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                <text>Alexandra Gonzalez Vargas</text>
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                <text>Antes de Ser Empleada soy Madre/Before Being an Employee, I am a Mother </text>
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                <text>A pesar del cansancio y la tristeza que se ve en mi rostro, Tengo la fuerza, tiempo y una sonrisa desde lo más profundo de mi alma para mi familia, ellos que son el tesoro más grande que me ha dado Dios.&#13;&#13;Despite the tiredness and sadness that is seen in my face, I have strength, time and a smile from the depths of my soul for my family, they are the greatest treasure that God has given me.</text>
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                <text>Ante Dios todos somos Iguales/Before God We are all Equal&#13;</text>
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                <text>2017</text>
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                <text>Saratoga Springs, NY, USA</text>
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                <text>La igualdad y amor al prójimo que a pesar de las diferencias sociales, razas y color de piel, ante Dios todos somos iguales. No se puede juzgar a nadie sin antes tenderle una mano amiga que pueda ayudarle.&#13;&#13;Equality and love of neighbor that despite social differences, races and skin color, before God we are all equal. You cannot judge anyone without first offering him a helping hand.</text>
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              <text>Krystle Nowhitney Hernandez</text>
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                <text>Nicole Tineo Gonzalez</text>
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            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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                <text>Compartir/Sharing</text>
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            <name>Date</name>
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                <text>2017</text>
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                <text>Saratoga Springs, NY, USA</text>
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                <text>Cualquier cosa que pueda compartir con mis hermanos u otras personas, puede mejorar la sonrisa de muchos.&#13;&#13;Anything I can share with my siblings or other people can improve the smile of many.</text>
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            <name>License</name>
            <description>A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.</description>
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                <text>This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.</text>
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              <text>Krystle Nowhitney Hernandez</text>
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                <text>Nicole Tineo Gonzalez</text>
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            <name>Title</name>
            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="7731">
                <text>Pato Sin Cabeza/Headless Duck</text>
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            <name>Alternative Title</name>
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            <name>Date</name>
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                <text>2017</text>
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                <text>Saratoga Springs, NY, USA</text>
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                <text>Antes de juzgar,  observa y conoce detenidamente, ponte en su lugar para poder entender  quién es y lo que pasa por su mente.&#13;&#13;Before judging, observe and recognize carefully, put yourself in a place to be able to understand who someone is and what goes on in their mind.</text>
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            <name>License</name>
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                <text>This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.</text>
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                <text>Digital Photograph, JPEG</text>
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            <name>Creator</name>
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                <text>Josué C. Soto</text>
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            <name>Title</name>
            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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                <text>Paso Estrecho/Narrow Passage</text>
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            <name>Date</name>
            <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="7742">
                <text>2017</text>
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            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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                <text>Saratoga National Historical Park, Stillwater, NY, USA</text>
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            <name>Description</name>
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                <text>Difícil de entender el camino tan estrecho y complicado que de oportunidades que existen para los inmigrantes como este estrecho de agua.&#13;&#13;It is difficult to understand a path so narrow and complicated which gives opportunities to immigrants such as these narrows.</text>
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          <element elementId="67">
            <name>License</name>
            <description>A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="7745">
                <text>This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.</text>
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            <name>Format</name>
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              <elementText elementTextId="7746">
                <text>Digital Photograph, JPEG</text>
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              <text>Krystle Nowhitney Hernandez</text>
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            <name>Creator</name>
            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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                <text>Josué C. Soto</text>
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            <name>Title</name>
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                <text>Recuerdo de mi Infancia/Memories of my Childhood</text>
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            <name>Alternative Title</name>
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                <text>2017</text>
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                <text>Saratoga National Historical Park, Stillwater, NY, USA</text>
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                <text>Hermosos atardeceres me trae a mi mente, cuando la caída del sol penetraba los pastizales crecidos haciéndome sentir la felicidad de estar viviendo al aire libre.&#13;&#13;Beautiful sunsets come to mind, when the fall of the sun passed through the fields of grass reminding me of the happiness of living outdoors.</text>
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            <name>License</name>
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                <text>This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.</text>
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                    <text>Interview with Susan (“Gibbsie”) Gibbs '65 by Charlotte Bracklo '19,
COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019.
CHARLOTTE BRACKLO [00:00]: Um, so where were you from before you decided to attend
Skidmore's nursing program?
SUSAN GIBBS [00:07]: I was from Wellesley, Massachusetts.
CB [00:11]: Okay. And how did you hear about Skidmore or the program or what, what drew
you to it?
SG [00:18]: Oh Gosh. Well, I knew I wanted to become a nurse and I guess I just heard by word
of mouth, um, about Skidmore's program and that it was supposed to be an excellent,
excellent program. And I had a cousin who was, who went to Skidmore, but she, she was
not in the nursing program, but I think I asked her a little bit about that and she said, ‘Oh
yeah, it was supposed to be very good.’ So, so I applied. It was that easy. I didn't know a
whole lot about it before I started.
CB [00:50]: That's great. So, did your family have a background in the field of medicine or
nursing?
SG [00:55]: No. Nothing. Nothing at all, no. My mother apparently had wanted to be a nurse in
her youth, but her father wouldn't let her, he didn't think that was appropriate so that the
idea blew out the window.
CB [01:07]: Okay. So, so what drew you to nursing in the first place?
SG [01:12]: Uh, I don't, it's kind of hard to tell. I think, I think maybe I had seen some movie, I
don't remember what it is at the moment where it was about nursing or about a nurse.
And I thought that that was fascinating because originally for years and years I, I had
wanted to be a preschool teacher and because I've, I've worked with children my whole
life and I, and I, I knew I wanted to be a pediatric nurse, but I didn't know I wanted to be
a nurse to begin with. But all of a sudden it just hit me like a bolt of lightning out of the
blue that, oh, I'm going to be a nurse. So, I went on with it.
CB [01:50]: Cool. And what was your educational background like going into Skidmore?
SG [01:56]: Uh, I went to a school called Dana Hall, which is in Wellesley and got a very good,
in my opinion, and very good general education there. So I was, I was ready for college,
definitely.
CB [02:11]: Great. And you kind of already got to this, but what, um, was there anything specific
that drew you to Skidmore's program or was it really the fact that your cousin was there?
SG [02:24]: No, we weren't that close. So it was, it was the nursing program that drew me to it

�because it, it had a, just a really, really good, uh, what do you call it? Now my English is
failing. They said good things about it. Yeah.
CB [02:41]: Um, what was your sense of the program before, before you started there?
SG [02:49]: Um, really nothing. I just knew that it was one, I think it was one of the top four
schools in the country. And I knew I wanted to get a baccalaureate education and not just
go to a three-year nursing school because that was, well, that had started a few years
before, but, uh, it was really becoming quite, uh, the thing to do back then. And I know
several people that I both knew and had heard of, uh, had gone to a uh, gone to a three
year school and then went back afterwards to get their degree. So, I figured I might as
well kill two birds with one stone. Yeah. And it sounded like a school I wanted to go to.
Just generally speaking.
CB [03:35]: Um, so tell me more about your experience in the program. Anything from classes,
professors that stood out? Any specific memories?
SG [03:47]: Well, we had a very, quite a stringent program because we, we had to declare our,
uh, our major before we were admitted to Skidmore. Even, I mean, I was in, it was, it was
a very stringent program. So, our freshman year, uh, all we had...We didn't have to take, I
don't know what you guys do today, but we did have to take freshman English. That was,
that was required of us. And, but all the other freshmen had to take a course in logic and
we didn't have, everyone had to take it. They had to, there was no question. But you
know, they couldn't get out of it. And we heard all these different questions they were
asking and we kind of felt out of it in the dorm, because everybody was talking about
logic, but we were talking about anatomy and physiology. No, but we had, we just had
freshman English that year and um, uh, other than nursing, all the other things were
nursing programs or uh courses, so, so we had our work cut out for us. And then we had,
we were two years in New York City and we were there the summer after our sophomore
year for eight weeks. So, it was actually a four and a half year program. But when we got
back to campus on, on our senior, in our senior year, we were, we only had one nursing
program, which was one nursing course, which was a, a sort of a highfalutin course
about... It was, it was nothing clinical about it at all. Our clinical work was in New York
City and then, then we were allowed to take just about whatever we wanted to when we
got back onto campus. And we were allowed to take 400-level classes and certain things
if they had room for us you know. And we weren't expected to do our, well, we were
expected to do our best, but we weren't expected to be the best of the class. I remember
taking a 400-level course with a bunch of, everybody was seniors, you know, and um, I
was the only nurse in there and they were all English majors. And I remember one time
one of the professors who was a full professor and had a doctorate, she asked a question
about one of the, it was Shakespeare. And, uh, asked a question about one of his plays
and everybody sat there like bumps on logs and I raised my hand and I answered the
question. She said, ‘you're absolutely right.’ And then she said to them, ‘see girls, that,
and that's a nurse.’ I'll never forget that. That's also that, that was the program. You
know, we, we didn't have any choice except for our senior year. We had no choice as to
what we were going to take. But that was okay because we knew we had to. That was

�fine. We had some wonderful, wonderful, uh, teachers, especially in our, well in all of
our years. But the, the freshman year, my favorite was, was our anatomy and physiology
teacher. We had to dissect cats and we couldn't always find the organs or the veins or the
nerves or whatever we were looking for. And we would say to her, her name was Eve
Beverly Field. And we would say to her, ‘Ms. Field, uh, I can't find the,’ well, let's say
the liver, which was not easy. I mean, that wasn't so hard to overlook. But anyway, and
we said, ‘could you please show me where it is?’ And she would wave her hand over the
corpse and she’d say, ‘right around in there.’ So, you were back to square one. No, but
we had, we had very, we had very good teachers, I think. I think I liked all of them for, I
liked all of them all of the time actually. Yeah, and of course the ones we had when we
were in New York City were, they were all nurses themselves, except for one who was a
psychologist and had a different course with us. So, a couple of the people that were
teachers in New York, were uh, were Skidmore graduates themselves. Three of them
were I think so that, that was nice.
CB [07:54]: That's cool. So, tell me, tell me more about your time in New York.
SG [08:00]: Oh boy. That was fun. It was, we stayed, our dorm was, belonged to the New York
University Medical School and it was a 14-story building right on the East River and
right near the hospital, which was the New York University Medical Center. And uh, we
had the two top floors for Skidmore people. And there was no, I mean we just had, they
were dorm rooms. There was no kitchen, there was no nothing. And I was just thinking of
this this morning, I think I ate for dinner my entire two years down there I ate BLT
sandwiches. There was a snack bar in the complex there and we all ate there. We didn't
have any money for anything, you know.
So, then there was a, there was a restaurant on 2nd Avenue, which was run by an Italian
man who for some reason, I guess previous, lots of previous Skidmore students had gone
in to eat at his place. His name was Leno and he loved Skidmore students. He had all the
class pictures on the walls of his restaurant. And if we got very, very hungry and had no
money, we could go in and eat for free and then we could pay him when he, when we got
some money from our parents. We weren't allowed to work while we were students. That
what that was, yeah, that was very, very strict. Because, uh, our, our instructors were
responsible for what we did and we weren't allowed to practice any nursing, you know,
on its own. So, so we, so we didn't have any money unless somebody's parents gave them
a lot of money or something. And it was, it was an experience to live in the city. Uh, we
had one in our class who was from, I don't think any of us, slept the first two nights we
were there because it was so noisy. And we had, we had one girl who was from a small
town in Missouri and when we got to Saratoga Springs, she couldn't sleep at night
because of all the traffic on Union Avenue, which you people don't have as a problem
that, but there was not a lot of traffic on Union Avenue. So, I don't think she slept the first
week we were in New York. It was so noisy, but we got used to it. We got used to it.
CB [10:23]: And how did your time in Saratoga compare to your time in New York?
SG [10:28]: Oh, they were completely different. You just can't compare them. We grew up, we

�really grew up quickly. We noticed a big difference when we got back to campus as
seniors because, well of course what we...our field to study of course was, you know, we
ran into a lot of really serious mind-boggling things then and uh, which we had to face up
to. So, where the, the kids on campus were, they just were regular college students doing
regular college... I'm sure plenty of them had serious things they had to think about and
stuff. But it was, it was completely different.
Then of course the pace of the life in New York City was completely different from, from
uh, up in Saratoga. And we had a different campus that, that time, the campus you guys
are on now was bought when we were freshmen. And I remember we had a day, the
whole school got a day off, and we called it Woodlawn day and everybody went out to
the place where the current campus is and we sawed down small trees and gathered brush
and made big piles and lit bonfires for a whole day, which was helping so that they could
take the first shovel and start working on the new campus. So, we were never there and it
was nothing in our senior year either, everything on the old campus. So, so I've never had
the, the privilege to be on the new one. Except that I've been at, to a couple of reunions,
but never lived there or anything.
CB [12:10]: So you just mentioned that you ran into a lot of mind-boggling situations. Is there
anything that stands out that you would like to share?
SG [12:180: Eh, well, the way that a lot of really sick patients, you know, and I, I remember, I
remember the very first patient I had, who was an older man and I had to, I had to give
him a shot. I had never given anybody a shot before, so I was petrified. And he was, he
was getting a pain injection, so he, he was looking forward to the shot, which was good,
but he was, his skin was like leather. And I didn't stick the needle in hard enough and it
bounced back. And then I thought, oh, I'm giving up, I'm quitting, I'm quitting. And my
instructor, who was a very demanding, wonderful person and she said, ‘Do it again,’ and
the man groaned and all that. So, he got his shot. Oh, the first time was the worst. And I
had a classmate, oh gosh, this was... We had never been on the wards before or anything.
And she had a patient who wanted to use his urinal and she didn't know what a urinal
was, and it was standing on the bedside table. And he said to her at that time, they were,
they were metal, you see, so you couldn't see through them. I don't know what they are
these days, probably plastic. But anyway, uh, he said to her, and here's this sweet young
thing, right? So, he didn't want, he didn't, you know, he tried to be polite and he said, uh,
‘I would like that, please, is it full?’ And she said, ‘well, just a minute, I'll take a look.’
And she said, ‘Yes it is, where is your bouquet?’ She thought it was a vase with water in
it and he had to tell her what it was. No, and I know one of, one of my first patients on
our medical rotation died of cancer. That was not good. And my first patient that I had on
pediatrics, who was a little baby, I don't remember what was wrong with him, I
remember his name, but I don't remember what was wrong with him. I had him for two
days and he died. You know, I was, what, 19 years old so that's, you know, a lot of stuff
like that and you know, there were really, really sick patients, so...
CB [14:31]: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Um, so moving on, like what was your path after
Skidmore?

�SG [14:41]: Well, I was offered a job at the University Hospital in pediatrics and I thought, oh, I
thought that was very nice. But then I thought, I should probably try a different hospital,
not be in the same place. So, I put in an application to Babies Hospital at Columbia and I
wanted to, I wanted to work in New York, so that was fine, I moved there. And uh, I
worked there for about three months and I hated it. And all the, almost all the nurses that
were there, um, had gone to Columbia Presbyterian School and they were kind of snooty
about it, you know, and they didn't like people from other schools and, and... Oh, I just,
you know, of course I had to work Christmas, right? I knew I would have to do that
because I was low man on the totem pole. And I thought, well, I was working nights and
I thought, well at least I'll see the little kids wake up and see their stockings hanging on
their beds, but when I went home, none of the children were awake. So that was horrible.
So, I held out as long as I could. And then I went back down to University Hospital and
asked the...spoke with the supervisor in pediatrics and I said, ‘is it still possible for me to
come here?’ And she said, ‘I thought you'd be back.’ And uh, so I, I, you know, resigned
from the job up there and the woman said, ‘Oh, you'll never get...and I'm not going to
give you a good resume or anything.’ And I thought, well, I said, ‘It's okay. I have
another job all lined up.’ So that's, you know. So, I was there for seven years and then I
decided to come here and I've been here ever since. So, I've worked full time with no
leave of absence for, well, a couple of months, you know, and that is at one point before I
came over here, but I've worked 100% for 47 years.
CB [16:37]: Wow.
SG [16:39]: Yeah. On the bright side I haven't, I haven't gone on. We were encouraged to go on
and get further degrees and everything, but of course we were told to work a couple of
years before applying. And most of the grad schools, at that point, you had to have some
job experience before you got in. So, uh, and a lot of my classmates did that and, but, but
I, you know, I just wanted to be a nurse. I wanted to be at the bedside and I stayed at the
bedside for 47 years and I've never regretted it.
CB [17:10]: That's great. So, what made you move? Because now you live in, in Norway?
SG [17:17]: Yes. Um, I was, um, well I had been here on vacation several times and I just really
liked it here. So, I thought, well, I'd like to work over there for a year. And it took me
almost a year to get all my papers together and, and get everything organized and get
accepted to work here and everything. And I kept saying, oh, I can't go. That was a big
step to take, you know, I thought, oh, I can't go because my grandmothers are both
getting old and think if they die and everything. Of course, they didn't. So, and so I
finally got my papers and with some courage together and came over and I was going to
be here for a year, but that's, that's 47 years ago now. So, it's been a long year.
CB [18:02]: Wow, that's, that's cool. Um, and how did you, while you worked, how did you find
that what you had learned at Skidmore, uh, impacted or benefited you?
SG [18:14]: Oh, I mean, I couldn't do anything. I couldn't, I knew nothing about nursing before I

�started at Skidmore so it meant 350% of everything, if not 500%. Yeah. Every,
everything, everything helped. Yeah.
CB [18:27]: Oh, so how did the liberal arts education benefit you, do you think?
SG [18:32]: Oh, I knew... I could talk about other things and I knew about other things than
bedpans and urinals and blood transfusions and babies popping out and that kind of stuff.
So could you, you know, you're dealing with people and people, normal people don't talk
about, you know, medical or nursing conditions all the time. Then of course you do when
you're working as a nurse. We were, there were a bunch of us who went out for dinner
years ago over here to a restaurant. And we sat, I worked at work in an ICU here for 40
years, and that was, you know, it was pretty gory a lot of the time. And we sat there
talking about blood and poop and you know, all sorts of horrible things and laughing and
laughing. And finally, the people that were sitting at the next table, one of them leaned
over and said, ‘Do you think you people could talk about something else, please?’ So,
when you're together with a lot of people like that, you do talk a lot of job talk and stuff,
but you have to know about art and history and literature and everything else that the
world actually consists of in order to do this.
CB [19:49]: Yeah.
SG [19:49]: Yeah.
CB [19:49]: Um, so the nursing program at Skidmore closed.
SG [19:54]: Yeah.
CB [19:54]: Do you remember learning about the closing of the program and how you felt about
it?
SG [20:00]: Oh, I think we were all devastated. Just devastated. I, do you know what year it
closed? I can't remember. I graduated in '65. I'm thinking it maybe was in the early, early
seventies. Do you know?
CB [20:19]: Something around that.
SG [20:21]: Yeah, I think so. No, I, I guess they sent a letter from, from Skidmore saying that
they had to close and they had to close because people weren't applying as much
anymore. And just at the, at the time, that we graduated in '65. I remember that. I had a
classmate who was a math major and she got a job, bang, right out of college working for
IBM. She didn't know beans about computers, you know, but she knew about math and
she got the highest paying job of all the people in our class. And I think we were maybe
300, give or some, give it a little more than 300 classmates all together. And she got the
highest paying job. Amazing. And you know, so girls were just beginning to be able to
get jobs other than nurses, teachers, librarians, uh, you know, that kind of stuff, or, you
know, good old, old fashioned women's jobs where people were beginning to branch out

�and do something else.
CB [21:24]: Yeah.
SG [21:24]: So, but I remember getting that, oh, we're just, we were just devastated. Horrible.
And it was expensive. It was getting more and more expensive to live in New York. Uh, I
don't know if they lost those two dorm floors, but you know, there was a big faculty
down there and they had to live someplace in New York and they had to pay the cost of living
for New York City, which was not going down the drain. So, uh, I think that's one of the
reasons they had. Well, there were several reasons they cut it out, but we didn't like it
because we were really way, way at the top of the list of, um, nursing programs
nationally.
CB [22:05]: Yeah. So, did you communicate with like other Skidmore, Skidmore friends about it
when you heard about the closing?
SG [22:11]: Yeah, yeah, we did. And everybody was just thought, oh no, this is horrible. Just
horrible.
CB [22:17]: Yeah. Okay. Um, then I think on the, uh, when you first indicated your interest in
participating in this project, yeah. I think you talked about a memory of the day of the
JFK funeral.
SG [22:33]: Oh yes.
CB [22:34]: Do you want to tell me some more about that?
SG [22:36]: Yeah, yeah, we were, we were in New York when he was shot. I remember exactly
where I was in that building. I think everybody does that, you know, and, and uh, I was
picking up my, I know this isn't the funeral, but I was getting, I was going to see what, if
there was anything in my mailbox and the guy who manned the desk down at the, at the
reception area said, ‘Did you hear the news?’ And I said, ‘No,’ I think there were two of
us there, and we said, ‘No.’ And he said, ‘Kennedy just got shot.’ And, and we said, ‘Oh,
come on, don't be funny that, that or that, that's not if you think that's funny, it's not a
joke, you know.’ And he said, ‘No, it's not a joke and it's the truth.’ And then the funeral
came and we were allowed to have the day off to watch it on television with the
exception of two classmates who were on their public health, uh, rotation and they had
patients waiting for them who needed to have a bath or have a treatment or something
like that. And the, the, uh, the instructor would not let them have the day off and all the
rest of us had the day off and we sat glued to the television. And so the, you know, these
two poor girls, they were, they understood it. I mean, this, this is the reality of nursing. I
mean, if it's Christmas, you work, if it's New Year's, you work, if it's the 4th of July, you
work. Not every year, but you know that, that's the way it is. So that was very much
brought home to them at that time.
CB [24:06]: Yeah.

