12 40 755 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/ed01966398a5fef77aa4a95fcd42cbb1.jpg 9d18520d0ac9f7eac6796e742301f7b2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data postcard Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 8 May 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D25BBB53-9D0F-4607-80BE-974085801494">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D25BBB53-9D0F-4607-80BE-974085801494</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Boat Landing, Forest Park, Ballston Lake, NY Description An account of the resource Boat Landing, Forest Park, Ballston Lake, NY Rustic dock, men and women walking about, canoeists Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse Sumner Wooley Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1900 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jesse Sumner Wooley https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/5c90a7a81a11d3c53c49a82e1e8a6eab.jpg 34cdbc327ff363a9c26436c620610e77 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photo Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Zack Kouli Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 8 May 2021 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Brookside Museum, Saratoga County Historical Society (Ballston Spa, N.Y.) URL Brookside Museum, <a href="https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D2090540-601D-42EC-80B3-763807774847">https://brookside.pastperfectonline.com/photo/D2090540-601D-42EC-80B3-763807774847</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adirondacks- Hudson River Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1900 Description An account of the resource Adirondacks- Hudson River with railroad tracks to left and in foreground Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jesse Sumner Wooley https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/74ebe408549e45036621172bb0a7c1aa.jpg 5767ac8aa4f61a934f84c5656473319a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/68eb8b2dc25cb18a5faa185c1509a389.jpg 1143f130627b166a92f0d1c432c3d3c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mapping Saratoga Springs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1700- Map Cartographic document Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Saratoga Room, Saratoga Springs Public Library Scope Tiered geographical location (for example: United States, New York State, Saratoga County, Saratoga Springs, Congress Park). This field is here for two reasons: first, to present, at its narrowest level, the scope of the entire item (in other words, not every place name has to be listed here). Second, this field will allow for accurate and helpful narrowing and broadening of geographic searches. Other Type For Maps: This subject field describes the purpose of the map. This is a controlled-vocabulary field using terms developed for this project. It is important to note that Map Theme and Map Type are not hierarchical, thus it is possible to have the two fields overlap or even duplicate each other. In determining the purpose of the map, the cataloger should consider the publisher, and, (if known) original use of the map. For example, a map that shows a wide variety of information might be a candidate for General in the map_type field, however, if it was prepared by the state geologist and contains, in addition to everything else, substantial information about the geology and topography of the state, it would be classified as a Geological map. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Road maps Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Transportation Travel and Tourism Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource United States Hotel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1903 Description An account of the resource A business card for the hotel highlighting its modernity and advertising its symphony offerings on front, with a map of routes from Albany to Saratoga springs on the back. Language A language of the resource eng map https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6112e5e6b41a602ff370f2137877b1b9.jpg e08141dbc65099720ea89604cb9b9d29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harry T. Burleigh 150th Commemoration Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. J. Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 28/11/2016 Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Recreation Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. The Saratoga Springs History Museum (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wesley Smiley trainer, former steeplechase jockey horse Graham of Geniva Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1920 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. George S. Bolster Photograph Collection Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Saratoga Springs History Museum Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Saratoga Springs History Museum. Please do not republish or post on the internet without acquiring permission from the SSHM. https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/79c60d18b76d5aa1917582989ee12333.tif 9c27b7ec9f415e159b65af9c17290f93 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9fde38b82410bbeaf85b9321d1bc697e.tif efd31703af4df68b42a2f548d3096a4d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Springs History Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1706- Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Postcard Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Allie Smith Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. ca. 1922 Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. ca. 1922 Publisher Publisher of the item, or of the book or atlas in which it appears. C.T. American Art Place of Publication The city (and if necessary) state or country of publication. Chicago Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Environment and Conservation Travel and Tourism Transportation Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 2/27/2015 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Automobiles waiting in Line at Hathorn No. 3 Springs. New York State Reservation, Saratoga Springs, N.Y. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1922 automobile business history car motel postcard Saratoga Springs tourism travel https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/44872b2fedac3e78388949707393a1ce.jpg a1e517c1142a97239485f36ca79d763d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mapping Saratoga Springs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1700- Map Cartographic document Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 1950 ca. Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. The City Archives (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Scope Tiered geographical location (for example: United States, New York State, Saratoga County, Saratoga Springs, Congress Park). This field is here for two reasons: first, to present, at its narrowest level, the scope of the entire item (in other words, not every place name has to be listed here). Second, this field will allow for accurate and helpful narrowing and broadening of geographic searches. City Type For Maps: This subject field describes the purpose of the map. This is a controlled-vocabulary field using terms developed for this project. It is important to note that Map Theme and Map Type are not hierarchical, thus it is possible to have the two fields overlap or even duplicate each other. In determining the purpose of the map, the cataloger should consider the publisher, and, (if known) original use of the map. For example, a map that shows a wide variety of information might be a candidate for General in the map_type field, however, if it was prepared by the state geologist and contains, in addition to everything else, substantial information about the geology and topography of the state, it would be classified as a Geological map. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Manuscript maps Road maps Color maps Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Transportation Caption This field will include transcriptions of text that appears on or around the item, at the discretion of the cataloger. It should include relevant bibliographic information that is not given in the title, for example, "Top of map: 'EXAMPLE NEEDED' Publisher and printer information might also be included in this field: "EXAMPLE NEEDED.'" Note that the location of the printed text is given in the field itself and that the caption information is always included in quotes. Item 37 (in a series) Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. A manuscript maps showing the main roads into and out of Saratoga Springs. The city streets and downtown area are notable by their absence (blank except for a point indicating center of town), highlighting the map's focus on the main roads connecting the city to nearby towns of Malta, Saratoga and Wilton. Saratoga Lake and Glen Mitchell are the only features on the map. Subject - Details This subject field describes the amount of detail in a map. For maps: (or layers) included on the map itself. This field might denote that the map includes information about, for example, Mountains, Railroads, Soundings, Elevation, or Population. These are controlled-vocabulary terms developed locally. The cataloger should be generous in assigning these terms -- even if only one canal is visible on the map, it should receive a "Canals" subject in this layer. Some of these terms are less specific than others and may warrant expansion in the Abstract field. For example, the "Businesses" term might be included here while the Abstract notes that the map shows mills and stores. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Glen Mitchell (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) roads Subject - Geographic Library of Congress subject headings. For maps: for major geographic locations depicted on the map, followed, in nearly every case, by the "Maps" genre subheading. (For example, "Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) -- Maps.") This field will be especially important when the records from this collection are incorporated into larger databases and catalogs. Lake Saratoga (N.Y.: Lake) Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jordana Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 6/23/2014 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Roads to and from Saratoga Springs] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1950? https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/804135e7847757767553a136e9104fb3.pdf 2919801f4a205373ec6c137ae1a5ba3f PDF Text Text � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/046127e9012dce472e2b0c142d595aff.pdf a8d90cf65d9625aa917fb905ddada219 PDF Text Text � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8a8e2b07aab3e9215774d05e88102d89.pdf dfaccd8e4208a81faaf5e922d93ad1dc PDF Text Text �� https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/55187f1a938b3b5f2872122734105243.jpeg c46781bdaedcd977d8c51e8ad3cb551e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d8c33dfb7aa8211ca9c496835394ad80.jpeg 456bd6bb2f984dc9a993932f70075cf2 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/5da79e524f39720a8ed6a0855aff6932.jpeg 9cadc018ce141d41e929b0a8fb5278d4 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/5502469ad1171ffdd4492fac7ed0e917.jpeg 95d66161d51656529662fb7a9b42ac49 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cdefbc66a18fc3972c61cf839df95e7f.jpeg 2ef61c628b6c93add839a30ea8b5ef2a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8c7bb4e689540eb42217eb29a8ff05db.jpeg 16aa755fe38fef322ea53fb1eda42a3c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adult and Senior Center of Saratoga Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Senior Citizens Center Inc. Welcome Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ca. 1961 "before 1963" Description An account of the resource This early 1960's brochure welcomes seniors to the center and answers some key questions: Who can and should belong? What is it? How is it organized? What does it do? how does it work? How is it financed? Language A language of the resource eng https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/663c25ec77037450f44f1f9dae2afb40.jpg 01b0669d457b30039b2a36be49493e93 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a017eba25096fa3e216bba35967639f4.mp3 a96bc52d4c2728f18d6de80f28018cb9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Rimmele Wood Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 18/12/2020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stories of Preserving our Past: Travel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 18, 2020 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/17b9edff386c7f2179c74f85ee7e682f.jpg 01b0669d457b30039b2a36be49493e93 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0c065f2d4a82cfbcfd3fe97ecd925909.mp3 123f940c4b6703cabe4245ff62cd922b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adult and Senior Center of Saratoga Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stories of Preserving our Past: Marriage and Children Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 18, 2020 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e06004c9867c3227fd7407993d3e0ead.jpeg 931092b4bbfea76e4819679ec22e6144 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adult and Senior Center of Saratoga Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/12/17 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Phoebe Radcliffe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 1969-60YearsYoung-Bylaws Title A name given to the resource 1969 By-laws Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 1969 12/1969 Description An account of the resource The Center's by-laws as of December 1969 Provenance A statement of any changes in ownership and custody of the resource since its creation that are significant for its authenticity, integrity, and interpretation. The statement may include a description of any changes successive custodians made to the resource. Adult and Senior Center of Saratoga Language A language of the resource English Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Document document Saratoga Springs Senior Center https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/11f6298e2df52f9ec42f88c6a7381845.mp3 356b68f538704350663f83ab881c998d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rimmele Wood Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rachel Clothier Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Malta in the 1960s with Rachel Clothier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 2020 Description An account of the resource Rachel Clothier describes growing up in Cold War Malta, New York. Excerpt from her interview with Rimmele Wood Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wood, Rimmele Clothier, Rachel https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/63bc23ca3c9ae2c738f513d9b74290d4.jpg 6031e036c7a68a7dff3c78593160bdf6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/7e9f83af0743394092555795b2b9abb2.mp3 ba23b51c4ea659f8925eaf6008973129 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b21e48258a6c4da901ceebf6144e85bc.pdf 9a4548b0009fcd18bbc5d42ff97b15d5 PDF Text Text Tim McGuiggan Interview Conducted By: Isabel Kroeger and Nate Meyers Recorded: 3/22/2024 at 1:30 on Skidmore Campus Nate M. [00:00:01] Alright, so we just wanted to ask basic information to start off with like your name and where you grew up and also what growing up in said place was like. Tim McGuiggan [00:00:17] So my name is Tim McGuiggan. I grew up in a town called Whitesboro, New York, which is just outside of Utica. Utica was an old mill town that kind of fell on hard times while I was growing up. It was one of those towns that was built around, a company, it was built around General Electric, and General Electric pulled out, which made it really diminish the city quite a bit. But when I was younger, and still to this day, I still consider myself a Central New Yorker. It was a great place to grow up. The food is incredible, still is incredible. But you could go into one town, New York Mills, people were speaking Polish, South Utica people speaking Italian, Northern Utica, people speaking Spanish. It was incredibly ethnic. It was great place grow up, great, great place to grow up. That's it for now. Izzy K. [00:01:19] Um, so I know you talked about how your mother and your grandfather were in unions. Tim McGuiggan [00:01:25] Yes. Izzy K. [00:01:26] Um, and did that, um, affect you growing up? Did you know about it growing up. Tim McGuiggan [00:01:31] Oh, absolutely. Some of my first memories actually with my grandfather, he was, when I was younger, preschool age, like four or five, he was retired from the railroad, he was a railroad worker. And one of my fondest memories of him was my mother and I would pick him up and we'd go to the Union Hall for Friday fish fries or whatever the meal was. And it was, it was his social club, his... That's where he met up with all the old retired union guys, and they tell stories and things. So unions have been a part of my life going back there, not just the labor aspect of unions, but the social aspect of the unions as well. So earliest memories there, I remember also as a adolescent, early teen, my mother's union going through some fights. I also had an aunt who was a president of a teacher's union. That was back in the days when you could strike as a teacher and she actually led one of the first strikes in Central New York. So it was all around me as a child. Nate M. [00:02:37] Can you not go on strike as a teacher? Tim McGuiggan [00:02:38] In New York State, you are not allowed to actually strike. There's something that's called the Taylor Law in New York State, which makes it illegal for us to strike. There are some other components of it that give the union benefits as to offset the fact that we can't strike. Nate M. [00:03:00] Is there, do you think it like, is it equal payout for the benefits of not being able to strike? Tim McGuiggan [00:03:11] It's situational depending upon where you are, so the main payoff is this, teachers in New York State work on a salary schedule, so we're guaranteed a raise every year. We know, I can tell you what my raise is going to be for the next three �years, right? If that contract expires, then the salary schedule stays in place. So, in other words, even though our contract is over, I continue to get raises year to year to year. So that's the guarantee that we got in exchange for giving up the right to strike. I think it's good because I don't think, especially now, public employees striking gets the positive response from the community that it used to. So I don't think we would strike anyways. Nate M. [00:04:06] Um, was your grandpa still involved with the union even after he retired, like more than just meeting him? Tim McGuiggan [00:04:12] Yes. He wasn't an active officer or anything, but everything from community service projects he was involved in, but if they had labor rallies, he was always there for those. He still, even though he was retired, had a vote in the union, so he would always be there to vote. And they were the labor unions in Utica, but I think just about anywhere back in the 70s. They were very connected, so if the pipe fitters needed support in action, the railroad workers went there and he was there with those too. There was a social aspect to that too as well, but he was definitely still active in the labor movement even after he retired. Nate M. [00:05:04] I'm sorry, these are kind of choppy. That's OK. We had to cut it down from how many we originally had. What exactly do you do for the union, and how long have you been doing it? Tim McGuiggan [00:05:15] Okay, so currently I am the president of the Saratoga Springs Teachers Association. That's the teachers union for the Sarotoga Springs City School District. We have 548 members. I am elected to a two-year term. I'm serving in my third two- year term right now, so I've been in this position for six years. Previous to that I was, I think the best term to equate it would be a shop steward. I was a head building rep in our high school which was our largest building for five years previous to being that. Previous to that I was also a vice president. I got involved in our union 21 years ago when I got laid off by the school district and as it turned out the president of our union at that Struck kind of a backroom deal with the district that would benefit her personally in exchange for not putting up a fight to lay off 13 turned out to be 13 people of which I was one so that outraged me quite a bit and prompted me to say okay well we need a new direction and you can't do that from the outside so if you're going to complain you got to get involved so that's how I got involved. Wasn't the best reason to involved or or situation that got me involved, but it's good for some fun. Yeah, but that's where I got in. Nate M. [00:06:48] Are there any current issues the union is focused on that you can talk about? Tim McGuiggan [00:06:56] The school safety is a huge issue for us. Not just where you're seeing, you know, active shooters, things like that, but we have a lot of very volatile students in our schools now. And this is not just us here at Saratoga, this is country-wide and my knowledge is mainly statewide. That's kind of whammy going on of we have a tremendous amount of teacher burnout happening, so we have a lot of people leaving the profession, and at the same time we don't have anybody entering the profession. So it's causing a tremendous of shortage of teachers, which does not, it certainly hurts the districts and it hurts our students, but it also hurts us as an association. We don't want to see that either. So we're very involved in recruitment right now as well. I would say those are probably the two biggest issues facing. Izzy K. [00:07:57] And how do you deal with those issues of the union? �Tim McGuiggan [00:08:01] Well, we have a lot of art, so we're associated with the New York State United teachers, NYSUT. They run a lot on the recruitment side. They're doing a lot there in terms of working with colleges. We actually started a program this year in our high school to try and recruit students to start thinking about possibly education. So we're running a couple classes. My internship program that I run actually places students as teachers, kind of as... Kind of a modified student-teacher situation, so to try and get people interested. So we're going down into even the high school level to try to get students interested and carry them through there for that. On the burnout side, that's not as easily done because the demands on teachers has changed a lot in the past three years and you're always balancing. What's good for, as a union leader, what's good for teachers with your primary focus, which is always what's best for students. So that balance is difficult. On the school safety side, that is a hot button issue in our community, especially if you guys, I don't know if you follow anything that's going on in our communities, but you have a very divided community about school safety. You have a large group of people who want a very upfront police presence, armed police presence in buildings, and then you have a very large group of people who see it the exact opposite way and don't see that as a good environment for students. And both sides are constantly trying to get the teachers to chime in on their side. So for as a union leader I have to be very careful how I address that issue. One, make sure, my primary job is to represent my members. I can't state my own personal opinions. I have to state the opinion of the membership. But there's times where I have to be careful how that's said so it doesn't get misconstrued or we don't pull ourselves into a place, into a conversation that we don't really have a place in. So it's a difficult balance, very difficult balance right now. Nate M. [00:10:21] How does the union handle internal... conflicts or just differing ideas. Is there like a place to debate? Tim McGuiggan [00:10:31] Yeah, we have a representative government built within our union. So our school district has eight buildings, right? Six elementary schools, a middle school, and a high school. In every building there are elected representatives and those positions are a one-year term so every june we have an election and each building picks who they want to be their representatives who are their voice basically they're they're congress people right. And then we have what's the next level up is what's called our executive council our executive counsel would equate to congress They are the decisionmaking. Group for our union. They then, whatever that group decides, gives the officers, myself and my vice presidents, okay, this is the direction we want you to go. Now it's my job to see that through, right? I don't have executive power like a president does. I don't sign off on things or whatever. I'm involved in the debate. I provide information in the but but they are the decision-making party. So, and even though it's those people with the vote have been elected, anybody can come to our Executive Council meeting so you don't have to be a representative to speak at one of our meetings. And oftentimes that's usually what happens. Someone will come bring a concern or an issue to the executive council, make their case like hey I think we should start pushing for this and then we'll debate it and then the council will make a vote and decide which direction they want to go. Izzy K. [00:12:16] Are there, like, what percentage of teachers are in the teachers' union? Tim McGuiggan [00:12:20] We, so this, I don't know if you guys may not know this, there was a huge shift in the labor movement for public employees recently. It was called the Janus decision. It went to the Supreme Court decision. It used to be we were a closed shop, which meant if you were a teacher in Serratory Springs, you belong to the union. �You didn't have a choice. Now everybody has a choice, so when people get hired by the school district, we meet with them and try and convince them to join the union we right now have 500, I think our exact number is 518 members. We have two teachers who are not numbers. That's it. The average in New York State right now is running somewhere around 90 percent. So we're well above the average. But it has changed how we deal with things quite a bit because it used to be just, you're a member of the union, you don't have a choice. Now we actually have to, which I think is a good thing, kind of an unintended consequence. It's made us actually stronger because it has the executive committees and the officers to be much more focused on talking and listening to every member rather than just you know, kind of the people who are involved. We do a thing in our union where we call it a one-to-one where we take that executive council and we divide up all our membership so every member in our association gets a one on one conversation with one of those executives council members, one of those building reps. And we basically, we don't ask them, we basically ask them three questions every year. Number one, how are we doing as a union representing you? What do you think we could do better? And are there any specific issues that we're not addressing that you think need to? And those, that came straight from, out of that Janus case where we decided we needed to make sure our members see us every year, hear from us. We're a big district. We are spread out over eight buildings. It's very easy for someone to get lost. So we make sure that we're in touch with everybody. And a lot of great ideas have come out of those conversations. A lot of good ideas. Nate M. [00:14:38] Do you guys ever collaborate with other unions? Tim McGuiggan [00:14:41] Constantly. Constantly, other teachers unions primarily. So, we are We have all different types of committees and associations. There is, in this area, there's something called the suburban council, which is very similar schools from Albany up to here that we work with. I'm also on the Saratoga County Labor Council. So on that council is people from aluminum workers, steam fitters. Uh... There's railroad there's communications union there are other teachers unions that are there professor university professors have representation there so it's it's it's a constant you're constantly communicating because you if you if you just to isolate to what's going on in your place you're not seeing what's goin on there's so many different resources out there for everybody so we're constantly talking. Izzy K. [00:15:46] In a slightly different direction. Can you talk about kind of everything that you do? I know you do a lot So not just Tim McGuiggan [00:15:54] Not just union? Okay. So all of my different roles, are you ready? Okay, so my primary job is I am a high school teacher in our business department. So within that I teach a college-level business law class, a 200 level business law class. I teach data design class, which is primarily an advanced Microsoft Excel class and I run our internship program. I am our union president. I run our business club, DECA club. I run a community service club that's through the Saratoga Lions as well. I am the lead of our mock trial team. I also teach, I'm adjunct professor with SUNY Adirondack up at Comstock Prison, which is a medium security prison. And I teach the law class and also the data class up there as well. Trying to think of what else I do. I am a member of the board of directors of the Saratoga's Community Federal Credit Union. So I sit on their board of Directors. I am husband, father of three adult children and also a brand new puppy. Nate M. [00:17:12] What type of dog? �[00:17:13] Yellow Lab Golden Mix. So we had two dogs. We have, we have not had a puppy in over 20 years. We're dog people. I met my wife 37 years ago, right. And we got our first dog when we were in college and we counted this from that point till our two dogs passed away in September. We have been without a dog in our life for seven days. And then there was another 10 days till we got this puppy. So, so we are definitely dog people, but one of the dogs that we just had to put down was a yellow. Lab golden mix and we thought he was just the sweetest thing so we said you know what let's give it a shot again so my wife is retired so she's home all day so she is actually dealing with the puppy which is nice i just come home and play. Nate M. [00:17:58] Was she at all involved in the union? Tim McGuiggan [00:18:00] She was a teacher for 34 years at saratoga springs schools she she was involved in the union as a member but never enough in an official capacity she was not a building rep or anything like that, but she was involved in a lot of our committees and things. Nate M. [00:18:18] Um, so you said you work with the prison a bit to teach. Have you had any, is there anything like prison unions? Tim McGuiggan [00:18:26] Yeah, as a matter of fact, I was there last night and I was having a conversation with one of the corrections officers. They all belong to a union called NYSCOBA, the New York State Correctional Officers and something or other association. And they are a very, very strong active union in New York state. Uh... So i was uh... One of them was talking about an issue so i introduce myself and told them what my role was we just kind of uh... As i have to i have a pretty long walk down to where the school area is in the jail and he walked with me and we just talked about the different issues that they're dealing with versus what we're dealing you know it's completely different world what they're doing with so but they are a very very strong union uh... And uh... They are uh... They have to be because, you know, I'm dealing with things like, you know, when my people get in trouble, it's because they show up late to work, or they leave early, or, you know, kind of somewhat minor things. When their people get more get in trouble, It's usually because they got involved in some kind of a physical altercation with an incarcerated individual, you can't use prisoner anymore. So. It's a much higher level than what I'm dealing with in a lot of ways. It's a fascinating part of my... I got involved in it two years ago. I wouldn't tell you it's the best part of my work week, but it is fascinating. It's definitely fascinating. Nate M. [00:20:06] Do you believe the work makes an impact? Tim McGuiggan [00:20:08] Oh absolutely, I can give you a can because of confidentiality, but I know of four of my students who have graduated with an associate's degree and have used that to either enroll in a four year program or used it to get a job. So we know for a fact that it works. Absolutely do. Izzy K. [00:20:28] So you're involved in, really involved in the community. Tim McGuiggan [00:20:32] Yes, very much so. Izzy K. [00:20:34] What's your motivation? �Tim McGuiggan [00:20:36] I love this place. I really do. I mean, you guys are here. It's not a normal little city, right? It's pretty amazing, everything that we have for the size we have in Sarasota Springs. And I firmly believe and have always believed that the school district is the center of the community just because we deal with everybody. We deal with everyone who has a kid. In a lot of different ways. So yeah, it's it's I benefit a great deal from living here. So the more I give, the more I benefit, quite frankly, it is a little bit of a selfish thing as well. So but yeah, I do. I've lived here for 36 years. I still do consider myself a from New Yorker just because I grew up there, but... It's it's been a wonderful place that I have never thought of leaving here at any point at any Izzy K. [00:21:38] Mm-hmm. Nate M. [00:21:48] What was the original purpose of the teacher's union? Tim McGuiggan [00:21:52] So teachers unions didn't really start until the early 70s. And in New York State, there was kind of the grandfather of teachers union was a guy by the name of Al Shanker, who organized the first unions down in the New York City area and started the New York State United teachers. And it centered 100% around pay. I remember when my wife started teaching, my wife started before I did. She knew people that were teachers. Getting a full teacher's salary, who were also collecting food stamps. Because the salary was just nothing. Our salary is still not, in comparison to other people, we're required to have a master's degree. In comparison to people with master's, we're still not on the same level. Yes, we do get six weeks off in the summer, which we get that. Trust me, no one takes that for granted. But that was the center of it. But from that also were things such as our health benefits, which are good in comparison to anybody right now, and also our retirement system were things that were built in to compensate for the salary discrepancies that we had. So that was the center of the teachers unions. That was the main purpose of where they came from, at least in New York State. Nate M. [00:23:19] Do you think like paying salary are still one of the main goals? Tim McGuiggan [00:23:21] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We are currently negotiating. I'm negotiating our contract, our new contract right now, and they're the number one and two issues. The cost of insurance is just, it's incredible. So, you know, you're talking real dollars out of people's pockets when you're talking insurance right now. So they are the main issues. We have other issues about work that we're dealing with about, you know, that you normally deal with in your contract language, trying to, you know how our work day goes and things like that. But the main things are always paying insurance. Always paying insurance, our retirement system is not, that's regulated by law so you don't negotiate anything when it comes to retirement. Nate M. [00:24:10] How long do contracts normally last? [00:24:12] Anywhere from three to five years, I would say the average is three years, but we are just, we came to the end of a five-year contract because we had a lot that we wanted to structurally do within our contract. So it took us five years to, you can't just, you can't, just come up with a completely new concept and say, okay, we're starting that next month. You've got to build to it. So we did a five year contract because we had things that we want it to build. Um, but on the average, they're three years. Most, most are three year deals. Nate M. [00:24:43] Is that, is that an average, like, for here specifically, or is that? �Tim McGuiggan [00:24:48] Again, New York State, I would say, the average is three years. Definitely. Izzy K. [00:24:55] When you're negotiating, who exactly are you negotiating? Tim McGuiggan [00:25:00] We are negotiating with the school district administration, so the superintendent of schools and anybody else he designates. Usually, every school has a finance officer. They're part of the negotiations. And usually, the school's counsel, their lawyer. They are technically negotiating on behalf of the school board, which oversees everything. The school board is basically the board of directors of the School District. They're technically negotiating for them on behalf of them, but the reality is the school board is going to approve whatever the administration, in most situations, it's rare that they would not support their administration. So that's who's on their side. On our side it's teachers, it's our officers, but then also NYSUT, our parent union, provides someone who's called the labor relations specialist, and they help us in our negotiations as well. But we do, and this is not normal, we as an association that serves the SSTA, we contract out with an actuarial service, we contact out with a couple of other services to help us because we're not professional negotiators, right, we don't, but we're not stupid, so we know to go to people who know what they're doing. Nate M. [00:26:22] While you've been president, have there been any particular issues you can talk about that have stood in the way of the union? Tim McGuiggan [00:26:31] In terms of getting it stood in the way of getting a contract or it stood in the away of us just as an association things that we wanted that we weren't able to accomplish? Nate M. [00:26:40] Either, whichever one is easier to talk about. Tim McGuiggan [00:26:42] Well, I cannot talk about our current negotiations as to what we're talking about and things. But in years past, the length of the workday and the amount of contact time with students has been something that we as a district, that was that five years that we had to work on and change because, again, this goes back to when I said earlier, as we're in a different situation in that. We're also worrying about students, right? That's, we didn't, like you'll hear people say all the time, you didn't become a teacher to get rich, right. You became a teacher because you love working with students and that's your goal. So there are times when you give things up for the students that may not be in your best interest as an individual and time is usually the thing. So, structuring your day is a very, very important part of any teacher's contract. And again, how many students do you see in a day? How many classes do you teach in a today? What are the responsibilities you have outside of just teaching and, again, what's the overall length of the instructional day? Those are big big hurdles that that are there. As far as negotiating a contract, that was our last one. We dealt with that a lot. Outside of negotiating issues that we come across in in for us is the entire COVID situation. I can't I can tell you how many hours I put in. So when that hit in March. No one knew what to do. So we scrambled, we went online. You guys were all a part of that, right? It stunk, it was terrible. Everybody knew it was horrible, right. So we spent that entire summer trying to come up with something that was better than that. But it's also, again, that balance. As representing the teachers, I had to make sure that what we came up with wasn't so oppressive to us that it just burned everybody out. But you also wanted to make it was a valuable instructional model for the students. So we spent, I mean, I think I worked seven days a week through �that summer just trying to come up with stuff. We're working with the district trying to come up the plan we were going to use when students returned that first year. So, and that still didn't work that well. But it was the best we could do, but it still wasn't good. Still wasn't. Nate M. [00:29:24] Um, do you feel like, I guess, did COVID have any impact on union meetings? Tim McGuiggan [00:29:31] Yeah, we had to go Zoom, and they stink. We went to Zoom meetings throughout there. Our executive council meets once a month. But here's the thing, they stink in the sense that for me, as president, I need to, it's not just hearing somebody say something. I need judge how important is this issue to everybody? It's not by just what people say, it's... You've got to look around the room. Who's uncomfortable? Who's comfortable? Who's getting agitated? Who is not? I'm constantly dealing with the different worlds of elementary versus secondary. Elementary teachers are nothing like secondary teachers. The secondary day is nothing like the elementary day. So I'm almost, I feel at times like I'm the president of two unions. So having everybody in the room is really good. Having everybody on Zoom takes away a lot of that interaction, but it's really convenient. So my members right now, I'm struggling right now getting members to come back in person, not because they're afraid of COVID or getting sick. It's just a heck of a lot easier, especially if you're an elementary teacher and your day ends at 3.30 and our meeting starts at four. Where we try to have it in a central location so they've got to pack up, get out of the school, come to the meeting, versus just flicking on their computer in their classroom where they can sit in great papers while they're listening to the meetings. So it's been a challenge getting everybody to come back in, but it's just so valuable that you can't not do in-person meetings. You know, I mean, again, picture Congress not in person. It's not the same. Not the same. Do you have any other? Tim McGuiggan [00:31:23] Have you taught anywhere else besides here? Tim McGuiggan [00:31:25] I taught, I started teaching at Ballston Spa. I taught there for two years before I came here. Prior to that, I went to, my undergrad degree is in hotel restaurant management. That's what I went school for. And I went, when I graduated college, I went straight to work for Marriott Hotels and I loved it, it was great. But I had an aha moment where I was working, I had worked a wedding, got out at 2.30, that was a Saturday night. I went as I was leaving, I made the mistake of looking in my mailbox and there was notice saying that Sunday morning, which was my day off, 7:30 cabinet meeting, which I was a member of the cabinet, I was the catering director. And so I had to get home, I got home about 3 o'clock, get back up at 7, come back down for the meeting. As we were waiting for the general manager, everyone was talking and it dawned on me that 12 of the 13 people sitting in the room were divorced. And I was fairly newly married, I think the third year of marriage. My wife was pregnant with our first child and I just thought this isn't a good lifestyle for a family. So I then, me and my brother who was a stockbroker, he was burning out of that job. We bought a bread distribution company. We delivered Thomas's English muffins in the local area so that I could go and get my masters at night. And he just needed a break. And we were gonna do that for, the plan there was to do that for two years, sell the business, and go our separate ways. And we ended up doing it for six years because it was a bit of a racket and we made a bunch of money doing it. So once that, and then it kinda came to an end and that's when I moved into teaching. Nate M. [00:33:17] I've gotta get into the bread industry. Tim McGuiggan [00:33:18] Not anymore. It's no good anymore. �Nate M. [00:33:20] Oh, really? [00:33:20] No, it's only a 2% margin now and they have a much stricter control over the distribution of it. Because they only have a 2% margin, so it's not the racket that it used to be. That's why we got out. We saw it changing. So we sold it. We started out where I think we owned the distribution rights to Colony, Latham, and a part of Albany. By the time we were done, we owned all the way from Clifton Park down to Cogleskill. We just kept buying up routes, buying up roads from different people because we kind of, we understood the system better than other people. So we were making money, making money. And then it got to the point where, well, Thomas got sold to another company and that another company came in and went, oh, wait a second here, what's going on? And we knew at that point, we were like, okay. So we sold the company, got out. It was a good deal, it's definitely a good deal. Helped compensate for the low teacher salary I was taking on. So yeah, so and then I started out, I started out in special education as a behavior specialist. So I took, I had my first program at Balston Spa, I had kids coming out of juvenile hall. So I've kind of come full circle. I started teaching kids coming to juvenile hall and now I'm winding up my career up at a prison. So That's how I started and then I moved over to Saratoga to start that similar type of program. Then I got laid off That whole story and then because my degree was in business They had a retirement in the business department. So I applied for it and I got it Nate M. [00:34:58] What were you teaching before business? Tim McGuiggan [00:35:00] Special education. So I was teaching those students earth science, algebra, English, and global studies. They were in my room all at the same time. Izzy K [00:35:11] Are there different issues that are important to special education? Tim McGuiggan [00:35:16] Absolutely. The laws regulating special education are very specific and difficult for a school district to follow. They're very labor-intensive. It's so special that it is very expensive, so it makes it difficult for districts. So one of our jobs, prior to me coming, I had a special ed teacher come over to come and see me because they're not staffing her room properly. She's supposed to she has a very intensive need students. Physical intensive needs, emotional intensive needs and academic intensive needs. She's supposed to have three people in her room with her at all times. In case one student kind of flares up, you need to have others in the room. Well, we're having difficulty filling those positions the district is. So it's causing issues where she's in a room with all these intensive need students and it's her and maybe one other person when she's supposed to have three other people. So they come to me to say hey they're not following the regulations so then my job is to go to the Director of Special Ed and point out the fact that they're not and I kinda tell them if you don't these are the options that I have to follow to force you to. Kind of thing and we don't you always you always want to come to an agreement rather than force a decision so you always I at least I find I always offer like how can I help in any way there's times where you can't do that there's just times where it's just listen you and I are at loggerheads and we need to force an action of some kind but you try to avoid those at all costs. You absolutely try to avoid this at all cost. It doesn't benefit you ever to go in and pound down the desk. I don't believe it. Izzy K [00:37:14] How can you force it? �Tim McGuiggan [00:37:16] You have, you have, so we have different procedures built into New York State law. So, or into our contract. So, within our contract, we have a very specific grievance process spelled out. So, if we feel the district is not following the contract, and that means any part of the district. So, let's say we have principal that is telling teachers, New York state laws. I'll give you a simple example that happened at the beginning of the year. New York State law says teachers must get a minimum of a half hour uninterrupted lunch, right? It's simple and basic, everyone knows it, it's been that way since I can ever remember. Well we have a new principal hired who came in from outside the state, doesn't know that law, and they started handing out 20 minute lunches. So I call up and I say politely, you need to give them 30 minute lunch. And the principal's response was, well, I can't, I need him to do this, this, and this, too bad. So then I go to the superintendent and say, okay, we're going to start our grievance process. They're violating the contract. We gave them a chance to fix it. They didn't fix it, so now there's a process we file. We write a formal letter, they have 10 days to respond to that letter in writing. Either one, they're gonna stop the practice, or two, they are going to say, no, we don't think we're violating the contract. Then from that point, it then goes to arbitration in our grievance process. We then go to arbitraion, and the third party comes in, it's just like a court hearing. We make the case, they make the case. Nate M. [00:39:02] So since you can no longer strike, what's a way you can put pressure onto the school district or like whoever you're trying to get adjustments to be made with in a way that isn't striking? Tim McGuiggan [00:39:21] Um You can, there's a couple different ways. If you feel like you can't, you can no longer work with the administration. They're just not hearing you. Then you start working with the school board and you start communicating with the School Board. That's a tactic that you use very sparingly because you don't want to go to the well too many times and you don't want to get the School board involved in minor things, right? It's got to be something big. So that's one that you can do. The other is, is you can force, you have the legal recourse through grievance if you have to, and you can follow that process. The problem with grievance is it takes a very long time. So let's say, again, the lunch thing. If we, we did not end up going to grievance on that one. We wrote the letter, the district responded saying we understand that the law says 30 minutes and and they fixed it right away. But let's say they didn't do that. It would probably take two to three months for them for us to have an arbitration hearing. And then it takes two to 3 months for that arbiter to come back with a ruling. And that entire time, whatever we're saying is wrong, is still going on because they're not changing it. So members get frustrated because they feel like nothing's happening and their problem is still there. But it's the process that we have. So, and then the other is, and again, this is one of those you have to be very careful how you use it, is collective voices, and sometimes involving the community, if need be. I haven't done that in as long as I've been around because we haven't felt the need to. We have an incredibly supportive community. Our school budgets pass on average a 80 to 20 vote, which is almost unheard of. So you don't want to play that card. By involving the community too much because you can come across as, sometimes you come across as whining, sometimes they don't understand the inner workings of a school, so they may not, it may be difficult to explain it to them, so you don't actually get the point that you want to make. So that's a difficult thing to do as well. So primarily your best option is always sit down with the district administration and come to some kind of a resolution. It may be everything you want. It's enough. Nate M. [00:41:56] For legal recourse, do you have any, like, it doesn't have to be realistic, but any ideas you would- in a perfect world like to expedite the process. �Tim McGuiggan [00:42:11] Well, I would love for there to be, we have an arbitration process, but I would like another step in there, which is a mediation process. I would, like, because it's usually quicker, it's not binding, right? So both parties can walk away from it if they want, but if we had a mediatation step in, I'd like that. That's a third party sitting down and trying to help us negotiate the situation before we go to an arbitrations situation. I have In six years, we've gone to arbitration two times, right? Only two times. We've, we, the SSTA have won both times, fortunately. One was over an individual teacher and their performance. And then the other was in regards to our contract and the time of day or the amount of teaching time, right. You go through that process and there's no way you walk away from that process without somebody, and in that case both sides on it, feeling kind of some animosity towards each other. It's just, it's the nature of the beast. I would have preferred that