have also had a history of being a graduate student instructor or being an adjunct instructor or being a contingent instructor. And so I think increasingly other professors are recognizing that, like, the difference between these levels of faculties is disappearing, like that we are we are all bringing the same credentials to the table and that we could very easily be in one another's place. And so I think that that has increased this, the sense of solidarity. Sophia [00:22:03] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like things could, things could change. It's yeah, kind of luck of the draw in that way. What would you say the biggest challenges to the union are at this time? Eileen [00:22:20] I think one of the big challenges is, is building the kind of community and solidarity across departments and disciplines. You know, we had, it was a really great experience. I was working on some bargaining demands with a faculty member in in the Chemistry department. And we became immediately obvious that, like, neither of us understood how the other person's job worked, right? Like, that we were, our contracts looked different. The way we accounted for our work looked different. And then you fold in somebody from music who's an instructor who, like, accounts for their labor and their work and their relationship with students in totally other ways. And so finding the space to really understand the kinds of work that we all do, like, how our jobs look kind of different on the surface, and then using those differences to actually find the core values of, like, what are the things that we share? What are the ways like what are the ways that we can build common goals out of those differences? That's something that requires a lot of trust. It requires a lot of relationship building. It requires a lot of time. So I think that that's been a big challenge. But I also think that that will ultimately be one of the big strengths. Sophia [00:23:31] Yeah. Like a cool part of it that just takes so much work. Eileen [00:23:35] Yeah. �Sophia [00:23:36] So, yeah. Do you think, I mean, hopefully the union just will build strength over time through, like, the course of creating those bonds and community. Eileen [00:23:44] Yeah. And I also think that this, the process of the first bargaining agreement is such a difficult one, but can be such a rewarding one. One of the other things that has been notable is that this is, it's sort of on generational lines, but not entirely, but that for younger professors, it's much more likely that they would have gone to graduate school and been in a graduate student union. Those have been increasing over the last ten, twenty years. And so we have one part of the population who has a long history of being unionized and knows what that kind of contract feels like, what it means to be part of a union, what that experience would look like. And then you may have another portion of the faculty who have never been a unionized worker before, like they've never been in a faculty union that has never crossed their mind. And so the process of sort of education in all of this is another, it's another struggle, but it's also going to be another kind of deeply rewarding thing that these people, you know, who've never been a union member, who've never been under a collective bargaining agreement, I think have a lot of fear of the unknown. But I'm excited to, like, that sort of motivates me even more of, like, you know, we have to secure a really strong bargaining agreement to sort of show people what we can do when we all work together for something like this. Sophia [00:25:05] Yeah, I think that's one of the classic, uh, like attributes of the union process is, like, it is such a difficult process, but, like, ultimately such a rewarding process. Eileen [00:25:15] Yeah. Sophia [00:25:15] I think that's what, like, a lot of people feel about it. And kind of in that same vein, what support would you say that the union needs the most from, from like the student body, from the Skidmore community at large? Eileen [00:25:35] Oh, that’s a great question. I mean, I think the support of recognizing, recognizing the work that's going into it, like knowing that your faculty are working towards this and recognizing the labor that people are putting in, that has been a huge, that's always a huge morale boost for me when we've done like outreach events or we've been out on campus and students come by and they're like, this is great. Like, you know, we're so happy to see this. Like, well, like, let us know how we can support you, even if that's like putting a sticker on your water bottle, wearing a pin around campus. Like, it's a good way to know that the community is behind you. That makes a huge difference. And I think learning more about the conditions of, of employment, the conditions of, like, the place that you are living, right, that being at college is this weird place, you know, you're sort of, you're a customer, but also a community member and also a student here, all these things. But taking the opportunity to sort of learn the details of like how the community that you're in, how it's working and the kinds of work that make it possible. Sophia [00:26:35] Yeah. I mean, and considering that you kind of initially were drawn to this kind of work in college, like, would you say this is an important time for, like, people to start learning about it now? Eileen [00:26:47] Absolutely. One of the tenure track faculty who'd supported us when we sort of declared the, when we filed our cards, when we had declared that the, that the vote was going to be scheduled, we held a little rally and she got up and said something that �has, like, stuck with me of, like, one of the things that you all are doing that is such a value here is that you're showing students what it means to, like, live into a set of values, to, like, to, to recognize something in the world that you can try and make better and, like, try and do that. And I've thought about that a lot over the past year of, like, that, that that's a responsibility that we have as organizers, but also as educators to, like, show students what it means to, to sort of commit to a value and to try to bring that into reality. Sophia [00:27:34] Yeah, that's so interesting to be, like, considering your role as a union member, but also an educator at the same time. Like, education based unions are so, like, special in that way. That's incredible. Is there anything else you wanted to, like, add or explain that you feel like we missed? Eileen [00:27:53] No, I think that that covers it. Sophia [00:27:55] Awesome. Sophia [00:27:56] Well, thank you so much for coming in today. This has been a great interview. Eileen [00:27:59] You're so welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sophie Delohery '25 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eileen Sperry Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:59 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 29, 2023 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eileen Sperry Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 7, 2023 Description An account of the resource Eileen Sperry holds a PhD in English from Stony Brook University. She teaches composition and early modern English literature, and her research specializes in poetry and disability studies. She’s been a member of the CWA 1104 Graduate Student Employees Union—Stony Brook chapter, United University Professions—Albany and Empire State chapters, and SEIU Faculty Forward—Saint Rose and Skidmore chapters. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3ddaa63f75e084276464b65808a3d676.JPG d56ace44808e28947c4bbc4d28830c74 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/73df41e1e3a6270c3fc29b7ad96d06a0.mp3 12c1f3109548e26d882bf833705833a3 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/745354ffac9b848ffe27d38816d25afc.pdf f91f0d78fb4203dab87627c6aca7b64a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3a6d0a21112d45bf4d0134dd1543adb5.pdf 93a62c42349c324167f38a536a75767d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam, Sound and Story Project of the Hudson Valley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eleanor Samworth Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit December 13, 2018 Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eleanor Samworth Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 22, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Eleanor Samworth came to Skidmore in 1964.  During her tenure she experienced the move to the new campus, growth in student enrollments, inception of coeducation in 1970, expansion of Liberal Studies, and computer use as central to many disciplines.  As chair of the Chemistry/Physics Department she oversaw the inception of Physics as a separate major and an agreement with Dartmouth for an engineering program.  In this interview she also discusses her involvement with the Skidmore Chapter of AAUP, especially a study of salary disparities between men and women faculty.  She remarks on how President Palamountain’s tenure was marked by construction and, during the Vietnam war era, tensions between faculty and administration.  Under the Porter presidency she saw an increase in money raised for student scholarships as well as a growth in student minority recruitment and funds for faculty support and endowed chairs.  Since her retirement in 1994 she has volunteered for a number of local organizations. Language A language of the resource English (en) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dym, Jordana; Stern, Rebecca, '16 Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Eileen McAdam Date Created Date of creation of the resource. January 5, 2016 Date Copyrighted Date of copyright. January 5, 2015 Date Submitted Date of submission of the resource. Examples of resources to which a Date Submitted may be relevant are a thesis (submitted to a university department) or an article (submitted to a journal). January 17, 2016 Date Issued Date of formal issuance (e.g., publication) of the resource. January 17, 2016 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. January 17, 2016 Date Valid Date (often a range) of validity of a resource. January 17, 2016 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History AAUP chemistry coeducation Engineering Program Eric Porter Faculty Gender Equity Information Technology Liberal Studies Palamountain Physics https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9c7785a845311869cfa3e9230982d755.jpg ee45cb3daf65ddb9189468ee9d591e3e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f71d57ac659af55e3ca037490acbf1c7.mp3 049063cbe0cecdb29a4550a5b426c3ed Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Nuesi, Chelsea Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elvira Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Elvira Ramirez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/18/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Elvira talked about her experience with racial and linguistic prejudice in Puerto Rico and in the United States. Language A language of the resource Spanish, English Class language Latinx Nuyoricans Prejudice Puerto Rico race https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/82676819845cedcc39bf08fe914f6bcc.mp3 237c9119e026eab284c9906ad36a128f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mopsik, Jerome Mopsik, Emily Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Scribner Library, DocLab Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Dym, Jordana Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 17/10/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emily and Jerome Mopsik (2007 and 2006) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 7, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. SSMP Alumni Oral History Project Language A language of the resource eng https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/330482596733b29ce36ec19eec2c7620.jpg 42d6594fa4b7d43862815d133d7bf861 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/fe4b75c9384f20b503784a7295e001cd.m4a 41a1eb0aa8d778518c5a1718c8df525d https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2758b22bbb751b30b534451a60a8c1e9.jpg eedc0a49cdc09f06aeca67cab8e0705b https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e53a2903a4b769a9a60dc88e2b0b2015.jpg b34953359fc4ea11b9b80566a66b44e5 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6ac8c8ada256bff471f21c221d2bd36d.jpg 53ff1f93fe7b3227d9ec58fe42deccbf https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c47094ffa5f9c7692a2a8c255de64378.pdf 79487377c3616602157dfa4858f8461d PDF Text Text 1 Cohen & Carr Interview with Emily Cohen and Jennifer Carr by Harry Sultan, Skidmore College Saratoga Memory Project, Skidmore College, NY June 1st 2018 Harry Sultan: Could I have you introduce yourselves? Emily Cohen: I'm Emily Cohen, Emily Diminiani Cohen. Class of 1988 Jennifer Carr: I'm Jennifer Carr and I'm also class of 1988 HS: And how did you two meet? JC: We met on our move in day of our freshmen year, so 1984. September. But we met on the phone prior to that. Emily gave me a phone call after you get your letter - back in those days you got an actual delivered letter that explained who your roommate was and what interests my overlap. And Emily phoned and we had a fun conversation. HS: Do you remember that conversation? JC: Do you? EC: Bits and pieces, I think you probably remember more than I do, you have a better memory for those. JC: I remember Emily saying that she was from New York and that she spoke very proper and I had a Boston accent that was fairly thick at the time and Emily quietly note, 'oh, you have a thick Boston accent' and I think it lead into the fact that she would be allowed to have a car on campus and I was like, "ooh a car on car on campus, that'll be exciting" EC: Right, that was back in the day. I think now Freshmen are not allowed to have cars, but I think we did. I don't remember if I had it from the very beginning or six months in. JC: I don't recall EC: We might have. So yes, we met move-in day. My parents, Jennifer's parents. I was teary, I couldn't believe I was going to college, and going to be independent and �2 Cohen & Carr separated from my parents and Jennifer was ready to celebrate and throw her arms up in the air. JC: I was celebrating. Parent free. It was a nice opportunity to be away from my parents that I was very much looking forward to. HS: And what dorm were you in JC: Tower. Tower 8th floor correct? EC: 8th floor, yes. JC: And we had a balcony room EC: and a co-ed floor which my parents were horrified by JC: Oh gosh, mine as well. My father met a young man who had an earring, and he was a little, discombobulated by that fact. I think, first that there was a man on our floor and what did that mean in 1984. Didn't mean anything; that he liked an earring. HS: And when you got to your room did you decorate, did you settle in, did you explore the campus? EC: We bought a few things. You had a bit more flare than I did. You brought maybe a lamp, something for the walls, posters. There was definitely an Ice Cream Social, that was an icebreaker. I do remember that, going to that together. After I stopped crying we went to the ice cream social. We had the window seat, did you make that your bed? JC: Yea we moved the mattress off the bed-frame, I don't know where we were allowed to put the bed-frame after that, but we moved the mattress to the window seat so my bed was there and Emily had the modular unit. EC: Right, so I had to climb up some stairs and then the desk below. We had a nice room. Nice suite JC: We had suite-mates. 1, 2, 3, rooms on our side and then two rooms on the other side of the bathroom. �3 Cohen & Carr HS: So when you got into Skidmore did you have any idea of what you'd want to major in or what you wanted to get out of Skidmore? EC: I wanted liberal arts, so that's what drew me to Skidmore. I studied French, but really a broad liberal arts curriculum. So I think I was looking for that experience. You were business-minded. JC: I was a business major, and I think I knew that from the beginning but I also was excited about the liberal arts experience and I remember thinking partially through the school year how each class room experience had some shared knowledge that sort of transcended from one class to the next and I was very excited about that because that's not how high-school was. HS: Do you have any examples how those classes transcended into the rest? JC: It was a long time ago. Let's see. I do remember we took a business, we had BU-107 I think it was in the beginning stages of that and just how that incorporated accounting, but also had english features to it that you had to do presentations EC: Right, and read the book and even as a french major I took BU-107 and I remember to this day reading the book called House. I think that's what it was called, about a married couple who built a house - it was a novel about how they almost ended up divorced because of this process together so even in a business class there was this whole study approach. JC: The aspect of working in a group and who would take on which roles, and who was slacking and who was not slacking. I think I wasn't the best business major in the world HS: And did you take the class together cause you were such good friends? EC: We didn't take the class together, no. I took it maybe as a junior just ya know to take because it was one of those, 'oh you have to take BU-107 and �4 Cohen & Carr learn about McDonalds and Gillette Razors' and all of those classic business examples. You took it probably first year. JC: I took it first year, maybe second semester. I remember it being springtime. I remember on our day of our presentation listening to a Crosby Stills and Nash song, I don't know why that sticks in my mind, and having to present in front of these business men, there were no women at the time. But it was very nerve racking. I was nervous. HS: Do you remember what song? JC: I'm not good with the songs, but it's the one that goes on for about 12 minutes long. HS: Sweet Judy Blue Eyes? JC: mmm we'd have to google it I think HS: And could you tell me a bit about not just your dorm room, but your dorm life? Did you hang out with people in your suite and the floors? JC: We did, there was a freshmen group, they were in a triple. EC: Yes, one of our dearest friends to this day, she lives in Colorado so unfortunately Claude Goldberg is not here, but we're dear friends to this day. And then a junior in a single JC: And a senior on the other side whose boyfriend took photographs for Sports Illustrated and that was kind of fascinating; we got to see the photographs of - what sticks in my mind is the swimsuit issues were always so popular at the time and kind of sexist I guess now; but the swimsuit issues would come out and you'd look at all the photographs but we got to see all the photographs before they were retouched and we were amazed at how different things were. EC: I do remember that. JC: You remember that? �5 Cohen & Carr EC: I forgot about that. HS: Were there parties in the dorms or more relaxed? JC: I think they used to have like floor parties, maybe the RA's would pair up with another floor and you'd have like seventh and eighth floor would have like a social and I think they could serve alcohol cause the drinking age was eighteen at the time and they would put a sign on the water fountain that said 'non alcoholic beverage' kind of thing. And they'd be socials so they weren't hours and hours long but there was a common room EC: There was, I was just about to say I remember - was it on the top floor? Because I remember our freshmen year watching the Super Bowl in some sort of common room, but not on our floor because we were the last class to have J-term so we spent January, we came back right after December vacation and had a one month - I think I took art history that month - a one month intensive maybe three week class. And skiing, we used to go to West Mountain and Ski. So we were here for the Super-bowl. I remember going to a party freshmen year on that floor JC: Yea it's the penthouse I believe HS: So when you weren't in classes - you just said you skid - were you part of any clubs or activities? JC: I was on the riding team, the horse riding team for a couple of years. And did we join in the some other thing within the dorm, I think we might've EC: Maybe, I remember some sort of volunteer opportunities. I remember something in town, maybe with an elementary school that I did at one point. It was such a long time ago now but my memories are of, and that was what touched me this morning listening to the award ceremony, and to our classmate who received the Creative Thought Matters award, that there was this commitment even then to social activism and taking care of the �6 Cohen & Carr other and it wasn't called creative thought matters but it was definitely in the culture of, you know, putting yourself out there to help in the community and the world. HS: And so I guess coming back here are you seeing anything that has stayed the same that you're happy has stayed the same since when you were around? JC: I think the overall campus layout is the same so it feels familiar. Still the same buildings that are here now but I find comfort knowing like where to go to find which dorm, the names of the buildings return to my mind, when someone says the Ladd building, I'm like "oh the Ladd building". But mostly the dorms I think bring back a little nostalgia feel. Like which window was mine, you know remember that year you lived in that dorm and traipsing across the quad we would have occasionally on Saturdays or Sundays they would have sort of like cake parties out there I guess. Someone would put a speaker up in Howe-Rounds out their window and just be out. HS: And was there anything that you came across on campus while you've been here that started an immediate flashback to when you were in college? EC: Being on the green probably. Sitting there this morning having the skidmosas and looking out onto the green remembering those parties and, as I said, the music. I remember that Livingston Taylor came and played and there was a piano on the green. JC: I don't remember that, but I remember the gatherings. Some kids played hackey sack, there was always hackeysack, frisbee. Sometimes we would just sit out there and listen to the music, watch everybody come and go. It was nice cause you were all together and didn't have a class. It was all relaxed. �7 Cohen & Carr HS: Anything that as you've come back and see things that you wish were different, or things that you wished changed that you see are still the same? JC: I don't EC: No I see only progress. You know the garden, we were commenting if we would garden, and the answer is probably not. But young people today, college students today are so minded toward that so I only see improvements. The growth and the landscaping is more beautiful, the patios are more wonderful JC: Skidmore to me is like an awesome place and nothing, I would never change anything about it. Um, those places down there EC: Sussman JC: Sussman is reminiscent of what we lived in but is also nice and new. I am always happy to come back. No regrets. The only thing I wish is that we had more of things they have. You know the beautiful museums and the music center we were in today. EC: Zenkel is beautiful, and the tang. JC: We didn't have that. HS: And did either of you study abroad EC: No I didn't, remember, I didn't want to leave. I should have but I was so happy in Saratoga, so happy at Skidmore that I didn't. No. We were both here all four years. JC: I think I was happy to be here. HS: And while you were on campus did you ever break outside the Skidmore bubble, explore Saratoga? JC EC: Always JC: I think we would walk down or take the crazy bus that was offered �8 Cohen & Carr EC: And we went to the battlefield, the Saratoga Battlefield, we would go to Lake George occasionally, explore. Yes we felt that we were in a beautiful, we loved the area. JC: Sometimes we'd go out to dinner together or with another friend. Even as freshmen we would find someplace else to eat besides the dining hall. EC: Yes, the dining hall is a huge step up from our dining hall. Huge step up in looks and quality JC: I remember shrimp cocktail. Every, maybe once a month, they'd put out this huge display of shrimp. Do you recall that? I think I overdosed on shrimp because that would be like the only food I would eat. Seemed the freshest. I had so many shrimp EC: I remember eggs. Always making egg salad from the hard boiled eggs. Yea that's my strongest dining hall memory JC: The shrimp always caught me off guard, like what college has shrimp. My other friends were like, 'you get shrimp in college?' I'm like 'yea' HS: When you went out for dinners in Saratoga was there one place that was kind of the go-to? EC: Madame Jammels for Sunday brunch which I think is gone. The Court Bistro which is also not there. Oh and Hattie's Chicken Shack is still there, we used to go there on Sundays for dinner. Gaffneys of course for wing night. JC: And that was inexpensive EC: Yes. Um Where else did we JC: When our parents were in town we'd make them take us to the expensive restaurants like the Old Bryan Inn. EC: Lillians we went to occasionally JC: What was that place out by the lake? On Saratoga lake �9 Cohen & Carr EC: It's still there. It's big, it almost has a theme to it now. JC: I think it had a water feature on the inside. EC: Yes I think so. What's it called, out on the lake or towards the lake. JC: They had coconut bread as the bread they serve from the beginning and they had a recipe that my mother still has. EC: Oh really? I can't remember the name of that restaurant. JC: Steven [Mosk] took me there on our first date. Big spender that he was. EC: Showing off HS: And have you been to any of these places since you graduated? EC: Definitely. JC: Mrs. Londons we enjoy. Gaffneys. I mean the physical buildings are still there, most of them anyway. EC: So Jennifer and I, because we so love Saratoga and Skidmore, we've come to every reunion and we've also come over the years for a fall trip to meet each other or a spring trip with our moms, did we come once with our moms. So we've definitely stayed very connected. We rented a house one summer we were remembering this morning, 20 years ago, no 19 years ago. Yea so we've stayed very attached and very connected to Skidmore. JC: It's one of our favorite places to be, I think. It makes us happy when we're here. HS: Did you feel like, or has your appreciation of Skidmore or Saratoga change since you left Skidmore? JC: I know I think we still feel, like we come back and we feel we know which streets to go up and down, it feels familiar EC: It's grown quite a bit, the downtown. We definitely reminisce about the way things were before there were more retail chain stores, that's a difference. But it's kept its character and we just love seeing what's new. �10 Cohen & Carr JC: Grand Union's gone. EC: yes JC: Price chopper. What else did we do? We used to go there to get snacks EC: Right. Is the diner still there? Down toward JC: Comptons? EC: No, there was a diner wasn't there? Toward the lake on Broadway? I don't know. HS: So what was an average week like? JC: I remember we would have classes. It wouldn't be a full day of classes. You'd have whatever you chose for your times, for your class schedule. But you'd have a class, a little bit of time off, time to have a lunch break, go back to an afternoon class. Some would have an evening class, some would have a 7 o'clock class. We'd have dinner in between, then library/ study in the room. I was not a very good library goer. And then I think every day was a little different but that was sort of the general them, I don't remember sleeping in. EC: No. And maybe exercising. The athletic center isn't what it is today, but it was really nice in 1984, 85. We played squash, played a lot of squash. Um we watched friends compete in sports. JC: Hockey EC: Yes, hockey games HS: Were the sports a big part of the culture at Skidmore back then? JC: It was small enough that I think you pretty much knew everybody who played a sport and who didn't play a sport so if your friend or girlfriend was playing an important game on campus you'd definitely want to visit and see what they were up to. I don't think I took in too many basketball games, but a few. �11 Cohen & Carr EC: no. Hockey, lacrosse, occasional soccer. JC: Tennis EC: We'd watch tennis. HS: And was that the same with the equestrian team? JC: So the equestrian team didn't really have shows, maybe once a year we'd have shows here so we'd have to travel around. Got to go to Cornell, I've forgotten some of the other places we would go. St. Lawrence, we would drive all the way up there. So it was more off campus, and we'd have to sleep overnight usually which was strange. We'd be in kind of crummy hotels and no bus would take us we'd have to drive in someones personal car which I don't think they do anymore. Probably legal reasons HS: what was it like competing at the collegiate level? JC: That was awesome. The horse back team is a little bit different than a traditional sport. As a team you're not out there at the same time, you're sort of doing it individually to accumulate points as a team. So you were still riding horses like you were normally in your previous life but it was fun to be with a bunch of ladies and men, because it was a co-ed sport so that was pretty neat. EC: Bruce did it with you JC: Yes, I was on the team with Bruce EC: On our freshmen year JC: Yup that's how we got to know each-other a little bit better. But it was a fun thing to do as a co-ed group I guess. And we spent a lot of time traveling back and forth so we would chat about whatever, eat pizza out usually is what we ended up doing but it was kind of fun to see other schools and got to meet the kids at a different level, like we would spend more time with them because we would be hanging at the schools with them. Different �12 Cohen & Carr schools were competing in one arena, you go and you right their horse so you don't know what you're getting until you get there which was the unique part about it. HS: And you did it all four years? JC: I didn't do it my senior year. Three years. I don't know what happened EC: I don't remember JC: I don't remember either. I don't know if it was taking more time than I could spend, or I wanted to diversify cause I ended up being on the government committee. Student government committee. EC: Mmm. SGA, you did do that, I forgot about that. JC: Yea so the student government council? EC: Association I think. SGA? JC: I don't remember. EC: I think JC: And we would sit on disciplinary hearings for students so we were sort of in charge of making disciplinary actions amongst your peers which was a sort of unique experience in itself. HS: Any things from there that remain with you? JC: I remember it being very difficult and I thought it was a challenge to participate in that because you are their peers and we didn't have a court system like you do now. We didn't have a ton of evidence it was more one person speaking for themselves, maybe someone else speaking for or against them. And then we had to decide what the disciplinary action would be. We had a guide and there was definitely a faculty or administrative member on the team. But I don't remember what we listened to to be honest. What kind of crimes they were. EC: What sort of infractions. I don't remember �13 Cohen & Carr JC: There may have been a sexual assault discussion which now would be probably something you hear more often, but back in 1987 or '8, whatever, that was, it was hard I think to understand what was right and what was wrong with facts and evidence HS: and were you part of SGA as well? EC: No I wasn't, I did more volunteer work I remember. I did have an internship at the Hyde Museum. I was thinking about that during my drive here. In the rare book department and that was fun. I would drive to that museum and do some work there but no student government for me. HS: Was the Hyde internship something that you got through Skidmore? EC: Yes it was. I don't remember how, and I don't even remember if it was our junior year or if it was over two years but it was a wonderful museum and I was thinking about it on the way here, if we had more time it would be fun to go back and see that museum. HS: And was that an area that you thought maybe after college that you'd go into? EC: I think I was just exploring more than anything honestly. I liked art, liked books, and it was an opportunity that presented itself so I don't think I really, thirty years ago things were so different. We just didn't think that much about what we would do after college. It's, to look at the wall downstairs of the seniors from this year that have phenomenal jobs in banking and law and medicine and the Your Hired Photos; we commented yesterday, we wouldn't be on that wall. JC: We went to Europe. EC: We went to Europe. HS: For how long were you in Europe? �14 Cohen & Carr JC: Two months. I think a total of eight weeks. Our third friend Claude came with us and we all met at Emily's parents house and they took us to the airport and sent us off on Air-whatever we were on-france? And we had such wonderful experiences cause Claude had an uncle in Paris and we stayed in someones friend's flat and we went to the south of France and stayed with yourEC: My brother's client, yes. And we crossed paths - so maybe students do it still - but we crossed paths with so many Skidmore friends throughout Europe and my kids always grown when I say this but, pre cell phones we would say, 'okay we'll meet you next Tuesday at the fountain at three o'clock' and we did, it worked. It wasn't, 'are you there yet? are you coming? are you sure'. We just made these plans and ran into friends and it was great. We had a great time. JC: And we ran into another classmate, he was the class president, we ran into him at the [museum name] museum? Randomly. So it was definitely something that a lot of graduates were doing at the time. Traveling. EC: Backpacking through Europe. HS: You studied french, so obviously that came in handy. Was there any other things you learned from an actual class at Skidmore or just being a Skidmore student that you felt like prepared you for this unchartered world? JC: I took an art history class, I remember because I didn't know enough about art and art history so I remember seeing some of those things we studied in class in real life and how amazing that was. That I enjoyed, that piece. My business piece sort of applied in the, after our travels I think. EC: But I think just the general Skidmore feeling on campus of being open to experiences and �15 Cohen & Carr JC: that we felt comfortable doing that experience EC: Exactly. Exactly. HS: and what was your average Friday night like? JC: I think usually we wouldn't leave campus until maybe 10pm. 9:30pm? and then go downtown and find a spot to be with all of our friends. There was the Trattoria, we remembered last night, was the three floor storied place with music and a lot of music I think it was. Someone would DJ, sometimes a Skiddie would be DJing. EC: and Barclays which is no longer I think. But that was Tuesday nights I think. JC: That was definitely midweek. Maybe that's why it closed. HS: Were there many nights during the week that you'd go down to these places? JC: Thursday nights we would EC: Thursday nights we went to a bar, it's now called Baileys, it was the grill at the time. I think Tuesday nights was a Barclays night, and Thursday nights was the Grill and Friday night was wherever, or a house party. A lot of people lived off campus our junior and senior years. But late. We definitely stayed. And everything stayed open late. And then late night wings or popcorn at Gaffneys JC: There was that hotdog place that at the window, you'd walk up to a facade there was no place to sit or anything - you'd get your EC: Cheesy fries JC: Something HS: And this is downtown? EC: Downtown. I think it's next to the Tin and Lint still? Maybe it's gone, or next to Gaffneys I don't know. �16 Cohen & Carr HS: And this was going on Freshmen, sophomore, junior, senior year? JC: I know when we first started cause the drinking age was 18, the campus life was a little more vibrant cause you could have alcohol on campus and they allowed you to have keg parties as long as there was an alternate beverage offered. But I think after the drinking age changed there was definitely a shift in how much time we spent our time on campus in the evenings. HS: So it changed while you were in college? JC EC: it did. EC: It went to 21. From 18 to 21. HS: Do you remember what year you guys were? EC: I think it was spring of our freshmen year? Or fall of sophomore year JC: It went to twenty. I think it went to twenty, when we were sophomores and when we were just about to turn twenty it turned twenty-one. HS: So what was that like being students in this place where you had all these freedoms and then to have it crashing down? JC: It was, we felt annoyed by that because, you're from NY, I wasn't from NY so it was already 21 at home. But at school I was allowed to drink alcohol and then you come back from winter break and you're no longer allowed legal. And they didn't grandfather anyone in, maybe they did for New York people? EC: I don't think so because I remember thinking that it was just so wrong, and being so irritated by that, 'how can you let us drink for 6 months and then all of a sudden you say you can't drink anymore'. JC: It did disrupt the feeling of the town I think and I think the town businesses suffered as well because they couldn't let us in. HS: Did that put any strain on your relationship with the school? EC JC: no no �17 Cohen & Carr JC: No, they just had to follow the rules, so the party size changed where - oh yea I forgot, I was the Bud rep on campus our senior year. So we would (laughs) - Spuds McKenzie EC: I forgot about that JC: You were not even born then. So there was an Annheiser Busch distributor not far in Saratoga and I worked directly with the distributor and each party would have to go through the rep to acquire their alcoholic beverages so I would help them supply them with a cool, a kegerator kind of thing where you hook up the kegs to it. So I'd go and set up the kegs and attach them all. But in the beginning you used to have like a ten keg party and then when the drinking age went from 20 to 21 it was down to like a four keg party and then they stopped offering keg parties on campus after I left. But the Spuds McKenzie thing, we had like swag we'd hand out, t-shirts. It's kind of funny I forgot about that experience. I had to diversify didn't I, from the horse team. I was on SGA and the Bud rep at the same time. HS: I guess looking back if you could tell yourself one piece of advice going forward is there anything you would have changed? EC: Maybe the study abroad. Even though we traveled, I think that having children who have studied abroad I think that I should've done that, but I don't regret it. Definitely not. I made the choice, I loved Skidmore, I loved Saratoga and wanted my four years here. Couldn't think about missing a fall here or a spring here, even the winters ya know now I can't stand winter but, and we got feet and feet of snow. You still do, I'm sure. But it wasn't a big deal. So that's probably the one thing that maybe I would say, 'oh, you should've gone to Paris' JC: I think that I would tell myself to pay a little closer to my studies, to you know use my time a little more wisely as a student. But also participate in �18 Cohen & Carr all the school has to offer, don't miss out on both things. I think my studying could've been better. But it was fine. It all was good. EC: It all worked out. HS: Great, and any last great stories you didn't get a chance to tell? JC: I don't know, we had so many fun times together just, our other girlfriend Claude joining us in some of the fun and being part of each-others lives is always a fun story but I don't know if theres one specific. EC: No, just such an intimacy that we really are family, you know I love that as I said, we didn't have creative thought matters, but we did. It just wasn't called that. And we didn't have hashtags but I love that hashtag Skid4Life. Because we are Skidmore sisters and just in each-others lives because of our experience here. Our kids are in each-others lives, our husbands. Four of us, another girlfriend who's here at reunion and Claude, the one in Colorado, the eight of us - with our husbands - went to Las Vegas to celebrate our fiftieth birthdays so that was a real Skidmore reunion. JC: And we met up with a fifth friend who lives out in that area, so that was really fun having ten of us together and it felt like we had been together every month but some of us haven't seen each-other in 20 years or only every five years. So its just great. HS: That's wonderful, well I think that just about wraps it up. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rizzo, Emily Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Cohen, Emily; Carr, Jennifer Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jordana Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 6/27/18 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2-Jun-18 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rizzo, Emily, 18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio recording Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emily Cohen and Jennifer Carr, '88 alumni oral history Skidmore College https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/53066a2713d31fd70dbb395b645855e6.jpg 8c304454a7f1821579efcd08ecdca812 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/647ba7adddf563fb5248451b73449e62.mp3 6ce9ea0b87c3111b8648e9c47a33b892 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9454b72047b23cc48d4411a49e27aee7.pdf 243ad65043e2d9030d183a7fa4eba595 PDF Text Text JS: Hello, I am James Sutherland and um, I am doing the Saratoga Springs Memory Project interview. Could you introduce yourself? EM: Yes, I am Eric Morser, I am an associate professor of history at Skidmore College. JS: Um, could you tell us a little about your background? EM: Yeah, I am originally from Wisconsin, uh, I lived there for the first thirty three years of my life, I went to the University of Wisconsin for my undergraduate degree, and liked it enough in Madison Wisconsin that I stayed there for my masters and my PHD, so I was there for fifteen years. Um, after that, I had a number of jobs around the country, I taught at a university in Pennsylvania, I taught for two years at the University of New Mexico and three years at the University of Florida, before coming up to Skidmore, and I have been at Skidmore now for about nine years. JS: So you came to Saratoga for Skidmore? EM: Yes, yeah there was a job that was open, and it sounded like it was a good place, and I had known some people who had taught here, and, uh, that is really what drew me here. JS: Um, so what is one big memory, what is your favorite memory of Saratoga Springs? EM: My favorite memory of Saratoga Springs is probably related to this little person here, uh, he was born a few months after we moved here, and uh, I remember very clearly, I was teaching a class- a night class on campus, I got a call from his mom saying "Can you come home, I need to go to the hospital," and then he was born at 6:06 the next day on November 5, 2009, so that is probably one of the clearest memories that I have. JS: And, um, what about a memory from Skidmore? EM: Uh, I think one of the best memories I've had from Skidmore is, right at- the year when I came, there was something called the Coroda(?) lecture, and that's, it happens every two years, it's hosted by the Poli-sci department, and Government, and American Studies, and each time each department gets it they bring special speaker in. So, I think it was my first year, or my second? I think it was my first year, where it was my job to bring the speaker in, and I was not quite sure what to make of it, I had somebody in mind who turned out to be great, she came to campus, she talked about early American history, she had just written a book about Thomas Jefferson, and the women in his life, and it was that moment where I really felt like I was part of the Skidmore community. Where people, I was reaching out to people, and they were coming to this event, and it was kind of a big campus event, and that was a really good memory for me, �that’s always been a good memory thinking about how it is that I started to create an origin, to establish roots here. JS: Any other events like that that stand out to you? EM: Yeah, I mean one that’s more recent than that, is that I was able to work on a prison exhibit that came to campus, it was a national prison exhibit, I had put together a public history course kind of like the one that you’re teaching, it was built around a semester long project, I know you guys are doing the Howard Zinn documentary, and that project was related to the history of Mount MacGregor, a prison that closed in 2014, and we were invited to join this international, well really national but kind of international organization, in which each school was donating a local story relating to mass incarceration. So I was able to work on this project with those students, and then finally last semester that exhibit that had been touring the country came to Skidmore, and it was kind of a nice series of memories of events that I’d worked on, with Jordana Dym and some other people on campus, drawing people from in the community, draeing a lot of students, and it was a series of really satisfying events that highlighted all of the things that are possible when you’re at a place like Skidmore. So I think more recently that’s something that really stands out. JS: These- so community events, I take it, you’re very into them. EM: Yes, yes definitely. JS: Are those the only two, or… EM: Those are the ones that really stand out, I – part of what I do along with teaching in the history department, I’m the faculty director of civic engagement, so that has given me a chance to work with other faculty members and students on similar kinds of community events so I spend a lot of time thinking about bringing speakers to campus, and helping students reach out beyond the campus in ways that are really satisfying, one thing that we did a couple of years ago was we brought a speaker in named Julie Winoker(?), and she, uh, had put together a film about the challenge of trying to get people from different political points of view having conversations with one another, and that was, we brought her in in 2016, when the presidential election was really heating up, and it was a nice chance to bring members of the community together for, uh, for an event that I thought was really important given the context of the times. So whenever there’s a chance to do that kind of community outreach I really really enjoy it. JS: What are some challenges that you face with that aspect of the job? EM: It is always, uh with the civic engagement stuff, it is always um… well we don’t have a lot of resources for it, so I’m lucky enough to work with a subcommittee, on campus, where I work with people like Michelle Hubbs, who is a staff member who works on community outreach, and I work with other faculty members. Had the committee not existed, I could not do the job at all. And part of it is just about having financial support, a part of it is logistical support, planning these events takes a lot of time, and takes a lot of energy, and it can be really satisfying, but it can be really stressful as well, trying to figure out if the room you have is the right size, trying to reach out to people who are not members of the �campus, trying to bring a lot of people in, there are always a lot of moving parts, so that’s part of the challenge of it, and when it works it’s great, but it takes a lot of focused energy to get it moving. JS: So what’s one thing about Skidmore or Saratoga Springs that you would change? EM: Oooh, that I would change about Skidmore or Saratoga Springs… um… I guess for Skidmore, if I could change anything, and this is a little more personal I guess, I really like this idea of civic engagement, I wish we had a center for civic engagement, I wish we had some kind of a dedicated space, I wish we had staff, I wish we had a million dollar a year budget, um, I think something like that would be fantastic. And one thing that I also wish is that um, I wish that there was a little more sense of coordination on campus because there’s so much going on, and a lot of times one hand doesn’t always know what the other hand is doing in terms of planning events, or even putting classes together that I wish there was some kind of way to coordinate things a little more so that we always, so that we have a better sense of all of the activities that are going on, rather than having so much going on that people feel overwhelmed, and I think that students sometimes feel overwhelmed by that as well. So I think if I could change anything personally I’d love to have a center for civic engagement, otherwise if there was a way to coordinate these events and um, to really involve different kinds of departments who might be interested in these events and to bring them in in a more intentional way, I think that’d be great. JS: Reverse of that, what’s one thing that you hope never changes? EM: I hope, what never changes, is that, I hope I always have good, devoted students, and one thing I like about Skidmore students is that they are really aware of the world around them. I like the fact that we have so many students going abroad, I like the fact that there are a lot of students who really believe that they can change the world, and if that attitude disappeared it would be a real loss, so I think that’s one thing that I really like, I really like the students. You guys are really engaged, and you’re just, you’re a fun group to work with, and that’s the biggest thing I would hate to see disappear. JS: So how many different classes would you say you’ve taught at Skidmore? EM: Um, I would say ten or twelve classes, I think something like that? Um, I’ve got in my rotation now I’ve got six or seven, something like that, and I’ve got different versions, I think I’ve taught a dozen different classes, ten or twelve for sure. And I mean that’s one thing that’s nice too that I really like about Skidmore, is that we’ve got a lot of freedom to design the kinds of classes that we really like, um, at some places I knew people who taught the same class over and over and over again, and there was not a lot of freedom or leeway to really engage in that kind of creative pedagogy, where you would have a chance to say, I really wanna teach a class on this, like I taught my first year experience course, when that exhibit was here, I taugh a first year experience course on mass incarceration, and I was able to take my students over to the exhibit and integrate them into the events, and that is something that would not necessarily be common at a bigger university, so one great thing about Skidmore is that we have that kind of freedom to teach a variety of different kinds of classes, and we’ve got a lot of, there’s a lot of energy in the history department, where people are having conversations about classes that they want to teach, or team teaching, or coming in and talking in somebody else’s class, we do that all the time, and there’s a really nice sense of cooperative education going on here. And that’s, that’s been really exciting. �JS: So is there any particular class or collaboration with another teacher that stands out? EM: Uh, one that I did this past semester is, my colleague Erika Bastress-Dukehart, who teaches – you may have had her before – that she teaches a course on crime and punishment ijn Europe, and I was doing my course on mass incarceration in the United States, and I said to her it’d be great if you could come in and talk about Fukoh(?) and talk about the European origins of American criminal justice, and she came in and did that, and, uh, it was great for the students to meet her, and see, her, she’s really dynamic, and she said now I – it’d be great if you could come into my class too, so I went into one of her classes on the Reformation and talked about the impact of the Reformation on American history, and that was one moment where the two of us could really come together, and it really wasn’t just about having conversations, where we discover that we have similar interests, it was about us taking those similar interests and viewing particular events from different points of view and coming into classes and sharing those different points of view. It’s moments like that that are really great, and we’ve talked about doing more of that kind of work here, and that’s one that I really look back and say “that worked, that was a good thing.” JS: Um, of all the historical sites in and around Saratoga, which one resonates with you most of all? EM: I like – I love the battlefield, that’s probably an easy answer for me. I really, I’ll give you two to that, I love the battlefield because I like to be able to talk about the Battle of Saratoga in class and tell students we’re 20 minutes away from where the world changed. Uh, they do a really nice job leading tours, and organizing it, but I really really like having that battlefield close by because it reminds students how close history can actually be. One other place I like is Congress Park, and I like that just because of the beauty of the park, and I’ve got fond memories of taking him (his son) there and going on the merry-go-round, even though you cried the first time because you thought you’d never be able to come back ever again, once we did that, but in terms of teaching I like to point to Congress Park because not only is that the place where John Morrissey established one of his casinos, but it’s where Frederick Law Olmsted, the landscape architect, did some of his work, and he’s the one who designed Central Park. So it’s a nice opportunity to both be in this beautiful place and say “look, this is where all of this cool history happened, it’s really close by, it defines the community that we all live in, and you can go and visit it, and see it.” So those are two places that really stand out for me in terms of places that are close by, historical places. JS: Do you think any sites around here are understated, or not as prominent? EM: I am not sure, I think sometimes what happens is that people don’t always remember that they’re surrounded by history, and one of the activities that I have students do in my public history class is just take a day and walk around the downtown and look around at it, and look at the architecture, and look at the dates on the buildings, and a place like Broadway I think has a really interesting history that people don’t always think about because they don’t go down there thinking about the history, they think about the shopping, or going to the bookstore or going out to eat, and if we stop and kind of just sit and look around and say “that is, I had not thought about it in historical terms,” you can see how that type of history in everyday life is just more important and more prominent than people often recognize. One thing I like to do too is have students try and follow the railroad tracks, if you go down in front of, they run past �the movie theater, and they run past to the grocery store downtown, that they’ve been laid out so that you can walk the railroad tracks, and when you do something like that you get a sense of how the city has changed. So in terms of finding places that are often overlooked, I like to take a look at the everyday, and say “let’s try and locate this in a historical context.” And if you do that, then you can see how it is that the everyday life that you lead is connected to these broader stories that continue to echo in American history and in a place like Saratoga Springs. JS: Do you think that Broadway and places like that are intentionally designed or presented in a way that makes people think about history? EM: I think it’s getting better, I think that there are efforts on the part of historic preservation in town, and other local historians to say that we need to remember that this history is present, and I don’t think that people always see it, but I think that there is an effort on the part of a lot of local historians to highlight this kind of history as it exists, I just think that people are not programmed to notice it. But there is, I think that there is a real effort in town to try and do this, and it doesn’t make Saratoga Springs unusual, I think you see that in a lot of local communities, it is really hard to break people out of the contemporary mindset and say “this is the past around us,” we’ve got to grasp that, to understand how that past that seems long past is still alive and still shapes the world that we inhabit, I think local historians often have to swim upstream to do that. They do a good job, in Saratoga Springs I think they do a pretty good job but they’re fighting against a tendency of people to think very contemporarily in the way that they understand the world. JS: Do you think that Skidmore students are better about recognizing the subtleties of history found out in the world? EM: I think that if they take the time to think about it they can be very good, and I’ve seen this in my own public history class where students have gone out and they’ve really been given the freedom and the encouragement to go out and really think about these more subtle stories and I think that they have the capacity to do that kind of work if they’re given the chance, and I think that some people in environmental studies do prjects like this where they get students out into the community thinking about environmental issues in a way that we as public historians really want our students to do the same kind of thing. I think if Skidmore – one thing I like about Skidmore students is that you guys do almost everything we ask you to do, and if given a chance you will do great things. So it’s about having the opportunity and getting out and getting off the campus, and getting into town and getting to the battlefield and seeing all of these things. And my experience is that when that happens, when I took students up to see Mount MacGregor, it was eye opening. It was transformative for them to actually see the prison that they were talking about in the class. So I have a lot of faith in Skidmore students. JS: You mentioned environmental studies, do you think that… what other fields of study do you think are beneficial to be studied alongside history? EM: Um, I think, I love it when I have students who take anthropology, um because we do very similar kinds of things, we look back, we put bits and pieces together trying to reconstruct lost worlds, so I love when I have students who are archaeologists, who work with people like Heather Hurst, who are able to �bring that point of view into the classes that I teach. I love having students who are able to contextualize cultural issues, in classes, so I love having students who are English majors, or dance majors, or theater majors, and I think theater in particular is a really cool way to think about storytelling which is what we do as historians. So I think anthropologists, political scientists, these other kinds of humanists, bringing them into the history classes can be fantastic, and I’m kind of running on and it’s going to be like “I love having everybody in class!” But I also, I mean the other thing I would say is that it can be really refreshing having physical and natural scientists taking history classes too, because they will bring to the game different kinds of questions, and they are often really… I can see the lightbulb coming on for example when I have environmental studies majors who emphasize the science part of it, taking an environmental history class. So I like having students from all over the place who bring different points of view, and who think in radically different ways but can inform what we talk about in history by what they bring to the class from these different, these different locations. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview James Sutherland Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eric Morser Location The location of the interview Office of Eric Morser Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data mp3 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. James Sutherland Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 08/03/18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eric Morser Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2/23/18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore-Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Eric Morser is an associate professor in the Skidmore Department of History, and Faculty Director of Civic Engagement. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sutherland, James. '19 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8ee987402bcaa5bbbe79339d6dfcee3b.JPG c8cab190a6abb37c024af5d368ea4045 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1891491c6d584cd7bb2892fc2976516b.mp3 212d9066d5afadf998afdef59ef7374c https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/73284472273c2e5cfeaf854db2052935.pdf 17251ead22547b4f6e860ea3133c722a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/74416900e412ccd6f956ec30547f527a.pdf aa6c26fe5799911cae5e9e65c2bf4e45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eric Weller Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:11:49 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eric Weller Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 16, 2015 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Dym, Jordana; McAdam, Eileen; Stern, Rebecca, '16 Description An account of the resource Eric Weller joined the Philosophy Faculty at Skidmore in 1963.  He became Dean of the Faculty in 1975, a post that he retained until 1990.  Despite Weller’s substantial administrative responsibilities, teaching philosophy remained a central commitment throughout his years at Skidmore. In this interview he describes the transition to Joseph Palamountain’s Presidency from the Wilson years, the College’s move to coeducation, curricular changes of the 70’s and 80’s, and the challenges of being Dean of Faculty.  Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History 4-1-4 Academic Calendar Business Department Faculty Gender Equity Interdisciplinary Collaboration Liberal Studies Palamountain Sociology Department Summer Program Development Tenure Val Wilson https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a57beaee0088c74ff5f8ae6e0c76784e.jpeg dc68dc0127979af1ef772cdfdaaec1ef https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/83f19109e3855d945e1d2c9f287f6419.m4a 409ddf3608e7d09b63fe0a190a77a7e4 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/19ebc8fe1c7418a3c211d974c58b8a4b.m4a 9dc5d09db586a2753b9787d2fc0921d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Smith, Clare Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Esteban Acosto Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Esteban Acosta Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/27/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Esteban discussed being the child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic in the United States Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. Esteban Acosta is a First Year Skidmore student , who grew up in New York City. Both of his parents came to the United States in 1994 from the Dominican Republic. His parents decided to come to the United States to receive greater economic benefits. In his interview , Esteban tells the story of his parents immigration story. He discussed his identity as a child of immigrants and as a child of immigrants from the Dominican Republic. Additionally, Esteban discussed issues of race and racial profiling. bicultural culture Dominican Republic family identity immigration Latinx Skidmore College Skidmore student https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/bb7728d13b337413eee904280491c15e.jpg ad736b49156b2e3832ae2524ce63b376 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/935bd5d7ac4027fa126a88a8e581c51b.m4a 8ce8fd3f456571ffaff64c33a2f96fc5 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/302c148993179e06f3f0bab8b3a22e99.jpg fff7d77e5ab015199ec15c8a7a14b448 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/62e66feefaa9462c2cc743ca8569afa9.pdf 970423d2b78f3c23effe7588bc793ed7 PDF Text Text 1 Title Evelyn Vasquez Interview Date June 2nd, 2018 Language Eng Interviewer Emily Rizzo Location Media Services, Skidmore Library, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format Audio Recording Duration 39:30 Tags HEOP , Opportunity Program , Raíces , Study abroad , Alumni , Oral history , Skidmore College �2 ER: Can we start with you saying your full name, your class year, your major, and where you’re from? E: Class of 1998. originally from the DR, I was born there, grew up in Washington Heights, New York. currently live in Westchester, NY. ER: You said you met your husband here? Can we talk about that? EV: So, we met here. we were both HEOP students. It also happened that he's also Dominican, so I guess there was an attraction, some sort of comfortable place with that. we actually didn’t date until senior year. and that's when we became a couple, things happen in-between, and 10 years after we graduated... yeah 10 years, we got together for good. we have now four kids, two boys and two girls, ages of 12 and four, four through 12. One of the benefits of your partner being from the same school and actually the same year, makes coming back actually so much sweeter. Because he's also comfortable in the environment, he also wants to come and see friends. and we can sort of reminisce together, "Oh you remember in the cafeteria, all the parties we attended..." So, it's sort of an always Skidmore reminder when that happens to someone, which is a good thing. ER: Yeah. What have you guys been reminiscing about? Anything that is really sticking out? EV: Oh, me trying to get all the girls off his back! *Laughs* The majority here are girls. The student population is mostly female, and I think was 60... I don’t know I can’t remember the ratio but... So, I always joke with him, I always had to stand my ground and let the girls know, "Hey he's with me." [Laugh]. ER: It's always a problem here. �3 EV: Then the other thing we reminisce about is our HEOP experience and our HEOP summer. And a character that's always lively from a professor perspective was Sheldon [Solomon, professor of psychology]. So all the funny grades he would give us and then we would say, "You know what? He was right." My husband was saying he got an F- and the comment was, Sheldon wrote, "You should try harder to fail." And then another one was, "You got a D for dog shit." And he's like, "You know what? But he was right." Because he wasn’t up to the quality and it's like... back then we were like, "How dare he give us this grade and say all these comments!" And then we look back and he's like, "You know what, those were great advice." [Laugh]. EV: We reminisce about... We were also part of Raíces. I don’t know if it has the same name, but it was the Latino Hispanic student club and we would do performances. So obviously we were always part of the dancing crew. There was always a group of us that for every Latino celebration we made sure we did some sort of dance performance to a meringue, salsa... {...] and we were always involved with that. And sometimes we'd get upset like, "You're not following me, what are you thinking, pay attention, you don't know how to dance." Cause we would practice a lot, we thought we were professionals on stage because we wanted to put on a good show. It was a cultural show, we wanted to show that off like this is our culture and we're proud of it. So we took time and pride in what we were building to put out for the Skidmore community. EV: Just a couple of things that we reminisce and talk about. ER: That's amazing. I want to ask questions about all those things, but I want to start from the beginning... can you talk about your experience with HEOP? EV: Mind you, this was 20 years ago, so HEOP was the Higher Education Opportunity Program. I think it has evolved a little bit through the years. So back when I started it was mostly for domestic students. I think now we've expanded to serve international students. The perspective to give domestic students, usually from inner-city, who obviously have shown �4 potential through their high school career to have access to outstanding college education. So it came with not only a support system, but it also came with financial aid support as well. Because obviously a lot of kids that came to that program had also financial... required some financial support as well. EV: But what I remember most is all the support the program provided. So, I guess a lot of us came from inner cities where a lot of us didn't receive the best education growing up but we definitely had the potential to develop and obviously be in a classroom with kids that have had a world class education all through their lives. And they had what they call the higher education opportunity program summer, the HEOP Summer, and there you would get tutored in all the foundations to give you a good start for college. So it was the summer before your freshman year. You come in you get an intensive writing course, you get your basic math course, then we also took some sort of psychology... that liberal arts perspective as well. So it was really a program that supported you more than just financially, it was emotionally. I know a lot of us went to the HEOP office for emotional support, people that you can talk to when you're having a hard time. EV: For many of us coming to Skidmore was a culture shock. People talk, "Oh it's the real world." But I look back and I'm like, well I was living in the real world before coming to Skidmore except that everybody looked like me, talked like me...I grew up in a neighborhood in Washington Heights that was predominantly Dominicans, Latinos, so everybody spoke Spanish. I went to high school where 99.9 of the people were people of color. You obviously got exposed out of your real world but pretty much my real world was people like me, that sound like me, that ate like me, that dressed like me, that had curly hair like me right. And then you come into Skidmore and for me it was a culture shock and I'm pretty sure for other students that perhaps never even dealt with somebody of color, it was also a culture shock. So it was sort of the first time that I looked around and I'm like oh I'm the darkest person. That never happened to me. �5 EV: Oh, wait I'm the only one with curly hair. Oh shoot I'm the only one with an accent and you do feel a little bit like an outsider and to be honest that was really hard for me and it took some time for me to understand my environment and try to be successful in it. Not because I couldn't but because everything was... how can I say it? Because other things that should have been okay, became top of mind for me, like my skin color, everything else, my accent. I remember, reading whatever assignment, whatever we had, like 20,000 times because I was like oh my god I have a question, but I want to make sure that it’s not answered in the book because I was like I don't want to speak up. If the answer is in the book then I can figure it out myself but if it’s not, oh I have to raise my hand and speak up and my accent... You sort of feel so much conscious about what is I guess your natural being. EV: So the HEOP was there to support a lot of us through that and make sure that we not only survived in an environment that was not our everyday environment, an environment that we weren't used to, but really strive in it and do well. I mean I think I did great from an academic perspective at Skidmore. I was a double major, I was part of the honors society. So I think if the HEOP office wasn't there I would have most likely gotten lost and a little bit drowned by all these things that became top of mind rather than my focus on my studies. So I look back and I think the HEOP program was really the foundation for me to do well here. EV: And I think back and look back at Skidmore as this great place that opened the world to me in a way. So as you go through it you may not be appreciate but then after you've gone you're like you know what? I'm glad it took me out of my comfortable Washington heights because that was my world, but the world is so much bigger than that. And it's an appreciation for different worlds out there and that are accessible to me. I was reading somewhere; a great college is not one that prepares you for the four years that you're there it's really the one that prepares you for life. And I think that's what Skidmore has done to me; sort of prepare me, not for the four years that I was here because they go by so quickly but what comes after that for the rest of my life and how do I handle myself, how do I carry myself, how do I take advantage of those opportunities that I see and really open the world and a new perspective. �6 ER. Wow thank you so much for sharing, I really appreciate it. EV: No problem, no problem. ER: It's really nice to hear. Thank you. EV: Not a problem. ER: I mean I'm so glad that it exists, the OP program. EV: And I hope that it still does that, I know that Skidmore is doing great strides for diversity and I hope that the Equal Opportunity Program is the backbone to that because it does provide so much more to the students that come in who for some reason may feel different or otherwise that perhaps would not do well without the program. It's a great program. ER: I think Skidmore needs to keep going with it, keep getting better and better, because it's still predominantly white. Most of the teachers are white and teachers, this is something I've been thinking a lot about lately, a lot of the teachers are really just not... are stuck in their comfort zone and not willing to talk about what it means to be white and what white supremacy is and how whiteness affects how they teach and how they should, how race and social issues and the world should be part of the classroom. We're not really talking about that. I'm looking forward to that happening more. EV: Yeah and a lot of the issues that you mention, white supremacy, a lot of people do not, it's so engrained into our society that it happens subconsciously without people thinking about it. I think we do need to take a pause, say what's going on here, because we can put numbers around it. But going back to what I was saying, how do we know when we're successful? And I think that's when somebody like me can come in and not look around and say oh my god I'm �7 the darkest person. Oh my god I'm the only one with curly hair, oh my god I’m the only one with an accent. Instead of numbers its really like when you can have this diverse group of people be part of the community and not feel like they are the only one and they are the one that looks like an outsider. So when we have that, like when people like me don’t have to look and say oh I’m the darkest one, brown skin, I’m the one that sounds kind of weird, looks different. And it's not only a Skidmore problem. It goes beyond that. But yeah what is the school doing, is it doing enough? Or is what it's doing being efficient? Because I'm pretty sure a lot is being done and it's top of mind for the school, but I think we need to take a step back and say okay what are the actions we are taking and is this working? Is this creating the value that we want to be created? And it's something that me as an alumni take seriously. We try to shape that by volunteering, by our time, by giving a different perspective as well. Because I just cannot come back every reunion year and expect things to change if I don't give back and be part of the process and be part of the solution and be part of how can we make Skidmore better? So it works both ways as well. But yeah, I definitely agree there is much work to be done and I know it's top priority for Skidmore. Whether it is where we want it to be, I’m not sure. ER: Well thank you so much for your work, your devotion to this place. What ideas do you have? I mean are you seeing some things that Skidmore is doing and saying this isn't efficient and what do you think Skidmore should be doing? I feel like you will have a perspective as an alum... You're saying that you're aware that this is top priority right but maybe it's not efficient. What do you think they can do to be better or what's something new they can do? EV: That's a good question and I don't think I have the answer. [Laugh]. I definitely have some ideas. This is the thing with diversity because you need to have a balance... an easy one is you need to increase your diversity numbers, which I think Skidmore is doing. But I think it's once the student gets here, what support are they being provided. What can the college do more from that social engagement? Which I think was something that I didn't have. And again, it could have changed. To give an example, some of it could be my fault but also... some of it like I �8 said could be self-inflicted, but also some of it could have probably been a little bit relieved by the college. So one of the... I don’t want to say one of the biggest regrets but if I could do something over in college its expose myself socially more. Because I was so concerned about oh my god I represent not just me but my race, my ethnicity, that you don’t want to be the dumbest person in the class. I think... and again I'm talking personally, I created this bubble around me where I didn't socialize as much with people outside of my HEOP classmates. I always look back and I’m like how know what I could have socialized a bit more I could have engaged more with people. And again, some of it is self-inflicted but I think if there was some sort of way to increase that social engagement it would be a win win for the college and for the student because going back the HEOP provided great support great emotional and academic support but I think for that social engagement with everybody else within the college and within your classmate was a little bit failing. Again I don’t know if there exists something that can create these environments and for that socialization to happen, but I think it’s important. Because then what you're going to have is people still staying in their own little groups you know, and you’ll only have a few that might be branching out and creating friendships outside and sort of creating that social dynamic, which I believe then would impact everything else. at least that’s... that would be some of the things that I would improve. looking at what kind of social opportunities are there for that engagement to happen. because the other thing with diversity is, anything that’s like you call it diversity only certain people will show up, which are the people that identify themselves as diverse for a reason or other. and so what happens then, even that group it’s the "diverse" group only, when it should actually be imbedded within the total community. I was actually for one of my last employers, I was one of the diversity recruitment. And we had a bunch of activities. And I’m like you know what it’s great that we're talking about diversity but the only people that are coming to this diversity talk are the African Americans or Latinos or women and I’m like where’s everybody else? were like preaching to the choir. So it’s like how do we make diversity so that at it becomes a natural to the backbone of the Skidmore experience, rather than just these pockets of activities that are happening. where then only people that are affected by some diversity issue attend, its like I said, it’s like you’re �9 preaching to the choir, amen hallelujah. you’re not doing it to the entire congregation. so I think it’s that. its embedding it through the whole Skidmore experience. EV: How do you do that? I mean that's a great question. [Laugh]. ER: That's another story. Okay I want to ask, what was your favorite class here? Do you remember? EV: Oh my god, so you know what? I remember what was my favorite class and I don't know if they do this but BU107... Let me go back. So I was a double major in business and government. And the first class that I had was BU107. I don't know if it's still the same curriculum, but you study... you select a group of people, you study a company, and then at the end of the semester you present a big presentation about that company’s sort of financials, marketing strategy, operation strategy and you present it in front of a panel. oh my god that presentation, I remember my legs were shaking like crazy because I wasn’t used to public speaking. and it stuck. I was so nervous I mean I can still feel... every time I think about it I can still feel my hands getting sweaty, my team... we [were] standing outside the room with our corporate attire and my legs are shaking oh my god I think I had the financial piece of it. oh man. so it was one of those classes, at least for me, coming from where I was coming from, where it’s like you either swim or drown kind of deal. so I don’t know if it’s my favorite but it’s definitely the one that I remember the most and I think about it and I’m like oh I can totally take back all these emotions that I was feeling at that moment. I remember that into today, my hands were sweaty my legs were shaking. it was in itself an experience to have. I think it was a good experience. it puts you out there in front of people that are evaluating you, and then I remember dreading oh my god they're going to have questions they're going to ask questions, what questions do they have? So I remember that class. ER: So is it one of those things that you appreciate more now... �10 EV: Yeah you definitely appreciate it more because I was like I’ve never spoken in front of anyone. and I definitely have brought out ideas or anything that I’ve studied out to the open and saying this is what I think and challenge it and never had the opportunity to be in that opportunity. It’s great it’s what you do in your everyday... I don’t want to say life but definitely in your job. you present your ideas and people want to challenge it and then you come back and say that’s great but let’s look at it this way. so I think it was a great stepping stone. I look at it with a lot of.... not reminiscing.... with a positive mindset. ER: That class is a big deal still. EV: It's still a big deal? Okay. ER: Oh, I know... I always see the groups together, they’re dressed up. It's one of the classes that I wished I experienced because it seems like such an experience, you learn so much. EV: It is, and you do. You're preparing for it. Every semester. it’s not like the last three days before the presentation. you’re studying the company, you’re looking things up. I remember my business case was Robert Mondavi wine, winery. Which back then was starting. Now I think it’s big but that was our study case, the Robert Mondavi company. And I remember that [laugh] and it was 24 years ago. So it was nice. It was nice. Let's see what other class I took... I took some government courses which was interesting. I took dance. I actually wanted to minor in dance, I took modern dance one and two, I took ballet one and two. And then I took an improvisational course, dance improvisation or something like that and we did a performance and my friend came out of that saying, "Yeah stick to business." [laugh]. They were good friends [laughs]. So I didn't take a dance class after that [laugh]. And I was like well that’s kind of mean and they were like yeah you know [laugh] stick to business and government for now, leave the dance. but it was great. I got to experience that. so yeah, I mean it was fun. it was fun doing the dance classes. �11 ER: That's so Skidmore, to take a random dance class. EV: Yeah [laugh]. I never took ceramics oh my god, that’s the one that I always wanted to take, and it just never quite made it into my schedule. My junior year I actually was not at Skidmore. That was a year that I spent away from Skidmore. Because first the fall of my junior year I went to American University and I did the semester there and I got an internship with senator Moynihan back then. That was awesome. that was an awesome experience. You probably don't know Senator Moynihan, but he was the Senator that we can refer back as coining the phrase, "You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts." Which is so true for today. He coined it so many years ago. He passed away, he was the senior senator for New York. And my job was simple as an intern there. I needed to open the letters that we get from his constituents and say okay this is related to education, this one is related to the environment, the highways, so sort of organize them in the buckets they belong. But it was just a great experience being on capitol hill and doing that and seeing him walking down the hall and you’re just like, “Wahh that’s Senator Moynihan.” ER: That's so cool. That was through Skidmore? EV: That was through Skidmore yeah. Skidmore participated in that American University program. It's mostly government courses and part of that program was to get an internship so that was my internship that I got there so it was great. Then my Spring semester I went to Spain through Skidmore study abroad program in Spain. And that was wonderful. When I'm telling you, it was an eye opener, it was amazing. I mean just the flight getting there, it’s like, wait we have to be more than four hours in the air plane? How is that possible? I remember we needed to get research... And I’m like it’s this many hours in the airplane it’s like a whole day! Yeah just it’s all that, it’s just great and the Skidmore program was so great because you not only took that culture immersion through the Skidmore program there but perhaps unlike other study abroad programs you got to take courses at the university. which was awesome. so you actually go to socialize with Spanish students there. so it wasn’t just you and your own little Skidmore �12 friends in the Skidmore center you actually went out there with the other students. you went to university classes like you would here. Your professors were Spanish professors. It was an amazing experience. That was great. That definitely opened my world. Definitely a defining moment of my Skidmore experience. It's an opportunity that a lot of perhaps college kids do not get through their campus and here it’s there pretty much for anyone who’s interested. I believe there’s GPA requirements but other than that the program (needs stability). That was great for anybody who wanted to participate in such things. For me it was definitely an eye opener. I don't think I... coming to Skidmore I didn't even know that existed, study abroad programs, I didn't know about that. Just coming here... If I tell you the reason why I chose Skidmore [laugh], it's actually a pretty funny one. It had nothing to do with rankings. Yu know a lot of people, I guess it's about the experience and peoples' backgrounds but... and I’m pretty sure my kids would do this... but... people put time and research in schools and visiting schools and what is their ranks and what career they're going to have and what are their majors, I wasn’t thinking like that. all my mom said was you need to go to college. I was like okay. that was the expectation in my family. and I remember I went to a college fair with my cousin, we were the same age, and there was a Skidmore table there and they said... so we went we were visiting tables and we ended up in the Skidmore table, and there where was people from the admissions office, there was this lady from the HEOP office, Michelle Dupree, I don’t think she’s... She’s no longer with Skidmore but she was definitely into getting me here. so, they were putting out a flyer of a one weekend program at Skidmore. they would pick you up at 42nd street, bring you up from New York City for the weekend. you get to get mini classes, they give you housing and food while you were here. So, I looked at my cousin and was like oh let’s go there. and they mentioned a party and I’m like, "Oh a party? are boys going to be there? yeah okay fine great sign me up. and its free and you come pick me up and you bring me back?" so me and my cousin signed up, thinking it’s a party there’s going to be boys, we were 17 years old right, so I come here... First of all, the drive was beautiful because it was in the fall. And you get one of the current students to host you, so you get to go to their dormitory and stay with them, we had sleeping bags. But guess what? Those rooms are huge for two people. So I remember asking my host, the current student, I’m like " Wait this entire room is for two people? With this �13 big closet? I mean we're five in my family and we all were sharing one room. And it's like, sign me up, where do I come here? I get my own closet [laugh]. Not the rankings, not the major, I was just like what I get my own room my own closet! It's all about the people coming in and what are their backgrounds and experiences. But now I know better and for my kids they’re going to be looking at rankings and what the school has to offer... how many of the students get jobs after graduation. that’s one of the important metrics. but for me it wasn’t like that. all I knew was that I needed to go to college and all I knew was I lived in a crammed apartment with five of us sharing a tiny room and one closet and it was amazing when I came here, and I was like wow just one closet for me I don’t have to share with nobody? This bedroom just me with one other person? So yeah it was definitely an experience. There you go that's how I chose Skidmore. Skidmore chose me too. Because I think it was luck of the draw me going to that table. It was definitely... probably one of the luckiest days of my life when I ended up saying, "okay fine, sign me up." They had a nice party and I'm like "Oh it’s going to be like this all the time." Nah. [Laugh]. I wouldn’t call Skidmore a party school. I don’t think so. Not at least in my experience. But maybe for other people it was that. My 4 years here, I think they were that. They definitely took me out of my comfort zone, which at the time that you're going through it you don’t see all the good things. But definitely after I graduated it was like "Oh my god that was the best thing that happened." All the opportunities that I got, all the experiences that I was able to take advantage of and pursue, definitely makes me a better person today and a more worldly person with a more worldly view of what I think, what my opinions are and what I think does matter, and how can you sort of have an impact to improve things and others. ER: Thank you so much this has been really really great. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rizzo, Emily, '18 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Vasquez, Evelyn Yesenia Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Evelyn Yesenia Vaszquez, '98 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1 June 2018 Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Emily Rizzo, '18 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a17adb2b6c0e75c6ebf2ca0d34cbe8bb.jpg 05a8b3f48408ac9e3ac5315fd81e8226 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f263f04145f8d9c09310b1629592326d.mp3 7f2cce58c5dd5ba8187fa0236c5eca68 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Evolution of Beekman Street (20th century-2016) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/13/16 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Skidmore College Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS: 113A Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College Description An account of the resource History of Beekman street, evolution of Beeekman, artist identities/roles, the future. Language A language of the resource English Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wave file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Zotero Interviewee Amejo Amyot, M'elle Pirii-Lee, Cecilia Frittelli, Interviewer Jonah Brenner, Amanda Peckler, Yuelin He, Max Lowe, Dejon Bunn-Constant Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Maximillian Lowe Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geroge Demers Location The location of the interview WSPN Studio Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 53:34 Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 00:00:00 Introduction 00:00:54 Moving to Saratoga 00:02:48 Getting priced out of Beekman street 00:04:54 Beekman street in the 1900s 00:07:05 The Saint Anothony's feast 00:08:40 Gangsters, prostitutes, and servants 00:10:30 East side vs west side 00:11:25 Kids hanging out 00:12:30 Youth group 00:15:15 Bureaucratic problems with the youth center 00:17:30 A lack of culture in Saratoga 00:18:00 Watercolor art 00:20:00 Living on the west side of Saratoga 00:21:53 New artists in Beekman 00:28:26 The lack of a Saratoga community 00:31:50 New Jersey Korean tacos 00:33:50 The future of Saratoga 00:37:00 WSPN radio 00:38:00 Authentic artists 00:41:45 Moving into the the Saratoga community 00:45:44 Saratoga's disconnected relationship with Skidmore students 00:50:10 The new Saratoga/closing thoughts Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 12/14/2016 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Demers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/14/2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Memory Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS113A: Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College Description An account of the resource George Demers is a longtime Saratoga resident with a relationship that dates back to the origins of Beakman Street. George discusses a unique perspective on Saratoga's art culture, or the lack thereof. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maximillian Lowe Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga Springs -- Beekman Street Arts District -- History oral history https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6f601da325c53c4807cfa75b5ead75e5.jpg 653268a7c4eca6bc7088db2d16fbaaec https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d9649161ded7395b963578a5047412ef.m4a 92a3ecfebe2e75423552e3fc8d0175af https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9a6b78c72f22d934d5346ed9d85b0b23.pdf 26758711ce848bfa6279c6da13abad1d PDF Text Text 1 Hess Interview with Gregory Hess by Harry Sultan, Skidmore College Saratoga Memory Project, Skidmore College, NY June 1st, 2018 Harry Sultan: So we're all set to get started. If I could just have you introduce yourself. Gregory Hess: Sure. My name's Gregory Hess, or Greg, and I'm from the class of '78. HS: And uh what did you major in when you were at Skidmore? GH: I had a double major in biology and in chemistry and then a minor in business. HS: What is it like to come back to this campus that you graduated from all those years ago. GH: It's a little odd in that it reminds you of how old you are. I can't believe I graduated forty years ago from Skidmore and I think most people my age all say the same thing that when we look in the mirror, we imagine someone in their twenties or in their thirties but can't imagine someone in their sixties. That usually strikes me when I come back to campus. And the other part is that it's grown tremendously and it's still very vibrant which is great. HS: Is this your first time back? GH: No, I've been back several times. HS: And is it different every time you come back? GH: I would say so, you know it continues to grow. I mean literally there are new buildings, things are being renovated. I was back just giving a small lecture to one of the classes about a month ago and I'd been back for a number of occasions, so I always see change which is part of Skidmore's motto HS: And walking around on campus, is there any spot that you see that brings you immediately back to when you were a student? GH: Um, you know probably the dining hall. It's much nicer now in terms of when we were here physically. Although I have to say at the time, Skidmore food was still pretty renowned in the northeast as one of the better places to go to college and have a good meal. But it's much more upscale now. HS: What does it feel to see the dining hall as it is now and remember what it was like back then? GH: You know, very positive. Great experiences there, shoot the breeze about what had happened during the day and what was coming up. So it's just a great place to socialize. And the food, again, was pretty good so you can't complain. But now you look around and they have all the food stations and �2 Hess HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: a lot of different options and variety and you realize the school has changed but I think for the better. And outside of chemistry and biology and science classes, what other types of classes did you take at Skidmore. Probably the most odd one in a way was, I took ballet when I was here. That's the type of thing that I of course didn't anticipate when I first came to Skidmore What was it like to take a ballet class? It was very funny at first. You may know the history, but when I was here, Melissa Hayden was a prima ballerina for the New York City Ballet and was very very well known. And it was shortly after she left that position that Skidmore was able to recruit her which was considered quite a coup at the time and I had no familiarity with ballet at all - I'm not even sure if I had ever seen a ballet. So we were starting the Skidmore Hockey Club and after one of our later night practices had ended, we all sort of barged into one of the faculty get togethers that was going on to see if we could scarf down the last appetizers and things that were still there. So uh - they were fine about it - you know it had dwindled down to a small crowd and I started talking to this one woman, you know, more interested in the hors d’oeuvres than chatting, but I was trying just to be social. And so as I started asking her questions, things along the lines of "oh are you a faculty member here, or are you the wives of one of the faculty?". She said "no I teach here" and started telling me more - someone later said, you know thats Melissa Hayden, the prima ballerina of New York City - and part of our conversation when I said I was teaching skiing up the road at West Mountain and Gore and on the hockey team, she was explaining to me how athletic it is to be a ballet dancer and so I was really more just kidding I said, 'yea that'd be great to take ballet, yea.' So next thing you know I got in those days we didn't really have email - I think I got a note in the mail from the registrar saying 'you're failing phys-ed something-or-other' and I'm not sure how it happened, but apparently she signed me up for ballet. So she wouldn't let me out without trying at least a couple of classes, so that's how I got into ballet. And do you think it helped you in skiing and hockey? It really did, I was amazing at how much strength it took to do that. You know, I was a horrible dancer, but it was a great activity for me. And I must say, it helped me get into medical school eventually which is one of my primary professions. She wrote me a great recommendation, and when I was being interviewed in fact, they remarked on it. That they were �3 Hess HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: interested in diversity and were pleased to see that I took something out of just science and biology. And so you took a lot of science, biology, dance; outside of academics what sort of things did you do? I was fortunate that Skidmore gave me a great deal of financial aid to come here but at the same time when I came - so I'll put it in context, I was a bit overwhelmed by the ratio of men to women so I think as part of that and also though still having a lot of financial need, I ended up getting a job bartending downtown, that was when the drinking age was still eighteen in New York - and I was actually seventeen when I first came here but they didn't think to ask for an ID, my birthday is late October. So I ended up bartending at a number of places in town and waiting tables and that gave me another dimension. A lot of the Skidmore students would come there but a lot of friends who were quote townies as we referred to them at the time, but you know, great people. And then I had a lot of friends that I developed, again, from teaching skiing, so that was a great experience to have sort of a foot in the Skidmore Saratoga Springs environment and also at the ski centers. So what was it like, maybe not having two separate lives, but two separate social scenes, one on campus with Skidmore students and one downtown with the locals. It really was the best of both worlds. Because I bartended downtown and Skidmore was about 2,000 students at the time - fairly similar to today you get to at least know by recognition, if not name, most of the students. And the bars I was a bartender in were extremely popular at the time, so you know a ton of students would come up and I'd know them, and we'd chit-chat briefly. So it was a great way to see the students and at the same time I did a number of things with the folks from town. In fact there was one group of guys that were recent grads from other colleges who had just migrated here to have jobs and they were in their early 20s and were quite a cast of characters. So they actually got written up in the New York Times as an example called the TI's which stood for 'terminally immature'. And you know, they had their pros and cons but they were largely hysterical guys in many aspects, and it was great had a great group of guy friends that gave me, again, another dimension. But had a lot of great guy friends on campus too. So you said you were part of the hockey club? I was. I was one of the founding members, yep. And is that the same hockey club that's around today. �Hess 4 GH: It is. I think it's morphed into, if I understand right, into division three hockey here. So yea, at the time ya know, it was a great experience. I grew up in the time when we were still influenced by John Kennedy in the sixties and even in the Vietnam days in the seventies when people said, 'ya know, we can make things happen'. So I think at Skidmore at the time, part of the reason they made it clear that they were - if you would - sort of recruiting me, and they were great in the admissions process, made it clear that they would value me coming here, and made it possible for me to come here was they were looking for men to help really create the co-educational environment and that included things like starting sports. Cause when I came here there was soccer and that was the only sport. So they encouraged us to start clubs so we did with the hockey team. You know, we went to the phys-ed head and said, 'ya know, we wanna do this' and one of the Kennedy sayings I liked at the time was, 'if not us, then who. And if not now, then when?". So we started a lot of things like that. We also started the baseball team and it was just a bunch of guys that got together and it was great. And we actually had women on our hockey team by the way, that time we had so few guys we had two women who had come from some of the New England prep schools and we were actually quite good which I think surprised some of the clubs that showed up to play us from Union and Hamilton and other groups. HS: Did you play hockey and baseball in high school or did you start just for the sake of starting a team. GH: Almost really for the sake of starting the team. Mostly I played a lot of hockey, pond hockey as we would call it, so it was pretty familiar to me that way. I didn't play baseball in school, I did play soccer and tennis and periodically I played one year on the tennis team here, and played on the soccer team three or maybe four years here. HS: Are there any special memories from starting the club, I mean what was it like being the founder of something that is now something so big in Skidmore culture? GH: You know it was just a ton of fun. I was just, to be clear, I was one of a number of guys that got together and founded it but I would say one of the things I think about is because ice time is cheapest late at night or early in the morning, we were last on the peg. We played on a rink down on East Avenue or just off it if I remember, and really it was an outdoor rink that they just had enclosed it in wood. It was pretty rustic. So we would get really hot and sweaty playing through the periods and when we were sitting on the benches because it wasn't a fancy arena and pretty cold it was very common that many times after sitting out for the period you'd get up and �5 Hess HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: you'd realize there were icicles hanging off your hair literally. And we'd be breaking them off. And there was no locker room, we'd change up here and go down. And it was just a lot of fun, a lot of great contact. I ended up playing goalie, was one of the funnier things that happened at one point because our goalie, if I remember right, got his wrist broken or sprained in a slap-shot and no one else wanted to be goalie and it was something like I stepped out for a second and came back and they said, 'great, we just elected you our new goalie'. And I was horrible. And no surprise I think my nickname was a sieve which was very appropriate. And so did this all happen during your freshman year that you started the club? Ya know, I really don't remember. I think it was probably more my sophomore year or junior maybe. And do you remember your first night at Skidmore? I don't remember my first night, I do remember my first day. Vividly. Could you talk about that? Sure. The first class I walked into was an english seminar class in Case Center at the time, so those were relatively small rooms. And it was an oval, or oblong table, sat maybe twelve-to-fourteen people. And when I walked in I realized, and we sat down, we were waiting for the teacher who was a bit late, and we're all sitting there in silence, no one really knew each other and everybody was feeling a little awkward. I realized there were two guys and there were twelve women. And I was like, 'oh my god, what have I got myself into'. I don't think I'd even had thought to ask really what's the ratio before I came here, so at first that was really overwhelming. The other thing I remember though is my roommate who was very very quiet. We had nothing to do, we were just sitting in our room so I said 'come on, let's just go out and take a walk around'. So we were walking around, and most people as well I think were feeling pretty awkward so you know, you'd walk towards someone, and they'd look up and we just started saying hello, and most people would say hello back, and that was great, we were getting the reaction you'd anticipate and hope for. And then we came upon one person and, it was a woman, and I remember we both said, ya know, 'hi, how are you' and we got no response and we were a little puzzled and put off and they walked another ten feet past us and we both looked at each other and he turned around and said 'what's your problem?' So we got still no response, but I still remember that cause my roommate just cracked me up. Did you ever find out who she was? I didn't. I didn't. Mystery, yea that's right. �Hess 6 HS: And what was the adjustment like being that there was so few men at the time going into this recently co-ed school. GH: You know, at first for me it really was overwhelming. I was I think relatively shy at that time and hadn't had a serious girlfriend in high school et cetera, so I'm not sure but I think all that combined and the lack of sports, there wasn't even a locker room for men there wasn't a male dorm on campus, there was a floor on the 7th story of the tall dorm here. And in fact we used to call it heaven on the seventh floor. Ya know it was overwhelming. So I actually transferred, or actually applied to transfer out but by the time I was accepted and then gotten the acceptance in the spring, I had made enough good friends and kind of adjusted to the amount of women that were here, and a lot became good friends of mine. You know I love the place and decided to stay. HS: Was there one thing in particular that made you flip that switch to loving Skidmore? GH: I don't think there was one thing. I think there was that combination. I mean among other things, I guess a specific example I was accepted at Cornell for transfer, and they had two electron microscopes. And in Skidmore we still have - I think it might even be the same one, it's probably a newer one than when I was here. But that was pretty amazing that a school of 2,000 people had an electron microscope worth at that time hundreds of thousands if not more than that dollars. And yet I could go in and use it almost virtually any time so that was great and it really was a great learning experience. But I went to Cornell and they had two and I thought 'oh that's great' and I mention it to one of the people almost as a question of how to get access to it. And they said, 'well undergrads really don't get access to that, you know once you're a grad student you might get access to it but you have to be on a waiting list and there's only so much time'. So I started to realize things like the professors here were primarily dedicated to teaching and not so much research and Cornell as I started to really look at it, you were taught more often by grad students who were really teachers assistants and the professors were really more interested in publishing, in research, in grants, in really not teaching. So things like that really made a difference for me. Here, the students, the night life downtown was just hysterical, it was great. HS: Were there any teachers that stick out in your mind as really helping you move on throughout college and what you ended up doing afterward? GH: Ya know, there were a lot. I still remember Bob Mahoney was head of I think biology, and head of the department. And then Roy Myers at the time was here. And they were great, fully accessible. At the time I was not your �7 Hess HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: typical student by any stretch and they put up with me and were encouraging and they were great. Why weren't you the typical student? Well I think probably one of the examples was I worked two-to-three jobs when I was here because I had to make ends meet. As part of that, when I graduated from Skidmore I had a pretty high GPA fortunately and had a pretty rigorous schedule with the double major and a minor and so on. So the logical thing to do was to apply to medical school. And at the time it was pretty competitive at the time to get in, I think it was roughly twelve applicants for every one acceptance so they had said, 'ya know where are you applying' and I said 'I'm not applying, I've always wanted to see how good a skier I could be, so I'm going to go out in Colorado and teach skiing and race full time and see what I can do'. And ya know so I think most of the people would shake their head and in fact one of the faculty members said 'you'll never get into medical school'. And ya know Roy and Bob Mahoney said, 'look, totally get it and ya know it's a bit of a risk, but you need to do what you think's best and ya know, go for it' Were your friends at Skidmore also naysaying? Oh no I think they were all, they said 'great, go for it' and were they all also in the same, bio-chem sphere or from sports, or ballet? Ya know, it was such a small campus of 2,000-or-so and only I think about 200-or-so guy, actually when I left it was maybe like 300. I think I had friends across the different environments. There were only I think twelve biology/chemistry majors at the time on campus and I think