�SG [24:07]: And people, of course, there were nothing, there was nothing called an iPhone or,
you know, that you could look, you know, you could take it with you and watch it on TV
as you were riding the subway to work or something. So, you had to be at home where
there was a television, one television.
CB [24:25]: Are there other, um, memories such as that one from either a particular class or a
particular time that, um, you would like to share? Because as of now, I don't have any
specific questions, but really any other...
SG [24:40]: Well, let's see, uh, well that was, that was, uh, that was, we all were very much taken
by that decision. And of course, the teacher was right. I mean these were sick people who
were waiting, waiting for the nurse to come and uh, help them, right? Well, and I had
this, speaking of public health, I had a patient. We had a 16-week rotation on public
health and uh, we tramped the streets. We were placed in different areas of the city and I
was in Brooklyn and I had a patient whose name was Molly and she was 80 years old and
she lived in the childhood apartment that she had grown up with, in, with her two sisters.
And the oldest, let's see... there was her, let me see, no. She was 82. She had an 80-year
old sister who was younger who, um, sort of ruled the roost and she worked as a cleaning
woman for a few families, so she had to make sure she was home when I came because
Molly refused to take a bath. She refused. And uh, the sisters couldn't... no, no wait a
minute. No, she was the oldest. She was the oldest one. So, she was the boss and the
sisters said to her, the other sister was a, was a psychiatric patient and she laid, would not
get out of her bed. And Molly tried to snatch the covers off of her and make her get up
because she was the, the... She was tiny. Teeny weeny little skinny thing and the sisters
were not paying any attention to her and, and they could not get her into a bathtub. So, I
had to come once a week and give her a bath and she was like, uh, as nice as a kitten.
When I arrived, I had to walk up a flight of about 25 stairs to get up to their apartment.
She never recognized me. Not one single time for 16 weeks, and her sister would say,
‘Come down Molly, the nurse is here.’ And I would go up and I would get this little lady
all...she had a thing about safety pins. Everything on her was pinned together. And I had
to get all of those safety pins out and I had to get her into the bathtub. And every now and
then I had to wash her hair. She didn't like that and she was all, she was as calm and as
nice as anything. But the, and then she'd give me a big hug when I left and she'd say, ‘Oh,
thank you and see you next week.’ And I'd come the next week. She never knew who I
was. That was something, that was really, it was like taking care of a child. It really was,
you know. Uh, let me see what else. Uh, we had a good time in New York, outside of the
nursing. We've, as I said, we had no money. So, one of the things we used to do was to
take the Staten Island Ferry, which cost a nickel in each direction. And if you went right
out back again, it was a nickel round trip. So, we used to do that a lot. And of course, just
walking the streets and looking at people and things was, was an education in itself. But it
was quite an experience being in New York City. I would never move back there again
now that, that's for sure. But I lived there for nine years altogether. So that was a, a...and
Skidmore and the campus of course was completely different. Do you still have Yaddo?
Do you know what Yaddo is? Okay. It's out at the end of Union Avenue, past the race
track. And it was a huge, it was somebody's estate originally and then they turned it into

�an artists' colony. It was a huge, huge tract of land with an enormous mansion in the
middle of it. And all these artists, painters, and that kind of artist went and lived there and
did their work and everything we used... And we were allowed to go out there and uh,
and walk around the grounds and everything. So, we were there a lot. So, I don't know if,
I wonder if it's still, have to check that out if it's still there.
CB [28:53]: I will, yeah.
SG [28:53]: It's out past the race track.
CB [28:54]: Okay, I'll look into it.
SG [28:57]: Oh, and we had something which was a tradition that, not just for nurses, but there
was a bucket, which was called the bucket. And that was, the freshman class... each dorm
was, they had a big competition and each dorm was try, had to get ahold of the bucket
and hide it in their dorm, and then the other dorms would come ‘round rooms, this went
on for the whole year and attack the dorm that had the bucket and try to find the bucket
and take it to their dorm. So, this was something that was, oh, this was wonderful fun. We
went, you know, this went on for a whole year, but that had nothing to do with nursing.
This was everybody.
CB [29:34]: Yeah. That's so fun though. Great. Well, thank you very much.
SG [29:41]: You're most welcome.
CB [29:42]: I'm going to stop the recording at this point.
SG [29:45]: Okay.

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                    <text>Interview with Patricia Loftman '71 by Skidmore Student [Unknown],
COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019.
SKIDMORE STUDENT [00:00]: Could you start by saying your name and your class year?
PATRICIA LOFTMAN [00:02]: My name is Patricia Loftman. I graduated in 1971.
SS [00:10]: Okay. And, where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore’s Nursing
program.
PL [00:15]: Where did I attend high school?
SS [00:17]: Where were you born? Where did you grow up?
PL [00:19]: Oh, where was I born. Oh, my family immigrated to the US from Jamaica in the
Caribbean. When I was about eight years old, actually my, my parents were here in the
state, I was raised by my grandparents in Jamaica.
SS [00:36]: And where did you move to, when you moved to the states?
PL [00:40]: Oh, we moved to Washington, D.C. where my dad was attending dental school at
Howard University.
SS [00:48]: Okay. did your family, so your dad was a dentist, did other family members have a
background in medicine and nursing?
PL [00:55]: No, he's actually the only one who has, any, any background in the healthcare field,
everybody else is in other industries.
SS [01:06]: And so, what was your educational background before you joined the program? Like
did you, did you work before? Did you, go to school?
PL [01:17]: Eventually we migrated to New York where I went to school, completed middle
school and high school in the Bronx. In New York City.
SS [01:30]: And did you always know you wanted to be a nurse? What drew you to the program?
PL [01:36]: Well, when I entered Skidmore in 1966, my plan was to go into medicine. I entered
as a pre-med major, completed my first year. My first year went fairly well, by the end.
By the beginning of my sophomore year there was just something about the socialization
into medicine that was just not appealing. And I began to look at other avenues and it
seemed that nursing, would be more cognizant with who I was as an Individual and in
terms of my interactions with human beings. So, I transferred my premed credits into
nursing.
SS [02:25]: And what about Skidmore, why did you choose here over other programs?

�PL [02:30]: Actually, I didn't choose Skidmore. There were, the 60s was a very interesting time
politically. It was very, very difficult for African Americans to get a decent quality
education, especially in colleges and universities. And at that time, it was in the middle of
the height of the civil rights era and there was a move to integrate a lot of the colleges
and universities as a way for students of color, specifically African Americans to gain
access to higher education. And at the time, a lot of the Ivy League schools were
beginning to open up their doors and Skidmore was one of them. And so, my guidance
counselor in high school actually chose it for me. My family didn't know anything about
it. I didn't know anything about Skidmore, didn't know where Skidmore was, didn't know
anything about it, but he thought it would be good for me. So, he chose it and I was
accepted and I went.
SS [03:28]: Wow, that’s got to be kind of intimidating, to go somewhere that you don’t know
about at all and pretty far from home.
PL [03:35]: It was. It was very intimidating.
SS [03:39]: So, what was it like being in the program? What was it like being part of that new
generation of women and people of color who were allowed to be in these programs?
What was that like?
PL [03:52]: It was, it actually was very, very traumatic and very painful. At the time, in 1966,
Skidmore was an all-women's college. It was a small liberal arts college. One of those
seven sister schools that you, you may or may not have heard about that existed at that
time. It would have included Skidmore, Bryn Mawr, Smith, those kinds of schools. And
Skidmore was somewhat smaller. If my memory serves me correct, there were less than
2000 women on campus and of those 2000 only, there were only seven students of color
and they were actually all African Americans. My incoming freshman class had the
largest number, four of us came in. There was one sophomore, her name was Linda
Taliaferro. She has since passed away. There was one junior and one senior. So, it was
very, very isolating actually.
SS [04:53]: Did you find it was difficult to socialize and be a member - did you not feel much
like a member of the community?
PL [05:00]: No, we really were not. We were not welcomed. As a matter of fact, the four of us
really stuck together for our own emotional health and sanity. At that time, because they
were unisex schools, the surrounding male schools such as Williams and Wesleyan, they
were all male at the time. So, by noon on Fridays, the campus was deserted because
everyone had transportation alternatives that we didn't have. This was our first exposure
to money and to wealth and to privilege, and to power. And we were not prepared for that
at all. So, by noon on Friday, there was this huge campus and we were the only ones on it
because everybody was gone. So, it was not, it was not a good time. It was not a good
time for us.

�SS [05:57]: I’m so sorry that that was your experience. Yeah, I mean I can't fathom because I
have not been in that position, but I believe that that must've been so awful and painful
and I'm just thankful that you are willing to talk to me about it. So, thank you so much.
So, um, in terms of academics, what was the course load like? What were the classes that
you are taking for the nursing program?
PL [06:26]: So, the curriculum for the nursing program was your standard curriculum that you
would find in any nursing program then and today. I have to say in retrospect, because
I've always wondered what my preparation was like academically compared to others. I
can say that Skidmore prepared me extremely well. I mean, I still remember my faculty. I
remember Doris Diller. I remember Jean, what was Jean's last name? I don't remember
her name, but I remember my faculty, they were absolutely wonderful. We had a rigorous
course of study and I think that it, I think academically it most definitely prepared me
quite well.
SS [07:14]: Um, do you have any memories about Agnes Gelinas?
PL [07:15]: She, I think she was before me. I know the name, but I never had her.
SS [07:20]: Okay. Yeah, I can't remember when she retired. It might've been ’61 or ’62. So that
was right before you.
PL [07:29]: Yeah, I came with Jean Campbell, Doris Diller. I'm trying to remember some of the
other people, but, Jean Campbell and Doris still, I remember vividly.
SS [07:39]: Do you have any favorite classes or favorite memories with them?
PL [07:45]: I don't know if you know, Doris Diller I remembered I had her for pediatrics and I
had her for a peds and something else, I don't remember, but Doris Diller, her
background had been in the military and she ran us like we were in the military and she
was rigid and she was strict. I mean, she was by the book, but boy do I, do I respect her
now and appreciate her, because I, you know, at the time you don't realize what you're
being prepared for and it's only after you've had that experience and reflected back that
you recognize that you, that she prepared you very, very well.
SS [08:34]: That's great. Do you remember, can you tell me a little bit about going to New York
City for that portion of the program?
PL [08:41]: The program. I loved it. I loved getting back to the city. Oh my God. That was one
of the perks and benefits that put me in nursing, I knew that I would get back to the city
for two years and it was just wonderful. We lived in a dorm, we lived in two dorms. The
first one was on 20th Street, East 20th Street between 2nd and 3rd Avenues. And it was an
older building that was, the norm at the time. But it was, it was just really nice being back
in New York and just not being isolated and the having the flexibility to just move
around. Plus, I was from the city, so I was able to get back and see my friends and my
family. It was just really nice being back in New York. And then after about, maybe

�about a year, a new dorm was constructed on 38th Street. So, we moved from Fahnestock
on 20th Street to 38th Street. The newer building was more aligned with the newer
construction that was going on at the time. Fahnestock was one of your older buildings. It
was very homely. And so, it had a nice quality to it. The newer dorm was just like a
regular building. But it didn't have the architecture that the old dorm had and it just didn't
have the home feel that the old dorm had. But you know, it was just a dorm and we made
it work.
SS [10:15]: Are there any memories you - that come back to you from your time in New York?
PL [10:21]: Nothing that really stands out because here again, there was one other student of
color, her name was Gloria Hairston, and she too has made her transition and passed on.
So, it was just Gloria and myself in the dorm and even in New York, I'm talking about
now as a student, we really were not, hang on one second... Even in the dorm we would
essentially go to class and then just disappear because even back here in New York, we
were not part of the Skidmore nursing program back here in New York. So, it was really
nice to be back in New York. All I had to do was go to school, go to class, you know, do
my work. But I didn't have to worry about being isolated anymore.
SS [11:18]: So, I’m excited to talk to you about your career after you left, Skidmore. What path
did you take?
PL [11:23]: So, once I graduated, I worked as a nurse in the emergency room and the intensive
care unit at one of the public hospitals here in New York called Lincoln Hospital. And I
don't know if you've seen the movie, The Godfather?
SS [11:40]: I haven't.
PL [11:41]: Okay. So, in that movie, The Godfather, there is a scene where, Marlon Brando gets
shot and he's taken to a hospital. Well, the hospital that was used in The Godfather movie
was where I worked, and I was there when they were shooting that particular scene. And
it was so interesting because that was, Lincoln Hospital, it was named after President
Abraham Lincoln. It was previously a home for formerly enslaved African Americans.
And after slavery was ended, it was converted into a hospital and named Lincoln
Hospital. As a matter of fact, I worked at Lincoln before I actually took my nursing
boards. In those days, and I think it still exists, after you finish your first formal year of
nursing [education], you could take the licensed practical nursing boards and work as a
practical nurse. I certainly was not privileged and I didn't have, my family didn't have
money, so I actually had to do that. After I completed my first year of nursing, I took my
licensed practical nursing exam, passed, and worked as a licensed practical nurse during
the summer so that I could get money to go back to school in the fall. And then, once I
completed my full nursing studies, then of course I took my registered nursing boards,
and passed those. So, I had already begun to work at Lincoln as a practical nurse. So, of
course, once I passed my registered nursing boards, I just continued.
SS [13:25]: And what path did you take, I know you’re a Nurse Midwife now. So how did you

�get there?
PL [13:28]: Now that is really interesting how that transition occurred. I worked at Lincoln for
many years. Then I became a mom and it was difficult for me to do the night schedule
and the weekend schedule, I wanted something that was more Monday through Friday,
nine to five. So, I transitioned and worked for a foster care agency as the nurse who
coordinated the medical care for children who were in foster care. And I did that for a
while. And while I was doing that, I learned about midwifery. I had always, always loved
OB. I mean always when I was in nursing school, OB and peds were my two favorites.
And those were the ones that I really excelled in. I learned about midwifery and I said,
‘oh, I had not known about midwifery.’ I knew about midway from when I was growing
up in Jamaica because in the Caribbean, midwives are utilized a lot. But I didn't know
that there were midwives in the U.S. and when I learned that there were midwives in the
U.S., I said, ‘that's what I'm going to do.’ So, I applied to Columbia University. They had
a program in the graduate school of nursing and I applied and was accepted. I went to
midwifery school for two years, from 1980 to 1982. During that time, going to midwifery
school was very, very challenging because, back in the 80s, the only way you could do
midwifery education was full time. That has subsequently changed. You can do
midwifery school now part time. But in those days, back in the 70s and 80s, you had to
go full time and it was two full years, four academic quarters, four academic semesters. I
always tell people, had I known, had I had a crystal ball and knew how rigorous that
program was, I don't know that I would have ever started. But once I was in it, I was in it
and I vowed to see it through to completion. And I'm glad I did. But it was probably one
of the most grueling courses of studies I have ever undertaken.
SS [15:46]: And then so, what was your career like after becoming, getting your licensure for
midwifery?
PL [15:52]: It was, it was wonderful. It was absolutely wonderful. I went to work at Harlem
Hospital, which is also one of the public hospitals here in New York. I have always
vowed to work in the public system. That's where most people of color are, most
underserved populations are. And historically these populations have believed that
because they are poor that they have to accept second class health care, second class
medical care. And I went, I, so I've always worked in public systems because I always
wanted to dispel this myth that because you receive your healthcare in a public
institution, that you're getting second class medical care because that for me was not the
case. And so, I went to Harlem. Harlem was my, was my only, employer. I stayed there
for 30 years. I went in as a brand-new midwife and left as a retiree and it was just
absolutely wonderful. During those 30 years the women taught me how to be a good
midwife. I had the opportunity to see health care, to see many things come and go. I was
there when HIV started. I was there when HIV became an issue for women. At Harlem
Hospital we took care of the first pregnant women with HIV in New York. I was there
and eventually ended up developing an expertise in taking care of those women, HIV
infected women, and women whose pregnancies were complicated by drug use. I really
developed an expertise. In the 80s and 90s, that's pretty much what I did. And then, once
crack and HIV somewhat subsided, I branched out into the total range of women's

�reproductive health care and that's what I did until I retired. It was really a wonderful,
wonderful career. So now I am more involved with the administrative part. I'm on the
board of the American College of Nurse Midwives, which is the professional
organization for midwives. I'm also now the chair of one of the committees in our
organization which is called the Midwives of Color. Our goals and objectives are to
promote the recruitment, the retention and the graduation of underrepresented racial and
ethnic groups - primarily African American, Latinos, Asians, indigenous Native
American students, and Alaskan Native students. So that's what I'm doing now.
SS [18:55]: Do you see a big change in the field, since you’ve moved to the more administrative
side of things?
PL [18:58]: Well, midwifery has changed considerably from when I was educated. First, the
amount of information that students learn today is almost quadruple, but I had to learn in
1980. Healthcare has changed, technology has changed. Health care, the amount of
information the students now have to learn is completely different. I learned about HIV
and chemical dependency and drug use as a professional, whereas students are now
learning about it now. The, clinical expertise of midwives has expanded. When I was a
student, we were primarily relegated to prenatal care, labor and delivery and we did some
reproductive women's health care. Now we are doing just a lot of procedures. Midwifery
practice has expanded into midwives doing sonograms, midwives, do a lot of the
technical skills that you would see a lot of physicians doing. We do terminations those of
us who, acquire the education and the skills. So, midwifery in terms of the practice has
just changed dramatically from when I was a student and even a beginning practitioner.
SS [20:27]: Um, how do you think your Skidmore education helped you with your career?
PL [20:29]: Well, in terms of my preparation, it was certainly very valuable. I mean, I, when I
walked into Lincoln Hospital as a nurse, I was prepared. I knew exactly what to do, and
actually, I actually excelled. But I also think it was very helpful when I went to
Columbia, when I went to graduate school. That was also very helpful. So, I mean, as
traumatic as my undergraduate days were at Skidmore in terms of my ability to
successfully navigate graduate education, it helped.
SS [21:05]: And remember we spoke a little bit about this, but you didn't seem to have too much
of an opinion about the closing of the program?
PL [21:11]: You know, I don't know anything about the closing of the program. When I finished
Skidmore, I just wanted to run away. I didn't want to have anything to do with Skidmore.
I just wanted to get out. And when I got out, that's exactly what I did. I didn't look back,
period. I didn't go back to Skidmore. I didn't go back to campus for many years. I think I
first went back for a reunion maybe about 10 years ago. I had not been back to Saratoga
and I hadn't done anything with Skidmore for many years. It was just that traumatic. So, I
didn't know when the school closed. I learned about the school closing maybe five or six
years after the school closed. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't read about it. I
really just wanted to drop off the face of the earth as far as Skidmore was concerned.