there would be a mediation step in there, a third party to come in and kind of go, all right, one side. You're really not on base here. You might want to think about coming to a resolution or to say that to the same side, or say to both of them, you guys are both nuts. Here's in, but offer up some solutions that I would definitely prefer to see. I would prefer to see, but it's just not part of the normal practice. It really isn't. So that's one aspect legally I would like to see Nate M. [00:43:57] Oh, I have one more question that I was wondering. I know union busting was definitely a thing a little while back. Is there any modern versions of that? Tim McGuiggan [00:44:10] Yes, absolutely. And in this town, actually, fairly recently, so I referenced the Janus decision, which I believe is five years old now. Right after that decision, there were groups who were trying to lure teachers out of the union, telling them, you know, because your union dues, you know save yourself, our union dues are $700 a year. Save yourself the $700, the union doesn't do anything for you stuff like that. They actually, locally try to have a I think it was a, the primary purpose was a fundraising dinner, but they invited a bunch of teachers to come and they had a guest speaker who was going to, who was one of the parties in the lawsuit, who was a factory worker and wasn't a teacher, to again try to recruit people, not just Saratoga Springs, but in the area to try and get teachers to start leaving. They set it all up. Rented out a restaurant. When the restaurant owner found out what it was, he canceled it. And his response was he did not want to do anything that would be disrespectful to the teachers in the community. His kids came through our school. We all know them. So it built a tremendous amount of you know, respect from us. I promised you that we made sure that that business stayed in place during COVID and we rewarded him with a lot of appreciation for that just in bringing them business. But so for the year after that Janice decision there was a lot of that going on. It wasn't effective. They were not able to peel away a lot teachers, like, for example, us with only two. So it has died down again, but that was it was definitely. That was the attempt of the lawsuit that got brought to the Supreme Court, and they tried to use it, but they did not use it successfully. At least in New York State, they haven't used it successfully, our NYCIP was the state union was projecting that we were going to lose 15, that across the state we were gonna end up losing somewhere around 15% of our membership. And I think we ended up, like I said, I think the average we ended up losing is somewhere between 4 and 5% tops. And the majority of that was in New York City, not here. So it is very good. It's very very good and then the charter schools Was another attempt at union busting and then if that didn't work as well, so then they turned into a profit motivated industry. Nate M. [00:47:12] Did charter schools come into conflict with public schools a lot? �[00:47:15] Not here, but in mainly urban areas. Albany, they have two or three, but they failed. And then the school district actually took them over, and now they're successful. The concept, the actual concept of a charter school, you gotta, I don't know if you remember, I mentioned the guy who started teacher's unions, Al Shanker, that was his idea. He actually started the charter concept in New York State, but then it got stolen and the meaning and everything was changed. So in Albany, the district has actually taken those school districts over because they were failing financially, but they've kept in place a lot of the concepts of a charter school, a nontraditional school, and they're doing quite well, right? But now those teachers who were previously not unionized. They're now part of the teachers union, they're now getting paid because the phrase that you always heard was churn and burn. They'd bring in teachers, they'd burn them out, and then see you later, and they'd bring in more, burn them up, and throw them out and it just, it didn't work. Nate M. [00:48:26] Is there a union in the general area of upstate New York? Yeah, I know that's kind of a mystery. But that you think is the ideal for what a teacher's union should look like. Tim McGuiggan [00:48:42] I would say there is a union that I look to a lot for guidance and that's the AFL-CIO of New York State. The president of the AFL-CIA right now is a very dynamic person but even though they weren't faced with, because they're not public employees, the face with the same issues that we were with the Janus decision. He actually made that shift earlier. He's the one that I stole the one-to-one idea from. He's one that has talked about the idea of we have to accept the fact that unions got off the rails for a while. We need to get back to serving each individual member and connecting with each individual number. So, so. [00:49:30] Also, what does that stand for? [00:49:32] The AFL-CIO? If you go back way into the very beginnings of unionization the AFL was the American Federation of Laborers. That's one of the first ever labor unions there. I'm not 100% sure what the CIO stands for, but it is I think one of the largest. Izzy K [00:49:53] Something industrial organization? Tim McGuiggan [00:49:57] Yeah. They're one of the largest unions out there. And they have many different affiliations. Just like we as, so our structure is, so Saratoga Springs is the local association. We are a member of New York State United Teachers, who is a member of the American Federation of Teachers. So there's, and usually that's how unions run now. There's the local, the state level, and the federal, and the national level. So He's the director of the New York State AFL-CIO. There is a national level there, too. You will, again, probably not in your interest area, but recently, so the president of the AFT is a woman by the name of Randy Weingarten, who was a teacher in New York City, now she's the national president. She was just identified by somebody who's, Mike Pompeo was looking to run for president in 2024, as the most dangerous person in the world. More dangerous than Vladimir Putin, more dangerous than Kim Jong-un, more dangerous then anybody else she is because she's the president of the teachers union and his take was the teachers are going to ruin the world So we face some of that as well. We are definitely. Recently the CRT, have you heard that phrase. Critical race theory. There are many people out there who believe that teachers are pushing critical race theory and I can tell you with absolute certainty that of my 518 members, I would be willing to bet you that 500 of them don't know what critical race is because we don't have time to worry about that stuff. �Izzy K [00:51:54] Is that an issue that you face in the communities, like, has the community talked about that? Tim McGuiggan [00:51:58] Our most recent school board election, which was back in May, was very heated and very abrasive and just like everywhere else in the country, it became very political. And a lot of people targeted school boards to be kind of the ground level of where So we had people at our school board meetings, because at the beginning of every school board meeting there's an incredibly fascinating moment where anybody can get up and speak. And we were accused of everything from promoting gender conversion to critical race theory. We were promoting a people accused us of not letting teachers carry guns, even though teachers want to carry guns. I don't know one teacher that wants to carry a gun in school, flat out don't. So we got accused of a lot of things during those open forum sessions. And I met every school board meeting and I just sit there and listen to it. There's nothing you can do to convince some people. Izzy K [00:53:21] Yeah, we should probably wrap up soon. Just gonna ask like two more questions. So what's your perfect ideal world as a teacher union? Tim McGuiggan [00:53:38] So can I tell you, I was up in Lake Placid two weeks ago at a conference, and there is one of those stores on the main drag, had one of the stores that sells like funny signs. And their sign was, I wish to live in a world where a chicken can cross the road without someone questioning their motives. And I thought to myself, and I laughed, ha ha ha, and I kept thinking about that. And I'm like, you know what? That to me is what I want. A perfect world to me is a world where nobody passes judgment on somebody else. We're gonna have all different types of people in the world. Just let them be, long as they don't harm somebody else, but I feel way too much. I see it, I'll be honest, it's a concern that I have seeing students in our schools. Way too much, I'm right, you're wrong. Far less of... Any type of willingness to either work together or understand somebody else's perspective. It's not, it's not there. So yeah, a place where we don't have judgment is my perfect world, absolutely. And a lot of hot dogs because that's the perfect food. Nate M. [00:55:00] Based on that, would you say that you think the community is becoming more polarized down to, like, the students? Tim McGuiggan [00:55:08] I mean you watch, watch, well, so a phrase I use all the time and I've actually gotten some people actually reached out to me to ask me because they heard me quote it is, I have always believed that public schools are a reflection of a society, not a driver of society. Public schools are never going to push an agenda on society. We are an exact reflection of it. My membership is a reflection of society. I have people on all areas of the political spectrum, and that's just because that's who we are, our students. Are a reflection of their parents or their or their home lives. I should not say their parents because many of them aren't living with their parents, but they are a reflection of the homes. So what we're seeing in school is just a reflection about the community and absolutely yes we are polarized. There's very clearly polarized. Yeah. Where I don't see polarization, quite frankly, is up at the prison. Feel it. Yeah, I feel like prison is prison to me is like teaching 15 years ago. There's a higher level of intellectual curiosity For them, it's not a necessity quite honestly There they are a much more thoughtful and tolerant group that I see in my high school right now. �Nate M. [00:56:35] Do you think a large community, a large diverse community that's forced to live together is part of that reason? Tim McGuiggan [00:56:43] Yes. I mean, you guys walk around town, we're not exactly diverse in Saratoga Springs, right? I mean this is one you may probably edit out, but I mean the running joke about Skidmore was your bus that used to drive around was white, and the joke was even the busses are white in Skidmore, right? So we are not diverse. My membership is not diverse, our faculty, I have no control over who they hire. Our faculty is is not diverse. My membership is not. We are not a diverse community So I think that unfortunately adds to some of the polarization. Growing up in Utica again all of the different cultures that blended together That's I think what made me love Utica so much was you had to like I'm picture now There's a market in New York Mills called Hapanowitz's market You walk in, they all speak Polish, right? I picture now someone walking into that market, it's still there and they still speak Polish. Somebody like pounding on the counter saying, speak English. Like, no, you'll get what you want to get. Like, if you have to point to it, who cares? But instead of embracing those different cultures, we are kind of pushing away. So, yes, I would say more diversity means more tolerance. Unfortunately, that's one of the only things about Saratoga I'm not the most proud of. Nate M. [00:58:15] Any other questions? Tim McGuiggan [00:58:16] Yeah, you said you had two. Izzy K [00:58:17] Yeah, just final question. Is there anything that we haven't asked you about that you want to talk about or anything we did ask you about, that you wanna expand on? Tim McGuiggan [00:58:28] The only thing I guess I would say is the future of the labor movement or unionists is the phrase you hear a lot as people use as unionists. I think what you're seeing is the pendulum is swinging back. Unions used to be very powerful, then unions got corrupt. There's all kinds of evidence of it, right? They got corrupt and corporations in particular were able to use that to diminish unions but you're seeing laborers start to see the value again in unions there's strength in unity you can't fight starbucks alone but if you're the entire store you can. So you're seeing that growth in retail places that you'd never seen it before. So Amazon, Starbucks are kind of big name ones. You're starting to see the labor movement grow again because of the necessity and this campus is a classic example. Your professors just went through a massive fight. Massive fight. My daughter is a doctor. She just left Albany Med. But she was down there, their nurses, I personally marched with them, I think, five times. They went through a three-year battle to unionize, and then after they unionized, the hospital still wouldn't give them the respect that they were asking for. They weren't asking to get rich, they were just asking for decent working conditions. And then COVID hit, and then all of a sudden the hospital's like, you guys are heroes, you're wonderful, yeah, yeah. But what were we six months ago, kind of thing. So I do think you're seeing a growth, definite growth, which that would be my question. Did you guys actually, as students, see, hear, or get any feeling about what was going on with the professors here? Was it pretty much a catalyst. Under the Izzy K [01:00:30] Um, I, there was a table outside the Tang Museum, um, where they had, they were giving out pins and that sort of thing. So I have a couple pins for that. I accidentally grabbed one that said, I'm voting for the union. And then I was like, oh wait, I know. So I had to, one of them says I'm voting and then one of the says I like for, um �teachers union or something like that. So there was that and we talked about it a little bit in our class because it's a labor class. Nate M. [01:00:58] Yeah, we did bring it up. It was also, some of the teachers who are not even sure now, because it's been a little while and they don't have the best memory. But they put up some posters on the entrance to the dining hall. I don't know, that was last semester, right? [01:01:21] Yeah, pretty much came to, Well, it was resolved in the spring. Nate M. [01:01:27] Yeah, so it was either the end of last semester or the start of this semester, but they put up flyers on the door basically listing for all the students their reasons for being unhappy. Izzy K [01:01:38] And last year, now I'm remembering, they sent out Skidmore News or something sent out an email to basically everyone that you could sign a form that said that you were for unionization. Tim McGuiggan [01:01:58] Yeah, so that would be the only thing that I think we didn't cover was what I think is going to happen in the future and that is I think you're going to see more and more of a resurgence of labor unions, especially in the non-traditional areas such as you're seeing like retail. Retail was never really a union stronghold service. Hotels have always been a pretty strong union area, but restaurants not necessarily, but you're starting to see that more and more Nate M. [01:02:32] Have you seen the news about the railroad union? Do you have any thoughts about that, that you're willing to share? Tim McGuiggan [01:02:40] It's interesting, I mean what jumps off the page is a 24% pay increase. I did not, I was not aware of the ability of the federal government to impose a contract on them, but I had to read up on that a little bit and where that came from. In essence, if the railroad shut down it would be a national emergency, so that gives them the ability to do that. So, yes, but look at what they were fighting over. They were fighting over salary, paid family leave, which is a real interesting topic, paid family leave medical benefits. And that's what everybody fights over, right? So, private, the law of the New York State says you can get paid family medical leave. If you're a private employer, you... You have to provide that, but it doesn't come off like it sounds. You have provide it, but public employees like us, they don't have to provide it to public employees. So, so if we want it, we have to negotiate it into our contract. And then the question becomes at what cost? Cause what are we going to give up? What's interesting about it is it's the, it's all insurance. So it sounds like the employers are paying. For their employees to go on medical leave. What actually, it's the employees are paying for an insurance policy that pays for them to go out. Money doesn't come out of the employers, not at all. They have to manage it. It doesn't cost anybody a dime other than the employees. So it's a question of do you want to pay for that or do you not? We do, we have a lot of very young, and my membership of all of New York teachers in general, it's very heavily female-dominated, right? Teachers are predominantly women. So maternity is a huge issue that we deal with. And fairness in using family medical leave or paid family medical leaves is something I have had to study and study and study to be up on it, so yeah. So that's, the railroad is like everyone else, money, benefits, health insurance. But trust me, the next time we go sit down with our district and we talk about our contract, I'm going to be throwing out 24%, 24% increase, you know. I'd be derelict if I didn't. �Nate M. [01:05:23] Well, thank you so much for doing this with us. Thank you. Tim McGuiggan [01:05:28] Yeah, I hope it works out well � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Isabel Kroeger, Nate Meyers Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tim McGuiggan Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:05:30 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit Septermber 22nd, 2025 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tim McGuiggan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 2nd, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource I have been an active member in our labor union for 28 years. I am currently a teacher at Saratoga Springs High School and adjunct professor at SUNY Adirondack. My most recent position within The Saratoga Springs Teachers Association was as President and served in that role for seven years. I have also served as a delegate to the New York State United Teachers Association ED10 committee. Currently I serve as lead negotiator for the SSTA along with Head Building Representative on our Executive Committee. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c15a90464ad63a5cf0503579a4b12419.jpg c6964c546f859e4f2c3a4150cb515129 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a39cbba293b8171dc8c88e71396c1be6.mp3 dda9a0a0365c8eb8b963ea4965667b7b https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/50e2604c0ef3642e3b730cb62d2cd95e.pdf d9cad02beafcf3552f560e487f047868 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Kathy Carter Years at Skidmore: 1986-2010 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: December 3, 2018 00:00:00 Introductions 00:01:12 When Carter first heard about the job at Skidmore 00:01:50. Growing up in Glens Falls, New York 00:02:30 Learning how to work in human resources and working with benefits 00:03:21 Adjusting to the shift from the business world to Skidmore 00:04:55 Introducing Carter’s biggest challenges 00:05:30 When did cost sharing start? 00:06:45 Deciding the healthcare plan for union personnel 00:07:51 How would you decide which healthcare plans to offer? 00:08:20 The Mohawk Hudson consortium and healthcare plans 00:09:00 Stop loss insurance at Skidmore 00:10:00 The three health insurance plans at Skidmore when Carter arrived 00:10:30 Dealing with challenges and conflicts with union employees 00:11:20 The joys of interacting with other employees 00:12:20 Attending faculty meetings 00:14:22 Attending various faculty parties to socialize with other employees 00:15:30 Serving under several different presidents at Skidmore 00:16:50 President David Porter and his personality 00:17:35 Keeping in touch with Helen Porter 00:18:15 Not having many interactions with President Glotzbach 00:19:20 Meeting various faculty during meetings to discuss benefits 00:20:30 Explaining benefits to people who were about to retire 00:21:48 What have you been doing since you retired? 00:23:40 Retiree group excursions 00:23:58 During her time at Skidmore, coaching people on if they were ready to retire or not 00:25:10 Planning her own retirement 00:28:15 The addition of new technology on campus and its impact on her work 00:30:31 The differences between the amount of contacts and resources working in the business world versus at Skidmore 00:32:00 “I loved my time at Skidmore” 00:32:40 Her changing job title and description over time 00:33:00 Steve Herron’s impact on her career and the college as a whole 00:34:50 Closing remarks � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3903cb6c00d6a91797c4e7e8e10afd35.pdf a785059d2544ed9586f1c39f0bf64cd3 PDF Text Text Interview with Kathy Carter by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, December 3, 2018 LYNNE GELBER: We ready? Okay. This is, what, the third of December already? 2018, and we are here with Kathy Carter, this is Lynne Gelber interviewing Kathy with the help of Brianna Logan, class of 2000? BRIANNA LOGAN: '20. LG: '20. Goodness. So, Kathy, thanks for coming in again. Why don't we start by having you tell us when you came to Skidmore? KATHY CARTER: Good morning, I'm happy to be here. I came to Skidmore April 1986. At that time Joe Palamountain was President. Ed McCluskey was Director of Human Resources where I worked. Karl Broekhuizen was the head of the division I worked in. Dave Marcell was Provost and Eric Weller was Dean of Faculty. It was a great team. LG: Yeah. How did you hear about the job at Skidmore? KC: It was interesting. I came out of... I came out of a business environment, a plant environment, actually, and our... LG: Where was that? KC: That was up in Glens Falls, New York. It was Ciba Geigy Inc. It was Hercules, a Swiss company, before Ciba Geigy bought it. Our health insurance rep from Blue Cross Blue Shield told me about the opening at Skidmore and thought it would be a good fit. So I decided to apply for it. LG: Did you grow up in Glens Falls? KC: I was born in Troy, New York and spent my first four years in Troy and then �at four, my father had a transfer. He worked for, at that time it was called Niagara Mohawk, which turned into National Grid, and got a transfer up further north. So we then moved to Glens Falls and I literally grew up in Glens Falls. LG: Good. KC: My memories are in Glens Falls. LG: And that's what's important. KC: Yes. LG: How did you learn the skills necessary for the kind of work with human resources? KC: I grew up in the environment, workwise, when I was working for Ciba Geigy. I was transferred into the human resource department and had a couple of very, very good directors who really taught me the ropes of being in human resources and working with all the benefits. And I had my introduction to labor relations there, also. So it was, was a learn- on-thejob concept for me. Very interesting. LG: And did those concepts translate well when you took the job here? KC: Yes, absolutely. There were things that struck me funny at the time, not anymore, of course, when I came here, and it was all the political women's issues. I think I referred to other women in my department as girls once ("the girls") and found out quickly that wasn't acceptable anymore. It was in the land of business, but not here. So it was things like that I really had to learn differently, and easy enough done if I paid attention. Few slips along the way, I'm sure, but you picked it up pretty quick. As far as the skills, you know, HR skills are HR skills no matter where you work. You have to walk the line where you're doing the best for the employees and doing the best for the �employer. So those skills I brought with me, and they just grew over time here since I was here so darnn long. LG: What were your biggest challenges? KC: Probably my biggest challenges... My biggest challenges were always trying to- some of my biggest challenges- were always trying to keep a good handle on the healthcare costs. Clearly, because that affected the college and then over time, as the healthcare costs grew, it began to affect the employees, because we in-putted cost sharing, as 99 other employers did. 99% of employers. So it was always trying to find a good balance for the employees and the employer. In that, that was probably one of my biggest challenges here. LG: When did cost sharing start? KC: You know, I can't remember exactly. I could guess, but it would be strictly a guess. It had to be.... I'm guessing the late 90s. I'm guessing the late 90s. LG: And how did you come up with the percentage? KC: The college, my department really, hired some consultants that worked in the area and helped us with how to construct that. And it was salary based, you know, the lower salary paid the least amount. Those with the highest salary paid a higher percentage. It was thought to be fair across the board. LG: So this would pertain to both the union and non-union personnel? KC: It wasn't the union because the union...The union, anything you do with the union, because it's a contract, has to be negotiated, so they weren't in the picture on that at the time nor was the college choosing their healthcare for them. The union had their own healthcare and we paid the premium for them- it changed over the years, I understand, after I left, but at that time, we could negotiate. We could attempt to negotiate the cost, but you didn't want �to leave them without healthcare so that was a negotiating issue. But as far as the support staff and the admin and the faculty, they were all under the original cost sharing because they shared in all the healthcare plans we offered. LG: How would you decide what plans to offer? KC: When I first came to the college, the plans were set. There were three plans, and as years went by we did make some changes. We went out to bid with different insurances. At one point we joined a consortium and we were the only ones that ended up buying into that plan, which...it was a pretty decent plan. LG: Which consortium, which plan? KC: It was through the... I won't get the names right because I've been retired so long now. But it was a Mohawk something consortium, yes, Mohawk Hudson Consortium. And it was like our own personal.... LG: So, those were colleges, similar kinds of colleges in the region? KC: Absolutely, but we were the only ones that bought into the plan, so it became our own personal plan, you know, which was I didn't think was a bad thing. LG: That wasn't a self-insured plan? KC: That was a self-insured plan. That was probably our first self-insured plan. I liked them because you had some control over them and you always bought stop/loss insurance in case somebody's bills went over a certain amount, stop/loss insurance kicked in. Of course, then, you know, if you had too many of that, you might've gone out to bid again the next year on the stop/loss insurance. So there were always things that you were trying to balance. �LG: So when Skidmore had its own plan, there were three... KC: When I first came here, they were Blue Cross Blue Shield, which was what we thought was that of the 8020 plan, and MVP and CD PHP. Those are the three plans. LG: And those were the plans that you self-insured? KC: None of those were self-insured at the time, the first self-insured was when we changed the Blue Cross Blue Shield plan to the consortium plan, yes, and since then we stayed self-insured on the main health insurance. LG: Interesting. KC: Health insurance is always interesting and highly regulated, so.... LG: What other challenges did you have? KC: There were union challenges. Union employees would like things different at times, but you have to follow the contract. It was only in negotiating a new contract every three years that either side had an opportunity to negotiate changes in the contract. So that was always a challenge with wants and needs, and contracts and making people feel, not happy in their work, but satisfied in their work because of issues that may or may not arise. LG: What were the most fun things? KC: Working with employees. When I first came here, it wasn't as busy as it got in later years. So I could have some, what I called free time, in my day and I would just walk the campus and stop in different offices whether they were administrators' offices or faculty departments' offices, and just chat with them. Or at one point I offered to come to faculty meetings for departmental faculty meetings and talk about benefits and to answer questions. So the �interaction with the employees, whether they were the faculty or the admin or the support staff was always fun for me. I like people so I was in the right job at the right time, I guess. LG: In those interactions what was surprising to you? KC: I don't think there were any surprises for me. I know I made some very good friends when I worked at Skidmore and I think I shared with you previously that I had a lot of friends on the faculty side of the house, also. And when I went to a faculty meeting, and it wasn't every faculty meeting, but, you know, my friends would pull me over to sit with them and I later found that, as a general rule of thumb, anyone from the administration always sat in the upper right-hand side of the auditorium. LG: Was this in Filene? Or where was this? KC: So, I think it was in Gannett. It was in Gannett because that was larger then and that's usually what held everybody. So that alone was surprising to me, but you know history's history and tradition is tradition. But my friends still pulled me over. It was fun, you know, it was fun. Skidmore is a great place to work. LG: Did you get teased about it among your colleagues? KC: No, I don't think they'd ever said anything to me but I'm sure I'm sure they did some thinking about it. But I I would imagine my people in my area that I reported to were probably happy that I made friends in the faculty as well as I did every other area. It's just good, I don't want to say business, but it's just good practice. LG: There are certain parties that people socialize at during the year- is that where you would also make contacts with faculty or staff? KC: Sure yeah, and especially in the early days I would go to any party- just by �myself. You know whether it was the social...I remember going to a party for Phyllis Roth. I can't remember why, but it was in Falstaff’s. And I went over by myself, but I knew enough people that I was comfortable, but I got to meet more, you know. Or I'd go to after faculty (meeting) get-togethers, and you know I always enjoyed chatting with different people there. It was, I guess, I was very social during those years. It was fun. LG: (laughing) Are you implying that you're not social now? KC: Well I don't go to as many parties anymore, but my life is pretty full. I guess I am social but in different ways. LG: So you served under several different presidents, didn't you? KC: I did. When I came it was President Palamountain, and I can't remember the year he retired, but it was in that first year-of the date he retired, I should say- but it was in that first year of mine because David Porter came in '87, July 1987, I believe. So I was here a little over a year -when David Porter started so I didn't have a lot of time with Joe Palamountain. But, what I remember of him, I remember him as a very shy man, at least with me he was, and you know I could stop and chat with anybody. And then when David Porter came he was so different for me, you know, but I had a longer exposure to him. I guess he was my favorite, David Porter, if we're picking favorites. LG: He was? KC: Well, he was so outgoing and, you know, he knew everybody's names! And he would write these little thank you notes to people just out of the blue. And I can remember when I got one from him, I just got such a kick out of it. And the puns he would tell publicly in his meetings, you know, some people would just shake their heads- yes, groan- and some people would just laugh out loud. But, he was a good, kind person and he seemed to have the leadership the college needed at the time. At least from my viewpoint. He �was well-liked and his wife was very nice, and I still have lunch with her to this day. And you know that David died a few years ago as we all remember, you know, but Helen is still local and she's a good egg. So I keep getting together with her. There are other retirees, you know, retirees are always fun for me. They were the fun group and there was a lot I socialized with. And there's a few that are still around that I knew well and that I still see. LG: So who was president when you retired? KC: When I retired Phil Glotzbach was president. LG: And you had similar kinds of interactions with Phil? KC: I didn't have many interactions with Phil. I think he knew who I was, of course, but there wasn't as many opportunities, I guess, to interact with him. After David left, we had our first female president, and she wasn’t here that long and then I think Phil came after. And I didn't have a lot of interaction with Jamie Studley, our female president. But I certainly knew her, also. You know, when anybody new on that level came, I would go over to their home and sit and go over the benefits with them and their spouse, if they had one, or partner, and explain it. So I certainly had an opportunity to meet everybody at first. You know, it was the same with any new employees that came that were benefit-eligible. I got to know so many people on campus because I was the one who had to explain the benefits to them so that really gave me an easy way to meet people. LG: So would you meet with a group or meet individually? KC: Sometimes I met individually, but I would have a group meeting and I might have five or six in it, I might have two, I might have three. If it was one, you know, it's just done in my office but I can't remember how often I did the group meetings- maybe it was monthly or every couple weeks, depending on the hiring, of course. You know, but that was a nice way for me to meet �people and they got to know me and I think it's always easier when you can put a face to a name so if you do need help in an area you know who to reach out to. LG: So you would be explaining benefits to people as they were coming in? KC: Yes. LG: What about people who were about to retire? KC: Oh, I'm the one that helped all of them and that wasLG: Did you start that program? KC: You know, I don't know. I just did what I was used to doing when somebody was going to exit. They needed to understand what benefits they were going to leave with and how they would work and what paperwork needed to fill out for to get money, so they can make a nice living, or connect them with one of the reps from the retirement companies to go over their retirement plan, even before they were going to retire to make sure they were on the right path so they could have a good retirement. LG: When you first came were TIAA-CREF and Vanguard already the providers? KC: Yes, yes. I think Vanguard was relatively new then, but a lot of our employees- it was probably half-and-half, you know, half went to TIAA and half went to Vanguard. So they had a presence on campus for sure. Both good companies. LG: So, Kathy, what have you been doing since you retired? KC: Um, I guess just living life. I've been gone 8 years now. This month- it's 8 years at the end of the month. I have a daughter and her family locally, so my two grandchildren are local, so my grandson is 13. So he doesn't need a �sitter anymore, but my granddaughter- I'm the back-up when my daughter needs help, which I'm happy to do or there's lots of sleepovers with that sweet little seven-year-old. I have a handful of good friends that I'll go to lunch with or dinner with or go to the movies with. I can catch up on books, or, I own my own home, so I have quite a large yard to take care of. I have a huge flower garden. I've done some traveling but not extensively. You know, I've been to Canada. I visited Texas. I've been to Maine. I've been to Chicago. You know... LG: Do you travel alone or do you travel with a group? KC: No, I've traveled alone usually and sometimes, sometimes, once in a while it was with a group. But mostly alone and it's to people I know. So I don't think my travel has been extensive, but it's been enough for me. LG: Do you ever go with retiree groups on their excursions? KC: No, I haven't. I haven't felt the need to, or the time, to tell you the truth. I can remember always coaching people that come to me and say, you know, I don't know if I should retire. And I'd always say, you know, you know when you're ready to retire, and it happened with me, too. I knew when I was ready to retire. And, you know, I had a full life right from the beginning, and the employees that retired would come back and say to me, "I don't know where I found time to work before." Well, I've begun to say that phrase. I don't have time to keep adding new things in it because my calendar is pretty booked, so.... LG: Would people be worried about having enough to live on? KC: I think people should always be worried about that you can, you know, very easily take care of planning by taking advantage of things Skidmore HR office offers. They bring in a retirement specialist not affiliated with either company, who's excellent. They bring in TIAA-CREF, they bring in Vanguard, so people should always be aware of that. �LG: What involvement did you have with that, bringing people in? KC: I brought in, I made arrangements, sort of arrangements, you know, because these people were already available to you. And other colleges had recommended Dave Carbone, so I made arrangements to get him in here and I think he's been a pretty big hit, because he still comes here. LG: Do you want to explain what he does? KC: Well, I went to him as an employee because I wanted to see. And he really goes over your plan. What are your plans, what are you thinking, have you filled out a budget, so do you know how much money you think you will need? How do you have your money situated in funds? How much you should withdraw, what percentage you should withdraw a year to make sure it lasted as long as you could. So, you know, he really goes over so, so many things with employees. So they really should take advantage. And of course, the TIAA-CREF and the Vanguard people are looking at their plan and asking you what your goals are. And you always have to look at your history of your family and this might sound morbid, but you know how long your mother and father survived. How long did your siblings survive to get an idea and is just an idea of how long you are going to survive. So do you need retirement funds for 15 years or 30 years? So you know, those are all legitimate things to start thinking about. I can remember I went to somebody else after I had gone to Dave and I actually made these charts on an Excel spreadsheet where I had all my income coming in in my budget going out and you know the man I saw, it was local and of course he knew me, and he just laughed and shook his head. And said, "Not many people bring this, these charts but they look pretty good." So I think I was exposed to it for so many years, I just went ahead and played with numbers for myself. But these people will help you do that so... LG: So what kinds of things were most fun, and what kinds of things did you bring to the table at Skidmore that hadn't been here before? �KC: You know I don't know what I brought that wasn't here before because Skidmore had a pretty good system set up. I don't know if I brought more people skills or not to be honest with you. I like to think I did, but I don't know because, you know, you don't know what you don't know, you know? I think- I'm pretty sure I had to bring a level of assistance to employees they might not have gotten before because I was so hands-on. LG: The other day you were talking about technology. KC: Well, that's true. Technology was interesting because in the early years I talked about where I would go roaming, really, sometimes for an hour on campus to pop in and talk to people and it was a good way to connect. But as the years went on, and technology got better, and these new programs were brought in. It was wonderful because you got all these reports coming out the back end which helped you in your job no matter what kind of job you had, but it also took more time to input all the information and the data that was needed so you can get the reports out. So I found over the years, and other people also did as we spoke of it, bound to the office more because there was, there were more hands-on things you had to do technology wise. I know one of the big differences working for business and then coming to the college was in business you could assign people to do a lot, whether it was to write a letter, type a letter for you (which was called typing back then) or put some information into the computers for you. But when you, when I came here, really you were at, you know, even in business, I had a whole law department I could call on down near the city for any legal questions I had. So you know your contacts are all there because they worked with you. But when I came here, you know, you really did your own letters, and you did your own calls and you had to investigate all the legal ramifications yourself. As time went on, and different HR directors came in, you know, there were those contacts set up, but it wasn't for years, probably until the last HR director came in that I really have a goodLG: And who was that? �KC: Barbara Beck- that I really had a good contact. And she was the first one that brought in the law firm, and they did a lot for the college in other areas, but for me it was a good contact for labor relations issues. If I couldn't interpret the contract myself or the law. And they had some good benefit people connected to them either in Albany or Syracuse. So, you know, it was a lot of years where you had to scramble and find your own resources on this. So, you know, the college evolved over time and got better, as you would expect. LG: So, are there other things you want to say about your time at Skidmore? KC: You know, I personally loved working at Skidmore. I loved my job. I loved helping people. I loved helping Skidmore. It was fun and... LG: Did your job title change over the years? KC: I always did the same work and my title changed over the years to reflect the union part, which, you know, I guess... LG: So when you came, your title was? KC: I was the Assistant Director for Benefits and then as the union side of it grew, when Steve Haran was here as the business manager, he really was the key contact for the union. And I think I talked about him when I was in before. He did a lot for the college, and I don't think everybody could see that and I understand it. But he was fun to learn from because he had a lot of knowledge on how to negotiate things. Whether it was with the contractor on getting supplies for a new building or negotiating with the union and I think I mentioned before that he'd turn the budget into pennies and maybe it would end up as: "We have 15 pennies and we can spend it on these items. It's going to be up to both of us to agree on how to spend it." And I could never ever figure out how he got it down [to] pennies. I gave up trying, but I �learned a lot from him and then when he retired, the HR director really took over the role of lead negotiator and it was probably the first, it was it was probably the first director that could assume those duties. And, you know, my role over the 25 years I was here just kept growing on the union side. So eventually I probably had the longest title at the college. LG: Which was? KC: It was Assistant Director for Benefits, Administration, and Labor Relations. And that really reflected you know the two sides of the house I did. After I left I think they hired somebody to do labor relations. And they, you know, they split it out. But I must be, I juggled well at the time. LG: Anything else you want to add? KC: Not that I can think of other than again I'll say Skidmore is a great place to work. The employees, the faculty, they were fun people, intense people at times, sometimes mad people, but always the best. It was a great place to work. LG: Well, thank you Kathy, it's been a pleasure. KC: Thank you, Lynne. Thank you, Brianna. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kathy Carter Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:13 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit February 14, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kathy Carter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 3, 2018 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Kathy Carter joined Skidmore’s Human Resources team in 1986 where her primary responsibilities included administering the college’s benefits programs and managing its labor relations. In this interview she describes transitioning from a corporate to academic work setting, overseeing complicated health insurance programs, negotiating union contracts, and -most especially- her enjoyment in interacting with employees across the college. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History CREF David Carboni David Porter Helen Porter Human Resources Labor Relations/Benefits Retirement Planning TIAA Vanguard https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/de860674e4f21c1ec12feabd7562de51.jpg a3ad1eb55f3ddb9f81814b2dfa1d6a8f Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource No. 51 Indian Encampment Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource early 1800s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Iroquois Beadwork Blog (originally published 1886) http://iroquoisbeadwork.blogspot.com/2014/06/mohawks-abenakis-and-indian-encampments.html Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Notman Photographic Co. Abstract A summary of the resource. A photo of three girls, probably Mohawk, in an Indian encampment in Congress Park, Saratoga Springs native american photograph Saratoga Springs https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a4febe7cf33f0191f03529ea0cdf7d03.jpg 4318979714898cb48f998e15135fb98b https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/213943b67782ade09cc11ea0c2c24de5.m4a 26b87ee82076dd6456df1cd1bcabc569 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/60d15809ac8e1770c91d32041e20c132.pdf 8c3ed2b7813957838086febd1b325c34 PDF Text Text Interview with Sue Rosenberg by Susan Bender, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, February 11, 2025. SUSAN BENDER: This is Sue Bender interviewing Sue Rosenberg for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project. It's February 11th, 2025, and we are here in the Lucy Scribner Library. Hello, Sue. Glad to have you with us. SUE ROSENBERG: Hello there. SB: Sue, I wonder if we could begin with just talking about your childhood, where you grew up, what your early childhood memories are like. SR: I grew up, I was born in Manhattan, Kansas, because my dad worked at Kansas State. My dad was an academic. He was a playwright and taught drama and English. So, he was at K-State for 10 years or so. We lived for a year in New Orleans because he got a job at Tulane. We spent a summer in Vermont because he had a job at Burlington. We spent a year in Birmingham, England because he got a Fulbright scholarship and taught at Birmingham, directed some plays. So, I kind of grew up the academic brat. I mostly grew up in Pittsburgh, because he was at Carnegie Mellon for many, many years in the drama department there. So, I sort of liked academe, I liked school. My mom did a lot of working on and off. They had met, my folks, had met doing repertory theater in Massachusetts. So, they were just into that a lot. I did not care for theater, but I did like academics. So, I grew up mostly in Pittsburgh. I went to Kenyon College, where my dad had been. I asked my dad like, "What college should I apply to?" He said, "Kenyon's real pretty." Had to pass the Kenyon review. So what about that? So, I applied to like two colleges. Back in those days, you didn't get pounded with all those magazines from the colleges. So, I went to Kenyon. I spent a year abroad in Germany, in Tübingen, an old medieval town. It was beautiful. I ended up majoring in history, which I really liked in high school, European history, and I ended up with a double major in German just because I had done so much German. I thought I wanted to go to grad school and be a professor because I really liked the college life. Didn't want to do the corporate thing and wear pantyhose, and it just was not me. So, I went for a year to North Carolina in Chapel Hill, but I hated it. It was at a time, it was in the '80s, when there was a glut of historians. So, they kind of made it like boot camp, and I was going to have to spend five years to learn Latin as well as the French and German I knew, and I just thought it was just not fun. It's just the joy was sucked out of it, so I quit, and then I didn't know what to do. So, I was a secretary, because I could type. I was a secretary at Carnegie Mellon and other places, and I just kind of fell into a job editing the computing center newsletter at CMU, and we won some awards and it was just a fun thing to do, and I thought, "Magazines? I love magazines." So I ended up working at Carnegie Mellon at the computing center, and then back at Kenyon, where I hadn't been for 15 years, and I did some publications at Kenyon, and then I Page 1 of 16 �went to Binghamton, did the same sort of thing, publications at Binghamton. Did not love the public university union thing. Thought I might, but didn't, so I was looking again for a private school, and there was Skidmore, which I didn't know much about, but Upstate New York seemed nice. Yeah. So, I was at Skidmore for what, like 25 years, something like that? Yeah, yeah. SB: Do you remember what year, when you came? SR: It was '91. I want to say it was late in '91, I think. SB: Okay. SR: Yep, yep. SB: And just maybe talk a little bit about what Skidmore was like when you first got here in '91. SR: It was nice, I got to say. I liked all my colleagues. I got interviewed by like a hundred people. And it was just about to start the big campaign. SB: What campaign is that? Under which president? David? SR: Porter. SB: Okay. SR: It was David Porter's last campaign. I forget what it was called. But I liked David Porter. I liked the folks I worked with. Loved my boss, Bob Kimmerle. So, it was good. And I was hired this time to do just the magazine, not having to do all kinds of brochures and leaflets and other stuff. So I liked that. I could really focus on the magazine. And then it was a tabloid. It was... SB: The magazine being Scope? SR: Scope. Yep. It was called Scope for the longest time, and it was a six-times-a-year tabloid. Also, really good. The previous person, the previous editor, I think, had been really good, Jackie Page 2 of 16 �Donnelly. I read it when I applied and I thought, "Ooh, this is a fun little tabloid thing. It's literate and clever and interesting stories." So I thought, "Yeah, I'd like to take this on." And then Kent Jones was the VP, because we were under Admissions. The PR office was under Admissions at that time, and that was Kent Jones. And he somehow got some money from a bunch of trustees, or some trustees gave him money, whatever, to switch to a magazine. So that definitely costs more to print, but then went to a quarterly magazine. So, we got a better budget for photography and hiring freelancers, and we had a really good run. Had a really good run. I really liked doing the magazine. It was a great, great job. I used to get up in the morning and think, "Yeah, what am I going to do today? This is great." Not many people get to do that in their job. I realized how good that was. SB: So, what were your priorities for developing Scope then in the time that you were here? SR: Well, we wanted to make sure it got read, you know? That's really the main thing. So often it just goes into the bottom of the birdcage, you know? All those things do. And you know, people read Class Notes, but you don't know how much they read of the other stuff. So I wanted it to be a readable magazine that would be on your coffee table, that even if you weren't part of Skidmore, you might go, "Oh, this is an interesting little portrait of some person with an interesting job," or whatever. So, we just did a lot of interesting alumni interviews. When we had some money for budget, we did a lot of photography spreads. We did some that were very fun, maybe an eightpage spread with a big photo on each page and just a little paragraph. We did one about the people who have their kids at the daycare center with a picture of the mom or dad and the little kid. Adorable. We did one about staff. We did one with Larry Britt, the security guy, and the house cleaner, and somebody else, and somebody else, people you wouldn't know that are there to keep the lights on and shovel the walks and whatever, and a little portrait of them. We did one of people on the staff or faculty who had kids at the school at that time. So, you got a little student profile with their mom or dad (we did Una Bray and her daughter), and those were beautiful. We got nice photographers. We did one of dogs. The dogs really upset the vice president, who was by then Michael Casey. He thought that was a terrible idea, but about five years later, he admitted that it turned out to be a great idea. It was one of the magazines that most alum said, "Oh, I remember that issue." It was about people who bring their dogs to campus and who were kind of known on campus for having a dog. So I think it just really personalized Skidmore without beating people over the head. I fought very hard year after year after year not to have a donation envelope bound into the center, because, of course, the fundraisers always want that. But I was able to kind of convince or, I don't know, somehow I got away with not doing stories on things that weren't stories, but were ads. SB: Right. Page 3 of 16 �SR: Because the fundraisers want the magazine to be theirs, and they want it to be a brochure that says, "Now give to us," and I don't think the magazine works well that way, and all schools and all magazines do that little struggle, or dance, or whatever. The idea is for me, the magazine softens up the ground and then you can send the troops in and say, "Give me your damn money," but the magazine doesn't have to say that. The magazine has to say, "Remember Skidmore? Remember how you felt good at Skidmore?" or something vague and effective like that without saying, "Toss up some money." Yeah, and I think it did that, I think it served that. We did some surveys, we did a number of reader surveys, and they were always good. People read a lot of parts of it, not just the Class Notes, and we won some awards from CASE [Council for Advancement and Support of Education]. So yeah, I think we did pretty well. SB: So what were some of the awards? SR: Mostly the awards were for writing. They had an award for staff writing, because we had really great staff. We had Barbara Melville, and then the associate editor was Anne Hockenos, and then Marianne Snell, and then a couple other people in the department, Andrea Wise, who was the news person, she wrote occasionally. Peter MacDonald, who was the publications person, he wrote occasionally. Because they were all good writers. So we had some good features and good stories written by all those people. As a staff, we were, very small, it was one full-timer and a half-timer, and then a couple people who were just once or twice a year they would write. So, for a small school and a small staff, I think we had all good writers. Yeah, so they liked the writing, they liked the style. I wrote a little editor's essay that was kind of comedic, and they liked that. And at one point when we actually went to the magazine, we did get Most Improved from the tabloid. But we did not get a national. I don't think we even went for national awards, but regional. And we were going up against people in this region which were like Johns Hopkins and some really good magazines, some big schools and good magazines, so we felt pretty good about that. Yeah. SB: You should. So by implication, it sounds like your audience, the people that you're writing for, were mainly alumni. SR: Yep. SB: Were there folks, were there audiences outside of that that you tried to engage? Page 4 of 16 �SR: Not too much. Parents a little bit, because those are the other kind of donors, potential donors. But no, it was really, it's an alumni magazine. A lot of other colleges subscribed, and we subscribed to a lot of other colleges' magazines too just out of, I guess, professional interest. But no, it was mostly alumni. I think the fundraising side kind of felt like we needed to appeal to the board, the alumni board, the trustee board, but I really felt like we needed to appeal much more broadly. And appealing to alumni is tough. There are kids brand-new out of school and people 100 years old, and the school has changed so much over the past 100 years that there's people who remember it as a girl's school and people remember the old campus and not the new campus. So it was a little hard to appeal to absolutely everybody, but we tried to have something for everybody in each episode. SB: Right. SR: Yeah. SB: So how would you go about pulling together an episode? SR: It was really fun. We knew we had to give a certain number of pages to Class Notes. So it was kind of like in the newspapers, you'd know how much advertising you have and then how much space you have left. We'd figure out how many pages we had to give to Class Notes, and we’d figure out how many pages we had left, and we had certain departments, we had campus news, and we had a couple of alumni profiles usually each time. So we kind of figured out what was the campus news we would do, and then we tried to have some really fun feature. It was photos or whatever. We often did a feature, which I really enjoyed, of just getting a bunch of alumni who were experts in some field. We did one on water, we did one on some other environmental, I think we did one on land use. Just interesting issues. We did one on the Middle East, I think. And we just get a bunch of alumni all around the country who are academics, or in the government, or doing some local... We had somebody who was like the sewage overseer for LA. That's a pretty interesting, pretty interesting job. So we managed to get them maybe on the phone or I just get them on an email group and we just throw out questions and have kind of a Q&A among five or six people and have an argument, and then I could edit that all down and make kind of a discussion group out of it. So I really liked some of those. Sometimes we would make a feature out of something on campus if it was some really big event or maybe like the 25th anniversary of going co-ed, something like that. You could interview people from the past and currently. So we just kind of kicked it around. I had my office mostly for the longest time in Palamountain, right out in the middle where everybody crossed between classes, and so people would just stop by and go, "Oh, I have this kid who's doing this really great research." Or I'd stick my head out and go like, "What's happening lately?" And so I would just get some of the coolest tips for what Page 5 of 16 �kind of projects were being done or just check in with people about starting a new class and what that was like. So I just really felt like I had my finger on the pulse, kind of, what was going on everywhere, especially academically. It got worse when we moved into other corners and we're out of the academic world. I don't know how you could do a magazine that way, but I guess they're doing it. But I felt really, in the midst of things, we had for a while an editorial board kind of that we would call for each issue, and it included somebody from several departments, somebody from alumni, somebody from the sciences, somebody from the humanities, and just ask them what the stories were. So we had plenty. The main problem always was what we couldn't cover. We just didn't have space to cover all the great stories. It's a nice problem to have. SB: You've described in a very lively way several of the stories. Any others jump out at you, stories that you did that were particularly sort of engaging or successful or even strange? SR: Right, right. Well, we've done a few that worried the suits. There was one, we did a little interview of a woman who was a truck driver, and I remember Kent thinking, "That doesn't say much for a Skidmore education." But she was great. She'd listen to books on tape in her truck. She was great. There was nothing wrong with her. SB: That's wonderful. SR: A couple others. We did one who was a professional wrestler. Also raised some eyebrows. But again, he understood the performance aspect of it. He wasn't going to do it forever. He was a young guy. He thought it was a blast. It was all about improv, and he understood that. He was going to go on to something else. So we tried to find some of those oddball stories. We always used to joke, and so did, I think, people, editors at other colleges about Skiddies in jail or something like that, but we never did that. I think we probably had a couple maybe who were in jail, but we steered away from that. But yeah, we just did local people, people from far away. We just covered everything we possibly could. Because for the Class Notes, each class year has sort of a class secretary, and each time before the magazine, they would send out a little blurb saying, "What's your news? Do you have a new grandkid? Did you travel?" just to solicit Class Notes, and we would get so many good ideas from that. Just somebody would say, "Oh, I got a new job," and you're like, "Whoa, that's an interesting job. Let's go interview that person." So again, way too many to possibly cover. So we just had to try to choose what we thought were best or which ones were available. SB: Yeah. Page 6 of 16 �SR: Yep. SB: That's wonderful. What about on-campus stories, stories of campus events that... Do you have any recollections of some biggies that you covered? SR: Yes. Yes, I do. Some were not such good stories. We did one because there was a big... You may have to edit this. We did one, there was a big issue about sexual assault. I can't remember if it was one particular case, but at some point it seemed like we needed to do a story, and it was on every other campus too. So I interviewed a bunch of people and sat in on a hearing thing about some case, interviewed the security guys and the student affairs people. And I thought I wrote a really good intro, and it got so squashed. So that's the issue with magazines at colleges, is the VPs or the president want something covered, they don't really want it covered, because to cover it is too scary. So yeah, there've been a couple of cases like that where something somewhat untoward happens, the alumni hear about it, you think, "Okay, we need to make a statement about the magazine is the organ of the college." So of course it's going to make sort of an official statement, but even that is too scary. It's too scary for the suits. Yep. So navigating that is really tough. It's really hard. Yeah, yeah. And in the end, when they see it on paper, they're like, "No, no, no. You have to completely sanitize this," and then it's nothing you want to print. It does not serve the institution well to come across as a brochure, because then you're going to lose your credibility. So that was always the issue, is like, do you want to be credible and admit anything true, or do you want to just whitewash and no one will ever believe you again? But I think emotion grabs these people, or we can just see them just clutch up and go, "Oh my God, I can't say that," or, "The magazine can't say that." And the fact is, yes, it could, but they can't stand it. They just can't stand it. They're under so much pressure. It's really tough, it's really tough. So I feel for them, but it was impossible in some cases to do a magazine story that would work for everybody. SB: What about on the other end of the spectrum, a celebratory moment that everybody loved? SR: Yes. Right, yeah. We can do that. Yep. Again, you have to be careful with that though. You don't want to just say, "Skidmore's the greatest thing that ever happened in the world," because it's not, and everybody knows that. So it's hard to do the celebratory ones. We always did a big celebration at the end of a campaign or something like that. So unless you have something else of genuine kind of interest, like when we opened Zankel Music Center, that was a big celebration, and yet it was so gear-heady and nerdy because of the way they had built it, with the acoustics and the engineering of it, was actually so interesting for a certain group of people that we got our nerdiest writer to go cover it. And he had a great time doing it, and he didn't want to do most stories, but it was all about how the parts of the building were kind of separate so that one Page 7 of 16 �wouldn't vibrate against the other, and it was amazing, some of the stuff they had done and how they do the acoustics and how they do the soundboard. It was really interesting. So he wrote a really cool piece that involved a lot of celebration and how fabulous the place was, but also, look what's behind it. Really interesting stuff. So it may not have appealed to a lot of people, but it certainly appealed to some nerds out there and some of the younger folks who liked the technology. So that, I think, we successfully pulled it off. And we could say, "This is a great building," and say, "and here's why. We really mean it. Here's the interesting parts about it." SB: Well, in your retirement citation, you were credited for developing a voice for Scope. How would you describe the voice that you created? Because it sounds like it's a tricky thing to do that. SR: It is a tricky thing, and again, it's something that the suits often are a little afraid of because they want it to be sort of no voice because they don't want to turn anybody off, and of course, that's impossible. So, I guess it was kind of my voice, but I did it by having some of those photographic features that were kind of fun and a little sort of witty and not just, "Gee, these are the greatest people ever, and look at these wonderful students, and all the professors are fabulous." It was the personal side of them and the fact that some of them were a little quirky. They weren't all absolutely perfect, but they were humans. And I think I did it maybe with the little editorial, the little kind of editor's note that I did up front. It was sometimes just about me, and it was about things like going to the biology department, where they have the bird specimens and watching a kid who was learning to stuff the specimen. You gut the damn thing and stuff it with cotton wool. Yeah, it's a little disgusting, but really interesting, and that's what everybody does at every biology department, to have these specimens. So things like that. A little bit about my take on people like Jonathan Kingdon and... Who was the other one? Jonathan Miller, who came by for the Creative Genius Program, whatever that was. It was some great money that brought those kind of genius people to campus. SB: I think it was the Luce grant that did that for us. SR: Yeah. There were kind of arts and science mixes. SB: Exactly. Page 8 of 16 �SR: Yeah. So I think we put ourselves into the magazine a little bit. We did one where Paul Arciero in exercise science was doing a program about withdrawing from nicotine for smokers and one of our... Or no, it was caffeine, withdrawing from caffeine, and one of our writers, Barbara Melville, was a big coffeeholic, so she decided to try it and see what it would be like. So she went into his program, and then she wrote a first-person account of how horrible it was to quit caffeine suddenly, and how the students measured all your reactions and took blood. And so it was really interesting, and it sort of showed you this research going on and the students getting access to the research, but it was from a sort of personal point of view, like you could imagine yourself being part of that research, and probably 50% of the alumni out there went, "Oh, yeah, I went off caffeine once and it was horrible." So they could relate to it. SB: Yeah. And it sounds to me that, listening to your description, that the voice that you're after is sort of, "This is Skidmore in all of its variations," and allow people then to connect back to the college through these various lenses. SR: Yeah, right, right. So everything we wrote was not for everybody, but it was hopefully for a good number of them. And you figure you have like a house party, and there's people in this room talking about something, and then there's people in this room who are slamming beers, and then there's people in this room doing something else, and you can go from room to room. So you can turn the page and go, "I don't want to read about the science research, but here's something about the arts. I want to read about that." So we felt that in every magazine, we should kind of hit more or less all those interests at least once. SB: Well, given that the range of topics that you've described, it sounds to me that you may have been in a unique position, even at Skidmore, to really have your finger on the pulse of all of the things that go on on a campus, on a liberal arts campus. SR: I really felt that I did, yeah. I felt that I sort of knew Skidmore as well as almost anybody did. Yeah. And after 20 years, I had some historical institutional knowledge too. But yeah, I had met faculty in every department, staff in every department. Yeah, yeah. SB: So that leads directly into my next question, which is, you, in that 20-plus year time period, must have experienced a fair amount of change across campus. How would you describe the changes in Skidmore in the time that you're here? SR: I mean, this is where it gets tough. Right now, I don't think it has changed for the better necessarily. I think the kids are doing fine. I think academically it's fine. I don't know that there's any particular issues. There may be. But administratively, I think it got a lot more vice presidents, it got a lot more corporate, it got a lot more hierarchical, a lot less academic, a lot less Page 9 of 16 �collegial. And so it got much tougher to feel a part of the group. Part of it is that maybe it just got bigger, that might be part of it. But I think all of academe has had this, I've heard this from other editors as well, that just suddenly there's a vice president here and a vice president there and deputy vice president, and pretty soon you just have this huge amount of administration. They're like, "What happened to the faculty and the students?" And they kind of get a little bit lost by comparison. So I didn't care for that, because I grew up also in academe in the day, in my dad's day, when it wasn't about the administration. Faculty really did have some control, and faculty governance really was what it was about. So I missed that. And my job particularly just got really hard, it just got really impossible, which is partly why I was so ready to go. I might've stayed longer if things had not gone the way they did, but it was just a matter of bosses changing. As everyone says, the boss is what makes your job. It makes or breaks your job. So yeah, if you don't get along with your boss, you're done. SB: Yeah. So those early years, starting in the Porter presidency, how would you describe those then? SR: Those were great. I loved my job. I absolutely loved my job. I loved my job more than any other job I'd had. I liked Saratoga. So I liked everything about my job. The collegiality in my office was fabulous. I think we were like the model office for a long time, because we really respected each other, we all contributed to each other's jobs, but we never stepped on anybody's toes. So Mary Parliman, the designer, would say, "Can you step over here? And what do you think of that?" And I could say what I think of it, I'm not a designer, and then it was her decision. If I hated it, I could say I hated it and she could still go ahead with it because she was the designer. Or I could call somebody else in and say, "What about this word or this phrase?" and they'd go, "Oh, I'd do something else," and I could say, "Thank you, but no. I'm going to do what I want to do because it's my job." And everybody respected that. Bob Kimmerle was just the best of bosses. He would argue sometimes like, "Do you want to do this story or do you want to write this this way?" and we would just have an argument about it, and whoever won the argument won. I was always thinking I would accede to my boss if I possibly could, but if he didn't make the case for it, then I didn't accede to him, and he'd be like, "Okay, you're the editor. I hired you to do this." So we would have a really collegial argument. I really appreciated that. It was just very professional and also personally warm. At one point, I had been talking to folks about getting a dog. I'd had cats before and I wanted a dog now. I had bought a house, so I was going to have a dog. And one of my colleagues, Barbara Melville, went with me to pick up the puppy. And so everybody had kind of heard a little bit about me having this dog. And a secretary came down and said, "Oh, Bob needs to see you in his office." So I run upstairs to Bob's office, and there's a puppy shower that they have thrown for me. It was so cute, with little puppy toys and puppy accessories. It was crazy. I had no idea they were going to do something like that. Page 10 of 16 �So this was just, we used to go out together to student theater or student concerts or something. We'd make a little date and go out together. We still are the best friends, all of us. We get together every few weeks, every few months. Every one of us just, they were the ones who turned out when I got my cancer diagnosis. They're like, "What can we do?" They drove me to New York City, they drove me back, they got groceries for me. I mean, these guys were just the greatest. So we just really had that esprit de corps that you don't often get in an office. We had no toxic people in our office. We were very lucky for many years, and we all appreciated that. We all knew it. And I think the college kind of recognized that, that we were a very functional office. You could call us up and say, "We need a brochure," And we would crank that puppy out and it would be a good brochure, or, "We need a story about this in the magazine," and we'd figure out a way to do it, and it got done. So we were pretty pleased with that. Yeah, we thought we were doing pretty well. SB: Do you think that same positive energy permeated the campus in general in those years? SR: It did. I think it mostly did. I know there were some griping and problems and troubles in some offices and some departments. But yeah, in general, I think it did. I think that radiated from David as much as anything. He's such a performer, such a punster, you know? SB: David Porter, right? SR: Yeah, David Porter. It just it was hard not to be charmed by David. So that was kind of his role, I think. And he was just so academically strong too that you had to admire him and you had to be charmed by him. And I do think, from what I gather, he kind of let people do their jobs for the most part. And everybody wanted to work for him and work for his people. I think it was, at least in the administrative side, yeah, yeah, pretty good. There's tougher offices. The fundraising office is tough. You got to look at numbers at the end of each year and did you meet that number? Whereas what we look at is a physical magazine or a brochure and go, "Isn't that pretty?" Much easier to sort of see the result, you know? You never get a magazine and go, "Oh, that just really sucks." But if you're in fundraising, you're like, "Oh, damn, that sucks. We missed our number." The pressure must be terrible there. So we didn't feel quite as much pressure, although it was deadline, deadline, deadline, deadline, deadline. But in the end, you got something nice out of it, and most people would say, "Oh, that's great. Thanks." SB: That's wonderful. So looking back on your years at Skidmore, what are the major events, initiatives in which you take pride? Page 11 of 16 �SR: Well, mostly they're just the silly side stuff, you know? I really enjoyed being on the Campus Environment Committee. I chaired that for about maybe five years or so. And that was a really, again, kind of a collegial effort. Sue Van Hook from Biology was involved in that a lot too in those days. And we had maybe a student rep or two and a couple other reps and somebody from facilities, that was really good. We did some good stuff. We put up some signs in the north part of the North Woods, behind the Skidmore stables. We kind of liaised a little bit with the bike riders who used that area. We put on a little campus forum, which a fair number of people came to, 100 or so, just to talk about campus environment in general and what were the priorities. So that, I think, was really fun. Frustrating in a way because we had no power at all. All we could do was advise. But I enjoyed that a lot. Again, it got me sort of in touch with folks I wouldn't be in touch with otherwise, like the facilities guys. So that was interesting. I did a lot of reunions. I avoided commencement for the most part because commencement is not my thing, but one of our writers loved to go to commencement, thank God. Because after a while you've done like 20 reunions. You're like, "What can we do now?" But I got into video, which I really enjoyed. So I made a bunch of videos that once we had the news on the website so much, I made a video. I got a GoPro and made a video underwater of a student swimmer. That was really fun. I made a video about summer research involving frog eggs and microscopes and stuff. That was really cool. So I figured out how to get the microscope into the video and followed the kids as they did their work. So I liked all that. What else did I do? Oh, probably the funnest thing I ever did was just one night, which was the employee talent show that the kids put on. I don't know who did it. It was for charity. I don't remember what group of kids it was. But they really organized it well, and they put out a call for the employee talent show, and it was held at the dance theater, and at the time I had a second dog, standard poodle named Dinah, who everybody knew because she came to campus and she was this like the nicest dog. And I had done, along with trick training, doggy dancing with her, which is so embarrassing, but so much fun. So I said, "Well, Dinah and I will come and dance," and they said, "Oh, great." So they had probably 8 or 10 acts. They had like Bernie Possidente from Biology doing banjo. They had somebody who was sort of a singer-songwriter in her spare time who did some stuff. They had Mariel Martin, the diversity person, whose talent was she could tie a cherry stem with her tongue. So she gets up on stage, she's got a bowl of cherries, and there's a monitor with her to assure that it's actually tied, because she's so far away from the audience. So this monitor is watching that she ties and then holds up the tied cherry stem to great applause. It was hilarious. And then Dinah was the last act, and we did a dance to, “There she was just walking down the street, singing do wah diddy diddy dum diddy do”. And she could walk backwards, and she could go between my legs, and she could spin backwards. The crowd went nuts. So that was hilarious, I got to say. And again, the crowd was faculty, staff, students, local folks. I had somebody, a friend of mine came from western Mass. just to see it. It was just such a great group, and the vibe was so good. That's a Skidmore-y thing to do, you know? Page 12 of 16 �SB: Do you remember approximately what year that might have been? Like late '90s, something like that? SR: It might've been, yeah, early 2000s. I could look it up because I think I have a video from it, and the video is probably dated. Oh, yeah, the video is hilarious. And the great thing about Dinah dancing was that it was Dinah and the Dinettes, because I didn't want to just be on the stage alone, so I recruited Kate Greenspan from English and Wendy Anthony from the archives in the library, both dog people, and they got all duded up like, I don't know, like the Ronettes or something, I guess. They had red lipstick, and Dinah wore a little red collar, and I was all in black, so I was kind of the puppeteer and not really seen, but I had a red tie to match Dinah. And so they come dancing in in their little skirts. And so they were doing all the little doo-wop dances behind me and Dinah. It was to die for, I got to say. So again, this mix of people, I don't think Kate and Wendy really knew each other that much, but we did like three rehearsals in the lobby of Palamountain or something and then we went on. They drank like a bottle of wine between them in the green room. So it was a good show. SB: Oh, that's a wonderful anecdote. SR: It was good. Yeah, it was really good. SB: So we probably have covered the question of some of the greatest challenges that you've experienced. That is one of our standard questions. Anything else you want to say? I think we've... SR: I mean, yeah, the challenges are just sort of personal - people who are crappy bosses. SB: Okay. SR: So, yeah. Don't necessarily want to go there. SB: Enough said. SR: Yeah, exactly. Page 13 of 16 �No, I think switching to the magazine was hard. It was a big deal. But we had a great designer, a freelance designer that we worked with for years. It all came together really nicely. Yeah, we had a good run. SB: Well, and it's still a successful publication. It's a wonderful publication. SR: Good, okay. I haven't seen that in ages. SB: Great legacy. SR: Okay. SB: So what have you been doing since retirement? SR: Retirement is the best. As much as I loved my job, retirement's even better. I thought I would do some freelancing, and I told folks at my office that I would do some freelancing. They called me up and I said, "Nope, don't want to." So much to my surprise, I just didn't want to. So the main thing I've been doing is training a donkey. I was always into horses, but my back is bad, so I haven't ridden or done horses for a long time. But I've stayed in touch with people, and Barbara Melville, the writer that I worked with, has a couple of horses at a nearby barn. So I was there a little bit visiting, and the manager of that barn has a couple of horses of her own and also got a donkey, because what they do there is clicker training, which is the all-positive way of training, and you can train a flatfish, you can train a human, you can train a cat, a dog, anything, because you click when they do the right thing, you give them a treat. So the click says that instant is when you did the right thing, and then quickly here's a treat, and you do nothing else pretty much. So you don't say, "No, that was wrong. Stop doing that." You just wait until they do the right thing, you click, and pretty soon, any animal, including humans, will learn, "I need to do more of this. I'll get the treats." So this donkey, she [Barbara] had trained to walk nicely, and she just thought it'd be fun to clicker train another species. But then she adopted a few race horses and got involved rehabbing them, and the donkey was getting bored. So the donkey, being a donkey, was breaking out of his stall, breaking out of the paddock. He'd run up and down the aisles of the barn and eat everybody's treats. He was just being a problem. So I thought, "Why don't I try? I've trained horses a little bit, I've trained dogs a lot. I'd love to train a donkey. I love donkeys." So I asked her if I could come and teach him some tricks, and she said, "Sure." And she said, "But first of all, don't get hurt." And I thought, "Oh, God, what am I doing?" Page 14 of 16 �But I started teaching him tricks, and he loved it, and we've been doing it three times a week ever since for like five years now. So he can do many fine tricks. He can stand on a pedestal and pirouette around it. He can push a baby carriage across the arena, and then he takes out of the baby carriage a toy donkey and walks up to the pedestal and waves the donkey up and down. He bops a great big beach ball all over the place. He can play all kinds of music. He can play the keyboard with his nose. Very horrible-sounding, but he loves it. He loves when he can discover that he makes a noise. He likes to knock things over and watch them fall, and he likes to make a noise. So he can play the keyboard, and then I taught him to play the high-hat cymbals by pressing on the pedal with his hoof. I actually went out to a garage sale and spent a hundred dollars on a drum set. And so he plays the high-hat cymbals, which he really likes because they go crash. At first, he was afraid of them, but with clicker training, you train them not to be afraid and gradually. So now he slams his foot on the cymbals, and he plays the bicycle horn, which he just bites the bulb of it. So he has quite the bandstand now all set up with music. So he's just great. I'm just constantly trying to think of new things to teach him. So now I'm teaching him colors. He can tell two colors apart. It's amazing what they can do. So that's been really fun, just being part of that barn and having not only Barbara Melville there with her horse and doing the training, but also Mary Parliman, the designer, who's still a friend. Both of us have come, and she's playing with horses, which she never used to do. So it kind of just continues. The office is not really broken up yet even though we're all retired. SB: That's a lovely story. It makes me think that we should consider having a retiree talent show. SR: There you go. That would be a hoot. Oh my God, that would be a hoot. Yeah. Some retirees are doing some really cool stuff. SB: So is there anything else we should talk about in terms of your years with us? SR: What else? I mean, I was there for so long. I think I've covered a lot of it. I mean, I would say I had so much interaction with so many different people, like we also had editorial boards that we put together with alumni like once or twice a year. And we had some alums in journalism and alums in other fields. We had one of the former editors of the Skidmore News when it was really, really good, Yenso Lin, who's now an international lawyer, I think. So we just had so many kind of fun, and collegial, and deeply professional, and also really fun interactions. It was great. One thing I didn't want to have to do as Campus Environment Committee chair was break up a student camp in the woods. That was kind of too bad, but it was sort of famous, Camp Nasty. It probably was pretty nasty. But it was because there was a kid named Nat who kind of started it, Page 15 of 16 �and they used to call him Nat Nasty or something, I guess. But yeah, we had to go and tell them like they really couldn't live in the North Woods for many reasons. But no, it was good. I think I covered everything. I mean, Skidmore helped, not just when I got sick, but they sent me to CASE conferences, which were really useful because there was not just the schmoozing of most CASE conferences. The editors of magazines had their own editors forum, and it was seminars and really picking the minds of other editors of other good magazines, and they were the ones who ran the magazine contests. And so those were really good. Went to several of those. Yeah, Skidmore let me take a video-making course in the summer along with students so that I could make the videos, let me buy a video camera for the office. So yeah, yeah, a lot of fun stuff. The fun just kept happening. SB: Wonderful. Well, this has been absolutely delightful. SR: Okay. Well, good. Me too. SB: Thanks much for being with us. SR: Of course, of course. Thank you. Page 16 of 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Susan Bender Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sue Rosenberg Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 49:27 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit March 23, 2026 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sue Rosenberg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 11, 2025 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Sue Rosenberg joined Skidmore’s Office of Communications & Marketing as a writer/editor in 1992, after having worked in publications at Kenyon College and SUNY Binghamton. Her major responsibility was to shape the publication of Scope, Skidmore’s alumni periodical, first as a six-times-a-year tabloid then a quarterly periodical. Rosenberg is credited with having developed a distinctive voice for Scope and, under her direction, the publication has earned national recognition.  Rosenberg’s enthusiasm for her work and enjoyment of collaborations with her colleagues shine through her tales of scouring the campus for interesting, engaging, and sometimes quirky stories for Scope.  She also describes some of her other contributions to the campus community, including chairing the Campus Environment Committee and starring in an employee talent show with her dog, Dinah. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Advancement Alumni Class Notes alumni interviews Bob Kimmerle Campus Environment Committee campus news features dogs on campus Kent Jones Public Relations Scope https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a90cdf911c898a807f1fd7dc1ecb4796.jpeg 9b4c193c5896a1cdb32a209aa363254b https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b0d43b5b6363539c537325330ebc6dce.jpeg 69fc13aae0e5fc82e33c1204c1c7765c https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/ca5b381108ea9b28101cb89d8d3160ff.m4a ba88612f8fd8d0bf1cca1bdf0cbdb0e1 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6f662762fd131eea6fd87629d833d9e5.pdf d01ba86005b38220c567eb49f1acbb85 PDF Text Text February  11th,  2018   Chris  Cocchi  (interviewer)   Dave  Paterson  (interviewee)   Skidmore  College,  Scribner  Library     Christopher  Cocchi:  Ok,  testing  1,2,3.  I  think  its  working.  Ok!  So  uh,  first  thing  is  that,  uh  do  you,   just  to  go  over  uh,  verbal  consent,  uh  do  you  agree  to  what  you  signed  before  about,  you  know,   hav-­‐  lending  your  voice  to  the  uh,  Saratoga  or  Skidmore  Memory  Project  [Skidmore  Saratoga   Memory  Project  (SSMP)]  and  uh,  you  know,  letting  it  be  used  online  and  whatnot?     Dave  Paterson:  I  do.     CC:  Cool,  thank  you.  Anyway,  first  things  first  I  just  have  to  record  just  the  empty  the  noise  here   so  that  they  can  edit  it  out  so  I'm  just  gonna  be  silent  for  about  a  few  seconds  here     [Pause]     CC:  Ok,  so  for  the  record,  my  name  is  Christopher  Cocchi,  I'm  here  with  Dave  Paterson,  in  the   Skidmore  Library  in  the  Media  Viewing  room,  and  I'm  interviewing  him  for  the  Public  History  in   Skidmore  with  Professor  [Jordana]  Dym.  So  uh,  I  guess,  to  begin,  uh,  what's  uh,  just  tell  me   about  yourself,  like  uh,  when  were  you  born  or  like  where  did  you  live  growing  up?     DP:  Ok,  I  was  born  in  south  Boston-­‐   CC:  Um  hm.   DP:-­‐in  1954.   CC:  Um  hm.   DP  :  And,  uh,  I've  been  in  Saratoga  [Springs]  for  the  last  47  years.  I've  taught  for  over  30  years  at   the  [Saratoga  Springs]  high  school  here,  [as  the]  Social  Studies  department  head,  and   overlapping  15  years  at  The  University  at  Albany.  Uh,  in  the  midst  of  all  that  teaching  of  I  was   also  President  of  the  Saratoga  Springs  History  Museum,  and  for  19  years  a  friend  of  mine  and  I   have  run  a  company  called  Saratoga  Tours,  where  we  give  historic  tours  of  Saratoga  Springs.     CC:  Ok  cool.  So  uh,  what  got  you  interested  in  history  in  the  first  place?     DP:  Probably  my  8th  grade  history  teacher,  uh,  Mr.Curren  [SP?],  and  uh,  he's  the  first  one  who   made  who  made  it  more  about  how  and  why  instead  of,  memorizing    who,  what,  when,  and   where  and  dates  and  all  those,  and  uh,  I  always  liked  to  read.  And  once  I  started  reading   history,  then  I  wanted  to  read  more,  it's  like,  now  I'm  writing  for  Saratoga  Living  Magazine,  I   think  the  new,  the  new  relaunch  of  the  magazine  just  came  out  a  couple  days  ago,  and  I  have   an  article  in  there  that  I  wrote  for  them  about  the  blizzard  of  1888  when  we  got  57  inches  of   snow.  But  while  I  was  researching  that,  and  reading  up  on  that,  then  I  found  a  bunch  more   questions  I  wanted  answers  to  so  then  I  go  off  on-­‐  and  that's  the  great  thing  about  history,   you're  never  done.     �CC:  Um  hm.  That's  very  cool.  Now  uh,  where  did  you  go  after  your,  uh,  experience  in  public   school,  like  which  university  did  you  [DP  starts  speaking]  go  to  from  there?     DP:  Oh,  uh  college-­‐wise  I  was  at  the,  first  was  at  the  University  of  Miami.   CC:  Um  hm.   DP:  Uh,  I  was  playing  Baseball  also  at  the  time  so  I  left  Miami,  um  I  ended  up  getting  degrees   from  Boston  College,  uh,  University  at  Albany,  and  [  The  College  of]  Saint  Rose.     CC:  Ok  cool.  And  what  was  your  first  experience  out  of  college?     DP:  [Deep  breath]  [You]  mean  work  wise?   CC:  Yeah.   DP:  I  taught  for  half  a  year  in  Rutland,  Vermont.  I  was  the  fourth  teacher  they  had  hired,   because  the  7th  and  8th  graders  were  driving  all  the  substitute  people  crazy,  and  I  remember  I   started  in  February,  oh  I  think  1980,  and  I  get  through  the  rest  of  the  school  year  with  them,   and  a  matter  of  fact,  on  like  the  second  the  second  to  last  week  of  school,  the  assistant   superintendent  asked  me  if  I  was  available  to  come  back  an-­‐  oh-­‐  then  next  year  and  I  said  I  was.   And  he  said  they  were  going  to  give  me  like  a  "The  8th  grade  teacher  of  the  year  award"  and  I   said  oh  this  is  great,  and  then  the  next  week  I  got  laid  off!   CC:  Oh!   DP:  [Laughs]  So  I  was  going  to  go  back  to  Boston  and  open  up  a  sporting  goods  store,  and  uh,   on  my  way  down  through,  I  had  interviewed  at  Saratoga  High  School  before,  but  they  already   had  a  position  filled,  on  my  way  down-­‐  I  was  packing  up  my  car  literally,  on  the  day  I  was  going   to  go  to  Boston,  when  Saratoga  called  and  said  "we  have  an  opening,  do  you  want  to  come  up   and  interview?"  [Unsure  mumble]  I  said  ok,  I  will.  So  I  went  up,  they  hired  me,  and  I've  been   there  for  the  last  40  years.     CC:  Uh,  so,  what  was  your-­‐  what  was-­‐  wh-­‐  what  was  your  teaching  at  Saratoga  High  [School]?     DP:  Uh,  really  good.  Uh,  Saratoga  [Springs]'s  a  really  good  school  district.  Uh,  I  taught   everything  you  can  teach  in  the  Social  Studies  from  grades  7  to  12.  Every  level  of  student,  from   the  weakest  kids  we  had,  a  lot  of  kids  with  special  needs,  up  to  the  Advanced  Placement   courses,  uh  I  think  I  was  only  the  2nd  Advance  Placement  U.S.  History  teacher  in  the  county   when  we  started  that  program.  Um,  I  also  taught  in  summer  school  I  taught  phys.  ed.  [Physical   Education],  I  taught  English,  Social  Studies,  so,  but,  you  know,  all  in  all  a  terrific  experience.   Great  kids.     CC:  So,  how-­‐  did  anything  change  over  the  years  that  you  were  teaching  History  at  Saratoga   High  School?     DP:  [Deep  breath]  Well,  [pause]  that's  one  of  the  great  things  about  history,  things  do  change  as   time  goes  on,  um  the  first  kids  I  taught  in  the  1980's,  I  don't  know  if  you'll  remember  Chris  but   there  used  to  be  a  show  on  TV,  a  TV  show  in  the  80's  called  "Family  Ties".   CC:  Um  hmm.   �DP:  And  most  of  the  kids  in  the  80's  were  a  lot  like  that  Alex  P.  Keaton  character.  You  know,   they  were  the  Michael  Fox  character,  um,  very  preppy  kind  of  thing,  and  we  went  through  ph-­‐ phase  for  a  while,  but  then  we  get  into  a  phase  where  uh,  everybody  was  getting  piercings   everywhere,  and  then  we  got  into  a  phase  where  the  clothes  got  kinda  wild,  and  then  it  went   back  to  more  conservative  dress.  So  it's  kinda  been  all  over  the  place,  and  uh,  its  interesting   because  towards  the  end  of  my  career  I  noticed  I  was  teaching  a  lot  of  the  sons  and  daughters   of  kids  I  taught  30  years  before.     CC:  Did  uh  the  material  you  taught  change  at  all  or  was  it  pretty  consistent?     DP:  Well  the  tough  thing  with  History  is-­‐  and  Math  teachers  don't  understand  this-­‐  um,  there's   a  finite  amount  of  information  to  teach  in  the  AP  [Advanced  Placement]  or  Regents   [Examinations]  Math  or  Science  courses,  so  they  can  usually  schedule  their  courses  to  end,  let's   say,  mid-­‐May,  or  early  May,  which  will  give  them  to  review  for  either  the  AP  exam  or  the   Regents.  Well,  History  just  gets  added  onto  every  year.  So,  for  example  when  we  get  to  2001,   you  can't  leave  out  9/11,  that's  too  important  [of]  a  piece  of  history.  So  as  you  add  things  in,   you  have  to  edit  other  things  that  you've  been  teaching  over  time.  So,  you  figure,  when  I   started,  was  the  first  year  Reagan,  Ro-­‐Ro  Ronald  Reagan  was  president,  um  when  I  ended   [Barack]  Obama  was  president.  Well,  a  lot  changed,  and  then  you  gotta  teach  all  that.  So,  the   amount  I  had  to  teach  changed,  and  I  think  my  methods  of  teaching  changed.     CC:  Could  you  go  into  that,  like  wh-­‐wh-­‐  how  did  your  methods  change?     DP:  Well,  [Cough]  education  isn't  a  once  size  fit  all,  I  don't  think,  although  I-­‐it  does  make  me   laugh  because  [the]  New  York  Department  of  Education  continually  talks  about  differentiated   instruction,  which  is  the  idea  that  every  student  should  be  treated  differently  and  taught   according  to,  you  know,  what  they  can  do.  And  I  agree  with  that  philosophically,  [Cough]  yet   they  want  every  kid  to  sit  down  for  same  Regents  exam,  whether  you  live  in  Long  Island,  or   Brooklyn,  or  Saratoga  Springs.  And  to  me  that  is  a  little  ridiculous.  I  never  had  a  student  fail  a   state  test,  but  I  think  the  reason  for  that  is,  because  even  with  lowest  level  kids  I  taught,  I   always  treated  Social  Studies,  and  I  think  it's  true  of  any  subject  [test],  as  a  vocabulary  test.  As   long  the  kids  understand  what  the  questions  are  at  the  end  of  the  year,  they  can  answer  them.   What  happens  is  a  lot  of  teachers  think  they're  being  a  good  teacher,  what  they'll  do  something   like  this,  they'll  say,  I'll  be  teaching  a  class  and  I'll  say  "Ok,  so  were  when  the  immigrants  were   coming  into  New  York  City,  and  they  were  being  processed,  and  they  were  slowly  getting   accepted  and  they  got  jobs  in  factories,  and  they  started  to  learn  the  English  language,  and   customs  in  America,  that's  called  Assimilation."  Well  some  teachers,  thinking  they're  just  trying   to  help  the  kids,  will  just  refer  to  it  as  "fitting  in",  'cus  the  kids  will  understand  it  better.  The   problem  is  when  they  get  to  the  Regents  exam,  the  Regents  uses  the  word  "assimilation",  and  if   a  student  doesn't  associate  the  word  assimilation  with  the  immigrant  experience,  they're  not   going  to  get  the  question  right.  So  I  learned  early  on  that  vocabulary  was  an  important  part.   Also  early  on  when  I  was  teaching  it  was  a  lot  more  chalk  talk  lecturing,  as  then  as  time  when   the  technology  get  so  good  with  the  Smartboards  and  things,  I  could  work  in,  instead  of  telling   �kids  about  Martin  Luther  Kings'  [Jr.]  "I  Have  a  Dream"  speech,  I  can  play  them  a  quick  5  minute   excerpt,  I  can  show  them  an  inauguration,  um,  so  that  was  good.     CC:  Ok,  uh  do  you  have  any  like,  uh  stories  from  any  particular  incidences  [incidents]  from  your   time  in  the  [Saratoga]  high  school?     DP:  [Laughs]  Stories  relative  to  what?     CC:  I  guess  like  for  instance  like,  did  you  ever  have  like  a  student  that  like,  made  you  think  "Hey,   you  know,  this  might  be  an  interesting  way  to  teach  it  next  time."  Or  did  a  teacher  come  up  to   you  and  say  something  that  like,  made  think  of,  like...     DP:  Oh  several  times,  I  think  most  of  the  times  the  changes  I've  made  in  my  teaching  methods   over  the  years  came  from  a  feedback  I  got  from  students.  Um,  because  you  a  different  group  of   students  every  year,  and  they  come  at  things  from  a  different  perspective.  Uh,  one  of  my   favorite  students  ever  was  a  young  man  who  came  up  to  me  and  said,  he  was  very  nice,  he  was   thanking  me  for  the  course,  for  teaching  the  course,  for  teaching  the  course  and  everything,   and  then  he  said  "You  know  what  I  really  liked  a  lot  was  when  we  worked  in  groups."  And  I   hadn't  really  been  too  big  on  group  projects,  but  for  the  next  years  I  took  a  couple  of  the  units   and  I  made  them  group  projects  things,  and  all  of  them-­‐  well  not  all  of  them-­‐  most  of  the  kids   really  seem  to  like  it.  So  then  the  next  year  I  did  a  little  more  of  that,  and-­‐and  that  happened  a   few  times  in  my  career,  he's  now  a  very  successful  doctor  at  a  Mass.  General  Boston   [Massachusetts  General  Hospital  at  Boston].     CC:  Cool.  Uh,  so  what  was  like-­‐  wh-­‐what  was  life  like  living  in  Saratoga  [Springs]  at  the  time,  'cus   you  were  new  to  the  area,  correct?     DP:  Yeah  Saratoga  [Springs]  is  uh  [small  pause]  it's  an  interesting  city.  Uh  when  I  first  moved  up   here,  there  seemed  to  me  there  was  a  strong  feeling  like  Broadway  was  the  dividing  line  in  the   city.  And,  briefly  when  I  first  moved  here  I  lived  in  an  apartment  on  the  east  side  of  Broadway.   And,  but  for  most  of  the  time  I've  been  here  I  lived  in  a  house  on  the  west  side.  And  it  seemed   to  me  in  maybe  the  first  10  years  I  lived  here,  there  was  a  dividing  line  between  the  people  of   west  Saratoga  [Springs],  west  of  Broadway  and  east  of  Broadway,  and  so,  of  course  I  got  curious   and  I  started  doing  research  and  talking  to  people,  and  uh  the  [Saratoga]  High  School  used  to   be,  way  back  when,  over  where  uh,  uh  Lake  Ave.  [Avenue]  Elementary  School  is.  So  the  kids   from  [the]  West  side  of  Saratoga  [Springs]  had  a  longer  walk  than  the  kids  from  the  east  side  of   Saratoga  [Springs],  and  there  was  a  train  that  cut  the  path,  they  went  by  where  the  Price   Chopper  is,  Railroad  Place  [Aparements].  So,  the  kids  from  the  West  side  had  to  time-­‐  since   they  used  to  let  them  home  for  lunch-­‐  but  you  had  to  time  it  right  so  the  train  wasn't  holding   you  up.  Um,  and  o-­‐  and  then  the  trains  disappeared  and  all  that,  but  that  "feeling"  seemed  to   stay  with  a  lot  of  old-­‐timers.  So  that  was  interesting  to  me.  That's  now  changed,  I  don't  feel  that   now.  Saratoga  [Springs]  is  uh,  I  think-­‐  I  think  I  read  that  as  of  two  years  ago,  for  the  first  time,   there  are  now  more  people  living  in  Saratoga  [Springs]  who  weren't  born  here  than  were  born   here,  so  that's  a  big  change  in  that.  Um,  but  Saratoga  [Springs]  you  know,  you  look  at  its  over   �the  years,  it  reinvents  itself  all  the  time.  And  I  think  it's  done  that  when  the  [Saratoga]  City   Center  came  about  in  1984,  Saratoga  [Springs]  got  revitalized,  and  boy,  where  else  would  you   want  to  be  now?     CC:  Um  hm,  so,  how  do  you  think  the  people  of  Saratoga  [Springs]  changed  during  your  time   uh-­‐   DP:  The  time  I've  been  here?   CC:  Um  hm.   DP:  [Deep  breath,  pause]  Well,  I-­‐I  thought  it  was  noteworthy  that  a  couple  years  ago  Saratoga   [Springs]  get  [got]  named  the  "Friendliest  city  in  New  York",  'cus  I  think  the  people  are  very   friendly.  Um,  we're  also  very  also  very  much  Wonderbread,  in  the  sense  that  we're-­‐  like,  I  don't   know  what  we  are,  90%  Caucasian  or  something,  so  its  been  nice  to  see  an  influx  of  minorities   into  the  city  of  Saratoga  Springs,  and  uh-­‐  and  its  been  to  see  the  city  of  Saratoga  Springs  kind  of   incorporating  the  kids  or  the  students  from  Skidmore  more.  Uh,  there  was  a  time  there  were   the  community  town  and  gown  relationships  weren't  that  great.  