almost all of them were women, probably statistically. So I had friends who were taking english studies and all sorts of other things, so it was a pretty diverse group. For example, my roommate who only stayed a semester was in fine arts and became a fine arts painter, ya know still makes his living today in Connecticut and has had a lot of very high priced paintings that he's done that've been accepted, but he decided after six months he really just wanted to paint, but still we've stayed in touch and he's a great guy. So what was your average week like between classes and skiing and hockey and two jobs? One of the things I learned was I actually do better on almost all measure for me, including happiness and certainly academics, when I was scheduled. So I'd say during the busiest parts of the year which was winter for me, I would typically have a pretty full day of class because science classes start early in the morning with labs and things and when I finished up with them, a typical, I'd play a sport so say, we'll say late in the season �8 Hess HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: maybe before winter, we'd still have soccer that'd be four to five-thirty. By the time we got up to the dining room it was about ready to close, we'd all pile in and eat dinner quickly and then I'd go to the library from six to ten I think was my routine and just really study and then, again the drinking age was eighteen, to reward ourselves, we'd hop in the car and zip downtown for a beer at Tin and Lint or Harold J which was a big bar then. Barclays was pretty big later on. So we'd have a beer, back in bed by 11, go to sleep around 11:30 or so, wake up and do it all over again. And what was your typical nightlife on the weekend? The weekends for me was pretty much when I bartended and waited tables so for me the busiest weekend would be - and some weekends I just played, but mostly I was working - when I was working at the restaurant after class, I'd be there at 4 to set up. I'd wait tables from 4 to 10 and then I'd get out of there and I'd go to one of the bars and then I'd bartend at Harold J's from about 10:30, 11, till about 4 A.M. when they closed and then I'd get back, maybe take a quick nap, shower then I'd go up to West Mountain, teach skiing Saturday and then I'd come back, usually wasn't waiting tables and I'd go back and bar tend again from 11 till 4AM. And then Sunday I'd sleep in. That's a schedule. It was, it was, but when you're young you know, you can do it. Did you do that all four years? Pretty much, you know it changed a little here and there over the years but I pretty much had two or sometimes three jobs, part time, just piecing them together. And do you feel like you were able to learn in your jobs to help academically or things academically to help your jobs at all? Ya know I think so in a bit because it taught you the basics like show up on time, ya know, be responsible, fundamentally do the right thing. So I think so, ya know Skidmore really I thought was a highly ethical place, for a better term, people were trying to do the right thing. Did you study abroad? I didn't. What made you choose to stay on campus? I don't think they had many abroad programs at the time. And my academic schedule was so packed that I don't think, if I remember right, it would have really worked for me to go abroad to get the biology/chemistry requirements and the business requirements that I had I didn't have many electives open. And did you have one go-to best friend? �Hess 9 GH: Ya know, it probably changed, well it did change a bit over time. The first was my head resident a guy named Allan Braunstein, so one of the earliest guys. And he was a great guy and he was classic open door policy so his apartment, the head resident apartment of course was pretty big and it was like Grand Central Station, so he was a great guy and later his brother actually transferred in from BU or BC, I can't recall, and he became a good friend too, Ron Braunstein. HS: What made you so close to these guys? GH: Ron and I played hockey together, just in general they were involved and organizers. Allan Braunstein being a head resident organized everything; we had a water festival at the time, I'm not sure if it still goes on. He was a big skier. We actually had a ski rope tow when I came in fact. So we would take a few quick runs down there, it was pretty small but we would ski over there. And we were just involved in all the antics like going downtown was again a big part of campus life here. Thursday night was one of the more interesting nights, you would go down to a bar that, if I understand right was the one portrayed in Animal House where they showed the guys in the road trip and go into this bar with a couple of girls from a college. Well the guys are coming supposedly from Dartmouth in real life and it's Skidmore girls that they meet up with and the bar that they go into used to be called the Golden Grill and it was a predominately blacks or African Americans during the week if you would. And Thursday night for some reason at midnight - I think the cover became free or they had some beer special that at midnight it would all change, so all the Skidmore people would pour in, which at that time was predominately pretty homogenous white, Caucasian class. And it got to be the point that the bartenders that the Golden Grill - we used to call it the Golden Griddle - would call it white night. And looking back it was probably politically incorrect but it was literally as much as you saw in Animal House. You saw lots of town people who were not Skidmore people dancing with Skidmore girls there were African American guys with white upper middle class Skidmore girls, and it was hysterical, everyone was relaxed and had a lot of fun. HS: And this was an every Thursday night thing? GH: Pretty much. I might have the night wrong at this point but I think so. Tuesday night was Tin and Lint, ten cent or nickel beers; hard to look back on that. Wednesday night, I can't remember what that was. But Thursday night I'm pretty sure was Golden Grill white night and it would just go on from there. HS: And so as you went through the years was there anything you wished you did differently? �Hess 10 GH: I wish I'd spent more time getting to know other people better. You know we were all busy and as I mentioned my schedule kept me pretty busy but I remember feeling a little uneasy about coming back to reunion and thinking 'what was it going to be like' and 'how many old friends will show up'. And some friends show up and that's great, but what I've found out at one of the early reunions was that I actually met people from my class that I barely knew. And I might have known their face but almost didn't know their name or might have known their name, and when I had a chance to finally sit down and talk with them, no surprise they're great people; really smart, really kind, great people. And I thought, 'man I wish I got to know them when I was in college'. HS: And as you were approaching graduation, did you and your friends feel optimistic about post graduation, post college world? GH: I think there was probably both, but I think in a way, for me, I was pretty optimistic. I think we were so dumb we didn't know what we don't know. So I think we felt pretty much like, 'look, we got a great education behind us, we're healthy, we've got the ability and the tools to go out and really do something'. I wasn't quite sure what it was going to be, I didn't know at the time that I would apply to medical school, I didn't do that until years after I came back and worked in admissions so I really didn't know how things were going to turn out but I think I felt optimistic overall. HS: What was it like being on the other side of Skidmore, going from a student to an employee? GH: It was great, it really was great. It was like working at a country club in a way I realized one day, in that I was just a few years older, I came back after I had ski'd for a few years and had one other job. It was still the same dean who had accepted me and she said, 'look, you really know Skidmore, you'll be a great asset et cetera' and I remember the time, because I was so naive that I probably shouldn’t have said this but at the time there were rumors that Skidmore was lowering its standards for men because they wanted to get co-educational more quickly. So I think it was probably inappropriate in the interview me saying, 'I want to be clear though, I'm not gonna accept students if I read their folders, or recommend acceptance, for students who are sub par'. And I was so refreshed, she said, 'no, we are holding men to the exact same standard as women, and we're in this for the long haul and we want to build a thriving long term campus'. So being on the other side of the coin was refreshing in kind of the same sort of ethical environment from professors in doing the right thing and students as well and the same thing I saw in the administration. And you know they weren't �11 Hess HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: perfect, none of us are perfect, but they really had their hearts in the right place. So what is it like now seeing that there are 2500 kids up from 2000, it's a 60/40 split, how does that feel looking back from where you're coming from? It does feel great in many ways. I mean we had some special experiences that can't be repeated because it was the time, someone, sometimes it was the ratio that made certain things, I don't think would happen anymore in a positive way. But I think looking now, change is right the only constant in life, and Skidmore has changed for the better. It's academically stronger than when I was here - even though it was a strong school. It's got many many more sports, it's hopefully better endowed, its got tremendous facilities, I think it's got a great vision. SO I'm proud, it's a great college, and I'm very glad I came here and it gave me the tools to be a constant student so thats probably the best tools that it gave me, to be a constant student. That's what I see when I come here, is that students are learning how to learn and be a lifelong student. And if you meet someone today that is thinking about going to Skidmore, what would you tell them? Yea I would certainly recommend it. In fact I've got a daughter in high school, I don't know where she'll go, it'll be her decision, but yea I used to be an interviewer, an alumni interviewer. I think for the right person it's a great school. I think the question a number of people get is, 'what can you do with a liberal arts education?', and my view is the reciprocal, almost what can't you do with a liberal arts education? When you think about, I think it's not so important what you come out of Skidmore with in terms of your degree, but I think if it teaches you to be that constant constructive, inquisitive person to realize that learning doesn't end when you leave your undergrad or even your grad degree, goes on forever. I'm not sure if that was a hyperbole for that example, but I think Skidmore really instilled in me, I have three degrees, two masters and a doctorate and that's partly how I'm hardwired but Skidmore really encouraged me to keep learning. I think I did three or four, four fellowships after that and ya know I think I'll continue to go on learning until they put me in the ground. What are those degrees in? I'm a physician so I have an M.D., and then I have a masters in Health Care Services Research which is kind of a combination of how health care systems work; epidemiology, statistics. And then I have an MBA from Wharton in Health Economics. �Hess 12 HS: And when you were a freshmen did you ever imagine yourself where you are now? GH: Not at all. In fact I really thought seriously about being a full time bartender forever. It seemed liked a great lifestyle and in fact one of the guys from town I worked with who was ancient at the time - he was in his thirties basically said, 'do this for life, it's great. When I go home, I go home' There were a lot of plusses, so I had no idea where I was going to head. HS: Do you have any anecdotes about a time that the liberal arts mentality directly affected how you thought about something that came up while you were getting your masters degree or in your career that had you not had the liberal arts education you would not have been able to approach the same way? GH: Ya know I'm not sure if this is directly on point with kind of your question but ya know maybe. And maybe it's a bit in the way I'm hardwired, but I think Skidmore encouraged or allowed that. So maybe a good example is when I left Skidmore, although I wasn't happy 100% of the time with everything that happened here I really thought my money was well spent, their money was well spent, they gave me a great education, faculty were dedicated to us and teaching was the primary role of the instructors and professors. And when I went to medical school years later which was a lot more expensive and presumably a lot more competitive I really had high expectations that this is going to be the best experience I've ever had. And I would say that I was almost aghast at how poorly I thought the educational system was in medical school. So I guess my point is, it lead me to do two things that were pretty unusual even for my medical school classmates at the time. One was I got a grant from the American Medical Association that allowed me to do almost any constructive project over the summer between my first and second year and I wrote a literature-based review on teaching principles and teaching techniques and I even talked to some of the teachers here, but I wrote a pretty constructive but scathing review of how the medical school educational system was set up and why it was so dysfunctional and why it was a poor set up for teaching our future physicians and the school did not like it to say the least. They literally stuck it in a drawer.When I went to the office to see, and I asked the dean if he had read it and he said, 'yes i did', he pulled out a drawer, showed me the paper and said, 'and this is where it's going to stay'. So I think in part it in encouraged me to constructively question things and not just to complain but to propose constructive solutions and in fact thats what I did, I think, in that review. I think the other thing it did to do was to be a little non conventional, so in medical school I felt the school was so poor in terms of �13 Hess HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: HS: GH: its instruction it was mostly just memorization that I actually got a job full time again, but I got a job as a financial planner and I would pretty much not attend class at medical school for the first two years because it was just memorization and I would go off and do my job, go home at night and memorize the text and come back and take my tests and progress on. Really until your third year when you're seeing patients, yea you could be taking it anywhere. So I think if it wasn't for Skidmore, I'm not sure where I would have really had the confidence to do that. And if you could go back and tell yourself as a freshmen one word of advice, what would it be? Enjoy And did you have any regrets? Other than not meeting more people? Other than that, really not, I think I was one of those really fortunate kids in college that at the time there were some college colleagues who really weren't happy they were just marking their time ya know handing in their homework, their parents sent them here, they felt like they needed to get a degree and ya know they really were just marking time. But now I think I was one of those fortunate, probably the majority who said, 'you kidding? this is incredibly great, I've got a place to sleep every night, I've got great food, I've got a job, I've got lots of friends, I mean what could be better.' It was a great environment I would say 95% of the time. It felt like we were living the dream. And looking back is there anything you're happy has remained the same at Skidmore from then all the way until now? Since I'm not here day-to-day it's a little hard to say yes, for sure, but I get the same spirit of the college is really dedicated to the students and I think that's the primary way it should be. I'm a senior fellow at Penn, I'm the faculty there, I'm a faculty at Drexel College of Medicine and I've been to many institutions for the degrees as I've mentioned, so I've seen other colleges first hand and they don't all operate that way. So I'm really impressed that Skidmore, again, I think is really focused on the students and I think that it's primary mission and how it should be. What about the opposite, is there anything that you wish was not still around? No I don't think there's much I could add? So maybe to wrap up if there's just any last stories that you want to share about something that happened at Skidmore or something that happened downtown? Well you know, there were a lot of fun times that we put it in context because most of the students here were studying hard and doing �Hess 14 academically well but there's no question that we had a social life, um so I guess one of the funnier times I do remember was that when spring vacation would roll around, it was a big deal everybody wanted to take off and either go to Florida or go someplace else to get some sun, it's a pretty cold winter up here, lots of snow. So given that whole feverish environment you'd see on probably a barely 50 degree day with the sun out there would be girls in their bathing suits and guys in their bathing suits behind the dorm, I can't remember the name of the dorm, but trying to lay down on the ground so the wind wouldn't freeze them to death trying to get some base tan before they went to Florida. And then it was usually right before the spring break but it was also for the kids who couldn't afford to go on spring break or just couldn't logistically, we would have these unbelievable beach parties downtown. So the one I remember probably the best was at a bar that's not there anymore called Barclays, it was an old bank that's not a store downtown. And myself and some of the other employees there went out to the dump - the illustrious dump - and we got a bathtub and we found a plug at the hardware store, put it in the bathtub. And a lot of the places had a cover charge at the time and that night cover charge was you brought in liquor and we put in sour mix and some liquor but everybody who came into the door would poor their liquor into the bathtub and of course the concoction got more and more odd and more and more potent as the night wore on. So - and you had to come in beach attire - at the end of the night, it had a very high bar because it was the teller spots, and on top of that bar just spontaneously people put on of the bar stools and people eventually began climbing on top of the bar stool, standing on top of that so you were a good 15 to 20 feet and fortunately with the right crowd, and the right music, the DJ, the people were doing Acapulco bar diving where they would dive off the bar stool into the crowd - people knew you were coming - and people would hopefully catch you before you hit the ground. So it was just a hysterical, between the bathtub concoction and the Acapulco bar diving, it was just one of those parties you just shook your head at and said, you know this will just never be recreated. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sultan, Harry Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hess, Greg, '78 Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jordana Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 6/27/18 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Greg Hess, '78 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1-Jun-18 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sultan, Harry, 17 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English (eng,) Description An account of the resource Hess, a double major in chemistry and biology, and minor in business, describes how he came to take ballet classes and starting the Skidmore Hockey Club. He also worked as a ski instructor at West Mountain and Gore. Hess recalls that the letter of recommendation from his ballet instructor, former New York City Ballet prima ballerina Melissa Hayden, helped him get into medical school. Working in downtown Saratoga Springs as a bartender gave him a different perspective on his education. As one of the college's early male students, he understood his role was to help "create the co-educational environment and that included starting things like sports." For Hess, this was part of growing up in the 60s and 70s, with the influence of John F. Kennedy, the Vietnam War and 'making a difference.' Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio recording alumni ballet hockey team Melissa Hayden oral history sciences Skidmore College https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/92637a302d763b7aca4b34756fca4fb4.png b5c1ab1a581c3576b1cbdc4963900a41 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/de5dfa3e5054ca3d727696343078fc4c.mp3 49469dba0c1a4932facb2fef9a1febf2 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4f734966b92b1f0d61fad28ac159e5c4.pdf 56077aba05c538b94d503f382d438d1c https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/115566a603ddb65e7b7cc090ce97d2be.pdf 8e09d0a66766973b790704c32d9f6634 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sophia Spelman Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sophia Spelman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Herta Spencer Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY (via Zoom) & Saratoga Springs, NY (via Zoom) Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:09:54 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 13/11/2020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Herta Spencer Language A language of the resource English (en) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Herta Spencer Sophia Spelman Lois Celeste Nursing Home Staff Member Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sophia Spelman Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 27, 2020 Description An account of the resource This interview was conducted by a student in Skidmore College’s oral history class and is part of the Saratoga Senior Center project, “Preserving Our Past.” Herta Spencer—originally from Austria—has lived in New York City, New Jersey, Switzerland, Connecticut, and the Capital Region of New York State. In this interview she recounts fleeing Nazi-occupied Austria, attending college and medical school, and working as a psychiatrist during the mid-twentieth century. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Date Created Date of creation of the resource. November 29, 2020 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3483aa1f117d38860ebb86a6f5c4f66a.jpg f5adbca446787a3ed15b8272ba6b8a07 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/604e1885116f31fb2e9a87a60542b744.mp3 1958a2b04efeae44dbef3020170ff090 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Catalano, Deven Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hilary Ramirez Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Hillary Ramirez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/5/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Hilary speaks about what being a Dominican American, a black woman, and a Latinx woman means to her and the way her identities shape her experience. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. Hilary Ramirez is a Dominican American and was raised in the Bronx, New York in a community that included Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Black Americans and others. In our interview, Hilary speaks to the formation of her racial identity and the racial fault lines that she has encountered in her family and in Dominican Culture more broadly. She describes the comradery and community she grew up knowing in the Dominican Salons of the Bronx and a tells of a personal journey that led her to embrace her natural hair texture. Hilary also tells the story of her family’s migration to the United States and her father’s escape from the oppressive rule of Joaquin Balaguer. Hilary is a chemistry major at Skidmore College. Dominican Hair Culture Dominican Republic ethnicity family Gender identity Intersectionality Latinx oral history Phenotype race Skidmore College Skidmore student Women in Science https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/07655b20fcd8e0cdacb3d4ad6a1ad2d9.JPG e061271ff7375443e901dd14b6cb31f5 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/ef026eb3231c034cb45cc1e9dbe4d608.mp3 ef0736880c35915fc757c8a9e3cc8cd3 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e26fbe2964fb4be5bfeea4a9ebc17b82.pdf 6b03b55565690103c7a475dac1336c38 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0557869fec770b39545b9417a7312ef5.pdf 2de12e81e5d8009e6c795e0aef8ec58b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Isabelle Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 3, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Isabelle Williams arrived at Skidmore in 1972 and contributed to every corner of the campus over the next twenty-one years. Educator, pianist, administrator. Dr. Williams consistently demonstrated her deep dedication to the life of the mind and the beauty of artistic expression. In this interview, she describes the transformation of the Music Department’s curriculum, the Ladd family’s support of music programming, and her contributions to the initiation of Skidmore’s “new” Liberal Studies curriculum in 1982. Along the way, she provides the listener with a lively sense of campus culture during the years of her tenure. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Abstract A summary of the resource. Interview with Isabelle Williams by Susan Kress, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 3, 2017. Date Created Date of creation of the resource. November 23, 2020 Campus Culture Filene Foundation International Students Liberal Studies Music Department Palamountain UWW https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/74b9baeccc5e0fd9426516fa3c5d44be.jpg c46c38cc106a037a6b33dfcffd42e8b8 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/96f76eaa5d4f1d8846cd96582ada1323.m4a 521c96a16d0d85f70c5cf6a8a2c84e2e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/02fac18fad0022bf75f2c5cd7f205938.pdf eba65f8d0bd8f749c309fa1529ea60b7 PDF Text Text 1 Title Jacob DeLeon Navarrete Interview Date June 2nd, 2018 Language Eng Interviewer Emily Rizzo Location Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format Audio Recording Duration 39:13 Tags Alumni , Oral history , Skidmore College , Tour guide , Admissions �2 ER: So, you can you say your full name and your graduating year and your major or minors? JV: Sure, my name is Jacob DeLeon Navarrete. I graduated in 2008. I was a double major in psychology and history. I focused on existential psychology with Sheldon Solomon and I worked with Jennifer Delton in American History, mostly focusing on the civil rights era all the way back to colonial period. ER: Wow that's amazing. And where are you from? JV: Dallas, Texas. ER: Dallas, Texas. Wow I always wanted to take an existential psychology class with Sheldon and I never got to fit it in. JV: Yeah, he's... I got really lucky because he was my advisor when I first started as a student. So I took LS1 with him, I don't know if you guys still do LS1 or not, but he was my LS1 teacher and I really just connected with him. At the time I wasn't going to be a psychology major. I had come in interested in doing pre-med but quickly learned that other peoples' blood freaks me out so being a doctor was not necessarily the best path for me. And I had always been very interested in human behavior and what drives human choices and an intersection of psychology and philosophy seemed really cool and anyone who’s ever seen Sheldon Solomon knows that he’s a captivating person. So it was kind of hard to not have chosen that. When I think about the person that I was coming to college and then having the opportunity to engage with such interesting minds, I was very influenced by those elements more so than a real passion for the subject matter, that grew as I began to dig deeper into the actual academic component of it. ER: Wow that's really great. I guess since we already started talking about it... Can you talk about what it was like being head tour guide? �3 JV: Oh. So I... When I got to Skidmore I really didn't know what to do. Being from Texas, not knowing anyone here, I tried very hard to make sense of the community and that meant I did a lot of activities I tried to learn where buildings were, and I saw an opportunity to be a tour guide. They made the first option available to first year students in second semester. So I applied for it and I was really excited about it. I was hired as a tour guide and there was something about being able to share my passion for Skidmore that I really enjoyed. And so, I was a tour guide pretty much in the earliest moment possible. And because I was from far away I spent some summers on campus and I was a summer tour guide. And by the time I was a Junior I had been hired as one of the co-head tour guides. And I spent my junior and my senior year running the tour guide program. It was really interesting to see that element of higher education because it wasn't about me. It was about these other people. And I think a lot of students view tour guiding as a job. And it is, it's a great way to make some extra cash, have an opportunity to pick up a couple skills if you haven't already. But very few people I think approach it as community service. And that's kind of how I approached it. Don't get me wrong, enjoyed the pay check, very much appreciated the work. But I loved it because I was giving students the opportunity to see the institution the way that I did. And I knew it wasn't going to be right for every student, but the student who it was right for, they would fall in love. And it was also really cool to see students come in as first year students, during my third or fourth year, who I had given a tour to and who really responded to the way Skidmore was presented to them. So, it was a lot of fun and I really enjoyed being able to share my experience in the community with people who probably would have never thought to ask me about Skidmore because I don't think I represent the average Skidmore student, particularly not in 2000. ER: Wow I have so many questions. So, you loved Skidmore a lot? JV: Oh yeah, I was a student senator right out of the gate, they always have the three spots, at least my time it was three spots, available for freshman students. So I ran. The funny thing was only three of us ran and I had the lowest number of votes. It was really interesting. �4 ER: Yeah. JV: But I got really involved with student senate. I was the very last coordinator of diversity affairs before there was a vice president of diversity affairs, that was the person who followed me. But I eventually realized that student government was not what was right for me. And that's when I shifted from having my hands in a bunch of things to focusing on working in the admissions office and as I got older I just spent less time doing things that were for the sake of doing it and more time focused on the things I was really interested in. And student government was fun, but I think it's best done by the people who want to devote energy in ways that I don't think I have the patience for, in a certain sense. But tour guiding is... the patience that you have to have is a very different kind of patience. ER: What do you mean by that? JV: So the patience you have to have for student government I would say is the same for politics. ER: Yeah. JV: You have to suffer everyone. No one is wrong. Everyone's opinion and perspective is important because you're representing everyone. And so, student government being representative of government, you have to listen you have to take into consideration things that you don't believe, people that you don't agree with. And that's great that we have individuals that are willing to put themselves through that. I think the saying is, "People who are willing to suffer fools." As a tour guide, you suffer fools in a completely different way. Your goal is to help people see what you see. And for a lot of tour guides, they just lie. I'm not saying that happens at Skidmore per say, but just in general you go to a museum they're going to spin the best story possible. But you don't have to. A really good tour guide doesn't lie. They find ways to respond to your question in truth, but hopefully, if they're perceptive enough, they �5 know what you're really asking and can come around to address how the school handles that issue. When parents ask questions about drinking, what they're really asking about is safety. No parent thinks that kids don't drink in college. It happens. It's just what happens in the United States. So, the real question is, "Is my child going to be safe while they're participating in activities? Are they going to feel like they're forced to participate in activities? So a tour guide who isn't thinking that far ahead will say, "There's no parties." Or, "Nothing is under age." Or, "People get in trouble." But that's not true. A smart tour guide would respond that Skidmore is the type of place where students can make whatever choices that they feel comfortable making, that Skidmore provides a really safe environment to do so, there are tremendous amounts of opportunities for students who don't want drugs or alcohol, all sorts of programming... That's how you respond to that question. You don't say people don't party. You don't say everyone parties. Or whatever the easiest answer is. And that's just one example of why I think I was much more interested in being a tour guide than being in student government. ER: Yeah definitely. Yeah, I think tour guides sell Skidmore as more diverse than it actually is. Because Skidmore includes in its numbers, in its percentages, international students, everyone who's international is counted in the diversity percentage, which doesn't make sense because not everyone who's in the international percentage... some of them are white and they're thrown into that percentage to make it seem more inclusive than it is. So it's like, "Are you lying? Are you giving that percentage?" But I think some tour guides try to give that number and pretend... or try to tell this lie. JV: I think that's also a reflection of the difference between the institution internally and the institution externally. So, I ended up being an admissions officer here for three and a half years. So I was a tour guide and then got hired as an admissions officer. And I think when institutions utilize percentages to craft a certain narrative, it's usually a reflection of the industry more than an individual office. It's very common for schools to include international students in their diversity numbers because colleges try to have the most broad definition of diversity. And that �6 can be problematic sometimes when people are really asking, "How many white people are here?" Right? And I think it's fair to ask that question, versus how diverse are you? Because diversity is a cop out word. Right? You can have diversity with a bunch of white men. There can be a lot of diversity in the way you think, how you see the world, right? So including international students in the diversity number makes sense if what you're saying is, we have a lot of different people from different experiences and walks of life. But we also know that that's not what people are really asking when they say diversity. And so that's the internal versus external tension. It's the same thing that when we use graduation rates. We say it out of six years but it's really out of four. But four isn't as nice so everyone does it out of six. ER: What's the out of six? JV: So most four-year graduation rates are actually out of six years. ER: Oh oh. JV: Yeah. But they factor in taking breaks, going abroad, switching your major. ER: That's okay. JV: Right but people think it's the four-year rate. ER: Yeah. JV: And it's not the four-year rate it's the six-year rate. That's what the government does for a degree. So being an admission officer gave me the opportunity to learn a lot about how colleges function as institutions relative to how they function for students. And it gave me a really good view into how a class is made. And I think a lot of students have a completely misguided notion as to how they got into college. I think if you were to ask the average �7 Skidmore student, "How'd you get into college?" "Oh yeah I worked hard. I did well in school." It's like, "No that's not why you got into Skidmore. It isn't. You fit exactly what the institution was looking for at that year." And at a place now where they're taking 25% of the students who apply, it's even more so, "We need this particular subset of people to have the class that we're looking for." You didn't get in, it's more of a reflection, not of your ability or not of your strengths, it's, "You just didn't have what we were looking for this year. If you apply next year, you might get in. If you applied the year before, you might get in. It's just this year. There were a lot of girls with brown hair and blue eyes who played soccer and were violinists. Sorry." That's the flip side of access. Everybody's going to apply. That's what makes it much harder to get in. Admissions officers are humans. They're not machines. Some students are just going to stand out to them. So, it was an interesting experience to learn. It helped me better contextualize myself instead of thinking, "Oh I have this because..." I could step back and say, "Well, there are probably plenty of other people who were just as good or whatever the reason." I'm a college counselor now, among other things, and so having that knowledge in the back of my head really helps when I talk with students who don't get into their schools of choice. It's not a reflection of you, it's a reflection of the school. ER: Yeah so, I wanted to ask, that's actually a good leeway, what are you doing now? JV: So right now, I am the associate head of upper school at the Auckland School in Dallas Texas. It's a Montessori and international baccalaureate school, educating students from 18 months to 18 years. And we actually just had our first graduating seniors. So the schools been around for over 50 years but had stopped at 6th grade for a long time and stopped at 8th grade about 15 years ago. That's when they opened the middle school and so we opened the upper school four years ago. And so I handle all the college counseling, student life, and now as the associate head, pretty much everything. I'm just very deeply involved with what goes on. And I feel very happy to say that I had a student who was accepted to Skidmore. She didn't choose to attend but it was nice to have that be one of our first seniors apply and then be admitted to Skidmore. So that's what I do. �8 ER: Wow that's amazing. Yeah it feels like, from what you've said, everything that you've done at Skidmore helped you get to... JV: Where I am? ER: And then your admissions position at Skidmore and now you're really a... leadership role... JV: There's no doubt that my time at Skidmore was fundamental for who I am as a person. I just finished my masters degree at Stanford and the most interesting element of that was how often my undergraduate experience was really useful. And I think that my belief in creative thought mattering has really been an important perspective when dealing with problem solving, dealing with people. Just remembering that you have to be creative. And usually when you remember to be creative it reminds you to be patient. And that has been really valuable for me as a person. Skidmore has really been critical to the person that I am. I wouldn't say that it defines me, but I also can't think of myself without it. So I wouldn't be surprised if I find myself with a job here again as my last job or something. Like I really did love my time here and I love what they do for students. And that's why I do what I do, because I had a great college experience and I want that for every other person. I want every human to have the time of undergraduate experience that I did. Because if you had asked me at 17 if I'd be doing what I'm doing now... No, not at all. A 17-year-old Jacob would look at 32 year old Jacob and say, "What are you doing with yourself? Working at a high school? With teenagers?" But 32-year-old Jacob can look back at 17 year old Jacob and say "You just don't know enough about life. You don't know enough about you yet." And my time at Skidmore helped me learn so much about myself. Because there's something about the community and the campus that encourages you to explore internally and externally. ER: Something about the campus? �9 JV: I think that the combination of the campus layout, all the trees, the green spaces, the Northwoods, the general approach to student development and student learning, mixed with... at least this was my time, I can't speak for Skidmore today but... When I was a student there was some sort of open mindedness, of not necessarily non-judgmental, but much more flexible with what you chose to do. A certain unspoken encouragement to figure out what you wanted to do and to be okay with that. I will also admit that in 2004, the entering class, the standards shifted dramatically from the class of 2005. Just from an admissions stand point., the selectivity was dramatically different. So a lot of us that graduated in 2008, we feel like we're the last class of the old Skidmore, before Skidmore became a place where everybody wanted to go, and no one got in. I think my freshman year, our acceptance rate was something like 40% and now it's like 20%, in ten years, 15 years. That's a really big difference and that says a lot about the type of student that goes here. And I don’t think that that shift, I hope not, has not impacted that desire, that curiosity, that openness to explore yourself, to figure things out. The number of people I saw who came in Skidmore one way and left Skidmore a very different way, but so authentically... I don't know if that was just the common college growth that happens everywhere... I don't think so. I think what happens here is very special. And places like Skidmore... I don't think Skidmore is the only place on the planet that does it. I think there's something about a liberal arts college on a beautiful campus with faculty who really want to engage in the learning and development of students. That produces something special. But I think you add that to Skidmore's history as an all-women’s institution, Skidmore's history as an art school, Skidmore's history as an institution believing in creative thought. I think all of that together allows for that internal exploration, almost a permission to explore yourself. And then externally I think that marketing itself to students who are looking for something different it does produce more opportunity to dig. And maybe not be so afraid about it. Because I feel like a lot of students at giant universities, they kind of wake up and realize they’re not the person they want to be. I’m not saying that doesn't happen at Skidmore, but for the kids that that does happen here, there's more opportunity for you to be like “Oh okay I’m going to find some new people.” I just don’t know if that happens in schools that are more anonymous. �10 ER: I think it's been changing, a lot of people have been coming for the business department. JV: It's very famous. ER: Yeah and I don’t know if it was the same when you were here...? JV: It was just starting. Because I think also... I think a big factor was Fall 2008, the economy crashing, Leeman Brothers, all of that., changes the world. when I was a senior in college you didn’t have to have a job, you didn’t have to know what you were doing. I had a summer job. I fell into the admissions office. That was normal 10 years ago. Now, if you don’t have everything lined up in January you're completely screwed. So I also think the changes in the students coming to Skidmore is a reflection of both how strong the business department actually is but also because you can do business here and art and it’s not going to pull you one way or the other. A lot of other schools that have a business school or business program the other things are secondary, they just are, but here it’s not. And so I do think that that’s probably part of why that shift has been happening but hasn’t completely over thrown the college. Because I think in the world we live in today, it could be even more of a business orientation. But I think it’s the strength in music, the strength in visual art, the strength in dance, the strength in the social sciences, the strength in the foreign languages, the strength in English. There's so many quality nonprofessional programs here, and I mean that in relation to professional degrees like an MBA or a Doctor of Social Work or a doctor of exercise. that’s what I mean by professional as opposed to the more general term, allows for that dichotomy and the slowing down of the change, because you do see a lot of liberal arts colleges, there’s a big shift. you see a lot of liberal arts colleges just get eaten up bigger universities because people don’t see the value anymore because people don’t see the value anymore. ER: Yeah, I hope that it doesn't change, I'm worried. JV: It's fair to be worried I think. �11 ER: Is there any memory that has come up as you've been here? JV: I mean that was the crazy part. Myself and a friend who came up, when we first got to campus we just walked around. And that’s what happened for 45 minutes, just like "Oh my god this" and "Oh my god that." And I think a lot of stuff occurred, a lot of memories, a lot of crazy memories, but I think the one that probably shocked me the most was., or surprised me by how overwhelming it was, was actually something that I didn’t even remember until I was reliving the experience. So as a psychology and history major almost all my classes were in Tisch (Learning Center). I was a Tisch kid. I was always in Tisch. I called it the “ology building” when I was a tour guide, even though history isn’t an ology, and I would literally say that, "although history isn't an ology." There is the walkway out of Tisch leading to Palamountain (Hall) where the early childhood center is, right there’s that L covered walkway and all the honey suckle. The smell of the honey suckle got me. Because I forgot how much that smell was constant, how strong that smell is, and how often I smelled it. In context to walking from one building to the other. I was frozen when the smell hit my nostrils and all of these memories just washed over very quickly. Particularly I used to do observation in the early childhood center. I was a sophomore and I was taking a child development class. Because at the time I thought I was going to be more focused on childhood development but not at all, I ended up not doing that at all. But that was a really interesting semester for me because I had never engaged with children, and so the combination of the smells and just how much that time influenced me, one way or the other. So I think that was probably the biggest memory. It was also just to go walk around and see which professors were still here and which ones are not still here. It was also nice to see there was more diversity in the faculty, I can tell there’s not much now. but when I was here there was none. I didn't have a single male of color teach me at Skidmore. Maybe I had one female of color teach me. I knew there was a male psychology professor, Hassan Lopez, who I didn’t have until my final year. He was actually the first male of color that I had I’m pretty sure. I could be wrong about that, but it was so few that... but then looking around and seeing that there were a handful more teachers of color, said something. now, I’ll be honest, two percent of the population has a PhD. so were already looking at a very small section of �12 people. when you look at the cross section of education, there just aren’t that many PhDs that are black, or Mexican, or anything that isn’t white. so that’s not necessarily a reflection of Skidmore, but Skidmore could work harder at really finding diverse faculty if they wanted to. so, there’s always a tension one way or the other. But it was nice to see new faces, it was nice to see new scholarship from people who are not the standard professorial type. that was really cool to see. ER: Yeah Skidmore needs to work on its retention. JV: Yeah it does. ER: What else would you like to see improve at Skidmore? JV: I love this place. I just want to see Skidmore not be so slow about what it does. I loved seeing the signs on campus letting visitors know, this is renewable, or this is sustainable, or we have this goal. I saw the goal of 25% food sustainability by 2025. why isn’t it 50%? why isn’t it 75%? obviously that’s ambitious and it would require a lot of thoughtful changes, but Skidmore is the type of place in my opinion where there are so many creative people here that there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be pushing themselves harder. I would love to see the administration push back on some of the faculty who are not as tolerant as they think they are. that’s one thing that I do know is true. I have kept enough in touch that there have been some issues in town with students of color and I was very disappointed in how the administration responded to that. I was very disappointed to see that there was not a 100% defense of the students. Period. The students were students. Even if they were wrong which they weren’t. but even if they were wrong, I feel like if they were rich white students, it would have been a whole different response. and I don’t think that anyone made that decision deliberately, but that’s what bias is. you don’t see that you would treat someone else differently because of some immutable factor. If they were rich white kids, "Oh we have to be careful about the parents. the politics involved...". well why isn’t that same consideration given to a poor brown or black kid? �13 they have just as much value as a person right? and again I’m not saying that this is Skidmore only, this is the world we live in, but I think Skidmore could do a better job. particularly since they have a commitment at least in words, to bring in diversity, to bring in a variety of people. like I loved seeing that the opportunity program is now one big unit. Because when I was a student it was HEOP and AOP, no one really knew what AOP was, all the HEOP kids were clumped together because they were from New York City. And it was nice that they were on campus, but they were completely ostracized from everyone else. No one intended to do that but that’s what it was. And so as a student of color who was in neither program, it was weird. So now to see that all the opportunity programs are all together, there’s a whole place for them. That just made me feel like okay this is the kind of action that I want to see. Why did it take so long? I was sad to see that some of the administrators who have left, why they’ve left… That made me kind of sad. But I think it is important to remind the Skidmore community that you can’t rest on your laurels. That just because you are better in a lot of ways than other institutions that doesn’t mean that you get to slow down, that doesn’t mean you get to set targets that everyone else should set. That I’m disappointed by. But not disappointed enough to not care, but just be like, “Hey.” Like you know when you get disappointed in your friends who don’t live up to their potential? That's kind of how I feel sometimes. That we could be pushing ourselves more. We could be doing more. We could be having more courageous conversations with ourselves, with each other, around these sensitive issues. Like it was great to see a Black Lives Matter thing in Case Center. That’s great. But do the Black lives here actually feel like they matter? Because there was a time when I was a student where a lot of black lives didn't feel like they mattered as much. I never really felt that. But just because I don’t doesn’t mean it’s not true for other people. So that’s why I would say I would want to push Skidmore, particularly in a place like Saratoga Springs that's very different than the people who come to school here. We could be fostering more education, more awareness. I don’t mean tolerance in the sense of just accepting. But I really mean like, “You have wrong beliefs because you’re not educated in the right things so let’s provide you more education.” Let’s give you more opportunities to step outside your comfort zone. Because people believe things �14 because they don’t have anything else to counter that belief. They have no experience, no exposure. There is so much here that could make Saratoga better and they don’t do enough. ER: We really don’t engage in Saratoga. JV: And I will admit, I know enough to know that the town doesn’t really want them to. But that doesn’t mean you accept it. That doesn’t mean you say, "Okay you don't want us then fine." There are enough educated, thoughtful, powerful, rich people in this community, Skidmore's community. They could be on seats in the board in town. They could be actively engaged in changing Saratoga. But they don’t want to. So that’s what I mean by pushing more. ER: And it's even true for pushing faculty more. Faculty and staff showed up though... JV: That must mean they want to try. I feel like, the one thing that I want younger people like you to hear, because I was where you were at some point, I'm on my way to that other point, young people are impatient, you are. Because for you, you see the way... It’s like "This is how it should be! Why is it not?" And that's great, never lose that. But just remember that as you get older, you begin to understand why things are older, that doesn’t just defy it. But I guess try to find the wins. Because the story you just said, makes me think, "Okay, at least the staff want to engage." Maybe enough kids didn't come, but the fact that there were a lot of staff members who came, that says that there's a willingness to have the conversation and that’s huge. And my fear is that young people, the younger people, haven’t lived enough to recognize, haven't lived enough to recognize how much it is to get someone to come to the table. And that open mindedness is a lot more difficult than you think. I have found a lot of progressives and liberals are some of the most closeminded people I’ve ever met because they think they’re right. And I’ll admit I use to be like that when i was young, I was like, " I’m right. Why would I be openminded? I’m open-minded because I’m right!" Actually, if you think that you're right, you’re not open-minded. So let’s talk about... Do we really want open-minded-ness? Is it actually a good thing? Or do we want closemindedness that’s correct? I don’t know I’m just saying that it’s important that young people just recognize that experience does dictate how you see the �15 world. And even in my own job, I had seven things I wanted to do this year, I got three of them done and I learned, I was like, "You know what? I’m going to be proud of those three things because everybody else is super proud of them. I’m the only one that’s mad that I didn’t get to do all seven. And my boss was like, "Jacob, we only have room as people, for three things a year. You want to do more than 3 things? take away something," just, that’s something that I’ve had to learn and grow with. But don’t ever lose the passion. just, almost forgive yourself as you move through it. Because you’re going to get a point where you’re going to be 30 and you’re going to realize, "Oh there's so much more." And that’s not to excuse slowness, that’s not to excuse behavior, but I think it does help from becoming a state of despair. I feel like a lot of young people after the election were in a state of despair. And rightfully so it was a despairing moment for a lot of people. But it’s been almost two years now. were in the second year, right? were still here, were alive, people are fighting. it’s an awareness now and that’s valuable. That’s more valuable than if she had won and people didn’t know that they lived in the world they live in. And so being able to have this dialogue about Skidmore, if nothing else, the people who are interested in making change at Skidmore listen to all the different people have all these different opinions and stories and histories about Skidmore, if you really want to make it a better place, listen to what people have said. Don’t just take what they’re saying as truth, but listen to the whole thing. What’s the points that seem to be sticking out? And how does that relate to what the students right now are saying? What’s the parallel? What’s the dissonance? It’s hard to be a leader. It’s easy to want to lead. It’s very hard to actually lead. But I’m excited to see how Skidmore plays out over the next 10 years, see what kinds of students come here, what changes happen, what changes don’t happen. Because there’s some things what just shouldn’t change, but it shouldn’t not change simply because they don't want it to. There should be a reason that it stays the same. If you can’t come up with that reason, then it’s got to change. And I think any alum would be okay with it changing for the right reason. So I’m excited to see how it all plays out. ER: I’m excited to see what you do. �16 JV: Oh well thank you. That's very nice. ER: Thank you so much. JV: My pleasure. ER: This was really great. JV: Absolutely. I enjoyed it. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Navarrete, Jacob Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jordana Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 6/27/18 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 39:13:00 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1-Jun-18 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rizzo, Emily, 18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Audio, Photo Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Description An account of the resource Navarrete, '08, from Dallas, Texas, graduated with a double major in psychology and history, focusing on existential psychology with Sheldon Solomon and American History with Jennifer Delton. He started working with Prof. Solomon in LS1 (Liberal Studies 1, an interdisciplinary course formerly required of all students), and soon began work as a tour guide. Eventually running the tour guide program, Navarrete both made connections on campus and was able to share his passion for the college. He joined SGA as a student senator in his first year, and was the last coordinator of diversity affairs, before the position became a Vice President of diversity affairs. After graduating from college, he worked in admissions and learned about how classes are shaped and chosen, and is current the associate head of upper school at the Auckland School, a Montessori school, in Dallas Texas. He recently finished a master's degree at Stanford University. He particularly values what he felt was a non-judgmental atmosphere with "unspoken encouragement" to experiment, have curiosity, 'explore yourself, to figure things out." He noted a shift in recruitment between 2004 and 2005, with Skidmore becoming increasingly selective, and wonders how classes following his fare that way. Back on campus, the smell of honeysuckle outside Tisch Learning Center, brought back memories of observation in the Early Childhood Center next door in Palamountain Hall. He welcomed increasing diversity on the faculty, as he had taken no classes from a male of color and only one female of color as professors. He would like to see more, faster, change on diversity, and welcomes the combination of the AOP and HEOP (opportunity programs) on campus. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jacob Navarrete, '08 admissions alumni Diversity Latinx Opportunity Program oral history Skidmore College tour guide https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f480b432a2e7755e5eb52c6ecade35e3.JPG 0f48c99a7e93aab08da612a3c7318c02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jill Sweet https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/daae08e853c7c82f60d1ebe6826bc377.mp3 e77f5799a74c911641a05e58925733ba https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8816786fbed07a6c196de2e0c5526a7a.pdf f1e4adfcc6572c8aee49fd71b48303b9 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/56a45e72ead5e9935b3ed423fd9bc819.pdf 897bf929f52f1de1cf16a4787c6b7cc7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Eileen McAdam Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jill Sweet Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit December 13, 2018 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jill Sweet Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 13, 2013 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Jill Sweet intended to be a dancer, but her work with native Americans to learn about their dance turned into an interest in cultural anthropology which she studied at the University of New New Mexico before coming to Skidmore in 1981.  In this interview she discusses the inspiration she found with a department that mixed the theoretical courses in sociology and anthropology with archeology and social work where theory was put into practice.  She also discusses interviewing skills learned from her time with the Pueblo Indians which she passed on to students using role play, a skill she learned through her actress mother.  She recounts her development of Native American Week on campus and the Tang exhibit of Edward Curtis photos from the Scribner Library collection that inspired creations by living native Americans.  During President Porter’s tenure, she experienced a growing demand for academic excellence, efforts at student diversity, and attempts to recruit native American students.  She also discusses her friendship with Helen Porter and faculty-staff relations which she learned of through her marriage to Steven Rosenbach, a member of the Skidmore security staff.  As a person with MS she comments on campus accessibility.  Since her retirement in 2010, she has written a book about her bohemian mother, “Life as a Tarantella,” and articles written originally for a local paper published now as a book, “Whiskers and Tails,”  as well as articles and newsletters for Friends of the Saratoga County Animal Shelter.  Language A language of the resource English (en) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dym, Jordana, Stern, Rebecca, '16 Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Eileen McAdam Date Available Date (often a range) that the resource became or will become available. January 20, 2015 Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Anthropology Department Biology Department Creative Thought Matters David Porter Edward Curtis faculty relations Helen Porter Joseph Palamountain Skidmore faculty Susan Bender Tang Museum https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9d420b4dcaa7c3dd8f96118bd086b78d.jpg 3df6168ed0373f4bc3d2b7734c5807a0 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0786b819f73339e817b7dde3a4bbdda4.m4a c3cd1975640b9f3979e3e6e6100ddd45 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b9e8bdfcdb68a64e2114b67412ee0f53.pdf 1e9a931e74ef3e0e74ebb159bf83edb8 PDF Text Text Interview with Joan Berenguer by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, August 13, 2024. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber. I'm here today with Joan Berenguer, from the early days of Skidmore. It's the 29th of June,, 2025, and we're with Susan BenderSUSAN BENDER: "Recording for." LG: ... recording for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project. Well, Joan, it's really nice to see you. And I want to start by asking where you grew up and if you could describe your childhood, briefly. JOAN BERENGUER: Okay. It's great to be here and thank you for inviting me to participate in this program. I'm delighted to be a part of it. So, I was born in Southern California, and grew up... My elementary school years were in the Santa Monica area of Southern California. And then when I was 11, we moved to the Bay Area in Northern California and I went to both middle school and high school in the Bay Area. And then I went off to college, to Ohio, to Antioch College. And then I went to Granada for a program abroad and I met my husband. And then we moved to Paris and lived there for seven years. Both of my daughters were born in Paris. And then we moved back to New York in 1974 because my husband was given a post at SUNY Albany. And that was the year that I saw the advertisement for a post that was available at the language department at Skidmore, and that's when I applied for the department post. And started working in 1974, no, 1975, as a language instructor at theLG: In Spanish? JB: In Spanish. Well, actually, I was hired for Spanish and French, but I only taught Spanish. Do I continue on for that in terms of dates? So, I was an instructor in the language department from '75 to '77, and then I was hired in '78... I'm sorry, from '74 to '78. And then I was hired as an academic advisor for the school year of '78/'79. We moved to Barcelona in '79. And then thanks to Lynne Gelber, chair of the department, who asked me if I would be interested in setting up a (Junior Year Abroad) program for Skidmore... at that point, my husband and I and my family were living in Barcelona, setting up a program for Tufts starting in '80, 1980. So, we ran the program for Skidmore, in conjunction with the program we were running for Tufts University, from 1980 to 1985, and then we moved to Madrid in 1985 and ran the program both in Madrid and in Alcalá de Henares until my retirement in 2009. LG: Now, did you have a position also at the University Without Walls? JB: I did. I didn't mention that? I'm sorry. In 1978, '79, before we moved to Spain, I worked as an Academic Advisor in the University Without Walls. Page 1 of 12 �LG: And what did you do? JB: So, I worked with the students who were doing their individual projects and helping them organize the academic aspects of the development of their projects. Because it's a very independent program and they're not on campus. They're not taking, necessarily, courses, but their doing a lot of independent work within their different degree requirements. It was a very interesting job. LG: Any outstanding students or projects that you can recall? JB: I'm sorry, I don't remember. LG: Okay. JB: It was only one year. And everything seemed very interesting to me, but I can't remember any specific projects. LG: Do you remember what courses you were teaching in Spanish? JB: Yes. I was teaching Spanish 3 and 4, and I was teaching Phonetics. Which, that was, for me, my most interesting course. I was teaching Phonetics and it was something that I found extremely useful because I saw that it could be helpful for students who were sincerely interested in improving their phonetic performance in learning Spanish with understanding how those sounds are produced in your mouth. It was incredible, the improvement that people could make. And so it was an interesting scientific course because of the way they found out about how sounds are produced in your mouth, but it's also had great practical results for these students because they were delighted to all of a sudden hear themselves speaking a more phonetically correct Spanish. So that was a very fun course. LG: So, why don't you talk a little bit about the program in Spain? JB: So, as I mentioned before, we developed the program originally in Barcelona. So, I'm talking now about the Skidmore College Junior Year Abroad Program in Spain, which started in Barcelona in 1980. That was our very first year. We started working on its creation the year before. And we set up the program with what they call the Central University of Barcelona, La Universidad Central de Barcelona, which was in the downtown area of the city. And I taught a class and my husband taught a class for the Skidmore and Tufts University students, which we were running in conjunction, the two programs, at the university itself. We were given classroom space at the university. Then we had space, an apartment that we rented, we had space to use for the program where we had some of our special events, lectures, recitals, special projects, at the office. And that's where we had our administrative offices and ran the program. LG: Joan, what kind of special programs? What kind of recitals? Page 2 of 12 �JB: Well, we had Flamenco, and we had some of the singer/songwriters in those days, which were very important because of their political implications. They'd been important during the end of the Franco dictatorship and continued to be very popular. And some of them were our friends and we had them give recitals to the students. And of course there was the interest both in the music and also the political message that was coming through thoseLG: Did the students get involved? JB: Oh, absolutely. They were fascinated. And part of the program was, the philosophy of our program was also to get students as integrated as possible in the culture. So there were two special courses. My husband's, Angel’s, course in culture, and my course in language, to help them with things that they wouldn't find at the university. But then they all took two or three other courses at the university itself that were regular courses where they sat with the Spanish students and did the same work the Spanish students did and got their grades from the Spanish professors. Which we felt was very important for them to be part of a real institution, to not have something just prepared for them on an American type university. And so they did the university, they lived individually with Spanish families, with families in Barcelona. And cultural activities were actually part of their Culture course with my husband, Angel, where they could choose several different types of activities but they all had to do some kind of cultural activity, which could include going to Spanish movies, seeing Spanish plays, going to Spanish music recitals or concerts, going to art exhibits. Just generally being involved in Spanish culture for the same reason, that they could become part of regular Spanish life, and not a tourist, and not a separate American kind of in-house situation. This was something we always believed in very strongly, and we saw how effective it could be with the students in terms of their outcomes. LG: So, why did you have to move to Madrid? JB: So, this is one of the very big challenges that we encountered. When we first moved to Barcelona, there was some movement toward nationalistic Catalans recovering their culture because they felt that they had been very oppressed during the Franco period with the dictatorship. They couldn't use their language at school. I mean, there were lots of things that we absolutely agreed with. But it went very far for our objectives with our students because starting maybe the third year... We spent five years there. About the third year, we saw we were losing the number of the most popular courses that students would sign up for at the university itself (because they) were just being offered in Catalan. So we had the problem with the course offerings at the university that our students could take, but as well as thatLG: Catalan as opposed to? JB: Right. The Catalan language is a separate romance language. It's as separate from Spanish as Page 3 of 12 �French or Portuguese or Italian. So it's not mutually comprehensible. And none of our students were specializing in Catalan so it was not a useful... We couldn't expect students to be able to take a course in Catalan. So we had the problem at the university. We also had a problem at all of these cultural activities we wanted them to be involved in because, especially the theater, was being offered almost exclusively in Catalan. But even the art exhibits would have the information only in Catalan because they were trying to promote their language with such rigor that they were blocking out Spanish. And so even on a social level... All of our families, of course, knew that they had to speak Spanish with our students, but sometimes there was families that mostly spoke Catalan and that was a division for our students to integrate into the families because they would be speaking a language they didn't understand, and that could create also misunderstandings. And on a social level, our students had a hard time making friends because a lot of the students at the university didn't want to speak Spanish. They were using the Catalan language. And so interestingly enough, our students, instead of having friends in the university, they usually had friends that were immigrants from other parts of Spain that didn't speak Catalan either. Taxi drivers, or waiters in the restaurants, or people that they met in other occasions, but they weren't having that very rich experience with their peers of being able to develop a lot of friendships. So it was clear, I would say about the third year in our development, that we were going to have to make a move. So in the fourth year, we started seriously looking at all the other options in Spain. And after checking out several universities, there were lots of fine places to go, but the best place for us, without a doubt, after checking it out and doing a lot of research, was Madrid because Madrid has very good universities but it also offers so much of everything else. Because our students weren't always Spanish majors. Some of them were Spanish majors and some of them were Spanish minors, or some were double majors, but there were many other majors that came on the program. LG: Like what? Like art history? JB: Art history. There were poly sci, there were business. We had lots of business. There were lots of other interests. Psychology. We had lots of different... hm? LG: Dance? JB: Oh, and dance. Right. Dance, right. So we had a variety of majors that you wanted to be able... One of the philosophies of our program was that students get involved in the culture through their interests and continue on with their interests. And they did internships, that was something we had started in Barcelona and we greatly expanded in Madrid because they could find internships in their different areas of interest either for hobbies’ sake or for majors in terms of the kinds ofLG: So what kind of internships? JB: So, we had internships in schools where they helped with English teaching. We did Page 4 of 12 �internships in different types of NGOs where they were working with social services. We had internships with refugees with, I think it was like a UN agency of refugee aid where our students were helping to do research about the different countries where refugee applicants were coming from to help the lawyers prepare their cases with the refugees. And we had some students interested in business working with financial institutions. I'm trying to remember, there was another one. It was also an NGO that was very popular. A lot of the social services where they were working with children in some cases. That's all that comes to mind. There were a lot of different options. There was a student who did an internship in movie making and found a place that did films where she could develop her interest in movie making. So there was a whole lot of variety. And we encouraged students, if we couldn't find something exactly that fit the bill, that they could also look into opportunities. LG: So, what were the highlights for you? JB: Beyond a doubt, the biggest highlight for me... Because I loved this job. For me, it was a dream job. I used to tell everybody that. But I think the most wonderful thing about it was witnessing the kind of growth leaps that all students experienced and achieved in many different areas, including intellectual growth, academic growth, cultural perspectives, adaptability, social development. Of course language development was fundamental. But there were all sorts of different ways in which students were able to take advantage of these opportunities in their own individual experiences, and they all made huge leaps in those growth opportunities. After having taught at Skidmore, I saw it much more because it was more of a kind of complete experience that they were having, and you could see these growth developments. A 20-year-old American, in some cases, it was the first time they had ever gotten on an airplane, in those days. It was their first time out of the country. Living in a city, learning to deal with urban culture and urban logistics. Using a subway. All of these were very important experiences for them in all sorts of different ways. And that, for me, was not just fascinating but it was heartwarming to see how these students were meeting these challenges and accomplishing what they were able to do in the structure of the program. LG: Nowadays, we talk about it as learning about diversity and living with it. JB: And that is absolutely what they did. What I thought was interesting was that each student had their own way of growth. It wasn't like a cookie-cutter experience. Each person developed according to their own situation, their own interests, their own needs, but there was always growth. You couldn't go through that program without major growth. LG: So, Joan, what were the major challenges? JB: I think the biggest challenge was having to move from Barcelona to Madrid. That was, for me, it was a big disappointment. Barcelona is a wonderful city. It's just- Page 5 of 12 �LG: It was the cultural center of Spain at the time, wasn't it? JB: And it was the cultural center. It was much more interesting city than Madrid under the dictatorship. It had a lot of communications with France and the rest of the democratic world, and it was just more open. It welcomed a lot of the Latin American intellectuals and writers from those times. So it was a very interesting place. That's one of the negative outcomes of this nationalistic kind of closing in on yourself. The nationalistic movement has closed Barcelona off to diversity. Basically, to diversity. So anyway, it was very challenging, first of all, because it was a big disappointment that we weren't able to stay there, because it just did not work for our program because of the way we wanted students to integrate into the culture. But also, anybody who is interested in my opinion knows that I never recommend anybody going to a program in Barcelona. The programs that I'm aware of in Barcelona have becomeLG: Now? JB: Now. Most of their instruction is English, but also they're very popular and well known as fun programs. What do you call the schools that have... Was that mine? LG: Yeah. JB: Oh, it's mine. Oh, sorry. So, I'm talking about these programs in Barcelona today, from what I've heard and people I've talked to, they've become very popular party schools where students go because they don't have to work very hard, everything is in English, and they have a lot of fun at the parties. Now, in Madrid, you could have fun at the parties, but you had to do a lot of work and you had do a lot of other things besides partying. And I don't think that's the best way to take advantage of the great opportunity that studying in another country has to offer. LG: Were you able to set up similar kinds of internships in Madrid? JB: Oh, absolutely. We had very interesting internships. And also, in Alcalá, we had kind of a mini program in Alcalá for students interested in a smaller town environment. LG: Now, Alcalá was... JB: So, Alcalá is where my husband, Angel Berenguer, was teaching at the university and we developed a relationship with them to be able to set up a mini program. It's basically a half hour train ride from Madrid to Alcalá. So our students were in Alcalá, they lived with families in Alcalá, they went to the university for their courses, but they came into Madrid once a week to do the basic culture program and also to make sure that they were able to take advantage of Madrid as well as Alcalá. Some of these students preferred not to have the big city experience, but we wanted them to have some kind of exposure to Madrid. And so that worked well. Page 6 of 12 �And I must mention that the other interesting thing about the program was that we set up, with Skidmore College, a scholarship arrangement for the students from Alcalá. Usually it was two students from the University of Alcalá and two students from the Autonomous University of Madrid. Those are the two universities where our students were directly enrolled in courses. LG: Excuse me. So they could take courses at Alcalá or the university? JB: Right. The University of Alcalá and the Autonomous University of Madrid. And so the exchange arrangement with those two universities was that two of their students could come to Skidmore for a year, tuition-free and room and board free, and work, I think it was the lab part of the language courses that they were teaching, like conversation courses, at the department here to help out with student language development. And then they could sign up for the courses they needed to get credit for their university requirements. That was also a great opportunity for the students who came back from the program to have these Spanish students around as well, to be able to help them out in the same experience that they had just had themselves in Spain. So that was also, I think, an enrichment both for the students and the college as well. LG: So, did the program grow over the course of those years? JB: There was some growth and then there was some loss of students. When Skidmore actually set up their own Programs Abroad Office, then there was a larger possibility of students studying at other places besides our own programs. And so we for a couple of years, we lost students that were going to programs in Latin America that were being offered by the Programs Abroad. But they came back and they stayed pretty stable. [inaudible 00:24:31]. LG: But those programs, in Latin America, for example, were not Skidmore programs? JB: They were not Skidmore programs. But they were approved by the Programs Abroad Office, which it was and is a separate administrative entity that dealt with the logistics of signing the students up. And one thing that I haven't mentioned before, because we had an interesting relationship with Regis Brodie, who was from the art department at Skidmore, and he helped us develop opportunities for students interested in ceramics in Madrid. Because this was another option. Besides the regular academic courses at the university, there were possibilities of students taking, at other institutions where we had developed relationships that we had vetted for their quality, students could take specialized type courses, for example in ceramics. And so there's this wonderful ceramics school from the beginning of the 20th century, beautiful place, where students were... These were people who were going to become ceramists? No. LG: Ceramicists. Page 7 of 12 �JB: Ceramicists. So it was very high quality. But our students had a wonderful time. Regis, who,.. he is internationally famous, and so they knew him and they knew his work. He has work in several Spanish museums. They were delighted to be able to set up this system where our students could go and take courses, and get the grades for those courses and get credit transferred here to Skidmore, especially for our art majors. So those kinds of opportunities were also available. And especially with Regis, it was wonderful because he ran a program during the summerLG: Summer 6? JB: Summer 6. Where he also, I think every two years, he brought one of those students from the ceramics school for a summer experience. And that was also very popular and very successful. LG: Now one of the people whose name I remember is Rosa Ajenjo. JB: Oh, right. Right. And she was a friend of ours and she taught English in a high school in Spain. And she came to teach some Spanish courses here, one year? Was it one year or one semester? I can't remember. But there was also these other kinds of exchange experiences between the two countries that Skidmore was taking advantage of. LG: So how did the finances work? JB: So things worked out financially because Skidmore was charging students their regular tuition, which is very expensiveLG: Room, board, and tuition. JB: Right. Room, board, and tuition. And the basic expenses in Spain were less expensive because Spain is less expensive and tuition is very cheap. And we weren't paying tuition because we had the exchange system. So Skidmore was actually using their free tuition, room, and board for the exchange students against our tuition at the University. LG: Now, the room, board, and tuition, did that also include trips? JB: Yes. LG: And did it include air fare? JB: It did not include air fare, but it included trips. We tried to take students to areas of the country that they probably wouldn't go on their own, that were not so normal tourist attractions. Which was interesting. And also, something I haven't mentioned, because they were paying high tuition compared to expenses in Spain, we also offered them... I mean, we covered lots of their expenses. We covered their transportation pass. There's a youth transportation pass that Page 8 of 12 �they could get to and from the university and any other place; all of their cultural activities in the cities, to and fro from Alcalá. We covered their extra meal because they had two meals with the family, but to give them more flexibility they got a lunch allowance weekly to cover that third meal. And then we also covered, besides the required cultural activities, they could also do other cultural activities and write about these cultural activities and get reimbursed for whatever expense the cultural activity had, which might include trips. So they could do their own trips. We encouraged them to do trips with Spanish friends. But it didn't matter. As long as they had a cultural experience that they could include in their journals. They had journals about the experiences that they were having with the culture, with the classes, etc. And so all of those expenses were covered by the program. A lot of the students said that they didn't spend practically any extra money in Spain because so much of the experiences in Spain... Of course, the trips that we covered were always in Spain, which is something else that I think is interesting because we really encouraged students to take advantage of what is a very unique opportunity in life. A 20-year-old in a foreign country, as a student, has many more opportunities to connect with all sorts of different aspects of the people, the culture, the atmosphere, than any regular tourist has. And we reminded them that they would have many, many opportunities to do tourism for the rest of their lives. Which is also a wonderful experience, but it's very different and it's not ever at the same level that these students could have with their integration into society. A niece of mine, a different program, a different, perfectly acceptable American University program, she just spent a semester on the program. And my cousin said, "Oh, yeah. They set it up so that there were no classes on Friday so that everybody could travel." Every single weekend, she traveled to a different European country. So this is a student, who, when I heard she was going, I sent her messages, and she wrote back to me in Spanish. Very good Spanish. I said, "Oh, your Spanish is excellent. I'm so happy. You're going to have a great time in Madrid." When she came back, when she ended the program, she wrote to me in English. Somebody who had just spent a semester in Madrid and she writes to me in English. Which, I think, says something about that kind of experience. Which is, it's just a waste of time. This is so much against the way I think about the opportunity that programs abroad should offer students. And that's the way we had based the philosophy in our program. LG: So, since you retired, what have you been up to? JB: Well, I am loving retirement. Although, I kind of retired without being sure I was doing the right thing, because I really love my job and I felt like I was having the best possible work experience in the world. But I must say that I've really enjoyed retirement. Both my husband and I, we retired at the same time so we've done lots of travel. We have family that's kind of spread over the world, over the globe, so we have time to spend with all of our family members in other parts of the world. Page 9 of 12 �But the other thing that I just really enjoy is having the luxury of saying, "Oh, I'm interested in this. I'm going to read this book about the different places that were settled in the United States and how that impacted the culture development to this day." I mean, interesting books like that that I never had time to... I always felt like I had to read in my specialty and keep myself abreast. But having that luxury of being able to read in all sorts of different areas. I've been reading about pre-Socratic philosophers in Ancient Greece. I mean, there's so many things that are just fascinating to read about history. I love history. And to have that luxury of being able to have plenty of free time is something I'm really enjoying. It's something that's new in my life, so it's been great. I haven't mentioned this, but we live, between the United States, we spend three months in the Boston area, in Medford, and then basically three months in Spain, and then three months in Medford, then three months in Spain, so we're kind of back and forth also in terms of where we live our lives. LG: Do you spend time in Abu Dhabi? JB: Those are trips, not spending two months there. LG: Seeing family. JB: Right. We spend time in Abu Dhabi with our family there, and then we spend time in England, where we have family there as well. And then we spend some time in California where all of my family lives. I'm the only stray sheep. LG: Anything else that we should mention? JB: Well, I must mention that one of the things that I think helped me have a dream job was the kind of support I always felt from the Skidmore administration. I never had any major challenges from the Skidmore administration. I felt very supported in the kinds of developments, the way we saw the program. I felt like people like you, people from the department, were always on board with the kind of program that we wanted our students to experience. And so I only had cooperation from the department and from the Skidmore administration. LG: Anybody in particular? JB: You. LG: No. JB: Specifically you. LG: Outside of that. JB: The Lertoras were always very supportive, and Grace was always very supportive. Page 10 of 12 �LG: So, the Lertoras, that's Juan Carlos Lertora andJB: Juan Carlos Lertora and Patricia Rubio, and Grace Burton, and... What's his name? Another Spanish professor whose name... And Mike Madrovich. So I must say, all of the Spanish professors were very helpful, very supportive, and I always felt like we were all on board in terms of what our objectives were, how we should deal with the students. The kinds of students that they sent on the program, they were all so well selected, because that selection happened at Skidmore. I didn't select the students, they were selected by theLG: But did you meet with them? JB: I met them. Right. They were selectedLG: So you would come back every year. JB: Every semester. I came back in November and usually in April, and we interviewed all the new students that were going to be coming the next semester and talked about what they were looking forward to, what their expectations were, what their priorities were, especially in terms of the kind of family they wanted to live with, to help them prepare their trip. So I think that that's important, that having a job like that, which is a distance, a far distance from the central administration, and feeling like you're being supported and you've got people on board with you in terms of the way the program is run. And we never had any major problem, whatsoever. LG: When you were on campus, did you meet with people in business office or anyJB: Sometimes. And art, and theater, because of specific students that were working in one project or another of interest. Or, sometimes, because there were some credit questions about what kind of credit should we give and what different courses. LG: There was an interdepartmental committee that was overseeing these programs that brought in Spain and France. Did you meet with them? JB: Yes. Yes, we met with them as well. And from my point of view, all of it worked very well, and I felt extremely well taken care of in terms of not having any administrative headaches. Which is something you really appreciate. LG: Anything else? JB: No. As you can hear, I had a wonderful experience and I feel very privileged to have been able to have had this job for, I worked for Skidmore for like 29 years. No, I worked in Spain for 29 years and if you count the other five years, that's like 34 years. So it was a longLG: Not bad. Page 11 of 12 �JB: ... long time, at Skidmore. LG: Thank you, Joan. JB: Thank you very much. Page 12 of 12 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joan Berenguer Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 38:40 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joan Berenguer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 13, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Joan Berenguer came to Skidmore in 1974.  She taught Spanish in the Department of Foreign Languages and Literatures for two years and then served as an academic advisor for UWW in 1978-79.  When Skidmore began its own junior year abroad programs, Joan and her husband Angel ran the program in coordination with Tufts University, first in Barcelona and then in Madrid. In this interview Joan recalls the powerful influence of cultural integration, internships and student exchanges. Joan retired in 2009. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/87f8de9ebb94716d34433076650dde92.jpg ffd1c4ba1cbd9ca4114593ddf382f6af https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f0b1c0efb3d388c4de9c636ed2e54c9e.m4a f78a438f02a247cc4fb6584bee1317ba https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4a9565e692d4a8b317c3cde0a522caea.pdf 10e429d45578497dba7e20e1c4697239 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/ebdf33e59eeaffde26e3d22bf22801eb.pdf a531790415a4517a743fab60f3fa9d4d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Olivia Fidler '19 Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit November 19, 2018 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joanna Zangrando Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:34:47 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joanna Zangrando Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 29, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource During her years at the College (1976-2007), Joanna Zangrando was a central figure in Skidmore’s American Studies Department and a leading voice for incorporating interdisciplinarity and the study of diverse perspectives into the College curriculum. In this interview she reflects on her experiences helping to create and sustain Skidmore's signature Women’s Studies and Liberal Studies programs. Faculty Gender Equity Feminism Liberal Studies Mary Lynn Reconfiguration student body study abroad Women's Studies https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b962768874556c2de708c2ba9dc8265e.m4a d46b84b2b2df6cadbe13ffa146eaf136 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/79930eb0c641e7ba0a8c8b2fda1ade4c.pdf fdc46015e6acd5e2f16a50df38aec497 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/59213eb0ac9ef7a29e199eb939664ceb.pdf ba2ebbf2c35e87925a93188eb2000991 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Justin Rizzi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Johann Miller Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY (Zoom), and Milton, NY (Zoom) Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Justin Rizzi Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 56:44 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/11/2020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Johann Miller Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Justin Rizzi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 26, 2020 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource In this interview, recording by a student in the Fall 2020 oral history class, as part of the project titled "Preserving Our Past," Capital Region resident Johann Miller describes her life, from leaving her childhood home at 18 to attending Woodstock with her future husband. Language A language of the resource English (en) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Justin Rizzi Johann Miller Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. December 4, 2020 fall 2020 oral history oral history fall 2020 saratoga senior center https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4aa1606f769de13066cd270aaa229517.jpg ed6e14a0b3ef95d0523cbc0de02a70d6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0d216118c817b3b76c1ffb2b18e2eed0.m4a 6932b7a55735743226652e65c2ee3325 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f4404d93075421d6a13999df37183bea.pdf 387afcda2f0b0c35624f067937ff141f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d413b3241c02879c7db5913eb0097dd0.pdf 9d7c18904e4e7ed22fad4b336a896a07 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Emily Meagher Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Anzalone Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:05:49 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Anzalone Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 24, 2016 Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Emily Meagher Description An account of the resource Since September  1985, John Anzalone has been a professor of French at Skidmore College. An interdisciplinary scholar, Anzalone has taught in language, film, and the art of translation. He was centrally involved with Skidmore’s study abroad programs as well as the implementation of its Media Studies program in 2014. In this interview, he speaks about these endeavors as well as the broader experience of being a faculty member at Skidmore for over thirty years. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Abstract A summary of the resource. Interview with John Anzalone by Emily Meagher, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, February 24, 2016. art history Curriculum Foreign Languages and Literature Interdisciplinary Collaboration International Students J-Semester Liberal Studies MALS Media Services Michael Arnush study abroad https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f9bce7006c931b2eaed235784e38d6e5.jpg 18883315413995f40af946c047c4a9cb https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8b26d55b932f59a5ef2abbca8a10c621.m4a 5f1678d9abc1289ccfbb2f9fc74d1024 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/98de521eb464ccd78387d86597f88d65.pdf 4ae6bb3425ed95228a9f361a028a0f9e PDF Text Text Interviewee: John Cunningham Years at Skidmore: 1967-2017 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: April 4, 2022 00:00:00 Header 00:00:39 Grew up in Greenwich, CT; uncle, who was painter, lived with family, normalizing notion of career as artist. 00:01:21 As child, always interested in creative projects, science, & math. 00:01:38 Earned Bachelor’s degree in Physical Chemistry from Kenyon College (OH). 00:02:12 In senior year at Kenyon, took first painting class - discovered the excitement of art:“every mark was unique.” Subsequently decided to apply to Yale to study art. 00:03:24 Kenyon painting teacher Joe Slate supported decision & helped get Yale interview. 00:04:45 Yale interviewers thought it “cool that a scientist …wanted to be an artist.” 00:05:45 Cunningham had no sculpture experience before Yale, though his uncle had studied w/ Jackson Pollock. 00:06:20 “I really loved college! …I didn’t …get all As. I got As in those kind of things that interested me, mostly the strange things that everybody else flunked [laughs].” 00:06:55 Two degrees from Yale: BA in 1963 & MA 1965. 00:07:10 Chemistry background led to job in Yale Geology department neutron activation lab. 00:09:12 After Yale, worked for kinetic sculptor George Rickey; physics knowledge helpful. 00:10:42 A couple of years later began to seek teaching positions & hired at Skidmore (1967). 00:12:18 “At that point, Yale graduates …[were known for creating] teaching experiences that produced … extraordinary results … individuals with just staggering skills.” 00:14:16 In early years at Skidmore, there was a lot of socializing between faculty & parents and faculty & students. When Cunningham interviewed w/ Alice Mosher, she mentioned some faculty who had married students. That wasn’t shocking then. 00:15:55 Also, there was a strong collaborative working atmosphere among the art students. 00:18:20 When Skidmore all women, much student travel; after men began to attend, less travel. 00:19:45 In first few co-ed years, the women voted the men into the offices/leadership positions. 00:20:47 Before became fully co-ed, male RPI & Colgate students attended Skidmore courses. 00:21:02 One Colgate medical student, Ben Cohen, also interested in art. Cunningham insists, “I did not flunk him! [laughs] … He was a really great guy.” 00:22:55 “I was absolutely staggered by the accomplishments and skill of the women at Skidmore… stunned at how high the board scores were… impressed by the accomplishments … and still am, actually.” 00:24:45 The Great Race: originated with donation of huge amount of styrofoam; realized it would be great for making boats, opened up community contest to make boats out of anything and then race them across a pond out in Greenfield. 00:29:12 The old campus had problems with security. New campus building is beautiful, but we lost the faculty studio space, which had been a focal point of student-faculty activity. 00:31:04 During planning for new building, Cunningham spoke to architect and suggested a way to expand his office without expanding costs, so ended up with huge office! �00:32:56 While at Skidmore, “I started my own business, I had patents, I kept going on my scientific pursuits, I published in Nature magazine, … and I was very involved with my teaching … I just generally loved my teaching. My students were great, absolutely great.” “My goal was to present students with really exciting and interesting materials and circumstances where they could really just fulfill themselves, and my goal was to help them do that.” 00:34:41 In 1967, Skidmore art dept. didn’t even have a drill press. By 2017, had 3-D printers. 00:35:33 Upon starting, ordered many tools and taught students to use them. The existing faculty didn’t think it appropriate for women to use tools like bandsaws and compressors. 00:36:52 While sculpting one day, discovered method for craning force; published & patented. 00:40:19 Started company that built Seicon isolator, a device to absorb vibrations. 00:41:10 Started the business because he had presented info about the isolator to Caltrans, who offered to support a bridge project if he could raise $ for it. 00:41:47 No bridge, but raised over $3 million, learned a lot, enjoyed science and art combo. 00:43:12 After the business, time writing about conceptual art. Not yet published, but might. 00:44:41 In retirement, enjoying beach driving and fishing. Also doing 3-D printing sculpture. 00:45:38 To do 3-D art, one must know how to draw well. … “I’m having a lot of fun with it.” 00:47:05 Unlike riding a bike, the software is challenging to get back to after being away. Overall, the CAD (Computer Aided Design) software is “more difficult than you’d think." 00:49:00 “I regard myself as an incredibly lucky man.” I don’t …recall actually having a boss … I came from that generation where faculty would shout and argue with the president at faculty meetings.” Remembers one meeting where “Somebody took a swing at somebody else!” 00:51:30 On introducing students to using computers in the creative process, started incrementally. 00:52:56 Once when there was difficulty getting budget approval for supplies, met with Dean. “He was just so amazed at what I was showing to him … we got some neat stuff, really wonderful stuff.” 00:55:42 “It was just an extraordinary privilege. I had a lot to do! You know what I mean? I had a lot to do!” [laughs] 00:56:08 END � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/90a540b6ae834d682d09265a71f9886a.pdf 41169655b458e6632df97302f7647052 PDF Text Text Interview with John Cunningham by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 4, 2022. JOHN CUNNINGHAM: This is harder than I thought it was going to be. [laughs] LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber. It’s April 4th, 2022. I’m here with John Cunningham, retired from the Art Department, and our wonderful helper Susan Bender. And John, welcome. It’s really nice to see you after so many years. I just want to ask you to tell us where you grew up and how you came to be at Skidmore. So why don’t we start there. JC: Ok. I grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut. My uncle was a painter and he lived with us for years. So, when I was small, growing up, the smell of oil painting, like, just filled the house, and one of the things about it was, I guess when you grow up that way, you know, the idea of being an artist is just truly a real thing. There’s nothing odd or strange about people being artists — it’s just a thing that people do. I also wonder about the oil fumes. I always kind of feel, looking back on it, who knows? I could have been really intelligent [laughs] if it weren’t for those fumes! And I guess I was always interested in what I thought to be creative stuff. I did lots of projects when I was younger, and I was very, very good at science, and particularly mathematics, and so when I went off to college, at Kenyon College in Ohio, I was a … physical chemistry was my speciality. And I was … [laughs] actually, looking back on it, I tell my students about this and they feel it’s a little bit sick… I was remarkably good at it. I was remarkably good at the math. I could walk up to a blackboard in those days, and write out — actually I needed two blackboards — and write out the proof of the �Heisenberg uncertainty principle. And … I didn’t think of it at the time, I look back and I don’t even think my professors could do that. My senior year in college [laughs] I took a painting course. And that’s when I discovered that being creative really had nothing, necessarily, to do with science. One of the things about science I always thought was interesting, that for a thing to be real, for a thing to actually be considered to have happened, it has to happen more than once! [laughs]. If a thing happens just once — well I guess the Big Bang happened once, so I guess we have to accept that — but if things just happen once, scientists just assume it just really didn’t happen because it must be duplicable and be observed by others. And, and then I discovered art. Did that, you know. You reach out to that canvas and you blot your brush to that surface, every mark was special, every mark was unique, and I discovered that being creative had nothing to do with putting on a lab coat and mechanically reproducing experiments that hundreds of other people had done before. So, I took that one painting course and … LG: Was it the professor or people in the class who inspired you, or … the material? JC: It was me. Oh, and I had a great teacher, very imaginative, Joe Slate, very imaginative and… LG: What was his name? JC: Joe Slate. Joseph Slate. He was a Yale graduate, and one day in the spring of my senior year, Joe said to me, he said, … no, actually, I started it, because I said, “Hey Joe,” I said, “You know, I’m thinking of changing from chemistry and maybe focusing on art.” Joe goes, “Really?!” He says, “You know, I was going to ask you about that,” he said, “but I didn’t want to �change your opinion. I didn’t want to be forward,” he said. He said to me, would you like to go to Yale?” [laughs]. So I said, “Yeah, sure I’d like to go to Yale!” Because at that point it began to dawn on me that being creative was something far more exciting than just donning a lab coat and mechanically reproducing events that were well known and experienced before, but rather there were aspects of being creative that were tremendously exciting, really, really unique, and I was sure art was one of them. LG: So, you went to Yale for an MFA? JC: Yeah, and, with … but I went to Yale. Well first, Joe Slate set me up with an interview at Yale, see — because I had taken no art courses to speak of! [laughs] This one painting course! And I was applying for entrance at Yale Graduate School! But Yale in those days offered a BA and a BFA, and so I went up for my interview and the people there thought it was so cool — this was the old days, you could never get away with things like this nowadays — they thought it was so cool that a scientist person wanted to be an artist. I went up there, met a bunch of people, walked around, talked, and they said, “Okay, you’re in.” [laughs] And for the next 3 years I thought I was a special student, you know, but I wasn’t! I was just a student but I was a student who had absolutely no art experience whatsoever and I was in graduate school, see. LG: But you had had experience with oil painting? JC: Well, I’d done a little bit of, yeah, a semester of oil painting LG: But with sculpture? JC: No, I had no experience at all. Although my uncle, my uncle did study with Jackson Pollock at the … at the Munson Arts Institute in New York. He was a student with him. He said that the most intelligent thing he heard Jackson �Pollack ever say was “Gin is a great cathartic.” Now, I knew what gin was, I’m not sure, even today, I know what a cathartic is, [laughs] but it sounded really funny at the time. So, anyway, I loved … actually, looking back, I have to say, even when I was at Kenyon studying science, I loved college! I really loved college. You know. Although I have to say I wasn’t, I didn’t certainly get all As. I got A’s in those kind of things that interested me, the strange things that everybody else flunked. [laughs]. LG: John, what kinds of … well let me ask you, when did you get your degree from Yale? JC: Well, I have two degrees from Yale. Let me see, one was, I think, in ’63, to my surprise, they gave me a BA, and then in ’65 I got my MA from Yale. Actually, when I was at Yale I got a job — most of my fellow students at Yale got jobs in the Geology department doing, you know, drafting work in the Geology department. And so I went to the Geology department and said, “Hey, all my friends are working here. Have you got a job for me?” But I knew nothing about drafting! And they said to me, “What can you do?” And I said, “Well I know something about chemistry.” Turned out I knew a lot more about chemistry than anybody in the Geology department [laughs] who were accustomed to studying rocks! So, they put me in charge of a neutron activation lab, because that was my speciality when I was in college, and I was really very good at it. And, as a consequence of that — neutron activation is when you bombard a molecule with neutrons, and you create an unstable isotope and that emits radioactivity that’s proportional to the amount of that material in a substance. And we were working on processes where if you took a tablespoon of alcohol and mixed it in Lake Superior, we could measure it. [laughs] But, during the process I got very radioactive, and after my third … third, no second year, or so, my son was just born, the chair �of the Geology department called me into his office and he said, “John, I have to tell you something. You’ve just recorded more radioactivity than anybody else has ever recorded at Yale university!” [laughs] So, that was …I used to think it was funny, I brought my friends to the lab and I would wave my hands in front of the Geiger counter and I always thought it was funny. But you know in those days, who knew! We didn’t know. I always … I wondered a little bit about what the effect was on my health, but here I am at an advanced age and I seem to be doing alright, so! [laughs] LG: Ok, so when you left Yale, what year was that? JC: I think that was in ’65. But I went to, after I left Yale, I got a job working for a sculptor, a kinetic sculptor by the name of George Rickey. LG: And how did you meet George? JC: George sent a letter out to all of the graduate schools saying that he was looking for an assistant. He was looking for somebody who could weld, who could solder, who could do metal work and all these other things, and I could do those things so I responded. And, George and I, we had the most amazing relationship because George was an incredibly educated man, classically educated, and what we would do, he was a kinetic sculptor — kind of think of Calder, in a way, things that balance, you know, center of gravity, period functions, things like that — and we would sit around George’s table, right, in the morning drinking coffee, and on a napkin George would talk physics to me, back and forth, and he would draw these things out on a napkin and then I would go out into the studio and I would make them. And I was very good at the science part of it. One of the problems with George, he had other artists who were assistants and these were people who could make things but they never understood the science of �it, and so I was the first person he ever worked with who understood, you know, things like center of gravity, movements, you know, and so forth. LG: So how come … you only stayed with him … one year? JC: I worked with him for about three years, and at one point, I guess I walked in and I realized it was time for the little bird to fly the nest, you know? And I could easily see that I was getting too comfortable. And so what I did … [laughs] talk about, you know, well luck, talk about luck, and maybe that’s the secret to life, is luck, and being ready to act when that coin flips your way, you know. So, I sat down and got a map, and I was living in a house where, fortunately, we were paying very little rent, and I drew a circle on that map of commuting distance, right, and LG: And where was that house? JC: The house was in Chatham, NY. And … big circle of commuting distance, and within that circle were three colleges with significant art departments. And one was SUNY, one was Williams and one was Skidmore. And, so I just fired them off letters, saying, “Are you looking for a sculptor?” [laughs] And all three of them were!! Can you imagine that? And… LG: Well there was also a significant Yale presence here at Skidmore… JC: Oh yeah, but that wasn’t necessarily a welcoming thing in those days. LG: Oh? JC: Oh yeah. Oh boy, there were politics involved in that decision. Everybody was amazed at Skidmore that they hired me because those other three Yale guys [laughs] were very controversial. And yet, here again, they hired a fourth one, you know! Although I have to say I was a little bit of an outlier. Although come to think about it, I’m thinking … at that point, Yale graduates, with Josef Albers sort of background and direction, flooded the country with ideas about design and creativity that were aesthetically �magnetic, and these people put together very, very teachable experiences that produced just extraordinary results, just extraordinary results! There was a horrific flaw in the entire process, though, … and early on I kind of, I knew exactly what it was, because these people believed, truly believed in their heart of hearts, that they had defined creativity! They truly believed this. And, of course, if you just think about it for a second, the moment you define what being creative is, it ceases to be creative. I can’t understand why more people didn’t see that, you know? Although, as far as a teaching vehicle goes, they were able to produce individuals with just staggering skills. People who could manipulate color and form. We produced students who could draw with skills that you just don’t see nowadays. Our students could sit down with an H pencil and sketch you while you sat and talked to them, you know, they were that skilled. And … LG: So now are you talking about Skidmore students? JC: Skidmore students … well I’m talking about the Yale courses that were developed all across the country. And, of course, I was a part of that, so in that kind of context, I’m probably, as far as a teacher goes, more attractive, you know. LG: So, what courses did you teach when you started here? JC: Well, I taught … LG: And you started here in, again, 19… JC: ’67. 