�SS [22:01]: What was it like being back?
PL [22:05]: Well, the biggest thing of course is the campus. I was raised on the old campus,
whereas everything is now on the new campus. They were just building the new campus
when I left. So, the new campus is completely new for me. My days were spent on the
old campus and I have to tell you, I loved the old campus. The old campus was beautiful.
I don't know if you've had any contact with the old campus, but we loved the old campus.
We loved those buildings. Oh my God, they're just so gracious. For me the new campus
is just brick and stone and it's cold.
SS [22:42]: Yes, I do have those feelings, especially in the dead of winter.
PL [22:49]: Yeah, the old campus was not like that. I mean the old campus was just really, really
warm and I missed, I’m not even talking about just the building, just the whole feel of the
campus, it's completely different. That campus had a sense of community where that I'd
never, I mean by the time I graduated, maybe, I think McClellan was finished, Kimball
was finished. I think there were maybe only two buildings and none of us ever wanted to
go to the new campus. So, we were glad we didn't have to.
SS [23:37]: I guess my last question would be, what does it mean to you to be a nurse?
PL [23:40]: Well, I have a background in nursing but I'm not a nurse. I'm a midwife. And those
are two completely distinct and separate professions. They do completely different
things. And that's something that we find ourselves having to explain all the time. It's
hard to explain. Nursing, is a distinct profession. Midwifery is a distinct profession.
Midwives are directly responsible for patient care. In other words, we have to assess and
make decisions. Not that nurses don't, but it's a different kind of decision. So, while my
background is in nursing, my profession is that of a midwife.
SS [24:39]: What does that mean to you? What is your purpose as a midwife?
PL [24:40]: My purpose is to number one, acquire the information, the knowledge and the skills
that I need to render the best medical care that I can for women. And I think that I was
very successful in that. One of the hallmarks of midwifery, we talk about this a lot, is that
midwives listen to women but we do a lot more than just listen. We literally do a lot, in
addition to just what you would expect us to do in terms of having the knowledge, having
the information and having the technical skills, we do a lot of teaching and a lot of
education. And that is just so important and it's not valued. Teaching, counseling,
educating patients... It's not valued in medicine, but that's really what, what individuals
need to keep themselves healthy. I think the bulk of Americans, if they understood that
their own health is literally in their hands, if they only had the information. And so, I
spent a lot of time teaching, you never left my office without a handout about something,
never. And we would talk about it on the next visit. You never left me without having
something in your hands to read that was pertinent to you. And the women valued that
because no one had ever taken the time to talk to them. And that's what they loved, is

�talking. Because it says that you were engaged in their healthcare and, one of the
problems is that people, both providers and, and women, tend to think of health care in
one direction - from the provider to the patient. But it's, it's bidirectional. Patient to
provide, provider to patient. But we have socialized Americans to believe that it's
unidirectional. Provider to patient. And so, they have, they have accepted that dynamic,
that relationship. And so, to have someone like midwives who say, ‘no, no, this is a by
directional relationship here. This is a relationship.’ And that's another thing when I
provide health care, it's a relationship. It's building a relationship. By the time, for
example, by the time I retired, I was attending the birth of children I had brought into this
world. I was now attending their children's births. That was amazing for me, to know that
I had attended the birth of someone and 18 or 20 years later here I was, that this
individual is now a young adult and they have entrusted me with attending the birth of
their child.
SS [27:47]: That’s incredible.
PL [27:48]: It was. The first time it happened, it was an absolutely weird feeling. I remember the
grandmother, this woman came. I walked into the room, they didn't know that they had
me in common. And so, the grandmother, who was my patient, pointed to me, I mean,
she was literally in my face pointing as she was trying to get, the words out. She kept
saying, “it's you, it's you, it's you, it's you”. And I didn't know what she was talking
about. And then by the time she calmed down, she explained that I had been her midwife
and had attended her birth. This was her child whose birth I was now attending.
SS: Wow that is so great, thank you for sharing that with me.
PL [28:33]: Yeah, no. You know, I look back, even though it's been almost 10 years since I've
retired because, I live close by in the neighborhood, I see the women all over the city.
There's no place I can go in New York as big as New York is. I cannot tell you how many
times I am literally walking the streets and someone says to me, ‘Hi Ms. Loftman, you
don't remember me, you were my midwife, you did this, you did that.’ I mean, I'm in
Costco, I'm on the bus. It's just amazing.
SS [29:09]: Wow. That's great. That actually used to happen to my grandfather a lot. He was a
neurosurgeon.
PL [29:15]: I didn't hear you.
SS [29:16]: I said that used to happen to my grandpa whenever we were out, he was a
neurosurgeon and people would always come up and say the same thing to him.
PL [29:26]: Yeah. that's when you know you've made a mark. That's when you know, if you
close your eyes and make your transition today, you left your mark behind in the world.
SS: [29:40]: I think that's all the questions I have for you if you want to go ahead and stop
recording.

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                    <text>Interview with Deborah Wick '71 by Charlotte Bracklo '19, COMPASSIONATE
HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019.
DEBORAH WICK [00:00]: Okay. I think it's working.
CHARLOTTE BRACKLO [00:02]: Great. Okay. So where were you from before you decided
to attend Skidmore's nursing program?
DW [00:09]: I grew up in Cleveland Heights, Ohio. Let's see. I did a little college tour, but I
don't think that Skidmore was even included in it, so I'm not really sure why I went to
Skidmore. And I was so young then. I don't know, my parents did not help me with my
college choice decisions and my school counselor really didn't help me much either. So,
I'm not really sure how I landed at Skidmore, but I did land there and um, so yeah, it was
a good decision for me though in the end.
CB [00:46]: Good. Um, so did your family have a background in medicine or nursing or...?
DW [00:53]: Okay, so did my family have a background in medicine or nursing? Yes, both my
parents were physicians. My mom, um, worked in an emergency room for just a little
while and then she had children, so she didn't really practice for very much of her life.
My father was a psychoanalyst and so he was a physician and, and became a
psychoanalyst then and, and practiced for all of his life. And we, um, yeah... But I did not
enter Skidmore with the intention of becoming a nurse. I really had intended to become a
teacher. That was my goal all the time while I was growing up. I was like, I was going to
be a teacher because I like children and I thought that that's what I wanted to do. And
when I got to Skidmore, um, I was there for the first two years. Most of the...most of the
nursing students, you know, do one year at Skidmore and then two years in New York
City and then one year at Skidmore, but I decided late my freshman year to become a
nurse because even though I had no experience with a hospital, I'd never been to a
hospital, I don't think. I don't remember ever being in the hospital. I had no idea what I
was doing. But New York City... you got to go to New York City and I did not love being
in Saratoga. And Saratoga then was not like it is now for you guys. It was a real
Podunkville town. It had bars and that was... and a post office, and that was about it. So, I
really didn't love being out in the country like that so much. I thought I would, but I didn't
like it. And so, the pull of New York City was tremendous for me. And seeing the seniors
come back to Skidmore, to Saratoga, they were so sophisticated and so sure of
themselves. And when I was a freshman I just, I did not feel sure of myself at all. I felt
really, um, awkward and I didn't... I'd gone to a big public high school, I didn't, you
know… there were a lot of women for, um, from private schools who knew how to small
talk and, and be socially competent, and I just felt like, I just felt so awkward. But seeing

�the seniors come back, it was so cool. I was like, ‘oh I'm going to go to, I'm going to
become a nurse.’ I can remember calling my dad and being worried because he would
have wanted me to be a doctor, of course, not a nurse. So I called, but they were fine.
And so I went to New York City and that's how I got into the Nursing program and it
turned out that it was a wonderful career for me. And, um, except that I had a lot of
trouble at the beginning of getting used to blood, but after I got used to blood then I did
all right. But anyway, that's what I did. That's how I got to be a nurse.
CB [03:39]: Were there, just based on what you just said, can you, like incidences that you
remember where, like, your fear of blood was an issue?
DW [03:49]: When I, when I finished, um, Skidmore and graduated, I got married right away
and um, my husband and I moved to California, to Berkeley. And, um, I worked one year
as a med-surge nurse and I did get used to it pretty quickly. It just wasn't a huge deal. It
made me woozy for a little while and then I just got used to it I guess because you're just
so busy when you're in nursing, you got so much you've got to do that… I just didn't,
didn't have time really to be too worried about it or for it to linger. But I did choose to
become a psychiatric nurse. So, one year after graduating I worked in med-surge on a
low-income clinic floor, which was great experience. So, all kinds of things. And then I,
um, went to graduate school at University of California, San Francisco, and got a master's
degree in psychiatric nursing. And I did that for a while. I did that for about eight years
after I graduated. But then I didn't love that either, too much. So, I'd had, um, I had a
couple... I had my son, my oldest child in 1975. And then, in 1977, I had my daughter
and I had her at home. I did not go to the hospital. I did not love the hospital for birth,
giving birth. It was not a great experience. And so being in Berkeley and being a young
hippie at the time, I had my second child at home. And after that I decided what I really
wanted was to become a nurse midwife. And that's... that was my, that was my passion
for the rest of my career. It really was a passion. I loved being a nurse midwife. I
absolutely loved it. So, when... let's see, so that was in ‘77… I had Sarah and then, um, I
had another child, Annie, in 1980. And then finally... so I had these three kids… my
husband was... we were living in Athens, Georgia at the time. My husband was at the
university. He was an English professor. And um, I know this is not very organized the
way I'm doing, telling you this, is it?
CB [06:06]: No worries at all. It's really totally up to you.
DW [06:09]: Okay. So, then I, um, well I read a lot of... I read a lot of feminist literature at that
time. I was reading a lot of feminist stuff and it just happened that one summer right after
I decided... after a couple of years after having Annie, after '80, I decided this is it. I
really want to go back to school and become a nurse midwife. And so, um, Annie was

�born at home also. So, the first one was in the hospital, then Sarah was at home, Annie
was at home. Then I decided I'm going to school because I was reading all this, all this
feminist stuff. So, I, you know, just said to my husband, ‘look I gotta go, we gotta go to
school.’ So, he took a leave of absence and a sabbatical. He took enough time so that he
came and took care of the children. And I went to graduate school at Georgetown
University and got a master's degree in nurse midwifery. And so that was really the, that
was really, I know that's a long time. It was like 10 years after I graduated, but that was
really the beginning of my career. When I was working in psychiatric nursing I did work.
Um, I worked in the hospital and I did continue in education and then I taught in a
baccalaureate nursing program. I taught psychiatric nursing. But really, when I became a
nurse midwife, that was the beginning of my career. And that's, you know, my real love.
The thing that I really loved to do. So that was my beginning.
CB [07:38]: That's, that's really great. Um, I'm just going to base off of the questions that we
have and kind of jump back to high school real quick. Um, you kind of mentioned that
you didn't really plan on being a nurse, but what was your educational background before
joining the program? Like were you focused on sciences in general or...?
DW [08:01]: No, I kind of was all over the place. I really didn't know because I, I was planning
on being a teacher so it doesn't, wasn't really focused on one thing or another. And I was
thinking early education like so elementary school teacher. So I didn't really... no, I just
kind of had a general... and you know... Hold on a second, I gotta pick up my phone. Um,
and in those days you didn't have as much choice. Like you guys have much of a choice,
then you didn't, you just took what you took. You took English, you took a science, you
took history, you took, you know, one of everything and it was pretty much prescribed
for you. You didn't really get to choose a lot. Maybe, you know, I got to choose my
language. I took French, but there wasn't a lot of choice.
CB [08:45]: Okay. And then to your Skidmore experience. Um, what was your sense of the
program before you started? Did you have, did you know the nursing program existed
since you weren't really planning on doing that or...?
DW [09:05]: No, I had no idea they existed until I met these seniors who came back from New
York City and then I was like, ‘oh wow.’ And I think, um, I don't think any of my
roommates did it, but I may have met somebody who was going in the nursing program
and they were... I wasn't the only, you know, most people did the 1-2-1 program or one in
New York, uhh one in Skidmore and then two in New York City and one on campus. But
there were a few, I think there were three other women along with me who had decided
later who went, who did the two and two, two years and two years like I did. But, um, so

�being at Skidmore was, you know, during those years, I don't, have you interviewed
anybody else who's around this age of mine?
CB [09:56]: Uh, no. You're my first interviewee.
DW [09:58]: Okay. Um, well during those years at Skidmore, we went from being a freshman
and having all of these rules where you couldn't do... There were no boys in the dorm.
There were curfews every night. You had to wear a skirt to dinner every night. And we
used to wear raincoats with our nightgowns underneath them because nobody would
know you didn't have a skirt on. But, um, just lots and lots of rules, to our senior year
when there were no rules… Boys could come all the time, you could wear whatever you
wanted to. So, it was like this huge transition in the culture of, you know, of the country
during those four years that I happened to be in college, um, which was fascinating in
itself. But um, being in New York City was the biggest... So, my junior and senior year
was when most of the changes happened, was between junior and senior year. So, um, we
were right on, well, the first year we were on 2nd Avenue and 20th Street and then they
built a whole new building for us that summer. And the next year we were at 34th Street
and 1st Avenue. So, our first year at, at...in New York, um, we were in a dorm, this old
decrepit building really. And the dorm, everything was in the same building. So, you
lived upstairs and then you had the classroom and, um, faculty offices were downstairs.
So, it was all one building in New York. But, um, the first year was a really decrepit
building. So that was very memorable because, um, we even collected a huge jar of
cockroaches, I believe, and sent them to the president of Skidmore because this building
was so decrepit. We used to cook. We had to cook our own meals because there was no
meal service. So, we, and we have, I think we had a couple of hot plates and it was just
like, it was kind of crazy for the tuition we were paying. And I think our parents all were
up in arms, so they all wrote to the president too. And then the next year they had built
this huge... It was an older building, but they had totally renovated it. And it was
gorgeous. A gorgeous building with...We got to choose our carpet and our furniture. And,
um, it was just crazy. It was just crazy. It was just a time of so much transition for me.
But anyway, so that was my kind of Skidmore experience and I never did go back to
Saratoga because I was graduated after my, you know, after my second New York year.
CB [12:42]: And so, it sounds like you had, you enjoyed your time in New York City.
DW [12:48]: We loved being in New York, just loved it. You know, the nursing classes were
really small. I don't know how big our class was, but it was small. You know it wasn't
like a hundred students. It was like…I don't remember how many, I wish I could
remember. You'll have to look that up. But anyway, so it was just this really intimate, um,
small group of women and we became very close and we, we would do stuff in New

�York. Like we go to a lot of the plays on Broadway. We would go for standing room only
because we couldn't afford to get tickets, but we could do the standing room only. We'd
go to Broadway plays and we would... I remember my roommate and I went down and
we took a pottery class down in Greenwich Village. Um, and we just had a great time. It
was wonderful. Oh and we'd do, like we would do the visiting, we had, um, one of our
courses was Community Health Nursing, so we would go down to the Lower East Side to
these very poor sections, um, with our public nurse uniforms on and we'd go into these
tenement houses and, um, deal with people there. It was just… it was a lot different than
being in Saratoga for me. And it was really wonderful. I loved it.
CB [14:10]: So, you just mentioned a class that you, that you took. Are there any other classes
that you remember as like sticking out or any teachers, professors that you had?
DW [14:23]: Yeah, I loved all of our nursing courses, I don't know why. I was not a great
student my freshman and sophomore year, well I was better sophomore year, but then my
nursing two years, those courses were hard. And there was a lot more work for those
courses than the ones that we'd have on campus. And, um, but I really enjoyed them so
much more, I guess because I was more focused on what I wanted to do by then. And I
remember a psych nursing course was fascinating, we went to the VA hospital and dealt
with some very mentally ill people. But I remember our professor… Well most of our
professors were quite young. There was one older med-surge professor, but our psych
professor would have us over to her apartment, which was kind of fun and have lunch,
you know, have lunch for us and stuff like that. Yeah, we, yeah, I kind of loved all that
stuff. Loved those days. We'd walk up 1st Avenue at night to the library at NYU and use
their library. And I don't know, it was fun. It was a different experience. You can tell
probably from the experience that you're having, it's a different kind of, different kind of
thing, different opportunity.
CB [15:37]: Yeah, it definitely sounds different.
DW [15:41]: More of an urban kind of thing.
CB [15:45]: And, um, so after Skidmore, how did you think what you learned at Skidmore or
like the liberal arts program? How did it impact or serve you in your future career?
DW [15:58]: Um, you know, it was really good. They, they would always tell us that because
we've gone to a baccalaureate program we would, would not have had as much focus on
actual nursing skills like um, like starting an IV or, you know, suctioning somebody or
something, a physical kind of skill and that is true. We did not have as much of that, but
we had, we had a really good basis for decision-making and um, anatomy and physiology

�and why you were doing things and how to, how to make decisions about a patient. So, I
really felt like it served us very well in that way. And the skills we learned very quickly,
you know, because anybody can learn how to start an IV. It's just a physical procedure
that you just, after you do it five times, you know how to do it. Do you know what I
mean? It doesn't take a lot of judgment or thinking, it's just a... like a thing that you
learned to do. And, but we had a really good education and sort of the, all the background
stuff on how you make decisions and why you make decisions. So, I felt really, really
good about that. Um, and that has always helped me. It's kind of like one of the things we
learned was how to learn. We didn't just learn stuff, but we learned how to learn stuff and
how to find out stuff and how to, how to problem solve a problem and that kind of thing.
So that was really good and that helped me well.
CB [17:29]: Good. So, um, you kind of already talked a little bit about your career path earlier,
but when you first indicated your interest in being part of this memory project, you
mentioned that you opened your own midwifery home birth practice?
DW [17:47]: I did.
CB [17:48]: Could tell me more about that?
DW [17:50]: Yes. Yes, I could tell you more about the home birth practice. Um, so one of the
things that Skidmore I think set us up to be was kind of leaders in our fields. I mean, we
felt like we knew what we were doing. We felt pretty confident, confident in making our
own decisions, maybe. I'm not sure what it was, but we all kind of went off and did our
own thing regardless of what we were supposed to do. Do you know what I mean? We
could make our own decisions. So, we um, so I... after Nurse Midwifery School, um…
well first of all, at Georgetown was a very, um, it was a very good nurse midwifery
program and the head of our program was a woman who had actually started a home birth
service in the Washington DC area. So, she was very open to alternative methods of
childbirth and natural childbirth. And so, I had gone through school with experiences at
an out of hospital birth center, I had done one home birth as a nursing... as a midwifery
student… and so I was very comfortable with that and I'd had three of my own children
by then at home. So, I... so the first thing I did after midwifery school was, I worked in a,
in a hospital, in a low-income midwifery clinic and it was great experience for me. But
what I really wanted to do was to do home birth because, you know, that's where my
heart was. So, I decided I was going to start my own home birth business with, with
another woman who lived in Athens, this was in Athens, Georgia, and another woman
who lived there. And so, um, we went to a lawyer and find out what the laws were and
there weren't as many laws then as there are now about midwifery. But anyway, um, we