But  I  think  the  college  has   made  an  effort  and  I  think  the  community  has  made  an  effort  to  try  and  get  closer,  and  I  think   that  helps  both  sides.     CC:  I  guess,  is  it  ok  if  you  give  an  example  of  when  times  weren't  good  between  the  community   and  the  college  and  maybe  a  more  recent  example  how  [DP  starts  speaking]  that  kinda  works   for  the  better?     DP:  Ok,  I  have  to  go  into  my  little  history  thing  here  for  you  to  do  that  Chris,  but  I  would  say   this,  there  was  a  time  not  too  long  ago,  I'm  going  to  say  the  1960s,  and  maybe  the  50s  and   maybe  even  the  70s-­‐  but  I  wasn't  here  so  I'm  not  sure,  when  every  year-­‐  'cus  in  those  days   Skidmore  was  uh-­‐  until  the  late  60s-­‐early  70s  Skidmore  was  downtown,  the  campus.  But   whenever  the  Skidmore  kids  came  to  start  a  new  school  year,  li-­‐  businesses  would  have  signs   like  "Welcome  Skidmore  Students"  and  badubub,  you  know,  and  the  whole  community  was  like   "Oh,  we're  happy  to  have  the  Skidmore  kids  back."  Well  when  I  came  here  in  1981  there  was   none  of  that.  As  a  matter  of  fact  there  was  even  some  "We  don't  want  those  Skidmore  kids   down  here,  where  you  got  to  keep  an  eye  on  them,"  and  blahblahblah.  But  now  I've  noticed  in   the  last  few  years  they're  back  to  the  Chamber  of  Commerce  is  talking  again  "Why  don't  we  put   those  signs  up  again?"  Uh,  so  that's  a  good  thing.     CC:  Ok  cool.  So,  I  know  you  mentioned  that  during  this  time  you  became  involved  with  the   [Saratoga  Springs]  History  Museum.     DP:  Yup.   CC:  How  did  that  happen?     DP:  I  think  I  got  involved  with  like  six  or  eight  groups  in  Saratoga  Springs,  but  I  became   president  of  the  [Saratoga  Springs]  History  Museum.  The  reason  was  I  was  down  there  alot,   researching  things-­‐  as  I  said  when  we  started,  as  I  get  questions  on  things  I  have  to  delve  more   into  them.  So  a  lot  of  questions  I  had,  I  always  think  the  best  way  to  teach  history  is-­‐if  I  can  get   the  kids  to  relate  to  it  from  things  that  happened  in  their  community,  then  they  can  kinda  see  it   �with  the  United  States  and  maybe  globally.  So  I  was  in  the  [Saratoga  Springs]  History  Museum   alot  doing  research,  and  at  one  point,  um,  the  director  at  the  time,  asked  me  if  I  would  be   willing  to  join  the  board.  So,  I  did,  I  joined  the  board  at  the  [Saratoga  Springs]  History  Museum,   and  I  learned  alot  from  those  people.  Many  of  them  were  old-­‐timers,  uh,  who  had  been  here   forever.  And  I  just  listened  to  them  tell  their  stories.  Fascinating.  So,  then  that  director  left,  and   I  was  one  of  the  people  in  charge  of  finding  the  new  director.  So  the  person  we  ended  up  hiring   was  Jamie  Parillo  [James  D.  Parillo],  he's  still  the  director  there  now,  young  guy,  he  had  worked   at  Saratoga  National  Battlefield  [Saratoga  Battlefield,  part  of  the  Saratoga  National  Historical   Park].  Um,  once  Jamie  came  on  board  he  brought  kind  of  a  youthful  exuberance  to  it.  As  a   matter  of  fact  we  started  a  program  where-­‐  'cus  I  said,  "We  gotta  reach  out  kids  more."  So  we   started  something  that  hadn't  been  done  before,  it  was  a  Junior  Membership,  so  that  any  kid   who  wanted  to  be  a  member  of  the  [Saratoga  Springs]  History  Museum,  basically  got  a  free   membership.  So  they  got  a  membership  card,  and  any  time  they  wanted  to  go  to  the  museum   to  check  things  out  or  research,  they  could  go  down  there.  So  I  thought  that  was  good.  Uh,   when  I  first  became  president  of  the  museum,  we  were  suffering  a  little  bit  because  uh,   financially,  cus'  we're  dependent,  the  museum  is  dependent  of  grants  and  donations,  uh  and,   uh  an  antiques  show  they  had  once  a  year.  And  they  were  struggling,  and  we  were  in  the  red,   we  were  in  debt.  And  I'm  happy  to  say  that  by  the  time  I  left  as  president  we  were  in  the  black,   we  were  showing  a  profit.  And  I  think  they  are  doing  fine  now.  Um,  so  all-­‐all  of  that  was  a  good   experience.       CC:  So  what  did  you  do  at  the  [Saratoga  Springs]  History  museum?  You  were  on  the  board-­‐   DP:  Yup.   CC:  You  helped  with  the  director  [search],  so  what  else  did  you  do  there?     DP:  Well  when-­‐  it's  easier  to  say  when  I  was  president  of  the  board,  because  when  I  was  on  the   board  I  was  doing  whatever  the  president  at  the  time  wanted  to  do  or  the  director,  and  it   wasn't  that  much.  When  I  became  president,  I  thought  to  myself,  "Saratoga  [Springs]  history  is   so  great,  there's  so  much  here."  Um,  "And  this  museum  is  so  great,  it's  the  oldest  museum  in   the  city."  So  I  had  every  member  of  the  board  pick  a  month  of  the  year,  and  whatever  month   they  picked  they  put  on  a  program  for  the  public  on  some  aspect  of  Saratoga  [Springs]  history.   And  we  had  everything  from  board  members  reenacting  plays,  to  doing  readings,  to  just  telling   the  history  of  the  potato  chip,  uh  all-­‐  but  all  of  them  learned  more  about  the  museum  and   about  Saratoga's  [Springs']  history  by  doing  that.  So  when  their  time  came  up  to  leave  the   board,  a  lot  of  them  wanted  to  stay  on  because  now  they  felt  more  invested  in  it.  So  I  was  very   proud  of  that.     CC:  Ok,  so  who  do  you  think  the  community  interacts  with  the  museum,  maybe  first,  when  you   first  came  on,  and  maybe  today,  too  as  well?     DP:  When  I  first  came  on  I  had  the  feeling  that  the-­‐  and  at  the  time  the  proper  name  of  it  was   the  "Saratoga  Springs  Historical  Society",  and  that  sounds  a  little  puffy,  a  little  high-­‐brow,  and   that's  kinda  how  I  though  the  museum  was.  Um,  like  appealing  only  to  old  money,  and  not  a   place  that  would  be  welcoming  to  like  a  young  family  in  Geyser  Crest  [a  neighborhood  in   �Saratoga  Springs],  or  any  student  anywhere  in  the  city,  even  at  Skidmore.  Uh,  the  other  good   thing  we  did,  by  the  way,  over  time  was  that  we  started  bringing  in  Skidmore  interns,  which   were  great,  because  they  were  learning  history  but  they  also  gave  us  good,  young  ideas  and   they're  good  with  the  technology.  But  I  think  when  I  first  came  here,  all  the  museums  in  the  city   were  c  -­‐were  like  uh,  only  for  you  know  that  little  percent  at  the  top,  at  least  that  was  the   perception.  And  I  think  now,  I  think  we  have  11  museums  in  the  city,  I  think  now  they're  a  little   more...  they're  perceived  to  be  more  accessible  by  more  people.     CC:  Ok.  I  guess  if  there  was  one  thing  that  you  really  liked  about  both  the  High  School  in   Saratoga  [Springs]  and  the  museums,  what  would  that  be?     DP:  The  people.  Um,  the  museum  and  the  community  has  wonderful  volunteers,  uh  anytime     something  comes  up  or  somebody  needs  something  or  group  needs  something,  I've  seen  the   people  of  Saratoga  Springs  step  right  up  and  get  into  it.  Um,  I  know  on  the  Skidmore  Campus   you  guys  have  a  program  called  "Skidmore  Cares"  where  I've  seen  you  out  raking  leaves  for   senior  citizens,  that's  great!  At  Saratoga  High  School  we  had  a  program  in  participation  in   government,  and  one  of  the  sections  of  it  that  I  taught,  that  class,  that  whole  class  for  [high   school]  seniors  was  to  go  out  and  to  contribute  to  the  community  somehow.  And  they  came  up   with  this  great  project,  and  a  matter  of  fact  we  planted  a  vegetable  garden  over  on  the  east   side  of  town,  oh  God  that  was  in  1997,  it's  still  there,  and  they're  still  using  it  for  the  soup   kitchen,  the  vegetables.  [Coughs]  So  I  think  the  people  have  been  really  rere-­‐  same  at  SUNY   Albany  [Sate  University  of  New  York  at  Albany]  when  I  was  down  there,  I  think  the  uh...  and   whenever  people  go  all  pessimistic  about  the  future  or  current  times  and  things,  I  don't,   because  uh,  first  of  all  I  have  historic  perspective  so  I  know  how  history  has  ups  and  downs,  but   I  also  have  great  faith  in  people,  and  I  think  uh,  I  think  people  will  pull  us  through.     CC:  Ok,  I  guess  if  there's  one  thing  you  would  like  to  change  in  some  form  in  the  high  school  or   the  museum  system,  what  would-­‐  what  would  you  like  to  do?     DP:  Change?  Hmm...   [pause]   DP:  Umm....   [long  pause]   DP:  I  have  to  think  about  that  for  a  second.   CC:  Take  your  time,  no  big  deal.   [long  pause]   DP:  Well  there  is  a  lot  of  changes  I  would  like  to  see  made  in  public  education.  I'll  just  give  you  a   couple  of  ideas.  I  would  like  to  see  every  student,  no  matter  what  their  academic  level  is,  take  a   semester  of  BOCES  [Boards  of  Cooperative  Educational  Services  of  New  York  state],  of   vocational  training,  and  learn  how  to  change  oil  in  a  car,  or  change  a  tire,  or...um...  you  know   there's  a  lot  of  options  at  the  vocational  training  school-­‐  or  basic  plumbing  or  carpentry  or   something.  Uh,  I-­‐I  think  we  went  for  a  long  time  in  this  country,  where  we  were  kinda  elitist,   and  we  just  said,  "the  only  people  really  who  are  successful  are  the  people  who  go  to  college,"   and  I  don't  think  that's  true.  We  will  always  needs  craftsmen,  plumbers,  electricians,  and   �actually  in  this  country  right  now  we  have  shortage  of  those.  We  have  a  storage  of  people  who   can  do  this-­‐  I  mean  everyone  wants  to  be  the  next  great  Einstein,  well,  Einstein  still  needs  a   place  to  work  and  someone's  gotta  build  that.  And  um,  so  I  would  like  to  see  more,  a  little  more   emphasis,  an-­‐an-­‐and  not  so  much  snobbery  looking  down  the  nose  at  vocational  training.  So  I   guess  that's  one  thing.  The  second  thing  would  be  ...  [clears  throat]  I'm  not  sure  how  you  do   this  so  Chris  I'll  leave  this  up  to  you,  I  hate  cliques,  it's  the  one  thing  I  hated  the  most  teaching   in  the  [Saratoga]  High  School  all  those  years.  So,  I  would  almost  like  to  see,  I  don't  know  you   would  do  it,  but  some  school  come  up  with  some  system  where  anyone  sits  anywhere,  at  the   cafeteria  table.  It's  not  cliques  all  sitting  together  or  ganging  up  on  somebody.  Because  the   bullying  that  goes  on  now  that's  made  headlines?  That's  gone  on  forever!  And  I  think  it  comes   from  cliques.  And  bullies,  basically,  are  insecure,  and  I  think,  in  a  way,  cliques-­‐  they're  kinda   tribal  in  nature,  they  make  insecure  people  feel  better  if  they're  with  a  bunch  of  other  insecure   people.  So,  I've  always  hated  that.  Now,  we've  had  a  couple  of  classes  there,  class  of  '84,  the   class  of  '90,  the  class  of  '94,  uh  those  three  in  particular  stick  out  to  me  because  they  weren't   cliquey.  Everybody  in  that  class  seemed  to  get  along  with  everybody  else!  And  that  was  great.     CC:  Ok.  Anything  about  the  museums  you  would  like  to  change?     DP:  Uh,  not  I  just  wish  they  would  find  a  way,  or  somebody  would  come  up  with  a  way,  that   more  people  in  town  didn't  feel  intimidated  by  them,  and  would  ch-­‐and  would...  maybe  what   you  do,  I  don't  know  how  you  would  do  this,  if  they  could  get,  uh  an  endowment  of  some  kind,   um,  and  everybody  in  the  city,  for  like,  one  year,  could  just  go  to  any  museum  they  wanted   whenever  they  wanted  for  free,  just  so  people  would  go  and  see  what  we  have  here.  We  have   this  treasury  here,  but  A.  People  don't  wanna-­‐  or  can't  perhaps,  pay  the  money  to  join  the   museum,  or  B.  they  feel  intimidated  because  they  don't  feel  like  they're  welcome  in  the   museum,  and  I-­‐  if  we  can  get  a  more  welcoming  feeling  somehow,  um,  after  we  started  the   program  were  we  get  the-­‐  let  the  kids  be  free  members,  I-­‐I  let  the  kids  put  on  a  program  one   night,  I  think  it  was  in  May  one  year,  on  the  history  of  immigration  into  Saratoga  [Springs],  and   they  did  like  five  different  groups  of  immigrants,  and  they  put  up  an  actual  display.  And  we  left   it  up  in  the  museum  for  the  whole  summer.  People  loved  it!  Uh  but  they-­‐  all  the  words  were   from  the  kids,  the  pictures  were  all  chosen  by  the  kids,  they  put  it  up-­‐  well  we  had  an  opening   night,  and  I  was  hoping  we  might  fifteen  to  twenty  of  the  parents  to  show  up,  this  was  a  class  of   uh,  trying  to  think,  maybe  35  kids  I  had  in  it.  We  had  three  hundred  people  show  up!  Uh  they   were  streaming  out  the  door  and  the  parents  and  the  grandparents  were  so  proud  of  their  kids,   but  the  other  thing  I  noticed  was  so  many  of  them  were  said  [saying]  to  me,  "Hi,  I've  never  been   in  here  before."  And  it  was  great  to  at  least  get  them  in  the  museum.     CC:  Hmm.  So  what  was  it  like  starting  the  tour  uh  company?     DP:  Oh  the  tour  company?  Well,  unbeknownst  to  the  two  of  us,  this  is  with  my  buddy  Charlie   Kuenzel,  Charlie  was  a  science  teacher,  I  had  taught  two  of  three  kids,  and  Charlie  was  doing   tours...  they  weren't  tours,  Charlie  would  take  his  science  classes  around  to  the  springs  to  test   the  mineral  waters,  went  to  rock  formations  in  the  city  like  down  in-­‐  have  you  been,  I  know   you've  been  Chris,  you  know,  High  Rock  Spring?  Where  you  can  see  where  the  earthquake   �caused  the  springs  to  start.  So  he  would  take  his  kids  around  town  to  that.  Well  I  was  trying  to   start,  and  I  eventually  did  start,  a  Saratoga  [Springs]  history  class  for  [high  school]  seniors.  So  I   was  taking  of  groups  of  kids  mostly  down  to  the  casino,  to  the  museum  [the  History  Museum  is   in  the  old  building  of  the  Canfield  Casino],  into  Congress  park  and  tell  them  the  story  of  that.  So   one  day  and  I  thi-­‐  I  wa-­‐  oh,  what  we  did  was  we  each  started,  for  professional  development  for   teachers,  offering  a  two  hour  course  for  teachers  on  the  history  of  Saratoga  Springs.  He  was   doing  it  from  the  science  point  of  view  I  was  doing  it  from  history.  And  somebody  said,  "I  took   Charlie's  course,"  he  took  my  course,  and  somebody  said,  "Why  don't  you  guys  just  do  this   together?"  And  uh,  so  we  said  "Alright,  we'll  try  it."  So  we  started  teaching  that  to  teachers  a   couple  times  together.  We  became  great  friends,  we  hit  it  off  great.  The  science  and  social   studies  and  the  history  meshed,  and  uh,  that's  how  the  tour  business  started.     CC:  Cool,  so  when  did  you  start  that  independent  of  the  school?     DP:  1999,  I-­‐I  think  it's  been  almost  twenty  years.  And  over  that  time  we've  tours  to  uh,  two   hundred  FBI  agents,  the  Second  Circuit  of  Appeals  [United  States  Court  of  Appeals  for  the   Second  Circuit]  including  jus-­‐  including  Justice  [Ruth  Bader]  Ginsburg,  Demi  Lovato  and  her   band,  umm  [pause]  oh  I  mean  any  kind  of  group  you  can  imagine  uh  we've  given  tours  too.     CC:  And  have  you  changed  that  [DP  starts  speaking]  since  you  started?     DP:  Oh  of  course!  We've  worked  with  uh,  Professor  Dym's  classes  here  at  Skidmore,  and  at   Skidmore  orientation.     CC:  Anyway,  have  you  changed  the  tour  over  the  years  as  well?  Or  has  it  [DP  starts  speaking]   remained  pretty  consistent?     DP:  Well  the  nice  thing  is  with  history,  it  really  doesn't  change...   CC:  Um  hm.   DP:  ...and  if  it  does  if  there's  something  wrong.  [laughs]  Um,  but  what  has  happened  over  time   is,  every  year  I've  learned  more  of  the  history  of  Saratoga  [Springs].  Like  I  don't  you're  learning   of  it  ever  stops.  And  so  that's  changed,  a  lot  of  things  have  been  added  to  it,  but  like  I  said   before  with  teaching  a  history  course,  if  you're  adding  more  things  to  it  you  gotta  look  for   things  to  take  out.   CC:  Mm  hm.   DP:  Um,  so  that's  happened.  But  mostly  it's  the  same  as  what  we  did  twenty  years  ago.     CC:  I  guess  has-­‐  have  you  learned  anything  that  surprised  you  recently?     DP:  Oh  all  lot,  um  [pause]  Gideon  Putnam,  came  to  Saratoga  Springs  when  he  was  twenty  five   years  old,  and  his  wife  was  uh  Doanda,  I  think  was  twenty  two  or  twenty  three.  He  is  considered   the  founder  of  Saratoga  Springs,  now  there  were  people  here  before  him,  but  he  was  a   lumberman,  and  he  laid  out  the  village  of  Saratoga,  down-­‐  what  is  now  downtown  Saratoga.  His   wife,  Doanda,  would  whitewash  trees,  put  whitewash  on  trees,  and  then  he,  the  lumberman,   �would  cut  the  trees  down,  and  that's  how  they  made  the  roads.  So,  two  things  having  to  do  him   I  learned  that  I  thought  were  interesting.  One  was,  we  always  thought,  "This  guy  is  a  genius  for   making  a  road  one  hundred  and  forty  seven  feet  wide  in  the  middle  of  the  woods,"  because   today,  I  mean,  it's  great  width,  you  know,  'cus  most  streets  aren't  like  that,  especially  not  in   1789.  Well  it  turns  out  we  found  writings  of  Gideon  Putnam  and  the  reason  the  street  was  that   wide  was  because  he  was  a  lumberman,  and  he  pulled  a  cart  behind  his  horses,  he  would  let   them  back  the  cart  up  without  having  to  make  all  these  fancy  maneuvers,  so  he  could  turn  the   cart  around,  at  one  hundred  and  forty  seven  feet,  and  that's  why  the  road  is  that  wide.  So  it   was  very  practical  but  that  was  interesting.  The  other  thing  about  him  I  thought  was  interesting,   well  two  things,  two  more  things.  One  was,  he  set  up  the  first  school  in  Saratoga,  first  public   school,  he  set  up  the  first  church  in  Saratoga,  both  over  on  Washington  street,  and  he  also  set   up  the  first  burial  ground,  and  unfortunately  he  was  the  first  one  buried  in  the  burial  ground.   And  the  last  thing  about  him  that  I  think  is  interesting  is  that  I  never  knew,  uh  was  that  his  uncle   was  the  founder  of  Marietta,  Ohio,  so  it  must  have  been  in  their  blood.     CC:  Anyway,  I  guess,  since  we're  starting  to  approach  thirty  minutes  here,  I  guess  I'll  leave  off   with  one  question  that,  in  class  we  discussed,  and  then  I  think  as  a  historian  you  might  find   interesting,  we  noticed  that  in  the  town  of  Saratoga  [Springs]  there's  a  lot  of  statues  of  horses,   and  uh  they  have  jockeys  and  there  is  a  Civil  War  solider,  but  there  isn't  really  as  many  statues   as  individuals.  Who  do  you  think  you  would  like  to  see  a  statue  of  in  town?     DP:  Oh!  What  a  good  question.  Professor  Dym.  Uh,  how  about  uh,  let's  see,  "Who  would  I  like   to  see  a  statue  of,"  -­‐  well  interestingly,  of  all  the  people  in  Saratoga  history,  the  one  we  have  no   idea  what  he  looks  like  is  Gideon  Putnam.  Everyone  else  we  at  least  have  a  sketch  or  a   photograph  or  something,  we  have  no  idea  what  he  looks  like.  His  wife  we  have,  his  kids,  but   not  him,  so  I  don't  you  could  do  that  statue.  Uh,  who  would  you  do  a  sat-­‐  want  to  hear  an   interesting  fun  fact  about  Saratoga  Springs?     CC:  Sure!   DP:  Almost  all  of  the  great  things  that  happened  in  the  city  since  1789,  since  Gideon  Putnam,   were  done  by  people  who  moved  here,  not  by  people  who  were  born  here.  That's  fascinating.   Um  alright  so  who  do  we  want  statue  to?   [Long  pause]   Mine  would  be  a  little  bit  controversial,  but  my  statute  would  be  to  John  Morrissey,  John   Morrissey  not  only  built  the  Canfield  Casino,  but  he  founded  the  racetrack  [Saratoga  Race   Course],  and  I  think  most  peop-­‐  and  you  can  make  a  pretty  good  argument,  that  over  the  years,   those  two  things  were  the  two  biggest  attractions  in  Saratoga  Springs.     CC:  Ok  cool,  anyway,  thank  you  for  your  time  today!     DP:  Oh,  thank  you!     � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data .wav Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit The date create the item in euro 8/03/18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cocchi, Christopher, 2019 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paterson, Dave Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Lucy Scribner Library Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Christopher Cocchi: Ok, testing 1,2,3. I think its working. Ok! So uh, first thing is that, uh do you, just to go over uh, verbal consent, uh do you agree to what you signed before about, you know, hav- lending your voice to the uh, Saratoga or Skidmore Memory Project [Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project (SSMP)] and uh, you know, letting it be used online and whatnot? Dave Paterson: I do. CC: Cool, thank you. Anyway, first things first I just have to record just the empty the noise here so that they can edit it out so I'm just gonna be silent for about a few seconds here [Pause] CC: Ok, so for the record, my name is Christopher Cocchi, I'm here with Dave Paterson, in the Skidmore Library in the Media Viewing room, and I'm interviewing him for the Public History in Skidmore with Professor [Jordana] Dym. So uh, I guess, to begin, uh, what's uh, just tell me about yourself, like uh, when were you born or like where did you live growing up? DP: Ok, I was born in south Boston- CC: Um hm. DP:-in 1954. CC: Um hm. DP : And, uh, I've been in Saratoga [Springs] for the last 47 years. I've taught for over 30 years at the [Saratoga Springs] high school here, [as the] Social Studies department head, and overlapping 15 years at The University at Albany. Uh, in the midst of all that teaching of I was also President of the Saratoga Springs History Museum, and for 19 years a friend of mine and I have run a company called Saratoga Tours, where we give historic tours of Saratoga Springs. CC: Ok cool. So uh, what got you interested in history in the first place? DP: Probably my 8th grade history teacher, uh, Mr.Curren [SP?], and uh, he's the first one who made who made it more about how and why instead of, memorizing who, what, when, and where and dates and all those, and uh, I always liked to read. And once I started reading history, then I wanted to read more, it's like, now I'm writing for Saratoga Living Magazine, I think the new, the new relaunch of the magazine just came out a couple days ago, and I have an article in there that I wrote for them about the blizzard of 1888 when we got 57 inches of snow. But while I was researching that, and reading up on that, then I found a bunch more questions I wanted answers to so then I go off on- and that's the great thing about history, you're never done. CC: Um hm. That's very cool. Now uh, where did you go after your, uh, experience in public school, like which university did you [DP starts speaking] go to from there? DP: Oh, uh college-wise I was at the, first was at the University of Miami. CC: Um hm. DP: Uh, I was playing Baseball also at the time so I left Miami, um I ended up getting degrees from Boston College, uh, University at Albany, and [ The College of] Saint Rose. CC: Ok cool. And what was your first experience out of college? DP: [Deep breath] [You] mean work wise? CC: Yeah. DP: I taught for half a year in Rutland, Vermont. I was the fourth teacher they had hired, because the 7th and 8th graders were driving all the substitute people crazy, and I remember I started in February, oh I think 1980, and I get through the rest of the school year with them, and a matter of fact, on like the second the second to last week of school, the assistant superintendent asked me if I was available to come back an- oh- then next year and I said I was. And he said they were going to give me like a "The 8th grade teacher of the year award" and I said oh this is great, and then the next week I got laid off! CC: Oh! DP: [Laughs] So I was going to go back to Boston and open up a sporting goods store, and uh, on my way down through, I had interviewed at Saratoga High School before, but they already had a position filled, on my way down- I was packing up my car literally, on the day I was going to go to Boston, when Saratoga called and said "we have an opening, do you want to come up and interview?" [Unsure mumble] I said ok, I will. So I went up, they hired me, and I've been there for the last 40 years. CC: Uh, so, what was your- what was- wh- what was your teaching at Saratoga High [School]? DP: Uh, really good. Uh, Saratoga [Springs]'s a really good school district. Uh, I taught everything you can teach in the Social Studies from grades 7 to 12. Every level of student, from the weakest kids we had, a lot of kids with special needs, up to the Advanced Placement courses, uh I think I was only the 2nd Advance Placement U.S. History teacher in the county when we started that program. Um, I also taught in summer school I taught phys. ed. [Physical Education], I taught English, Social Studies, so, but, you know, all in all a terrific experience. Great kids. CC: So, how- did anything change over the years that you were teaching History at Saratoga High School? DP: [Deep breath] Well, [pause] that's one of the great things about history, things do change as time goes on, um the first kids I taught in the 1980's, I don't know if you'll remember Chris but there used to be a show on TV, a TV show in the 80's called "Family Ties". CC: Um hmm. DP: And most of the kids in the 80's were a lot like that Alex P. Keaton character. You know, they were the Michael Fox character, um, very preppy kind of thing, and we went through ph-phase for a while, but then we get into a phase where uh, everybody was getting piercings everywhere, and then we got into a phase where the clothes got kinda wild, and then it went back to more conservative dress. So it's kinda been all over the place, and uh, its interesting because towards the end of my career I noticed I was teaching a lot of the sons and daughters of kids I taught 30 years before. CC: Did uh the material you taught change at all or was it pretty consistent? DP: Well the tough thing with History is- and Math teachers don't understand this- um, there's a finite amount of information to teach in the AP [Advanced Placement] or Regents [Examinations] Math or Science courses, so they can usually schedule their courses to end, let's say, mid-May, or early May, which will give them to review for either the AP exam or the Regents. Well, History just gets added onto every year. So, for example when we get to 2001, you can't leave out 9/11, that's too important [of] a piece of history. So as you add things in, you have to edit other things that you've been teaching over time. So, you figure, when I started, was the first year Reagan, Ro-Ro Ronald Reagan was president, um when I ended [Barack] Obama was president. Well, a lot changed, and then you gotta teach all that. So, the amount I had to teach changed, and I think my methods of teaching changed. CC: Could you go into that, like wh-wh- how did your methods change? DP: Well, [Cough] education isn't a once size fit all, I don't think, although I-it does make me laugh because [the] New York Department of Education continually talks about differentiated instruction, which is the idea that every student should be treated differently and taught according to, you know, what they can do. And I agree with that philosophically, [Cough] yet they want every kid to sit down for same Regents exam, whether you live in Long Island, or Brooklyn, or Saratoga Springs. And to me that is a little ridiculous. I never had a student fail a state test, but I think the reason for that is, because even with lowest level kids I taught, I always treated Social Studies, and I think it's true of any subject [test], as a vocabulary test. As long the kids understand what the questions are at the end of the year, they can answer them. What happens is a lot of teachers think they're being a good teacher, what they'll do something like this, they'll say, I'll be teaching a class and I'll say "Ok, so were when the immigrants were coming into New York City, and they were being processed, and they were slowly getting accepted and they got jobs in factories, and they started to learn the English language, and customs in America, that's called Assimilation." Well some teachers, thinking they're just trying to help the kids, will just refer to it as "fitting in", 'cus the kids will understand it better. The problem is when they get to the Regents exam, the Regents uses the word "assimilation", and if a student doesn't associate the word assimilation with the immigrant experience, they're not going to get the question right. So I learned early on that vocabulary was an important part. Also early on when I was teaching it was a lot more chalk talk lecturing, as then as time when the technology get so good with the Smartboards and things, I could work in, instead of telling kids about Martin Luther Kings' [Jr.] "I Have a Dream" speech, I can play them a quick 5 minute excerpt, I can show them an inauguration, um, so that was good. CC: Ok, uh do you have any like, uh stories from any particular incidences [incidents] from your time in the [Saratoga] high school? DP: [Laughs] Stories relative to what? CC: I guess like for instance like, did you ever have like a student that like, made you think "Hey, you know, this might be an interesting way to teach it next time." Or did a teacher come up to you and say something that like, made think of, like... DP: Oh several times, I think most of the times the changes I've made in my teaching methods over the years came from a feedback I got from students. Um, because you a different group of students every year, and they come at things from a different perspective. Uh, one of my favorite students ever was a young man who came up to me and said, he was very nice, he was thanking me for the course, for teaching the course, for teaching the course and everything, and then he said "You know what I really liked a lot was when we worked in groups." And I hadn't really been too big on group projects, but for the next years I took a couple of the units and I made them group projects things, and all of them- well not all of them- most of the kids really seem to like it. So then the next year I did a little more of that, and-and that happened a few times in my career, he's now a very successful doctor at a Mass. General Boston [Massachusetts General Hospital at Boston]. CC: Cool. Uh, so what was like- wh-what was life like living in Saratoga [Springs] at the time, 'cus you were new to the area, correct? DP: Yeah Saratoga [Springs] is uh [small pause] it's an interesting city. Uh when I first moved up here, there seemed to me there was a strong feeling like Broadway was the dividing line in the city. And, briefly when I first moved here I lived in an apartment on the east side of Broadway. And, but for most of the time I've been here I lived in a house on the west side. And it seemed to me in maybe the first 10 years I lived here, there was a dividing line between the people of west Saratoga [Springs], west of Broadway and east of Broadway, and so, of course I got curious and I started doing research and talking to people, and uh the [Saratoga] High School used to be, way back when, over where uh, uh Lake Ave. [Avenue] Elementary School is. So the kids from [the] West side of Saratoga [Springs] had a longer walk than the kids from the east side of Saratoga [Springs], and there was a train that cut the path, they went by where the Price Chopper is, Railroad Place [Aparements]. So, the kids from the West side had to time- since they used to let them home for lunch- but you had to time it right so the train wasn't holding you up. Um, and o- and then the trains disappeared and all that, but that "feeling" seemed to stay with a lot of old-timers. So that was interesting to me. That's now changed, I don't feel that now. Saratoga [Springs] is uh, I think- I think I read that as of two years ago, for the first time, there are now more people living in Saratoga [Springs] who weren't born here than were born here, so that's a big change in that. Um, but Saratoga [Springs] you know, you look at its over the years, it reinvents itself all the time. And I think it's done that when the [Saratoga] City Center came about in 1984, Saratoga [Springs] got revitalized, and boy, where else would you want to be now? CC: Um hm, so, how do you think the people of Saratoga [Springs] changed during your time uh- DP: The time I've been here? CC: Um hm. DP: [Deep breath, pause] Well, I-I thought it was noteworthy that a couple years ago Saratoga [Springs] get [got] named the "Friendliest city in New York", 'cus I think the people are very friendly. Um, we're also very also very much Wonderbread, in the sense that we're- like, I don't know what we are, 90% Caucasian or something, so its been nice to see an influx of minorities into the city of Saratoga Springs, and uh- and its been to see the city of Saratoga Springs kind of incorporating the kids or the students from Skidmore more. Uh, there was a time there were the community town and gown relationships weren't that great. But I think the college has made an effort and I think the community has made an effort to try and get closer, and I think that helps both sides. CC: I guess, is it ok if you give an example of when times weren't good between the community and the college and maybe a more recent example how [DP starts speaking] that kinda works for the better? DP: Ok, I have to go into my little history thing here for you to do that Chris, but I would say this, there was a time not too long ago, I'm going to say the 1960s, and maybe the 50s and maybe even the 70s- but I wasn't here so I'm not sure, when every year- 'cus in those days Skidmore was uh- until the late 60s-early 70s Skidmore was downtown, the campus. But whenever the Skidmore kids came to start a new school year, li- businesses would have signs like "Welcome Skidmore Students" and badubub, you know, and the whole community was like "Oh, we're happy to have the Skidmore kids back." Well when I came here in 1981 there was none of that. As a matter of fact there was even some "We don't want those Skidmore kids down here, where you got to keep an eye on them," and blahblahblah. But now I've noticed in the last few years they're back to the Chamber of Commerce is talking again "Why don't we put those signs up again?" Uh, so that's a good thing. CC: Ok cool. So, I know you mentioned that during this time you became involved with the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum. DP: Yup. CC: How did that happen? DP: I think I got involved with like six or eight groups in Saratoga Springs, but I became president of the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum. The reason was I was down there alot, researching things- as I said when we started, as I get questions on things I have to delve more into them. So a lot of questions I had, I always think the best way to teach history is-if I can get the kids to relate to it from things that happened in their community, then they can kinda see it with the United States and maybe globally. So I was in the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum alot doing research, and at one point, um, the director at the time, asked me if I would be willing to join the board. So, I did, I joined the board at the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum, and I learned alot from those people. Many of them were old-timers, uh, who had been here forever. And I just listened to them tell their stories. Fascinating. So, then that director left, and I was one of the people in charge of finding the new director. So the person we ended up hiring was Jamie Parillo [James D. Parillo], he's still the director there now, young guy, he had worked at Saratoga National Battlefield [Saratoga Battlefield, part of the Saratoga National Historical Park]. Um, once Jamie came on board he brought kind of a youthful exuberance to it. As a matter of fact we started a program where- 'cus I said, "We gotta reach out kids more." So we started something that hadn't been done before, it was a Junior Membership, so that any kid who wanted to be a member of the [Saratoga Springs] History Museum, basically got a free membership. So they got a membership card, and any time they wanted to go to the museum to check things out or research, they could go down there. So I thought that was good. Uh, when I first became president of the museum, we were suffering a little bit because uh, financially, cus' we're dependent, the museum is dependent of grants and donations, uh and, uh an antiques show they had once a year. And they were struggling, and we were in the red, we were in debt. And I'm happy to say that by the time I left as president we were in the black, we were showing a profit. And I think they are doing fine now. Um, so all-all of that was a good experience. CC: So what did you do at the [Saratoga Springs] History museum? You were on the board- DP: Yup. CC: You helped with the director [search], so what else did you do there? DP: Well when- it's easier to say when I was president of the board, because when I was on the board I was doing whatever the president at the time wanted to do or the director, and it wasn't that much. When I became president, I thought to myself, "Saratoga [Springs] history is so great, there's so much here." Um, "And this museum is so great, it's the oldest museum in the city." So I had every member of the board pick a month of the year, and whatever month they picked they put on a program for the public on some aspect of Saratoga [Springs] history. And we had everything from board members reenacting plays, to doing readings, to just telling the history of the potato chip, uh all- but all of them learned more about the museum and about Saratoga's [Springs'] history by doing that. So when their time came up to leave the board, a lot of them wanted to stay on because now they felt more invested in it. So I was very proud of that. CC: Ok, so who do you think the community interacts with the museum, maybe first, when you first came on, and maybe today, too as well? DP: When I first came on I had the feeling that the- and at the time the proper name of it was the "Saratoga Springs Historical Society", and that sounds a little puffy, a little high-brow, and that's kinda how I though the museum was. Um, like appealing only to old money, and not a place that would be welcoming to like a young family in Geyser Crest [a neighborhood in Saratoga Springs], or any student anywhere in the city, even at Skidmore. Uh, the other good thing we did, by the way, over time was that we started bringing in Skidmore interns, which were great, because they were learning history but they also gave us good, young ideas and they're good with the technology. But I think when I first came here, all the museums in the city were c -were like uh, only for you know that little percent at the top, at least that was the perception. And I think now, I think we have 11 museums in the city, I think now they're a little more... they're perceived to be more accessible by more people. CC: Ok. I guess if there was one thing that you really liked about both the High School in Saratoga [Springs] and the museums, what would that be? DP: The people. Um, the museum and the community has wonderful volunteers, uh anytime something comes up or somebody needs something or group needs something, I've seen the people of Saratoga Springs step right up and get into it. Um, I know on the Skidmore Campus you guys have a program called "Skidmore Cares" where I've seen you out raking leaves for senior citizens, that's great! At Saratoga High School we had a program in participation in government, and one of the sections of it that I taught, that class, that whole class for [high school] seniors was to go out and to contribute to the community somehow. And they came up with this great project, and a matter of fact we planted a vegetable garden over on the east side of town, oh God that was in 1997, it's still there, and they're still using it for the soup kitchen, the vegetables. [Coughs] So I think the people have been really rere- same at SUNY Albany [Sate University of New York at Albany] when I was down there, I think the uh... and whenever people go all pessimistic about the future or current times and things, I don't, because uh, first of all I have historic perspective so I know how history has ups and downs, but I also have great faith in people, and I think uh, I think people will pull us through. CC: Ok, I guess if there's one thing you would like to change in some form in the high school or the museum system, what would- what would you like to do? DP: Change? Hmm... [pause] DP: Umm.... [long pause] DP: I have to think about that for a second. CC: Take your time, no big deal. [long pause] DP: Well there is a lot of changes I would like to see made in public education. I'll just give you a couple of ideas. I would like to see every student, no matter what their academic level is, take a semester of BOCES [Boards of Cooperative Educational Services of New York state], of vocational training, and learn how to change oil in a car, or change a tire, or...um... you know there's a lot of options at the vocational training school- or basic plumbing or carpentry or something. Uh, I-I think we went for a long time in this country, where we were kinda elitist, and we just said, "the only people really who are successful are the people who go to college," and I don't think that's true. We will always needs craftsmen, plumbers, electricians, and actually in this country right now we have shortage of those. We have a storage of people who can do this- I mean everyone wants to be the next great Einstein, well, Einstein still needs a place to work and someone's gotta build that. And um, so I would like to see more, a little more emphasis, an-an-and not so much snobbery looking down the nose at vocational training. So I guess that's one thing. The second thing would be ... [clears throat] I'm not sure how you do this so Chris I'll leave this up to you, I hate cliques, it's the one thing I hated the most teaching in the [Saratoga] High School all those years. So, I would almost like to see, I don't know you would do it, but some school come up with some system where anyone sits anywhere, at the cafeteria table. It's not cliques all sitting together or ganging up on somebody. Because the bullying that goes on now that's made headlines? That's gone on forever! And I think it comes from cliques. And bullies, basically, are insecure, and I think, in a way, cliques- they're kinda tribal in nature, they make insecure people feel better if they're with a bunch of other insecure people. So, I've always hated that. Now, we've had a couple of classes there, class of '84, the class of '90, the class of '94, uh those three in particular stick out to me because they weren't cliquey. Everybody in that class seemed to get along with everybody else! And that was great. CC: Ok. Anything about the museums you would like to change? DP: Uh, not I just wish they would find a way, or somebody would come up with a way, that more people in town didn't feel intimidated by them, and would ch-and would... maybe what you do, I don't know how you would do this, if they could get, uh an endowment of some kind, um, and everybody in the city, for like, one year, could just go to any museum they wanted whenever they wanted for free, just so people would go and see what we have here. We have this treasury here, but A. People don't wanna- or can't perhaps, pay the money to join the museum, or B. they feel intimidated because they don't feel like they're welcome in the museum, and I- if we can get a more welcoming feeling somehow, um, after we started the program were we get the- let the kids be free members, I-I let the kids put on a program one night, I think it was in May one year, on the history of immigration into Saratoga [Springs], and they did like five different groups of immigrants, and they put up an actual display. And we left it up in the museum for the whole summer. People loved it! Uh but they- all the words were from the kids, the pictures were all chosen by the kids, they put it up- well we had an opening night, and I was hoping we might fifteen to twenty of the parents to show up, this was a class of uh, trying to think, maybe 35 kids I had in it. We had three hundred people show up! Uh they were streaming out the door and the parents and the grandparents were so proud of their kids, but the other thing I noticed was so many of them were said [saying] to me, "Hi, I've never been in here before." And it was great to at least get them in the museum. CC: Hmm. So what was it like starting the tour uh company? DP: Oh the tour company? Well, unbeknownst to the two of us, this is with my buddy Charlie Kuenzel, Charlie was a science teacher, I had taught two of three kids, and Charlie was doing tours... they weren't tours, Charlie would take his science classes around to the springs to test the mineral waters, went to rock formations in the city like down in- have you been, I know you've been Chris, you know, High Rock Spring? Where you can see where the earthquake caused the springs to start. So he would take his kids around town to that. Well I was trying to start, and I eventually did start, a Saratoga [Springs] history class for [high school] seniors. So I was taking of groups of kids mostly down to the casino, to the museum [the History Museum is in the old building of the Canfield Casino], into Congress park and tell them the story of that. So one day and I thi- I wa- oh, what we did was we each started, for professional development for teachers, offering a two hour course for teachers on the history of Saratoga Springs. He was doing it from the science point of view I was doing it from history. And somebody said, "I took Charlie's course," he took my course, and somebody said, "Why don't you guys just do this together?" And uh, so we said "Alright, we'll try it." So we started teaching that to teachers a couple times together. We became great friends, we hit it off great. The science and social studies and the history meshed, and uh, that's how the tour business started. CC: Cool, so when did you start that independent of the school? DP: 1999, I-I think it's been almost twenty years. And over that time we've tours to uh, two hundred FBI agents, the Second Circuit of Appeals [United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit] including jus- including Justice [Ruth Bader] Ginsburg, Demi Lovato and her band, umm [pause] oh I mean any kind of group you can imagine uh we've given tours too. CC: And have you changed that [DP starts speaking] since you started? DP: Oh of course! We've worked with uh, Professor Dym's classes here at Skidmore, and at Skidmore orientation. CC: Anyway, have you changed the tour over the years as well? Or has it [DP starts speaking] remained pretty consistent? DP: Well the nice thing is with history, it really doesn't change... CC: Um hm. DP: ...and if it does if there's something wrong. [laughs] Um, but what has happened over time is, every year I've learned more of the history of Saratoga [Springs]. Like I don't you're learning of it ever stops. And so that's changed, a lot of things have been added to it, but like I said before with teaching a history course, if you're adding more things to it you gotta look for things to take out. CC: Mm hm. DP: Um, so that's happened. But mostly it's the same as what we did twenty years ago. CC: I guess has- have you learned anything that surprised you recently? DP: Oh all lot, um [pause] Gideon Putnam, came to Saratoga Springs when he was twenty five years old, and his wife was uh Doanda, I think was twenty two or twenty three. He is considered the founder of Saratoga Springs, now there were people here before him, but he was a lumberman, and he laid out the village of Saratoga, down- what is now downtown Saratoga. His wife, Doanda, would whitewash trees, put whitewash on trees, and then he, the lumberman, would cut the trees down, and that's how they made the roads. So, two things having to do him I learned that I thought were interesting. One was, we always thought, "This guy is a genius for making a road one hundred and forty seven feet wide in the middle of the woods," because today, I mean, it's great width, you know, 'cus most streets aren't like that, especially not in 1789. Well it turns out we found writings of Gideon Putnam and the reason the street was that wide was because he was a lumberman, and he pulled a cart behind his horses, he would let them back the cart up without having to make all these fancy maneuvers, so he could turn the cart around, at one hundred and forty seven feet, and that's why the road is that wide. So it was very practical but that was interesting. The other thing about him I thought was interesting, well two things, two more things. One was, he set up the first school in Saratoga, first public school, he set up the first church in Saratoga, both over on Washington street, and he also set up the first burial ground, and unfortunately he was the first one buried in the burial ground. And the last thing about him that I think is interesting is that I never knew, uh was that his uncle was the founder of Marietta, Ohio, so it must have been in their blood. CC: Anyway, I guess, since we're starting to approach thirty minutes here, I guess I'll leave off with one question that, in class we discussed, and then I think as a historian you might find interesting, we noticed that in the town of Saratoga [Springs] there's a lot of statues of horses, and uh they have jockeys and there is a Civil War solider, but there isn't really as many statues as individuals. Who do you think you would like to see a statue of in town? DP: Oh! What a good question. Professor Dym. Uh, how about uh, let's see, "Who would I like to see a statue of," - well interestingly, of all the people in Saratoga history, the one we have no idea what he looks like is Gideon Putnam. Everyone else we at least have a sketch or a photograph or something, we have no idea what he looks like. His wife we have, his kids, but not him, so I don't you could do that statue. Uh, who would you do a sat- want to hear an interesting fun fact about Saratoga Springs? CC: Sure! DP: Almost all of the great things that happened in the city since 1789, since Gideon Putnam, were done by people who moved here, not by people who were born here. That's fascinating. Um alright so who do we want statue to? [Long pause] Mine would be a little bit controversial, but my statute would be to John Morrissey, John Morrissey not only built the Canfield Casino, but he founded the racetrack [Saratoga Race Course], and I think most peop- and you can make a pretty good argument, that over the years, those two things were the two biggest attractions in Saratoga Springs. CC: Ok cool, anyway, thank you for your time today! DP: Oh, thank you! Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 33 Minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dave Paterson Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 11th, 2018 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Dave Paterson, formerly a History Teacher at Saratoga High School and president of the Saratoga Springs History Meusuem, currently a tour guide at Saratoga Tours. In this interview, he discusses his journey to Saratoga Springs, his views on how things have changed, his history of working for the High School and the Museum, as well as what he is still learning today. Language A language of the resource ENG Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cocchi, Christopher, 2019 History Saratoga Springs Saratoga Springs High School Saratoga Springs History Museum Saratoga Tours teaching https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f9882ec18297afb0ade3908794095d31.png 0b165f041b879387c8681b66057f75d8 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3f63526cd0a67ad280d2c9aa016b0c35.m4a d865b277c60e4ada0d3895e92c815dda https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0602d602a8247dbcb8ced4df6fd69871.pdf 4c6785b5f0c044e5dc53f74aa5b436ca PDF Text Text Interview with Laura (Lollie) Triebold '62 by Emma Griffin '19, COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program, February 13, 2019, Phone. LAURA TRIEBOLD [0:00:00]: …And so now we’re recording. EMMA GRIFFIN [0:00:03]: Ok, perfect. Um, and so, we’re gonna want to, ah, keep the smartphone right next to you so that we can hear as much as possible. LT [0:00:10]: Yes, I’ve got my home phone on speakerphone. EG [0:00:14]: Wonderful, perfect. Um, and then, ah, one more thing I have to ask you, we want as complete an interview as possible so, ahh, it’s gonna be a little bit awkward cause I can’t really, uh, interject like “mm hmm” or “yeah” that much, but just know that I’m listening and I’m, I’m very interested and very excited to hear it. LT [0:00:35]: Ok. EG [0:00:36]: And um if you’re ok with it I’d like you to kind of repeat back the questions I ask you, uh, at the beginning. LT [0:00:40]: Sure. EG [0:00:42]: Wonderful, thank you so much. Um, ok, so we’re going to start out with the first question: where were you from before you decided to apply to Skidmore’s nursing program? LT [0:00:53]: I, I have been born and raised in Whitewater, Wisconsin. I have always lived here in Whitewater. EG [0:01:01]: Uh, perfect. Um, let’s see… and then, next one is, did your family have a background in the field of medicine or nursing? LT [0:01:09]: Did my family have a background in medicine? Absolutely not. No med-no medical background whatsoever. EG [0:01:18]: Gotcha. Uh, so, where did your kind of interest in nursing come from? LT [0:01:25]: I really can't pinpoint it. Um, you know, in those days and the, in the 50s, you were either a teacher or a nurse. And of course, I think as I explained to you before, my mother wanted to make sure that I had a college education and um, so you know, we �were at odds ends for a while before we figured it out that I could become a nurse and also get a college education. EG [0:01:56]: Gotcha, wonderful. Let’s see… the next one is what was your educational background before you joined this program, your work history? LT [0:02:06]: Would you repeat that question please? EG [0:02:08]: Uh, yes. Uh, so what was your educational background or your work history before you joined the nursing program? LT [0:00:16]: I had a high school education, I was a Valedictorian of my class, and I went directly after graduation to Skidmore the following September. EG [0:02:27]: Wonderful. LT [0:02:29]: I do have two master's degrees if we want to talk about those at this time. EG [0:02:34]: Oh yeah, no, I'd love to. LT [0:02:36]: Okay. In, in the mid-seventies, I took a master's degree at the University of Wisconsin Whitewater campus in guidance and counseling. And then in 1995 I took, oh, in the 90s, I took a master's degree from Marquette University for a master’s degree in nursing at age 50. EG [0:03:00]: Wonderful. Um, the next part is about what drew you to the nursing program? LT [0:03:07]: Well, first of all, it was far away from home. I'm an only child (chuckles) and so I wanted to put some separation in there. Secondly, I had a cousin who was almost like a brother to me who was at Williams at the time. He's four years older than I, and he knew about the Skidmore girls and he knew about the nursing program. So, he was the one that put me on to the fact that I could get my nursing degree as well as a college degree. Um, that was the first thing. The second thing is that I came from a very small high school. There were a hundred totally in the four classes of the high school. And I wasn't, although I applied at Northwestern and at Cornell, I was not interested in the very large campuses. So, I went out to pick up my cousin at William, Williams, you know, I went with his mother and we stopped at the Skidmore campus and had an interview there my junior year. And of course, I fell in love with the campus. It was at that time it was all on Union Avenue, small dorms, um, not maybe the traditional campus setting. But, um, the interview went well and I, I felt um, that, that homey feeling of Skidmore. �EG [0:04:30]: Wonderful. Um, let's see. The next one is, what was your sense of the program before we get started? LT [0:04:38]: Say that again. EG [0:04:39]: Oh, uh, what was the sense of the nursing program before you started? What did you think about it? LT [0:04:47]: I, I had done some research on it and it was, it was one of the best programs. It was rated very highly in the United States. Also, it had the, the one-two-one configuration, whereas the rest of the, both John Hopkins and Cornell and I'm not sure about Northwestern, had two years on campus and then three years, like a diploma program education. And I liked the, the conciseness of it. And um, um, also it was made very clear to me that the reason it was a one-two-one program was at that final year we could be accepted into the higher-level humanity classes and um, that, that emphasis on humanities was important. EG [0:05:35]: Gotcha. Okay, let’s see. Tell me about what it was like in the program. What was the structure of the program and what classes do you remember taking? LT [0:05:47]: Okay. I think on some of the vignettes, I have already sent that out, but our freshman year was basically all anatomy, physiology, microbiology, chemistry, and so of course the nursing majors were all in class together. Um, the, the one class that I did not have, that they separated us out and gave us different sections was English 101 and then I believe both the psych and the soch. Um, we weren't totally together in those particular classes. EG [0:06:20]: Good, wonderful. Um, let’s see…oh, how would I compare the campus portion of the program up in Saratoga to the New York City portion? LT [0:06:31]: How would I compare the what? EG [0:06:34]: How would you compare your experience at Skidmore in Saratoga to Skidmore in New York City? LT [0:06:40]: Well, of course the two different environments, but as far, as far as the academics go that freshman year was tough. It was, it was, you know, we had all the, the five credit science courses I did, they had accepted 400 freshmen, um, that year. And at the end of the first semester, they identified the top 10 and I had a four point and I was one of the �top 10 and they were absolutely amazed that a nursing major would be able to carry that kind of a grade point. Um, it was, it, the academics in, in down in Sara…down in New York were entirely different. We, we knew we were learning things that we wanted to learn. And um, and in the, it was, it wasn't easy. It was rigorous academics, but it was much easier studying and putting your heart and soul into it. EG [0:07:41]: Wonderful. Now we’re going to move on to your career after Skidmore. So, what was your path after Skidmore, what did you do? LT [0:07:51]: Say that again. EG [0:07:52]: What was your path after Skidmore? So, like what happened in your career after you left Skidmore? LT [0:07:57]: Well, I came back to Wisconsin to take state boards and in July and during, during that summer, I interviewed in Chicago and I liked the large city of Manhattan. And so, I wanted to stay in a large hospital, teaching hospital. Went down to Chicago, had about five interviews, probably could have had all five jobs. I took a job at what was then called Pres. Saint Luke's. It is now called Rush Memorial hospital, a large hospital, well-known hospital in Chicago. I started on the pediatric floor and within three months they opened a new section of the pediatric floor and because of my baccalaureate degree they offered me the head nurse position there and I stayed there for about a year, came back to Wisconsin and was engaged and I spent that summer, that first summer after I had graduated, that next summer, as a camp nurse in a couple of Wisconsin girl scout camps. And then as soon as that was over, I had applied at a local hospital, which was a teaching hospital. It was run by the Sisters of Mercy and they immediately told me that they wanted me to teach, not to be a floor nurse and that again was because of the baccalaureate degree. And Agnes Gelinas had cautioned us all, they said, “You will be asked to teach and you do not have teaching skills. Do not go into teaching until you have garnered some teaching skills.” Well of course I wanted the job and I took the job and it was a three-year diploma program where I taught for a year, became pregnant, um, left, left for about, let's see, that was '63, '76, '70 for about four years. And um, then, um, I had an opportunity to have a 12 hour a week job as a county nurse, public health nurse. At that time, I had three kids underneath the age of four, I was milking cows morning and night and running 500 acres, but I kind of needed out. I needed into the nursing. So, um, in Wisconsin you are required to, if you work in, in public health, you'll required to have a certification for public health. Well, as I applied for that certification, I was five years out from school, and so normally the state would make me take other courses. Well, the head of licensing had been in Wisconsin for a number of years. She ran the department �with an iron fist and she called me up and she said “You do not need to take any educational courses. I am very familiar with Skidmore College and their public health program and so I am sending you your certificate.” And so, I did that for a couple of years and then I was offered a position to teach at in the Vo-Tech school, which I did. Um, I, let's see, I taught for a, you call them community colleges out in New York state, but this was a, a Vo-Tech school and they had opened an extension about 12, for practical nurses, about 12 miles from my home. And so, I taught that program for almost 30 years before I retired. EG [0:11:30]: Wonderful, wow, that is a full career! Um, I just want to know, were there any Skidmore nursing graduates that you knew that were also from Wisconsin, that you ran into in your career? LT [0:11:45]: No, I was, I think a token student from Wisconsin when I was accepted. There's a very high end, um, high school called New Trier in Chicago. Well there were a bunch of New Trier students at Skidmore, but none of them in nursing. EG [0:12:06]: Gotcha. Ok so, we’re going to move on to part four, which is related to the closing of the Skidmore program. How did you react to the closing of the nursing program? LT [0:12:18]: I had a class, I've stayed in contact with a number of my classmates in, at one of, about one of our, uh, I think maybe about 28 actually graduated with me. And, um, there's somewhere in the to the, two two programs so they wouldn't go back, come back to reunions. But I organized and we had I think 14 or 15 of those 28 to come back to one of the reunions. And one of those gals that I had kept in contact with worked for the state of New York. And so, we talked about the closing and she indicated that, and I had lost track with Skidmore, any of the, any of the, the actual instruction at Skidmore. She indicated that Skidmore was doing poorly on their state boards and she was very happy that it had closed because she didn't want to come from a school that now had a bad reputation in the state of New York. So, then those were my feelings. EG [0:13:17]: Wow. Let’s see…yep, so you agreed with her as well about the… LT [0:13:23]: Sure, sure. Yeah. EG [0:13:24]: …That you’d rather have a closed school than a program that’s… LT [0:13:28]: Sure, and I understood, you know, things were changing at that time. Women were, you know, as I said before, you know, when I graduated from high school, you either were a nurse, or a teacher, or a secretary and things were changing rapidly and �Agnes Gelinas was, was the, the solid point of the school. And she was a mentor to me and one that I still feel was very influential in my life. And of course, she retired. And so I, so I had no, no contact with, with who the faculty was, or who had taken over from that. EG [0:14:06]: Gotcha. Wonderful! And now, I'd just to, I was reading through these vignettes and they’re wonderful, especially the “Reminisces,” and I’d love to hear you kind of tell one of the stories. That'd be wonderful. LT [0:14:23]: Pardon me? EG [0:14:24]: Ah, the “Personal Reminisces” you wrote in one of your vignettes? Let's see, for example, the one about the pediatric unit… LT [0:14:33]: Ok! EG [0:14:34]: …love to hear you tell that. LT [0:14:36]: (chuckles) You mean the, that was in the psych unit, right? EG [0:14:41]: Yes. Yea. LT [0:14:43]: Okay. Well our psych experience was, yeah. First of all, I was there during the bitter winter of New York and there was no opportunity. I mean, we didn't, we didn't leave the psych building much. We ate there, we slept there, we studied there, we had classes there. And of course, we did our clinical work there. So, there was, a lot of us struggled with, with that. But in the pediatric unit there was about 10 kids and um, both boys and girls and, um, three of the boys were named Jeffrey. And one of the Jeffreys, the only way he communicated was to bark. And the psychiatrist said he was trying to express the four-letter word. Now back in the 60s, nobody expressed those words, let alone shriek them out in a, in a hoarse bark. So, we took him up to the Cloisters for just an outing and he decided that maybe in the Cloisters, where it echoed so beautifully, he could verbalize that word in its full meaning. And he did. We weren't very happy as students with all the tourists there. But, um, certainly he, um, his psychiatrist was very happy with the result. And when I got married, I said to my husband ‘I will not name a son Jeffrey. Absolutely not.’ And, um, we have three daughters, two of whom have wonderful husbands named Jeffrey. EG [0:16:21]: Wow! That is a unique experience there! �LT [0:16:24]: There was another story that I haven't written yet. There's a couple more vignettes, but the, at the time that we were in the psych rotation, Marilyn Monroe was admitted to Columbia hospital to the neurological unit and we all knew she was there and we all wanted to get a peek at her. But of course, it was well protected. And we knew the day she was leaving, but they took her out. All the hospitals in New York have what are known as tunnels underneath the ground. They connect the buildings. They’re usually pretty dank, dark places. Um, it's where we keep all the storage supplies and the janitorial supplies, but they took Marilyn out through the tunnels so that nobody, the news media could not get ahold of her at all. EG [0:17:16]: Wow. I’ve run out of questions I’m supposed to ask you! (both chuckle) But do you have any, any other anecdotes or anything else you'd like to say about this and nursing program? LT [0:17:25]: No, I have one more vignette that I'm going to be sending out, concerning some of the changes in medicine. You know, from the time that I was there. We, we had a ward at the university hospital about six beds that the students who didn't get into to give care, but they had severe, um, dermatological conditions. And, um, the year that we were there, it was the first year we were there, um, the docs had discovered a medication, a miracle medication by the name of Cortizone. And so, they, that was working wonders with the skin patients. It was, um, the, the inflammation was decreasing... beautifully. They sent a couple of the patients home for Thanksgiving dinner and when they came back, they had colds and by Christmas, half of that ward was dead because the steroids mask the infection. And so, there was a lot to be learned there. Um, gosh, I can't right now. I don't, I don't have it on the top of my head, but some of, some of those other things that I've seen change. When I was an OB, there was a drug named called “the twilight sleep”, and the name of it was, Scopolamine. They would give it to the high-end mothers, um, you know, the private patients to try and help ease their pain, during the, uh, the labor and delivery. And it was, uh, it, it was not a twilight sleep. I can remember three of us nurses laying on a mother, trying to keep her in bed. They just, they just kind of went wild and oh, said nasty, horrible things. And I still remember when I had our first child, I kept saying to the doctor “don't get me Scopolamine, don't give me Scopolamine.” And I don't know by the time I had children, whether that was a drug of use or not, but it certainly was when I was, uh, in the OB rotation. EG [0:19:27]: Wow. Well, but if you remember anything else and want to write about it, that would be wonderful. LT [0:19:36]: Well, I'll add one more thing. I am an only child, but I am the eldest of nine �pregnancies. Um, I was born in the 1940s. My mother was RH negative and as a result my blood type was positive. They didn't know much about positive and negative at that time. They really had not discovered the typing until, um, into the, in the war years. But the result is that my blood, because it was positive and it interacted with my mother's blood, but she built up antibodies to kill my red blood cells. Well I, I survived, but the siblings after me did not. When I was at OB, they had developed a new treatment for those babies that were born in that kind of an instance. And it was a total blood exchange. They would take the blood out of the baby and give new blood and I, I begged them to let me watch that particular procedure, which they understood my interest in it. Um, now, uh, I have a daughter who is RH negative and, but now they have a thing called Volga-M that they give to them immediately so that they don't develop those antibodies. So those are just some of the things I remember. EG [0:20:50]: Okay. Thank you so much for sharing. This is wonderful. LT [0:20:58]: I think that's about it. As I said, I had a couple of those vignettes about how medicine has changed. EG [0:21:06]: No, but yeah no. I think this is great. Thank you so much. LT [0:21:09]: And I don't know. I don't know. Did you, did you have an opportunity to do a little delving into the different types of programs? Um, that ended up with nursing? EG [0:21:19]: A little bit. I, we’re kind of, over the semester getting to know a little bit more. I've been working in the archives up in the library, kind of a sorting through stuff, learning more about the, the nursing program and everything else going on at that point. LT [0:21:37]: And I think I wrote one about state boards and how they've changed over the years. Well, so… EG [0:21:45]: Oh yes, yes did. LT [0:21:49]: …and just as a quick, quick course for you, basically the nurses were trained in, in the hospitals as basically slaves in the diploma program. And um, back in, during World War II, they started the collegiate program. And, um, one of the things about the collegiate program is that you did not have nearly as much clinical experience and believe you, me, those gals that came out with a diploma, the three-year diploma program, knew their stuff. And, um, uh, then, um, a gal from Columbia working on her doctorate dissertation and I can't come up with her name right now, said ‘you know, we �should, we should make nursing available to married women and to people who don't have the money to go on to college.’ And she developed the two-year associate degree program for nursing. And there had always been a one-year practical nurse program. And then there's also the six-week certified nursing assistant’s program. And it's very confusing. And one of the things that happened was with the baccalaureate program, although they would promote us faster and RN licenses, and an RN license. So, whether you had a three-year education, or two-year education or a four-year education, the, the, the pay scale was the same. And I don't, I don't know how it is now, because of course I haven't been in hospital nursing. The pay scale is, it was entirely different at the teaching level. EG [0:23:31]: Gotcha. Yeah, that’s really insightful. LT [0:23:33]: And now of course we've, we've gone on to nurse practitioners, midwives, and um, so the, there's a lot for you to kind of pick up on. EG [0:23:44]: Yeah, wow. Well, any other closing thoughts you can think of? LT [0:23:54]: I can't think of anything else. No. And you’ve got a lot of transcribing to do! EG [0:24:00]: (chuckles) That's true. Um, but it will be a pleasure to do this. This is a wonderful, wonderful interview. LT [0:24:06]: Well, we're, we're leaving Tuesday for Spain for six weeks, so I won't, I won't be available to talk to after this. EG [0:24:15]: Oh, ok, well it’s a good thing we got this in now. LT [0:24:18]: And that's what, that's what I had, I had alerted your professor to that fact and that's why he's probably been pushing on you. EG [0:24:27]: Thank you so much for participating. This will be a wonderful addition to our, our new kind of archive. LT [0:24:36]: Okay, well thank you for taking the time. EG [0:24:39]: Oh, and if you don't mind, uh, stating your name for the record. LT [0:24:41]: Ok, Laura Triebold, maiden name at Skidmore was Engel, Class of ’62. �EG [0:24:56]: Gotcha, wonderful. And this is Emma Griffin, interviewing on February 13th of 2019 at 12:56pm. So, I think we're good. Thank you so much. LT [0:25:07]: Thank you very much. And Goodbye. � Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Laura Triebold '62 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Emma Griffin '19 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 26:06 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jesse O'Connell Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Laura Triebold '62 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 13, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. COMPASSIONATE HANDS: Skidmore’s Nursing Program Language A language of the resource English Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio Interview Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. April 5, 2023 Nursing https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/25ba9d47c3d7809146c0f85637cd531e.jpg a0df1d8ba18ebd0fdf3d70d6277f01c8 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/daffdef37e8698bb9a91c1ab65947ce0.m4a 3e22d33bb8e02dd6d71e82d3446d0b84 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4b9dc3e63f8c6f646e2781be2cab639b.pdf ef0a4f7e8fb8a07611b4554564f6bb8e PDF Text Text Interview with Patricia Poirier by Sandy Welter, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, February 14, 2024. SANDY WELTER: This is Sandy Welter. I am here interviewing Pat Poirier for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project. It is Monday, February 19th, 2024 and we are in the Scribner Library, room 222. Good morning, Pat. PAT POIRIER: Good morning. SW: Before we start talking about your work at Skidmore, tell us about where you were born, where you grew up. PP: I was born right here in Saratoga. My parents had moved back from California, where my brother and sister were both born, because my grandparents were here. And so, I was born here. I was raised in Schuylerville and I live across the street from the house I grew up in. So, I'm a native and I haven't moved very far. SW: And so, as a native Saratogian, how did you come to begin working at Skidmore? PP: My sister-in-law worked in Dining Services forever and a day. We were talking and she suggested that I apply for a job here, and I did. And they were, at that time, doing the Wide Horizon Campaign. It was 1979. First of all, before that, I worked in the President's Office for Joe Palamountain for a couple weeks. They had been traveling, and Nancy Glass was his secretary. And she was out on leave for whatever reason, so they needed somebody to help catch things up before they came back from wherever they had traveled to. So, I worked there for a couple weeks. And then Wide Horizon Campaign was going on, and somehow or other my resume ended up in what at that time was called External Affairs with Nancy Lester. She was the class of '58, and she was Assistant Director. Anyway, and that's how I ended up here. And I was temporary for a couple years, and then I think they forgot that I was a temporary employee. And I got pregnant and I called and I said, "Can I come back to work? I'm still temporary." And they didn't realize it, so they made my position a permanent position, made it retroactive to 1979 when I started. That was 1983, so they made it retroactive to 1979, and I got my benefits. That's how that ended up. SW: When you first went to work there, it was not called Advancement at the time. PP: It was called External Affairs at that time. SW: Okay, and your job when you first got there was to do what? PP: The Wide Horizon Campaign was going on, so what I did was prepare committee kits. The Page 1 of 6 �Development officers would go out and create committees in various areas of the country to solicit alumni in that area. And there were kits to help them do that. We had to put together biographical information on the people in that area and include gift envelopes. The Development officers hosted kickoffs, which were alumni gatherings to get as many people from that area together and explain why Skidmore was raising money for the Wide Horizon Campaign. It's different from the Annual Fund. It's a capital campaign. Skidmore was still building this campus at the time. So I did that kind of stuff. And then when the Development officers came back, I updated records on alumni, any information that came in. We found a lot of people at that time. There wasn't a real good system for keeping track of our alums and parents and everybody. Actually, the Wide Horizon started that process in vigor to get it going. SW: What was the purpose of the Wide Horizon Campaign? What was their goal? PP: When I started here they broke ground for the Phys Ed Center. They still had dorms to build and classroom buildings. And the trustees had said, "You can build, but you have to have 50% of the money in hand before you can break ground for a building." That was the rule. I don't know if they are still following that rule, but that's back then. So the goal for that campaign was $12.4 million dollars, which seems like nothing compared to what the campaigns are now. Because the whole campus was not all here on North Broadway, I believe, in 1979 there were still some students over on Union Avenue. And I don't believe any classes were there, but they were still housed over there, some of them. So the goal was to get the dorms built, I think. I don't remember that. SW: And the campaign was successful? PP: Oh, yes. It went over the goal, but I don't remember the dollar number. But yes, it was successful. SW: So from that first campaign experience, how did your job evolve? And when did this department, this area, become renamed Advancement? Do you remember? PP: I don't remember it when it became Advancement. I want to say when I started, David Long was Vice President. And then I think Dick Seaman was my next Vice President. And I believe he changed the name to Advancement, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure on that one. SW: So when you came to Skidmore, you were working under President Palamountain. PP: President Palamountain, yes. SW: So you've worked under how many other presidents during your tenure? PP: I think there were five. It was Joe Palamountain, David Porter, Jamie Studley. Who came Page 2 of 6 �after her? Did Phil come after her? Phil Glotzbach, so there were only four. I retired before Mark Connor came. Yeah, and Joe Palamountain, he was fun to work with. SW: What makes you say that? Can you give us an example? PP: When I first came here, I was 21 and I was scared to death of a PhD, but he and Anne were just the most welcoming people. One time when I had moved over to Advancement, we had a wall that separated our office from the Provost, and Joe came in and talked to the Provost a lot. We had been blowing bubbles over the wall, and I said to the girl on the other side, "You're going to get me in trouble. Stop blowing bubbles. Stop blowing bubbles!" And I stood up on a chair and looked over, and it was Joe Palamountain blowing bubbles over the wall, and he was laughing. Oh my God, he was laughing. I said "Well, I guess he can't get me in trouble." He was just a sweetheart. I loved all the Presidents, actually. SW: What a great story! So talk a little bit about some of the changes in your job over the years. Did you see your job changing in some ways? PP: I guess it changed a couple times. I always helped. There was another person in my original position, of course. I moved around not by choice, but they moved me around to work for various Development officers. I had to call and make appointments for them or whatever else, make their travel arrangements. I did all of that for a while, but I really did not enjoy that. When the person who had my position retired in 1990, Nancy Lester slipped me right back into it. Back then, I guess you didn't have to do a whole big to-do, advertise, or whatever. She slipped me right into it, and I really enjoyed it because we went from doing address changes on paper and mailing them out and getting them back and having to file what we called PRC cards, which were permanent record cards to computerization then to the next computerization. Everything was instant instead of two weeks out. SW: Tell us about Nancy Lester. PP: Nancy Lester was the class of '58. She graduated in May and started working here in June. And I think she was here about 30 years. Personally, she could be tough, demanding in how she wanting things done, but I always thought she was very fair. She was one of my best supervisors, really. I really enjoyed working for her. SW: Could you give us the title of the position that you held and maybe a little overview of the work? PP: My position technically was called Coordinator of Biographical Records. My main purpose was to keep track of all the alums. They would call me when they moved, changed jobs, got married, got divorced, passed away. I didn't write the obituaries, but I did all the biographical collection of what they did through their lifetime when they passed away so that the alumni news editor could write up an obituary for Scope. That's when we had Scope and class newsletters all the time. Also, I had quite a list of people, until I retired, Page 3 of 6 �that formerly worked here that wanted to know, especially the ... What do you call them, the person who gets people to put us in their will? I forget what they are called. I can't remember, but they wanted to know if one of their alums had passed away. A lot of times, gift officers and other Skidmore people would go to funerals. I went to a couple funerals because I had known the alums for years and had contacted them often. We represented the College by going to the funerals. I did all of that. I did it for parents in the summertime. I put all the incoming students and their parents on the database all summer long because we solicit the parents also, or corporations. Any biographical information came through me. SW: What would you consider some of your major successes or your contributions to Skidmore? PP: We have a bunch of alumni that we couldn't find. We called them lost alumni. I felt towards the end of my career, with the advent of more computer search engines, that they were out there and we could find them. I felt really good that we got our percentage of lost alumni down to less than 10% out of however many we have now. That's not bad and a major success. I am also proud of my diligence to keep track of alumni and the connection I made with a lot of them. They knew me, especially the older ladies who went back and forth to Florida in the wintertime. We call them snowbirds. They would call me. I had a couple I had to call when I retired and say, "I'm leaving now. You'll just have to call the main office number now. You don't have to worry about it. It'll happen automatically, but if you feel better calling" ... And I still keep in touch with a lot of my friends. I have one student worker who worked for me just for a year, but we're still friends. She graduated in '93, and we still get together occasionally. And a couple Board members. Bill Ladd, he's a very close friend, was right there when my husband passed away. He was on the phone, one of the first. He's a Ladd. I just want to say. I knew his grandmother. SW: Yes, Skidmore is like a family, and you were feeling very much part of the family. PP: Yes, exactly. SW: That's wonderful. We talked a little bit about challenges. Any struggles that you felt or maybe even the changes you've seen over the years that you've been at Skidmore? PP: The biggest challenge was when we converted databases. I had to speak up about things that I kept track of that I felt had to be converted somehow and into the new system. I really fought to be a part of the team that did the mapping and converting of data from one database to another. I think we did three software changes while I was here. That was my big thing. I was so protective of my records and I wanted them to get transferred properly. We talked it out and figured out where to put things, and it worked. Then of course afterward, as time went on, these conversions were smoother. Then you had to go in and straighten things out a little bit afterwards. SW: Right. Your work environment, where you worked in Advancement changed during the Page 4 of 6 �course of your tenure, I think. Where were you first housed? Then wherePP: We were on fourth floor, Palamountain, which was the best place in the world to work. We had the President's office. We had the Registrar's office. We had Financial Aid. Plus we had the interaction with the students because they were always in the hall. We just loved fourth floor Palamountain, but we outgrew it. Because as the College grew, we had more people. We had to get more Development officers, so we moved over to North Hall and then eventually the Alumni office. That section moved over to Colton House to give us more room, and then they added on a section in the back of North Hall. We were supposed to be there temporarily, but I think they're still there. So it hasn't moved. SW: Yes. Your fondest memories? We mentioned a little. PP: My fondest memory is a reunion. Even last year was the first year that I was able to get back on Saturday to the reunion parade and the alums. I love them, especially the older ones. Like I say, I knew Helen Filene Ladd. She was class of '22. Again, I was 22, so it was 1982. I was working her reunion, and a couple kids went down to the airport to pick her up and lost her luggage. So she's standing there at the desk. I didn't know who she was. Registration was at Case Center at the desk, and she's standing there. I said, "May I help you?" And she said, "I'm Helen Filene Ladd, and they lost my luggage. Oh my goodness, they're making a big to-do about it.” She was just a sweetheart, but the older ladies, they're just so happy to come back here, so proud of the College, the whole nine yards. And they always remembered us, those of us who worked there. I just loved working the reunions. It was long hours, a long weekend, but it was great. SW: Is there anything else that you would like to add, any other reflections, any influential people you might want to mention that you worked with over the years? You mentioned the presidents. You mentioned the students and the alums, some of your colleagues, like Nancy Lester. Anything else you would like to add to round out the picture of your life at Skidmore? PP: I was very fortunate to work with terrific Vice Presidents. All of them had their own personalities. I was especially close to David Long up until he passed away. I still, actually last week, had lunch with his wife. And I've kept in touch with Chris Hook, who was one of my Vice Presidents. Michael Casey, I think was. No, he wasn't my last Vice President. Sean Campbell was, but Michael Casey, such a tragic loss. Really sweet guy, great to work for. Skidmore has a talent for hiring great people, really great people. Like I say, I got along with most of the Presidents. I'll just put it that way, to put it diplomatically. But I love Phil, and Mark seems to be wonderful. At our retirement events, he's just so welcoming. I just learned a lot about fundraising, about keeping track of money. I now happen to be the financial secretary at my church, and I often say, "You can't do this. You have to do it this way," just because of what I learned here, even though it's a much smaller organization. But I learned a lot about the fundraising aspect of private institutions and nonprofits, and it's amazing. Page 5 of 6 �SW: And finally, you've continued your relationship with Skidmore through the RetireePP: The Retiree Initiative Program Group. SW: Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing there? PP: I'm just part of the group, but it's staying connected. I kind of worried when I left that I would lose touch. I was here 41 years. It was my life; Skidmore saw me through every major event in my life - my mother passing away, my father passing away, my husband passing away. Skidmore was there. We were so close and such a family and they kept me going. I just said, "I don't want to lose out on being a part of Skidmore." So being on RIPG, it forces me ... I'm very much a homebody, so it forces me to participate. I come to all the programs that interest me that are here. I plan the wine, cheese, and chat. I took that over when somebody else didn't want to do it anymore. That is for welcoming the retirees from the past year, and anybody else can come. Actually, Phil is going to speak this year on that. We also have a grant program for retirees as they have projects that they work on. I'm not really clear on this, but I believe even if they volunteer someplace and this place needs money for a special project, we will grant them money. Phyllis Roth, I didn't know this, and I was in the Advancement office, but Phyllis Roth left a grant for retirees' projects. So we have a budget every year that we can use for grants to support retiree initiatives. If we want to take a trip, part of that is subsidized through her grant. And it's just nice. What I like is I get to meet people that, like you, I talked on the phone, but we're all equals. I'm not just one of the people keeping track of everything. We're professors. We're administrators. We're support staff. There's a nice mix on the committee, and we all are working. It's just wonderful. It's a wonderful experience. I love being on that committee. SW: Well, we're so pleased that you were able to participate in our oral history project, Pat, and your insights are invaluable. They're really wonderful. What year did you start at Skidmore? PP: I started January 15th, 1979, which was my birthday. And I retired January 15th, 2020, which was very fortuitous for me, because where I live, at that time, we did not have high speed internet. I don't know what I would have done because I couldn't work from home. So I don't know. Something told me I had to retire at the right time, so I did. So, I had exactly 41 years. SW: Wonderful. We thank you so much and we wish you the very best. We look forward to seeing you more at the RIPG programs. Thank you, Pat. PP: Well, thank you. I'm so thrilled to be asked to do this. I really, really am. Page 6 of 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sandy Welter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patricia Poirier Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 25:51 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit April 14, 2024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Patricia Poirier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 14, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Patricia Poirier came to Skidmore in 1979 as a support staff member in the President’s Office and retired as the Coordinator of Biographical Records in the Office of Advancement in 2020.  In her 41 years at Skidmore, Pat worked under four Presidents, saw the College move fully to the North Broadway campus, worked on the Wide Horizons Campaign, and developed lasting relationships with students, faculty, staff, and especially alumni.  She helped implement several of the College’s data management upgrades for the Office of Advancement and left that office with a well-organized and thorough system of contacts for students, parents, and alums, an invaluable resource for future Presidents, Development officers, reunion coordinators, and alumni.   Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1e03d17a3d411608461e960120b47c22.jpg 4a2d67e662611a0ff5bdfc1db752fcb7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/88a137a534591b2015e726f027e56e66.mp3 00ba2c6004cb218f70b37a40d39bb7ef https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/635494370061e61f23bb5b61718bc7fb.pdf 6530dd4fd74e4e2a0884173733318118 PDF Text Text Ari  Bogom-­‐Shanon:  Ok,  if  you  wouldn't  mind  just  stating  your  name?       Parker  Diggory:  My  name  is  Parker  Diggory.       ABS:  And  your  title.       PD:  I'm  the  director  of  Religious  and  Spiritual  Life  at  Skidmore  College.       ABS:  Great,  thank  you.  So  we're  here  on  February  16th  in  Parker's  office  at   Skidmore.  So  I'd  like  to  just  start  off  by  asking  about  your  connection  to  Skidmore   College  and  where  that  started  and  what  you  do  here  now.         PD:  Sure,  so  my  connection  to  Skidmore  college  is  really  life  long,  both  of  my  parents   taught  here,  my  father  taught  here  for  I  don't  know,  three  decades  or  more,  and  so  I   knew  the  campus  from  my  earliest  memories.  I  went  to  summer  camp  here  one   summer,  I  had  one  of  my  first  jobs  here  when  the  Tang  opened,  working  there.  Yeah   so  I've  been  connected  to  the  community  in  a  number  of  ways,  coming  to   performances,  things  like  that.  I  took  classes  here  while  I  was  in  high  school  as  a   special  student,  and  then  when  I  left  for  college  and  grad  school  and  all  of  that  I   didn't  have  much  of  a  connection  to  the  campus  for  about  fifteen  years  I  would  say.   And  then,  just  three  years  ago  I  came  back  to  take  on  this  position,  at  first  part  time   and  then  full  time,  and  now  like  I  said  I'm  the  director  of  Religious  and  Spiritual  Life   and  that  means  that  I  work  with  other  offices  in  Campus  Life  and  Engagement  and  in   Student  Affairs  to  support  the  students  primarily  but  really  the  whole  campus  in   their  religious  life,  in  their  search  for  spiritual  connection,  in  their  growing   awareness  of  religion  in  general  in  the  world.               ABS:  Great,  thank  you.  That's  a  bit  about  your  connection  to  Skidmore,  now  I'm   wondering  if  you  can  talk  a  bit  about  your  connection  to  Saratoga,  focusing  on  faith-­‐ based  communities  or  if  there's  like  a  faith-­‐based  journey  that  brought  you  to  this   particular  position  here.         PD:  Sure,  so,  again  born  and  raised  in  Saratoga  Springs.  Um,  went  to  public  schools   here  and  grew  up  in  the  same  church  that  I'm  actually  attending  now,  which  is  the   Presbyterian  New  England  Congregational  Church  on  Circular  Street  in  Saratoga.   And,  it  wasn't  a  very,  hm,  all-­‐encompassing  kind  of  church  life,  where  everything   you  do  and  everything  your  family  does  is  sort  of,  is  connected  to  that  community,   but  it  was  certainly  very  big  in  my  life.  We  went  to  church  a  lot  of  Sundays,  at  least   during  the  school  year.  We  did  volunteer  work  with  them.  That's  where  I  went  to   youth  group  and  went  on  trips  and  so  that  really  was  my  forming—my  formational   community  in  a  lot  of  ways.  It's  where  a  lot  of  my  strongest  friendships  developed,   in  terms  of  you  know  when  I  was  a  teenager,  the  people  who  I  still  speak  to  now  as   an  adult  from  my  childhood  a  lot  of  them  are  people  I  knew  through  church.  And   then  also  that  meant  that  other-­‐-­‐that's  how  I  got  to  know  some  other  religious   �communities.  There  were  some  interfaith  things  that  happen  or  ecumenical  things.   That's  how  I  got  to  know  the  rabbis  at  Temple  Sinai,  because  our  congregation   would  do  things  together,  or,  you  know  there  was  usually  a  Thanksgiving  kind  of   multi-­‐faith  prayer  and  just  event,  community  event,  that  would  happen  and  there   would  be  different  religious  communities  represented  there.  Yeah  so  that,  and  they,   the  church  that  I  was  raised  in,  like  I  said  it's  Presbyterian  and  Congregational  which   are  two  denominations  and  I  personally  am  part  of  the  Presbyterian  denomination   and  that  eventually  became  a  path  for  me  in  terms  of  my  professional  development   in  that  I  went  to  seminary  and  I  am  in  a  sort  of  long,  scenic  route  towards  ordination   in  that  church.               ABS:  You  talked  a  little  about  coming  back  to  the  same  church  community  when  you   came  back  I  was  wondering  if  you  could  expand  on  what  it  was  like  to  come  back  to   this  community  fifteen  years  later.         PD:  Wow,  yeah,  in  many  ways  it  was  just  wonderful  to  be  able  to  come  back  to  my   home  church  community  that  it's,  even  while  I  was  gone  I  would  come  back  for   holidays,  or  if  I  just  happened  to  be  in  town  over  a  weekend  I  would  go  to  church.   The  congregation  helped  support  part  of  my  education,  you  know,  this  was  who  I   kept  in  touch  with  so,  in  some  ways  I  had  never  completely  left.  But,  I  would  say,  I   guess  if  there  was  anything  challenging  about  it,  it  was  that  I  had  grown  in  my  faith   journey  in  ways  that  I  was  a  little  worried  wouldn't  fit  in  to  my  home  church.  That,   our  church  is  known  for  a  really  broad  diversity  of  theological  beliefs  and,  I  just,  I   didn't  have  the  beliefs  as  I  when  I  was  younger  which  it  to  be  expected  but  I  just   wanted  to  make  sure  that  I  was  still  gonna  fit  in  and  they,  they're  so  accepting  of  so   many  beliefs  that  I  knew  intellectually  that  that  would  be  fine,  but  there's  still  that   nervousness  of,  if  I  don't  feel  like  this  is  my  home  church  now,  like  what  would  I   even  do,  because  it's  where  my  parents  go.  I'm  connected  to  so  many  families  there,   if  I  all  of  a  sudden  started  going  to  say  the  Methodist  Church  or  the  Episcopalian   Church  like  people  would  have  questions.  And,  I  never  seriously  considered  not   going,  but  there  were  times  where  I  thought,  if  I  had  moved  to  this  town  as  an  adult   and  had  never  gone  to  any  of  the  churches  in  town,  is  this  the  congregation  I  would   end  up.  And  I  honestly  don't  know.  I  think  it  would  be,  just  because  it's  unique  in  a   lot  of  ways  in  this  town  and  has  a  lot  things  I  look  for,  but  it  was  an  interesting   question  to  think  about.  And  in  other  ways  it's  just  been  good  to  get  back  and  to   church  life  and,  you  know,  I  ended  up  being  nominated  for  the  board  of  the  church   and  church  leadership  so  it's  a  very  different  role  than  I  had  before,  where  I'd  still   get  treated  a  little  bit  as  one  of  the  kids  of  the  church  but  I'm,  I'm  treated  as  an  adult   and  as  a  leader  and  with  expectations  and  responsibilities  which  are  different,   which  I  value.               �ABS:  Thanks  for  sharing.  So  I  think  this  is  maybe  a  little  of  a  transition  into  Skidmore   and  what  that  role  is  like  but  I'm  wondering,  for  you  coming  to  Saratoga  was  really   coming  home  to  you  community  and  you  talked  about  how  we  practice  [sic]  is  so   much  bound  up  with  how  we  grew  up  and  what  communities  we  grew  up  in,  and  for   a  lot  of  people  coming  to  Skidmore  they're  leaving  their  home  communities.  So  I'm   wondering  if  you  thought  at  all  about  that  kind  of  relationship  of  working  with  a   bunch  of  students  here  who  are  leaving  their  home  communities  and  for  you  it's   coming  back  to  your  community  and  if  that  influences  your  role  here.       PD:  Mhm.  Sure,  I  think  it  does.  I  think  one  would  be  I  try  and  use  the  fact  that  I  do   know  this  community  really  well,  this  Saratoga  community  as  a  way  to  connect   students  not  just  by  which  denomination  they're  looking  for  or  you  know,  the  name   of  the  tradition  they're  looking  for,  but  sort  of  getting  to  know  the  personality  of  the   student  and  the  personality  of  the  congregation,  and  being  able  to  say,  you  know,  I   think  you're  really  gonna  like  this  leader,  or,  you  know,  there  are  some  folks  who  go   to  this  particular  service  that  are  looking  at  the  same  questions  that  you're  asking.   And  so,  part  of  it  is  that,  and  I  don't  think  it's  necessary  to  do  my  role  to  have  that   sort  of  historical  knowledge,  but  I've  certainly  tried  to  use  it  that  way.  And  then  the   other  bit  is  that  I  have  to  rely  on  my  own  college  experience  where  I  wasn't  in   Saratoga  Springs,  to  relate  a  little  bit  more  to  what  the  students  are  coming  in  with.   So,  I  went  to  college  in  Middlebury,  Vermont,  and,  you  know,  they  don't  have  a   Presbyterian  church  there  and  so  I  found  the  next  best  thing  for  me  which  was   actually  a  Congregational  Church,  and  I  looked  up  the  worship  times  and  I  went.  I   was  one  of  the  only  students  who  did,  sometimes  my  sister  came,  she  was  at  the   same  school,  and  that  was  it.  And  I  realized  only,  you  know,  months  later  who  else  at   the  school  might  have  some  of  my  similar  religious  beliefs.  That  I  didn't,  I  didn't  find   my  kind  of  on  campus  religious  community  in  some  ways  ever,  but  even  a  small  part   of  it  I  didn't  find  for  a  while.  And  so  I  try  and  hold  on  to  that  experience  and  fill  in   some  of  the  blanks  I  wish  had  been  filled  in  for  me,  as  somebody  who  didn't  really   know  the  landscape.  What  are  some  other  ways  that  influences  things  [pause].  I   think  part  of  it  is  trying  to  ease  the  transition  for  students  not  just  in  the  immediate   religious  sense.  Right,  I  can  reserve  prayer  rooms,  I  can  hold  services,  I  can  bring  in   leaders  and  what-­‐not,  but  there  are  home-­‐y  trappings  of  a  lot  of  people's  religious   lives  that  I'm  not  gonna  be  able  to  completely  replicate  but  I  can  try  and  offer  or   connect  to  or  get  a  taxi  to  or  something.  So  that's  part  of  it  to  is  just  thinking  about   what-­‐-­‐and  asking  the  students-­‐-­‐what  feels  like  home  to  you.  Because  sometimes   when  they're  asking  me  for  support  or  for  access  to  a  community,  you  know  they're   using  category  names  and  they're  using  tradition  names.  But  I  remember,  I  was   studying  abroad,  I  did  a  gap  semester  after  high  school  and  I  was  in  Jamaica,  and  I   went  church  with  my  host  family,  but  sometimes  I  would  go  to  a  church  that  was  a   little  more  like  the  one  I  grew  up  in.  And  I  walked  in  and  they  had  the  same  exact   brass  cross  on  the  altar,  and  I  almost  cried.  And,  it's  that  kind  of  thing  that  I  know   that  will  help  students,  and  it  might  just  take  a  while  to  figure  out  what  that  is.  To   find  that  familiarity.  So  I'm  not  sure  if  that  answers  the-­‐-­‐your  questions.             �   [00:11:25.000]       ABS:  Yeah,  definitely,  wow.  Yeah  it  is  almost  that  search  for  home  that  students   come  in  looking  for.         PD:  Mhm.       ABS:  Ok,  so  you've  been  here  three  years?       PD:  Something  like  that.       ABS:  Something  like  that?  Which  is  pretty  recent.  