1967. It was an all-women’s school… it was an all-women’s school… Oh, can I tell you …? Okay, so, my very first interview with the chair of the department, Alice Mosher, who was this wonderful, wonderful, brilliant, brilliant woman. So, she sits down and she’s talking about the department and she’s, “Well…” and she describes the department and the faculty, and she’s “Oh, four or five of the faculty,” I can’t remember how many, �“married Skidmore students.” I said, “Oh really,” I said, you know, “That’s interesting.” [laughs] You know, didn’t think anything of it! “That’s good, I guess,” you know? Years later, I can remember talking to my student assistant and I said, “Yeah, when I came here it was really interesting, in my first interview the chair of the department said there were a number of faculty that married Skidmore students,” and the guy went, my assistant went, “What!?” He was horrified! He was shocked! And I, when he was shocked, I was shocked! I thought, “What did I say?” You know, “What did I say?” [laughs]. To make a long story short, there was a period when we started, Lynne, you must remember this, the faculty and the students were really, really close. Really close. The faculty were also close to their parents, the parents would come visit on the weekend, we’d have them over, we’d have Bloody Mary’s on a Saturday afternoon, you know, the drinking age was 18. We had “beer crits” [laughs] every Friday afternoon at 4 o’clock in my studio. And … it was an exciting time. Oh, another thing about it that I thought was interesting, as opposed to my view of artists today, is that we all shared. It was a sistership, it was a brotherhood, it was like, we were all engaged in this wonderful, exciting venture together, you know? Nowadays it’s every man or woman for yourself, you know? There’s not that sense of sharing and communication that existed then. LG: I think that may have been your department. JC: And, oh yes. Yeah, in particular. LG: Not all departments were like that. JC: I think that’s probably true. �LG: There was considerable sharing across departments, by individuals, though. JC: Yeah. No, I think you’re probably right on that. But it was also because, that Yale background, we had this project, we were all engaged in this dream, pursuing this dream, it was truly magical, looking back at it. There was a soul to our involvement with the class, and with teaching, that I think sort of evaporated over the years, you know? I feel privileged to have been able to be a part of it. LG: When you interviewed, did you interview with anybody besides Alice Mosher? JC: Oh yes. Edwin Moseley, who was Dean of the College, and uh, this was funny, so Edwin says to me, in our first interview, he says, “John, have you ever been to Skidmore before?” And I said, “Yeah, yes I have.” Well, I had because my brother’s girlfriend called me up at Kenyon once, I think I was a junior, called me up, this was my brother’s girlfriend, and she said to me, “Would you like to come to Skidmore’s dance weekend with me?” JC: I said, “I’m in the middle of Ohio, I have no way of getting there. Although I have a friend with a car. Can you get two or three of my friends dates and we’ll all drive up together?” And she said, “Sure.” So, we threw a case of beer in the back of a car and drove up to Skidmore. And, LG: Now this was a time when you could drink at 18 in New York but not in Ohio, is that correct? JC: Well, that didn’t slow us down in Ohio. I look back on it now, Kenyon was an all-male school, okay, so all we had to do was drink, you know? Skidmore was an all-women’s school and all they had to do was drink, I think, looking back on it. Davis, Tom Davis, was the chaplain. He told me once, he did a survey at Skidmore, probably a little before I got here, and he said, �“You know, we did a survey and discovered that at any given time, 50% of the girls were at other schools” because it was not that much fun to be, you know, all by yourself alone here at Skidmore, “and the other 50% wanted to leave but couldn’t!” [laughs] And while I was at Skidmore that changed, I have to say. We got co-educational; all of a sudden it was really, really rewarding, it was fun to be at Skidmore. LG: What difference did it make in your department to have men in the undergraduate classes? JC: Well, I have to tell you the first men were really kind of … chancy [laughs]. You ask yourself, Skidmore goes co-educational, what kind of guy would make that choice, right? So, our first candidates weren’t that strong, looking back on it. And I’ll never forget one of my good friends saying to me, “Boy,” she said to me, “You know, you really know when you’re hard up when those poor guys start to look good to you.” [laughs] And the first few years, you’ll remember this, the Skidmore girls voted men into all of the offices — do you remember that? That was also, I thought, really very revealing. But anyway, over the years things sort of evened out. It was a rough time for the college, but I think for those of us struggling through, it was a tremendously exciting time of flux, experimentation, and it was very, very alive. I’m not the only one looking back and feeling privileged being able to participate in that experience. LG: When … before we became a fully co-educational institution, there was four one-four, and, do you remember that men from Colgate would come over? JC: Four-one-four, I think, happened after we were, I’m pretty sure it did, we were co-educational, I think, by then. No? No. Because I was active … yeah, four-one-four. �LG: Because guys from Colgate would come over… JC: Yeah, and I had classes where guys from Troy came over, too. Troy — RPI. Yeah, I had a huge bunch of guys from RPI who would come. LG: Because one of the people who came from Colgate was a medical … well, he was studying to become a doctor, and his name was Ben Cohen. JC: Oh, I remember Ben Cohen! Oh my God, Ben Cohen was this … Ben, oh, it’s annoying, because Ben Cohen, Ben Cohen told the whole world that Cunningham flunked him! [laughs] in three dimensional. And I, here’s my chance to publicly set … I did not flunk Ben Cohen. [laughs] I gave Ben Cohen a permanent incomplete! [laughs] But, ah, no, I remember Ben Cohen very, very well. LG: And I remember Ben Cohen (*see note) because his father said he could not …um, he would not underwrite his college education if he left Colgate and decided not to be a doctor. He wanted to be an artist. JC: Yeah, yeah. LG: And I just am remembering that he then went into UWW instead. JC: Yeah. And I remember Ben Cohen at parties. We used to have student faculty parties, and I can remember on occasion stepping over Ben Cohen [laughs] at parties. But, I did not flunk him! He, actually, that was published in the magazine! I was shocked to see that published! [laughs]. But, no Ben was a great guy, though. He was really a great guy. LG: What were some of the other highlight moments of becoming co-educational? JC: Uhh… I will say this, that when I came to Skidmore as a young man, I grew up in a family with… I have two brothers, I went to Kenyon — it was all male, you know, and so when I arrived at Skidmore I was, as far as women go, I was I think rather shy, and I was absolutely staggered by the accomplishments and skill of the women at Skidmore. I remember going �through their college board scores as an advisor, and I was stunned at how high the board scores were — just absolutely stunned. And, that took me a long time … I got over that shyness, you may have noticed that [laughs]. But I was very, very shy. So, I started from a point of view where I really was impressed by the accomplishments of women at Skidmore, and still am, actually. And I think the guys came to Skidmore and ,all of a sudden, the college environment became whole and healthy, and men brought a very different sort of an attitude toward it, and we all grew, sort of, accordingly, but I have to say, looking back on it, some of my best friends today are women that I met, kind of back then as a consequence of shared activities, you know, and stuff… and men, too. LG: John, what are some of the other highlights from your experience at Skidmore? JC: Well of course we did the Great Race. Do you remember the Great Race? LG: Oh yeah! Why don’t you explain it? JC: Well in those days, see, if you really wanted to get a big crowd of people, all you had to do, since the drinking age was 18, was to get a keg of beer and a huge crowd would show up, see? So, if you had a project [laughs] that you wanted to do, getting it off the ground was really easy! So, about the time we started this I had arranged with — what is it, Monsanto? One of the big chemistry companies — to donate to Skidmore a boxcar full of Styrofoam. And, you have to see a boxcar to really understand how much Styrofoam that is! It’s a huge amount of Styrofoam! And I hadn’t considered how much it was. So anyway, the boxcar arrived at a siding and we had the Skidmore grounds people to take it … the only place we could put it on the old campus was in the steam room, the steam house, where they packed it in there in this great big industrial space and you went in there and you could just barely get �through and all the rest was Styrofoam! So, for years we made Styrofoam stuff. So, there we were in class one day and we’re thinking, “Hey, we’ve got all of this Styrofoam. It’s the perfect stuff to make boats. Let’s have a race!” [laughs] So it started in my class. So, we put posters up and I went and I talked to this guy Braim, who’s a local lawyer who owns — actually there’s a street named after him, and it’s Braim’s Pond; it’s up here in Greenfield, I think. And he gave us permission. In fact, he actually went and hired himself a master of ceremonies, which I thought was really kind of funny, but he really supported us. So, I put signs up and my assistant put signs up, and … I can remember my assistant, at that time, Mary KeatingLeahey, is her name now. So, we got a couple of kegs of beer, we put the kegs of beer on the side of the road where this pond was, and we sat there wondering, “is anybody going to show up?” [laughs] Feeling a little bit silly, but then, again, we had a couple of kegs of beer, at least we could drink beer [laughs] and then all of a sudden, at one point down the end of the road, we saw this car driving around the, it was an old dirt road, driving around this corner with this strange contraption strapped to the roof, and we knew we were good. And all these people showed up! And the pond, a week before, had been frozen, so the water was really, really cold. And so, for a series of years we held the Great Race! And we … what the hell was the prize? I’m trying to remember what the prize was. There was a whole series of rules, and the last rule, I think, was the best — the last rule was that you could cheat! [laughs] We made it very clear. LG: So, the idea was to make something with Styrofoam? JC: With anything. With anything! And the idea, we had a course laid out, see. And one time, since you could cheat, some guys from RPI came in wet suits and, in the middle of the night, and they laid a rope from one end of the lake �to the other, see, [laughs] and they had this contraption that they then tied the rope to and then when we said “start” the people on the other were like pulling on the rope! LG: Now did that ever continue on the new campus? JC: We did it for a couple of years and then I, you know, I … I thought that it was inappropriate for me to continue to be the prime mover of it and I just sort of tried to encourage the student body, just to take it over and sort of step out of it and it did happen, gosh, it still may be on the calendar, The Great Race, and they put this little notice up, I don’t think anybody shows up! But for years they would do this…[laughs]. LG: Let’s talk about the move to the new campus and how that affected you, how you adjusted to new space. JC: Oh well, the old campus was just a horrible, horrible thing, and the art department was the last to move. And we had terrible problems down there with security, so moving up here was a, just a wonderful opportunity. And, of course, the new building was beautiful. But, there were lots of things that we gave up. On the old campus, because you had all these old buildings, all the faculty had their own little studios. Now, the studio wouldn’t necessarily be a room any bigger than this, but it was your place to work. It was on campus. And, it was very funny, the plans always, always included faculty studios, as part of the future, and it’s sort of remarkable how, over the years, that was just forgotten. But I have to say, one of the things I greatly missed was the fact that my, our studios, the faculty studios, became just a focal point of student-faculty activity, on the old campus, and that we ended up losing. Our colleagues, outside of the department, always kind of … they would look at our building and see the teaching studios we have and somehow assume that those were our spaces, you know, but, really, they �weren’t — we couldn’t create our own work in the spaces reserved for students, and with supplies reserved for students, either. So, in the end I created my own studio, and many of the other faculty did, which meant that activities that used to — professional activities that used to involve Skidmore and my students ceased to exist because I was, you know, elsewhere. So that’s a price we paid. LG: Did you have any role to play in the planning of …? JC: Oh yes, oh yes. [laughs] So, my office was designed between ceramics, and there was another wing that was sculpture. And there was this little space, in between part, was my office, and I remember talking to the architect, “Hey look, do you realize that you could take that front wall of my office and move it forward another 20 feet [laughs] and all we have to do is just pay for a little bit more ceiling [laughs].” I said, “Furthermore, we can cut the expense by not putting any ceiling in, just leave the pipes open,” and so forth. So, I ended up with, I think, the biggest office on campus. In fact, Palamountain came to visit once and he’s looking around this brand-new building and somebody says, “Yeah, and this is John’s office” and Palamountain sticks his head in and then he goes, “How in the hell did Cunningham get this big space?” [laughs] I just happened to be there talking to the architect. [laughs]. But no, it was a beautiful space; I loved my office. And, in fact, when I retired I … for 50 years, I had a place on campus, you know, for 50 years, and it was always there. And that’s … LG: And you retired in what year? JC: I retired in, when did I retire … 2017? Yeah. Is that 50 years? Yeah. Something like that, yeah. So, I miss that office. I really do. Any place in Saratoga, I always had my office. And go hang out, go read, you know. But, �in fact, I haven’t been back to my office. It would make me feel sad. I’m hoping John Galt is in there….laughs] LG: So, were there other highlights that, you know, special moments for you, in the course of those 50 years? JC: Well, I think that, as I was saying before we started the formal part of the interview, I think …for me, I was really involved in doing things. I started my own business, I had patents, I kept going on my scientific pursuits, I published in Nature magazine, … and I was very involved with my teaching, I mean I just generally loved my teaching. My students were great, absolutely great. Wonderful, wonderful people. And, as I got older, I became very selfish, as I may have said, and if I could be on a committee and I thought I could make a difference I’d be on a committee. Otherwise, the hell with it. I think much of the stuff the faculty has to do involves jumping through hoops and I had already jumped through 50 years of hoops, so I just pursued my own heart and what I saw to be my students’ best interests. One of the things with my discipline, by the way, is that, as opposed to my friend who taught Physics, where much of the time he had to regretfully inform them that they just got a C minus, and hence their career as a doctor [laughs] was in question, you know, and suffered terrible phone calls from angry and hostile parents, my goal was to present students with really exciting and interesting materials and circumstances where they could really just fulfill themselves, and my goal was to help them do that. And at the very end I got heavily involved in three-dimensional printing, you know — computer processes. And, in fact, if I would be …one of the things that disappointed me a little bit about retiring is that in the three or four years just before I retired I was really able to bring sophisticated technologies like 3-D �printing to the Skidmore sculpture area, and just as we were getting off the ground I sort of left. [laughs] But I guess it’s ongoing now. In that same respect, when I came to teach at Skidmore the sculpture area had … like, a drill press [laughs]. No, wait a minute, it didn’t have a drill press! When I came, I ordered a drill press! I think they had a hand drill, you know! And that was the only tool they had. LG: So, you had to teach the students how to use the tools? JC: Yeah, oh, and that was … oh I remember the existing faculty were very upset because they didn’t think women should be … it was appropriate for women to use tools like that. Especially when I was ordering things like bandsaws and compressors. So, anyways, usually what I did was, I kind of outfitted Skidmore the way my own studio was outfitted … with like, well, in the end plasma cutters, welding equipment, woodworking stuff. My kind of work sort of spread over a variety of interests. Here is the interesting thing, though, my studio is bigger than my house at home and it has all of the kinds of stuff that Skidmore has, and now that I do 3-D printing, I don’t need any of it. [laughs] I don’t need any of it! I sit down in front of my computer, you know, and I create these drawings — which, by the way, is much harder than it sounds — hit a button, and a couple of weeks later a big box arrives on the front porch. And … I’m thinking that’s the future. That’s the future. That’s sort of the next step that I would have loved to have been able to see. LG: You mentioned that you had patents? JC: Yes. LG: Do you want to talk about that a little bit? JC: Uh, one day I was … I said that science sort of followed me around … I was making a piece of sculpture, right, and so I was reaching down my hands and had these little screen parts and I’m pushing them around, and, all of a �sudden, I saw a way of creating force that I knew nobody had ever seen before. I also knew for [sure-ity] certainty how the pyramids were built, how Easter Island was built, how Stonehenge was put together, and … but it seemed to be such an abstract, difficult thing … I was invited to be a guest lecturer at a Mensa convention once, and I brought all my models and things and at that point I hadn’t figured out the mathematics of it and I invited all of these intelligent people to look at this and see if they could help me kind of figure it out. You could see how it worked! You could see how you could lift something HUGE with a minimum of force, but mathematically I wasn’t able to see the picture until, [laughs] and every time I always say “whatever you do,” I say to my students, “Don’t throw away your old physics book.” [laughs] So I took my old college physics book, put it down, and discovered that I could figure out the math. And in those days, I don’t know if they still have the program, but NYU, which had a “premiero” physics department, had a relationship with the art department, or with the school, with Skidmore. You could go down to NYU and they would give you library services and stuff and help you do research and I went down there with the physics department at NYU. I sent them all my papers about how you could generate, or magnify, force using this principle, and I sent them all my mathematics, and I went down there. And I’ve since discovered that Larry Spruch, who was chairman of the department, was a world famous … world famous physicist! So, I went down to see him and I went in his office and there were four or five guys, and Larry Spruch was sitting in his office, and so I went down there and they were interviewing me about this process. And Larry, who by the way, had the deepest, strongest, most powerful voice of any human being I’ve ever met, he said, “John,” he says, “We’ve looked at your materials,” he says, “and John, it’s just garbage!” he said, “And,” he �said, “we almost just threw them in the trash!” and he actually threw them in the trash! [laughs] So I stood there … and … actually, looking back at all my projects and things, I always had … knock on wood, because there’s always an end to the story, you know, knock on wood, … I always had an ability to know what I didn’t know. Some people don’t have that ability at all, but, so far, I’ve always had that ability, you know, to know what I didn’t know. So, Larry … I’m going, “Yeah, but Larry, you see, you go like this, you go like this,” I go with my fingers, “and it’s an equilibrium and you … that is forcing that…” And Larry goes, “He’s right! He’s right!” [laughs] He says, “John,” he said, “you’d better publish this. We’ll help you publish it in Nature,” he said, “because if you don’t publish this idea,” he said, “somebody else is going to steal it.” That’s what they told me then. So not only did I publish it, but I also patented the constructions derived by it to build seismically isolated bridges and so forth. And I started a company — we marketed, for years, a device that would … absorb all the vibrations from your washing machine, you’ve got a washing machine it goes [wobble sound] like this. Our device would just totally solve the problem. In fact, Consumer Reports tested it, and they said, “We tested the Seicon isolator,” the washing machine isolator, “and it’s the only one we’ve ever tested that actually works!” [laughs] they said. But then they said, “but it’s very expensive!” [laughs]. Which pissed me off, you know? Caltrans … I went and made a presentation at Caltrans. Caltrans said that if I could find the funds to build a bridge, they would supervise it and they would test it, and I made arrangements to do that, but I had to raise the money to build the bridge. And not being a scientist, I didn’t have access, you know, to it. If I’d tried to write a grant proposal ,I didn’t even have the �vocabulary, you know, to do it. So, I decided to start a company — hopefully, my idea was, that we’d earn enough money to do the necessary research, but we got sort of sidelined … involved in other things. But anyway… Learned a lot being a businessman, though. Raised over three million dollars, actually, as part of the project. It was always funny, it’s like, people … I can remember prospective freshmen coming into my office, and usually, often, the father would be openly contemptuous of art as a future …[laughs]. The conversation would come up, “What do you do? What are you doing?” And at one point my company was invited to Bath Ironworks to see if we could apply the isolation system to the drive systems of Navy warships. So, I would say, “Yeah, this is what I’m doing.” [laughs] Only to get an angry letter from this guy saying that I’m supporting the military [laughs] establishment, see! I think it’s really cool, warships are really cool things! Oops! Anyway, so the science things, I sort of, I guess I never did separate it from my other interests, you know. LG: So, does that company still exist? JC: No, it sort of faded … faded out. It faded out. Well, when I was running it, it was going really well, but then I sort of lost interest in making money, and … I had other things to do. I’m really, super glad I did, too, you know, because I think I did … I ended up doing some really, really interesting things that I never would have done otherwise. LG: Like what? JC: Ah [laughs], well a lot of writing that hasn’t been published, okay. For example, I have written, I think, a staggering article about conceptual art, you know, based upon many of my experiences. And one of the things about getting older that I find really interesting, I have lots of things like this that I �haven’t published and I think they’re really, really important — it’s like my article for Nature, you know. LG: So where are you publishing? JC: I haven’t. It’s just living on my computer. Oh, little bits of it, little bits of it kind of go out into the world. But again, since I’m an artist and a sculptor and I didn’t come from a world that published, and things, and I think as a consequence I suffered from that. And I often think that since I’m retired now, I should be taking these efforts and I should be … because I may be gone [laughs] and it will all be forgotten and nobody will care! There’ll be this ton of stuff, nobody will even go through it, they’ll just put it in the garbage. [laughs] LG: So, what have you been doing since you retired? JC: Well, I just bought a brand-new Jeep Gladiator so I could really do substantial beach driving and fishing. [laughs] Okay. And I’m doing three-dimensional printing. I just ordered a work that’s done in stainless steel. It’s sort of an interesting process, it starts off with a powder, a bed of powder, and this laser fuses the powder, that’s how it makes it. And the interesting thing, since it’s in a powder, the form is supported so you can do delicate things, and I’m really interested to see that you could do stainless! It’s a modest size, it’s only about this big, and I’m really looking forward to seeing that. Although, this is interesting, I have, maybe, alluded to this earlier — I truly believe this — I look at the things I make, and they’re made with computer aided design programs, right, which are horrifically difficult to learn, you know, but to use any of these programs, to do them well, you have to kind of know how to draw, alright? And if you don’t know how to draw, you’re forced to lean on clip-art, and other methods, right? And so the quality of the artwork takes a huge hit. Nobody knows how to draw anymore. The people �teaching drawing don’t know how to draw any more. [laughs] Very, very few artists today can draw a flower pot and make it look like it’s sitting on a table top, for example, you know? And that’s one of the things that we used to do at Skidmore incredibly well, years ago. So, even with threedimensional printing, I have a feeling that the kind of work you’re going to see coming out of it is going to be limited, you know, in a way, because you are going to be limited by the innate skills of the creative minds making it. But, I’m not — it sounds like I’m discouraged, I’m not discouraged, I’m having a lot of fun with it. I should have brought some to show you, actually. LG: Will the artists have to learn code? JC: No, no, and I think that’s a huge mistake. I think people think they’re taking the off-the-shelf processes and using them, but they’re devilishly complicated. One interesting thing about software, I remember it being said that you never forget how to ride a bicycle, and that’s kind of true. You never forget how to ride a bicycle, but software, you forget how to do! [laughs] And one of the people my company was doing business with, one of the engineers remarked — he worked for a very large engineering firm — when their designers, when their people who worked with CAD programs, went on vacation, there was always a couple of weeks of down time for them to get back into the drawing because you forget! There’s something about the nature of using the software that, even if it’s sort of intuitive, it does not, it doesn’t stick with you. It’s very, very hard to do. And it’s funny because they have, Skidmore has started the, what is it, the Makerspace? And I always laugh because the people putting the Makerspace together haven’t really been doing three-dimensional printing or using the technology, and the biggest problem with the Makerspace is going to be how are you going �to get somebody to give you a drawing, a CAD drawing that’s adequate to create significant objects. And, I’ve never had a student come to me with those skills. So, it’s very, very... it’s much more difficult than you might think. Anyway, so that’s what I’m doing now. LG: We have about five more minutes left, so I’m curious to know if there’s anything we should include that we haven’t touched on, or that I haven’t asked about. JC: Well, no. Otherwise I should say, I may have said this already, I regard myself as an incredibly lucky man. That I’ve spent my whole life and I don’t think I ever recall actually having a boss, [laughs] you know? Surrounded … LG: I wonder how people like David Porter or subsequent art department heads would [laughs]… JC: I came from the, you know the generation. I came from that generation. I came from that generation where faculty would shout and argue with the president at faculty meetings. Do you remember that? You know? And, life has changed. Life has really, really changed. So, I always, I just assumed those prerogatives. It was a wonderful, wonderful opportunity. And, uh, I have to say I … LG: Whom did you shout at? JC: What’s that? LG: Who remains in your head that you shouted at? JC: Oh, I remember one of our colleagues. Were you at that faculty meeting? There was this fight and this argument and I was looking at this sea of people, you know, and all of a sudden over the crowd I saw this fist go up in the air! Somebody took a swing at somebody else! I don’t know who was the swinger and who was the swingee! [laughs] �LG: What was the topic? I mean what was the controversy? Do you remember? I don’t. JC: Do you remember that Sue? It was when we were meeting in … LG: Was it Filene? JC: No, that hall over here in, what’s its name, LG: Palamountain? JC: No, no down, where are we here … LG: Starbuck? JC: No, no, Starbuck, yeah. One of the, uh …. no, not Starbuck, in, let’s see… LG: Oh, on the new campus? Originally, we were meeting in Filene and then we were meeting in Palamountain. JC: But in Starbuck isn’t there, there’s a big, big meeting room that was big nough for all of us and we were in that room. LG: I think it was Filene, JC: No, no, it wasn’t Filene, for sure, I remember. Anyway, oh tempers! And it’s funny, I have seen a change. When, I think the faculty used to say they were the college and I don’t believe you can say that now. I’m not sure it was a healthy thing to say that, or believe that, but nonetheless I think they, we thought that in those days. LG: Anything else we should ask, Susan? SUSAN BENDER: Yeah, I’d be interested — when did you start introducing students to using computers in their creative process? JC: I started … oh, I actually gave a talk, one of those alumni talks, recently, and I showed some of the work my students did, and, so I started, oh my gosh, eight or nine years ago? But I started off gently. Now, of course, I send off a file and this beautiful finished thing comes back. But we started off with doing things like, um, we have a plasma cutter and you can program that �plasma cutter to cut two dimensional shapes out, okay? And you can create a virtual three-dimensional object and you can cut slices through it, threedimensionally, and with that plasma cutter you can cut out these cross sections. And, you can then — oh the plasma cutter you could cut out your signature, I mean, it does a beautiful, clean job — and, you can weld them all together. So, I got into, we got into the computer thing kind of incrementally, to the point where I am now, where it’s like, yeah, I do the whole CAD program and I will do a three-dimensional thing, and like, little by little by little. Oh, there was one thing, it was about four years ago, where I would submit a budget for the supplies, and nothing would happen, you know, and I was getting so frustrated because it’s like, time was passing and we were missing out, and so I decided to make an appointment with the Dean, and I would bring the Dean all the stuff… LG: Who was that? JC: I probably shouldn’t say. [laughs] Anyway, so, I went into his office, right? And, you know he knew me and I knew him and we’d seen each other around and I would speak up and stuff, and finally I said “Ok, listen, I’ve got to talk to you about … this is who I am and this is what I’ve done.” I showed him my Nature publication, I told him I was a scientist and … he was horrified! He was just shocked. Because his attitude towards artists was that artists just simply weren’t that intelligent. I just got that sense. He was just so amazed at what I was showing to him, because like out of the blue this guy comes up to him and says “Hey, listen this is what we are doing and this is what I want to do with it.” I was saying to him, you know? And I have to say he picked the ball up. He picked the ball up and we got some neat stuff, really wonderful stuff. And then I had to retire. [laughs]No, I didn’t have to �retire, but I did step down at … I’d like to think at the height of my game. [laughs] SB: Get out while the getting’s good? JC: I think I did, yeah. LG: John this has been a delightful hour to spend with you, thank you for sharing some of your stories. JC: I have to say that the entire experience, I think it was staggeringly significant in that it also had a lot to do with people and personalities, it had to do with the times. I know a lot of people, I remember, who was it, the Dean, ahh, what’s her name, … I remember asking her, why so many people retired embittered? So many of our colleagues, I thought, would retire, kind of … just embittered, angry, you know? And I vowed I just wasn’t going to do that. And she said, “Oh well, the student evaluations,” you know, all these sorts of reasons. I never felt that way. I just … it was just an extraordinary privilege. [inaudible] I had a lot to do! You know what I mean? I had a lot to do! [laughs] SB: Thank you John, this has been delightful. JC: Well, you’re welcome, you’re very welcome. END *NOTE- Ben Cohen started Ben & Jerry’s � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Cunningham Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 56:08 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit October 24, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Cunningham Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 4, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource John Cunningham grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut. In this interview he discusses how he combined his interest in physical chemistry and math with the art influence that surrounded him since childhood.  After receiving a BA and MFA from Yale, he joined the Skidmore art department in 1967 when Skidmore was still an all-female institution.  He discusses the influence of Josef Albers and the Yale approach to art that was prevalent among the 3 Yale-trained art professors already on the faculty, the effect of the transition to coeducation, the “Great Race” project to build a floatable object and the move to the new campus.  He further explores the introduction of the computer and later 3-D printing to art students.  Before and since his retirement in 2017 John has pursued science projects including an article published in "Nature" and presentations at science gatherings on building the pyramids.  John has received a patent for the Seicon isolator, favorably reviewed by "Consumer Reports."  Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History 3-D Printing 4-1-4 Academic Calendar Art & Science Campus Move coeducation Edwin Moseley Great Race on Braim Pond Josef Alpers Skidmore Social Life Yale Influence on Art https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0760a3d4e07b864ec4806f63eed488a0.png ad92cf235aec9c15623bcb2d4c77c6c8 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a34a117f77a095db0c35022d9534cf90.mp3 523c3ff228a1ae1d88556d4d646f4673 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Flurry Festival Description An account of the resource The Flurry Festival is a three day music and dance Festival that takes place in Saratoga Springs in February. The festival holds workshops, performances, dances, and jam sessions in the city center and throughout the town. The Flurry first started as a dance festival for contra dancing but has expanded to musicians and spans all genres of music and dance as well as encompassing family friendly events such as storytelling. Language A language of the resource English Subject The topic of the resource The Flurry Festival Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Davies, Clara-Sophia Daly, Dustin Foote, Amanda Muir, Tess Olcott, Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wav file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Colin Liscord Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Guay Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Library room 128C Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Interviewee: John Guay Interviewer: Colin Liscord Location of Interview: Study Room 128C in Skidmore Library Date of Interview: 12/1/16 00:00:01- Header 00:00:31- Introduction, born September 21, 1944 in Biddeford Maine. Currently resides in Easton New York. 00:01:14- President one Flurry Dance Organization. Runs seventy dances a year. Flurry originated to help fund local dances. Been going for thirty years. 00:02:34- Started small, thirty local performers. Grown to 4700 performers from all around. 00:03:22- Mission statement, to inspire and connect people through traditional music and dance. 00:11:36- Contra dance evolved for the dancers. 00:12:06- Flurry has evolved, started techno contras. Draws youth in, happens at midnight. 00:19:47- Plays hammer dulcimer. 00:23:28- Important historic and community event. More than just music and dance, brings community together. 00:25:05- During the Flurry have different rooms in hotel have music lessons, historic lessons and dances. 00:27:05- Added more dances over the years. Jamming together in the halls. 00:28:04- Started to see high school kids come and play instruments and dance. 00:32:04- Revitalization of music. 00:35:20- would like to see more Skidmore students come play and dance. 00:36:31- Flurry more about dance. 00:37:27- Would never consider moving. Saratoga has a nice community feel for the Flurry. 00:38:34- Only dancing and music art forms. 00:41:01- Flurry unique, has beginning and experienced dancers. Organization needs to keep more experienced dancers around for this experience. 00:43:18- End. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 43 minutes Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Colin Liscord Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/12/2016 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Guay Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/1/2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. The Flurry Festival Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS 113A: Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College Description An account of the resource Oral History interview with John Guay, president, musician and dancer of the Flurry Festival. Guay talks about how the Festival has changed over the years and the problems they have today. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Colin Liscord Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga Springs -- Flurry Festival -- History Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original Recording wav file. 16 bit 44.1KHz Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 12/1/16 oral history https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8bf985724d4cbdd8cabcfdc04440301f.jpg b1858738feacce97cbe9ef03da28c89c https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/927357b49e8def38608dad5e360999fc.mp3 af9a9d36a298344fefa7f1073ac0b79f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Flurry Festival Description An account of the resource The Flurry Festival is a three day music and dance Festival that takes place in Saratoga Springs in February. The festival holds workshops, performances, dances, and jam sessions in the city center and throughout the town. The Flurry first started as a dance festival for contra dancing but has expanded to musicians and spans all genres of music and dance as well as encompassing family friendly events such as storytelling. Language A language of the resource English Subject The topic of the resource The Flurry Festival Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Davies, Clara-Sophia Daly, Dustin Foote, Amanda Muir, Tess Olcott, Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording wav file, 16 bit 44.1 khz Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tess Olcott Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Kirk Location The location of the interview Arthur Zankel Music Building, Room 325 at Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58 minutes Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Tess Olcott Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/12/2016 Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview Interviewee: John Kirk Interviewer: Tess Olcott Location of Interview: Zankel Music Building, Room 325 Date of Interview: 12/2/2016 00:00:00 Header 00:00:18 Introduction – Born in New Finland, Canada, father in the Air force so grew up around the world. Moved to the states when he was 11. Grew up in turbulent times. 00:01:32 The 1960s were a time of great music, his sisters music collection got him started in music, and she taught him guitar. He got his own guitar at age 9. It was organic from there, self-taught. In college he got his first banjo for $40, led to listening to more banjo recordings which had mandolin and fiddle so he learned those also. 00:4:47 Came to Skidmore when wife started teaching banjo, still teaches in Vermont – music history and instrumental music, has been teaching for 9 years at Skidmore. Loves teaching college students because of their enthusiasm, likes to teach how to learn music. Being able to teach and having students show appreciation gives great joy. In the 1950's you could not study jazz because of its stigma, enjoys seeing the growth of music. 00:10:21Playing in a group near Albany and was asked to play in the Flurry Festival at a junior high school. Calls contra dancing while playing the fiddle. The festival was on a much smaller scale. It was 1987, the first year it started. 00:12:30 Calling dancing is very common in traditional music and many international dances. In America, it started with dancing masters. There was different organized dances for English, Irish, etc. that colonists brought here. Masters would travel around calling dances, still happens today. The tradition is held. There are several different formations and music types. There is a huge contra dancing society, one of the main reasons for the Flurry. Explains how contra dancing works. Recent Flurry now have gender free dances. 00:18:12 Changes to the Flurry after the move – More space, more variety, more performers, more people. All new dances, new workshops, new instruments. Talks about each new dance, especially international dances. Having it in the middle of winter brings people out and about. 00:22:21 Going to the flurry – overwhelming, sounds from everywhere in every move. Explains the process of looking at a program and deciding which events to go to because there are so many events, you have to plan ahead or else you may miss something amazing. Endless opportunities even for beginners. Always something to do throughout the whole weekend. Young people people now outnumber the people who have been going for years. 00:27:36 Being part of the community – people that go that he plays with that he has known for 40 years. Great to get to visit with old friends. It is always fun to go to the big sessions where a lot of things come together. 00:29:22 How the younger generation effects the feel of the festival – Higher energy level, great to see the change in music. There are always new ways of playing music. Seeing new innovative ways of playing music. 00:32:37 – Big changes to the festival – change happens gradually, but seeing all new forms of international music is exciting. Sometimes get so caught up in appreciating the music and don't notice all of the change until later. Contra dance is still the big social dance. At the very first flury, the danced the finish write off of the gym floor, including the logo. 00:35:34 Doing the festival with wife is priceless. They get to do all of the events together is always fun. 00:36:20 Favorite things to go to at the Festival – Loves the impromptu sessions in the hallway, the percussive dance, and several of the international dances. Went on a tour around the world and got used to hearing music in a new way. 00:38:56 The changing community – mostly in numbers. Incredible population. Diversity has also increased. Especially with gender. Also talks about Irish set dancing. People are coming from farther away, the social media presence is expanding. They have a house full every year which has turned into a tradition. 00:41:53 Affect on Saratoga – Had to battle for space every year. Main street and downtown businesses have been really supportive. Brings in a lot of people to the city. 00:43:20 Other traditions – At the end of the festival, the next conference is a Baptist gospel revival conference. People at flurry are all tired and a mess by the end and the Baptist group is all dressed very nicely. Its funny to compare the two. People make friends very quickly at the Festival. Political, social, plans and networking talked about. There are struggles too, but they all disappear post partum 00:46:37 Other challenges – Staying hydrated and nourished. Trying to get everywhere. Deciding where to go. Very few artistic problems 00:47:59 Favorite memory/story - Lots of favorite things, playing with legendary mandolin players and Peter Davis. Every percussive dance performance is worth seeing. To be a part of the final dance on stage in the big band. 00:52:18 What advice would you give – Print out a schedule and highlight what you want to do. Look forward to it and fear nothing. Fear not. Go to the dances and try to participate. Stay hydrated and dress in layers. 00:55:05 Favorite workshop – percussive dance festival, or funny songs and sing along. Maybe a yoga class! Come to the festival – it’s a great tradition. 00:58:12 End of interview Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Kirk Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/02/2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore-Saratoga Memory Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available DS 113A: Storytelling Interviewing, Skidmore College Description An account of the resource Oral History interview with John Kirk, musician and contra dance instructor for The Flurry Festival. Talks about the changes to the festival that have occurred over the years in terms of audience, music types and dance styles. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tess Olcott Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Original recording 16 bit 44.1KHz Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 12/2/2016 Subject The topic of the resource Saratoga Springs -- Flurry Festival -- History John Kirk oral history The Flurry Festival https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/dcb61cfdcd591c5a4f4145048708d5a0.mp4 1eca5fc8de8e2dd6b6243964fb7666b8 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/baa9ad1fa97eb105ca85e6ca42fdc573.pdf 5425754deb8de780c450d0b7c3f6befa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dawson Aitken Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Scherer Location The location of the interview Zoom (Saratoga County) Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Dawson Aitken Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 05/05/2021 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Scherer https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8f70124767d172aa3e17c690b500df47.jpg bc04b252f635d2b92efea293f5de4f46 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f6331293f1129a858107fdae8e9bd203.m4a 0cca97607c25e906806d1295487a4703 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6482c638bef5b2281ec0f2094a24b280.pdf 50c34ea47498d565ca1efc2238ff5461 PDF Text Text Jonathan Zeidan ‘12 Interview Log June 6, 2017 00:00:00 Graduated in 2012 00:00:12 Double Majored in Business and Economics and Double Minored in Spanish and Honors 00:00:19 Involved in Student Government and Integrity Board 00:00:30 Lives in San Francisco, from Bay Area 00:00:41 Worked in for Kaiser Permanente and does internal consulting 00:01:07 Will get NBA in Fall at Northwester Kellogg School of Business 00:01:40 London Freshman at Skidmore, went recently traveling in Europe 00:02:02 Went to New Orleans with friends from Skidmore 00:03:00 Still involved with friends and network, core friends, friends I work with 00:03:20 Help other Skidmore alum with jobs 00:03:40 First time back at Skidmore 00:05:00 Student Government story, political discussions. Occupy Wall Street began, 00:05:40 For an Occupy Skidmore event, put on Throughbread costume 00:06:50 Started Thoroughthreads, an ironic humor clothing company with friends 00:07:12 Developed a business plan through major and worked with 5 local businesses 00:10:00 Terrence Blanchard spoke at Graduation 00:10:20 Blanchard was part of Freshman reading for Scribner Seminar 00:10:30 Spoke for Senior Class Gift at graduation 00:11:20 Intro to Business Class is memorable, MB107 with Professor D’abate 00:11:40 First time realized he was smart 00:12:20 Became an MB107 coach 00:12:51 Took a ballet class: Mind, Body & Spirit 00:15:03 Doesn’t miss small beds in dorms 00:15:50 Misses having friends that encourage you to do well and be well 00:16:30 Misses comradery in D-Hall (Dining Hall) 00:17:31 Notice physical changes on campus (ADA compliant walk way) 00:18:45 When a freshman, tried to absorb everything 00:20:00 Used stipend in London 00:21:15 Being Student Government President was meaningful as leader of peers 00:23:50 People come together when it “matters” in terms of political activism 00:24:30 Tensions regarding race relations 00:27:00 Students are transient � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Kira Hastings '17 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jonathan Zeidan Location The location of the interview Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rebecca Stern Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 26/06/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jonathan Zeidan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 06, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (eng.) Business & Management SGA SGA President Student Leader https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/57d08e4ad6cb7545ba35b102bfb00734.jpg 132511ed2d207cc2661dc8fca6bce113 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4ac22e1dc72aa54d332218874d5a56b3.mp4 14382406027d8f68e4a8495dc6adcabc https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9e4fc6a346942127c16d3bffd5febb6e.pdf 1dc29cea790eb1479789ea644f4de798 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b21e4254d348eadaee87971336d82f0c.pdf a80176cf039b0bd061cacc92885cbaa7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Samantha Murphy Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joe Levy Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library, Saratoga Springs N.Y Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Samantha Murphy Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit Nov. 1, 2019 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Levy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 26, 2019 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Samantha Murphy, '23 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Joseph Levy Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource This is an interview with Joesph Levy, a photographer who moved to Saratoga in the 70's. He is known for is photography at the Saratoga Race Track, and also ran for state senate with the Green Party. Levy has made an impact on the arts community in Saratoga and is keeping the Green party alive for future generations. In this interview, you will learn about his life growing up, his life in Saratoga and his work in politics. Arts Photographer Green Party Hyde Collection Photographer Photography Saratoga Arts Saratoga Arts Workshop Saratoga County Saratoga County Green Party Saratoga County Politics Saratoga Race Course St Yaddow Track Photographer https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/84ac9e5ae5ca46415795b171e7a58e91.jpg 029f35487196f0dcd4d1f8f4259573ba https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/389af031aec1842d6123fb59b21c962a.mp3 8e24dc5b61fdd6b58c81ba06f8f146a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Abrams, Alison Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Juan Sanchez Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Juan Sanchez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3/24/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Description An account of the resource Juan talked about what it was like to be a Latino male at Skidmore and Saratoga. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. Juan is a sophomore at Skidmore and spoke a great deal about his pride as a Dominican which he truly connected to when he came to Skidmore more and was exposed to the othernessd posed by the majority white school and town. He spoke of his family in Brooklyn and their expectations for him as a first generation college student. His binationalism came up as well, Juan pointing out that although born in the US, he does not fully feel welcome within the country and upon visits to The Dominican Republic found that he was again looked down on as a yankee. To deal with his fear he found solidarity with Skidmore's Raices and spoke of wanting to give a voice to latinx on campus and in the future in government.  Dominican Republic family Gender Latinx Saratoga Skidmore College student https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9534a0f26186987f52f37bd90cec75f0.JPG 8163c5de0429967e395497e7caf1648a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/455843183ad46b015a69d5207137ec7d.mp3 685e3c4f64179e380e1e7c26a076b200 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cd50e1083b7b86078f53e55d88fa4a4f.pdf 37ca0204ae59b643be97a37f55a10682 PDF Text Text Interview with Judy Halstead by Sue Bender & Leslie Meechem (recording tech), Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, October 17, 2025. SUE BENDER: This is Sue Bender interviewing Judy Halstead for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project. It's October 17, 2025 and we are in the Scribner Library on the Skidmore campus. Welcome, Judy. Glad to have you with us. JUDY HALSTEAD: Thank you, Sue. SB: Just for starters, could you just begin by telling us, if you would, when and where you were born and briefly describe your childhood? JH: Sure. They're sort of different questions. I was actually born in North Tonawanda, New York, but we left there when I was two, so I don't have any memory. It doesn't have anything to do with how I grew up, really. Then we moved to Schenectady, not a very good part of town. My dad was a janitor at the main plant in GE. Neither of my parents really went to college. One of my parents was definitely an orphan and the other one had, had one of her parents die young. They were married the day after my mother turned 18. I was born three years later. Anyway, then we moved to the village of Scotia, which was a delightful place. I really loved living in the village of Scotia. I played outside, played outside. I was a pretty freerange kid, played out, wandered around, played kick ball in the dead end. Then we moved, trying to do increasingly better schools, although I think Scotia was good, to the Glenville area, but it was Burnt Hills school district, and I had a dog by then. My dog and I really wandered around. I played with my dog a lot. We wandered around in the woods and one of the things we did a lot of was follow streams. One of the first days I was there, this actually could or could not turn up later, but I followed a stream a very, very long ways, till after dark, and we had not lived there very long, so that was kind of interesting. I think playing outside was most of it. Oh, I measured the stream behind my house for about at least a year. I have to find the records. I think I might still have them in the basement, about how deep the stream behind my house was, about once a month for a couple of years. SB: A scientist already. So, could you talk a little bit about your educational journey? JH: So, never got too far, graduating from Burnt Hills, never got too far from here. I went to SUNY Binghamton, raised more than half of the money for that myself, working both during summers and, two or three jobs sometimes, working at SUNY Binghamton. Then I went to RPI, graduate school at RPI, in physical chemistry. It was very unusual for there to be a woman there. There were hardly any women. There was one woman who was a year older than I. Well, she was a year ahead of me in class. She was actually three years older than I. At RPI, but it was pretty unusual to have women, I think even more so in physical chemistry than the other areas. Page 1 of 11 �So working in the lab, I didn't know things that I would be later teaching my students routinely in the labs and making sure that they knew clockwise is lockwise and all kinds of things about the physical world that, I used to take my soldering home in my purse because I didn't like it when the guys in lab made fun of me when I was soldering things. So, the physical chemistry is applications of physics and math to chemical systems. I was interested in small molecules and atoms, vacuum systems, electronic equipment to use to measure the spectroscopy and other factors dealing with reactions happening in gas phases. I actually ended up doing more with atoms, even than small molecules. That was pretty much my PhD work. Then I worked at the health department at long range transport of pollutants. SB: So how did you find your way to Skidmore? JH: Just a quick addition there in between after working at the Health Department, completely different stuff. It was still gas phase, but it was solids, long range transport of pollutants. I'd always been interested in teaching and there was an opening at Russell Sage. I worked at Russell Sage for two years and then I took a visiting assistant professorship at Williams for three years. Then I applied for the job at Skidmore. At the time that I was at Williams, I was married to my boy’s dad, who had started a company in Troy and had at least 30 or 40 employees and the employees had mortgages and things and I didn't think I could wander too far away if I wanted David to ever see his dad. So, I saw the job opening at Skidmore and I applied for it. When I applied for the Williams job, that was the only job I applied for. When I applied for the Skidmore job, it was absolutely the only job I applied for. If I hadn't been hired by January 15, I had applications ready for Ithaca College and Connecticut College, but I was hired by Skidmore. SB: And what year was that? Do you remember? JH: Yes, of course. I remember a lot of things. I was interviewed on December 2, 1986 and I started at Skidmore in August and/or September of '87. SB: So describe the position that you took at Skidmore and the work that you did. JH: I arrived, starting to set up my research lab in August 1987. Classes started in September 1987. I was a physical chemist. I taught Physical Chemistry 1, Physical Chemistry 2. There's labs with physical chemistry. I taught general chemistry. I also taught a Liberal Studies IV course, and I also had undergraduate research students. I'll tell you a little bit about both of those experiences. I had already worked at two small, liberal arts colleges at this point; Russell Sage for two years and Williams for three years. I thought that a lot of things that I brought to my own life and to Skidmore were really from, primarily from Williams. A lot of people, including me, thought that for many years. Thinking about this interview a little bit, I realize that there was a lot of things I was already doing. Undergraduate research for example, when I was at Russell Sage. I'm not 100% sure where I had the idea of what Page 2 of 11 �undergraduate research was or how I formed a very firm idea about that. Williams certainly had influence, but it wasn't always Williams. But I came to Skidmore with a pretty firm idea of what sort of institution I wanted to be at, a little curious about to what extent that was going to work for Skidmore because it was the only job I applied for. My husband at the time had a business in Troy, but he did agree to move to Saratoga, which was very important to me because he was out of town. When I was at Williams, I was commuting from Troy to Williams and that didn't work very well. It actually worked really well, but I didn't want to do it again, not for a tenure track position. Some of the things, just a quick little summary of some of the things that I envisioned for what I wanted in my life and what I envisioned for Skidmore's life were a strong student/faculty collaborative undergraduate research program, which included some very specific things. Rigor within physical chemistry and general chemistry was particularly interesting and I also taught analytical chemistry. In fact, in my first 27 years, I taught 27 different courses. Also, I had a very definite interest in environmental science, which I had come to understand recently, really what I needed to be interested in and knowledgeable about was environmental studies and I was starting to understand the difference between environmental studies and environmental science, and that a lot of other people didn't understand those things. Then I wanted Skidmore to have more, especially at that point, in the way of undergraduate, student/faculty collaborative undergraduate research, including and most especially full-time for students during the summers. One of the reasons that I wasn't trying to set up a lab during the summer was, I already had summer research students at Williams that were funded. I had a grant from the American Chemical Society Petroleum Research Fund that I got when I was at Williams, but grants, typically with the permission of both institutions, are transferrable. A lot of the equipment that I was bought at that grant that I was using at Williams was transferrable, so Williams' people signed off on all of that. But I had students for the summer at Williams, and also, the Skidmore daycare center opened the first day of classes or the day before the first day of classes or something like that, in '87. I hadn't even thought that a place could not have a childcare center honestly, because Williams had had a very old childcare center at that point. I'm not sure how old. My first year at Williams, my older child was born, and my first year at Skidmore, my second child was born. Anyway, they're wonderful. Tearful. Moving on. So, I was moving equipment into Skidmore and also moving our house from Troy to Saratoga Springs. So I worked with my students up to, I don't know, the first or second week of August and then I had a couple of weeks where I was moving things from Troy, I'm actually not remembering moving the house that much, but I'm remembering moving the lab. Maybe we got somebody to move us. That would be great. But my son and I would wake up in Troy and I would take him to daycare and I'd work with my Williams students. Then my Williams students would, in August, put things in my Subaru. Then I would pick David up at daycare around 3:00 or 3:30 and then we would drive to Skidmore and unload things and set up my lab. I already had gotten keys to my lab and keys to my office and I already knew where the chemistry department kept carts that I could move equipment on. But some of this was very heavy equipment and I Page 3 of 11 �had to move it from my car onto the cart and then from the cart onto the lab benches in my lab. There was absolutely nobody in Dana Science Center except my two-year-old, David, and me, and David Domozych. So, David Domozych was highly valued. I showed up maybe three times and knew that I could find David Domozych upstairs and we all moved my stuff into my lab. David, my son, was two. I had an ion chromatograph, which is pretty routine now, but was a bigger deal in '87. One of his early words as a two-year old was chromatograph. So, I discovered pretty early, there was a kind of a vibe during the interviews that there was hopefulness that this vision I had for someplace that I would work was consistent with what somebody, somewhere at Skidmore wanted. I didn't entirely get, it wasn't entirely clear that it was that many people in my department. Maybe Paul Walter, Vasantha Narisimahn had done a little bit, some undergraduate research, particularly during the academic year, but nobody'd ever done any research during the summer. Nobody had ever applied for grants. But I think that I started to really get the big picture better when I met David Porter [then Skidmore’s President] because David Porter definitely had this interdisciplinary vision, but also a very clear vision of what student/faculty collaborative research was going to mean for people in the natural sciences nationally in the coming years; at there was, everybody in the natural sciences in at least a three-year position, and that was one of the reasons I was a three-year position is, they weren't, Williams didn't think that they could really expect somebody to be doing really good quality research in less than three years. So they were hiring visiting professors at three-year shots. Everybody was doing undergraduate research with the expectation of publishing in the same sort of journal you would publish in at a university, which really requires a summer experience. That was the very beginning, the late '70s, early '80s, middle '80s was the beginning of an organization named Council on Undergraduate Research, which Stuart Crampton in physics at Williams was very instrumental in. Probably one of the other really big instrumental people, maybe more so probably, was a guy named Jerry Mohrig at Carleton, who was David Porter's next-door neighbor, I think. He was certainly his neighbor. I think he might have been his next-door neighbor. So David Porter was a musician and classics professor, but he had all kinds of visions for Skidmore. We all really liked David Porter a lot. But this vision of very rigorous, but truly collaborative research with students, but during the school year, keeping it going, but for the students to really understand the depth of what they were doing, that they had to be working summers. I came with a grant a year later. Ray Giguere came with a grant. Ray Giguere also already had, was the second person that had the kind of experience that I had already had in chemistry. David Domozych was already here. In '87-‘88, David Domozych and I, with the help or the guidance, or maybe they were doing it more, of somebody in the administration, and I'm not sure who it was, I think it might have been David Seligman, wrote a grant, Keck Foundation maybe, I'm not sure, for a student/faculty collaborative research to be funded by the college. So I had my ASC, PRF money. Ray had some external grant, but the college began to give grants for summer research to other people. I think that David Porter had an awful lot to do with that. I think David Porter also had a lot to do with just the nurturing of interdisciplinarity within the college. So, we had LS [Liberal Studies] I, II, III, and IV Page 4 of 11 �back then. At my interview, I was told that at some point, I was going to be expected to teach a LS IV course, which was, I can't remember exactly what the title was, but had something to do with sciences. It was supposed to be some sort of link between other disciplines and the sciences. At Williams, I was teaching a very upper-level quantum mechanics class, but I was also teaching an environmental science class. More importantly, there was a guy by the name of Tom Jorling, which you guys might never have heard of, but he had a bachelor's undergraduate degree in biology and a law degree, and he had worked quite a bit at different governmental positions as a lawyer, politician, administrator person. Then he worked, for several years, as a tenure track faculty member who got tenure at Williams in environmental studies. Then, I think it was Jimmy Carter who appointed him in a position at EPA and he was back to working in the government. Then he was back at Williams as a distinguished professor of environmental studies at Williams. When I was there, Tom Jorling was chair of environmental studies. I would go to environmental studies meetings that I didn't understand what they were completely. I linked it with science, environmental science because I'd been actually teaching an environmental science course collaboratively with somebody at Russell Sage already. And I was teaching an environmental science course at Williams. But I go to meetings and it's pretty dominated by philosophers, English professors, economists, and Tom Jorling, who's a lawyer. Well, one of the dominant scientists in the group was a guy by the name of Bill Moomaw, who was spending a few years at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, where he started a PhD program in environmental studies. That's who I was replacing. That's why I wasn't seeing a presence from chemistry. And there was one biologist and one geologist that were involved. I started going to Tom Jorling's course, which I think actually had the symbol ES100, and it was very law, politics, economics. I'm sure that's the first time I ever heard about the tragedy of the commons, would have been in Tom Jorling's course, sometime before '87. So spring of '87, I guess, while I was still at Williams, I wrote my Liberal Studies IV proposal based on partly what I was teaching in environmental science and partly what Tom Jorling was teaching in environmental studies. It flew through curriculum committee, which I'd been hearing about for many years, because that wasn't really typical. So when I came in, I already had that approved and I probably taught it that year. But I gave it the title of my environmental science course, which was “the environment and the physical sciences”. Students were very happy with it, but I didn't get great enrollment the first year or two. Then somebody in the administration said, "Course is great. You just need to change the title." The title of the book I was using was Environmental Concerns in Perspective. So, I changed the title to “Environmental Concerns in Perspective”. Environmental Concerns in Perspective has been full ever since, probably still is because ES100 has that title still, I think. Then John Thomas asked me if I'd be interested in teaching a course on Loughberry Lake, if I'm not getting too ahead of you. So, John Thomas and I invented what was really the first, before ES100, ES100 was my LS IV course. SB: ES meaning environmental studies? Page 5 of 11 �JH: Yeah, thank you very much, Sue. ES meaning environmental studies. So, we started an ES105 class, leaving space for something that might happen eventually below ES105, but that was primarily on the chemistry and geology of Loughberry Lake, the drinking water supply for Saratoga Springs. But we also had people from the city talking to us about its role in the life of the city and a little bit about politics and economics, but it was largely chemistry and geology. And then at some point, the students in my LS IV class asked for some sort of program that was environmental studies, so I started writing a proposal for the environmental studies major with Ken Johnson, the other senior person in the geology department. It actually went to the faculty floor while I was on pre-tenure sabbatical, but Ken and I met a lot about it and rewrote things a lot. Around, it was passed around '90, maybe '91, for the environmental studies minor. The first student that graduated with an environmental studies minor was a chemistry major by the name of Cheryl Silbert, who married another Skidmore alum Schnitzer, and Cheryl Silbert-Schnitzer has been a full professor at Stone Hill for quite a while. A really long time, actually. Then the self-determined majors started getting flooded by students who wanted to be environmental studies majors. I had a very significant teaching load. There were 105 kids in general chemistry. I just wasn't up, for a while, in trying to make an environmental studies major. I'm sure that some of you realize that to have a major, you also have to get it through the New York State Board of Regents. It's not just the faculty floor. So, I really wasn't up for that for a while, but the self-determined majors committee was really leaning on me for years to get an environmental studies major. At some point, there was an absolutely spectacular woman hired, really initially as a faculty spouse, late '90sish, Karen Kellogg. She was initially hired in biology. She was more interested in environmental studies. I was overwhelmingly swamped with environmental studies stuff. Also, Roy Ginsberg and I applied for a Department of Education grant for international affairs and environmental studies issues across the curriculum and I was managing that for a couple of years, also. I didn't have a teaching load reduction for being director of environmental studies for many, many years. I still had more teaching load than some of my male colleagues. So, Karen was a really big help. With Karen's help, we got out the proposal for the environmental studies major in, I think about 2001, roughly. Of course, it's environmental studies and sciences now. So, I continued to have undergraduate research all along the way. I was doing that initial lab I set up was gas phase kinetics and spectroscopy. Mostly all hand-built glass vacuum work, all entirely hand-built electronics that I designed. None of the chemistry majors were particularly interested in that, but some of the physics majors were sometimes. One summer, to be able to spend the money, I got other grants. I got two other grants, big, substantial grants just for my research, not counting the college student/faculty collaborative research one or the environmental studies student/faculty collaborative research one. So, one summer, I hired RPI students because I needed to spend the money and I needed to get work done and our chemistry students weren't really that interested. But I was having massive numbers of students come to me that wanted to do environmental fieldwork, which I'd done a little bit of. Not even counting the time that I Page 6 of 11 �took the measurements in the stream in the back of my yard, I had also done a little bit of fieldwork in other ways. So, for several years, I was doing both, but with the teaching load I had, I was a single parent. By '91 or '92, I was a single parent. It was actually easier, in my case, to be a single parent than to not be a single parent. The younger one had a lot of health problems. So, there was a variety of reasons why it was easier for me to supervise my environmental science students. I went out in the field with them. I learned, there's a lot of different reasons I knew how to do fieldwork, but I'd learned how to do the fieldwork. I'd learned how to treat samples when we got back to the lab, but I wasn't building equipment from scratch. I wasn't having to repair and maintain equipment that had all been electronics and vacuum gas work that was all built from scratch, either. Also, somewhere along the line, I'd have to think harder than I am right now about the date, the college started the Skidmore Analytical Instrumentation Lab (SAIL) and we hired Lisa Quimby. Anybody know Lisa Quimby? You guys don't know about Lisa Quimby? Well, initially, there was a big grant that I was not one of the ones that wrote, thank you. Appreciate that, that was great. The chemistry department, but there were some people in the social sciences that used it some and there were some other people in the natural sciences that used it some, too. When I use the word science, I'm using the word science that I understand natural science to be, and if you would like to give that whatever interpretation you would like, that's fine. I understand, lots of people could have long conversations on that, but I'm using the word science and the sciences as natural sciences. So, the SAIL lab, we got all sorts of analytical instrumentation. I was able to use a lot of the instrumentation I'd got for analyzing samples from my gas, that I took from my gas phase apparatus into analyzing liquids. Gradually, my research evolved from being gas phase kinetics and spectroscopy (where I got publications with student co-authors, but it was a really time-consuming and difficult process) to supervising students that were doing fieldwork. There's a little while in between there that we also were doing basic analytical chemistry research. Analytical chemistry is the science of how much of what is where basically. Almost everybody could use their own analytical chemist; physicians, lawyers, everybody. How much of what is where is a really important question. I also taught analytical chemistry in the long list of courses I taught. So, I had some basic analytical chemistry equipment in my research lab. I shut down the vacuum stuff. Lisa and other people started using some of my equipment. Some of my research students were using more of the SAIL equipment. If the students needed to have the mode that an instrument was changed in changed or they hadn't, I pretty much would train the students on the instruments. But if there was an issue, something needed to be changed, then Lisa Quimby is, was, and still is director of the, an employee of the college, a staff that's director of the Skidmore Analytical Instrumentation Lab, SAIL. Eventually, as I trained groups of students, they could go out into the field themselves. So that was great. I could actually accomplish something in my office. I had that transition. I had a bunch of papers on Journal of Chemical Education, including some that were pretty hard core physical chemistry, some that were about undergraduate research and how institutions can nurture undergraduate research. One that's kind of a basic quantum mechanics thing. But the last paper I published was about Page 7 of 11 �the relationship between 13 water chemistry variables in seven or eight different streams that are tributaries of the Kayaderosseras and land use patterns. I don't know anything about how to measure land use patterns, but again, the College is becoming increasingly interdisciplinary. We had the GIS lab. A few of my students had taken GIS courses and were really good at it and could determine, sometimes with the professional's help a little bit, but generally from the courses that they had had, determine what the land use pattern was for the areas that we were doing our water sampling. SB: So all of your fieldwork was centered on water, right? JH: All of my fieldwork after I left the Health Department was centered on water, yeah. Which I was also a white-water paddler and a flat-water paddler and, for a while, a white-water instructor, American Canoe Association certified white water instructor. So really fond of water. SB: Well, Judy, in 2023, there was a symposium honoring you and your colleague, Ray Giguere. JH: That was really awesome. That was pretty cool. SB: Can you tell us a little bit about the genesis of the symposium? JH: Sure. I'm just now thinking maybe that is one tiny silver lining on the cloud of COVID because we didn't have, when I actually retired June 1, 2020. So I taught that last semester, including a general chemistry lab that first COVID semester. I divided it up. I was in phased retirement, I'm sorry. I'll get back to your question, Sue, if that's okay. Just give me a minute or two here. It works into the genesis of that symposium. My general chemistry lab, I divided into three sections; the East Coast, the West Coast, and the middle. Because general chemistry lab met from 8:00 to 9:30 on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I could not reasonably expect that California students were going to get up at 5:00 in the morning to come to a remote Zoom general chemistry lab. So I did everything three times that last half of that semester. But I retired June 2020, so there wasn't really, chemistry and environmental studies have been working together and have this awesome retirement party. I was really looking forward to it. Sometimes you can end up with two or three or more retirement parties, depending on the circumstances. I really wanted those retirement parties. Time passes. Oh, well. What happened? And then, I assume it was Juan Navea and/or Karen Kellogg's idea. I really have no idea. Probably Juan and then he talked to Karen or talked to somebody. Then, a couple of years after I retired, I have a hard time saying that I retired because I tend to say, "I graduated," rather than, "I retired." But a couple of years after I retired, Ray Giguere also retired. Ray and I were really, Vasantha Narasimhan had done a little bit of undergraduate research, but in terms of this idea, the students really need to be working 40 hours a week for at least 10 weeks during the summer really started that with Ray and I. Then you really, they have enough depth of understanding of what they're doing to be able to continue to do things for 10 hours a week during the school year and actually accomplish something, but it's very hard for them to get to that point without that. Page 8 of 11 �Because of the pandemic, it was seen that Ray and I were graduating or retiring or summarizing our careers somehow at around the same time. We both kept in touch with a lot of students. I probably didn't have as many students as he did. I'd had an awful lot of students that took ES100 from me. I didn't say, when I was saying that environmental studies program got approved as a minor that eventually, a core course for it was the LS IV course, but we had to un-LS IV it because there was waiting lists just from the ES students, but that became ES100. So, I taught a lot of students from ES100, but physical chemistry tends to not be that big a class. Analytical chemistry tends to not be that big a class. I taught environmental studies junior seminar and a few other things, but they tend to not be really huge classes, whereas, Ray was teaching organic chemistry, which is a much bigger class. But between the students that we had in classes and students that we had in our research program, we both had stayed in touch with a lot of students, and Juan and other people in the department were aware of that and they just wrote all these students and said, "Let's do this." It was really amazing. We had really, I'd have to look back and consult Juan or look at my notes or something, 60 or more students that came for the weekend. We had student presentations. We had presentations by other people on Friday, but student presentations all day on Saturday. The student presentations were awesome. They were all about the work that they were doing at that point in time in their careers. One person had been e-mailing me and emailing me and just couldn't get through to me, but he was one of my very first students and he was e-mailing me, Sue could probably appreciate this, maybe. He was e-mailing me at halstead@scott@skidmore.edu. Scott was a computer that was unplugged a very long time ago, so he wasn't getting through to me. He's at NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology, which I still sometimes think of as the National Bureau of Standards. But the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which he was great. Everybody was great. But they all tied their work back to things that they had done at Skidmore. That was really a terrific event. SB: I can imagine. JH: Yeah. SB: What have you been doing since you graduated from Skidmore? JH: Since I graduated from Skidmore? Do you have a minute for me to tell you something else interdisciplinary I think was important about Skidmore? SB: Sure. JH: So when the Scribner seminars started, I couldn't do my LS IV course, which a lot of people would, because my LS IV course was ES100 and was taught by a lot of people. So, I had to come up with something else. So, I did this course, and we all know by now that I really like water. So, I did a course that was Water: Society, Science, and the Arts. It would change from year to year. It really worked best if I had something else to tie it to that was within the college. Page 9 of 11 �So, the first one, which was awesome, it was so great, was Caroline Anderson was directing the play, Enemy of the People by Ibsen. We also went to, my class and I also went to a whole bunch of, oh, God. I can't think of his name. There was a Travolta movie about water pollution problem in Woburn, Massachusetts. I can't think of it, and Erin Brokovich, and there's all these other movies, too, but mainly the sort of scaffolding for that class was Caroline Anderson's working with her students presenting An Enemy of the People. My students were very familiar with the play before we saw the play. Then we had, it happens in a little town. There's a water pollution episode. There's the mayor and the doctor, and people have different opinions on it. My students became, chose to be different characters in the town that weren't in the play. They met a couple times with Caroline's students. Caroline must have directed that because I would have no idea how to do that, and had interaction between the characters that were in the play and the characters that were not in the play. And then all of their writing assignments were letters to the editor. And another, I'll just tell you about one other one. Another one was the 400th year that Hudson sailed up the Hudson the Tang had the exhibit on the Hudson River School and Ian Berry and Tom Lewis put together this book. The people who have chapters in that, who have little essays in that book were asked to comment on, to present an essay that somehow interacted with a particular piece of art. The piece of art that I had was Seneca Ray Stoddard's picture of Lake Tear of the Clouds, which is often thought of as the source of the Hudson. But, of course, now we know, I'm sure Sue knows that the source of the Hudson is the entire Hudson watershed, not just Lake Tear of the Clouds. So, my essay was about that. I had this one little story, which I'll tell you in a second, that Tom Lewis really wanted me to put in the beginning. I felt like it logically belonged someplace else, because I talked about the amount of flow of the Hudson as you came down the watershed, as all the tributaries came into the harbor. So, I wanted this little story to go in the flow as appropriate. Tom Lewis kept saying, "It's up to you, but I think the story should be moved up earlier." But it was, when I was nine and we had first moved to Scotia-Glenville, my dog and I followed the stream. I went to a stream, which I followed a stream. Then I get to a point where I got across Route 50, not too far from Mayfair Center, if you know where that is. I'm like, "What would my mother think about me and my dog crossing it?" There's no light here or anything. I'm nine years old and I just moved here, but we crossed it, and then all the different things that we found as we followed that stream. That's in that, but that tributary, that's a tributary of the Indian, which is a tributary of the Mohawk, which is a tributary of the Hudson. So that's in there, too. Oh, okay. I've been trying to paddle since I retired. SB: But I have one follow-up question about that. I believe I saw something on the Skidmore website that you did a dialog with an artist whose work was in the Hudson show. JH: Yes. I only vaguely remember that. That's true. SB: Okay. Page 10 of 11 �JH: I took my students. I had two or three different classes that I took kayaking on the upper Hudson also and I took some students to visit dams. They didn't enjoy the dams as much as they did Enemy of the People or the Tang. I don't understand that. My husband and I both really like dams. It's one of the things we have in common. SB: Okay. So anything else, looking back on your Skidmore career, that you'd like to touch on? JH: No, I'm willing to go on to retirement now. SB: Okay. JH: Yeah. I'm not doing white water paddling, sadly, because I really have a lot of arthritis. The hiking that I'm doing is not as aggressive, but I'm still doing more modest hikes. I got here in time today after biking. So hiking, biking. Both of my children, but especially the younger one that lives in Maine, really wanted me to move to Maine for quite a few years. I really love the Adirondacks. I think somebody one time said something about my spreading my love of the outdoors to other students and faculty and I hope that's true, but I do really love the outdoors. People think Maine's so great, but not like the Adirondacks. I really love the Adirondacks and the Saratoga area, but we did end up getting a condo in Maine and we have a threeand-a-half-year-old granddaughter and a six-month-old grandson, so we're spending maybe a third of the time there. Oh, I can't believe I left out another thing I've done is, I've spent a lot of time being involved in the local Unitarian Universalist congregation, where I was a secretary for four and a half years. My husband, Johnathan Fieinberg and Dick Wilkinson and I spent an enormous amount of time over about five years redoing policy for the congregation. My husband and I are also somewhat involved in the Unitarian Universalist congregation first parish in Portland now, but hopefully more. The three-year-old, I think an important point you could make a conclusion on if you like is that our three-year-old granddaughter has now been canoeing with me three times this summer. SB: Thank you very much, Judy. This is delightful, to hear your recollections of your time at Skidmore. JH: It's delightful to see all of you. Page 11 of 11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sue Bender & Leslie Meechem Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Judy Halstead Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:23 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Judy Halstead Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 17, 2025 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource After receiving her PhD in physical chemistry from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI), Judy Halstead taught at Russell Sage and Williams Colleges before joining Skidmore’s Chemistry Department in 1986.  In addition to teaching general and analytical chemistry within her department, Halstead was an active participant in interdisciplinary programs.  In this interview she recalls her pivotal work for two major College initiatives: the development of Environmental Studies and the Summer Collaborative Research Program.  Both of these undertakings have had a lasting effect at the College and on our students, as attested to by the alumni symposium held in her honor upon her retirement in 2020. Halstead also reflects on some of the obstacles faced by women in the STEM disciplines. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a7e75766fdbe52280c48ade1a10d6f04.jpg cfaa27bdd6bdb2ff4770d57c92227d7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Latinx Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rojas, Isabel Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karina Gonzalez Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karina Gonzalez Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 4/5/17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available HI251C: History of Latinx in the U.S. Language A language of the resource English Abstract A summary of the resource. Karina Gonzalez is a first generation graduating Skidmore student, double majoring in Business and Sociology. Her mother migrated from the Dominican Republic and they currently live in Harlem, NYC along with her older brother two older sisters. In the following interview, Karina speaks to her fellow student, Isabel Rojas, about what it means to be a second generation Latina; together, they explore the complexities of her identity as an Afro Dominicana, as well as family dynamics, beauty, gender, and bi-nationality. Afro-Latinx Beauty Bi-nationality bkcultural culture Dominican Republic family Gender immigration Latinx New York City race Second Generation https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/034917791b0cc79ea4d81fc4785beead.jpg 1984d206379b318c2357509c28edcc10 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e91f90d5c7b1ce8036440bd286bd8b4a.mp3 cd65fd9b2fdd67078e6cc970a4ab0fc6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f88f1a8bf1f29c9298484ad7f9b96adc.pdf 64e6c1ee6cb066ac73f1e44618c7bd55 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Karl Broekhuizen Years at Skidmore: 1981 - 2005 Interviewer: Lynn Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: April 18, 2019 00:00:00 HEADER 00:00:27 Born and raised in Holley, New York; 52 people in high school graduating class. 00:00:54 Undergraduate - University of New Hampshire; MBA - University of Massachusetts. 00:01:17 As undergrad, worked in UNH controllers office in a junior accountant position. 00:01:37 Interest in working with new automated information and data processing plus management of not-for-profits, particularly colleges and universities. 00:02:50 Upon completing MBA, hired for a new position at U Mass supporting the graduate school in budget development and administration. 00:03:51 “The graduate school at U Mass at that time … mirrored … what a small college and university would be.” 00:04:26 Between 1967-1977, worked as Business Manager for U Mass Graduate School, U Mass Associate Budget Director, and Assistant Dean of Education (chief business person). 00:05:53 Next 5 years as Treasurer at Colby College, then to Skidmore. 00:06:42 On campus interview with, “… a group of thousands.” 00:09:03 One appeal of Skidmore: “…relative to the competition, Skidmore was a very young institution … opportunity for someone with a different perspective…” 00:09:58 Upon arriving September 1981, ”… annual audit had not been yet completed.” 00:12:11 Initial tasks included “…get to know the place and do some staffing.” 00:13:25 Also upon arriving, plans for a sports center were two-thirds done. 00:14:28 In 1981 the college was used to being under-resourced. 00:15:10 “Skidmore became what it was, and what it is today … because they were all invested in … the vision of this institution…” 00:16:15 “One of the things that we were able to do early on is … try to move our construction program up a notch or two in terms of quality, design, location.” 00:17:10 challenge of “…limestone ledge not very far below the surface. And most, if not all, of the early buildings are three feet higher in the air because it was less expensive to go up than to blast and go down.” 00:17:40 Range of building projects included a residence hall, Harder Hall, Starbuck Center and Barrett conversion into offices, Tisch learning center, the Tang, the Northwoods apartments, the Zankel, and additions to the library and the Case Center. 00:19:19 Changes were “a function of … recognizing a change in how curriculum was developed and delivered.” Also, “tremendous growth in terms of the number of employees.” 00:21:07 Worked with Joe Palamountain, David Porter, Jamienne Studley, Phil Glotzbach. 00:21:34 “Joe, in my opinion, saved this college … saw what needed to be done in terms of bringing this campus in this location to a meaningful presence, and I think he surrounded himself with … a great team, and was able to move forward.” 00:24:36 “[Joe] described … his leadership style as sort of a team approach or what he called a matrix management style … the president’s staff … met weekly around a table and discussed whatever the important issue was in each of our divisions, and decisions were made collectively.” �00:25:45 “…he would recommend to the board the hiring or appointment of the chief academic officer or the chief business officer or whatever, but the appointment was by the board. Deans were not. They reported to board appointed officers, and that worked well, I think, for the times.” 00:26:39 “…one instance … I needed fifty thousand dollars more than the preliminary budget figures … We all talked about it in the room and Dave Long, VP for external affairs, said, ‘I can help you with that. I’ll give you fifty thousand dollars out of my budget.’ No great hassle, no … infighting, we were part of a team.” 00:28:05 David Porter’s priorities were faculty and academic programming. “We would still have president’s staff meetings. He, pretty much, continued with the matrix style of operation…” 00:28:58 Phyllis was interim president during construction on the Tang. “I remember very clearly Phyllis being on the top of an excavator with one of the construction team’s people, coming around a grove of trees, in a hard hat…” 00:29:35 "Jamie was very different … it was much more one-on-one … more decisions got made in her office than in the conference room … different styles, and different times, as well.” 00:32:29 Phil “…was interested in knowing, housing-wise … of some of the things that we were doing in terms of bond issues, for instance, and things of that nature.” 00:33:19 Through his years at Skidmore, Broekhuizen appreciated the eclectic nature of Business Affairs. “I mean, we had dining services and post office and bookstores and computing centers and so forth and so on.” 00:33:44 “In terms of construction, the design process of the Tang was the most interesting to me.” 00:34:56 “… a teaching museum. It would be integrated into the curriculum of the college …” 00:36:38 Search committee narrowed field to three architects for Tad Kuroda and Broekhuizen to visit. “Traveling with Tad … was just an absolute joy. Both in terms of focus on the questions we were asking of the architect …, but also spending free time together. We went to a baseball game out in Los Angeles, for instance … I was the only white guy there. And Tad just tweaked me … ‘What’s it feel like to be a member of a minority group now?’ [laughs]. And it was all said in fun you know, in jest and so forth, but it was just a positive experience.” 00:38:41 Then each architect came to Skidmore to give presentations. “…we had a site picked out …Predock said no … if you want this to be integral to the campus you need to have it on a path where students go, they’ll be forced to go by it or better yet through it. And so he selected this site, made his point, and talked about it growing up out of the ground and it would have this limestone-like exterior and you could go through it or you could go over it, and it was just very very exciting. I mean, he had clearly done his homework.” 00:40:45 “When the search committee came to make its final recommendation, I think it was Predock hands down. I mean I cannot remember a dissenting voice there. And working with him and his colleague, the vendor contractor, was just a joy.” 00:42:12 Another high point was hiring Barbara Beck as the Human Resources officer. She created “… a comprehensive Human Resource function that helped department chairs and faculty with leadership issues and problem solving.” 00:43:21 Restructuring after Dave Marcell left led to the Computing Center reporting to Broekhuizen. Some had suggested it “…be split between academic computing and administrative computing … I kept saying, ‘No, we want one person to be responsible for both areas so there’d be better coordination and articulation of their vision and their role… I just did not want essentially the same general function, computing, … vying for the same resources…’ ” 00:47:00 Skidmore community well served by Business Affairs senior directors. �00:48:03 “…Bob Jarvis, who did a wonderful job, … when he retired … ultimately, I decided to outsource the leadership to …Sodexo… I understand they are doing a fantastic job.” 00:49:55 “I have said … ‘Skidmore College could afford to do anything it chose to do. It could not do everything it wished to do.’ ” 00:50:25 “One of the greatest privileges of my life, to work at Skidmore.” 