�had a backup doctor who if one of our patients ran into trouble, she would go and see
him. But very quick... Oh, can you hear me still?
CB [19:56]: Yeah.
DW [19:56]: Okay. I got a call waiting, but I'm just ignoring it. Um, so within, I can't, maybe
within the first year of opening our own practice, we started to get quite a few clients. So,
we had maybe, we started out with maybe two births a month and then we got up to about
six births a month. And right in that period, the doctors in the town in Athens, there were
two practices. Each had, I think at the time it started with this, they each had four doctors,
three doctors… three or four doctors in each practice, I don't remember. But they were so
upset that I was doing what I was doing and, um, they decided as part... I was also
teaching part-time at Medical College of Georgia School of Nursing that had a satellite
program in Athens. So, I was also teaching part-time because obviously I was not
supporting myself with six births a month. So, I was teaching part-time and doing births
part-time. They, these doctors, these two groups of doctors got together and decided that
any woman who was cared for by one of them could not... none of my students in
Medical College of Georgia could work with those, those women. And it was like, what?
Because then I couldn't teach obstetrics obviously, right? Because I couldn't work with
any of my students, my students couldn't work with any of the patients in either of the
hospitals in Athens. It was really crazy. So, then I started to find out more and more stuff.
Um, and finally I decided to file a lawsuit because, um, I don't, I don't remember. So, the
lawsuit is really, really complicated so I don't want to get into all the details of it, but
basically, I filed for first amendment rights for free speech because they, one of the things
they complained about was that I would teach women that there were pros and cons of
circumcision. Believe it or not, that was one of their chief complaints. The other one was
that in the labor rooms, I would let my students dim the lights so they wouldn't have the
bright lights on. It was like, these crazy things they were coming out with. So then in the
course of the lawsuit, we found it that they definitely, they really did want to shut down
my practice. That was their intent. So, the lawsuit became an antitrust lawsuit because I
was practicing legally, I had a backup doctor. The only thing that, the main thing that
they didn't like, it turns out that they didn't like, was that I was salaried. I was not salaried
by anyone. I was... My patients paid me directly. If they needed my backup doctor, they
would pay him directly. So, they were upset because I was the only nurse midwife in the
whole state who is not salaried by a hospital or a physician and so therefore under the
control of a hospital or a physician. They really, they just couldn't deal with that, the
independence thing. So, this lawsuit went on for five years and then there was another
whole tail end of it, but at the end of the five years they did settle with me.
And, um, I ended up moving out of town because my husband wanted to move to Los
Angeles at that point. So, um, I ended up moving out of town, which was a good thing

�because they kind of sued... it was, everyone was so up in arms over this lawsuit. There
were even articles in the Atlanta Journal Constitution about this lawsuit. I mean it was
crazy. And I, it was very upsetting for me. It was very stressful. And so, at the end of the
lawsuit when we settled, I did get to rewrite the bylaws of the hospital, which was great.
And um, they couldn't, you know, obviously they couldn't squash a home birth practice
after that. They had to allow the home birth practices to go on and um, but I, but I left
town, which kind of was a healing thing for us because I was like the lightning rod in the
whole debate. Do you have any questions about that? So complicated. It was really
complicated, but I ended up suing ten doctors and two hospitals at the end. It was very
traumatic.
CB [24:17]: Yeah. No, thank you for sharing that.
DW [24:21]: That was the most traumatic thing of my whole career.
CB [24:25]: Yeah, I can imagine.
DW [24:26]: Obviously, obviously.
CB [24:28]: And sorry, just moving on…In LA then, I think you had indicated this as well, you
helped develop and run a prematurity prevention program?
DW [24:43]: Yeah. That was... so I went to...We left Athens with our kids. My
husband got a, um, decided that he wanted to try to do screen writing. So he was, he got a
fellowship for the American Film Institute in Los Angeles, so that, and it was right at the
end of the lawsuit. So, um, we went to Los Angeles, we moved to Los Angeles. And
then, um, I started working for a big Kaiser hospital there. Um, Southern California is
basically run by Kaiser. They kind of have a monopoly there, so there are lots and lots of
Kaiser hospitals. And I was in a really large Kaiser Hospital and I was working, when I
started working there, there were six nurse midwives, by the time I left there were twelve.
So, we had um... the nurse midwives had half of the labor and delivery floor and then the
doctors had a high-risk area, but the nurse midwives did seventy percent of all the
deliveries, we did all of the low-risk deliveries. And we actually did a little bit of the
high-risk ones, but not too much. So, there was a floor with this birthing center was half
of it, and then the other half was the labor and delivery unit where the high-risk patients
would be.
And, um, that was an amazing job. We did a lot of deliveries. We would work 24-hour
shifts, two midwives at a time and each of us would do between eight and fourteen
deliveries every 24-hour shift. So, we were doing, we were just delivering babies like
crazy there. And we had excellent statistics. So that was a wonderful, wonderful job. I got

�so much experience there, but then we, um...After a couple, after about, I think I was
there about three, more than three years and um, they wanted somebody, they got a bunch
of money together to, um, have a prematurity prevention program. So, and they wanted
somebody to do that. And I said, I'll do it. Sure, I'll be happy to do it. I've never, I'd never
done anything like that in my life, but… So, I developed this program, which was really
fun. I had lots of money, which was great. I got to hire my own staff. So, I hired a
secretary and I think five nurses and we did, um, we took care of every woman who was
at risk for having a premature delivery. So, moms with twins and triplets, people who'd
had a, uh, a previous preterm delivery, there were all kinds of risks. We would do a risk
assessment on every woman who came to that Kaiser. And then when they were high
risk, we would, we would have them in the program and then we would do a whole
educational part for them and we would follow them through their pregnancies. And then
we had the highest risk women, I decided would benefit from midwifery care because,
you know, the doctors go in, they do an appointment, it's like five, three to five minutes
maybe, but midwives would spend like twenty minutes with the patients. So, you'd do all
this education and all kinds of stuff. And these women really needed a lot of education to
take care of themselves so they wouldn't have a preterm baby. So, um, so I talked to the
head of our department who was this wonderful man and he... we set up this program
where the nurse midwives did, I think we would do like three prenatal visits and then the
doctor would do one visit and then we do three visits, he'd do one visit. So, then I had my
five nurses and my secretary and then I added on midwives for this, for this clinic where
we would actually take care of these very high-risk women. I had always felt like
midwifery care, low-risk women would be fine because they're low-risk and babies come
out really well. You know, they know how to come out. But women who are high-risk
need more care and more intention. And by going to a nurse midwife they would get
more care and more attention. And so, I always had that kind of philosophy that nurse
midwifery care would be really good for high-risk women and as long as the midwives
were in consultation with a physician. So, we would have weekly meetings where we'd
go through all of our patients and talk about care plans for each one and that sort of thing.
But it was a wonderful program. I loved doing that. And I did it for one year and then my
husband died, suddenly and unexpectedly. And here I was out in Los Angeles, with four
children and no family, and so, I did leave after the one year. It was, it was tough to
leave, but I just couldn't do it by myself with all the kids and no family nearby. That, that
program crashed and burned for me because I couldn't, couldn't stay and really do
anything about it after that.
CB [29:48]: Yeah. Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but did you continue working after that or was
that...?
DW [29:56]: Oh, no, yes, I did. He died of mesothelioma, which is what you get from

�asbestos exposure. Even though he was a college professor, so we don't really know how
he got exposed. But anyway, he died very quickly. And, um, so then I moved back east
with the children to a small town in northern New York State near Albany, actually not
far from Skidmore, Cambridge, New York. I don't know if you know where that is. It's
not too far from you. It's about an hour, uh, east and just, let's see, where is it?
Cambridge, New York. So, it's just east and north of you, I think.
CB [30:32]: Yeah, I've definitely heard of it.
DW [30:34]: Yeah. So, we moved there. I moved there, because there was a, a little, um, it was
a small, it was a small town, had its own hospital and um, there was a doctor with one
midwife and they wanted to add another midwife. So, I decided to move there and take
that job. And it was a lovely, lovely place to have a baby. Um, once again the midwife
did most of the deliveries, the two of us. And um, it was just this country hospital and so
you knew the whole family, you know, it was a small town so you'd get to know the
whole family. And um, it was, it was wonderful and it wasn't so busy. Obviously, I wasn't
doing 14 deliveries every day. I just would do, uh, you know, maybe three or four
deliveries a week. And it was just, it was a lovely practice with an older OB-GYN who
was wonderful, who supported midwifery and I loved that. It was the perfect job for me
for recovering from the death of my husband. And then I did meet another man and who,
um, who was the financial aid director actually at Williams College, which is where
Sarah, the ones who teaches at Skidmore, and my son both went to Williams College.
And so, I met this guy who was the financial aid director and we fell in love and got
married. So, he's my husband now. We're married now. Been married since '94 or '95, I
guess, yeah, '95.
CB [32:10]: That's nice to hear.
DW [32:14]: And that was... and then, that was kind of my last, yeah, that was my last
midwifery job that I had. Um, after that, after, well he's older, so we, he was ready for me
to retire. So, I tried to retire, I'd try. I'd always try and retire and then I'd go back to work
because I missed it so much. But anyway, one time I tried to retire and then I went back
to teaching nursing and I, we moved to Cape Cod when he retired. So, um, I taught at
University of Massachusetts. I commuted and taught nursing there for quite a few years
and then we moved here to the south, and I have not worked again now since we moved
here. I just decided, I just started volunteering though for the, oh to accompany women
who've been sexually assaulted to the hospital. I'm volunteering for the sexual assault
center here, but I'm not doing anymore midwifery. I'm kind of, I think I'm kind of done.
CB [33:16]: Yeah.

�DW [33:17]: I'm 70 now, so.
CB [33:19]: Yeah, it sounds like you've done a lot.
DW [33:21]: I don't really want to jump out of bed at three in the morning anymore. That was…
I did that for a lot of years, that was enough. So, I don't know what else. What have I
forgotten?
CB [33:31]: No all good. I was just going to move on. So, your daughter teaches at Skidmore
now. How... was that inspired by you having attended Skidmore?
DW [33:47]: My daughter teaches at Skidmore, was that inspired by me attending Skidmore?
No, Sarah went to Williams College actually. She's an artist and she was in New Jersey
and it was just a job opening at Skidmore and she interviewed for it and she got it. But it
was so totally ironic for me because I had these three different phases of my life of being
near Skidmore and Saratoga Springs because I was a student there and then when we
lived in Cambridge, New York, we used to go to Saratoga to do our Christmas shopping
and stuff. And so, it was like a totally different place for me than when I'd been a student.
And then... now Sarah's teaching there, so now we go and I see my grandchildren and
stuff, so it's just really weird to me that I've had these contacts with Saratoga and
Skidmore all these years on and off and on and off, because I really have not kept up at
all with my... I mean I keep up with a couple of classmates on Facebook, but I've not... I
never really went back to Skidmore. I never really went to reunions. I just didn't stay in
touch with it very much. I've gotten more in touch with it now since Sarah has been there
for a few years. So now I was going to go to my last reunion, but then something came
up. I wasn't able to, but um, so I've never been to a reunion, but I think I will go now.
Um, now that I'm back in touch with it a little bit, but it was just never, I just didn't, it just
wasn't the kind of thing I did.
CB [35:19]: Yeah.
DW [35:20]: I kind of was moving forward, not backwards. I don't know if I answered your
question. Oh, so Sarah, no, she's just teaching there because she's teaching there, but she
loves that I went there. I mean she loves that. She's more excited about it than I am, I
think. She just loves that I went to Skidmore and that now she's there. And she's got a 15year-old and a nine-year-old. So, um, yeah. So, we go up a lot and see them. And in the
summer we always go for, um, about a month we'll go up and get a little, uh, house on a
lake nearby, near Sarah and will, uh, spend a month there so we can spend time with our

�grandchildren. And we go to the races and Skidmore and Saratoga and all that kind of
stuff. It's fun.
CB [36:06]: Yeah, it sounds great.
DW [36:07]: I'm going back and she lives right in town, right on East Avenue. Right in, right in
the downtown area. Yeah.
CB [36:19]: Yeah, so the Nursing program at Skidmore closed. Do you remember that
happening? Did you have any feelings, strong feelings about that?
DW [36:30]: You know, I didn't have strong feelings about it because I was so detached from
Skidmore. Once I went out to California, I was kind of, you know, the first time after
getting married I was kind of gone. I didn't really, um... Oh, that's the part I left out for
you. I went to, right after college I went to California. We lived there for six years. Then
we moved to Athens, Georgia, and that's where all that lawsuit stuff happened. That's
why I got involved in the lawsuit. Anyway, there was that transition. So, we went from
California to Athens, Georgia, and then to Los Angeles. So, we had a couple of
California trips. Um, anyway, um, I heard about it. I'm sure I heard about it within a year
or so after it closing. Um, but I don't, do you know what year it was that it closed? I don't
remember.
CB [37:25]: Um, I don't remember right off the top of my head.
DW [37:28]: That's okay. I think it's sad because it was such a unique program. I don't think
there's another program like it anywhere in the country. And it was such a unique
program and such a good program and, I don't know, what it was about it, it was just very
special. Um, so I think it was sad, but I also know it was probably tremendously
expensive to just for this small group of women, they had a whole faculty, a whole
building. I, you know, I mean, I... in New York City, in Manhattan. So yeah, that, that
must have cost a fortune to run that program and to keep it. Oh, you know, one of the
ironies is that Skidmore... at the very, very beginning of the Skidmore Nursing program, I
don't know how I know this, but I, but I do know it, they used to use Mary McClellan
Hospital, which is in Cambridge, New York, which is the hospital that I worked in when
I came back from California after my husband died. So, Mary McClellan Hospital has a
whole history with Skidmore as well. And so, it's so funny that you know, your life just
goes ’round and ’round. But here I was a graduate of Skidmore and I was working in the
hospital that Skidmore used years and years and years before that as a clinical placement
for nursing students. It's just interesting.

�CB [38:49]: Yeah.
DW [38:51]: Kind of an irony.
CB [38:55]: So that is pretty much all I have for specific questions. Are there anything, if there's
anything else you would like to share, any other memories that stand out from your
Skidmore experience or, um, or after that your Skidmore experience had impacted, that
you would like to share?
DW [39:14]: There was one funny thing that I was going to tell you about and I forgot about it.
When we were in New York City, when I was telling you all the things had changed so
much over those two years… The first year we were in there, when we were this, in this
old building, we had this elevator. Oh, this building was so creepy. Anyway, we lived in
this old building and um, we were not allowed to have boys in our dorm, but of course we
did have boys in our dorm. So, we would have to sneak them in. There was like a lady at
the desk downstairs who would check to see who was coming in. So, we would have all
these ruses where we would make up these elaborate plans to distract her or, you know,
even burn something on the stove in the kitchen, so she'd have to go in the kitchen, and
then we'd sneak all these guys in at once. It was like this. And then we'd have to sneak
them out again. And one time, I remember one of my friend's husbands, now, well he
became her husband, but her boyfriend had, we had him dress up in a dress and a wig to
get out of the building. It was, and they realized of course that this was a man because he
was huge. So, somebody was chasing him up 1st Avenue… it was the funniest... it was
just, there were so many little memorable things like that. It was just really quite an
experience you can imagine.
CB [40:33]: Yeah.
DW [40:35]: And we'd have, and we would have the, we had a little roof next door that kind of
attached to our building. So, if we had boys there that we could, if we couldn't get them
out in a day or so, we would let them sit down on the roof so they could get some fresh
air. It was just really bizarre. I mean it was just crazy. Anyway, I'm glad things have
changed so you don't have to do those kinds of things anymore. Although they were kind
of funny and fun to do.
CB [41:03]: Great. Well thanks a lot for sharing.
DW [41:06]: Yeah, thanks Charlotte. So, tell me a little about yourself. I'm going to turn off my
thing.

�CB [41:10]: Yes, I'm going to turn off as well.