Can  you  talk  a  little  bit  about  your   first  impressions  of  the  religious  community  at  Skidmore?       PD:  Hm.  Well  I  admit  that  I  had  sort  of  made  some  assumptions  based  on  my   experience  at  a  somewhat  similar  college  and  my  knowledge  of  Skidmore.  So,  I   probably  didn't  come  in  with  a  completely  open  mind  in  terms  of,  just,  what's  my   first  impression,  you  know  completely  blank  slate  kind  of  thing.  It  was  more  that  I   kind  of  assumed  that  it  would  be,  not  the  most  overtly  religious  campus,  that  it   would  be,  um,  you  know  that  religions  that  are  generally  minorities  in  society  would   probably  be  a  little  more  organized  just  by  necessity,  that  we  would  have  a  lot  of   students  who  were  maybe  interested  when  they  went  home  in  still  attending  a   service  or  connecting  with  a  tradition.  But  at  least  while  they  were  at  college  it   didn't  seem  like  a  priority.  And  so  that  was  true,  those  assumptions  were  proved   pretty  true.  I  think  my  impression  was  that  it  was  very  much,  [pause],  first  word   that  comes  to  mind  is  underground,  but  that  has  some  sort  of  like  purposeful  hiding   that  is  only  occasionally  true.  But  that  it  was  below  the  surface,  how  'bout  that,  that   the  religious  life  at  Skidmore  was  and  still  is  to  a  great  extent  something  that   happens  in  a  person  to  person  sort  of  way,  in  a  word  of  mouth  sort  of  way.  It's  not   the  first  thing  you  find  out  about  somebody,  it's  not  the  majority  of  the  events  that   are  advertised.  But  when  you  scratch  the  surface  it's  there.  And  so  part  of  my  job  is   figuring  out  how  much  of  that  under-­‐the-­‐surface-­‐ness  is  actually  fine  and  desirable   and  what  students  and  others  kind  of  want  and  it's  working  really  well  and  how   much  of  it  is  happening  simply  because  there  isn't  another  way.  Um,  what  else  was  I   struck  by.  That's  the  first  thing  that  comes  to  mind.               [00:14:13.783]       ABS:  This  is  a  bit  more  of  just  a  practical  question,  but  could  you  just  talk  a  little  bit   about  the  different  communities  that  are  here,  whether  it's  the  more  above-­‐the-­‐ surface  communities  or  any  below-­‐surface  communities  also?       �PD:  Sure,  so  in  terms  of  named  groups  we  have:  Hillel,  which  is  a  Jewish  student   organization,  broad  spectrum  in  terms  of  tradition.  Because  we  don't  have,  not  just   because,  but  we  don't  have  kosher  offerings  at  Skidmore  and  that  and  other  reasons   mean  that  we  don't  have  a  full  range  of  Jewish  traditions  represented  but  what  does   exist,  the  only  organized  group  at  the  moment  is  Hillel  for  them.  There's  Christian   Fellowship,  Skidmore  Christian  Fellowship,  which  is  a  chapter  of  InterVarsity   Christian  Fellowship,  which  is  a  national  and  sometimes  international  thing,  so  is   Hillel.  And  then  we  have  a  Newman  club,  which  is  for  Catholic  students.  That  has   been  from  semester  to  semester  more  and  less  active.  It's  quite  small,  one  of  the   primary  functions  is  finding  carpools  to  local  Masses,  so  it's  not  one  of  the  more   active  in  terms  of  programming  at  the  moment.  Then  when  I  first  arrived,  and  still,   we  have  Hayat,  which  is  a  cultural  affinity  group,  not  a  religious  affinity  group.  But  it   covers  the  Middle  East  and  South  East  Asia  and  so  they  will  do  cultural  events  that   are  also  religiously  connected  and  things  like  Holi  or  a  Lunar  New  Year's  celebration   sometimes,  although  there  are  also  other  groups  who  do  those.  Eid  dinners  for  the   Muslim  community.  So  that  also  depends  on  who's  in  charge  and  who's  interested  in   supporting  an  event,  but  they  function  in  a  lot  of  ways  independently  from  my  office   and  from  the  Office  of  Student  Diversity  Programming,  but  both  of  our  offices  do   work  with  them.  There's  a  Quaker  group  that  is  not  an  official  club  but  they  get   together  and  through  my  office  they  advertise,  they  meet  every  other  week  and  they   advertise  that  through  my  office  and  I  help  make  them  connections  with  members  of   the  local  Quaker  community.  There  are  bible  studies  that  are  connected  with   Christian  Fellowship  but  I  think  some  of  them  are  attended  by  folks  who  maybe   aren't  involved  in  the  club  more  broadly  but  are  interested  in  going  to  a  bible  study   that  maybe  their  friend  is  leading.  There  is  a  practicing  Zen  gathering  that  doesn't   necessarily  require  you  to  be  a  Zen  practitioner  and  to  identify  as  a  Zen  Buddhist  to   attend,  but  there  are  certainly  folks  who  attend  who  have  been,  who  do  identify  that   way,  both  from  the  community  and  the  faculty  and  every  once  in  a  while  some  of  our   students  as  well.  And  then  there  are  some  students  who  will  get  together  around  a   certain  holiday  or  something  like  that.  There  were  some  Hindu  students  last   semester  who  got  together  to  go  to  a  Temple  for  a  particular  holiday.  And  it  was  sort   of  under  the  auspices  of  my  office,  sort  of  under  the  auspices  of  Hayat.  It  will  sort  of   be  an  ad  hoc  group  for  a  specific  purpose  and  then  they  sort  of  will  dissolve  again.  I   feel  like  I'm  probably  forgetting  something  huge  right  now.  There  are  some  other   groups  that  include  spirituality  and  spiritual  connection  as  part  of  what  they  do  and   who  they  are,  but  they're  less,  I  wouldn't  call  them  affinity  groups  as  much  because   they're  going  to  have  a  much  broader  spectrum  of  beliefs  within  them  and  so,   there's  an  inspirational  choir  called  Rejoice,  and  for  many  of  the  folks  there  there's  a   spiritual  component  to  what  they're  doing  and  what  they're  singing  but  they  sing   songs  from  many  different  traditions.  There's  a  mindful  movement  club  of  students   that  do  everything  from  learning  modern  dance  movement  techniques  to  yoga  to,   um,  I  think  the  circus  club  has  done  some  things  with  them.  So,  again  some  of  the   folks  there  are  regular  yoga  practitioners  and  for  them  that  is  part  of  a  religious  and   or  spiritual  practice  but  it's  not  necessarily.  And  then  there  are  the  folks  who  come   to  the  Skidmore  mindfulness.  So  we  have  weekly  meditations  and  yoga  practices   and  reiki  and  things  like  that  that  students  aren't  required  to  or  the  rest  of  the   �community  is  not  required  to  claim  any  particular  tradition  for  nor  are  they  likely  to   but  they  can,  and  many  of  them  do  express  that  this  is  a  spiritual  thing  for  them.               [00:19:22.000]       ABS:  It's  a  pretty  full  list.       PD:  Yeah  [laughs].  Oh!  I  knew  I  was  gonna  forget  somebody.  When  I  started  talking   about  Hayat  I  said,  you  know  when  I  got  here  Hayat  was  doing  all  of  this  and  they   still  are,  but  in  the  past  year  there's  also  been  a  bigger  push  from  some  of  the   Muslim  students  to  actually  have  a  club  that  is  expressly  for  Muslim  students.  And   there's  been  interest  in  that  since  before  I  got  here,  but  our  students  are  so  involved   in  so  much  that  it  takes  students  who  aren't  just  interested  in  it  but  are  interested  in   taking  leadership  in  it.  And  so  there  are  some  students  who  have  started  the  process   of  making  an  official  club,  which  is  fantastic.  But  if  that  doesn't  happen  or  until  that   happens,  our  office  just  continues  to  work  with  some  of  the  Muslim  staff  and  faculty   to  support  the  Muslim  students  on  campus.               [00:20:12.000]       ABS:  Can  you  also  just  talk  a  little  bit  about  how  staff  and  faculty  are  present  in  your   office,  if  they  are,  if  they  have  a  relationship  to  these  student  groups?       PD:  Sure,  well  I  should  mention  my  staff  as  well  so,  there  are  three  professional  staff   and  then  a  kind  of  rotating  number  of  student  staff.  And  that  includes  a  coordinator   for  Jewish  Student  Life,  Martina  Zobel,  and  a  coordinator  for  the  Skidmore   Mindfulness  program  Jennifer  Schmid-­‐Fareed.  And  the  two  of  them  work  both  with   clubs  and  with  students  who's  needs  aren't  being  met  by  the  clubs,  or  who  just  want   to  do  things  that  expand  the  presence  of  religion  or  spirituality  or  interfaith  on   campus.  And  so,  the  three  of  us  are  the  staff  and  we  collaborate  with  a  lot  of  other   staff  in  terms  of  events.    I  mentioned  the  Office  of  Student  Diversity  Programming.   The  director  of  that  office  and  myself  we  oversee  the  Intercultural  Center  together.   So  we  try  and  make  sure  that  whenever  there  are  programs  that  are  more   automatically  assigned  to  one  of  our  offices  that  we're  thinking  more  broadly  about   how  the  work  of  our  offices  might  overlap  for  those  programs.  We  work  with  the   student  leadership  offices  and  their  staff  because  they  support  the  clubs  and  events   on  campus  and  that's  an  obvious  connection.  So  there  are  some  that  are  quite   obvious.  The  counseling  center  does  stuff  with  the  Mindfulness  program,  the   religious  studies  department  will  have  [sic]  us  promote  some  of  our  events  and  vice   versa,  so  there  are  some  obvious  ones.  And  then  beyond  that,  there  are  stu—er,   sorry,  there  are  staff  and  faculty  that  will  attend  some  of  our  offerings.  Most  of  the   events  that  we  do  are  open  to  staff  and  faculty,  so  they'll  come  to  Shabbat  dinner  or   �they'll  come  to  one  of  the  meditations.  This  week  we  did  an  Ash  Wednesday  service   and  I'd  say  there  were  maybe  thirty-­‐six  people  there  and  two-­‐thirds  of  them  were   students  and  the  other  third  was  probably  staff  and  faculty.  So  they,  there's  a  few.   It's  not  a  majority  by  any  sense,  it's  not  a  large  group,  but  there's  a  handful  that  do   get  involved  that  way  just  by  attending  and  participating.  And  then  there  are  some   who  get  involved  in  really  supporting  the  work  of  the  communities  and  so,  there  are   staff  and  faculty  who  don't  just  come  to  the  events  but  will  help  with  hiring  new   staff,  finding  new  advisors,  being  advisors  themselves.  And  sometimes  I  know  about   that  and  sometimes  I  learn  about  it  later.  You  know,  sometimes  there  are  staff  or   faculty  who  have  been  helping  students  get  to  church  for  years  and  I  don't  find  out   about  it  until  a  casual  conversation.  So,  yeah  some  of  it's  formalized  and  some  of  it's   very  much  about  some  of  our  staff  and  faculty  just  making  connections  and  finding   out  a  way  that  they  can  help  students  get  connected.  And  every  once  in  a  while   there's  a  collaboration  that's  a  little  less  expected  so,  I'm  trying  to  think  of  one  but,   you  know  there  have  been  partnerships  with  the  Tang  Teaching  Museum,  and  there   have  been  partnerships  with  different  academic  departments,  we've  worked  with   somebody,  actually  from  Documentary  Studies  Adam  Tinkle,  and  he  does  work  with   sound  and  we  do  work  with  sound  healing  and  things  and  so  there  are  some  neat   overlaps  of  some  of  that  work.  And  I  like  to  keep  a  sort  of  somewhat  secret  entirely   unofficial  list  of  staff  and  faculty  who  have  expressed  to  me  that  they're  willing  to  be   called  upon  for  certain  things.  So  if  there's  a  student  who's  coming  to  me  with   concerns,  especially  if  they're  from  a  tradition  that's  not  well  represented  in  the   Saratoga  area,  which  is  a  lot  of  them,  I  try  and  keep  a  list  of  which  staff  and  faculty  I   might  be  able  to  point  them  towards.               [00:24:27.000]       ABS:  Very  cool.  So,  you  just  said  that  there  are  a  lot  of  students  whose  faiths  might   not  be  represented  in  this  area,  but  I'm  wondering  if  you  can  talk  a  little  bit  about   what  connections  have  been  made  to  groups  in  this  area  and  Skidmore,  and  if  you've   seen  a  change  in  that?  Either  from  when  you  were  here  growing  up  or  from  being   here  for  three  years  and  working  in  this  position,  and  or  if  you  have  a  vision  for  that   going  forward,  in  terms  of  where  you  want  those  relationships  to  be  or  go.       PD:  Sure,  um,  hm.  How  to  start.  There  are  some  formal  connections,  so  the  local   reform  synagogue  Temple  Sinai,  their,  one  of  their  co-­‐rabbi's  Linda  Motzkin  does   have  an  official  role  with  us  as  a  High  Holy  Days  chaplain.  Before  that  she  worked   even  more  frequently,  or  as  a  more  permanent,  not  that's  not  right,  a  more-­‐-­‐she  had   a  larger  role  at  Skidmore  previously,  in  terms  of  Jewish  student  life.  And  stepped   back  a  little  from  that  but  we're  very  thankful  she  stayed  on  to  work  with  us  during   high  holy  days.  And  part  of  that  is  that  that  congregation  is  able  to  use  Skidmore   Campus  spaces  for  High  Holy  Day  services  where  the  numbers  would  be  too  much   for  their  space.  And  it  gives  our  students  the  gift  of  being  able  to  attend  services   both  on  their  campus  and  with  a  multi-­‐generational  faith  community.  Which  I  think   �is  really  wonderful.  So  that's  been  going  on  for  years  and  years  and  years.  The  other   connections  are  primarily  unofficial.  Although,  also  within  the  Jewish  community   the  Saratoga  Chabad  works  with  my  office  to  come  onto  campus  and  do  table   outreach  basically,  and  also  working  with  the  Jewish  student  community  a  little  bit.   And  then  there  are  churches  that  are  more  likely  to  attract  some  of  our  students.  So   for  instance  a  lot  of  the  students  involved  in  Christian  Fellowship,  or  at  least  a   decent  sized  group  of  them  will  carpool  all  to  the  same  church  on  Sunday  mornings.   And  that's  not  an  official  partnership  in  any  way  it's  just  a  little  bit  of  word  of  mouth   and  a  little  bit  of  common  traditions  and  so  that  happens.  With  the  Catholic  churches   there  are  two  parishes  in  town  and  I've  invited  priests  and  deacons  from  both  of   them  to  come  and  do  services  on  campus  and  so  that'll  be  a  wonderful  way  of   making  that  connection  happen.  But,  students  can  also  just  go  wherever  they'd  like.   And  so,  similarly  to  some  of  the  staff  connections  I  don't  know  sometimes  when   students  are  attending  services  in  town.  I  like  to  try  and  find  out  so  that  if  other   students  are  looking  for  someone  to  go  with  I  can  make  some  introductions.  And  I   think  that's  generally  the  same  as  when  I  was  growing  up,  though  I  certainly  wasn't   aware  of  religious  life  at  colleges.  It  wasn't  something  that  I  was  thinking  of  much   except  that  I  knew  the  chaplain  here  when  I  was  younger.  And  in  terms  of  what  I   want  to  see,  hyper-­‐locally  like  right  in  Saratoga  Springs,  I  do  want  to  get  to  know   more  and  more  of  the  communities  and  the  leaders.  A  lot  of  them  will  contact  me   about  events  and  I'll  try  and  promote  those,  but  there's  also  a,  I  have  the  sense  of,   I'm  also  feeling  a  protection  of  the  campus?  That  there  are,  unfortunately,  always   going  to  be  religious  groups  that  aren't-­‐-­‐that  don't  necessarily  have  our  students   best  interest  in  mind  or  that  bring  a  style  of  communication  that  is  aggressive  in  a   way  that  I  don't  think  a  majority  of  our  students  would  like.  And  so  because  of  that,   I've  been  hesitant  to  just  put  out  a  blanket  invitation  to  religious  groups  to  come  to   campus.  I  usually  wait  for  students  to  express  an  interest  in  a  particular  community   and  then  I  will  reach  out.  So  for  instance  with  the  local  Quaker  community.  You   know  they  come  onto  campus  but  because  there's  a  student  interest.  So  I  would  like   there  to  be  connections.  I  think  especially  there's  a  lot  of  potential  within  the   volunteer  work  and  social  justice  side  of  things.  A  lot  of  our  local  religious   communities  are  on  the  front  lines  of  working  with  immigrants  and  refugees  in  the   area.  They're  the  ones  that  make  sure  that  the  soup  kitchen  is  staffed  and  that  there   are,  a  lot  of  them  are  volunteers  at  the  homeless  shelters  and  so  I  think  there  are   ways  there  to  strengthen  already  existing  partnerships.  We  do  have  students   already  who  volunteer  with  all  of  those  programs.  I  think  we  could  do  it  more  and   we  could  do  it  more  specifically  with  our  religious  students.  And  then  beyond  that,   beyond  Saratoga  Springs  we've  had  a  good  experience  getting  students  to  one  of  the   mosques  for  some  of  the  Eids.  Or,  we  partnered  with  one  of  the  mosques  on  a   service  project.  And  that's  been  wonderful  because  there  are  plenty  of  colleges  and   universities  in  the  capital  district.  And  Skidmore's  small  little  group  of  students  is   not  going  to  be  their  biggest  population  of  young  adult  outreach,  but  it's  been  nice  to   still  make  those  connections  and  I  want  to  strengthen  that  as  well.  Yeah  it's   interesting  because  a  lot  of  religious  communities,  and  I'm  speaking  primarily  out  of   the  Christian  context  but  I  know  that  it's  not  that  different  in  other  contexts.  A  lot  of   religious  communities  are  feeling  a  need  to  hold  onto  young  adults  with  all  of  their   �might,  and  I've  been  on  the  leadership  of  communities  that  do  this  where  we,  we  see   young  adults  and  we  see  numbers.  We  see  people  to  keep  our  traditions  going.  And   it's  very  self-­‐-­‐it's  very  much  about  us  as  a  religious  community  wanting  to  not  die   out,  and  I  want  to  help  my  own  church  but  also  all  of  the  religious  communities  in   town  approach  Skidmore  students  with  a  much  more  giving,  a  much  more  outward   looking  purpose.  That  this  is  not  about  whether  or  not  we  get  to  say,  "hey  we've  got   seven  college  students  on  our  lists,  we're  not  gonna  die  out,"  or  "we're  really  cool   with  the  young  people,"  but  more  that  isn't  it  great  that  these  one  student  or  these   two  students  are  being  fed  by  this  ministry.  So  that's  something  I'd  like  to  see   happen.               [00:31:33.793]       ABS:  Thank  you  for  sharing.  That's  all  the  questions  I  have  but  if  there's  anything   you  want  to  add  that  you  felt  like  didn't  get  in  there?       PD:  I  think  one  of  the  things  I'd  like  to  see  both  on  campus  and  in  Saratoga,  and  I   think  there  are  ways  to  maybe  make  it  happen  as  a  campus  community  partnership,   is  more  engagement  across  ideological  lines  of  religious  communities.  For  example   you  show  up  to  certain  meetings  in  town  of  religious  leaders  working  on  a  particular   issue  and  you  can  sort  of  predict  who's  going  to  be  there.  And  it's  not  that  they're  all   the  same  religion  it's  that  you're  pretty  sure  they're  all  the  same  politics,  or  they're   all  the  same,  you  know  social  views  on  different  issues.  And  so  one  of  the  things   that's  great  right  now  that's  happening  is  two  of  the  churches-­‐-­‐so  the  church  where   the  freeze  shelter  is  hosted  where  Code  Blue  is  hosted,  Soul  Saving  Station,  is  very   different  from  the  church  that  I  attend,  but  the  church  that  I  attend  is  also  helping   out  Code  Blue  with  some  office  space  and  some  overflow  space  and  housing  people   when  Soul  Saving  Station  doesn't  have  enough  room.  And  those  two  churches  could   not  be  more  different  ideologically  or  theologically  and  still  both  be  called  Christian.   But  they  are  [laughs],  and  they're  both  doing  this.  And  I  think  that  kind  of   partnership,  and  that  kind  of  getting  to  know  each  other  could  be  happening  more  at   Skidmore  as  well  and  in  the  town  as  well,  so  that  we're  expanding  what  it  means  to   be  religious  for  people  who  have  doubts  about  their  opinions  on  what  it  is  to  be   religious.  Maybe  not  doubts  about  their  opinions,  doubts  about  people  who  are   religious,  or  doubts  about  people  who  are  religious  in  a  way  that  is  different  from   them.  So  not  necessarily  interfaith  cooperation  but  even  within  a  tradition  across   ideological  bounds.               [00:33:45.570]       ABS:  Well,  I  wish  you  luck  in  this  office       �PD:  Thank  you       ABS:  And  all  of  your  goals       PD:  Thank  you       ABS:  Thank  you  so  much  for  being  part  of  this  interview,  and  I'm  not  sure  when  it   will  go  up  but  I  will  email  you  the  link  when  it  does.           � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ari Bogom-Shanon Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Parker Diggory Location The location of the interview Parker's office in Case Center. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Ari Bogom-Shanon Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 06/03/2018 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Ari Bogom-Shanon: Ok, if you wouldn't mind just stating your name? Parker Diggory: My name is Parker Diggory. ABS: And your title. PD: I'm the director of Religious and Spiritual Life at Skidmore College. ABS: Great, thank you. So we're here on February 16th in Parker's office at Skidmore. So I'd like to just start off by asking about your connection to Skidmore College and where that started and what you do here now. PD: Sure, so my connection to Skidmore college is really life long, both of my parents taught here, my father taught here for I don't know, three decades or more, and so I knew the campus from my earliest memories. I went to summer camp here one summer, I had one of my first jobs here when the Tang opened, working there. Yeah so I've been connected to the community in a number of ways, coming to performances, things like that. I took classes here while I was in high school as a special student, and then when I left for college and grad school and all of that I didn't have much of a connection to the campus for about fifteen years I would say. And then, just three years ago I came back to take on this position, at first part time and then full time, and now like I said I'm the director of Religious and Spiritual Life and that means that I work with other offices in Campus Life and Engagement and in Student Affairs to support the students primarily but really the whole campus in their religious life, in their search for spiritual connection, in their growing awareness of religion in general in the world. ABS: Great, thank you. That's a bit about your connection to Skidmore, now I'm wondering if you can talk a bit about your connection to Saratoga, focusing on faith-based communities or if there's like a faith-based journey that brought you to this particular position here. PD: Sure, so, again born and raised in Saratoga Springs. Um, went to public schools here and grew up in the same church that I'm actually attending now, which is the Presbyterian New England Congregational Church on Circular Street in Saratoga. And, it wasn't a very, hm, all-encompassing kind of church life, where everything you do and everything your family does is sort of, is connected to that community, but it was certainly very big in my life. We went to church a lot of Sundays, at least during the school year. We did volunteer work with them. That's where I went to youth group and went on trips and so that really was my forming—my formational community in a lot of ways. It's where a lot of my strongest friendships developed, in terms of you know when I was a teenager, the people who I still speak to now as an adult from my childhood a lot of them are people I knew through church. And then also that meant that other--that's how I got to know some other religious communities. There were some interfaith things that happen or ecumenical things. That's how I got to know the rabbis at Temple Sinai, because our congregation would do things together, or, you know there was usually a Thanksgiving kind of multi-faith prayer and just event, community event, that would happen and there would be different religious communities represented there. Yeah so that, and they, the church that I was raised in, like I said it's Presbyterian and Congregational which are two denominations and I personally am part of the Presbyterian denomination and that eventually became a path for me in terms of my professional development in that I went to seminary and I am in a sort of long, scenic route towards ordination in that church. ABS: You talked a little about coming back to the same church community when you came back I was wondering if you could expand on what it was like to come back to this community fifteen years later. PD: Wow, yeah, in many ways it was just wonderful to be able to come back to my home church community that it's, even while I was gone I would come back for holidays, or if I just happened to be in town over a weekend I would go to church. The congregation helped support part of my education, you know, this was who I kept in touch with so, in some ways I had never completely left. But, I would say, I guess if there was anything challenging about it, it was that I had grown in my faith journey in ways that I was a little worried wouldn't fit in to my home church. That, our church is known for a really broad diversity of theological beliefs and, I just, I didn't have the beliefs as I when I was younger which it to be expected but I just wanted to make sure that I was still gonna fit in and they, they're so accepting of so many beliefs that I knew intellectually that that would be fine, but there's still that nervousness of, if I don't feel like this is my home church now, like what would I even do, because it's where my parents go. I'm connected to so many families there, if I all of a sudden started going to say the Methodist Church or the Episcopalian Church like people would have questions. And, I never seriously considered not going, but there were times where I thought, if I had moved to this town as an adult and had never gone to any of the churches in town, is this the congregation I would end up. And I honestly don't know. I think it would be, just because it's unique in a lot of ways in this town and has a lot things I look for, but it was an interesting question to think about. And in other ways it's just been good to get back and to church life and, you know, I ended up being nominated for the board of the church and church leadership so it's a very different role than I had before, where I'd still get treated a little bit as one of the kids of the church but I'm, I'm treated as an adult and as a leader and with expectations and responsibilities which are different, which I value. ABS: Thanks for sharing. So I think this is maybe a little of a transition into Skidmore and what that role is like but I'm wondering, for you coming to Saratoga was really coming home to you community and you talked about how we practice [sic] is so much bound up with how we grew up and what communities we grew up in, and for a lot of people coming to Skidmore they're leaving their home communities. So I'm wondering if you thought at all about that kind of relationship of working with a bunch of students here who are leaving their home communities and for you it's coming back to your community and if that influences your role here. PD: Mhm. Sure, I think it does. I think one would be I try and use the fact that I do know this community really well, this Saratoga community as a way to connect students not just by which denomination they're looking for or you know, the name of the tradition they're looking for, but sort of getting to know the personality of the student and the personality of the congregation, and being able to say, you know, I think you're really gonna like this leader, or, you know, there are some folks who go to this particular service that are looking at the same questions that you're asking. And so, part of it is that, and I don't think it's necessary to do my role to have that sort of historical knowledge, but I've certainly tried to use it that way. And then the other bit is that I have to rely on my own college experience where I wasn't in Saratoga Springs, to relate a little bit more to what the students are coming in with. So, I went to college in Middlebury, Vermont, and, you know, they don't have a Presbyterian church there and so I found the next best thing for me which was actually a Congregational Church, and I looked up the worship times and I went. I was one of the only students who did, sometimes my sister came, she was at the same school, and that was it. And I realized only, you know, months later who else at the school might have some of my similar religious beliefs. That I didn't, I didn't find my kind of on campus religious community in some ways ever, but even a small part of it I didn't find for a while. And so I try and hold on to that experience and fill in some of the blanks I wish had been filled in for me, as somebody who didn't really know the landscape. What are some other ways that influences things [pause]. I think part of it is trying to ease the transition for students not just in the immediate religious sense. Right, I can reserve prayer rooms, I can hold services, I can bring in leaders and what-not, but there are home-y trappings of a lot of people's religious lives that I'm not gonna be able to completely replicate but I can try and offer or connect to or get a taxi to or something. So that's part of it to is just thinking about what--and asking the students--what feels like home to you. Because sometimes when they're asking me for support or for access to a community, you know they're using category names and they're using tradition names. But I remember, I was studying abroad, I did a gap semester after high school and I was in Jamaica, and I went church with my host family, but sometimes I would go to a church that was a little more like the one I grew up in. And I walked in and they had the same exact brass cross on the altar, and I almost cried. And, it's that kind of thing that I know that will help students, and it might just take a while to figure out what that is. To find that familiarity. So I'm not sure if that answers the--your questions. [00:11:25.000] ABS: Yeah, definitely, wow. Yeah it is almost that search for home that students come in looking for. PD: Mhm. ABS: Ok, so you've been here three years? PD: Something like that. ABS: Something like that? Which is pretty recent. Can you talk a little bit about your first impressions of the religious community at Skidmore? PD: Hm. Well I admit that I had sort of made some assumptions based on my experience at a somewhat similar college and my knowledge of Skidmore. So, I probably didn't come in with a completely open mind in terms of, just, what's my first impression, you know completely blank slate kind of thing. It was more that I kind of assumed that it would be, not the most overtly religious campus, that it would be, um, you know that religions that are generally minorities in society would probably be a little more organized just by necessity, that we would have a lot of students who were maybe interested when they went home in still attending a service or connecting with a tradition. But at least while they were at college it didn't seem like a priority. And so that was true, those assumptions were proved pretty true. I think my impression was that it was very much, [pause], first word that comes to mind is underground, but that has some sort of like purposeful hiding that is only occasionally true. But that it was below the surface, how 'bout that, that the religious life at Skidmore was and still is to a great extent something that happens in a person to person sort of way, in a word of mouth sort of way. It's not the first thing you find out about somebody, it's not the majority of the events that are advertised. But when you scratch the surface it's there. And so part of my job is figuring out how much of that under-the-surface-ness is actually fine and desirable and what students and others kind of want and it's working really well and how much of it is happening simply because there isn't another way. Um, what else was I struck by. That's the first thing that comes to mind. [00:14:13.783] ABS: This is a bit more of just a practical question, but could you just talk a little bit about the different communities that are here, whether it's the more above-the-surface communities or any below-surface communities also? PD: Sure, so in terms of named groups we have: Hillel, which is a Jewish student organization, broad spectrum in terms of tradition. Because we don't have, not just because, but we don't have kosher offerings at Skidmore and that and other reasons mean that we don't have a full range of Jewish traditions represented but what does exist, the only organized group at the moment is Hillel for them. There's Christian Fellowship, Skidmore Christian Fellowship, which is a chapter of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, which is a national and sometimes international thing, so is Hillel. And then we have a Newman club, which is for Catholic students. That has been from semester to semester more and less active. It's quite small, one of the primary functions is finding carpools to local Masses, so it's not one of the more active in terms of programming at the moment. Then when I first arrived, and still, we have Hayat, which is a cultural affinity group, not a religious affinity group. But it covers the Middle East and South East Asia and so they will do cultural events that are also religiously connected and things like Holi or a Lunar New Year's celebration sometimes, although there are also other groups who do those. Eid dinners for the Muslim community. So that also depends on who's in charge and who's interested in supporting an event, but they function in a lot of ways independently from my office and from the Office of Student Diversity Programming, but both of our offices do work with them. There's a Quaker group that is not an official club but they get together and through my office they advertise, they meet every other week and they advertise that through my office and I help make them connections with members of the local Quaker community. There are bible studies that are connected with Christian Fellowship but I think some of them are attended by folks who maybe aren't involved in the club more broadly but are interested in going to a bible study that maybe their friend is leading. There is a practicing Zen gathering that doesn't necessarily require you to be a Zen practitioner and to identify as a Zen Buddhist to attend, but there are certainly folks who attend who have been, who do identify that way, both from the community and the faculty and every once in a while some of our students as well. And then there are some students who will get together around a certain holiday or something like that. There were some Hindu students last semester who got together to go to a Temple for a particular holiday. And it was sort of under the auspices of my office, sort of under the auspices of Hayat. It will sort of be an ad hoc group for a specific purpose and then they sort of will dissolve again. I feel like I'm probably forgetting something huge right now. There are some other groups that include spirituality and spiritual connection as part of what they do and who they are, but they're less, I wouldn't call them affinity groups as much because they're going to have a much broader spectrum of beliefs within them and so, there's an inspirational choir called Rejoice, and for many of the folks there there's a spiritual component to what they're doing and what they're singing but they sing songs from many different traditions. There's a mindful movement club of students that do everything from learning modern dance movement techniques to yoga to, um, I think the circus club has done some things with them. So, again some of the folks there are regular yoga practitioners and for them that is part of a religious and or spiritual practice but it's not necessarily. And then there are the folks who come to the Skidmore mindfulness. So we have weekly meditations and yoga practices and reiki and things like that that students aren't required to or the rest of the community is not required to claim any particular tradition for nor are they likely to but they can, and many of them do express that this is a spiritual thing for them. [00:19:22.000] ABS: It's a pretty full list. PD: Yeah [laughs]. Oh! I knew I was gonna forget somebody. When I started talking about Hayat I said, you know when I got here Hayat was doing all of this and they still are, but in the past year there's also been a bigger push from some of the Muslim students to actually have a club that is expressly for Muslim students. And there's been interest in that since before I got here, but our students are so involved in so much that it takes students who aren't just interested in it but are interested in taking leadership in it. And so there are some students who have started the process of making an official club, which is fantastic. But if that doesn't happen or until that happens, our office just continues to work with some of the Muslim staff and faculty to support the Muslim students on campus. [00:20:12.000] ABS: Can you also just talk a little bit about how staff and faculty are present in your office, if they are, if they have a relationship to these student groups? PD: Sure, well I should mention my staff as well so, there are three professional staff and then a kind of rotating number of student staff. And that includes a coordinator for Jewish Student Life, Martina Zobel, and a coordinator for the Skidmore Mindfulness program Jennifer Schmid-Fareed. And the two of them work both with clubs and with students who's needs aren't being met by the clubs, or who just want to do things that expand the presence of religion or spirituality or interfaith on campus. And so, the three of us are the staff and we collaborate with a lot of other staff in terms of events. I mentioned the Office of Student Diversity Programming. The director of that office and myself we oversee the Intercultural Center together. So we try and make sure that whenever there are programs that are more automatically assigned to one of our offices that we're thinking more broadly about how the work of our offices might overlap for those programs. We work with the student leadership offices and their staff because they support the clubs and events on campus and that's an obvious connection. So there are some that are quite obvious. The counseling center does stuff with the Mindfulness program, the religious studies department will have [sic] us promote some of our events and vice versa, so there are some obvious ones. And then beyond that, there are stu—er, sorry, there are staff and faculty that will attend some of our offerings. Most of the events that we do are open to staff and faculty, so they'll come to Shabbat dinner or they'll come to one of the meditations. This week we did an Ash Wednesday service and I'd say there were maybe thirty-six people there and two-thirds of them were students and the other third was probably staff and faculty. So they, there's a few. It's not a majority by any sense, it's not a large group, but there's a handful that do get involved that way just by attending and participating. And then there are some who get involved in really supporting the work of the communities and so, there are staff and faculty who don't just come to the events but will help with hiring new staff, finding new advisors, being advisors themselves. And sometimes I know about that and sometimes I learn about it later. You know, sometimes there are staff or faculty who have been helping students get to church for years and I don't find out about it until a casual conversation. So, yeah some of it's formalized and some of it's very much about some of our staff and faculty just making connections and finding out a way that they can help students get connected. And every once in a while there's a collaboration that's a little less expected so, I'm trying to think of one but, you know there have been partnerships with the Tang Teaching Museum, and there have been partnerships with different academic departments, we've worked with somebody, actually from Documentary Studies Adam Tinkle, and he does work with sound and we do work with sound healing and things and so there are some neat overlaps of some of that work. And I like to keep a sort of somewhat secret entirely unofficial list of staff and faculty who have expressed to me that they're willing to be called upon for certain things. So if there's a student who's coming to me with concerns, especially if they're from a tradition that's not well represented in the Saratoga area, which is a lot of them, I try and keep a list of which staff and faculty I might be able to point them towards. [00:24:27.000] ABS: Very cool. So, you just said that there are a lot of students whose faiths might not be represented in this area, but I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what connections have been made to groups in this area and Skidmore, and if you've seen a change in that? Either from when you were here growing up or from being here for three years and working in this position, and or if you have a vision for that going forward, in terms of where you want those relationships to be or go. PD: Sure, um, hm. How to start. There are some formal connections, so the local reform synagogue Temple Sinai, their, one of their co-rabbi's Linda Motzkin does have an official role with us as a High Holy Days chaplain. Before that she worked even more frequently, or as a more permanent, not that's not right, a more--she had a larger role at Skidmore previously, in terms of Jewish student life. And stepped back a little from that but we're very thankful she stayed on to work with us during high holy days. And part of that is that that congregation is able to use Skidmore Campus spaces for High Holy Day services where the numbers would be too much for their space. And it gives our students the gift of being able to attend services both on their campus and with a multi-generational faith community. Which I think is really wonderful. So that's been going on for years and years and years. The other connections are primarily unofficial. Although, also within the Jewish community the Saratoga Chabad works with my office to come onto campus and do table outreach basically, and also working with the Jewish student community a little bit. And then there are churches that are more likely to attract some of our students. So for instance a lot of the students involved in Christian Fellowship, or at least a decent sized group of them will carpool all to the same church on Sunday mornings. And that's not an official partnership in any way it's just a little bit of word of mouth and a little bit of common traditions and so that happens. With the Catholic churches there are two parishes in town and I've invited priests and deacons from both of them to come and do services on campus and so that'll be a wonderful way of making that connection happen. But, students can also just go wherever they'd like. And so, similarly to some of the staff connections I don't know sometimes when students are attending services in town. I like to try and find out so that if other students are looking for someone to go with I can make some introductions. And I think that's generally the same as when I was growing up, though I certainly wasn't aware of religious life at colleges. It wasn't something that I was thinking of much except that I knew the chaplain here when I was younger. And in terms of what I want to see, hyper-locally like right in Saratoga Springs, I do want to get to know more and more of the communities and the leaders. A lot of them will contact me about events and I'll try and promote those, but there's also a, I have the sense of, I'm also feeling a protection of the campus? That there are, unfortunately, always going to be religious groups that aren't--that don't necessarily have our students best interest in mind or that bring a style of communication that is aggressive in a way that I don't think a majority of our students would like. And so because of that, I've been hesitant to just put out a blanket invitation to religious groups to come to campus. I usually wait for students to express an interest in a particular community and then I will reach out. So for instance with the local Quaker community. You know they come onto campus but because there's a student interest. So I would like there to be connections. I think especially there's a lot of potential within the volunteer work and social justice side of things. A lot of our local religious communities are on the front lines of working with immigrants and refugees in the area. They're the ones that make sure that the soup kitchen is staffed and that there are, a lot of them are volunteers at the homeless shelters and so I think there are ways there to strengthen already existing partnerships. We do have students already who volunteer with all of those programs. I think we could do it more and we could do it more specifically with our religious students. And then beyond that, beyond Saratoga Springs we've had a good experience getting students to one of the mosques for some of the Eids. Or, we partnered with one of the mosques on a service project. And that's been wonderful because there are plenty of colleges and universities in the capital district. And Skidmore's small little group of students is not going to be their biggest population of young adult outreach, but it's been nice to still make those connections and I want to strengthen that as well. Yeah it's interesting because a lot of religious communities, and I'm speaking primarily out of the Christian context but I know that it's not that different in other contexts. A lot of religious communities are feeling a need to hold onto young adults with all of their might, and I've been on the leadership of communities that do this where we, we see young adults and we see numbers. We see people to keep our traditions going. And it's very self--it's very much about us as a religious community wanting to not die out, and I want to help my own church but also all of the religious communities in town approach Skidmore students with a much more giving, a much more outward looking purpose. That this is not about whether or not we get to say, "hey we've got seven college students on our lists, we're not gonna die out," or "we're really cool with the young people," but more that isn't it great that these one student or these two students are being fed by this ministry. So that's something I'd like to see happen. [00:31:33.793] ABS: Thank you for sharing. That's all the questions I have but if there's anything you want to add that you felt like didn't get in there? PD: I think one of the things I'd like to see both on campus and in Saratoga, and I think there are ways to maybe make it happen as a campus community partnership, is more engagement across ideological lines of religious communities. For example you show up to certain meetings in town of religious leaders working on a particular issue and you can sort of predict who's going to be there. And it's not that they're all the same religion it's that you're pretty sure they're all the same politics, or they're all the same, you know social views on different issues. And so one of the things that's great right now that's happening is two of the churches--so the church where the freeze shelter is hosted where Code Blue is hosted, Soul Saving Station, is very different from the church that I attend, but the church that I attend is also helping out Code Blue with some office space and some overflow space and housing people when Soul Saving Station doesn't have enough room. And those two churches could not be more different ideologically or theologically and still both be called Christian. But they are [laughs], and they're both doing this. And I think that kind of partnership, and that kind of getting to know each other could be happening more at Skidmore as well and in the town as well, so that we're expanding what it means to be religious for people who have doubts about their opinions on what it is to be religious. Maybe not doubts about their opinions, doubts about people who are religious, or doubts about people who are religious in a way that is different from them. So not necessarily interfaith cooperation but even within a tradition across ideological bounds. [00:33:45.570] ABS: Well, I wish you luck in this office PD: Thank you ABS: And all of your goals PD: Thank you ABS: Thank you so much for being part of this interview, and I'm not sure when it will go up but I will email you the link when it does. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Parker Diggory Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 16, 2018 Description An account of the resource Parker Diggory joined Skidmore as the Directory of Religious and Spiritual Life in 2016. She talks about her relationship to Saratoga Springs, religious life on campus, and religious life in town. Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bogom-Shanon, Ari '18 clubs Parker Diggory religious life https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/28c8f03200f07bebaa6b515412e95f1c.png 41571b7b59919dc01252c33228c4efb1 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/994451d3685fb16283fcb9841f979da1.m4a 713ee2d2a215d99a2eb5cc1ce2b46c3e https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2b623f3c21cfe626fbfeed1fa6d510d1.pdf 46201f3f4630b5238e37321f9e816d56 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Charles (Chuck) Joseph Years at Skidmore: 1985 – 2010 Interviewer: Rebecca Zosia Stern Location of Interview: Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY, 12866 Date of Interview: 2/19/2016 00:00:00 Header 00:36:00 Born in Pennsylvania 00:02:00 First experiences in music around church 00:04:00 Began college experience at West Virginia University 00:05:14 Began interest in Stravinsky in undergrad and went to University of Illinois where interest blossomed. 