00:50:31 END � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/15b306280817ba9b8319bdb96bb85a93.pdf f713a768cc6d9e0020b1a2d821dd321e PDF Text Text Interview with Karl Broekhuizen by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 18, 2019 LYNNE GELBER: Today is April 18th, 2019 and I’m here with Karl Broekhuizen and Sue Bender and this is Lynne Gelber. And we are happy to see you, Karl, after some time. Why don’t we start by having you tell us where you were born and raised and then maybe how you got to Skidmore eventually? KARL BROEKHUIZEN: I was born and raised in Holley, New York, which is about 25 miles west of Rochester, a small town of about eighteen hundred, primarily agricultural. I went to a small, a relatively small school system; there were 52 of us in my graduating class. When I left Holley to go to college, I went to the University of New Hampshire in Durham, New Hampshire. After that I went to the University of Massachusetts to get my MBA degree. I decided between undergraduate and graduate school that I thought I wanted to be more involved in the administrative side, financial side, of higher education. I had worked for the controller’s office at UNH and got a taste of that. LG: Excuse me, that was as a graduate student? KB: No, an undergraduate. LG: As an undergraduate? KB: Yes. A junior accountant type job. But I noticed, and this was in the early ‘60s, that at the time automated information and data processing was becoming, was coming on the scene. Most of the folks, the senior folks at UNH with whom I worked, were either retired military folks or faculty members who’d left the faculty to come into administration. And they felt, my observation was, they did not, were not fully embracing some of the nascent information processing age, and I felt there might be room for somebody in that arena. Also, somebody who had a somewhat different view of how not-for-profits, in particular — in general, and colleges and universities, in particular, ought to be managed and operated. At the conclusion of securing my master’s degree at U. Mass., the treasurer, who was the Chief Financial Officer at U. Mass. at the time, created three positions to report jointly to him and the dean of a particular college. To help serve, support the Dean in the academic college, administratively, �particularly financially, budget development and administration, but as I say, reporting jointly to the dean and to the treasurer. I was the first one hired in this role, as it turned out my classmate and roommate, apartment-mate, was the second one hired. My posting was to the graduate school, his was to the school of business. The graduate school at U. Mass. at that time had about 52 hundred students, had its own admissions operation, registrar’s operation, the University academic computing center reported there. The associate dean for research was in that office, so it was a very eclectic kind of arrangement and mirrored, in many regards, what a small college and university would be. LG: How long did you stay there? KB: I was there from 1967 to 1977, and throughout that I was the Business Manager in graduate school, then became Associate Budget Director for the University, and subsequent to that there were financial problems and the chancellor requested that I become the chief business person at the School of Education. And I was an Assistant Dean of Education at the time. I had an opportunity for a career change; I took the opportunity. U. Mass. had grown very much when I was there. When I first went there it was twelve thousand, five hundred students, when I left in 1977 it was twenty-five thousand students. With no disrespect to anybody, but the faculty had unionized, it was very different and it was very much political — part of the state, Massachusetts higher education system, it was very difficult to get things accomplished, both in terms of bureaucratic processes and scale. I applied for and was appointed Treasurer at Colby College in Waterville, Maine, which had about sixteen hundred students at that time. And had more control over its own destiny, not that there aren’t campus politics but about two layers was removed. And I was there for five years and then had the opportunity to come to Skidmore in September of 1981. LG: How did you hear about the Skidmore position? KB: I think I probably read about it in the Chronicle of Higher Education. LG: And you had an on campus interview with whom? KB: Well in the Skidmore tradition it was a staff of, it was a group of thousands. I mean it was a day and a half or two days on campus. Joe Palamountain was the president at the time, so I met with him, I met individually with Dave �Marcell, who was the provost, Eric Weller, who was the dean, Dave Long, who was the VP for … development, I think, at the time. Business Affairs staff, Steve Harran and Ted Butler. Claire Olds was the personnel director at the time. Some students, many faculty. Mark Gelber was on the faculty, was a member of the, a faculty member of the search committee. Mary Lynn was on that group at the time. I can’t remember most of the others. Had a very good, a pleasant session with my predecessor’s predecessor, Jim McCabe, who was a former Vice President. But anyway, it was quite an experience. LG: [laughs] So, and that was what year, again? KB: That was in June or early July of 1981, when the college was using, … I don’t know whether, I guess she was a friend, Nancy Martin Archer, Archer Martin was her name, and she was the search consultant. LG: So when you started work in 1981, what challenges did you face? KB: Well, I was not here, I guess I would say thankfully, in one regard, in the bad old, real bad old days, but I was here when days weren’t so good, either, particularly financially. Let me step back for just a second and say one of the things that appealed to me about the Skidmore opportunity was that it was, relative to … I won’t call them Skidmore’s peers, at the time, but relative to the competition, Skidmore was a very young institution and did not have 200 years of hidebound procedures, legacies, histories to have to deal with, and I felt, and Joe Palamountain reinforced the notion, that there was an opportunity for someone with a different perspective and some energy to come in and accomplish things, without having to be a slave to, again, as I say, 200 years of “the way we always did it.” KB: So coming to Skidmore in September, the fiscal year was June 30th, I was surprised, among other things, that their annual audit had not been yet completed. And so, Joe’s team and the board didn’t have much of an idea about how the college stood. And this was, you know, we were less than ten years into co-education, enrollments were a challenge, Louise Wise, the Director of Admissions at the time, was scrambling to fill beds. That year, in particular, the college had what it characterized as an “over-enrollment,” against what they had planned, or they had imagined, I think might be a better word than planned, would be the enrollment, and were renting spaces downtown, in School 7, the Van Dam building, and the community motel, for students. And how do we deal with that thing, that arrangement? We �were running busses, anyway, to Moore Hall, this was two, at least two, more stops. How do they get services, how do you arrange for them to get meals and so forth. So that was a challenge. The board had made the decision, either the previous February or May board meeting, to build a new sports center, which was seen at the time to be an addition to the Lodge. So, that was my first construction project on this campus. And very interesting, very … very different from the style of architecture elsewhere on campus, I would point out. The big job was to get to know the place and do some staffing. The area for which I was responsible at the time was called Business Affairs; it was not adequately staffed. The, then personnel function, now Human Resources, was essentially two people: Claire Olds, former Dean of Students, former Dean of Women and then Dean of Students, and Marianne Castelot and it was very clear that that area, given what was happening in society and on campuses, that area needed to be beefed up and needed to have somebody at its head who was more experienced, professionally experienced, in employment law, among other things, and good practices. LG: So had the architects and plans already been done for that sports center? KB: They were two-thirds done, I mean it was … one of the things I found, coming to Skidmore, and understandably so, was that the college never had, up to that point, sufficient resources to build buildings, design and build buildings that had sort of a common theme, and so forth. So what we needed, the college needed at the time for its dance program, athletics, et cetera, was space. And they couldn’t afford to, yet, to pay for the kind, the amount of space, they needed, with … wrapped in a finer quality skin, if you will, than we had. It was something that, you know, one of the realities of life. When I came to Skidmore, when we finally got the audit for the year ending June 30, 1981, the market value of the endowment was 7.3 million dollars, and the comprehensive fee was ninety-four hundred dollars. So the place, the college, was used to being under-resourced. And, I would say, I said back then, I would say at least up until the point in time that I retired, Skidmore became what it was, and what it is today, in terms of what I would categorize as the middle of the top tier of institutions, independent of the largest colleges, on the backs of the faculty and staff, trustees and students. Everybody uniformly put their shoulder to the wheel and pushed because they were all invested in what this … what the vision of this institution was. They gave fringe benefits rather than salaries, because it was less expensive �to do so. And people were very grateful for that. So, the … whatever story there was behind the now Williamson Kettering Williamson Sports Center, was a function of, “we need the space for our programs; it can’t be a pretty space.” One of the things that we were able to do early on is … and I would, I had, I made the case but I had a lot of support from the academic leadership of the college and ultimately the president and trustees, was to try to move our construction program up a notch or two in terms of quality, design, location. Much of what I know of the early development of this campus comes from, you know, other people … people like Joe and Jim McCabe, Dave Marcell, Erwin Levine, Mark Gelber, and so forth. I didn’t experience it all myself but I observed the results. One of the early things that the college had to deal with was when they acquired this property there was a lot of a limestone ledge not very far below the surface. And most, if not all, of the early buildings are three feet higher in the air because it was less expensive to go up than to blast and go down. [chuckles]. LG: Were there any other buildings that you were involved in? KB: Oh, there was a whole range. Ahh … what did we do, we did a residence hall, we did Harder Hall, temporary space [laughs]. Ahh … we renovated a large space, took Starbuck Center, which was a student social space, at one time, converted it into offices and so forth. Did the same with Barrett, that was in process when I first arrived, but Barrett was another student lounge, student center, at the time. We did Tisch, a learning center. Umm, certainly we did the Tang. I was involved in the planning process, design process, for the Northwoods apartments, the same with the Zankel. I was … I retired before they were, the Northwoods were just about completed when I retired, the Zankel was, we were still seeking funding as I recall. We did the library, additions on this library, during that tenure. We did the big addition to Case Center. LG: A lot of change! KB: Well yes, and the change was a function of, I think, the growing reputation and acceptance, acknowledgement of the student population, potential student population, of what Skidmore was and could be. It was a change, recognizing a change, in how curriculum was developed and delivered. The other thing I would comment on is that there was tremendous growth in �terms of the number of employees. When I came there were maybe 250, possibly 300 employees — faculty and staff. When I retired there was over 600, and now I understand its up over 800. But that’s a function of legal requirements; Title 9, in terms of women’s athletics, greater use of delivering … a need for counseling services, computing services, athletic teams, balancing mens and women’s teams, in terms of offerings, new additions to the curriculum, there’s a lot of new majors and so forth, greater health services, more staff for that. LG: In the course of your years, who were the presidents of the college? You started with Joe … KB: Joe Palamountain hired me, and then retired after six years. The college then hired David Porter, for almost 12 years, Jamienne Studley for four, Phil was here two years, when I retired. LG: You’ve really seen everybody after Val Wilson. Umm …? KB: I mean I, yeah, and I’d like to comment about that. I think Skidmore, this college, is today, is what it is today, in a large part because of Joe Palamountain’s presidency. Joe, in my opinion, saved this college. Val died prematurely, and Joe, who had little institutional experience, he had been provost at Wesleyan, came and saw what needed to be done in terms of bringing this campus in this location to a meaningful presence, and I think he surrounded himself with a good, a great team, and was able to move forward. I think when he chose to retire and the board hired David Porter, at the risk of seeming immodest, I think David was able to do what he did best, which was faculty interaction and support, because he inherited a very good support team. Dave Marcell and EricWeller, Dave Long, … I was part of the team, whether history will decide whether I was a major contributor or not [chuckle]. But that meant that David could rely on those folks to take care of daily operations, doing the stuff that needed to be done, so that he could visit faculty in their offices and focus on his vision for academic and programmatic growth of the college. LG: You were here at the point when Phyllis Roth took a year, two different times, KB: She, Phyllis, was acting president when David took sabbatical, and that was �for like six months, and then in the interim period after David’s retirement, in December, she completed that fiscal, that academic year and the first portion, I think it was, of the following. LG: From your point of view was that seamless? KB: Yes, yes. LG: You might comment on, aside from their different interests and talents that the various presidents brought, in what ways did their interactions with your area change … or grow? KB: Well, Joe was fairly hands off. He described, when we had our first or second interview, he described his leadership style as sort of a team approach or what he called a matrix management style. Which meant that the president’s staff, which at the time I think it was six of us, met weekly around a table and discussed whatever the important issue was in each of our divisions, and decisions were made collectively, and if … Joe was the referee to the extent that one was necessary, which it rarely was, and by the end of the conversation if, in fact, we couldn’t reach a conclusion, which we often did in one sitting, we all knew what the marching orders were, I mean, Joe would say, “yes, let’s do that,” or “let’s take some more time,” or whatever. And he said, at the time, and there is, in trustee minutes or board books or somewhere, that the president and the vice president, presidents, were what was called board appointed officers. That is, he would recommend to the board the hiring or appointment of the chief academic officer or the chief business officer or whatever, but the appointment was by the board. Deans were not. They reported to board appointed officers, and that worked well, I think, for the times. Oh, I was very, very impressed by one instance that I can recall very clearly, that I had, and this was during budget development time. I had an issue, and I can’t even remember what it was, it might have been in the computing center, where I needed fifty thousand dollars more than the preliminary budget figures required. We all talked about it in the room and Dave Long, VP for external affairs, said, “I can help you with that. I’ll give you fifty thousand dollars out of my budget.” No great hassle, no … what I would characterize as infighting, we were part of a team. And we would all meet, I think it was bi-weekly, one-on-one with Joe, just to talk specifically about things in our areas. Rarely, unless they were personnel, there was rarely any �decision made — it was more information exchange and obtaining perspectives, one to the other. But really the decision making was collective. I think, erroneously, many people thought that that made Joe sort of aloof from the operations. He wasn’t, it was just his style. When David came, again I think he set his priorities as the faculty and academic programming. We would still have president’s staff meetings. He, pretty much, continued with the matrix style of operation and the recognition of a differential between board-appointed officers and other senior members of the community. There were, to the best of my recollection, no major personnel changes during the period between David’s retirement and Jamie’s coming on board that Phyllis had to deal with, in that regard. Essentially it was, the time when, it was time to go to construction on the Tang. And I remember very clearly Phyllis being on the top of an excavator with one of the construction team’s people, coming around a grove of trees, in a hard hat and leading … But that was what I remember as the most visible nonacademic activity that Phyllis got involved in, I mean new activity. Jamie was very different, in my opinion she … I don’t know quite how to phrase it, she didn’t pay as much attention to the notion of separation of board appointed officers and their roles and responsibilities and others. The size of the president’s staff increased, Don McCormack was added to the group … and … LG: And Don was, at that time? KB: Don was Dean of Special Programs — had been, for a great long time. But, not but, his reporting relationship was to Dave Marcell, as Provost, or whoever the chief academic officer was, as Dave had left at that time to go to Rollins. But anyway … things, from my perspective, got much more centralized in the office of the president. She was very hands on, involved in lots of decision making. … LG: So the president’s staff had less of a voice? KB: As a collective, yes, it was much more one-on-one. It was like a wagon wheel, with Jaime as the hub, the rest of us were spokes, more decisions got made in her office than in the conference room. I had been at the college for whatever it was, eighteen or twenty years at the time, had my relationships with various trustees, that gave me a level of independence that a newer, less �tenured, not in terms of tenure, but in terms of time, other officers might have. So like the Vice president for Development or even the faculty, at the time. So, I mean it was just different styles, and different times, as well. LG: And what about Phil? KB: Well we worked together for two years and he was getting his feet under him, again. He was interested in knowing, housing-wise, I guess, of some of the things that we were doing, in terms of bond issues, for instance, and things of that nature. That was the level of his engagement in the Business Affairs area. LG: So Karl, in all of that, tremendous amount of change, what was the most exciting for you, the most pleasant, let’s say? KB: Well I think in terms of Business Affairs, at the time it was a very eclectic kind of division. I mean we had dining services and post office and bookstores and computing centers and so forth and so on. But certainly, in terms of construction, the design process of the Tang was the most interesting to me. Again, many members of a community that views itself as being very inclusive and so forth aren’t aware, I guess, of what’s included in the bylaws of a non-profit organization. The bylaws of Skidmore, at the time, and I’m sure they haven’t changed much, said that the Business Affairs, the vice president for Business Affairs, under the president, is the one responsible for the design and construction of the buildings and the facilities. So, I, when David and the faculty, particularly the art faculty, decided that we should have a museum, and the trustees were not enthralled with that notion, at the time primarily because their vision of a museum was a place where you showed artwork, paintings and sculptures and so forth, and Skidmore couldn’t afford that, given all the other challenges and desires that it had, and David, working with, must have been Bennie Wise, Phyllis at the time, and other faculty, determined that this would be a teaching museum. It would be integrated into the curriculum of the college, and take advantage of the college’s reputation in the arts, “art” arts, but make sure that students were there, involved in that facility, as part of their experience, their Skidmore experience, not just to go and view masterpieces and so forth. And so the board authorized us to do a teaching museum, I convened a group, with recommendations from Phyllis as to faculty members and who �would be there. We got alumni involved in it, trustees involved, and staff, and we had a search committee for an architect. And Tad Kuroda was intimately involved in that and working with Tad was just an absolute joy. We ended up with Antoine Predock. His name was surfaced by Jim Kettlewell, who was on the search committee. We winnowed ourselves down to three architects, the finalists, and Tad and I visited them in their studios. Antoine Predock, Frank Gehry in California, Predock in New Mexico and Robert Venturi in Philadelphia. And traveling with Tad, and these were typically two day visits or whatever, was just an absolute joy. Both in terms of focus on the questions we were asking of the architect and so forth, but also spending free time together. We went to a baseball game out in Los Angeles, for instance, and that worked out very good. Tad was a baseball fan, a big fan. And we watched the Dodgers play, I can’t remember whom, but we were up in the cheap seats because we got tickets last. And the Dodgers had an Asian, Japanese, I think, pitcher who was lightening, he was just very very good, and we ended up in these upper bleachers and … I can’t tell you how many, but I bet you there were at least 25, maybe more, folks there all Japanese or Japanese American. I was the only white guy there. And Tad just tweaked me … “What’s it feel like to be a member of a minority group now?” [laughs]. And it was all said in fun you know, in jest and so forth, but it was just a positive experience. We then had each of these three architects come to Skidmore, make presentations in the Surry, and I kept playing my role, and part — one of my roles was, “We’ve only got six million dollars to fund, to spend. How can you bring your vision in for six million dollars?” Gehry said, “Oh, it might be a little more than that,” but he wouldn’t give us a number. Predock came, and he came at least one, maybe two, days early, met with us and he spoke with faculty. One of the faculty members who we asked to take him on a tour of the surrounding area and of the campus was Ken Johnson, head of the Geology Department at the time. And Gehry was very much into designs that were organic to the site, and we had a site picked out and a facade that would blend very much, with colonial kind of construction and it was up closer to the campus. Predock said no, you don’t … if you want this to be integral to the campus you need to have it on a path where students go, they’ll be forced to go by it or better yet through it. And so he selected this site, made his point, and talked about it growing up out of the ground and it would have this limestone-like exterior and you could go through it or you could go over it, and it was just very very exciting. I mean, he had clearly done his homework. Gehry and Venturi were older guys, whose reputations �were more well established. Predock had a reputation but it wasn’t on the same scale. They came in, did their dog and pony show and left. And I believe, if my recollection is correct, when the search committee came to make its final recommendation, I think it was Predock hands down. I mean I cannot remember a dissenting voice there. And working with him and his colleague, the vendor contractor, was just a joy. One of … Predock would do these clay models and so forth and I remember looking at one that he brought up, … and talked about these sloping roofs, “and we’ll plant grass.” And I said, “no, we’re not going to do that. [laughs] I understand what you’re trying to do, but I’m not going to ask the physical plant crew to be mowing roofs. And this in wintertime and so forth and so on.” But just, and from my, now more just in perspective I think that both the structure, the museum structure, and the teaching aspects of it and the way it helps to both inform and deliver the curriculum and students academic experience has just been a remarkable success. It was a joy to have had a role in that. LG: Anything else that you want to add? KB: Well I would say … hiring Barbara Beck as the Human Resources officer who took, what was really, with no disrespect to her predecessors, sort of a paper processing operation into a comprehensive Human Resource function that helped department chairs and faculty with leadership issues and problem solving. Did a great job in terms of contract negotiations with, seven, at the time, unions. LG: Were you involved in her hiring? KB: I hired her. LG: Ok. KB: With some faculty dissent who thought that the person from corporate, GE, couldn’t be successful in an academic environment. Not true. LG: Ok. Anything else that we haven’t touched on that you have been thinking about? KB: Well, I think that … I can’t quite remember the circumstance, I that that, I guess when Dave left, Dave Marcell, yes, the range of the number of divisions that reported, yes, we were going to do away, they did away with �the Provost title, and it became Vice President for Academic Affairs and Dean of the Faculty; Dave’s and Eric’s function was combined. There were then questions about whether, since that sort of had a less diffuse focus in terms of divisional areas of responsibility, more focused on the faculty and academic program, what would happen to the various divisions. And Dave’s was … David Porter said Dean of Faculty would continue to report to the Academic Vice President, though I think it was Associate Dean at the time, and the Director of Admissions would report directly to David, Dean of Special Programs… LG: David Porter? KB: David Porter. Dean of Special Programs would report to David Porter, umm…, oh, Dean of Student Affairs would report to David Porter. Computing Center would report to me. And one of the things that I argued vociferously for, in opposition to positions that Michael Arnush and others took, was, … who was suggesting that the Computing Center be split between academic computing and administrative computing, with academic computing reporting to the Chief Academic Officer of the College. I kept saying, “No, we want one person to be responsible for both areas so there’d be better coordination and articulation of their vision and their role with directors of academic computing and administrative computing.” Ken Hapeman was there at the time, Leo Geoffrion, and Stan McGaughey, and I said, “I just did not want essentially the same general function, computing, vying for resources, vying for the same resources. I want one person to make the case, to be … if they were going to report to me, and ultimately to the president.” And so we did that and I think that worked out very well and it’s still the case today with Bill Duffy, and formerly Justin …, I can’t remember Justin’s last name, being an attendee at the Dean’s staff meetings. So that portion of the loop was better represented, I guess. I think that, it’s not just me, it’s the team that was in place with the support of Joe and David in particular, that the professionalism at the College, in terms of … well the areas in Business Affairs, and not exclusively, but elsewhere, have just come leaps and bounds. And I would say, I have said and I would repeat, again at least for the time that I was privileged to be at the college, that most members of the Skidmore community have … had no idea how well they were served by the senior directors in Business Affairs. The Ken Hapemans, Barbara Becks, Phil Cifarelli, Chris Kaczmarek, umm, we ran into some turmoil for a bit in facility services but got that squared away… �LG: Who was running that? KB: Well when I came it was Bob Jarvis, who did a wonderful job. Colonel Jarvis! [laughs] So when he retired, which many have said that was the worst thing he’d ever done, we had some trouble just getting the right focus and coordination. And ultimately, I decided to outsource the leadership, to Marriott, which became Sodexo, and so forth, but I understand they are doing a fantastic job. We insisted that the employees, the … unionized employees, would remain Skidmore employees, but the leadership would be on Sodexo’s payroll. But they were every bit as much a Skidmore employee. If they had to make a choice between what was right for Sodexo and what was right for Skidmore, Skidmore had to be it. And they were not to wear their Sodexo uniforms on campus. LG: So what was Sodexo’s responsibility, again? KB: Well Sodexo’s role was the leadership of facility services. The professional staff, the foreman and assistant … director and assistant director, but the line folks were our …were Skidmore employees. But I would say, you know, all … and I would take great credit for, well I would take some credit for this in terms of, at the time, the Business Affairs staff, their professional growth and leadership and management style all in service of the academic and student affairs programs at Skidmore College. I think it’s grown; I think the college is well served by it, not without challenges. I would say, I have said to, particularly to David Porter when he showed up, when he arrived, and I said the same to Jamie and I’ve said the same to Phil, shortly after he arrived, “Skidmore College could afford to do anything it chose to do. It could not do everything it wished to do.” LG: And with that, thank you. That was a wonderful ending. KB: A great privilege. One of the greatest privileges of my life, to work at Skidmore. LG: Excellent. Thank you so much. KB: Well you’re very welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karl Broekhuizen Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 50:33 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit March 29, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karl Broekhuizen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 18, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Karl Broekhuizen came to Skidmore in 1981 as Vice President of Business Affairs and remained in that position until 2005. In this interview he describes his path to Skidmore, including his education and experiences as a financial officer at other higher education institutions. He considers the unique opportunities involved in managing a relatively young institution like Skidmore and reflects on his work with four College presidents. Some of the financial challenges faced by the College across the years, its ambitious building program (especially the Tang), and building reputation throughout his tenure are topics that figure prominently in this interview. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History College Reputation David Porter Glotzbach Sports Center Human Resources Palamountain President's Staff Studley Tad Kuroda Tang Museum Zankel Music Center https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c15a90464ad63a5cf0503579a4b12419.jpg c6964c546f859e4f2c3a4150cb515129 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a39cbba293b8171dc8c88e71396c1be6.mp3 dda9a0a0365c8eb8b963ea4965667b7b https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/50e2604c0ef3642e3b730cb62d2cd95e.pdf d9cad02beafcf3552f560e487f047868 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Kathy Carter Years at Skidmore: 1986-2010 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: December 3, 2018 00:00:00 Introductions 00:01:12 When Carter first heard about the job at Skidmore 00:01:50. Growing up in Glens Falls, New York 00:02:30 Learning how to work in human resources and working with benefits 00:03:21 Adjusting to the shift from the business world to Skidmore 00:04:55 Introducing Carter’s biggest challenges 00:05:30 When did cost sharing start? 00:06:45 Deciding the healthcare plan for union personnel 00:07:51 How would you decide which healthcare plans to offer? 00:08:20 The Mohawk Hudson consortium and healthcare plans 00:09:00 Stop loss insurance at Skidmore 00:10:00 The three health insurance plans at Skidmore when Carter arrived 00:10:30 Dealing with challenges and conflicts with union employees 00:11:20 The joys of interacting with other employees 00:12:20 Attending faculty meetings 00:14:22 Attending various faculty parties to socialize with other employees 00:15:30 Serving under several different presidents at Skidmore 00:16:50 President David Porter and his personality 00:17:35 Keeping in touch with Helen Porter 00:18:15 Not having many interactions with President Glotzbach 00:19:20 Meeting various faculty during meetings to discuss benefits 00:20:30 Explaining benefits to people who were about to retire 00:21:48 What have you been doing since you retired? 00:23:40 Retiree group excursions 00:23:58 During her time at Skidmore, coaching people on if they were ready to retire or not 00:25:10 Planning her own retirement 00:28:15 The addition of new technology on campus and its impact on her work 00:30:31 The differences between the amount of contacts and resources working in the business world versus at Skidmore 00:32:00 “I loved my time at Skidmore” 00:32:40 Her changing job title and description over time 00:33:00 Steve Herron’s impact on her career and the college as a whole 00:34:50 Closing remarks � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3903cb6c00d6a91797c4e7e8e10afd35.pdf a785059d2544ed9586f1c39f0bf64cd3 PDF Text Text Interview with Kathy Carter by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, December 3, 2018 LYNNE GELBER: We ready? Okay. This is, what, the third of December already? 2018, and we are here with Kathy Carter, this is Lynne Gelber interviewing Kathy with the help of Brianna Logan, class of 2000? BRIANNA LOGAN: '20. LG: '20. Goodness. So, Kathy, thanks for coming in again. Why don't we start by having you tell us when you came to Skidmore? KATHY CARTER: Good morning, I'm happy to be here. I came to Skidmore April 1986. At that time Joe Palamountain was President. Ed McCluskey was Director of Human Resources where I worked. Karl Broekhuizen was the head of the division I worked in. Dave Marcell was Provost and Eric Weller was Dean of Faculty. It was a great team. LG: Yeah. How did you hear about the job at Skidmore? KC: It was interesting. I came out of... I came out of a business environment, a plant environment, actually, and our... LG: Where was that? KC: That was up in Glens Falls, New York. It was Ciba Geigy Inc. It was Hercules, a Swiss company, before Ciba Geigy bought it. Our health insurance rep from Blue Cross Blue Shield told me about the opening at Skidmore and thought it would be a good fit. So I decided to apply for it. LG: Did you grow up in Glens Falls? KC: I was born in Troy, New York and spent my first four years in Troy and then �at four, my father had a transfer. He worked for, at that time it was called Niagara Mohawk, which turned into National Grid, and got a transfer up further north. So we then moved to Glens Falls and I literally grew up in Glens Falls. LG: Good. KC: My memories are in Glens Falls. LG: And that's what's important. KC: Yes. LG: How did you learn the skills necessary for the kind of work with human resources? KC: I grew up in the environment, workwise, when I was working for Ciba Geigy. I was transferred into the human resource department and had a couple of very, very good directors who really taught me the ropes of being in human resources and working with all the benefits. And I had my introduction to labor relations there, also. So it was, was a learn- on-thejob concept for me. Very interesting. LG: And did those concepts translate well when you took the job here? KC: Yes, absolutely. There were things that struck me funny at the time, not anymore, of course, when I came here, and it was all the political women's issues. I think I referred to other women in my department as girls once ("the girls") and found out quickly that wasn't acceptable anymore. It was in the land of business, but not here. So it was things like that I really had to learn differently, and easy enough done if I paid attention. Few slips along the way, I'm sure, but you picked it up pretty quick. As far as the skills, you know, HR skills are HR skills no matter where you work. You have to walk the line where you're doing the best for the employees and doing the best for the �employer. So those skills I brought with me, and they just grew over time here since I was here so darnn long. LG: What were your biggest challenges? KC: Probably my biggest challenges... My biggest challenges were always trying to- some of my biggest challenges- were always trying to keep a good handle on the healthcare costs. Clearly, because that affected the college and then over time, as the healthcare costs grew, it began to affect the employees, because we in-putted cost sharing, as 99 other employers did. 99% of employers. So it was always trying to find a good balance for the employees and the employer. In that, that was probably one of my biggest challenges here. LG: When did cost sharing start? KC: You know, I can't remember exactly. I could guess, but it would be strictly a guess. It had to be.... I'm guessing the late 90s. I'm guessing the late 90s. LG: And how did you come up with the percentage? KC: The college, my department really, hired some consultants that worked in the area and helped us with how to construct that. And it was salary based, you know, the lower salary paid the least amount. Those with the highest salary paid a higher percentage. It was thought to be fair across the board. LG: So this would pertain to both the union and non-union personnel? KC: It wasn't the union because the union...The union, anything you do with the union, because it's a contract, has to be negotiated, so they weren't in the picture on that at the time nor was the college choosing their healthcare for them. The union had their own healthcare and we paid the premium for them- it changed over the years, I understand, after I left, but at that time, we could negotiate. We could attempt to negotiate the cost, but you didn't want �to leave them without healthcare so that was a negotiating issue. But as far as the support staff and the admin and the faculty, they were all under the original cost sharing because they shared in all the healthcare plans we offered. LG: How would you decide what plans to offer? KC: When I first came to the college, the plans were set. There were three plans, and as years went by we did make some changes. We went out to bid with different insurances. At one point we joined a consortium and we were the only ones that ended up buying into that plan, which...it was a pretty decent plan. LG: Which consortium, which plan? KC: It was through the... I won't get the names right because I've been retired so long now. But it was a Mohawk something consortium, yes, Mohawk Hudson Consortium. And it was like our own personal.... LG: So, those were colleges, similar kinds of colleges in the region? KC: Absolutely, but we were the only ones that bought into the plan, so it became our own personal plan, you know, which was I didn't think was a bad thing. LG: That wasn't a self-insured plan? KC: That was a self-insured plan. That was probably our first self-insured plan. I liked them because you had some control over them and you always bought stop/loss insurance in case somebody's bills went over a certain amount, stop/loss insurance kicked in. Of course, then, you know, if you had too many of that, you might've gone out to bid again the next year on the stop/loss insurance. So there were always things that you were trying to balance. �LG: So when Skidmore had its own plan, there were three... KC: When I first came here, they were Blue Cross Blue Shield, which was what we thought was that of the 8020 plan, and MVP and CD PHP. Those are the three plans. LG: And those were the plans that you self-insured? KC: None of those were self-insured at the time, the first self-insured was when we changed the Blue Cross Blue Shield plan to the consortium plan, yes, and since then we stayed self-insured on the main health insurance. LG: Interesting. KC: Health insurance is always interesting and highly regulated, so.... LG: What other challenges did you have? KC: There were union challenges. Union employees would like things different at times, but you have to follow the contract. It was only in negotiating a new contract every three years that either side had an opportunity to negotiate changes in the contract. So that was always a challenge with wants and needs, and contracts and making people feel, not happy in their work, but satisfied in their work because of issues that may or may not arise. LG: What were the most fun things? KC: Working with employees. When I first came here, it wasn't as busy as it got in later years. So I could have some, what I called free time, in my day and I would just walk the campus and stop in different offices whether they were administrators' offices or faculty departments' offices, and just chat with them. Or at one point I offered to come to faculty meetings for departmental faculty meetings and talk about benefits and to answer questions. So the �interaction with the employees, whether they were the faculty or the admin or the support staff was always fun for me. I like people so I was in the right job at the right time, I guess. LG: In those interactions what was surprising to you? KC: I don't think there were any surprises for me. I know I made some very good friends when I worked at Skidmore and I think I shared with you previously that I had a lot of friends on the faculty side of the house, also. And when I went to a faculty meeting, and it wasn't every faculty meeting, but, you know, my friends would pull me over to sit with them and I later found that, as a general rule of thumb, anyone from the administration always sat in the upper right-hand side of the auditorium. LG: Was this in Filene? Or where was this? KC: So, I think it was in Gannett. It was in Gannett because that was larger then and that's usually what held everybody. So that alone was surprising to me, but you know history's history and tradition is tradition. But my friends still pulled me over. It was fun, you know, it was fun. Skidmore is a great place to work. LG: Did you get teased about it among your colleagues? KC: No, I don't think they'd ever said anything to me but I'm sure I'm sure they did some thinking about it. But I I would imagine my people in my area that I reported to were probably happy that I made friends in the faculty as well as I did every other area. It's just good, I don't want to say business, but it's just good practice. LG: There are certain parties that people socialize at during the year- is that where you would also make contacts with faculty or staff? KC: Sure yeah, and especially in the early days I would go to any party- just by �myself. You know whether it was the social...I remember going to a party for Phyllis Roth. I can't remember why, but it was in Falstaff’s. And I went over by myself, but I knew enough people that I was comfortable, but I got to meet more, you know. Or I'd go to after faculty (meeting) get-togethers, and you know I always enjoyed chatting with different people there. It was, I guess, I was very social during those years. It was fun. LG: (laughing) Are you implying that you're not social now? KC: Well I don't go to as many parties anymore, but my life is pretty full. I guess I am social but in different ways. LG: So you served under several different presidents, didn't you? KC: I did. When I came it was President Palamountain, and I can't remember the year he retired, but it was in that first year-of the date he retired, I should say- but it was in that first year of mine because David Porter came in '87, July 1987, I believe. So I was here a little over a year -when David Porter started so I didn't have a lot of time with Joe Palamountain. But, what I remember of him, I remember him as a very shy man, at least with me he was, and you know I could stop and chat with anybody. And then when David Porter came he was so different for me, you know, but I had a longer exposure to him. I guess he was my favorite, David Porter, if we're picking favorites. LG: He was? KC: Well, he was so outgoing and, you know, he knew everybody's names! And he would write these little thank you notes to people just out of the blue. And I can remember when I got one from him, I just got such a kick out of it. And the puns he would tell publicly in his meetings, you know, some people would just shake their heads- yes, groan- and some people would just laugh out loud. But, he was a good, kind person and he seemed to have the leadership the college needed at the time. At least from my viewpoint. He �was well-liked and his wife was very nice, and I still have lunch with her to this day. And you know that David died a few years ago as we all remember, you know, but Helen is still local and she's a good egg. So I keep getting together with her. There are other retirees, you know, retirees are always fun for me. They were the fun group and there was a lot I socialized with. And there's a few that are still around that I knew well and that I still see. LG: So who was president when you retired? KC: When I retired Phil Glotzbach was president. LG: And you had similar kinds of interactions with Phil? KC: I didn't have many interactions with Phil. I think he knew who I was, of course, but there wasn't as many opportunities, I guess, to interact with him. After David left, we had our first female president, and she wasn’t here that long and then I think Phil came after. And I didn't have a lot of interaction with Jamie Studley, our female president. But I certainly knew her, also. You know, when anybody new on that level came, I would go over to their home and sit and go over the benefits with them and their spouse, if they had one, or partner, and explain it. So I certainly had an opportunity to meet everybody at first. You know, it was the same with any new employees that came that were benefit-eligible. I got to know so many people on campus because I was the one who had to explain the benefits to them so that really gave me an easy way to meet people. LG: So would you meet with a group or meet individually? KC: Sometimes I met individually, but I would have a group meeting and I might have five or six in it, I might have two, I might have three. If it was one, you know, it's just done in my office but I can't remember how often I did the group meetings- maybe it was monthly or every couple weeks, depending on the hiring, of course. You know, but that was a nice way for me to meet �people and they got to know me and I think it's always easier when you can put a face to a name so if you do need help in an area you know who to reach out to. LG: So you would be explaining benefits to people as they were coming in? KC: Yes. LG: What about people who were about to retire? KC: Oh, I'm the one that helped all of them and that wasLG: Did you start that program? KC: You know, I don't know. I just did what I was used to doing when somebody was going to exit. They needed to understand what benefits they were going to leave with and how they would work and what paperwork needed to fill out for to get money, so they can make a nice living, or connect them with one of the reps from the retirement companies to go over their retirement plan, even before they were going to retire to make sure they were on the right path so they could have a good retirement. LG: When you first came were TIAA-CREF and Vanguard already the providers? KC: Yes, yes. I think Vanguard was relatively new then, but a lot of our employees- it was probably half-and-half, you know, half went to TIAA and half went to Vanguard. So they had a presence on campus for sure. Both good companies. LG: So, Kathy, what have you been doing since you retired? KC: Um, I guess just living life. I've been gone 8 years now. This month- it's 8 years at the end of the month. I have a daughter and her family locally, so my two grandchildren are local, so my grandson is 13. So he doesn't need a �sitter anymore, but my granddaughter- I'm the back-up when my daughter needs help, which I'm happy to do or there's lots of sleepovers with that sweet little seven-year-old. I have a handful of good friends that I'll go to lunch with or dinner with or go to the movies with. I can catch up on books, or, I own my own home, so I have quite a large yard to take care of. I have a huge flower garden. I've done some traveling but not extensively. You know, I've been to Canada. I visited Texas. I've been to Maine. I've been to Chicago. You know... LG: Do you travel alone or do you travel with a group? KC: No, I've traveled alone usually and sometimes, sometimes, once in a while it was with a group. But mostly alone and it's to people I know. So I don't think my travel has been extensive, but it's been enough for me. LG: Do you ever go with retiree groups on their excursions? KC: No, I haven't. I haven't felt the need to, or the time, to tell you the truth. I can remember always coaching people that come to me and say, you know, I don't know if I should retire. And I'd always say, you know, you know when you're ready to retire, and it happened with me, too. I knew when I was ready to retire. And, you know, I had a full life right from the beginning, and the employees that retired would come back and say to me, "I don't know where I found time to work before." Well, I've begun to say that phrase. I don't have time to keep adding new things in it because my calendar is pretty booked, so.... LG: Would people be worried about having enough to live on? KC: I think people should always be worried about that you can, you know, very easily take care of planning by taking advantage of things Skidmore HR office offers. They bring in a retirement specialist not affiliated with either company, who's excellent. They bring in TIAA-CREF, they bring in Vanguard, so people should always be aware of that. �LG: What involvement did you have with that, bringing people in? KC: I brought in, I made arrangements, sort of arrangements, you know, because these people were already available to you. And other colleges had recommended Dave Carbone, so I made arrangements to get him in here and I think he's been a pretty big hit, because he still comes here. LG: Do you want to explain what he does? KC: Well, I went to him as an employee because I wanted to see. And he really goes over your plan. What are your plans, what are you thinking, have you filled out a budget, so do you know how much money you think you will need? How do you have your money situated in funds? How much you should withdraw, what percentage you should withdraw a year to make sure it lasted as long as you could. So, you know, he really goes over so, so many things with employees. So they really should take advantage. And of course, the TIAA-CREF and the Vanguard people are looking at their plan and asking you what your goals are. And you always have to look at your history of your family and this might sound morbid, but you know how long your mother and father survived. How long did your siblings survive to get an idea and is just an idea of how long you are going to survive. So do you need retirement funds for 15 years or 30 years? So you know, those are all legitimate things to start thinking about. I can remember I went to somebody else after I had gone to Dave and I actually made these charts on an Excel spreadsheet where I had all my income coming in in my budget going out and you know the man I saw, it was local and of course he knew me, and he just laughed and shook his head. And said, "Not many people bring this, these charts but they look pretty good." So I think I was exposed to it for so many years, I just went ahead and played with numbers for myself. But these people will help you do that so... LG: So what kinds of things were most fun, and what kinds of things did you bring to the table at Skidmore that hadn't been here before? �KC: You know I don't know what I brought that wasn't here before because Skidmore had a pretty good system set up. I don't know if I brought more people skills or not to be honest with you. I like to think I did, but I don't know because, you know, you don't know what you don't know, you know? I think- I'm pretty sure I had to bring a level of assistance to employees they might not have gotten before because I was so hands-on. LG: The other day you were talking about technology. KC: Well, that's true. Technology was interesting because in the early years I talked about where I would go roaming, really, sometimes for an hour on campus to pop in and talk to people and it was a good way to connect. But as the years went on, and technology got better, and these new programs were brought in. It was wonderful because you got all these reports coming out the back end which helped you in your job no matter what kind of job you had, but it also took more time to input all the information and the data that was needed so you can get the reports out. So I found over the years, and other people also did as we spoke of it, bound to the office more because there was, there were more hands-on things you had to do technology wise. I know one of the big differences working for business and then coming to the college was in business you could assign people to do a lot, whether it was to write a letter, type a letter for you (which was called typing back then) or put some information into the computers for you. But when you, when I came here, really you were at, you know, even in business, I had a whole law department I could call on down near the city for any legal questions I had. So you know your contacts are all there because they worked with you. But when I came here, you know, you really did your own letters, and you did your own calls and you had to investigate all the legal ramifications yourself. As time went on, and different HR directors came in, you know, there were those contacts set up, but it wasn't for years, probably until the last HR director came in that I really have a goodLG: And who was that? �KC: Barbara Beck- that I really had a good contact. And she was the first one that brought in the law firm, and they did a lot for the college in other areas, but for me it was a good contact for labor relations issues. If I couldn't interpret the contract myself or the law. And they had some good benefit people connected to them either in Albany or Syracuse. So, you know, it was a lot of years where you had to scramble and find your own resources on this. So, you know, the college evolved over time and got better, as you would expect. LG: So, are there other things you want to say about your time at Skidmore? KC: You know, I personally loved working at Skidmore. I loved my job. I loved helping people. I loved helping Skidmore. It was fun and... LG: Did your job title change over the years? KC: I always did the same work and my title changed over the years to reflect the union part, which, you know, I guess... LG: So when you came, your title was? KC: I was the Assistant Director for Benefits and then as the union side of it grew, when Steve Haran was here as the business manager, he really was the key contact for the union. And I think I talked about him when I was in before. He did a lot for the college, and I don't think everybody could see that and I understand it. But he was fun to learn from because he had a lot of knowledge on how to negotiate things. Whether it was with the contractor on getting supplies for a new building or negotiating with the union and I think I mentioned before that he'd turn the budget into pennies and maybe it would end up as: "We have 15 pennies and we can spend it on these items. It's going to be up to both of us to agree on how to spend it." And I could never ever figure out how he got it down [to] pennies. I gave up trying, but I �learned a lot from him and then when he retired, the HR director really took over the role of lead negotiator and it was probably the first, it was it was probably the first director that could assume those duties. And, you know, my role over the 25 years I was here just kept growing on the union side. So eventually I probably had the longest title at the college. LG: Which was? KC: It was Assistant Director for Benefits, Administration, and Labor Relations. And that really reflected you know the two sides of the house I did. After I left I think they hired somebody to do labor relations. And they, you know, they split it out. But I must be, I juggled well at the time. LG: Anything else you want to add? KC: Not that I can think of other than again I'll say Skidmore is a great place to work. The employees, the faculty, they were fun people, intense people at times, sometimes mad people, but always the best. It was a great place to work. LG: Well, thank you Kathy, it's been a pleasure. KC: Thank you, Lynne. Thank you, Brianna. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kathy Carter Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:13 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit February 14, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kathy Carter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 3, 2018 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Kathy Carter joined Skidmore’s Human Resources team in 1986 where her primary responsibilities included administering the college’s benefits programs and managing its labor relations. In this interview she describes transitioning from a corporate to academic work setting, overseeing complicated health insurance programs, negotiating union contracts, and -most especially- her enjoyment in interacting with employees across the college. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History CREF David Carboni David Porter Helen Porter Human Resources Labor Relations/Benefits Retirement Planning TIAA Vanguard https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e6112c467fd6d6fc0070e0c782d4708c.jpg ff4143e60812cce296b351aa308e9ee4 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cb72d792baa4ce68ba7d8653fb31517d.wav a85dbe1e772cf2ef62d752aebd9f3fce Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cavicchi, Julia Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Blackhurst, Kelly Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Scribner Library, DocLab Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Dym, Jordana Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 07/10/2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kelly Blackhurst, '14 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 7, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. SSMP Oral History Project Description An account of the resource Kelly is currently the interim head field hockey coach at Denison University. She was a managament and business major. Language A language of the resource eng https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cebc75c0763e4696d1989ba590d0ca57.jpg 608b865f56066cebbbd1d387e005451f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0cd5b07100cd3d4c80820fdd8df87960.mp3 e55df6db374ed2d8e2c241bea025e143 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/30fe028ce5e2094ee9a34a8ec3501f55.pdf 69c5c72bd1b234c425cefbefb9965fe6 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Ken Hapeman Years at Skidmore: 1981-2005 Location of Interview: Scribner Library, Skidmore College Date of Interview: April 5, 2017 00:00:1:09 Born in Hudson New York, 1944. Grew up in Hudson and went to Hudson High School. Father and grandfather were both from there. 00:00:1:25.00 Upon graduating high school went to RPI College. Brought an artifact from college- a slideroom. Example of how the times have changed. 1962 -no calculators no computers. 00:04:02.00 Graduated from RPI with a degree in psychology. This was unusual, therefore were only seven people in the department. Then went to work in Albany. Got a job right out of RPI at IBM and worked there for 7 years. Then worked at state university of NY then moved onto Skidmore. 00:0:08:05.00 Had the opportunity to go to SUNY to be a technical specialist. Was there for 6 months in this position until the boss left and offered him his job. 60 people were working for him for 7 years. This is where he got management experience. In the end he couldn’t handle this working evirornment so looked at want ads. Skidmore popped up. 00:11:11.00 1981 arrives at Skidmore. As a new employee the college’s endowment was in bad shape. Skidmore received an annual audit saying you might want to consider bankruptcy. Then the campus was given as a donation. At this point everything was basically moved from downtown-few classes maybe still downtown. 00:14:06.00 When coming to Skidmore he was attracted by the thorough interview process. He met everybody and thought it feels like a family. Very easy to make his feelings known and make recommendations. “Closeness is what attracted me to the college.” 00:12:46.00 Thinks Palamountain is a wonderful speaker. “Very commanding and inspiring leader but not sure if he was the best managerial leader.” Extremely likeable which was important to the college at the time. “In the chaos, he was grounded and the right man for the times.” 00:17:22.00 1962-1981.“Times have changed so much.” Only two computers on campus. One supporting academic activities- newly installed in 1980. Data sheets were sent out to Springfield, Mass to be analyzed by consultants. Reports then came back to Skidmore for alumni to look at. �Hapeman controlled both of these computers. 