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                    <text>Interview with Dana Carr '81 by Matthew Chipkin '20, COMPASSIONATE HANDS:
Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019.
NOTE: Below is an edited version of the audio interview, some information and details have
been reordered, removed and grammar corrected by the interviewee for ease of reading.
DR. DANA CARR [0:00:00]: Ok, so it’s going.
MATTHEW CHIPKIN [0:00:03]: My first question I have is, were you in school prior to
deciding to attend Skidmore's Nursing Program?
DC [0:00:18]: First, I would like to thank you for asking me to participate in this
opportunity and I would like to provide a bit of personal background. I was born in New
York City and grew up in the Bronx. I attended public school and after graduating from
high school I decided I would pursue nursing as my career choice. I attended Hostos
Community College—a local college in the Bronx. I graduated in June 1975 with an
Associate Degree in Nursing, took my licensing exam, and landed a job as an RN at
Montefiore Hospital and Medical Center.
Shortly thereafter, I started taking liberal arts courses at Lehman College, which is part
of the City University education system. In my mind I understood that I would need to
obtain a bachelor’s degree but at the time it was just a thought. However, while at
Montefiore I maintained my contact with Patricia Sullivan, the lead nurse recruiter. As
we discussed my career goals and required continued education, she presented
Skidmore’s program as an option for continuing my education. Of course, the rest is
history!
MC [0:03:05]: What was your general sense of the program before you started? Tell me about
your introduction to program - when exactly you were there, what your classes were
like... anything of that sort.
DC [0:03:26]: This is an interesting question because I had to do a bit of leg work. I had no
knowledge of Skidmore other than what Patricia Sullivan shared with me. But that said, I
liked the idea of the independent nature of the program. It wasn’t just about completing
nursing credits, I had to complete liberal arts credits as well. When I graduated with my
associate’s degree, I only had 75 credits. To qualify for my bachelor’s, I had to complete
liberal arts credits as well; this would be challenging because of Skidmore’s upstate
location. Also, just because I wanted to go to Skidmore did not mean my acceptance was
automatic. I had to apply for admission, just like anyone else but that said, I had lots of
encouragement/support from Skidmore. It felt nice to be “wanted.”
I was allowed to take many of my liberal arts courses, including sciences, nutrition, and
philosophy classes at local senior colleges. I really wish I could remember the names of
some of my professors who were powerful and supportive mentors, but it was so long
ago. I was working at Montefiore full-time, I was raising a family and I desperately

�wanted to earn my bachelor’s! It was great that the Skidmore nursing program was in
New York City – East 38th Street to be exact.
I started the program in 1977 and completed by bachelor’s degree in 1981. My nursing
classes were interesting because even though I was already a registered nurse working in
a hospital setting, there was much for me to learn. We focused on Nursing Ethics,
Community and Public Health, and other areas that were not part of my associate degree
curriculum. The clinical training process required me to attend hospitals. I think my
schoolmates appreciated having a “real nurse” in class. They asked many questions about
my work experiences.
When you go back to school, you're a little bit nervous. You hope you are going to meet
the criteria for acceptance. You want to be successful. Personally, I felt pressured because
the nursing profession was changing, and it was important for me to obtain my bachelor's
degree and function as an independent professional. In many respects, Skidmore’s
program was in the vanguard. At that time, there were no City University nursing
programs that encouraged independent study. I felt regarded for my experience as a
licensed professional and I was encouraged to be a leader to my student nurse colleagues;
I was respected. I'll tell you one of the things that I really loved was the programs
leadership -- the professors I worked with were wonderful caring mentors who showed
me that I could aspire to be something more – a nurse leader. Another valuable thing I
learned was the difference between an associate degree nursing education and a
bachelor's degree nursing education; the value of an advanced degree. I hope that answers
your question.
MC [0:08:50]: Yes, this honestly is what we're trying to get out of these interviews. How would
you compare the campus in Saratoga to the campus in New York City to one another?
DC [0:09:07]: The campus in Saratoga was rural and not very accessible. When you go “away”
to school you expect to complete your education on campus or locally. Yet, being able to
complete my coursework in New York City was a bonus. Perhaps there was the
recognition that the trauma center in New York City was the best locations for the
clinical experience. Although I was actively employed at Montefiore Hospital, I had to
take time off for clinicals. I went to hospitals such as Bellevue, New York University,
and Beth Israel. These were wonderful experiences because they provided opportunities
to learn about the mission, vision, and values of these organizations as well as their
clinical practices and culture. These clinical opportunities opened my eyes to entirely
different practice models because, as previously mentioned, I grew up in the Bronx, was
educated in the Bronx, and I worked in the Bronx. Having clinicals in Manhattan exposed
me to so much more than I could have expected.
MC [0:11:53]: Mmm. Awesome. Can you talk more about your experiences after you completed
the Skidmore Nursing Program?
DC [0:12:08]: I graduated from the nursing program in 1981. I must say that having that

�bachelor's degree in nursing, created immediate work opportunities for me. I was able to
climb a career ladder at my hospital, Montefiore. I was a head nurse on a medical surgical
unit and I expanded my practice into community health. I also enrolled in graduate
school. Skidmore opened another door for me and made me think more about career
advancement. I advanced professionally, eventually going into home health care where I
stayed for many years. I worked as a visiting nurse. I recruited nurses for the Montefiore
home care agency which is part of Montefiore Hospital. I also pursued my graduate
education in Gerontology attending the College of New Rochelle. I finished in 1986 with
a Masters in Gerontology which allowed me to fast track into Nursing Administration. I
became a nursing supervisor and eventually an assistant director and a director of
nursing. If I look back and ask myself where did that all start, I have a ready answer Skidmore - and I must say, when people ask me where I got my various degrees and
when I mentioned, I received my nursing degree from Skidmore College, they look at me
and they're like, ‘oh, wow.’ Skidmore has a great reputation as a stellar educational
institution. I'm sure Matt, you know that as you've had that experience yourself.
MC [0:14:54]: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. When did you learn about UWW closing?
DC [0:15:08]: I am not exactly sure when UWW closed, I believe it was sometime in 1985—you
will have to check that date, but I know that its closure was/is a loss. Especially since
today so many schools have programs that are modeled after independent learning.
MC [0:16:24]: What is your contact with Skidmore like now?
DC [0:16:52]: I am on the mailing lists and receive ongoing email updates. A few years ago, pre
COVID, I was invited to come up for a meet-and-greet. It was great fun seeing young
people who are still uncertain and yet very inquisitive about growth opportunities.
MC [0:20:01]: This is all awesome. Is there anything else, any closing remark you’d like to
make?
DC [0:20:17]: I would like to say I considered it an honor to be asked to participate in this
interview. I am often contacted by students from various programs, but your contacting
me was especially meaningful. I credit Skidmore for getting me where I am today. As I
shared previously, in 2013, I earned a doctorate in public health/health policy from the
New York Medical College. That was a career affirming achievement. With every
application I have ever completed for work, school or other events, Skidmore has always
been on the list.
For me being a registered professional nurse is a wonderful personal and professional
accomplishment. I will never forget the role that UWW placed in my accomplishments.
Even though the program no longer physically exists, it continues to exist in my heart and
through all on my accomplishments.
That said, I am pleased have had this conversation with you Matt. I hope you have found
it of value.

�MC [0:24:09]: Thank you, Dr. Carr. Yeah, I appreciate it so much. Not everyone answered the
first email, so I am glad you were so enthusiastic about this, seriously.

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                    <text>Interview with Elizabeth (Liz) Waxman '83 by Xiaoxuan (Shelley) Tan '20,
COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019.
SHELLEY TAN: So, hi Liz, where were you from before you decided to attend Skidmore's
nursing program?
LIZ WAXMAN: Hi Shelley. I was, I was born and bred a New Yorker. So, at the time I decided
to go to Skidmore College and its nursing program, I was in high school in Manhattan.
ST: So, did your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing?
LW: Well, um, my family, as the question is, did my, did or does my family have a background
in medicine or nursing? Um, the simplest answer to that is no. My father owned a retail
business. Ironically, my late uncle was a physician and my two older siblings are
physicians. Um, I had an interest in nursing because I knew I wanted to be in the
healthcare field.
ST: So, what was your educational background before you joined the program--the nursing
program?
LW: Well, my background was, uh, a high school graduate. I applied to Skidmore College and so
my background was the mandatory freshman year courses for the nursing program. Um,
and I passed all of those courses and was entered into the nursing program.
ST: So, what drew you to the program? It's actually, you just go on this, the background thing.
You can probably say a little bit more about that?
LW: Okay. A very simply, uh, the training in New York drew me to the program. That was
probably the, the key to my applying to Skidmore in all honesty. Um, it's not that I went
home every week because I certainly didn't, I had a lot of studying to do, but it was nice
being close to my family. I was able to see my newborn nephew more frequently than if I
had gone anywhere else. And when I look back at my nursing training from Skidmore,
it’s helped me every step of the way in my career. So, without a doubt it was the, uh,
Manhattan nursing program that drew me to the school.
ST: Yeah. So what parts of the program as a whole?
LW: I liked the clinical rotations, especially in the medical surgical rotations. Um, and I felt
because it was such a small program, I felt close to the instructors. I didn't feel that I was
one of a hundred students in the large lecture hall. Um, and I also felt close to my
classmates. Um, so it was a very nice feeling of, um, I don't want to say family, but it was
just a very nice feeling, and we felt we were very well educated to our career is. Um, so I
would say the clinical rotations were great. And the instructors, the instructors were great
as well.

�ST: Okay. So, what was your sense of the program before you started and also, if you can do it
like, after you get into the program?
LW: What was my sense with the program before I got in and after I finished? Um, my sense of
the program before I was accepted to it was, I think I felt intimidated by the program
because we, the nursing majors had a set required. Ah, um, the set, um, set of the required
courses, um, so the requisites, that's the word I want, uh, freshman year. And I did well. I
obviously I did well enough to get into the program. I didn't have to reapply. Um, when I
finished the program, I had a sheer sense of accomplishment. It was not an easy program.
There was a ton of work to do. Um, I probably saw less of my family when I was in the
Manhattan campus than when I was in the Saratoga Springs campus.
ST: So, what's the challenging part do you think of those?
LW: Umm. I guess the challenge was learning the clinical skills and applying them in the
hospital. Um, it's one thing to learn. How to take a blood pressure, how to give a shot in a
classroom. It's another thing to have to give an injection to a child in the pediatric rotation
and not have your hand shake.
ST: So, what do you think you liked the most? So, you already talked about, it’s the Manhattan
part. What's like the structure of it, like, what classes you'd take and you liked the most?
LW: Well, in, in the nursing program, um, it was, the classes were really structured around the
clinical semesters. So, you just started reading the chapters. I probably, with all the
respect to the psych instructors, um, psych was my least favorite part of the nursing
program and that has nothing to do with the program, and this has nothing to do with the
instructors. I just was not good at it and it was a difficult and still is a difficult area for me
in nursing. Um, I think I liked, uh, the statistics course we had to take, we certainly had
an excellent instructor, Gloria Leventhal. Um, she made statistics very easy.
ST: Okay. So, that's the part on the campus, right?
LW: Um Manhattan, yeah.
ST: The Manhattan campus. So, what do you have on, like, the Saratoga part, compared to the
Manhattan part?
LW: So, what was my favorite part of the Saratoga campus or the, uh, what was my favorite
class? What is the question that I'm not answering?
ST: Uh, it just like how you compare the two parts. There's not really need to be favorite or least
favorite.
LW: Well, the Saratoga campus is, just an extraordinarily beautiful campus and it's very nice, uh,
together, uh, Case Green and Case Center. Um, it's always nice to see the leaves
changing. I think what I liked about the Saratoga campus was being able to go outside

�and outdoors, and sit with, sit with friends, um, and enjoy just some of the weekend, um,
festivities they had up at the school. Um, we had those in Manhattan, but they were
different, it was just a lot different. And, um, I think I had, I missed my two very good
friends who were up at the Saratoga campus for all four years. I did miss them when I
was in New York.
ST: So, what's your path after Skidmore? Like how do you go on, on your career?
LW: Well, my path after Skidmore was not a path I thought I would take, but after Skidmore I
went to Israel for a year and worked as... on the program. It was kind of like the Israeli
Peace Corps. So, I was able to work as a nurse in Israel. Um, I had a stipend and a room
and board. Um, and that was really a great experience. And when I came back to the, to
the U.S., to New York, um, it was just the start of the first nursing shortage and when I
was applying to hospitals, a hospital that hired me was Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer
Center and never in a million years did I think I would be in oncology nursing and never
in a million years did I think I would stay in oncology nursing but that is my career.
ST: So, you are still doing like, that, right now? Okay, so would you like elaborate a bit on the
Israel part?
LW: Um, I, well first I have to say that after graduation I did not immediately pass my nursing
boards for New York state so I couldn't get licensed. And so, I was able to get licensed as
a lower, in a lower level health care field and do some home health. And that allowed me
a little bit of income and a lot of time to study. So, when the nursing board was given
again, I passed it. And, at that time I still wasn't sure where or what I wanted to do, and
my sister knew of a nurse at her hospital who had been on this program and my sister
said, ‘Why don't you talk to her?’ And I spoke to this nurse and she told me about this
volunteer program, and I really had a good experience. I got a bird's eye view of some of,
uh, the Israeli healthcare system, especially their health clinics. I can speak some Hebrew
and the nurse I worked with in Israel was fluent in English, so she translated for me, but I
was able to get along, to negotiate and make my way through Israel. Um, there were
other people on the program, there were two other nurses and I'm actually in touch with
one of my friends from Israel to this day. We're actually connected on Facebook, but, um,
it, it was kind of, I'd have to say going to Israel and spending a year in Israel was my time
to grow up. My parents weren't around the corner. I had to learn to make a stipend last a
month, and with that stipend it was buying groceries and washing clothes and, you know,
being an adult basically. Great experience.
ST: Um, where do you work now? Just like, elaborated?
LW: Well, right now I work at MD Anderson Cancer Center here in Houston. Uh, I'm a nurse
practitioner, and my field is lung cancer. So, I see, uh, all of my patients have lung cancer
at this time. Um, I do physical exams, I manage side effects of treatment, um, I do a lot
of, um, edu... patient education in terms of side effects of treatment and, and again, how
to manage them. Um, I work with a one, physician three days a week in clinic.

�ST: Okay. So how do you integrate it, what you learned at Skidmore into that career and also
outside of Skidmore?
LW: Um, well it's the clinical skills that I learnt at Skidmore that have stayed with me and um, I
would say I'm a good clinician in terms of examining a patient, um, and seeing the whole
person, not just the disease aspect or what they're dealing with. And um, I would also say
that, um, I have pretty good, um, psych... psychiatrics, I'm not an expert at it, but there
are certain things I can detect and um, and help get the patients the help they need.
ST: Okay. So, because you are graduated in the ending, like in ’83?
LW: Yes.
ST: So, it's really close to the end of the program. So, could you tell me something about how
you feel about it or how's the situation?
LW: Okay. Um, so I graduated in ’83 and two years later in 1985, the program closed and that
was the final graduating class. I found out about it, I think we had a student led meeting,
no faculty. And, uh, the student body president, or the nursing student body president told
us the news. We tried so hard to save that program, it's not funny. I will be honest and
maybe the college, will edit this out, but the whole process of the closing of the program
has left and still leaves an extremely bad taste, for me. Um, as far, from my perspective,
the board of Trustees decided to close the program and it was a done deal. Um, the
student body from Saratoga was fast to react to this news and very vocal in their
opposition to it. The entire Skidmore faculty was slow, slow to respond. Um, now that's
my take on it. Some of my colleagues and friends from Skidmore may say differently.
Um, it, it was going to close no matter what we did, and I wish somebody had had the
guts to just say, it's closing, period, end of discussion.
ST: Okay. So, because they're like reopen it in some way that they are sending students to work
in the New York, but it's not really like reopening the whole department. So how do you
feel about that?
LW: Well, I've had a long time to think about it and at first, I thought, oh this is a nice way of
still having nursing. But in reality, and this is, this is lost. When you were a graduate of
the Skidmore College nursing program, that was a brand and every hospital you applied
to, knew you had good training and good clinical skills because you would not have been
in that program otherwise. The program they have now, it's great that the students get an
excellent education from Skidmore, but those who are interested in nursing, go to NYU,
and so they're an NYU nurse. And they're very good nurses, but they're not Skidmore
nurses and I really don't think Skidmore should hang their hat on this program that's fasttracking students to another college…[phone rings]. Sorry…
LW: So, as we were saying, so they're an NYU nurse and those are very good nurses as well, but
the brand of a Skidmore nurse is gone and that's not going to be replaced. And I can't
figure out how anybody is going to, want to go to a school, graduate from that school,

�and then go to another school to be a nurse. I, I, it's like I, the, the finer details of the
program need to be explained to me because I don't know if the students who come into
this very broad science major and decide to go to the nursing, do they only go the
Skidmore for two years and then they go to NYU? Or did they go to Skidmore for four
years, graduate with a bachelor's of science, or whatever their degree is and then go to
NYU and only have two years of their nursing program? I don't quite understand how
that works. Um, and I, I don't know, I mean I understand who on the Board of Trustees
came up with this, but it's, it's just not the same.
ST: Okay. So, in that sense, how do you think a full Skidmore program helped you? Like how's
that different, because you think now this is gone. What do you think they lost in that
sense?
LW: I just think they los... I, first of all, I think if they could, if the Board of Trustees or the
faculty or the administration could have held out just a little longer, there was a
resurgence in nursing applications to nursing schools and it would have been NYU and
Skidmore as the two New York, top New York nursing programs. Um, I do know that
when the nursing program closed, the building on 38th Street was sold. I know that for a
fact and nobody has ever told me otherwise, but I'm sure the money, the sale of that
building helped the school financially and I can’t argue with finances.
ST: Okay. So, because it's very different that Skidmore is a liberal arts college, and in my idea, it
is like nursing program at liberal arts college is rare. So, how do you think Skidmore as a
liberal arts college having a nursing program, how, how did it help the nursing program
and help the school...
LW: Well, I think nursing at a liberal arts college makes sense because you have a well-rounded
student who just didn't do a biology and chemistry classes. Uh, I mean my senior year I
took whatever course I wanted, including a phys-ed class, early, um, elementary
education class, um, um, fiction I took, you know, I had a broader education because I
was at a liberal arts college. I think the nursing program could have helped the school
because would, you would have had maybe an influx of students, um, going into that
specific training. I mean, you have pre-med students at Skidmore, is, is being, is going for
a career in medicine or neuroscience contradictory to a liberal arts college? No. And you
have the, you know, you have UCLA with the School of Nursing. UCLA is a liberal arts
school, is that contradictory? I don’t think so.
ST: Okay. So, how do you think the liberal arts college in that sense, like, broader your ideas
about nursing or how you work as a nurse?
LW: The liberal arts part of my education allows me in my current, in what I do today to see
things with different perspectives. Um, and I mean maybe because I took elementary
education, but I can explain very difficult things very easily to patients and families. So, I
think my liberal arts college on a day to day basis impacts what I do at MD Anderson.
ST: I think we can go onto this just like summarize a few things like…bullet points...

�LW: I mean I, Skidmore College was a perfect fit for me and I owe my introduction to Skidmore,
to, uh, the headmaster of my, of my high school. He's now deceased, the late Anthony of
Caperio the third, because he thought Skidmore would be a good fit for me. It was a
small school. I wouldn't get lost in the thousands of students that larger school has. I
would get, not necessarily a one on one education, but the faculty to student ratio would
be much smaller. And I did feel for the most part, uh, excluding the nursing instructors,
that the instructors from the main campus, maybe there are two exceptions, knew who I
was. Um. I had the, I had a very good education from Skidmore. I do support the school.
I think I'm one of the few nursing majors from the 1980s who supports the school,
although I do not have that as on the, I don't have that information as accurate, so, this is
something to edit out. Um, but there were a lot of hard feelings and to be honest with
you, at reunion when I see some of my nursing friends, we still talk about it and it still
hurts. Um, but I love going to Saratoga and I love the campus and I'm glad other students
can benefit from the education provided by Skidmore.
ST: Okay. So, would you just give like several words for us to use about how you feel about
generally your nursing career and your nursing education?
LW: I owe my nursing career to Skidmore College.
ST: Okay.
LW: Okay. Um, just a few more comments. Um, this came up at Reunion Weekend 2018 when
one of the other nursing alumni said in Skidmore Scope, there is hardly ever any items
about what Skidmore nurses have accomplished. And it seems to me that since the
closing of the program in 1985, uh, Skidmore rather intentionally or unintentionally, has
just about completely erased the history of the nursing program, uh, which leaves a bad
taste in my mouth. Now I do support the school and I do send in when they ask me for
alumni giving, uh, it's my understanding that in CIS there's supposed to be some type of
wall or history of the nursing program, and I hope to high heaven the promise is kept. I
know President Glotzbach is leaving in 2020. So, I hope that nursing tribute stays in CIS
because quite frankly, if it doesn't, I and a few other nurses whose do support the school
will probably stop supporting the school completely. [End]

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                    <text>Interview with Rothlyn Zahourek '65 by Stephen Ribe '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS:
Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019.
NOTE: Below is an edited version of the audio interview, some information and details have
been added to provide context by the interviewee for ease of reading and further information.
STEPHEN RIBE [00:00:00]: OK, so the first question is - Where were you from before you
decided to attend Skidmore’s nursing program.
ROTHLYN ZAHOUREK [00:00:07]: OK. I was born and raised in upstate New York,
Rochester, and I was in high school before I applied to Skidmore and decided to apply to
Skidmore because I was a little ambivalent about whether I could do nursing or to do
something like English or science. And I felt they had a good enough English program
and a good enough science program that if I decided to change my mind, I could do that.
And they gave me a very nice financial aid package which I desperately needed
SR [00:00:54]: OK, is that... Oh, maybe we should have a system where you say a word when
you indicate that you're done.
RZ [00:01:02]: OK. I'm done.
SR [00:01:05]: You could just say I'm done actually
RZ [00:01:06]: I'm done.
SR [00:01:07]: Yeah. That's perfect. It's interesting, I'm actually, my brother went to the
University of Rochester.
RZ [00:01:14]: Really?
SR [00:01:15]: Yeah, so I went up there. The Kodak plant doesn't look too active anymore.
RZ [00:01:19]: No [laughing], it isn’t.
SR [00:01:22]: He uh, he pointed it out to us, it was, you know, it was there, but it turns out the
university is the main player in Rochester now.
RZ [00:01:32]: It certainly seems to be since I’ve been back to Rochester.
SR [00:01:39]: Yeah, OK great. And so, the second question is, did your family have a
background in the field of medicine or nursing?
RZ [00:01:49]: No they did not. Done, I’m done.
SR [00:01:56]: Oh, cool, cool.