00:7:00 Benefits of trading ideas on a college campus 00:7:45 Attracted to Skidmore because of Liberal studies program 00:09:16 Changes in Liberal Studies curriculum that required thinking in cross disciplinary terms 00:10:50 Skidmore atmosphere was conducive to change, a lot of women faculty 00:11:40 Infusion with new faculty helped change curriculum 00:14:7 Describes city and Skidmore relationship 00:16:10 Introduced an ethnomusicology course with Professor Gordon Thompson 00:17:24 Conception of artists in residency program 00:20:30 Started to teach course with Isabella Brown on Stravinsky and Ballanchine 00:24:40 Beginning to plan a new music center that would become Zankel 00:34:50 Trying to capture music as it evolves to study academically 00:36:00 Discussing Stravinsky research with primary sources 00:44:00 Discussing later academic interests in Broadway musicals 0048:35 Daughter went to Skidmore as a dancer and studied American Studies 00:53:00 Skidmore fosters an environment to challenge conventional wisdoms 00:57:40 Interest in American Studies, and how culture changes � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/465c16c0fcaf7c37890a59338d3f22ed.pdf f5689bf7e983406d47bd87dbc930ed3d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rebecca Zosia Stern '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Charles Joseph Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:45 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit November 19, 2018 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charles Joseph Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 19, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Charles M. Joseph came to Skidmore in 1985 as a Professor of Music. During his years at the College, he served as Department Chair as well as Dean of the Faculty/Vice President of Academic Affairs. In this interview Joseph describes his work on expanding the music curriculum, the relationship between his Stravinsky scholarship and interdisciplinary teaching, and his vision for what was to become the Zankel Music Center. Academic Affairs Artists in Residence Board of Trustees Curriculum David Porter dean of faculty Diversity Filene to Zankel Hall (Transition) Interdisciplinary Collaboration Liberal Arts Education Liberal Studies Music Department Zankel Music Center https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/47a7889981e71eb43a5a5723ef9242e7.JPG 64102add601eded02eefcb26079d76a6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Principles of Documentary class visits the Print Room at the Tang Museum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 20, 2018 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource J. Dym https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/ee2f83d052dd4d1d698c7903a23353b3.JPG e13ec1a5761a4596c84469f0a533ed31 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/91bb9da13d4e9fdcf1345cfd4bc2ddf9.JPG 1e6d17ede0416a37855c99ad94a4e6b8 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f05125d32973588c21a4ade1f15a1cdb.JPG 0b08e2f7a2e6cb9cda1a57029cea21b7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Looking exercise, This Place, February 22, 2018 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/dc8457b646a265243303b1321f6cd612.JPG b989da8f568928b6bf9579dc0553953e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Looking exercise, This Place, February 22, 2018 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jordana Dym https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cc8e8c4080ab88f3d05c73da4f66aece.JPG 3e3fd475ff266533e073ffce6334b007 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4979f28a167cf960232917923a0dcaa2.JPG c3ee22cd6834e8d14e9ae4c8e629fd10 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6e45d5bfdf5fe3dc9cae82fb181db9ae.JPG 5441946470bc31d18cfc6f5080a97148 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/767058b21ee63ab17a80160ede5973e8.JPG 0dbb9d5e2eba57679cac421af7b65cfc https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1f94214338681303e3abff323649aec2.JPG dda9538fc1c44cca22eb31543b034f76 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Photographer Wendy Ewald meets with students in Principles of Documentary Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 27, 2018 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource J. Dym https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/ae60b245fcb241f8fd9e6bc777914a48.JPG 07d9cad10ed295ac95ee50bdfaec0517 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/669c9afc6e81316d626105f8c442e431.JPG 03b80764d761ff71203a005cae8f951f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6d415f820f52728c18c364f27ef01543.JPG c2ad497fc78d41f73748a926bbd4f0b5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rachel Seligman describing a cuator's role to students in Principles of Documentary Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 17, 2018 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource J. Dym Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data digital photograph Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. J. Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 24/04/2018 Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. February 20 and 22, 2018 April 17, 2018 Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Private Collection Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tang Visit - Principles of Documentary- Spring 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 20, 2018 February 22, 2018 February 27, 2018 April 17, 2018 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jordana Dym https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3bb3b206e5e381132acee1f308941cc9.jpg 59812d17c2a7db28f792ef6f44eb18d8 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/50b5060a3bd5d6785bbf64f21820e83e.JPG 98a2d119707b5a752f2087068fe2e172 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/70903b6bc1abac7c49d8b5947a2d2073.JPG 8fbb937b48ea226959e118886381dd19 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2507b6ca7f3524622634830965835149.JPG a5e26c02b791042f782016d6b7949bef Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Margot Hahn Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 19/4/18 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Photo essay Date Published (Numeric) Date the item was printed. This will be set as a date field, accommodating only numbers. The field will be able to handle single dates or date ranges. This will not display, but will be indexed and searchable. 4/19/18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Chapel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 2018 Medium The material or physical carrier of the resource. Photo essay Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hahn Margot Description An account of the resource The Chapel is a collection of photos taken in and around the Wilson Chapel on Skidmore's campus. Photographer Margot Hahn was influenced by elements of nature, shadows, still life, and the physicality of space and place. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Digital photograph Bibliographic Citation A bibliographic reference for the resource. Recommended practice is to include sufficient bibliographic detail to identify the resource as unambiguously as possible. Hahn, Margot, "The Chapel", Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Hahn MDOCS Principles of Documentary Skidmore College Spring 2018 The Chapel This Place https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6a2aaca0b71092b3ab59952ba4ca2e02.jpg 8857464b91000d9250f3a5614e230e48 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/47cad13878f7831d6787530186ceb62b.m4a 8da0d675e4e1df9363ea6741ea5f3528 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Li, Hongqiao, '18 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bosshart, Samantha Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs Preservation Foundation Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21 mins Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Li, Hongqiao, '18 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 08/03/2018 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data .m4a Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 64kbps Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound HL: So...Um, this is um an interview um to Samantha... SB: Bosshart. HL: Um, Bosshart. Um, and at the Saratoga Springs Preservation Foundation. This is um Ted, and the date is December 20th, and right now is 10:10. SB: February. HL: Yeah, February. Ok. So um, first, can you tell me something about yourself, like where are you from, um, like where do you live, and what is your job? SB: Um, I'm originally from Ohio, I was raised in Kent, Ohio, um, that's where I went to grade school, and high school, and upon graduating from high school, I went to Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana, where I got a Bachler’s of Arts in history and criminal justice. And then after that, I moved to Galveston, Texas, where I was fortunate enough to rehab some houses, and then also work for the Galveston Historical Foundation, which is the second, at the time, was the second largest local non-profit preservation organization, and from there, after five years, I've decided to um, pursue, um, a master's in historic preservation planning from Cornell University, which is what brought me to New York State. Um, I completed my course work with honors, um, but did not finish my thesis, and I um, after that, moved to Saratoga springs, where I took a position with Historic Albany Foundation, where I was the Director of Preservation Services, um, there for a year and a half, before I was fortunate enough to be offered the Executive Director position with the Saratoga Springs Preservation Foundation in 2008. So in June, I will have been here 10 years. HL: Nice. Um, so can you tell me more about your job, like your current job, like, like what is like a typical day for the work? SB: Well, um, there really isn't a typical day. Um, we, ah, the mission of the foundation is to preserve the architectural, cultural and heri... landscape, heritage of Saratoga Springs, and we do that through advocacy, technical assistance, education, and restoration. And um, so that involves lots of different things throughout the year. Um…For example today, I already helped homeowner providing him information on who could potentially, ah, repair his lotus stained glass window. Um, I, will be working with the First Baptist Church on a, actually, a grant to, I've helped them with a grant to restore their stained-glass windows and help to, help them continue to do fund raising for that project. We are also in the process of, um, helping, um, home owner, um, gets historic tax cutouts for a historic house on the west side, and we're in the mids of planning our historic homes tour, which is our largest fund-raising event of the year. Um, so any day can be different, ah, it really just depends on what the focus is at that immediate moment, ah, whether we're planning our summer Sunday strolls that take place every Sunday throughout the, the summer, working with volunteers, distinct home owners, providing comments on, preservation practice, um, to our city's Land Use Boards. For example, tomorrow night is the designer review commission meeting, so we'll be providing comments on several projects at that meeting tomorrow. Um, in particular, on the Rip Van Dam Hotel edition. So no day is typ, typical. Um, and we work on lots of different things, and we have lots of different committees, so we have a Fund Development Committee, and Advocacy Committee, an (a) Events Committee, Marketing Committee, Membership Committee, and Ad Hoc Saratoga Race Course Committee that reviews, um, plans for capital improvements of the oldest sports venue in the country, um, and, so there really isn't a typical day. HL: Yeah. Um, can you, um, tell me more about the foundation, just in general? Like what's its mission, or, like, wh, what kind of people do you usually, you know, like, involve with or, jus? SB: Well, I think I, I, I touched on the mission in the last question, which again was, um, the mission of the foundation is to um, promote, um, protect and preserve the architectural, cultural landscape heritage of Saratoga Springs, and as I said, we do that through advocacy, technical assistance, education, restoration. Um, the foundation was founded in 1977, so we are just completing our 40th year. When the foundation was founded, it was founded as an outgrowth of the Saratoga, um, plan for action. Ah, at the time in the 1970s, Saratoga Springs was not the community that you see today, was not a vibrant, thriving year-round destination. Um, downtown had vacant store fronts, it had vacant upper floors, the large beautiful homes on North Broadway was selling for 10,000 dollars. They were being sub-divided into apartments, the carriage houses being sub-divided. There were, um, so, ultimately, ah, the Saratoga Plan for Action, which is a traceries community let effort for community leaders, they chose to, um, enact a plan on how to revillize downtown, and one of that aspect of that plan, was to create a grant program to assist building home, building owners rehabilitate the facades and buildings downtown. Ah, it was identified that they needed it to be a separate organization from the city, and that organization was identified and established was the Saratoga Springs Preservation Foundation. So we initially oversaw, um, we, ah, 25 grands for buildings downtown, and then exchange for that grand funding. The foundation will receive a preservation easement for 25 years, meaning any exterior changes made to a building, the foundation would have to approve. So, um, since then we've involved with, um, establishing state and national historic districts, expanding local historic districts. Um, we've been involved with, um, restoring the Gideon Putnam Cemetery, the oldest burial ground in the city. We have, um, rehabilitated several buildings, ah, one on Clinton Place, one of the road houses is there, along with 117 grand former Adirondack Railway Station, ah, then we were also involved with New York State Main Street Grant for Beekman Street, which, ah, initially provided, ah, 190,000 dollars and funding, and, I always, it was for 3(ah)50,000 dollar building rehab grants and 4 for facade grants, um, each building owner had to match each grant, dollar for dollar. And in turn most exceeded that, and we believe that estimated, um, investment on Beekman Street as a result of that grant was nearly three quarters of a million dollars. So we were also involved with that. Ah, we were also, ah, involved with, when Skidmore College, ah, had the opportunity to move their campus to North Broadway, nearly 90 buildings, mostly, historic buildings on Union Avenue and the east side neighborhood were left vacant. The foundation, ah, worked with local realter John Roohan and others to, um, ensure that those buildings were gonna be rehabbed and, and, and made into single family residences or business or what have to make them survive, and we were fortunate enough that we did not lose any historic buildings as the result of that, um, then most recently, ah, our largest project was the Spirit of Life, an Spencer Trust Memorial restoration which we partnered with the city, for the national, nationally significant sculpture, and surround that was designed by Daniel Chester French, and Henry Bacon, who also designed the Lincoln Memorial. Charles Leavitt, Jr., who was landscape architect, he was also responsible for, um, many race tracks in the country, but he was responsible for re, large reconfiguration at the turn of the century, Saratoga Race Course, and we worked with the city to raise, um, 450,000 by, by the foundation the city matched that amount, and we were thankful to have the generosity of individuals, um, businesses, and ah, foundation support that effort. That project also was a total of 750,000 dollars, and its, um, rededication took place on centennial of the original dedication, which was June 26th, 1915. So those are some of the history of the foundation, um, I'm sure there's much more, but there's some highlights for you. HL: Um, so my next question is, what kind of difficulties do you think you have encountered, um, while preserving the architectures of Saratoga Springs? SB: Um, well, I, I can't speak to the early times, I think I'm sure times funding was a hard, um, was a challenge for building owners, and I think that's why it was so important for the foundation to assist home owners with the tax credit program, the federal tax credit program, so we're available then, I think, um, the Historic Preservation Act was established in 1966, so it was relatively still new when the foundation was founded, so preservation well, um, Saratoga had a history of wanting to preserve its heritage I think was relatively in new concept. I think, building owners ah, often don't fully understand the importance of being in a historic district, and can be frustrated or upset when they can't do what they would like to do to their building. I think that is a challenge. Um, I think, one of the challenges that this organization faces now is those who were here in the 1970s and 1980s when Saratoga was, um, not vibrant in a destination recognize the importance of historic preservation. They recognize that it had an important role in Saratoga's economic vitality and success. And they think a lot of new people who move here that are transplants take for granted that historic preservation takes effort. It doesn’t just happen. And that our organization is the one to promote it and ensure that what we have that so special is retained, and that it doesn't just happen. So I think that's one of our biggest challenges that we face now. HL: Ok. Um, so my next question is, can you tell me like, one story you remembered the most in your work, like? SB: Well, there's a couple. Um, when I first started at the foundation not long after there's a handsome, um, Pre-Civil-War Italianate house that I always, um, admired, walking by with my dog, even before I joined the foundation, and I remember one day, walking by this house, and the windows were being taken out, and, um, the house had been purchased by the adjacent owners who lived on North Broadway. And they wanted to demolish the house. It was in good condition, they had paid for over a million dollars for the house. And, um, it was sort of shocking to see a home so beautiful and in good condition, sold for a million dollars, being proposed to be demolished. So that was a memorable moment. At that time, we, the foundation, ah, asked for a demolition moratorium in the city, which we were successful in getting and throughout that period we attempted to expand the local historic district, which would have given oversight, ah, for demolition, ah, to match the boundaries of the national register historic district. And unfortunately, as I mentioned before about challenges, many of the home owners in that particular area did not want to have any oversight by the design review commission. They did not want to have to seek approval to make changes to their building. So with that we were unsuccessful and ah, it was difficult to watch 23 Greenfield be demolished. And today it is a fenced yard, with no building. Ah, another, sadly, another one I think the loses are the hardest ones, and those are the ones you remember most, um, would be 66 Franklin, which um, was a beautiful Second Empire house granted in poor condition, um, maybe not beautiful to most immediate glance, um, but, um, was designed by J.D.Stevens, who would also design our, um, historic hotels, ah, the Grand Union, ah, the Grand Central, and this was one of his last works in Saratoga Springs, there are still a couple that remain, but one of his last, and ah, building owner want to purchase the home and demolish it, ah, unfortunately he was unwilling to share, at the time, what he was proposing to build in its place, which was a, um, the historic review ornaments requires that building owner provide an acceptable post-demolition plan, and he was not, by the foundation standards providing that. Ah, this was ah, I believe a four-year court battle. We were in city court, we went city court, we wanted the state level more than one case and ultimately it was returned back to the designer review commission who accepted a fence and a sign as an acceptable post-demolition plan. So that was another one that was tough to watch, however I'd say one of the most rewarding was the Spirit of Life and Spencer Trust Restoration, because it's truly transformed the way people use the northwest portion of the park. Um, when I first came to Saratoga, the entrance um, the walkway entrance of Broadway was sort of hin, it was dark, um, there, the trees and bushes were overgrown. It was not welcoming, sadly it was the respite for the homeless. There was no lighting at night, ah, there were no benches, ah, there was little landscape, but some of the trees immediately that variety along the reflecting pool wherein overgrown. And, um, today it is an active, vibrant part of the park with people sitting on benches, having picnics, um, there's people walk through there at night, um, it's just really transformed how people walk and use of the park. So that's probably been one of the most rewarding for me since I've been here. HL: Ok. Um, I guess my last question is, what do you want to say about the history and environment of Saratoga Springs? SB: Saratoga is, Saratoga Springs is this amazing, little spot in upstate New York that has a great college, more than one actually, with Empire State College, but Skidmore College it has um, the oldest sports venue in the country, ah, with one of the oldest, the oldest state race, Saratoga Race Course, which is truly magnificent. It is wholly intact from its early time from 1840s to today, um, we are fortunate to have the SPA State Park with SPAC, amazing performance venue that is home to New York City Ballet and Philadelphia Orchestra, and we have this great downtown and neighborhoods, and that's all walkable and it's a variety of architecture, and it's just has a really rich history... [Long Pause] [She starts to cry] There aren't many [Long Pause] cities that have what we have. And such a community that has embraced it, and supported it at least up til this point, and hopefully that doesn't change. HL: Ok. Um, do you have anything else you want to contribute to the interview? SB: No. I think you've covered a lot. HL: Ok. Alright. Thank you so much, um, for this... SB: Sorry. HL: No, no, it's totally fine, yeah. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Samantha Bosshart Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 20th, 2018 Description An account of the resource Samantha Bosshart talks about her experience preserving the history of Saratoga Springs. Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Li, Hongqiao, '18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio recording. Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral history https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/5cadd2984e0eb91af95a552996c40c88.png bd883b3d99b1d50d1bcdf0b9d7466eca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bob Boyers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 22, 2017 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sam Brown Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Creative commons license https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/bc23d1a052a592890809e86b61eaf995.mp3 110431edbd29c02482fe9dbce96202aa https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2d01c86c961fac8903ac3fbf2992758b.pdf 61a5cc6d8d2cb383e7c91f89d0a7e1fa https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/7ebd1a201623e4031d62092adba2e39e.pdf 711c25f00bad3fc83ba943922513b598 PDF Text Text Robert Boyers Interview Transcript Sam Brown: Hi, I’m Sam Brown for Skidmore Oral History. It’s February 22 nd and I’m in the office of Robert Boyers. So I’d first like to ask you, Bob, if you could tell me where you were born, and if you could just introduce yourself a little bit, that would be great. Robert Boyers: Sure. I’m Bob Boyers. I was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1942, and I’ve been teaching at Skidmore College since the summer, actually, of 1969. SB: Generally, can I start by asking how you came to Skidmore? RB: Well, I came to Skidmore in a rather unusual way. I had started a quarterly magazine called Salmagundi out of my apartment in New York City in the middle 1960s when I was a graduate student at New York University, and we managed to bring out—my friends and I had managed to bring out several issues by the Fall of 1968 when I was contacted by the Provost of Skidmore College—a man named Edwin Mosely who had thought about starting a magazine at Skidmore College, and had gone to the Gotham book mart in New York City and had seen some copies of Salmagundi, noted that they were published out of a post office box in New York City, and thought that it would probably be a good idea to be in touch with me about bringing the magazine to the college. So that’s, really, how I came to Skidmore. I came with a magazine. SB: Can you tell me what your motivation was for starting the magazine, specifically? RB: Well, you know, I had several motives. You know, I was a reader of magazines, obviously, like other young intellectuals and so on. And I had begun writing for some of those magazines very early on when I was a graduate student, before I began Salmagundi. I thought it was something I might like to do. The idea had never actually crossed my mind—I mean, I was only twenty-two when the idea finally did cross my mind—and it was placed there by a middle aged professor named Henry Pachter who was the dean of The New School for Social Research in Manhattan. I won’t tell the whole story—I’ve actually written it up in other places. He was a man I got to know in 1964 and he basically put the idea in my head, and encouraged me to do it, and put me in touch with all sorts of writers and intellectuals that I admired. And with that, I was able to figure out how to launch my own magazine. So, that was sort of the origin of the idea, and of course, you know, one’s motives and ambitions are various under those circumstances. Obviously, I was interested in finding an outlet for certain things that I and my friends wanted to write which, at the time at least, was not very easy for us to place in other magazines including very long and demanding essays that we were writing and wanted to continue to write. So there was that sort of thing, but then, also, we were interested in finding a way to bring together politics in the arts in a way that really wasn’t often done in other magazines right at that moment. I mean, there were magazines like the most famous of them: Partisan Review, which managed to publish material on politics and material on the arts, and literature, and film, and so on. But we wanted to do something that was a little different. We wanted to do politics and literature at the same time—to publish articles that engaged with both politics and literature in the same framework and we managed to do that right from the beginning. The only other ambition I’ll mention—I mean there were others—but, really, I was, myself, very taken with the very lengthy essays that were published in the middle of the nineteenth century in the English quarterlies like �the Edinburgh Review and the Westminster Review—the kinds of articles I loved and studied by writers like John Stuart Mill, and Thomas Carlyle, and John Ruskin—those kinds of writers. And really, there was no other magazine in the United States in that moment which reached a large general, educated readership that would accommodate materials of that length. We began to do that right from the start. The second issue of Salmagundi has a very lengthy article on the politics of Jean-Paul Sartre. And we’ve done that throughout the history of the magazine. So that was one of the things that we had in mind to do which we actually did. SB: Can you talk a little bit about how Skidmore facilitated Salmagundi and how it fit itself into the campus right when you got to Skidmore? RB: Well of course, the bottom line really was that Skidmore provided a budget and offices and a couple of student assistants. We had two student assistants. We had very modest offices. Our offices are, now, much more extensive than they were at the time, and we did have, really, a tiny budget—but it was a budget nevertheless. There was no salary for anybody who worked at the magazine, accept for the student assistants, but we had money for mailing and we had a print budget to pay a printer. This was extraordinary. I had managed to support the magazine out of my own pocket for four years which was very difficult to do, and it was wonderful to have this kind of support. In terms of fitting in at Skidmore; that always been not so very easy to tell you the truth. Most academics, then and now, are really not terribly interested in most things outside the framework of their own academic specialty, and Salmagundi is, by definition, a magazine that encompasses all sorts of different things. So, we always had a small cadre of people at Skidmore professors, and students, and so on who were enthusiastic about the magazine, but most people at the college were not terribly enthusiastic or interested in one way or the other. And that was okay—that was fine. I mean, for one thing, what it meant was that we didn’t have any interference in the running of the magazine. There weren’t enough people out there to be terribly interested in it one way or another, as I say. So there was no impulse to become angry about anything that the magazine doing or failing to do. So that was very useful. But, from the start, we wanted to insert the magazine into the life of the college which is what Edwin Mosley—the Provost of the college—had wanted right from the start. So, from the moment I got here, we began sponsoring the kinds of events that otherwise would never have unfolded at this college. Mainly, we began to sponsor and run conferences—many of them two or three day affairs in which major thinkers, writers, scholars, intellectuals would be brought together and asked to sit around a table for three days or so to debate an important subject. The first of those that we sponsored was actually in 1970, and over the years we’ve done more than thirty of those conferences at the college, and that’s one of the ways in which we hoped to develop the intellectual life of the institution. As I say, most of the faculty here were not terribly interested in or committed to those events, and, in fact, didn’t show up at those events. But it’s been a great thing for the faculty and the students who were interested. And, you know, at any given time there were certainly at least a couple dozen faculty members who were invested in what we were doing and many of those faculty, in fact, participated as speakers in some of those conferences. I will say a very considerable proportion of those faculty members were always in the English department rather than other departments, and that’s always been a source of surprise and disappointment to me after all of the many years I’ve been here. But it’s just a fact of life I’ve learned to accept. �SB: I was wondering if you could turn now to when you first came to Saratoga Springs and your personal experience of coming to Skidmore as a younger man. RB: Well, I mean, the college was somewhat smaller in those days for one thing and when I arrived here we were moving between the old campus in town and the current new campus which wasn't all built up when I arrived here in the late 60's and so on. The place you know of course, in terms of the faculty, certainly wasn't quite as strong then as it's become. We have a much larger proportion of the current faculty right now who are doing significant scholarly work. Many fewer faculty in the late 60's and 70's who were here when I arrived, were doing really significant creative and scholarly work, so that was an important difference. Over the years I've watched all sorts of development in the student body. The students in the late 60's and early 70's were terrific they were very good, then there was a long period of time, a considerable stretch of time, when Skidmore was having a very hard time as many previously male colleges and universities began to accept women and began to compete with Skidmore for women students. So I would say for a period of at least a decade and a bit more, there was a considerable decline in the quality of students we were getting. I mean we always had a number of very good students, but it wasn't until the early 1990's that we began to have the kinds of students that we have become accustomed to over the last 25 years or so where most of our students are actually quite good and many of our students are superb. And again, we went through a period where things were very different. SB: Can you talk a little bit about how gender changed the dynamics of the classroom? RB: Well you know, it's funny because when I came in Skidmore was a women's institution but only for a year or so and in fact in the yearbook for the graduating class of May 1970, because I was a young radical, very radical faculty member at the time, the students asked me to write for their yearbook an article promoting co-education, which I did. And of course I argued that it would be good for everyone including the women at the institution and so on if we took in men. But there was a lot of opposition to that—some of it from current students—but a lot of it from alums. They really felt that the character of the institution would change drastically and in a very unfortunate way. Many of the women I spoke to at the time argued on the basis of experience that they had heard from other people that as soon as male students came into Skidmore, the male students would sort of take over the institution. More or less at once it was said that the Skidmore News, the newspaper would be taken over by males, the literary magazine would be taken over by males, the college government association positions would be taken over by males and so on. It never really happened that way, the fears were exaggerated. I felt they would be exaggerated and although I've been wrong about many things over the course of my years at the college that was one area in which I happen to have been right. The men did not take over the institution. We had strong and brilliant women here in the student body over all of the years and we never had any of that kind of problem in that transition. Of course for awhile, Skidmore wanted to attract male students and had a very hard time doing so and a considerable proportion of the male students we did attract were not nearly to the level of the women students we had, but again, after awhile that began to change and you didn't feel that that was any longer the case. So again, my long years here have been a time when we have watched all sorts of changes taking place. But in terms of the gender problem, I really haven't felt that that has been a significant thing at least in my own experience of the classroom and the institution as a whole. �SB: Can you talk a little bit about how the English Department has changed over the years and how it has grown. I understand you play a big role in hiring faculty members. RB: Yes, for many years I was on the Hiring Committee and the Personnel Committee here and until quite recently in fact our Personal Committee in the department was also the Hiring Committee. We didn't have, for most of the years I've been at the college, separate committees assembled to hire a person for a particular position. Again, the people who were on the Personnel Committee, who were elected to that committee, handled not only assessment, which is to say reappointments, tenure, promotions and all of the hiring. So I was involved in hiring, I had a hand in it, I wasn't the person in charge of it, but I had a hand in it and in the hiring just about everybody who is in the department now and that was a wonderful opportunity to be involved in that. The department has changed in a great many ways, and it's hard to say exactly how. I mean you could point to particular areas where the changes have been dramatic. For example, when I came in there was a poet named Lawrence Josephs who taught a poetry workshop each year. He had an academic background and he was a good but not well-known poet, he did not have a book of poems. He was a man, when I came in, who was in his fifties and he had been here for quite some time. We didn't have a creative writing faculty at all, we didn't have a fiction writer on staff. There was no such thing as creative non-fiction. And again, the only person who taught the poetry workshop was this one man Lawrence Josephs and so I and a number of other people began to fight for the idea that to be credible and to offer creative writing in a serious way, we had to recruit and hire creative writers who were significant authors and had well received books to their credit and so on, and who would basically be hired for that purpose. They wouldn't just be professors with PhD's in an academic subject who felt they could teach a course in fiction and so on, which by the way was never taught when I originally came in at Skidmore. So that was one very significant change and as I say I was one of the people who fought very hard for that. Other areas were very different, we often had considerable battles within the department about whether or not we wanted to hire people specifically to teach freshman composition. Many people felt that it was a good idea for everyone to teach freshman composition, not to hire a separate cadre of people who only did that. But basically over the years I think we sort of have all adapted to the situation as its evolved. And the college as a whole, again I think the faculty certainly has become stronger and in recent years, the student body has become stronger. So I would say in general Skidmore is at a pretty good place right now. I mean I could get into all sorts of parochial matters that are still struggling about but probably not of great interest to people who are not academics themselves. For example, the relationship between theory and what we call primary literature itself. In my own estimation in the profession of literature these days we have lots of people who are entering English Departments who are primarily interested in theory and have very little interest in Literature itself. I think that is very unfortunate. People in my generation generally went in to college English teaching because they were passionate about poetry and fiction and such things. We were interested in ideas, some of us like myself were intellectuals who write about all sorts of issues and topics and so on. But our passion is really about poetry and fiction and the primary texts and the arts and so on. I think my sense has been that many people in the profession, and that includes some people at the college as well, are not that interested in literature for its own sake. They are interested in it for the uses they can make of it in connection with their own theoretical investments, which I think is fine as long as they don't communicate that feeling in �the classroom. In so far as they do, my sense is that the students are not getting what they aught to get when they enroll in classes in Literature. But again, that's just one view and there are many other views that are held by very smart people who see things rather in a different way. SB: I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the New York Summer Writers Institute and how that has cemented itself into Skidmore. RB: Yeah that's another one of those things that certainly to me came as an enormous surprise. You know I'm not by temperament or disposition an administrator. There was a time years ago when people would come to me and say you should be Chair of the Department or Dean of the College or something and I'd say no, no I have no interest in doing something like that and I'm not really good at that sort of thing. But 31 years ago Skidmore was approached by the novelist William Kennedy who had just begun the New York State Writers Institute in Albany at the State University. He had a dream of starting a summer program and thought that such a program would be very attractive if it was started at a small liberal arts school like Skidmore and in a town like Saratoga Springs. And so because of Salmagundi and my connections with dozens and dozens of writers and so on, people who were approached thought I would be the obvious person to direct such and institute and it seemed like a nice idea and I thought to do it for a short while. I never really dreamed that I would feel like staying with it for a long time. Again, because it involved a certain type of administrative function that really was not ever part of my ambition, but I found that I liked it and that I was able to build the program into a national program over the course of the first 5 or 6 years. I was given rather a free hand to do that and so the program grew and I found that it was very important to me in a whole variety of ways, some of which were personal some of which were professional. I could mention the personal that is sort of interesting, in the sense that my wife, Peg Boyers, who was the Executive Director of Salmagundi and an occasional writer of critical prose, sort of got the feeling after the first 8 or 10 years of the writers institute that she wanted to try to write poetry. She began to enroll in summer courses first with the poet Robert Pinsky but then shortly thereafter with the poet Frank Bidart and suddenly discovered that she was, lo and behold, a first rate poet and has now gone on to publish three well received books of poems and so that has rather changed her life. Of course I will always be grateful for the fact that the New York State Summer Writers Institute came to me and that I was able to make something of it because it gave my wife this whole extraordinary unexpected career, so there was that. But there was another aspect of it that was through the Writers Institute I became close to dozens of first rate writers who began to contribute their writing to Salmagundi Magazine, which is a magazine that of course by that time had a large national reputation as small quarterly but which for the most part could not have acquired the first rate writing of many of those writers had we not developed personal relationships with them. The simple reason is that we don't pay money. They can give that writing to national magazines, so that's been an extraordinary benefit that I never imagined would come to pass when I decided to take on the Summer Writers Institute. Of course it has been great to have the program here at the college. Our public events 5 nights a week draw good audiences, every night of the week in the auditorium and we get lots of publicity for the college all over the country which is very important to the college and very important to me as somebody who has been at the college for almost a half century. That has been wonderful. The truth is again most faculty at the college don't have anything to do with the institute, don't come to the readings, don't derive any benefit personally or professionally from it which is fine. The seats are filled �every night in the auditorium from people far and wide who come to the events and so on and of course we draw students to the workshops from all over the country, a small number of Skidmore students enroll every year but we have students every year from major universities and small colleges all over the country. SB: I guess going back a little bit, to when you first came to Skidmore; I know there was a lot of student protests happening at the time and I was wondering what the Skidmore student body was like at the time and if you could compare it to the student body now a little bit. RB: Well you know I think in the life of any institution the sort of student politics rises and falls depending on the particular student cohort. In a school like Skidmore, a relatively small number of students can change the atmosphere on the campus in extraordinary ways. When I say small number, I really mean a small number, a dozen, fifteen, twenty students out of 2,000 or more students could really mobilize energies on a campus like this in ways that are quite extraordinary. In the late 1960's when I arrived it was an era all across the country of student radicalism and student protest, but the truth is the overwhelming majority of students at Skidmore at the time were not activists, whatever the sort of publicity that's sometimes put out by people who are themselves activists and so on and remember fondly the "good old days" when..., I mean most students then and now are invested in their academic work and their clubs and their teams and so on and are not deeply invested in politics certainly not in radical politics. There was, however, in the moment of the late 60's and early 70's, a considerable minority of Skidmore students who were very involved in politics both on and off the campus. I was myself very involved in antiWar activities and Civil Rights activities on the campus. I was among a small number, it was a very small number, of faculty members who were basically mobilizing student activism back at that moment. But even then, there were considerable differences of opinion about what mobilizing student activists should entail. If you like I can give you an example. At the time of the Kent State killings in the Spring of 1970, which was the end of my own first year at Skidmore College, there were student protests and lots of Skidmore students became involved, many more that I could of imagined would be possible. I mean hundreds of students were involved in on-campus marches and protests. We began to organize, that is 3 other faculty members and I began to organize teach-ins which would address the war in Vietnam, the question of student activism itself, Civil Rights issues as they were then emerging and so on. And basically it was the tail end of the semester and it called a halt to classes. Many faculty members were very angry about this, understandably I think it is fair to say, and I think this history is available in back issues of the Skidmore New and Saratogian and that sort of thing because obviously it really was newsworthy at least in this immediate local. On one of those teach-in occasions, as we were moving into the second day of our sort of work stoppage and student strike, we were moving toward the final exam period and one of the faculty, a full-time member of the English department in Skidmore, a man about my age, in his mid twenties, a very brilliant young man, got up and urged that we continue the strike right through the final exam period that we simply force the cancelation of the exams. Many students were very upset about this and spoke out at that meeting. And of course there were other faculty members who were very upset about it and again I would say legitimately so and that seemed to me a very important turning point. I as one of the leaders of this organization argued that this was not a good thing to do to put students in jeopardy, students were about to graduate, they needed the course credits and so on. My colleague and I had a ferocious public argument on the subject with lots of other �people participating and basically his view was that these kinds of things are much more terrifying in your imagination than they actually turn out to be in reality. My view was that no actually they can be quite terrifying. People who have spent enormous sums of money and suddenly find that they cannot graduate because they don't have the academic credits to do so have real reason to be terrified and their parents have legitimate reason to be very upset and so on and this is taking the whole thing too far. I don't pretend to be right about this sort of thing, but I am pointing it out to suggest that these types of debates were going on at colleges and universities all over the country and it took place here at Skidmore with hundreds and hundreds of students very much involved. But you know over the years after that point there have been intermittent student mobilizations and protests on behalf of one thing or another and again most Skidmore students haven't been deeply involved in those mobilizations and its always very nice to see an occasional sort of eruption of concern where there is a march or a student protest and so on and it's nice to see that Skidmore students are in fact paying attention to what is going on out there in the world. Of course many of those things unfortunately follow what might be called the ideological fashion and lots of people jump on to a particular bandwagon only because it is the thing that is being done all over the country at any given moment and of course that sort of momentary fashion passes the interest in the issues disappears. I think we have seen that over and over and over again and it's not really surprising, but it's the way of things and it is no different in that sense at Skidmore than it is anywhere else. SB: That was great. We are almost done, but I was wondering if there was anything specifically that you would like to mention about Skidmore in general or about any specific anecdotes or encounters with the Presidents like David Porter or anything like that. RB: Well I have had in general, very warm relationships with the various administrations that I have lived through. My sense is that the present administration, President Glotzbach and Beau Breslin and so on are exceptionally good, smart and dedicated. We have our differences to put it mildly, I mean that's what you would want, I mean I think that is what they would want, that people are thinking about real issues have their differences. I've been very concerned frankly in the last few years in the way I have been intimately over the last 25 years or so, about the, what might be called the reign of political correctness on this campus and other campuses. That is an area in which the present administration and I have some rather considerable differences of opinion. Of course time will tell whether these differences are significant as they sometimes seem to me to be. These kinds of problems having to do with political correctness and so on can be very worrying when you think about the way they play out in the classroom, when you think about the way they constrain open discussion and conversation of subjects in the classroom. It can be very worrying if you think about the way they shape the recruitment of new faculty and I'm frankly worried about those things. I've seen things recently over the years, especially recently, which seem to me to suggest that these issues are more important right now than they have been in the past and my sense is that administration typically runs scared when these kinds of things erupt. They worry that the faculty will find them at fault, will censure them and then they don't adopt the kinds of leadership that they are capable of. I haven't seen that just yet occurring with the present Skidmore Administration but there are worrying signs at least for me and some of my colleagues who are similarly worried, and I hope that our fears are, as they sometimes are, exaggerated or misguided, but we will see. �SB: Okay, last question. If you could talk about some of the things you are proud of and what Skidmore has meant to you. RB: Well you know of course I love to teach and I'm old enough to stop, to retire. I'm hoping to keep going, which says a lot about what matters most to me and what I'm pleased about as I look back over my years at the college. Every year for a very long time now at the alumni reunion in late May early June I give a mini class on some subject or other and every year I have a very large crowd turning out and of course many of them are people from a very long time ago who studied with me many many years ago and are coming back to their thirtieth reunion or their fortieth reunion that sort of thing. We get to see one another and remember the past and that sort of thing and that is important to me when I know that these students from the past remember these classes together as formative to them in some way and that of course is in some ways the most important thing. A considerable cohort of students who become very close friends, whom I see on a regular basis, come and stay with us for the weekend and that is sort of great. When we had the last Salmagundi conference this past fall the 50th Anniversary conference, we had 7 former students who graduated in the past who came back for the 3 days, two of them flew in from San Francisco, that was great to me. If you ask me what are you proud of what are you gratified by...That. That is very important to me more than anything else in many ways. SB: Great! Thanks a lot Bob RB: You are welcome. By all means. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sam Brown '16 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Boyers Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit November 19, 2018 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:47:57 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert Boyers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 22, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Robert Boyers, came to Skidmore in 1969 as a professor of English and editor-in-chief of "Salmagundi Magazine," which has been housed at the College ever since. In this interview, Professor Boyers talks about the journal’s influence on campus and beyond, as well as his work as director of the New York State Summer Writers Institute. He also describes his engagement with student activism in the early 1970's, as well as his continuing commitment to maintaining lively intellectual debate at the College. https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8724cd574684f9897a57937a4ce1fd6f.jpg 455a23c6d896e5e1eb8cd80ae8836ddc https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/93c0faca31c1bcca74e517a6d5d5a9d7.m4a 4828b0a55761bfed4fdc7a1289edb1bf https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/50bdf698470b4afca8d04ac601fd6dd4.pdf 547a52b2d9690049f1c47eac4c46db34 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Ruth Copans Years at Skidmore: 24 (1991-2015) Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Denver, CO Date of Interview: February 22, 2023 00:00:00 Header 00:00:48 Grew up in Newburgh, NY. Learned bookbinding and book preservation in Paris; realized would eventually need a library degree. 