00:21:19.00 The college was in its infancy. “Task was to take all the stuff and put it into a reasonable computing environment for the college” There were computers around the size of a washing machine with 20mg of data – very small amount. At Skidmore there were two small computers and few people had access to them- everyone else had nothing. 00:24:47.00 – His position was director of computer services . It was the first IT position that the college had. 00:27:05.00 Hiring people was important- getting support was helpful. Needed to make it so more students can interact with the computer at the same time. He and others did a thorough investigation to find the right software- in the end they bought a new computer. 00:31:25.00 Everybody was squeezed in. Staff space was in inadequate offices and conditions but eventually things changed. 00:33:20.00 in 1983 AMES came to campus- academic information management system. The administrative system wasn’t perfect but they modified it to fit Skidmore’s needs and hired additional programmers to help out unify the system. 00:36:15.00 David porter- wonderful man – “felt his humanity when you talked to him” “great punner” In the faculty unrest he helped unify them. 00:41:09.00 Interacted with students who worked with him – students who ran the computer system for the high school- amazing kids, used them for lab assistance. Had a “small sampling.” 00:42:29.00 1st half of the 1990s – personal computer started to show up “rocked our boat in many ways.” Everybody wanted a mac but didn’t have the budget. The faculty and staff just began to have their own computers in their offices--- first presence of this technology was in offices. 45:37.00 “Technology was booming of course…” the source of all knowledge resided in the computer center in the 80s and in the 90s that spread to be somewhat of common knowledge. This was a difficult transition psychologically. 48:53.00 By 1995 everything had changed- online registration - nothing is really done by paper �anymore. All automated. 52:52.00 Started with a new system. Banner- works well with an institution like Skidmore – but he doesn’t like banner. It’s successful to be on the same page as other institutions/colleges. 55:47.00 Since leaving Skidmore still converts things from AMES to banner, still has his technical connections here. � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f95d49ad4072e26b90d757cb9ecfe693.pdf 276b037d8844667a37a3ffc5f0235c0e PDF Text Text Interview with Ken Hapeman by Max McDermott, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, April 5th, 2017. Max McDermott: Hello, this is Max McDermott interviewing for the Skidmore retiree memory project. I am with Ken Hapemen in a study room. Study room 126 in the Scribner library on a Wednesday April 5th 2017. Ken, Hello How are you today? Ken Hapeman: I’m good how about you? MM: Now to begin our interview, I’d ask if you could tell us- just to be able to get a bit of context of where your story began -could you tell us where you were born, a little bit about that and if you don’t mind, when? KH: Sure, (cough) no I was born in Hudson, New York which is about 30 miles south of Albany in 1944. So I’m 72 years old right now. I grew up in Hudson, um I went to Hudson high school and uh my parents had lived there. My father at least had lived there his whole life so we had deep roots in Hudson. I believe his father had lived there as well. Upon graduating high school, I went to RPI to college. And, actually, brought an artifact with me today maybe this is the time to show it. How things have changed. Of course, this won’t show on the interview but I brought a sliderule. Because as a freshman in engineering at RPI we had to all purchase a sliderule. And we look at the high tech equipment today- the equipment I’m sitting here talking to you with which is made available to you. We had to buy these things. They weren’t that expensive. I think it was 50 or 60 dollars but this was as close as you could come to something that would do a lot of complex math. And these things, you could do a lot with these things. You could multiply, divide - you know logarithmic kind of computations and so this thing which I bought for say 50 dollars back in 1962. I haven’t used it in a long, long time. It sits in my room I pull it up just to bring it up as an example as how the times have changed. MM: Wow, looking at this um I’m seeing I mean I am a complete layman in terms of anything mathematical, anything to do with calculations. I’m seeing a ruler. I see a piece in a middle that slides… KH: Right, yup, and different… MM: I can’t even begin to guess how it works. KH: Well let’s do something really simple. Let’s say you want to multiply 3x2…. It can do a lot of stuff. You put the one over the 2. So that’s the kind of thing it can do. It does a lot of computations. (laughs) So this was the tool that all engineering students had to use. There were no calculators, no computers; this was it. And so, we bought this. I was an engineering student for a few years. I changed majors eventually and so this has sat unused. I really never used it beyond a few classes. And now it’s an artifact. (laughs) �MM: Wow KH: So that’s me. I got to school at RPI. I graduated from RPI. I went to work in Albany. So I spent my whole life in the capital district basically. MM: Ok ok. And you always had an interest in mathematics. Sounds like engineering. KH: Right I went to RPI as an electrical engineering major. I decided along the way that engineering was not for me. I actually would have become a math major. I was very interested in math, but as an engineering major we had to take something called engineering drawing. Which is essentially what you can do with a CAD program today, but we had to do a long hand with a big T-square and a giant board which we also had to buy. And because I spent 2 years taking engineering drawing classes I didn’t take what would have been required to be a math major at RPI which was two years of German or two years of Russian. (laughs) And so there was no way to make that up. So, I switched out of engineering and actually graduated from RPI with a degree in psychology. So, I was unusual, I was about one of seven people in the department at that point. Um hmm it was unusual anyways. And so, I got a job right out of RIP with IBM in Albany and worked there for about seven years. Then I went to State University of NY and worked there for about seven years and then I came to Skidmore. MM: Wow. Before we move onto Skidmore I just want to briefly ask. Could you sum up- what did your experience teach you? From IBM from SUNY Albany? KH: SUNY Central actually MM: SUNY Central, right KH: Um right. This is the office that administrates for all the SUNY colleges and all their campuses. MM: Right, right KH: It’s not on a campus; it’s a central hub. It did a number of things- like centralized application processing at that point and probably still today. If you are going to apply to SUNY you filled out a common application and that was sent to SUNY central, the staff at SUNY central, with data entered the common app and send it to the colleges you said you were interested in. So, we did that service along with, you know, a bunch of other stuff. We ran some site contracts we had a contract with a national library in Memphis to run something called the Medline system, which was a very early search and retrieval service for medical information. And a couple of other things. So, we did that. But anyway, my experiences when I graduated from RPI, again, computing was in such an early phase that while I was at RPI I had taken one course in digital computer design and one course in Fortran programming and that was it. That was my total IT exposure. �Most employers at that point in ’67, when I actually graduated, were looking for students in various engineering majors, which I didn’t have, so I agreed to interview anybody who would talk to any student. I really wanted a job I did not want to go to grad school. So, IBM was one of those companies and I interviewed with them and a couple of others, got offers, decided to go with IBM and they immediately sent me off to 16 weeks of training, which really taught me everything that was the base of my knowledge of computing of IT. It was great. We did programming at a machine level which meant we were actually writing machine instructions for the computers at the time, which were IBM system 360s - big refrigerator like boxes - many of them. And 3 months of that I went back to work for IBM. I was assigned to an IBM customer site, where I had to help them install systems and that taught me again a great deal more. After 7 years things had changed in the IBM working environment so an opportunity to go to SUNY came along and I went as sort of a technical specialist. And I had been there maybe three or four maybe 6 months, I don't know, and my boss the person who had hired me left and recommended me to take his job. So, suddenly I was in charge of this computing center in SUNY central without really ample good experience to do it. But I muddled along and I had about 60 people working for me at that point. And I did that for about seven years. So that taught me a lot about management. I had no management experience. I had a good technical background but I didn't have the management background. About 1980 or so I started warning my bosses at SUNY that the National Library of Medicine contract that we were operating was in danger. We were going to lose it, and the computer center that I ran was built on a structure that depended on funding from a variety of sources, one of which was the National Library of Medicine and was a couple hundred thousand dollars. It was a chunk of money, a significant piece so we lost that contract. And despite the fact that I had been warning my bosses about it, that we had to restructure the financing of the computer center, they told me in 1980 when that contract went away that I had to fire 12 people who didn't deserve to be fired. Who were doing good work, but the money was just not there, so I did my job I fired 12 people. and I immediately started looking at the want ads. That was too much. I could not remain in that environment. And I hadn't started looking more than a month when an ad for a position at Skidmore College came up. I made the jump. MM: You made the jump KH: Yeah MM: Alright, so that's how you came to Skidmore. KH: mhm MM: So you arrived at Skidmore this year is 1981 KH:Right, yup �MM: Ok now I want to know exactly the history of Skidmore from your point of view. Now, aside from technology, aside from any computer science, just as new employee - I'm wondering how you saw the college. As I understand that at this time the move from the old campus was still ongoing. The college had put itself in financial danger from that project and when Leo [Geoffrion] was talking to me he remembered President Joseph Palamountain announcing proudly that after an ambitious fundraising campaign the College could boast an endowment of 12 million dollars. Can that be right? I mean today i looked it up. Today we have an endowment of 330 million could we really have been in a state that far away? KH: Well actually, I really don't remember the number but I know the general feeling was that the colleges endowment was grossly inadequate. So, the number’s probably right. It’s certainly in that ballpark. The college was in bad shape before making the move. They had received an annual audit. A what was it called… let me see if I can come up with the terminology… there’s an auditor's term for this… a non…um, uhh gee I'm not going to come up with it. MM: I’m hoping you're not about to say bankruptcy… KH: No, no, but you know it’s..what it is, it’s a letter from the auditors that says you don't really have the structure to be a successful business and you want might consider, you might want to consider bankruptcy. So it was pretty serious stuff. And the college had a few breaks at this point. They got this campus as a donation I believe from J Eric Johnson and his family. And by the time I came here actually the move was really complete. The only thing that remained downtown were a few students and a few dorms but basically everything was…and I guess there were a few classes taught downtown... but everything basically was here, most of the campus was in place and complete. MM: Ok. Could you tell me about your impression of the school when you first arrived as a place to live and work? KH: Yeah its interesting because where I had been at SUNY central; well, let’s go back to IBM. In IBM I worked in an office in a huge corporation and the layers of bureaucracy above me appeared endless. You know, I knew the people in my office but I didn't know anybody else. When I went to SUNY it didn't seem quite so big, but it did seem extremely bureaucratic. Everything had to go through a process; everything kind of ground to a halt every time you tried to do something. Nothing was easy to do. So, when I came to Skidmore one of the things that really attracted me, on the days that I interviewed here, were first of all the thorough interview process. I met virtually everybody including the President, all of the deans, the department heads of significance. I met everybody, and I felt, wow, this is a place which will feel to me more like a family or a unit I can feel close to. In the sense that I’ll have some contact with everybody from the top down and that was really my biggest impression at the time. It’s a smaller, tighter unit than what I had been in and that I would work.… If I wanted to do something I could explain it to my boss who was at the time was the Provost. It was a position that was done �away with but he was a provost; but essentially, he was the Vice President for Academic Affairs. And his boss was the president. I was two layers down from the top, so it was very easy to make my feelings known and get recommendations and put action on it. Not that the recommendations were always accepted, but many of them were, and I always felt I had a say. So, that feeling when I came here of closeness was really what attracted me to the College. MM: Excellent; happy to hear that. I'm wondering for more documentations of landmarks in Skidmore history. As for President Palamountain whether Skidmore was heading in the right direction under his presidency. Did you have an opinion on him? KH: Yeah well, I had some opinions about him. He was a great speaker so he was very commanding when he stood up in front of a group and talked and so that was inspiring. I would say he's an inspirational leader I'm not sure if he was the best managerial leader. If you get my opinion.... He uh spent a lot of time dealing with data and minutia. He was very interested in data, so well we would get calls to his office because he was working on an old electric typewriter- metal electric typewriter a data entry machine and had a problem with a word processing machine. So, you wouldn't think he would be involved with that level of detail but he was. But I liked the man. He was extremely likable and he was extremely inspirational which was important to the College at that point. MM: That’s good, so he kind of kept everyone together as the chaos was going through. It sounds like it took a lot of effort to move that campus KH: Right yeah I think he was the right man for the time. MM: Now I'm gunna move on. Now your first impression of Skidmore as a computer scientist. where did we stand in 1981. Were we up to date? KH: Well, you know up to date is a funny way to think of it because the times have changed so much. You know, as I brought my little slide rule with me from 1962 (when I bought that slide rule) to 1981, there was a lot of change, but computing and information technology was largely main frame systems with terminals tied to them. When I came to Skidmore what I found was there were two computers on campus. and I was going to be in charge of both of those. One supported academic activities; one supported administrative activities. The one supporting academic activities had been newly installed in the past year, I would say, so 1980. It was a Texas Instruments 990 which was a very inappropriate computer for academic activities, unfortunately. So, the choice I think had been influenced by JR Johnson as head of TI who had given the college so much land. I don't know exactly how that happened, but at any rate they had a computer that they had high hopes for - the academic side of the house- and it was not really doing the job. I would say it was pretty inadequate. On the other side of things - in the administrative computing arena there was a Sperry Univac System 3, which was about half the size of this table were sitting at. It was funny-shaped; it �might have been almost as long as the table but not as deep. So, you know, 5 or 6 ft long by 3 ft wide. It had sort of a desk built in and it was being run by a consultant so there were no employees there except a part-time clerk in the business office. There was an IT consultant who ran it for the college, and they had three or four, maybe five, terminals up in the business office in Barrett Center and nothing anywhere else, and the rest of administrative computing like the Alumni Office and Registrar’s Office, all of which have big needs, were relying on external consultants. The Alumni Office would mail data sheets to Springfield, Massachusetts where there were data entered by the consultant on their computers in Springfield, Mass. and then the reports that came out of the computers came back here for the alumni staff to look at. So, it was pretty slow pretty crude. The Registrar’s Office had a similar kind of arrangement with an external consultant arena. So, the administrative computer only served Barrett Center and it only had about 5 or 6 terminals. The academic computer was located on 3rd floor Palamountain Hall. I just walked by it today to see what it looks like up there and it actually looks remarkably similar. There are offices in the area where there were some computer terminals and there’s a closet that has a computer that’s still sitting there, so things don't look that much different up there. The terminals were two four, I believe, CRT display terminals and a couple of typewriters hooked up to this machine that was it. On the wall there were still a couple modems that were used apparently prior to that purchase to connect over to Dartmouth, which is the way they used to get their service. So, the College was in its infancy to say the least. But you know to say that things were so different..., nobody had an iPhone; you know, nobody had a personal computer.Tthere were no such things; they didn't exist. So, my task was to take all that stuff and try to figure out how to grow it into a reasonable computing environment for the College. MM: Ok for the sake of having images. I always loved having images in my head. I'm a very visual person. When I hear computer, I'm picturing a screen with a keyboard and I type and letters appear on the screen no.… were talking heavy bags of chips and wires. a lot of things that would seem pretty incomprehensible to the average person. KH: Right, yup. The TI 990 was sort of a rack monitor machine that looks like a tall version of that thing behind you, and it had a disk drive which was I believe 20 meg of disk, which is an insignificantly small amount, and it was roughly the size of a washing machine. MM: And uh compared to IBM I'm wondering and SUNY Central, or where else you saw, how do they compare? KH: The IBM environment that I left behind at SUNY Central had a huge computer room; it was probably 300 x 300 ft. And it was huge and it was full of large IBM machines each one of which was about the size of a refrigerator and there probably were 20 or 30 boxes the size of a refrigerator that made this up. Some of them were tape drives. They had huge tape drives; some were big disk drives that look like washing machines again and some were the computer itself. The machines back then were huge and they provided time sharing services only. That �was it, if you had a computer terminal hooked to one of these computers with a video display. That’s was the best you were going to get. A lot of people did what was called batch submission. They didn't have a computer terminal if they wanted to do something; they had a program that would do it for them. They would write data that were instructions on a key punch sheet and would give it to a couple of girls in the department I was working at at that point, which was the Department of Motor Vehicles. That’s where IBM had assigned me. They had two women who were full-time key punch operators. All they did was take the sheets from programmers and others and type that stuff up on punch cards which would get fed into the computer through a card reader. So, that environment would also be crude by today’s standards. Very extremely. But it was huge. But with Skidmore the difference was it was tiny. You know it was (laughs) two small computers, um virtually you know there was no key punch operators there was no card reader there was none of that. Few people had access to the computers and everyone else had nothing. MM: So, I’m happy to hear you say when you arrived at Skidmore on the personal side it did feel very welcoming. It did feel very friendly so that’s nice but as for the computer science side you said, well I have a lot of work to do. So, you were head of what is today known as the IT Department and was then known as Computer Services. KH: Right. It was known as Computer Services when I was hired. The position I was hired into was called Director of Computer Services. And, it was new in the sense it was the first IT position that the College had. The academic computer had been operated by two part-time faculty members who probably got a little course relief for doing the work they did. I'm not sure that was it or if they were still teaching too. MM: I’ll interrupt you here. Leo mentioned the name Margeret Riper is that… KH: Guider it was Guider. She was a math professor and the other professor who spent quite a bit of time on the equipment was someone named Robert Jones who may still be here in the Economics Department. He was here last I knew. MM: Ok, ok ok; and just before moving on Leo also… I haven't confirmed with you what Leo said in the basement of Barrett there was a Burrows B800. KH: No, it was a Univak system, 3 system 80, that was the administrative computer. That was the one being run by consultants. There were two full-time people there from the consultant. Really one full-time person who came and went a lot, was there quite a bit in the basement of Barrett. Thats how we started. When I was hired it was just me that was it. I was the first person and I shortly thereafter hired Leo [Geoffrion], who mostly worked with the academic computing side of the house, and another person Sam McGaughey who worked on the administrative side. �MM: Alright excellent that was what my next question was going to be. So what were the first actions you took as head of Computer Services and would you be making those hires? What else comes to mind of the first steps … KH: The hires were important. I realized very quickly that one person wasn't going to be able to do the job, so I worked to hire those guys which helped a great deal. Another thing was looking for where the weaknesses were in the current system and trying to figure out a preliminary plan for moving forward more effectively. Even before hiring the staff, I knew first of all with the academic computer that we needed to have more terminals hooked to it, so that more students could interact with it at the same time. It was four terminals in the first year (I was hiring Leo at the same time), so I don't exactly know the sequence or anything but within a year we had that four up to 12 ,which was helpful. The computer wasn't particularly good for the jobs it was asked to do or could do, but at least people could get at it. That was the best we could do as sort of a first wave and we did do that. On the administrative side, I didn't like the whole plan cause what they were doing was they had spent probably a couple of years by the time I got there developing software for the Business Office, the accounting software. Written it from scratch and their plan was to once they finished that to move on and go to the Registrar’s Office and write a registration system from scratch for the Registrar’s Office then move to the…. The experience I had in software development at that point told me that that was going to take them 20 years. You know it was just not going to get done, and perfectly adequate software was available for purchase and so right away I decided I was going to press for elimination of the contract for the consultants. Scrapping the work they had done which was going to be a hard sell because there were a couple proponents in the Business Office that believed in it. And buying a set of packaged software that would serve the entire administrative college environment. That was a struggle that took a lot of time for the first couple of years. I did convince my boss that continuing on the way you were going was not good. He put together… he had me put together a committee of people to go out and look at software and make a recommendation, and we spent a year maybe traveling around to different colleges talking to people who had package software installed already and doing those investigations. We did a thorough investigation and we terminated the agreement with the consultant, bought a new computer, put system on it, and moved forward from there. MM: Wow sounds like some bold moves. It’s what needed to be done, I guess. KH: It felt like it did. You know and they were fairly bold, I think. MM: Ok, well you had the experience now. Now we know a bit more about your projects. I'm wondering about these first years 1981, 1985, I'm wondering more about what daily life would look like ,...where was your office. �KH: I moved around a fair amount. My office was originally on the end of the little corridor I referred to earlier on the 3d floor Palamountain. Basically, if you took the center steps of Palamountain where you come in the front door facing west, I mean north, I mean you go up the big stairs turn right and go down into the first corridor that goes to the right. My office was down that corridor around a corner. I don't know who’s really now. It’s mostly English Department, I think. MM: Yeah, that’s right. KH: And as you go down that corridor you see some very funny shallow offices.... Those are the area we had our computer terminals in those early years. So, that was that. We were in that location for a few years. I'm not sure quite how many, for a few. The other area was the basement of Barrett center. I never had an office down there but once I hired Stan and we began and transition of system from the consultant to our new software, Stan’s office was down there and he was actually… (LAUGHS) he was in a totally unacceptable space. But he didn’t complain. I mean, literally, you go in the basement of Barrett Center; there was an office there. There was also a step up and a door that led to a totally unfinished basement. That was his office and you know it was unfinished concrete pipes hanging down all kinds of weird stuff. MM: Any windows? KH: But no windows; no windows. It was a total cave. The only window was out in the hall on the door and that was it. MM: It makes me wonder, do you feel like the administration respected the work that you did as a computer scientist? Were you important to them? KH: I never thought of it as a reflection of our importance; it was a reflection of growing pains and lack of space. The college campus in general was very crowded everybody was squeezed in. You know, there were numerous buildings that didn't exist at the time. So, a lot of staff was squeezed into space that was inadequate, so we kept it. We took it and we lived with it. And you know as I said what I don't remember is how many years it was but eventually things changed and we moved along. MM: So, correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like we have a picture of the early 80s. I wonder if it’s time on our timeline now to move onto to around 1986 from what I understand is that when AIMS came to campus? KH: Actually it was 1983 that AIMS came to campus.. MM: Ok..., AIMS, for those listening, Academic Information Management System. This is the computing system that you brought to campus. This is what you brought to campus to have everyone run on. �LH: To replace the UNIVAC that was running the administrative application. It didn't do direct academic support at all. It was all administration stuff, but it was it was a very all-encompassing administration system. It included an alumni development software area, a registrar’s system, a student affairs, business office, pay roll personnel. I mean it really every major administrative area to the college had a module that came with AIMS. They weren't all perfect with Skidmore’s operation. As something general never could be, so we modified it a bit to meet Skidmore’s needs in certain areas. Some areas needed more modification than others, and we added a number of modules on our own. It had a nice tool kit that came with it, so along the way I had hired a couple of additional programmers. I'm not sure I could tell you the years that happened. In administrative computing we had a couple of extra people who began modifying the system and enhancing it to meet Skidmore’s needs. MM: I’m hearing that you gave administrators, department heads they each have their own computer units? KH: Well, it was an integrated software system but there were modules- I guess that’s a better way to put it - AIMS itself was an umbrella that had a dozen modules perhaps. Each module supported a different administrative area. And they were all consistent in terms of the user interface. They all looked the same, operated the same way, shared the same set of data. One of the things that AIMS had that was kind of important back then, that a lot of systems did, was called people files. You entered data if it was an alumni request to enter somebody’s information, it went in the people file. The basic demographic information was kept in a common database and then more sensitive information was attached separately. It was a unified system which was helpful. MM: Ok, ok. We’re going to hit another landmark around here. Around July 1987 we got a new president, President David Porter. KH: Wonderful man. I love David Porter. He was great. He wasn't the sort of stand-up inspirational kind of person that Joseph Palamountain was, but he was a wonderful human person. He was just an average guy, an everyday guy. He was funny. He would sit up in front of the faculty, he punned -he was a great punner. He was important because there was some faculty unrest and the kind of thing that was not unusual in an academic environment and he helped unify the faculty. Made the faculty happier than they were perhaps. I might be overstating it, but David Porter was a wonderful person. I have great respect for him. He was a tremendous intellect and a sad loss actually I… we lost him recently and it’s a great shame. MM: That was one of our first assignments for interviewing class..to practice what a good interview was. This same project interviewing him …sounds like a great guy. Moving on let’s wrap up the 1980s. So, at the end of this decade-I mean when we started this decade-the administration seemed kind of like a mess. You're telling me that the administration and registrar work was contracted outside companies. Campus wasn't doing a lot of its work on its own campus. �KH: No, no - almost none of it. And again, the times were different you have to keep in mind that by installing AIMS we at least started to get around that problem and bring everything in house and by the mid 80s we had accomplished that. We had also Leo and his staff, we had a couple of extra people there by now too. Realized that the TI990 was never going to do the job for academic support that we needed on that end of things and most of our sister institutions were using digital VAX machines. And Leo no doubt talked to you about this, but sometime in the 80’s we managed to jettison the TI990 and replaced it with a couple of digital VAXes that were much more appropriate to academic computing. There was software available that had been developed on other colleges that you could get that did things that our faculty wanted to and students wanted to do. It was a great move going to those digital VAXes. I thought by that point, by probably the late 80’s we were well aligned with where we ought to be. We still might have been behind in sense that we had a lot of catch-up work, but we were going in the right direction. Also, somewhere along the way we moved. You asked about space. We kept the space in the basement of Barrett but, at some point, we moved our operation down to the library walkway area which was rehabbed to hold us. There was a merger with telephone services somewhere along in there too. The dates are really hazy for me. But I took over running the telephone system, which was essentially a computer. There was virtually nobody else who had that experience so we moved in the telephone switch that was down in that basement area. We moved the computer center in there and my office and most of the other offices wound up there as well. MM: Ok, ok KH: That was probably in the 80’s well it might have been 1990 I'm not sure. MM: I don’t know if you were in touch with student body. Student culture was like, what the spirit of campus was, if things were more optimistic than they were? KH: Well, I don't know. The biggest exposure we had to students was the students who worked for us, and we always managed to find a good group of students. There weren't huge numbers interested in technology at that point in time, but there were a few. There were amazing ones, students who had in their high school run a computer system for the high school, and we managed to hire them as they came along and use them as a lab assistants and so forth. So, we had that kind of experience with students, but it was a small sampling. From my perspective, I think there’s always a certain amount of turmoil on a college campus - as there should be. I think a college campus without turmoil wouldn't be a college campus. I don't think it was all that different, but my world was smaller. MM: Ok. I wish we didn't have to go through things so quickly but we do have 20 minutes left till we reach our 1-hour mark. So, I'm going to ask about the first half of the 1990s. What were you working on at this time? �KH: Well somewhere along the line personal computers started to show up and that really rocked our boat in many ways. Everybody wanted one. Everybody wanted a Mac or actually even earlier ones. Because we had established relationship with Digital for our VAX computers, Digital was going to come out with an early IBM PC clone called the Rainbow and we agreed to purchase a bunch of those. And it was a serious error. The Rainbow never sold. It was not successful. And I don't think we purchased more than a dozen or so, but that was not successful at all. So, we backed away from that. We were sort of stumbling and fumbling with what to do with this because we didn't have the budget to get everybody a new Apple 2 or whatever the early technology had been or even a Rainbow. We did what we could. We got some out there; we tried to adapt and bring in new ones. So that was kind of a turmoil for us, getting from a sort of time-shared environment with a central computer and bunch of terminals to one where people had on their desktops personal computers that were a little imitation of what we have today. MM: You were talking about faculty and staff having their own computers in their offices? KH: Right, that was just starting. Students were still probably getting most of their computing time through labs that we had set up. You went to a lab, you used a computer or a terminal that connected to one of our VAXes, and that was your academic support, but faculty were eager to get the micros: Apples, whatever. So I’d say the first presence of that kind of technology on campus was in various offices. The administrative computer stayed kind of a time-shared system too, so we weren't doing that in administrative areas. MM: Ok ok and so first the computer took up a lot of time. What else is going on any updates on AIMS? KH: Well actually have to go back to the 80s to go back to AIMS. The company we purchased AIMS from went out of business, so we committed to continuing with the software and modifying it to meet our needs, so it really satisfied 80-90% of our needs. We figured we could keep it up to date; we could modify it and go forward from there. We modified AIMS we kept it going and in fact it ran through the 80’s, 90’s until 2005, so we got wonderful service out of AIMS and uh yeah what can I say. (laughs) MM: Any other the pace doesn't have to be as aggressive. Are there any special incidents or stories that are coming to mind that you feel like you have to share to give us a good picture of what this time was like? Anything special? KH: Hm that’s a good one. um MM: You don't have to have any stories, but if so they're good to like… KH: Odd things happened. You know, we… MM: what odd things? �KH: We had a…technology was booming of course. And Xerox, I think it was, came out with a wild photographic printer that was; I'm not sure if it was Xerox but I think it was. It was supposed to be wonderful, and we managed to get a grant to get one of those. So, we got it and we opened it up, set it up, and really could not figure how to make any decent use of it. So, we boxed it up put it away and about 2 years later one of the faculty members of the art department came over and asked about it. And they were incensed that we had stuck it away and not used it. We had that kind of stuff that was going on; we were adapting to technology and learning new things just like everybody else and in some cases. What was interesting was the source of all knowledge on both computers resided in the computer center in the 80’s, and then as we got into the 90’s knowledge spread, and so there were people out there in faculty departments who in a particular narrow area knew more about computers than we did. So, it was a difficult transition psychologically for us to do that. MM: I’m curious, what did the arts faculty member want with that computer? LH: He thought we could have done something with it. And didn't really realize we had it. I think it was a question of the thing just got lost in the shuffle. He thought it could have been useful. We couldn’t make anything good out of it but that was the kind of thing that was happening, cause expertise was popping up in faculty areas and usually in a very narrow disciple. But nonetheless, it was expertise, and as computers got more and more capable by definition everybody knew a little bit less about certain areas. So, it was that kind of a conflict. Some of that was going on in that point in time as well. There was a faculty member who was into Next computers. They were kind of a black box. A Steve Jobs company that got kicked out of Apple, and we decided that we didn't think those were in the best interest of the college but there was a faculty member in the music department who did. There was that kind of conflict that happened periodically it was about growing pains and direction and a variety of things of that sort. MM: We’re at 1995 now, when you arrived Skidmore was in the era of doing everything by paper. Course registration you know, you get called, every department has its table, you have an index card to pick which class. You pick them all up hand it to the registrar that was your schedule admissions; everything all the records for all papers. By 1995 how much of this changed? KH: By 1995 it had all changed. I wouldn't say i think they might have still been doing the area registrations even though the software we have was capable of doing online registration. They had a variety of reasons for that. They hold onto things for a long time, but virtually everything else was moving forward with online support. Admission was done greatly in an online application. But , you know, the data entered it when it got here and from that point on was pretty much handled online. The alumni office had all their records online. So, by 1995 everything was really greatly different than it had been in 1981. Running a lot smoother and much more automated. Yeah. �MM: Alright now I'm asking about this particular time 1995 because there is a big change here I want to ask about. As Leo has informed me, his story goes that the school decided that AIMS as a system by mid 90’s the administration, as Leo tells me, our old custom system that’s not really sustainable, We need a standard system that’s more universal. They started talking and decided to phase out AIMS looking for something else. Leo tells me that you approved that and that was as the director of the computer science department. Do you have anything to day about that? KH: No, you know, it wasn't a sudden thing. AIMS, we were supporting AIMS, it was doing the job but technology was changing as technology does, so AIMS at its heart was a time-shared system where terminals provided access to a central computer. To change that so that it fully integrated desktop technology, desktop computers, would have been definitely a major rewrite, and we weren't doing that. What we were doing was supporting it if the registrar needed to be able to have a report of students that was not a standard report, we created one for them. If an office needed to be able to do a process differently this year from the way they did it last year, we would make that change. But the change would always be within the limitations of the technology. Which meant there was time-share with the terminal access. When people started saying I want to put my MAC on my desk, and I want to have it do this and integrate with the system, that was another ball game. It was a really big technology ball game. So, we could see the handwriting was on the wall…you clearly had to...we could keep AIMS doing things that people needed, but in a way that was very old fashioned. So, I agreed that it needed to be done. And we all did what Skidmore does best, form a group, went out and did a lot of time looking at alternatives. Spent quite a bit of time looking at ways to go. At that point in time, we decided to become… affiliate with Oracle on a pilot project, which again was in hindsight a mistake, but Oracle up to Larry Ellison was committed to education as a marketplace and we would on the ground floor helping the software develop. So, we did that; we jumped in and that was actually…the seeds of that may have begun in 1995 but the actual conversion from AIMS to oracle occurred in 2005. MM: And to continue that particular storyline as for computer system…turns out Oracle didn't really do the job because people…? KH: Larry Ellison’s commitment turned out to be not as strong as one would have thought. He basically said he was committed to education no matter what. He bought People Soft and said this is our solution. People Soft at the time and he looked at it thought it’s too big it’s something that’s meant for hugeness … Oracle was, too; I think that’s part of the mistake there. We need to start from scratch we need to take a look. And the system that the college wound up purchasing, Banner at that point was one we had looked at numerous times in the past. It was a system of old. It had been around a long time, but they had a big staff. They set it up to date they modernized it. There are merits to being in an environment where similar institutions are using the same piece of software. �MM: We’re not done yet. I just want to just come to the modern day. We’re still on Banner, aren’t we? KH: Banner is what we’re in. I assume we'll be on Banner for a long time. Now we’re committed to it. Banner is a product that is successful in the marketplace and therefore gets updated. So. I think the College will use Banner for a long time. It’s not a perfect product by any means, but it does seem successful, and one thing I've done since leaving Skidmore is worked on a consulting basis to convert a lot of that old AIMS data into Banner. Especially the student data. So much of the data going back to 1983, and in fact some that was converted earlier back into the 60s, is now in Banner. MM: Have you still been coming to campus? KH: I come up here. I come up to walk my dog up here a lot. I do some consulting as I said. So, I come up periodically to meet with the staff in the IT department. I do some software development, mostly data conversions stuff at this point. I support a couple of systems that I wrote in the days before I left Skidmore. So yeah, I still have technical connections here and i still love the place. I still come up here and walk around. Skidmore was very good to me and I love the place. MM: Ok, so we’re going to be around modern day, so I'm going be asking about some of the reflections you have. One thing, what made you decide to retire when you did? KH: Um one of the things that we had to do in the late 90’s, again we were still supporting AIMS even thought the idea of moving beyond AIMS was there at that point; that was still 5 years out. And as we approach the year 2000 there was tremendous pressure about computer systems failing. A lot of people thought it was going to be a disaster. Many systems only stored a 2-digit year and once you got to the year 2000… It got an amazing amount of press but there were issues there and in AIMS in particular there were some Y2K issues, as they were called att that point. So, my staff and I did a tremendous amount of work in that last year trying to get AIMS ready for Y2K, and it involved changing programs throughout the system, and while we were doing that we also had to keep up with the flow of requests for new things. Everybody always wants something new or different, and one of the things the College wanted was to develop a new purchasing support system. All this was happening at once. So, it was a tremendous amount of work through 1999 and into 2000. I felt burned out quite honestly. I decided i was ready to retire. So, I stepped down and was convinced by my boss to work an extra 5 years on a part-time basis. Which was very nice for me and I helped get some things done for the college. MM: when that time did come to retire, you left the campus a whole college than when you first found it? KH: I do believe so �MM: Alright and you deserve some credit for changing that. KH: i do (laughs, oh yes MM: I’m wondering how you changed over those times. Did your relationship change to the college? Did you remain static the whole time you were here? KH: No, I had different bosses. My unit got moved around a little bit. I inherited some areas. like I mentioned - telephone services and those things. So, my experience grew. I learned a lot of things; I learned to work for different people. When I came I worked for the Provost, who was the Academic Vice President, so i was connected to the academic side of the house, but I always had to balance this administrative computing and academic computing things. Initially I reported to the Academic Dean. Somewhere along the line I was transferred to work for the business operations, so suddenly then my boss was the Vice President for Business Affairs. I had great working relationships with both those people. So, working for an academic dean there was a lot of concern about academic computing issues. Working for the business vice president there was a lot more concern about administrative issues. So, I watched that kind of shift occur and adapted to it as I went. I actually enjoyed it; it gave me some different perspective. You know, an academic institution like any institution has to have a structure to support it to keep it going. The administrative stuff can be mundane. You have to have a human resources department; you’ve got to have an accounting department. Those things are mundane, but without them, they're the structure of the institution, without them you don't have an institution. On the other hand, the main purpose of an institution is an education so the academic side of things is very important. So, I got a nice view of that from different working arrangements with different bosses in different departments. MM: Nice so, sounds like you definitely had to learn a lot. You look back often to think about the things you would have done different knowing what you know now? KH: Well certain things. Might not even have gone with AIMS, given that their company was going out fairly quickly. I mean the product worked; we can’t complain. It worked from 1982 or 3, when we purchased it, up till 2005. That’s a tremendous lifetime for a software product, but we would have committed to something that had ongoing support so that’s a decision. I guess I would say I would do differently in hindsight; I knew what was going on. The other one was going with Oracle. We definitely shouldn't have done that; that was a mistake. So, those two big administrative things were different. In terms of academic computing i don't know that i would have done a lot differently. I mean moving from the TI990 to the digital VAX computers was a good decision, and it was important. And we did the best we could to deliver the onslaught of computer interests and I think we did that fairly well. So, my regrets were few I’d say. I think we did well. �MM:Alright, sounds like an excellent career I mean when you did step down from head of IT, did you meet the next head of IT? Did you have any advice? KH: I did i don't have the feeling he was interested in any advice, but I did meet him and we chatted occasionally. I would go talk to him at least once a week, and he was very different from me. His style was very different and his interests and so forth were very different, so i can’t say I agreed with him but that’s to be expected. Things change when you get a new leadership. MM: Advice in general as a computer scientist do you think there’s things the IT department remembers from your time? KH: Well, I think the biggest thing in an environment like Skidmore is listening to your constituents, go out and talk to them, that would be my advice to today’s IT staff. Get as much input as you can. Meet with people. Set up little groups, perhaps, of people with special interest and commonality. Meet with them. Stay in touch with thinking at the academic department level. uhh and in administrative computing I don't think that…it sort of happens by itself; it’s more of a structured environment. The academic environment can be very unstructured. Faculty departments can be little fiefdoms in a way, so they can kind of go off on their own. You really need to keep in touch and bring people together as much as possible. MM: i just realized, actually, that sounds a little bit familiar. It’s kind of the same you first found when you came to Skidmore. Think you'd help continue that and do you think it’s still around today? KH: It’s a little hard for me to judge, I guess, but i think so. I think the place is hugely different from the way it was. There’s always certain amount of dissent again, but a college environment should have that. I think the place is pretty similar. By the time you're retired you do see some changes, though. The building of the Tang, the building of Tisch and a lot of other … a lot of student body got more diverse, a lot more prestigious. It still pretty much feels the same. From my limited perspective it seems very much the same. A lot of people turnover has been really great, but very few of the people who represent the old Skidmore to me in terms of leadership aren't around anymore. So, it’s all different people, some of whom I don't know. But it still feels the same when I come up here. So, yes, i think it hasn't changed a lot. MM: We’ve reached the end of our hour. Before we go I’d like to ask is there anything in our quest to create a good portrait of your career contributions, Skidmore from your eyes, is there anything we've missed in creating this portrait? KH: I think we really covered it pretty well. I mean, I think i came to Skidmore at a time of great change in the technology industry and in Skidmore, so it was an interesting moment in time. The college needed a lot more computing. Students were expecting it, clamoring for it, and �computers were changing dramatically. So, I came here at the start of something. It’s one of those things that always meant a lot to me. I was able to get in on the true ground floor. I was the first IT, so I participated in hiring. By the time I left here in 2000 I had participated in hiring everybody who worked for IT at Skidmore, and that would be it I’d say. I think we covered it very well. MM: Ken, thank you so much for coming in today. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Max McDermott Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ken Hapeman Location The location of the interview Scribner Library Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Michelle Cohn Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit April 26, 2017 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ken Hapeman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 5, 2017 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Retiree Memory Project Language A language of the resource Eng Bibliographic Citation A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible. "Interview with Ken Hapeman" Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project, accessed April 26, 2017 Description An account of the resource Ken Hapeman was born in 1944 and grew up in Hudson New York. He went to Hudson High school and RPI College where he graduated with a degree in psychology. At Skidmore College Hapemen was the director of computer services, the first IT position the school ever had. He worked to provide more opportunities for students to use computers as well as updating the software the college used in order to advance its technical processes too. Hapeman worked at Skidmore from 1981 until he retired. AIMS Campus Move Computer Science David Porter Engineering Program faculty relations Information Technology Joseph Palamountain Palamountain Technological Changes https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/fe55a79c8f42bfb4147ab46bec293719.jpg 3892ed4cb7fadc8eb842f81403a63782 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a5bc8fa925a5404b7be3b2455f6ad96b.mp3 d294d057639fafc339d4d5649f18d3b9 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4f8b3e4295aa36c07243430a9bd3c904.pdf dd3529f20b52d5fc0dbeab23ede068a3 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/132c41f4eadfd750431f9aa3b3737cc1.pdf 993a57633e53706747d531993d6554ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Mateo Bolado Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kenneth Klotz Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Mateo Bolado Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 1/11/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ken Klotz Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource October 25, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Springs Memory Project Language A language of the resource English Description An account of the resource This is an oral history of Ken Klotz for the Saratoga Springs Memory Project. Ken is a former faculty member of Skidmore College, Ex-Mayor of Saratoga Springs, Former Finance Commissioner, and Former Chair of the Saratoga Democratic Committee. In this one hour interview, we hear about Ken's childhood all the way to his time as the Mayor of Saratoga Springs and everything in between. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mateo Bolado, '23 Subject The topic of the resource An Oral History of Ken Klotz. Date Created Date of creation of the resource. October 25th 2019 Democratic Party Local Politics oral history Saratoga Springs Saratoga Springs Politics Skidmore College Skidmore faculty Yale