�RZ [00:01:57]: Sorry! [laughing]
SR [00:01:59]: Yeah, no, no, that's good. And what was your educational background before you
joined this program or your work history too?
RZ [00:02:08]: I was, I was just finishing high school so I hadn’t really... The only thing I had
done was worked at a department store or worked at an office over summers, and that
was essentially it. I had done some candy striping, working as a volunteer in the hospital
and delivering flowers and stuff like that. Done.
SR [00:02:36]: Oh ok, cool. Did your experience volunteering in the hospital affect your decision
to try nursing or go into nursing?
RZ [00:02:44]: I think probably it did. I'd wanted to be a nurse since I was 4 years old. So it just,
I mean, I read every nursing book I could get my hands on in terms of all the novels that
were about nurses and so I really wanted to work at a hospital and I think it was helpful
in just giving me a taste of what it was like to work in a hospital. I'd been sick as a kid so
I’d spent a lot of time as a patient in the hospital. And that was not a very happy
experience.
SR [00:03:21]: Ok. What was your sense of the program before you started?
RZ [00:03:26]: I really didn't have much of a sense of the program before I started. Again, I was
17 years old and I knew that the nursing program was well thought of. I had no idea how
astoundingly different and phenomenal it was until much later and I knew they had solid
liberal arts, which I was also interested in. Done.
SR [00:03:54]: OK. Tell me about what it was like in the program. What was the structure of the
program and what kind of classes did you take?
RZ [00:04:04]: The structure was... I graduated in 1965. So, I entered in ‘61. The structure was
very rigorous. Freshman year was all sciences plus English, composition, which all
freshman had to take. And you had to have a PE requirement, but we did anatomy and
physiology, chemistry, microbiology and one of the social sciences I think, one semester
was sociology and one semester was psychology. And I have to tell you we were the
busiest freshmen. All of our classmates were able to play bridge and you know, go out on
the weekends. And we were always in labs and we were always studying. So, the
program was known to be the hardest program at Skidmore, particularly for freshmen
coming in. Then, do you want the rest, do you want me to tell you the rest of the
program?
SR [00:05:08]: Yeah, that would be great.
RZ [00:05:10]: OK. The first summer we went to New York City and we were given white

�uniforms, white stockings, and white shoes, and a cap no less; a white cap. And it was
our first clinical experience and we had to, we were put on a ward with an instructor in
groups of I guess six or seven and we were expected to begin to communicate with
patients and do odd jobs. We were guided by the nurses and we would have a conference
in which, we made jokes about. A faculty member and a psychiatrist from a
psychoanalytic institute came and we had a "feelings group" that we actually all made
jokes about because they constantly asked us what we did during our shift on the wards
and we would tell them and they would say, ‘well how did you feel about that?’ And so,
it became a big joke. ‘How did you feel about what you experienced?’ Although in
retrospect that was really very important and very useful because many of us ended up in
psychiatry [laughing] as time went on. So, that was the first summer and it was my first
time in New York City. It was the first time for a lot of the women in the class to be in
New York City. We lived on two floors in a dorm for medical students right across the
street from Bellevue Hospital psychiatric. So, it was a very big experience, social
experience and educational experience. For, you know, we were all 18- or 19-year-old.
So, then the next two years were clinical years in New York and we did what then were
considered to be pretty standard rotations. We did medical surgical nursing. We did all
the pediatrics and then they had a very unique thing for our junior year -- I think junior
year. I'm pretty sure Junior year, we had psych and public health together in the same
week. So, we did two days of clinical psych and two days of public health psych and one
day of classes. So again, we did not have the usual college student schedule of you know,
a few classes and a whole day off and a few more classes and a day off. We were busy all
the time.
RZ [00:08:11]: So then, that summer after junior year, we were actually free to work between
sophomore and junior year. Many of us took the LPN licensing exam which I did and I
worked that summer as an LPN at the University of Rochester Hospital Strong Memorial.
And then junior year we finished those rotations (psych and public health) and for many
of us those rotations really resonated with us. And I'm not sure how many in our class
ended up in psych mental health, but I would say at least a third of our class ended up in
psych mental health as a result of the experience which was very positive. Which is also
surprising because the psych nursing experience, it can be really upsetting for nursing
students. It can be frightening. It can be confusing. People often start questioning their
own mental health while they're in that experience so it's a difficult experience for young
students. So, after that we had to be in New York for the summer between junior and
senior year and in that summer we were able to do an independent study that we picked,
and also we had an elective liberal arts class. It was actually really fun. One of the
professors from the government department on campus came down once a week and we
had a class on current events and that was great. We talked about plays, we actually went
to a play as a group, we talked about politics, it was really very enriching that class.
RZ [00:10:37]: We also had a seminar where we were talking about nursing issues and then the
clinical, and my clinical elective was with a married couple’s group with a psychologist
at the VA. And that was a really a very good experience. I felt very fortunate to be given
that experience. And then senior year we went back to campus and I think this was the
most unusual part of the program in that I know of no other program that had split

�clinical and academics like Skidmore did. So we went back to campus and there we did
all of our liberal arts electives and a senior nursing seminar with Agnes Gelinas who was
the director of the program at that time. We were her last class. Interestingly enough,
many of the liberal arts professors said they'd love to have nursing students in their
classrooms because we were far more mature than the other students that they had in their
classes. We'd experienced birth, we'd experienced death, we'd experienced patients with
horrible issues, and chronic illness. Then out in the community in the depths of New
York City visiting very impoverished areas. You know we were a very different group
that came back to campus that had actually left campus freshman year. So we had
electives and then we had this one seminar with Agnes Gelinas and it was really terrific.
She essentially sent us on our way with all kinds of messages to be professional -- that we
were professional and that we should always be a part of our professional organization,
etc. I guess partially due to her influence when we graduated we refused to say the
Florence Nightingale pledge. It's actually a wonderful pledge but it implies we thought,
that you will do whatever a physician tells you to do. And this is 1965 and we decided we
didn't want to say that. So, we wrote our own pledge and gave it and that pledge is on the
wall in the science building.
SR [00:13:28]: Oh OK.
RZ [00:13:34]: So, done. That was a long one [laughing].
SR [00:13:35]: Yea, no that was great. OK, so that was good. That was really good. Yeah. Tons
of detail. OK so then, the next question is more about your path after Skidmore. So, what
was your path after Skidmore and where did you work?
RZ [00:13:56]: OK. You have to realize at this point in my life now I'm now 75 years old, so I
had a long wonderful career. Since Skidmore, I went directly into psych mental health
nursing and my first job was as a staff nurse on a psychiatric unit in Denver, Colorado.
University of Colorado Medical Center. And there I was fortunate enough to find a
supervisor, another, an advanced practice nurse in psychiatry who really took me on as a
mentee. She became a mentor for me and we ended up doing a married couple’s group
with one of the residents, we had resident psychiatrists there. So, it was a wonderful
experience and I really enjoyed working on the in-patient unit; at that time nurses were
doing groups. Patients were there longer term, certainly than they are now. Now we have
very short-term admissions. And Patients could be there for a month or six weeks
sometimes even longer. So, you really could develop a relationship with patients. At any
rate, she encouraged me to go to graduate school so the year after, I did a year of clinical
staff nursing, I went to graduate school at the University of Colorado and got a masters in
psych mental health nursing. Do you want me to keep talking about this?
SR [00:15:48]: Yeah. That’d be great.
RZ [00:15:50]: OK. So, after that I was in Colorado and Colorado at that time in the 60s, late
60s, ‘69 I think was the date that the nurse practitioner was essentially born, and that role
was born at the University of Colorado. So advanced practice nursing really took off in

�Colorado. So, when I finished my Master’s degree I was wanting to work as a clinical
nurse specialist which is what the degree was. So, I got one of the last jobs available in
Denver for advanced practice psych nurses at the time. I put it off because I was in the
process of getting married and I was over-done with school and over-done with
everything. So, I let things go and the last job available was a research job at Denver
General Hospital in psychiatry. And so, I took that job thinking, boy I'm not really a
researcher at all, but I will take it because it was in a community mental health center.
And in that community mental health center, I was also responsible for seeing a case load
of patients and doing consultation in the General Hospital as well and helping some
research projects that were all already in process.
RZ [00:17:34]: And that job really changed my life in many ways. One research project was on
the loss of a newborn -- the grief in a mother and incidence of depression who loses a
baby during labor and delivery. So, I was doing that at the same time Denver and
Colorado was doing therapeutic abortions. The therapeutic abortion law had been
expanded somewhat and so we were doing abortions on women. But the requirement was
they would have to have two psychiatrists determine that carrying the child to term would
damage their mental health. So, I became involved in that program as well and seeing
many of those women and counseling them and working with them. So, the job was
incredibly variable and stressful. While I was doing the research, I was also doing clinical
work and consultation with the nursing staff. They were having a hard time with all of it.
So, at the same time there were a group of us working as clinical specialists at Denver
General in various capacities as several different community-based teams. And we kept
saying, you know, ‘we're not being paid the same way that people with the same
educational background are being paid and our job description really doesn't say what
we're doing.’ Because again, we were a new role and it was a new role in health care. So,
we got together and we worked with the Colorado Nursing Association and we ended up
forming a unit, a bargaining unit, and ended up protesting, not only our pay, but our job
description. Over time we ended up filing a lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court as a
discrimination suit. So, and the end result was that it got thrown out. But that was a very
exciting and educational experience in the need for political change and political activism
when you’re in healthcare. So, at the same time we were also saying that we felt we could
be in private practice seeing patients if we had a supervisor that was willing to do that,
because we were already functioning pretty independently doing that in the mental health
clinic. So, a group of us in psychiatry, pediatric nurse practitioners, and a geriatric nurse
practitioner, decided to form one of the first private independent nurse-run practices in
the country. And so, we did that and it functioned really well for three or four years and
then the pediatric and the geriatric nurses felt that they were nervous about doing this full
time and decided that they really couldn't keep doing it anymore. It turned out that we
became a group of psych nurses and we ended up adding some social workers as well.
We actually incorporated, had a little corporation, and it functioned for several years as a
private practice psychotherapy group. That was really a very innovative unusual thing for
nurses to be doing at that point in time and now nurses are in private practice and setting
up private practice groups and what have you. It's not uncommon at all.
RZ [00:21:40]: So, then I moved to New York because my husband at the time wanted to live in

�New York, and I had some trouble finding a job. I finally found a job at Lehman College
doing the clinical teaching for psych mental health nursing. I did that for a couple of
years and then found a job at St. Vincent's Hospital in their alcoholism program.
RZ [00:22:16]: And I had done consultation in Colorado in the general hospital and at the time I
really, really enjoyed that role. As a mental health consultant you see patients who are
having difficulty with breathing or with pain or family issues or the nurse is having
difficulty with the patient whose behavior it is making them crazy. It was a very
wonderful role. As a result of that, I’m going to divert a little bit because another thing
that I became very involved in happened with one of those patients. She was my psychtherapy patient in the clinic at Denver General and I had worked with her for a couple of
years; and she was a very difficult patient. She spent a lot of time in the emergency room
with traumatic symptoms and she was very histrionic; the staff was always complaining
about her. And one day I got a call from the ICU saying that she was there and that she'd
been badly burned in a house fire. I went to see her; she was in a lot of pain and very
distraught, not knowing what to do. And I remembered back to my OB experience as a
nursing student at Skidmore and how I had learned some relaxation techniques being
used in natural childbirth by a man named Grant Lee, Dick Reed, I think his name was, to
provide relaxation during labor and delivery. So, I decided to try that with her and I did
have a relationship with her that had started previously and she went to sleep. I was really
surprised. And so, I started doing that with her regularly and my supervisor at the time,
again I'm back in Denver, said 'you're doing hypnosis'. And I said, 'I'm not doing
hypnosis that really kind of freaks me out!' So, it turns out I decided to learn more about
hypnosis, and a social worker on the unit had always been interested in hypnosis herself.
And so, we set up a program of doing hypnosis with burn patients and patients who had
chronic pain or were having difficulty with other kinds of difficulties on the hospital unit.
Later after I moved to New York, I had written and published a couple of papers on
clinical hypnosis for nurses and done some teaching of hypnosis in workshops to nurses.
When I went to New York and was working, I got a call from a publishing company
asking if I would like to write a book on hypnosis for nurses. So, I ended up writing two
books, one on relaxation and imagery and one on clinical hypnosis for nurses.
RZ [00:26:04]: So, that was while I was in New York. And also, I was working in the alcoholism
program at this point and learning a lot about alcoholism and treating alcoholic patients
and their families and particularly the addicted alcoholic patients who had a mental
illness. So, we developed a whole program that worked with what's called the 'dual
diagnosed patient'. This was again in the 70s, let’s see, late 70s and early 80s. And at the
same time was the AIDS outbreak and St. Vincent’s is in the heart of Greenwich Village
where there are a lot of gay men and the AIDS epidemic was rampant. So, I treated many
people who were substance abusing, depressed, sometimes psychotic who also were HIV
positive or had frank AIDS. In the meantime, also, throughout my career I've been an
active ANA (American Nurses Association) member particularly in specialty psych
nursing groups. So, it's been, it's been very important in my career as a support group and
a group to help nurture myself as well as participate with others who are like-minded.
RZ [00:27:50]: So, then I moved to Massachusetts I again had trouble getting a job [laughing],

�and finally, I got a job. I did a variety of things: helped set up, actually did set up a dual
diagnosis program and a program for chronically mentally ill patients and set up a
consultation program for substance abuse at one of the major hospitals here. I set up a
private practice and then helped form a group of psych nurses who were again advanced
practice psych nurses and we lobbied along with other nurses for prescriptive authority.
So, in the early 90s we managed to politically convince the legislators that we need an
expanded Nurse Practice Act and should be allowed to prescribe psychotropic
medications. So, I spent some time teaching at the University of Massachusetts, again
psych nursing, mostly clinical teaching, although I've done quite a bit of classroom
teaching. Then I also became involved in the American Holistic Nursing Association.
That fit with my interest in hypnosis and imagery, which I practiced a fair amount in my
private psychotherapy practice. I became actively engaged in the American Holistic
Nursing Association. Then I decided since my kids were grown and gone and I decided I
really would love to go back to school and get a doctorate. So, I did. And I went to NYU.
So, I went back to New York and commuted from Massachusetts, Western Massachusetts
to New York City twice a week and I finished my doctorate in nursing and my
dissertation was on intentionality and healing which I’m continuing to study, teach and
publish about. I continued to have a private practice in Amherst, Massachusetts, where I
did psychotherapy and prescribing. I saw a lot of students as there are five colleges
around Amherst. I also saw a variety of other kinds of patients. And I finally retired ten
years ago, but I’ve continued to do research on intentionality and healing and to teach in
workshop classes and present at national and international conferences. I was an adjunct
faculty at UMass for quite a while up until just recently. And became the chairperson of
the newly developing research committee at AHNA and later helped to develop that. And
since that time, again I've just been working on papers and presentations mostly related to
the concept of healing and intentionality.
SR [00:31:40]: Oh wow, yea, that was great.
RZ [00:31:47]: My whole life history.
SR [00:31:51]: Yea, no, that was great. I have to type up an entire transcript, but I’m not...
RZ [00:31:59]: Oh God. [laughing]
SB [00:31:59]: ...But I'm not complaining. I'm a pretty fast typer I think.
RZ [00:32:05]: OK that's good.
SB [00:32:06] OK, so the last couple questions they’re just about the closing of the Skidmore
program. So, the first question is, tell me about the closing of the program. So you said
that you were pretty involved in that actually.
RZ [00:32:23]: Well, in terms of the closing I was primarily involved in protesting it, and not
wanting it to happen. I actually had a couple of students, when I was, where was I? I was
in New York working at St.Vincent’s when this was happening. The nursing program

�was still in New York and they built a new building which was really lovely. Before that
we were staying in the NYU medical residence with the medical students. Skidmore built
their own building which was a beautiful residence hall and probably overspent. Again,
many of the students I think in the program, in the nursing program, were scholarship
students. We were an extensive program because we were off campus and because
several of the students were scholarship students. And so, it came down to dollars and
cents, I'm sure. But those of us who had graduated really felt that Skidmore was losing
something that really made it very special, and what more can I say about that? You
know there were a lot of us that were protesting that and trying to stay involved. Let's see,
Hunter-Gault, Charlene Hunter-Gault, who was a reporter for BBC, no for PBS
NewsHour was on the board [I think she was on the board] and she supported our trying
to keep the program alive. But the board of trustees finally voted to close it and I just
think it was a big loss. The loss to those of us who were alums and for a while, nursing
alums were very angry and disappointed. And I think a lot of people did not go back for
reunions and didn't donate because they were mad. You know, and I think that's changed
over the years. But it was an unhappy kind of thing for those of us who went through the
program. When you’re in the program you don’t realize how unusual it is until you get
out and you start comparing programs that other people went to what they learned and
what their experiences were like.
RZ [00:35:32]: I was very grateful when Terry Fulmer who was the dean at NYU for a very long
time and a Skidmore graduate, really wanted something to happen for nursing and
Skidmore. I think it was only a few years ago she set this program up, an easy transition
from Skidmore to the NYU nursing program. I don't know what else to say about that.
SB [00:35:57]: No, that’s great. So, the last question is when and how did you first hear about
the closure?
RZ [00:36:05]: Boy, that's a good question. I honestly don't know. I think, I think it may have
been from the student I was mentoring who was in the second to last class. I think she
might have told me and boy the year... I don't know. I was still in New York so it had to
be ’85… ’84. I don't know, I’d have to look it up, when they actually started thinking
about closing.
SB [00:36:52]: Right. I think, I think it closed in '85, I thought.
RZ [00:37:00]: Yeah. That sounds about right.
SB [00:37:04]: But, I think they let the, you know the students who were still like
undergraduates, they let them still complete the program. [RZ: Right. Right.] They didn't
just throw them out. So, that's all I've got for you. Yeah, thanks so much for talking.
RZ [00:37:23]: No none of the questions that you sent me, which is fine.
SB [00:37:27]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think I've got a lot here. So...

�RZ [00:37:33]: [laughing] I think you do too.
SB [00:37:34]: So, I don’t think we need to go into those questions and also there was a lot of,
there was a lot of stuff, you know a lot of different stuff from those questions that were
kind of in your answers. [RZ: Yes] And yeah, thank you so much for talking to me.
RZ [00:37:50]: Oh, you’re welcome and I really wish you luck and you know if I can be any help
to you if you decide you want to do nursing, I’m happy to do that.
SB [00:37:59]: Ok, thank you so much.
RZ [00:38:00]: Oh, you’re welcome. And I wish you all the best in terms of graduating, that’s
very cool.
SB [00:38:09]: Thank you so much. [RZ: Alrighty] Alright, it was good talking to you.
RZ [00:38:12]: Ok.
SB [00:38:15]: Bye.
RZ [00:38:17]: Thank you very much. Bye, bye.
SB [00:38:20]: Bye.

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                    <text>Interview with Nora Steele '69 by Grace Heath '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS:
Skidmore’s Nursing Program, 2019.
GRACE HEATH [00:00:00]: So if you could just start by stating your name and your class
year.
NORA STEELE [00:00:03]: I'm Nora Steele. I'm Nursing class of '69.
GH [00:00:08]: So, what drew you to Skidmore in particular?
NS [00:00:12]: Well, I always wanted to be a nurse from the time I was like four or five years old.
But when it came time to pick a college, I wasn't picking a college, I wanted to go to a
nursing school. And my father made it very clear that I had to go to a baccalaureate
program. I couldn't go to our local diploma program. And this was, this was even in advance
of some of the national publicity. But, and Skidmore had one of the best reputations. It was
like one of the top ten Nursing programs in the country. And I came to visit Skidmore and I
fell in love and I said, 'okay, this is where I want to go.' And my guidance counselor in high
school said, 'Well, you have to apply to another school. You can't just apply into Skidmore
College.' And I said, 'That's the only place I'm going to go.' And so, of course, the rejection
letter from the other school came first, and I took it back to him and he said, 'No, no, no, no,
no, no, no.' It was a clerical error from the other school. But a week later, I got my
acceptance from Skidmore, and that was, in like Flynn. And Skidmore was a kind of a
perfect, a really good place for me. I made some really good friends here. The Nursing
students were spread out across the whole old campus. Some of us were in dorm rooms;
some of us were in the old houses. And we kind of got to know each other and then went to
New York City.
GH [00:01:54]: So backtracking a bit, what was it that made you interested in nursing? Was anyone
in your family involved in medicine or?
NS [00:02:04]: My mother wanted to be a nurse, but her father wouldn't let her because it wasn't
something that a debutante did. That was not, but when it came time during the war, she was
a, the housemother for the nurses. And so, she had kind of a nursing interest.
GH [00:02:23]: Yeah.
NS [00:02:24]: So it was just, I wanted to be a nurse.
GH [00:02:30]: So, what was the structure of the program like when you got to Skidmore?
NS [00:02:34]: At the time, it was a, it's like a two, it's almost a two plus two. We spent the first
year on the main campus, the first summer in New York with some really basic, and at the
time, we lived in the medical student dorm. And then the second year we were in
Fahnestock Hall. So, they found a dorm for us that was just nursing. And we had both our
classes and our dorm rooms were all in the same building. Then we had the second summer
off, so the summer right in the middle. And that was what, the time it was set up so in New
York State, you could get licensed as an LPN, which meant some of us could work starting
then and get a hands-on nursing experience a lot more than we can get just school year. So,
some of our learning got to be much more meaningful. I did the LPN and I went to work at
the hospital where I was going to go to their diploma program. But I went back and I, I
worked as an LPN for the summer and then our third semester was in New York City, was
full nursing curriculum. And then our summer after, between our junior and senior year was

�also in New York City. And then we came back to the main campus for the fourth year.
Now, I did something not really smart. I spent my Christmas money working as an LPN, and
a group of us went to Saint Thomas in the Virgin Islands.
NS [00:04:22]: And I was hitchhiking with British sailors, and I was in an accident, and I broke my
ankle.
[00:04:31]: Oh, my gosh.
[00:04:31]: So I was now six, six weeks, it was spring break. We had six weeks of clinical and then
summer. And then I could come up here and I could do all the classes here on crutches, but I
couldn't be a nurse in the city on crutches. So, the faculty were incredibly flexible with me
and they let me sit in on all the theory classes and do all the theory exams. I just couldn't do
the patient care and the same thing. And the summer program, we just picked something that
didn't involve direct patient care at the summer time. So, I did some things that were related
to direct patient care that I had previously given. And so, it was, but the faculty worked with
me and my classmates to let me finish the program. So as soon as I was off crutches, which
didn't happen until after they all graduated in October, I came back, went back to New York
City for six weeks and I did my clinical so I finished everything in 1969, but they didn't let
me walk across the stage until 1970.
GH [00:05:53]: No.
NS [00:05:55]: But that was, it was okay. I had, I got my nursing degree and they had been, I mean,
they individualized what I needed. And we had an outstanding faculty. I didn't realize at the
time, and I've kind of looked back. I am now, I've got a doctorate in nursing. And so, I've
been looking at, okay, were the Skidmore faculty involved with the professional nurse’s
organization? Were they publishing? Did they do this? Did they do? And I never had a sense
of that as a student at all. All I know is they knew, they knew the topics they were teaching,
and when I needed something individualized, they set it up. So, it worked for me.
GH [00:06:48]: Yeah. So, going more to the New York City aspects of the program, seems to be a
pretty big part of it. So, if you could just talk a little bit more about just your experience and
going back after leaving, like you were saying and just what was that like being in New
York City?
NS [00:07:07]: Well, part of training as a nurse, you need to have experience in every type of
nursing. And Saratoga Springs doesn't exactly give you the opportunity to have experience
in every type of nursing. So, the faculty at Skidmore had the vision to work out an
arrangement with New York University. So, we had clinicals with New York University and
then we took advantage. The, now the faculty are New York City nurses and they know the
kinds of things that are available. So, we worked with the VA Hospital for psych experience
and we worked with the Visiting Nurses Association and the New York Public Health
Nurses to do, or public health nurses, and then for our obstetric, they went to the hospital
where they did most, most of the deliveries in the area. So, it was really, really worked out.
We didn't do much with Bellevue, which is the big, because they had their own nursing
program and they had an affiliation with Hunter where they were doing some things, so
Skidmore didn't do anything with Bellevue. I did get to do some stuff with Bellevue because
my patient from public health had to go to Bellevue. So, I had some indirect experience. But
we did things in the neighborhood, in the neighborhood where we were kind of, where the
dorm was and it was all New York University Hospital.

�GH [00:08:50]: What was the, what was the living situation like in your city, being housed with all
the other women in your program? Right? Is that how it was set up?
NS [00:09:00]: Yeah. It, it was, it was fine. I didn't, we had some interesting, exciting experiences
with our elevator operator and the bathing facilities weren't that exciting, but and it wasn't
really clean. I know I had, in the medical student dorm, it was very much like the dorms
here. It was not, and we had two people in one room and then one person in another. But
then we went to Fahnestock Hall and that was generally one person per room or two people
in one room and they have another, but that Fahnestock Hall also had a kitchen. So when we
were in Fahnestock Hall, we didn't have any meal service, so we got to do our own meals, or
we'd go out to eat. So, we all had, like, little bar stoves, and there was a, after my accident
when I was on crutches, going up and down the stairs and cooking and going out to eat, it
did create some interesting experiences, but my classmates made sure I ate a balanced meal
once a day. And there was someone who cooked regularly in the kitchen and they said 'come
down to eat with us.' And that worked out really, really well for me.
GH [00:10:30]: Yeah. So then going back to Skidmore after having this more, this different
experience in New York City, what was that transition like coming back?
NS [00:10:44]: The, we had kind of anticipated, I was on the, the newspaper, the newspaper staff
when I was a freshman. I got some, and then I did, I was the liaison when I was in the city.
So, coming back, I knew I was going to work for the newspaper. So, I kind of just fit right
back in there. And our dorm rooms, when we picked out who we wanted to be close to.
GH [00:11:11]: Yeah.
NS [00:11:12]: And the suite I was in, there was all nurses. But the classes were all mixed, and
again, I was on crutches, so I was probably not as involved in some of the things as I might
have been otherwise.
GH [00:11:27]: Yeah.
NS [00:11:27]: Oh, and we were at Kimball Hall.
GH [00:11:30]: Oh, yeah.
NS [00:11:32]: Yeah.
GH [00:11:32]: What kind of classes, then, were you taking senior year? After your…
NS [00:11:37]: We had to take a lot of our liberal arts. Our freshman year was pretty much the core,
the English and psychology, biology, chemistry. So senior year we got to do the kind of
things we wanted to do to flesh out our liberal arts background. So, I took art appreciation
and 19th century art and two political science courses, and then we had our nursing seminar.
And those are the only courses I remember. But, yeah.
GH [00:12:20]: So, then what was your path like after Skidmore? What kind of, what did you do, I
guess, after graduation?
NS [00:12:30]: After graduation, I started working as an RN, and I went home to my house to
where my parents were, and then I was engaged to be married after our graduation in June.
So, I knew I arranged for a job where he was living in North Carolina, but I wanted to work

�until I went down there. So, I finished school in October. I got my RN license. I went to
Strong in Rochester and said, 'I'm an RN, I'll work for, for two or three months here if you'll,
if you have a position for me.' So they hired me and paid me and I worked like 11 to 7,
something really exciting. And then I went to North Carolina and I worked in the position
that I wanted to, which was nursery.
GH [00:13:21]: Oh, okay.
NS [00:13:23]: And then I went to New Orleans. When I applied for a job there, I got, I was not as
educated as or as picky as I should have been. But they said the only position they had, I
wanted a job that was on the public transportation system from where we were living. And
so, I got the job they offered me was med surg, head nurse.
GH [00:13:50]: What was that?
NS [00:13:51]: I was a brand-new graduate, you know, I'm trying to graduate with only experiences
in LPN as the head nurse on a med surg unit when she's applying for OB Pedes, outpatient.
Yeah, because that was where my love was. But I took the job, and I fulfilled the
responsibilities with the help of the in-service education people and the chaplain, because I
had some fun experiences there.
GH [00:14:24]: Yeah. Oh.
NS [00:14:26]: And six months later, the position I really wanted opened up. And Pris, who was
one of my college roommates met the head nurse from the OB Peds clinic at a conference in
Wisconsin, and they had a position as she was leaving. And so, she called me and said, 'you
know, the position that you want is coming vacant,' and so I went to talk to the supervisor.
GH [00:14:57]: Yeah.
NS [00:14:57]: And she said, 'Yeah, I need you.' But that was because of Skidmore contacts, which
it's a really small world.
GH [00:15:08]: Very much so.
NS [00:15:09]: It's a really small world.
GH [00:15:10]: Yeah. So how long were you in that job for then?
NS [00:15:18]: Four year, four years. I mean, I did the, the job, and then I got promoted to head
nurse, and then I got promoted to supervisor. So, I stayed with that agency for about four
years. And then I was offered a position at the university to teach, so I started my master's
degree.
GH [00:15:39]: Okay.
NS [00:15:40]: And, and teaching.
GH [00:15:43]: Nice, so I guess, one of the last questions I have is, what was your reaction to
hearing about the closing of the program?
NS [00:15:56]: Anger and frustration. It was like for why? It's one of the best programs in the

�country. How come? It's not fair. They need to continue it. It didn't make any sense.
GH [00:16:10]: Yeah.
NS [00:16:14]: It was obviously something I didn't have any control over, and, and it happened.
GH [00:16:20]: Yeah. So then just looking back at your time at Skidmore, how do you, I guess just
how, how do you look back on that now, those experiences after all these years of, you
know, being in this field?
NS [00:16:39]: It's, it's incredible. I didn't realize when I was going through the program. What a
solid foundation I was getting in both nursing and, and life.
GH [00:16:56]: Yeah.
NS [00:16:57]: Yeah, and it, it's some of the same things talked about in the award ceremony today.
It's like when you look back and you go, 'wow,' you know. I think part of it has to do with
the, the people who come to Skidmore have just a broad spectrum of experiences. When you
look at the different countries people come from. I mean, in my dorm freshman year, I had
somebody who had been a runner up from Ms. America and somebody else who had grown
up primarily in India and in the Foreign Service. And you put those people kind of in the
same environment and they find things in common.
GH [00:17:50]: Yeah.
NS [00:17:51]: And it provides you with a real solid base of working with people.
GH [00:17:57]: Yeah. Well, I think I can stop the...

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\

SARATOGIAN, FRIDAY, APR. 24, 1*64
6ARATOOA 8PBINO6, N*W

BERRTS'WOBID

In Our Opinion
m

%

Negro greats sang in city

*J

Clifton Park leads
population boom

(Third to a aeries on great music)

There are few precedents in the Capital District
irta for the rate of growth of the Town of Clifton
Park in the last few years.
In that period, the town has increased its population 35 per cent. If this rate were to continue for
the rest of the decade, growth would approximate 88.7
per cent for the 1960-1970 period.
One Saratoga County towns and two in Albany
County grew at somewhat comparable rates from 1950
to 1960. Charlton more than doubled its residents in
that time, as did Guilderland in Albany County. At
the same time, Colonie swelled from 29,500 to 52,700.
In terms of people, rather than percentages,
Charlton's growth was about 1,800, while the two Albany towns went up 9,500 and 22,200, respectively.
Clifton Park is likely to be someplace in between, with
t projected increase, if the same rate continues, of
some 3,500.
There is no safe way of estimating how the rite
will go. It is likely that it has actually accelerated in
the last two of the four years measured in the special
census and it may continue to accelerate for a while
and then level off.
But it is safe to estimate that the normal pattern
will see this growth spill over into towns bordering
Clifton Park, with the spillover coming more rapidly
than before because of the Northway.
Thus, Malta can expect an early population growth
which could well, by the end of the decade, approach
that of Clifton Park. Saratoga Springs, as a natural
crossroads and business center, should experience
greater growth than has been normal.
Charlton and Ballston have already expanded considerably. Halfmoon grew a lot between 1950 and 1960
aid will continue to grow because of three factors:
Northway spillover, proximity to Troy and spillover
from Mechanicville, which has no place to grow as a
community.
Moreau, which became the second largest community in the county between 1950 and 1960 (over
8,400) may be more stable for a while, but as the Wilton School for the retarded is built, it and Wilton will
have new impetus.
These are not just statistics, they are people. Nor
ire the projections overoptimistic. Realist as Fred
Droms, supervisor of Clifton Park, is, he underestimated his own town's growth by 5 per cent and we
could be underguessing, rather than overdoing it.
So the figures are running ahead of the projections. The character of our county is changing. Governmental, social and educational problems, almost unprecedented in the county, appear to lie ahead.
They mean that old ways of doing things aren't
enough, that we must be ready to adjust to new needs,
new people. We hope the warning is not lost on the
community leaders of the county, both in and out of
government.

it looks fflce ff flice place to visit, bat / woafaart wxaef

Roscoe Drummond

Johnson takes complete
Washintgon—The most significant fact
in Washington today is that transitional
government is at an end and that Lyndon
B. Johnson is completly in charge.
It has been accomplished more competently, more smoothly, more rapidly than
anyone would have believed possible.
The Johnson administration is now on
its own—making its own decisions, creating its own initiatives, and cultivating its
own image in its own way.
• The one thing which to me stands out
above all others is this:
Johnson has not merely acceded to the
Presidency; he has seized the Presidency
with unequalled energy.
Johnson is not merely presiding over his
administration; he is operating the Presidency as if he had been in the White
House at least five years.
He is no longer looking back at the
tragedy which robbed the nation of President Kennedy. Johnson is looking ahead.
He is no longer appealing to Congress or
to the country to accept his measures as a
tribute to the memory of the late President. He is asking that everything be
judged on its own.

Seed of lawlessness

•

One of the most trenchant public utterances to
be made in a long time has come from the man who
next August will become president of the American
Bar Association.
He is Lewis F. Powell Jr. and every American
might well listen carefully to what he said in a recent
luncheon address.
"One of the root causes of lawlessness in this country," he declared, "is excessive tolerance by the public
in accepting substandard, marginal, immoral and unlawful conduct.
"This tolerance has reached the point of moral
sickness."
Among the things he believes are excessively tolerated, Mr. Powell listed juvenile drinking, flagrant
violation of traffic laws, flouting of obscenity and
pornography laws, illegal gambling, cheating on claims
against insurance companies, circumvention of divorce
laws, condoning of violence, and disregard of laws in
general.
Those among us who are completely innocent of
any of the tolerances mentioned by Mr. Powell can, of
course, forget what he has said.
The rest of us can thank him for saying it—and
make sure we remember and heed it.
I

.

i

m

Remember when?
Apr. 24 1939 — The City
Council at last night's meeting
voted to give parking meters
a six months trial.
An eloquent plea for the
Citizens of Saratoga Springs
"to do something about a terrible situation where our
city's population has practically stood still for 60 years at
13,000 in spite of all our natural advantages," was made
by Samuel Goldberg of the
Ro-Ed Mansion, at last night's
open meeting of the Chamber
Of Commerce.
Apr. 24,1949 — The federal
government has intervened in
New York Power and Light
Corporation plans to build a
big power dam on Sacandaga
River at Stewart's Bridge in
Saratoga and Warren counties.
"Pull study" will be given to
the power company's proposal to contruct an earth dam,
1,400 feet long and 112 feet
Paul R. Rouillard recently

f

Chronicle! of Saratoga

TORJC

received the gold medal for
winning the 100 yard free
style race in the inter-fraternity swim meet at Hanover.
We will row No. 1 in the Dartmouth crew against Amherst
next Saturday and also in
the Dad Vail regatta of nine
colleges at Poughkeepsie on
May 21.
April 24, 1959 ~ Thousands
of members of the Daughters
of the American Revolution
from all parts of the country
this week are seeing and admiring their national organization's tribute in Washington,
DC. to its four founder*, incuding Ellen Hardin Walworth, who was a Saratogian.
Included in the throng are
Mrs. Walter Moore, regentelect of the Saratoga Chapter,
and Mrs. R. C. Lamb, its chaplain.
John A. Simone Jr., has
opened an office for the practice of law at 384 Broadway.

•

THIS IS NO TIME EVEN to atempt to
judge where Lyndon Johnson will rate as
a President. But it is amply evident that
he brings a special combination of qualities rarely present in one man at the
same time. He is the most politically
resourceful President since
Franklin
Roosevelt and the most zestful President
since Theodore Roosevelt.
He has just addressed both the American Society of Newspaper Editors in Washington and the Associated Press in New
York. (Most Presidents address either one
or the other.)
He has just held three press conferences
in the past week, including one big, live
televised press conference in the State
Department auditorium a la JFK. It went
well.
The nation's newspaper editors meeting
in Washington — mostly Republican —
thought Johnson would win re-election.
The publishers meeting in New York—

•

•

•

ON THE BASIS OF HIS first five months
in office, it is clear than Johnson is not
disposed to delay, to postpone, to run away
from hard decisions.
He dared to take the railroad negotiations, which plagued both President
Eisenhower and President Kennedy, into
the White House—and this was no small
political risk.
He ventured upon a personal correspondence with Premier Khrushchev which led
to the uranium production-cut agreement
announced a few days ago.
He listened to conflicting advice within
his Administration over whether he should
give his support to the anti Goulart military coup in Brazil before one could tell
how democratic or undemocratic it was
going to prove to be—and Johnson took
the risk of supporting it, rejected the wait*
and-see counsel.
•

•

•

I AM NOT SUGGESTING that the record is all rosy. The Panama negotiations
were fumbled in the early stages. Our
stake in Viet Nam needs much more persuasive Presidential exposition to keep
public and Congressional support for what
needs to be done.
What is most visible, as transition government comes to an end, is that a very
skilled politician and a massively do-it-now
man is filling the Presidency to near
bursting.
Those who constantly compare President
Johnson with President Kennedy will continue to be disappointed. He will never
look and act like Kennedy. He will always
look and act like Lyndon B. Johnson.
© 1964 Publishers Newspaper Syndicate

Stop reading word by word

You can skip, skim or savor
By THE READING LABORATORY INC.
Written for
Newspaper Enterprise Association
(Time your reading of this column and
compare your speed with that indicated at
the end. The expected speed assumes a
daily 5 per cent improvement.)

many ways. He will read for information
AND to evaluate. He'll read critical, opinionative writing alertly; he'll be on the
lookout for poor reasoning, for invalid
premises when he reads political comment.
You read that a stateman gave a speech
about this or that; your father will want to
know why the statesman took that position,
why the change in attitude, what he is
really after. Your father will analyse that
talk, bring his whole reading background
to judge the content. Your father will get
a lot more out of each development hecause he wants more, and it will take him
more time.
e
•
o
WE'VE COVERED THE FOUR reasons
for reading:
1. For information, and here you
read at top speed, making use
of all the steps.
3. For relaxation, and here you
read fast but not so fast as for
information.
3. For self-enrichment, and here
you read more slowly because
you don't want to miss any of a
classic's beauty.
4. For critical evaluation, .and
here you are not a passive observer, but an alert and questioning judge and jury. This is
your slowest pace,' hut it should
not be a slow pace after putting
these columns into practice.
(You should have completed this reading in 61 seconds.)
(NEXT: Some Notes on Notes.)

DIFFERENT KINDS OF reading require
a different pace. Let's say you're given an
assignment tonight in the appreciation of
two poems by Robert Frost. Will you preread it, write down searching questions,
skip and skim your way through it? Certainly not. Frost is meant to be savored
for his style, his imagery, his choice of
words. Furthermore, Frost is meant to be
enjoyed; he wrote to delight you, to move
your heart, not to give you facts.
The same would be true with Dickens.
His personal purpose in writing his classic
novels may have been sociological, but
what a mistake to dash through his books
as you might a reference work in sociology.
The simply peerless character delineations, the matchless descriptive passages
all would be lost. You would mist the very
heart and genius of the man. No, don't zigzag through Frost or Dickens. That technique has a place, but not here.
•

DID «W KNOW THAT THE "VAN"
IN U0WI6 VAN BEETHOVEN
DIDN'T MEAN AN&lt;/TruN6?

mostly Republican — thought Johnson ,
would run even stronger than President
Kennedy would have run.
Few politicians or political writers
would have held this view before Nov. 22
—that if the Vicepresident were compelled '
to take over he would be as strong, or
stronger, politically than his. predecessor.
This is further evidence of how quickly
and completely Johnson has come to
occupy the Presidency.

•

•

BUT NOW YOUR ENGLISH literature
assignment is finished and you can curl
up with that mystery novel your friend
loaned you. Your purpose now is altogether
different; you're not looking for self-enrichment, you just want to relax. You
know you can gloss over the author's prose
without insulting a great master. Just the
clues and the story is all you want and
you're eager to see how the book ends. So
speed makes sense, but don't skip and
skim to the extent that you miss til the
clues and spoil the fun.
•

•

•

AFTER DINNER YOU PICK up the
paper. All you want is information. What'i
happened around the world, In your home
town, at last niht's sporting event. This
you can read in about 15 minutes because
your purpose called for top speed. Instant
information instantly.
Now your father reads the newspaper,
hut his purpose If different from yours »

Quick quiz

%

Q—How many different products come
from trees?
A—The products from trees are almost
countless—it is estimated that than are
more than 9,000 uses for'paper and paper
pulp alone,
s

e

e

Q—Where was the birthplace of tilt
naturalist John J. Audubon?
A—Audubon himself thought ho was
born near New Orleans, La., when Louisiana was still French territory. Many historians, however, believe that he was born
In Haiti.

-...-».•

Untitled Document

Thomas M. Tryniski
309 South 4th Street
Fulton New York
13069

www.fultonhistory.com

By EVELYN BARRETT BRITTEN
City Historian
Saratoga Springs has always been on the
alert to recognize talent, whatever the race
or creed.
Two of the greatest artists of all time,
who wore introduced to Saratoga Springs
audiences were Negroes—Caesexette Jones,
called familiarly "Black Patti," and Harry
Thacker Burleigh, famed soloist whose
arrangement of "Deep River" is immortal.
o
e
•
THE SARATOGA STORY of both makes
interesting history.
Cesaeretta Jones,
whose rise to fame was swift, possessed a
voice resembling that of the famous Adeline Patti, who had made several American
tours, and was received by huge audiences.
So like the famed Patti's voice was that
of Miss Jones, that she was known
throughout her singing career as "Black
Patti".
In the 1880s and lttO's, her magnificent
voice was heard as a soloist at various
concerts held in Congress Psrk, and shortly after the completion of Convention Hall
in 1894 she sang there, -receiving one of
the greatest ovations accorded by the 5,000
people from near and far who jammed
the hall to hear her sing, Marguerite in
Gounod's opera "Faust." This was the
role in which Adeline Patti had scored her
greatest success.
e
e
•
THERE ARE FEW STORIES more intriguing than the discovery of one of the
greatest of all Negro lingers, Harry
Thacker Burleigh, here in Saratoga
Springs. In the summer of 1880 Burleigh
was a wine boy serving in the Grand
Union Hotel, and was attracted to attend
classes at Bethesda Church which the late
beloved rector, the Rev. Dr. Joseph Carey,
was holding in the church afternoons for
a group of boys from many cities who were
working in the great hotels.
Dr. Carey .organized one of the most
worthwhile choirs ever assembled in our
resort. To this service one afternoon in
the 1880's came Burleigh, having an inner
craving for music. He was singing with
the choir one afternoon, all intent on his
music, when suddenly he became quite
embarassed and confused to find himself
singing alone. All the other boys, thrilled
by his voice, were silent, listening intently.
His voice died away at the end of a
hymn. Dr. Carey urged him to go on.
The memory of his beautiful singing was
recounted by the youths to many visitors
they served at the various hotels. The
services at 4 p.m. began to attract such
crowds there was not room for all to hear.
To one of the services that year also came
the mother of the famous American composer, Edward C. MacDowell. She was
Mrs. Frances Knapp MacDowell, a guest
at the United States Hotel. Like the
others she was entranced and came again
and again to hear the Negro youth.
'

at

•

•

m^__^^__^^__

IN 1892, MBS. MAC DOWELL made it
possible for Burleigh to attend the National Conservatory of Music in New York,

where another of his friends became
ton Dvorak, American composer, a
MacDowell's son was Burleigh's ideal ana
so there was little wonder that he chose
on many occasions in his concerts to sing,
the song for which Edward C. MacDowell
became doubly famous, "to a Wild Rose."
Burleigh for 52 years was the baritone
soloist in St. George's Protestant Episcopal
Church in New York City, and it was a
tradition on every Palm Sunday, that ho
should sing The Psalms, his audience coming from many other parishes to hear this.
•
e
•
WHEN THE GREAT SOLOIST observed
the golden anniversary of his career, some
years before his death, a reception was
given him in St. George's Parish House,
which was thronged to capacy by the
great and the lowly, the wealthy and thq
poor.
Harry Thacker Burleigh never forgot
Sartaoga Springs. He told some Saratogians who attended the reception, "I have
a warm spot in my heart for Saratoga
Springs and for its people. I'll never ferj •
get the start I received there. It gave me
encouragement to strive higher."

v.0

•

•

•

WHEN BURLEIGH DIED several years
ago, the New York newspapers gave him
credit as being the moving spirit in saving the beautiful Negro spirituals for th
world, some 5Q of which he arranged personally. He had sung them before the, kings
and heads of many European countries.
It was Burleigh's arrangement of "Deep
Rixer," which featured the last Saratoga
Festival given in Congress Park in 1959
and was sung by the late John Blanchard,
a local soloist of real ability and talent,
whose untimely death cut short a musical
artist.
•

•

•

SARATOGA SPRINGS had the honor of
of organizing the developing one of the
first churches in this area for the colored
race, the African Methodist Episcopal
Church in Maple Avenue, founded in June,
1863. The Civil War was then in progress,
and greater religious opportunities were
sought for the Negroes, many of whom
came here summers as the employes of
visitors.
The first church stood in Willow Walk,
now Spring Avenue. In November 1866,
the first little church was destroyed by
fire. Rebuilt the following year, the church
was dedicated by Bishop J. J. Clinton.
In 1888, this first church was so badly
in need of repairs, that, with money given
by Mrs. Benjamin J. Dyer, the present edifice was erected in Maple Avenue, and
named in honor of Mrs. Dyer then owner
of the Vermont House, corner of Grove
and Maple Ave., and called, the Dyer Memorial A. M. E. Zion Church. In 1900 the
name of Phelps was added in memory of
a summer cottager who gave $500 for improvements to the church.
In this church many important soloists
were heard in a half century, and the Negro spirituals reached their perfection as
sung by many of the soloists who ca
o cajttfK
here summers.

U.S. anti-gambling statutes

Pressure closed Hot Springs
(Second of Two Articles)
By JAMES W. CANAN
Gannett News Service
Washington—The closing of a big-time
gambling operation in Arkansas last year
illustrates the power that has accrued to
federal lawmen under the 1961 anti-gambling statutes.
The Justice Department tried two years
ago to indict the gamblers who ran the
games in Hot Springs, but failed. It lacked
enough evidence that the games were "interstate."
But the department kept trying, and
doggodness prevailed. With the help of
the local press, the federal men pressured
the state into closing the gambling enterprise to avoid future trouble.
Without the anti-gambling laws, the Department would not have been in a position to keep up the pressure, much less
seek indictments in the first place.
•
e
e
SEVERAL OTHER CASES whore indictments ware lacking hut where gamblers
voluntarily took cover demonstrate the difficulty of measuring the impact of the
laws on a ease-by-ease basis. But where the
impact can he gauged that way, the laws
Mem to have served well Items:
o The breakup o! a dice game in Reading, Pa., and indictment of IB men involved in it. They had made the mistake
of "lugging" several players across the New
Jersey line. Agents found $26,000 on the
table.
e The arrest and indictment of Harold
Konigsberg of New Jersey and Angels
Bruno, allegedly the top Philadelphia-area
racketeers, on conspiracy eharges stemming indirectly, from the laws.
e The imprisonment of Frank Zizzo, a
Hammond, Ind.. gambler suspected of
fronting for the Chicago "Cosa Nostra."
He wasn't caught crossing the Djdiaaaniinois line, but he was tied to two henchman who had.
• The indictment of William Gearhart,
owner of a casino at White Sulphur
Springs, W. Vs., on a charge of crossing
into Ohio to bank his receipts.
e The conviction of Marvin P. Kabase,
• renowned Alabama gambler. He had used
telephone company credit cards to phone
out-of-state bookies.
o The imprisonment of Joseph Manieri
and several others operating a New York. New Jersey-Connecticut numbers racket
described as on* of the very biggest. The
FBI said they collected bets averaging
more than $20,000 a day.
e The voluntary closing of several
racing-news wire services, including the
Noli Now* of Louisiana, one of the most
e The arrest of 10 "turf tiottors,r in
New York, one of whom did a $60.ooo-aday business. They waft safe from the
FBI just being touts, but not whoa they
used Western Union money orders to distribute winnings.
e The closing of a big "monte" game
at Myrtle Beach, S.C., on the evidence
that one of the players had paid up with
a check from a bank in another stato&gt;

* \

ALL TOLD,, THE JUSTICE Department
has used the 1961 laws to conduct 14,524
investigations in fields it couldn't have
touched without them. Among the investigations have been—and are—224 in New
York (mostly in the New York City area),
60 in Connecticut and 40 in New Jersey.
Eighty-one indictments have been re*
turned. Of the 264 defendants charged,
118 have been convicted. There are 31
indictments outstanding, involving 97
defendants.
Except for Bruno, and possibly Konigsberg and Zizzo, the quarries caught under
the 1961 ststutes hardly seem worth the
attention of the FBI and the federal
courts. But the Justice Department contends that this attitude of not bothering
to crack down on the journeyman has
served, over the years, to fatten the kingpins the most.
,
e
e o
TO SHOW THAT IT IS getting a better
grip on organized crime across the board,
the department cites its 288 convictions
last year, as compared with 138 in 1962,
73 in 1961 and 45 in 1960.
Perhaps even more indicative of the
department's activity were the 615 organized-crime indictments returned in
1963, nearly double the number of 1962,
five times as many as in 1961, and a
whopping twelvefold more than in 1960.
The indictments and convictions cover
mostly operators of casinos, numbers
rackets, horse rooms, dice games, handbooks and, in a few cases extortion enterprises. That they fall shy of the big
names in narcotics, prostitution, coinvending machines and illegal liquor traffic;
is a cause of some gloom at the Justice
Department.
Yet the crime laws of 1961 have given
the department a better chance to chip
away at the thrones of the kings of crime
and the hope that harder blows are in the
making.

THE SARATOGIAN
SCtmber: The Gannett Group "

Founded 1854
»
Published daily except Sunday
The Saratogian, Inc., Telephone *
Saratoga Springs 5844242
Robert D. Wilkinson
General Mgr.
Fred G. Eaton
. . . Editor
John V. Hannigan ....'.. Business MgaW
Member: Audit Bureau of Circulation!^
Second-class postage paid at Saratoga
Springs.
The Associated Press is entitled exclusively to the use for republication of
all local news printed in this newspaper.
Gannett Advertising Sales, Inc.'
National Representative,
1271 Avenues of America
New York 20, N.Y.
New York, Syracuse, Detroit, .•
Chicago, San Francisco
SUBSCRIPTION

carrier . . . ;

B
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$1300

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Three Month*
One Month

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1.35

Mall rates apply only where Met* li n o &gt;
delivery •errlce. M a l i »ub•cription mult be accompanied

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              <text>Saratoga Springs has always been on the&#13;
alert to recognize talent, whatever the race&#13;
or creed.&#13;
Two of the greatest artists of all time,&#13;
who wore introduced to Saratoga Springs&#13;
audiences were Negroes—Caeserette Jones,&#13;
called familiarly "Black Patti," and Harry&#13;
Thacker Burleigh, famed soloist whose&#13;
arrangement of "Deep River" is immortal.&#13;
o e •&#13;
THE SARATOGA STORY of both makes&#13;
interesting history. Cesaeretta Jones,&#13;
whose rise to fame was swift, possessed a&#13;
voice resembling that of the famous Adeline&#13;
Patti, who had made several American&#13;
tours, and was received by huge audiences.&#13;
So like the famed Patti's voice was that&#13;
of Miss Jones, that she was known&#13;
throughout her singing career as "Black&#13;
Patti".&#13;
In the 1880s and lttO's, her magnificent&#13;
voice was heard as a soloist at various&#13;
concerts held in Congress Park, and shortly&#13;
after the completion of Convention Hall&#13;
in 1894 she sang there, -receiving one of&#13;
the greatest ovations accorded by the 5,000&#13;
people from near and far who jammed&#13;
the hall to hear her sing, Marguerite in&#13;
Gounod's opera "Faust." This was the&#13;
role in which Adeline Patti had scored her&#13;
greatest success.&#13;
e e •&#13;
THERE ARE FEW STORIES more intriguing&#13;
than the discovery of one of the&#13;
greatest of all Negro lingers, Harry&#13;
Thacker Burleigh, here in Saratoga&#13;
Springs. In the summer of 1880 Burleigh&#13;
was a wine boy serving in the Grand&#13;
Union Hotel, and was attracted to attend&#13;
classes at Bethesda Church which the late&#13;
beloved rector, the Rev. Dr. Joseph Carey,&#13;
was holding in the church afternoons for&#13;
a group of boys from many cities who were&#13;
working in the great hotels.&#13;
Dr. Carey .organized one of the most&#13;
worthwhile choirs ever assembled in our&#13;
resort. To this service one afternoon in&#13;
the 1880's came Burleigh, having an inner&#13;
craving for music. He was singing with&#13;
the choir one afternoon, all intent on his&#13;
music, when suddenly he became quite&#13;
embarrassed and confused to find himself&#13;
singing alone. All the other boys, thrilled&#13;
by his voice, were silent, listening intently.&#13;
His voice died away at the end of a&#13;
hymn. Dr. Carey urged him to go on.&#13;
The memory of his beautiful singing was&#13;
recounted by the youths to many visitors&#13;
they served at the various hotels. The&#13;
services at 4 p.m. began to attract such&#13;
crowds there was not room for all to hear.&#13;
To one of the services that year also came&#13;
the mother of the famous American composer,&#13;
Edward C. MacDowell. She was&#13;
Mrs. Frances Knapp MacDowell, a guest&#13;
at the United States Hotel. Like the&#13;
others she was entranced and came again&#13;
and again to hear the Negro youth.&#13;
' at • • m^__^^__^^__&#13;
IN 1892, MBS. MAC DOWELL made it&#13;
possible for Burleigh to attend the National&#13;
Conservatory of Music in New York,&#13;
where another of his friends became&#13;
Anton Dvorak, American composer.&#13;
MacDowell's son was Burleigh's ideal&#13;
so there was little wonder that he chose&#13;
on many occasions in his concerts to sing,&#13;
the song for which Edward C. MacDowell&#13;
became doubly famous, "to a Wild Rose."&#13;
Burleigh for 52 years was the baritone&#13;
soloist in St. George's Protestant Episcopal&#13;
Church in New York City, and it was a&#13;
tradition on every Palm Sunday, that ho&#13;
should sing The Psalms, his audience coming&#13;
from many other parishes to hear this.&#13;
***&#13;
WHEN THE GREAT SOLOIST observed&#13;
the golden anniversary of his career, some&#13;
years before his death, a reception was&#13;
given him in St. George's Parish House,&#13;
which was thronged to capacy by the&#13;
great and the lowly, the wealthy and thq&#13;
poor.&#13;
Harry Thacker Burleigh never forgot&#13;
Sartaoga Springs. He told some Saratogians&#13;
who attended the reception, "I have&#13;
a warm spot in my heart for Saratoga&#13;
Springs and for its people. I'll never ferj •&#13;
get the start I received there. It gave me&#13;
encouragement to strive higher."&#13;
• • •&#13;
WHEN BURLEIGH DIED several years&#13;
ago, the New York newspapers gave him&#13;
credit as being the moving spirit in saving&#13;
the beautiful Negro spirituals for th&#13;
world, some 50 of which he arranged personally.&#13;
He had sung them before the, kings&#13;
and heads of many European countries.&#13;
It was Burleigh's arrangement of "Deep&#13;
River," which featured the last Saratoga&#13;
Festival given in Congress Park in 1959&#13;
and was sung by the late John Blanchard,&#13;
a local soloist of real ability and talent,&#13;
whose untimely death cut short a musical&#13;
artist.</text>
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&#13;
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&#13;
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April 24, 1964</text>
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                <text>The Saratogian</text>
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                <text>66-unit middle-income apartment complex to be completed by December of 1969. The Urban Renewal Agency put forth theses plans to create three building with 22 apartments each; expected rent from $160-$190/month.</text>
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        <name>EnvironmentalJustice</name>
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        <name>SaratogaSprings</name>
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                    <text>AT NEW-YORK'S FAMOUS SPA: THOUSANDS FLOCKING TO SARATOGA FOR AN ...
New York Times (1857-1922); Aug 26, 1894;
ProQuest Historical Newspapers: The New York Times with Index
pg. 12

Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction prohibited without permission.

�</text>
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          <description>Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. &#13;
&#13;
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&#13;
Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field.</description>
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August 26, 1894</text>
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