00:01:23 Interest in book preservation arose from fixing husband John’s used books. 00:01:48 Lived with family in Paris and studied in bookbinding studio. 00:02:15 Moved to Saratoga Springs when John was hired at Skidmore; eventually negotiated an exchange of book preservation skills for studio space in Scribner Library. 00:03:00 First worked in Skidmore Administration, then other campus roles, then sought space. 00:03:35 Space was on fourth floor; worked on Special Collections, Victorian book collection. 00:04:02 Concurrently, earned library degree from SUNY Albany and worked in several libraries, then hired as Skidmore’s librarian for Humanities and Special Collections. 00:05:14 Two major library renovations; first, a complete gutting and renovation. 00:05:50 When Peggy left, Copans became Interim Director for one year. 00:06:20 Newly hired director Barbara Doyle Welch stayed only eight months; Copans didn’t want interim role again, so sought and was hired as permanent director. 00:07:27 Challenging time for academic libraries; tension between print versus electronic material, in terms of budget allocations, ownership versus rental, etc. 00:07:48 Public libraries missions also evolving, but different missions than academic. 00:08:55 Academic: tension a reflection of the Internet in general — access to greater amounts of material, but then became more important to teach how to distinguish quality of materials. 00:10:00 Did so by creating series of classes, partnering with faculty, staffing reference desk. 00:10:55 Goals: to keep students working in library, and for faculty to engage in that space too. The new study rooms were important, especially as faculty were assigning more group projects. 00:11:40 Challenge: to keep up with technological changes. 00:12:00 Second renovation’s purpose was primarily to move IT Department into library. 00:12:49 Also provided faculty gathering space; “the more activities… in the library, the better.” 00:13:26 Copans wanted people thinking of the library as a place of help. 00:14:35 Primary challenge: money! Another: making library space both respectful and lively. 00:15:40 Money challenge because departments wanted library to subscribe to many resources. 00:16:30 Negotiated money with Vice Presidents of Academic Affairs and of Financial Affairs. 00:18:10 Other Skidmore administrators Copans worked with during her tenure. 00:20:33 Fondest memory: getting the Carnegie Weill chamber musicians to perform in library. �00:21:29 When Copans was Interim Director, she dreamed of having tea and music weekly. 00:21:59 Did host some faculty talks at noon. Eg. Mehmet Odekon discussed marble collection. 00:23:00 Embracing technology was perhaps biggest element of tenure as Director. Not just IT department, but altogether. Eg. putting music CDs in more public, accessible space. Shifting from idea of library possessing objects to borrowing/subscriptions. 00:24:48 Also important: understanding that the library had many functions, not just one. 00:25:15 A change: hired a head librarian (Marta Brunner) who didn’t have a library degree. 00:26:10 Dramatic change in the nature of libraries. Eg. used to have typewriter rooms. 00:27:00 Even once students all owned computers, many still preferred to work in library: quieter, and also a less isolated environment. 00:27:48 Also had movies; VHS, DVDs for students to take out, plus some streaming services. 00:28:26 Money limited amount of material available, though library renovation added group viewing rooms, which enabled more access to films. 00:29:10 Retired 2015. Great community of people, beautiful campus, great time for libraries. 00:30:25 Hard things happening in US at that time, but still really good years. 00:30:48 Since retiring, moved to be with children. In CA, volunteered with World Reader. 00:32:05 In CO, several volunteer projects with Denver Public Library Special Collections. 00:34:45 There was no Special Collections librarian when Copans started at Skidmore. Copans got an endowment that covered part of salary and enabled purchase of materials; one area of focus was collecting artists’ books; a particular help for art classes. 00:36:45 Other Special Collections materials included David Porter’s collection of classic texts, Phyllis Roth’s vampire collection, a valuable Native American Indian book collection, etc. 00:37:30 Copans brought people in to Special Collections with presentations during Skidmore Celebration Weekend, as well as worked with various classes to teach history of information. 00:38:18 Work with Special Collections was great counterbalance to work with technology. 00:39:10 Increasing need to help students distinguish important resources from among the vast availability of materials. 00:40:00 Used to be library orientation classes for first year students, but not in many years. 00:40:50 Now rely more on faculty bringing classes; sometimes peer mentors bring groups in. 00:41:52 In first/big renovation, had some input into the Special Collections area. 00:43:04 In second, worked really closely with architects. That renovation included digging space for IT and redoing first floor to make space for Help Desk and other IT offices, to keep them integrated/accessible, not stuck “in the middle of nowhere.” 00:45:37 END � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/127b7cc3d9de75e88f00fca68a67dfb9.pdf caf4a77337e8d85c4d80522bdc87234b PDF Text Text Interview with Ruth Copans by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Denver, CO, February 22, 2023. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber on Wednesday, February 22nd, for the Skidmore Oral History program of retirees. We are in Denver, Colorado, and I am interviewing Ruth Copans, and … with the nice help of Susan Doherty. We are in Denver, Colorado, where Ruth has … where Ruth is currently living. So, Ruth, tell us where you grew up and a little bit about your background. RUTH COPANS: Ok, well I grew up in a small town in New York, on the Hudson Valley, called Newburgh. My background in terms of librarianship, umm … I started out as a fine bookbinder; I trained in Paris to become a bookbinder. Then I went into book preservation work, mostly realizing that I would need to work in libraries, and eventually realized that if I was going to work in a library and wanted to make a living, I needed to get a library degree and be a professional, which is what I did. LG: How did you get interested in book preservation and such? RC: Well I was married to a French professor who collected books, and we never had a lot of money so he was always collecting falling-apart books [laughs], which needed a lot of repair. So, um, and of course French books were often published in paperback, so the issue became also learning how to bind paperback books. But then I was lucky enough to go to Paris because we had family in Paris, so we could live with my uncle, who was my father’s brother, and his Parisian wife in their apartment and I could study in a bookbinding studio, and so I studied fine leather binding and did that for a while. Umm, and that of course brought me back into library work, into preservation work, and once we moved to Saratoga Springs, where John was teaching at Skidmore, thanks to you [laughs], I exchanged my skills for studio space in the … what was the Scribner, the old Scribner Library … um, which was … LG: Now did you get a degree in librarianship? RC: I did. I was working on it … LG: From? RC: From University of Albany. Yeah. LG: And when was that? RC: Ohh… I don’t know. LG: Ok, sorry [laughs]. RC: Sometime, sometime in the ‘80s [laughs]. Sorry about my poor memory. �LG: Ok, and do you remember when you came to Skidmore? RC: Well John moved, we moved to Saratoga Springs in 1985. I was pregnant for our second daughter then, so it took me a while to, um … I had a lot of bookbinding equipment which I’d shipped back from France sitting in the garage, et cetera, so … obviously it took me a couple of years. I worked first in the Admissions office, interviewing. I did a bunch of stuff around campus. Um, … so eventually I, you know I had the hutzpah, I guess, to go ask David Eyman if there was any space in the library. LG: And David Eyman was, at the time? RC: The director of the library, right. And there was, on the fourth floor where the Special Collections were housed there was a small, empty, windowless room — actually the whole floor — I used to call it my penthouse. And so he gave me that space and then I had access to the Special Collections and I could pick and, you know, choose. I wasn’t working on leather bindings but there were a lot of Victorian cloth bindings that needed repair, so I worked on that collection. LG: And for how long did you do that? RC: Well, I did it for two or three years. Yeah, I got my library degree during that time, I worked at SUNY Albany as a Preservation Assistant, I got a grant to spend three months at Cornell working in preservation. Then I came back, worked part time in reference at the public library, did a one-year replacement librarian position at Skidmore, and then, when the Humanities Librarian was denied tenure, the Humanities position became available. And because I had a Master’s degree in English Literature, plus my Library … it was still a Library degree in those days, I applied and was a successful candidate to do special, um … Humanities Librarian and the Special Collections. So I continued my preservation work —- worked on the Special Collection. One of the candidates took a look at the job description and said, “that’s three jobs!” But I was undaunted, of course, because I wanted the job, because John was there, we lived close by, so, um … and I loved the place! I loved Skidmore and I loved the library, so .. yeah. LG: Good! Um, there were a lot of changes during your time. RC: Oh, boy, yeah! I mean, we went through two major renovations! The first one Peggy Seiden was the library …, David sort of oversaw, David Eyman oversaw the construction and the renovation. LG: Of the new building? RC: Of the … the original. I mean, we’re still in the building which was the first one on the campus, the new campus, to be built. So it was renovated once when we all moved down to the gym. We moved the whole collection down to the gym. It was gutted and redone. And that was under Peggy. Then Peggy left. �LG: She went to Swarthmore. RC: She did, she went to Swarthmore, where she still is, I think. Um, I … oh! [laughs]. A neighbor of Bryn Mawr, where someone else graduated, which has the most amazing collection of incunabula of, I think, any college in the country. But anyway, that’s neither here nor there. Um, so when Peggy left I was an interim director for a year. We hired a replacement for Peggy who left eight months later, and then … LG: Who was that? RC: Ah, Barbara Doyle Welch. Yeah, well she was sort of fleeting … And then, um, the then Dean asked me to be a … LG: And the Dean was? RC: At that point … a psychology professor, what was his name? He was also short lived. You know who I mean, though, right? He and his wife both came. LG: Okay. RC: … I’ll remember but I don’t. LG: Alright. RC: But in any case I said, “I’m not coming back as interim. I can’t get anything done, I’m treading water. Look at my resume compared to all the resumes we looked at. Either hire me back as a permanent director, or, you know, find somebody else.” So they gave me the job. Which was, you know, like good news-bad news, because it wasn’t really what I wanted to be doing but the … LG: And when you got the job, were you still in your temporary quarters or had you …? RC: No, we moved back into the library before Peggy left. She was there for all the celebrations and she, you know, she stayed for a while. Yeah, so that was, you know, a challenging time already. I mean the building was in good shape. We weren’t questioning that. We had a good teaching room, we had a lot of good spaces, umm … but, you know, it was the … it’s been a dynamic time in libraries for a very long time now, and certainly, especially, academic libraries. You know, public libraries have a different mission, although their mission has certainly been evolving. When I look at the Denver Public Library, where I volunteer now, umm, I see that every day. It’s a, you know, a haven for homeless, among other things. Yeah, they have social, right inside the door they have social services available, and bathrooms, and public computers … but anyway, that’s not academic libraries, that’s public libraries. Our tension became one, of course, of analog versus digital, print material versus electronic material. You know, when I came the print budget was much more significant than the electronic budget. By the time I left it was �completely the opposite. And so that was a really … um, stressful change. It was like moving from ownership to rental, because we weren’t owning things, necessarily, anymore. And we were paying on a continuous basis for access to material, on one hand. On the other hand we were giving access to our students to a wealth of material that they never, in a million years, could have had access to otherwise. RC: Um, so it feels a lot like it’s a reflection of the Internet in general. I mean, we all have such amazing access; um, on the other hand, too much is not necessarily good either. But one of the things that was very clear is, our students’ attention spans seem to be decreasing. So, you know, they were hungry for short material. No one wanted to sit there and read a 600 page book, necessarily, but access to scholarly material became really important. Especially because their instinct was always to just go to Google, do a search, stick on the first page, take the first couple of articles they could find, no matter what the quality was. So a lot of the challenge was saying, “We have fantastic material that’s available. Let us help you actually find this material.” LG: And how did you do that? RE: We did that by, you know, creating a whole series of bibliographic instruction classes. We tried very hard to partner with faculty to get them to bring their classes in so we could teach them how to do research, and if they had a topic that they were working in, that made it all the easier. And of course we did it also by staffing the Reference Desk — being available to students, especially in the evening. LG: I was just going to say, “Student time.” RE: Yeah, exactly. Evenings. I mean, we did weekends but obviously we stopped doing Saturday afternoons because that was not a time when students were necessarily looking for help, but we did Sunday afternoons and evenings. Really. I assume they are still doing them. Yeah. LG: Um, what kind of goals, then, did you have once you moved into this new building and, um, RC: Yeah. I mean, it’s … so for me, what I understood was that we needed to keep students coming to the library to do their work, and we needed faculty to also engage with that space, and we had created, in that first renovation there were a lot of study rooms, which were very important for students because faculty were moving towards group projects, especially in some of the heavily populated majors like Business, so there were a lot of spaces which had wonderful facilities available to students to use. Um, the challenge was to keep up on the electronics because that changes so much and because the students were always five steps ahead of us in terms of understanding what they wanted and how to use it, and because often their presentations use technology. So at that point in time the IT department was a separate entity in a separate building. So over time my big challenge became renovating the building once again to incorporate the IT department into the library. �LG: And do you have any idea when that happened? RC: Well, if I retired in 85, it was done in 83. I’ve got the wrong dates here. 2000 … I retired in 2015. I was on sabbatical in 2013, and the project was done, so it must have been between 2011-2012, that that was done. And that was huge but it felt very important, and at the same time, what had been our staff room I gave to the faculty for the, a little faculty study area. I can’t even remember what it’s called … the Weller Room, in the library, for gatherings of faculty, because I felt like we needed faculty — we had moved the teaching faculty, the art historians who had been in the building, out of the building, and taken that space over as part of the IT department as well, so the fact that it was organic at that point felt very, very important. And the more activities that were going on in the library, the better off I felt we were in the long run. LG: Um, did you institute the Help Desk for technology? RC: No, that was the IT Department. It had been, in the early days it had been in a different building. LG: Right. RC: But having that … having it in such a prominent place in the middle of the campus is what became important to me. LG: So that was their undertaking? RC: It was my undertaking with the architect and the head of IT, who was Justin Sipher at the time. Justin and I met with the architect about the renovation and I wanted the Help Desk there, because again, I wanted people coming into my building. I wanted them thinking about it as a place of help. It’s kind of the joy of being a librarian. I didn’t have to grade students, I just needed to be there for them, and that’s what the Help Desk felt like. Not just students but faculty as well. Which is why we had some, you know, study carrels for faculty as well. LG: So if you had to make a list of what the challenges were? RC: Oh money!! [laughs] LG: Ok. RC: Student behavior. You know, trying to keep a space that felt respectful. Um, you know, students have a tendency, especially, you know — you don’t like your roommate so where are you going to go? Well, a great place to hang out is the library. But, no, we … people were sometimes dealing drugs. There was a Facebook page in those days: “I definitely have had sex in the library.” It, you know, I wanted it to be a scholarly environment if I could. But I also wanted it to have a certain liveliness. I mean, I took all of the “Do Not” signs down. When they first renovated it you couldn’t eat, you weren’t �supposed to talk on your cell phone, blah blah blah. People were sort of struggling with all those issues and I was like, you know, the first time we tell a student they can’t do something, they’re going to say, “Somebody yelled at me and I’ll never walk back in the library.” So part, you know … that was one challenge. RC: The money challenge, of course, was … every department, every academic department, wanted us to subscribe to electronic resources and we couldn’t afford all of them. The cost of those, of journals, in the sciences, was escalating to an incredible degree. But as collaborative research became more and more important for many of the science faculty, many of the faculty in general but certainly the science faculty, as we were trying to build the STEM areas on the campus, again the pressure over money and how to allocate the funds that we had was a really tough one because we were constantly making choices. LG: Um, whom did you do battle with over this money? RC: Well, I mean my first line of defense, obviously, was the person I reported to, and that was whoever was the VPAA, because that was my reporting line. For a while I reported to Sarah Goodwin, who was the Associate Dean, which was really kind of lovely in its own way. But really my report was to the VPAA. So part of it was that, part of it was Mike West. I mean, Mike West and I worked — who was the Vice President for Financial Affairs — umm, we worked very, very closely together, and he held the purse strings. So when I wanted to completely re-carpet the library in 2011, he was the person I had to go and plead with. You know, he was the one who oversaw the renovation plans, et cetera. And it was a little whimsical, as some things at Skidmore were. I mean you never knew. You know there was … I also was collecting for the Special Collections and there was a very expensive book I wanted, and the old person in Finance, Mike Hall, you know, was a really good friend and colleague and one day he said,“What was it you wanted to buy?” And I said it was this illustrated Barry Moser Bible for a thousand dollars, and he said, “Do it.” You know, so you never knew, honestly. But what I knew was important was to have a congenial relationship with people in the administration. LG: And, um, who was the President, who in the administration, aside from Mike Hall and company, did you have a lot of dealings with? RC: Well, Beau, Susan Kress, … LG: Beau? RC: Beau … umm, ahh, [laughs] I was going to say Bridges and that’s the wrong name! LG: [laughs] RC: [laughs] If only! Oh … what is his name? Oh boy. This is what happens when it’s the retiree interviews. LG: Yeah. �RC: Umm, Susan Kress, … I mean I started out under Phyllis. LG: Phyllis Roth? RC: Phyllis Roth. LG: Who was then? RC: Um, VPAA, right? Or … or Dean of the Faculty? LG: She was a Dean of the Faculty and then briefly, wasn’t she the, a President? RC: She was. So there was also … Chuck Joseph, right? LG: Yeah. RC: Umm. Beau Breslin. [laughs]. Um, so you know, those were my immediate report … I had a very good relationship with both David Porter, obviously, whose a book lover, so David and I had many a long conversation, and Helen worked in the archives … LG: Helen? RC: Helen Porter, David’s wife. We actually gave her a study carrell, finally, because she was up there so much, and was working on a project for the archives. Um, Phil Glotzbach and I got along incredibly well — he was very, very supportive of the library. He was a real library booster. I mean all of, these are, these were scholarly Presidents, in a lot of ways. I missed out on Palamountain. I didn’t work under Palamountain. So, um … I mean people love the library, and I think the fact that I was willing to embrace the IT Department meant a great deal. I wasn’t, like, being standoffish. I really could look at the future and say “this is of critical importance.” You know some colleges have just shut their libraries and they just don’t care about the … the print material. And it’s expensive to maintain, it’s expensive to staff, and in some places, especially where technology is the primary focus, it’s like, “we’re just doing online material.” They, you know, have Help Desks, per se, but they’re not maintaining collections. LG: So what was your fondest memory? RC: Ok my fondest memory was, I negotiated to get the chamber players to perform in the library, the Carnegie … um, what was the … Weill? Carnegie Weill, that’s what it used to be called. I don’t know what it is anymore. And so … LG: I think it might be Ensemble Connect, now. RC: Could be. �LG: In its current iteration. RC: Yeah. I loved it, when we first … LG: These were the students who would come for a residency, right? RC: Exactly, yeah. They would come for a performance, most of them had graduated, they all had graduated from conservatories, and they were working, many of them, within the public school system in New York, and they did amazing performances together. And as a sort of preview to their major concert on campus, they would come to the library and perform. When we first moved into the building, when I first took over as the Interim Director, I, my dream was to have tea and music late one afternoon every week, like Friday afternoons when the library wasn’t crowded and it wouldn’t disturb any students who were studying. So I was, I really desperately wanted to bring things that felt cultured, to me, but also really fun. I loved music just kind of drifting, never for long and never in a disruptive way. For a very brief moment we did some faculty talks at noon, where faculty would come and talk about their collections. LG: Do you remember any in particular? RC: I remember Mehmet Odekon coming and talking about his marble collection. LG: Mehmet was in the Economics Department. RC: Yeah, yeah. It was just, I just wanted a little bit of life and vivacity at the same time as I wanted it to all feel like it was grounded in something academic. I mean, that, you know, that’s a battle long lost, but, those, I have very wonderful memories of that. LG: Any others besides Mehmet that you remember? RC: Uh, I’m really struggling here because, you know, I’m a few years out from my retirement, and also, having physically removed myself from Saratoga, they are not faculty that I bump into very often, so… um, I … I don’t. LG: So probably the IT, um, presence in the library might have been one of the biggest? RC: I think embracing technology … LG: Altogether? RC: Altogether, became really, you know, negotiating with faculty for a long time. For example, the entire CD collection was behind the Circulation Desk because the Music Department thought that if we put it out in public that the students would all steal the CDs. Um, and finally I went to the Music Department and said, “We will replace any CD that is stolen. I promise you. We will replace them. So have no fear. Students don’t want them, they download music. Even if they take them out they’re going to download it. They don’t �want to own CDs.” But, I took John Cosgrove, who was my Public Service librarian, and a six foot tall Irishman, with me, so when they decided to beat me up I had some protection. [laughs] And they were not happy. There was no question they weren’t happy. And finally I just said, “Look, we’re going to do it. We’ll try it for a year and we’ll reevaluate.” And of course nothing was stolen! But that sense of possessiveness of the object, just like possessiveness of books and texts. And it’s true that students are happy to read books, but they don’t want to read them for their courses. They’re happy to read fiction — a lot of them said they prefer to read an actual book rather than on the Kindle or whatever. At least that was true when I was there, though it may not be true anymore. But I do think that embracing technology and also understanding that the library had many functions, not just one, became very important. Yeah. LG: So it was a meeting place for faculty. RC: Yeah. LG: It was a meeting place for students. RC: Yeah. LG: It was a place where they could go for technology. RC: Yeah. LG: What am I missing? RC: Help with research. Access to materials. LG: So, what kinds of changes in the backgrounds of the librarians, um, did you see in the course of your career? RC: Well, it wasn’t so much the background of librarians but we hired a head librarian who didn’t have a library degree. The woman who replaced me does not have a library degree. LG: And that is? RC: Um, Marta… LG: Brunner? RC: Brunner. LG: Marta Brunner. RC: Yeah. And that was controversial when I left. You know there were some people who were �very reticent to hire someone … um, she had worked in a library, she had a PhD … in Consciousness or something, from some place in California. Um, I mean I never worked with her. We have a very cordial relationship, but I, um, I knew when I left, there were changes that were needed in the library. There always are changes that are needed in a library. But I also felt like I was done. That I had done what I set out to do. I left the library in wonderful shape. I was, you know, really happy about the changes. But I …I was done. I don’t know what Marta’s done — I’ve never been back to the library. LG: But it sounds like the nature of what a library is has basically fundamentally changed. RC: Yeah, yeah! Yeah, from the days when everybody was going around going, “Shhhh,” and, you know. We had funny pictures of the small room with the typewriters where students came to type their papers, you know. And then … a flood of computers where students could come. LG: And printers? RC: Well the printers were critical, because they all had computers by then, but they didn’t have printers. But a lot of them worked better in that kind of an environment and I understand that, … it kind of forces you to concentrate in a way. LG: And you don’t have your roommate or folks next door making noise. RC: Yeah, and some people don’t like working in isolation. They feel lonely and isolated. And so that’s another thing that the library always provided, I think. And I remembered that from me. I spent a summer up at University of Vermont taking courses, um, because my brother was doing his residency there, and um, I didn’t know anybody. I was very lonely, and I would just go to the library to do my research for the courses, you know, so I never felt alone. And I wanted our students, especially the students who might have one of those weekends when they didn’t have a lot to do, to feel like there was a place for them to come. Movies for them to take out. Whatever. Yeah. LG: When you first started, were there movies for them to take out? RC: Always. They were VHS tapes. Yeah. I mean, we had a great film collection. I still miss it. LG: And when you left, what were those movies on? Not VHS. RC: No, DVDs. They were on DVDs. I mean we were, we … there were some streaming film services that we had. The problem is in, I think Marta’s made some hard decisions about the ones to maintain and the ones that … faculty can rent films for teaching, but they, we couldn’t give free rein to students. Again, money. Money, money, money. There’s so much available. I mean I, you know I think there’s almost anything you can get if you are willing to pay a few dollars and to be honest. Considering that lots of people aren’t requiring $200 text books any more, I think students can afford. And they can watch together. One of the things we built into the library was the, into the library renovation, �was the viewing room. So, you know, twenty people could sit there and watch a film. Yeah. LG: So when did you retire? RC: I retired in 2015. LG: And as you look back, what are your fondest memories … of the college in general? RC: What a great community of people it was! I, you know there’s no denying that these were our friends, these were people that we knew, that we loved, that we … that our children grew up with. It’s a beautiful campus. Its heart is in the right place, even if it gets some things wrong. You know, it’s not always easy. Umm, it was a great time, really, to be in … in higher education. It was a great time to be in librarianship. I mean I bridged a funny time, but I started out loving books so I felt like my heart was in the right place so I could talk to a David Porter about his book collection and about rare books, and you know, lecture students about the history of printing, and, you know, do teaching of that sort, that felt so important for them to understand, that everything wasn’t just delivered on a computer. But, ah, you know it was just a really beautiful moment. Not … again, that there weren’t —- I had just taken over as the permanent Library Director before 9/11. I mean we lived through hard things that were happening in our country, but, um, it was still a great time. They were really good years. LG: So, what have you been doing since you retired? RC: Besides following my children and grandchildren around the country? Um, I mean, which keeps us very busy. But, in California I volunteered with an organization called World Reader, which … LG: Again, what? RC: World Reader, which distributes digital texts to countries in Africa and India. They partnered with Amazon and they sent Kindles and so could therefore download the texts. So, I did a variety of things but it was really fun for me because it was a small company full of youngsters. And there was one librarian on staff, and much less seasoned than I was, and so we did a lot of work in terms of, not actually cataloging but I wrote up a lot of descriptions of books and did a lot of, sort of busy work previewing things, and it was really fun for me. That was a great introduction to doing something that felt useful as a volunteer. Yeah. Also it got me out of the East Bay and into downtown San Francisco, which was really fun. So. But then my kids started having families and then we moved to Colorado. LG: Again to follow family? RC: Again to follow our girls. Yeah. I mean, we all sat down and had a, decided as a family we �were going to move together. And just before COVID I went to a lecture up in Special Collections in the library, in the public library, where … LG: The main … main library? RC: The main branch of the Denver Public Library, which is magnificent. It’s a beautiful, fabulous facility with a stunning collection of books. Um, and John and I were in there all the time anyway, just taking out books and movies. They had a great foreign film, um, collection. So I went to a lecture on artists’ books, which I had collected at Skidmore. That was actually, that was all about my being Director, but I could talk about my role as creating a collection of artists’ books at Skidmore. But … and at the end of that I went to the person who is in charge of the Special Collection and told him I would be interested in volunteering, and he was very excited and interested. So I did volunteer. And I’ve done a variety of projects. And, at the moment I have a very, very long term project which I’m loving, which is … they have two distinctive collections. They have many collections, but one is in a vault and it’s designated as very valuable books — so that’s the Audubon ele … you know, elephant folios, and … you know, North American Indian collect…, you know, incunabula. They have just amazing, amazing books. And then there’s a secondary collection which had been collecting over the years, much of it was gifts. And so I’m going through that volume by volume and assessing whether it should stay in the collection or be moved to the valuable collection or just be sent down for sale. And there are many hundreds of volumes, so I’m about two-thirds of the way through the, um, through the quarto books, the smaller of the books. And then I’ll move on to the oversized ones. So, I don’t go in often, but even … the main library is actually closed for renovation at the moment, and now a part of it is open, just a part of the first floor, but the Special Collection is up on the fifth floor. So I go up to the fifth floor and work at least once a week. Mostly once a week. Yeah. LG: I’d like to go back to something because you really didn’t talk about the artists’, um, collection. RC: No I didn’t talk about the Special Collections. LG: Yes, would you elaborate on that? RC: Yeah. And the only reason to, or the special reason to do that, I guess, is because when I started at Skidmore there was no Special Collections Librarian. There was a locked collection up on what was then the fourth floor, where I had my studio, and then there was the Steloff Collection, which had its own little room in the library before the renovation, and eventually they were integrated. But when I got there one of the things that I began doing was collecting artists’ books. And I managed, while I was there, to get an endowment of a quarter of a million dollars to maintain … from Sonny Stahl and the, um … now I’m forgetting the name of the foundation … um, to continue to collect that, book, and pretty much in those days Peggy …, that endowment did two things. It endowed my position to get me off of the Reference Desk at night and on weekends, so I could work a regular week, which allowed me to give access to that collection. Um, and I �began collecting artists’ books and built a very sizable artist book collection, both from the endowment and also it was matched in the early years by Peg Seiden, and then I continued to maintain that. When I left I took the full endowment and allowed that to be used to purchase books. By then we had a full time Special Collections Assistant, Wendy Anthony, who had a full time assistant, whose … Jane … whose last name I don’t remember anymore. So it was a way of bringing classes in to Special Collections to see this rich material. The artists’ books were used heavily by the Art Department. We had a small collection of classic texts from David Porter’s personal collection. I don’t know if they’re still there or not — I presume they are. Um, we had the Phyllis Roth vampire collection, which she used extensively to teach her, you know her vampire classes. You know there was a whole, we had, you know, an odd smattering of quite beautiful books. The Native American Indian book collection, which is worth millions. Um, we had one early Blake, which Sarah Goodwin would come up and use. Um, you know we really had, just, it’s kind of a hodge-podge of a collection, but I did my best to kind of enrich that collection and make it available and try to bring people in. So I would, um, you know the Celebration Weekend, I would do little, you know they had those presentations — I would do presentations up in Special Collections of some of the materials that we had. And brought classes in to do a little bit on the history of books, the history of printing, et cetera. I was very … I was very proud of that work. That was … I mean those are some of my really good memories. The teaching that I got to do, building that collection, um, which was a kind of counterbalance to IT in my life, because so much of my attention and my money was put into technology and into the library’s web page and into making really hard decisions about what we were purchasing, um, et cetera. So, having this precious collection of wonderful material that I could show students and let them understand that, this is the book that Shakespeare read that influenced the writing of Macbeth. I mean, that was pretty special. LG: Yup! RC: Yeah. LG: Anything else we should, um, include? RC: I mean not that I can think of. I’m glad we thought about the Special Collection thing because that was really important to me. No, I mean there was … a lot of changing in the staffing and that was inevitable, and … I, you know I feel like it’s a great library! LG: It sounds like there was an increasing participation of the faculty and their stu… and their classes in the course of your time. RC: Yeah. Well for one thing, students, you know in the old days you’d say to a student, you know, I want a bibliography. Go to the catalog and find five books and three articles, or, if you were lucky enough to find them in the library. But we certainly always had interlibrary loan, but, as I say the vast availability of material and the ability to discriminate what is important and useful became something that was very, very important. And then also I think Special Collections got used more and more because, �you know, it was very good for students to understand a little bit about the history of information and the dissemination of information. LG: When students first come on campus as first year students, um, there was an orientation in the library, was there not? RC: Not any more. Not for a very long time. Because they felt so much pressure, on the one hand, and also felt that, um, students during that orientation absorbed very little because they are so worried about who’s going to be their friend and who they’re going to sit with at dinner, et cetera, and, you know, as I saw … we did, for years we did it. I don’t think … maybe they’re doing it again, I don’t know, but we used to develop these little hunts through the library and little … but it was never required so sometimes they would come, sometimes they wouldn’t. Um, you know, and sometimes … I think we rely more and more on faculty bringing their classes in. And sometimes we sort of babysit the classes when the faculty have to go away and give papers, and it’s not our favorite way to do it but we’ll take ’em when we can get ’em. And then they all have peer mentors and sometimes the peer mentors, we would try to get the peer mentors to bring their groups of students in and have little projects for them to do. But I’m, again, I’m … seven years … eight years out from what’s going on now, so … . But we did our best, honestly, to train, to teach, to be part of the teaching mission and to give students access but also the ability to find the best material they could. LG: This has been fascinating for me to hear, you know, what has happened in the library over those many years, and the changes, even in the physical structure. Did you have any role with, I suppose, the architects who were planning how the building would look, you know? Do you remember? RC: I, you know, in the first round when Peggy was the Director and I was the Humanities Librarian, when we did the initial renovation, the big one, not the IT integration one, um, I had a lot of input into the Special Collections area because we were going to have the Pohndorff Room and then we were going to have an area behind that that was a work room that became my bindery and my book repair place. And for a long, for the first few years, I trained students to do book repairs with me up there, to make boxes, um, more than anything else. So I always had students up in Special Collections working with me. But I, and then eventually I got a part time assistant to keep the Pohndorff Room open because I was working as the Humanities Librarian and I wasn’t up there, I was downstairs. … That’s not true, I was up there one year during the interim year. So I did have input into that, with those architects. In the second round when we were integrating IT and renovating the library, yes, I worked really closely with the architects. Just … LG: And what kind of changes had to happen? RC: Well we needed to completely redo the lower level of the library to kind of dig out a big space for IT, and then we needed to redo the first floor of the library so that we could fit the Help Desk and other IT offices. And then there were some smaller renovations, and �then, truthfully, we needed to re-carpet. We shifted the entire collection; the entire library collection of hundreds of thousands of books, had to be shifted. LG: Did you run into some geology kinds of problems? RC: Um, in terms of weight and … or in terms of …? LG: Well I’m thinking, you know, when IT moved into that basement space, RC: Yeah. LG: Were there any issues about the ground, or? RC: No, I… no, I mean they had to blast. Everything’s built on stone, of course, but there was no water that we knew of, and that would have been really critical, that would have been a problem. LG: Because there was a lot of underground water in the area. RC: Of course, of course. No. No. The bigger problem was that the fourth floor, which we eventually put stack areas on, was not built for the weight and so I think that was one of the things that was taken into consideration during the first renovation, not the second one. The second one was modest by comparison because the building wasn’t gutted, but it was refreshed and changed enough to integrate this Department in such a way that it felt like the building belonged to them too. Like we weren’t going to just stick them off in the middle of nowhere, which is what some of the staff wanted. I think they really felt it was compromising the integrity of our staff to have another staff in that building. But sometimes it’s hard to share. But that was fine — I did all of that hard work and then I left, so it could all be blamed on me! [laughs] LG: Ruth thank you very much. RC: Yeah, it’s been a delight! LG: This has been a delight to hear. RC: Great! LG: And very, um, enlightening for me. RC: Great! LG: So thank you. RC: Yeah, you’re welcome. Thanks for coming and talking to me. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruth Copans Location The location of the interview Denver, CO Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit April 12, 2024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruth Copans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 22, 2023 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Ruth Copans joined the Scribner library staff in 1991, serving as the Humanities Librarian and overseer of Special Collections. During the library’s first renovation, Ruth was named the Library Director, and she oversaw the completion of that renovation, as well as the subsequent renovation in 2011-12, when IT was incorporated into the library building and electronic holdings were expanded. Ruth brought disparate and multi-disciplinary experiences to the library, from chamber music concerts to faculty talks about their interests outside of their research and teaching to printing services and music borrowing. Ruth turned the library into a welcoming meeting place for students and faculty and an accessible resource for materials, both in print and digitally. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Analog vs Digital Material Audubon Elephant Folios Carnegie Hall Musicians Chuck Joseph David Porter Electronic Resource Funding Helen Porter Library Renovation Marta Brunner Mike West Phil Glotzbach Phyllis Roth Pohndorff Room Reference Desk Sarah Goodwin Scribner Library World Reader Organization https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4aa1606f769de13066cd270aaa229517.jpg ed6e14a0b3ef95d0523cbc0de02a70d6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/0d216118c817b3b76c1ffb2b18e2eed0.m4a 6932b7a55735743226652e65c2ee3325 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f4404d93075421d6a13999df37183bea.pdf 387afcda2f0b0c35624f067937ff141f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d413b3241c02879c7db5913eb0097dd0.pdf 9d7c18904e4e7ed22fad4b336a896a07 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Emily Meagher Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Anzalone Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY 12866 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:05:49 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Anzalone Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 24, 2016 Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Emily Meagher Description An account of the resource Since September  1985, John Anzalone has been a professor of French at Skidmore College. An interdisciplinary scholar, Anzalone has taught in language, film, and the art of translation. He was centrally involved with Skidmore’s study abroad programs as well as the implementation of its Media Studies program in 2014. In this interview, he speaks about these endeavors as well as the broader experience of being a faculty member at Skidmore for over thirty years. Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Abstract A summary of the resource. Interview with John Anzalone by Emily Meagher, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, February 24, 2016. art history Curriculum Foreign Languages and Literature Interdisciplinary Collaboration International Students J-Semester Liberal Studies MALS Media Services Michael Arnush study abroad https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2ab4c359d1ca90e8d2e4720c040fb386.jpg cf0be52b1e3a65bd549f7b980d5157df https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/23a043a7a56c0cd112bb666e57dd40a7.m4a 6c08a1d3b7e9ff6e01e21bb8a7511fa9 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cd20cf47b101fbe701fbbd003f53b012.pdf e0b3f2d6b8ad6fd966e39d4741b9c600 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d2f206d62a9f79dcc9296fff14dc6653.pdf 7499c22945e5ab10e3325f007fe73e29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Maria Mayboeck Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chris McGill Joseph Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit November 19, 2018 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:28:47 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Chris McGill Joseph Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 26, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Chris McGill-Joseph joined the Skidmore workforce in 1987.  She has been a Skidmore wife, UWW student, Administrative Assistant, Skidmore parent, and Special Projects Manager, and she has long had a radio show on Sunday mornings on WSPN. In this interview she talks about the many transitions she witnessed - the move to the new campus, the adoption of technology, the arrival of men as part of the student body, and the opening of many new buildings.  She also touches on the mentoring she received throughout her career and reminisces about her role as manager of the Presidential Search process and administrator for the First Year Experience and the Middle States Association accreditation.   9/11/2001 Campus Move dean of faculty History Department Michael Arnush Pat Oles Peer Tutor Program Phil Glotzbach Phyllis Roth Tad Kuroda Technological Changes WSPN Radio https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2c81d6150c4abc2d54ba6725393d5488.jpg 341414fc182104c294b98fc2c06cd788 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/324e744cc9f459d1a19f5869a0f284e0.mp3 b40da13a5e271664e633b9c4c5585e76 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/fe5abf15b192ff1dabce32b1c3576057.pdf 6e47c40bbc3b5d4124475732cc412690 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/54db189cc8ded0ca44ebe52607593fe5.pdf 04ec4900f627aeba70125dde9bc5dd57 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jeremy Tenenbaum (Class of 2018) Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Zappen Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore college Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 55:25 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit April 23, 2021 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Susan Zappen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 26, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Susan Zappen came to Skidmore in 1995 as a head of Scribner Library technical services.  She was named Associate College Librarian for Collections in 2001. Susan was active in the greater library community; she was president of ENY/ACRL, and named “librarian of the year in 2006” by her associates. Susan, a technical director, dealt with how information was accessed and organized. Of course, the technological revolution changed the way this occurred. Susan not only accepted this change, but also leaned into it. Kathryn Frederick, Susan’s successor, describes Susan as the ultimate professional. In this interview Susan describes her work as a librarian, the library’s physical renovation and technological revolution, the communities in which she worked, and her favorite retirement activities.   Collections Diversity Intergenerational Faculty Relations retiree Scribner Library Skidmore History Tang Museum Technical Services https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/da56e949f889517d4697787f6e4605f2.jpg b902573a8f67163804d0536c7a8ffb6f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/6c4f648525e3a50121486853ff505ee1.mp3 d48a7e530579e7e2f4a2a873d173eb39 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/98996c034871adb0fa707abd363b6a91.pdf b9f9aa804e731dec9390d22996127377 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d87cc8b64e262cad9fe86eea1157a189.pdf d7e0ddb9888aabb0ce7ac144ea3e783e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Renato Dornelas (Class of 2018) Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leo Geoffrion Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit November 5, 2018 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:07:45 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Leo Geoffrion Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 26, 2016 Language A language of the resource English (en) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Leo Geoffrion joined Skidmore’s Information Technology staff in 1982 at a time when computer usage at the college was limited and its support staff quite small. Over the next 22 years Geoffrion oversaw the development of academic computing and functioned as the College’s webmaster.  In this interview, he describes the evolution of the College’s information technology infrastructure, as well as his work guiding and collaborating with faculty in the introduction of personal computing, the use of email, and computing across the curriculum. After his retirement in 2002, Geoffrion used his web skills to support the work of local community service organizations.   biology Code Blue Eric Weller Friends of Saratoga Springs Library J. Erik Jonsson Library Collaboration Media Services Technology in Education World Wide Web https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c219154feb5ef622bc50ab096650be78.jpg 9c7cdd19a9f42ed5c860f6a7f44ce02d https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/038c4d722f3bf0fc54912435826f9ca6.pdf e65e2c91b406dd1f90c479a2077da2a7 PDF Text Text Interview with Roy Rotheim by Lynne Gelber & Susan Bender (recording tech), Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, February 26, 2026 Lynne Gelber: This is Lynne Gelber. I'm here with Susan Bender to interview Roy Rotheim. It is the 26th of February 2026. Lynne Gelber: And I'd like to begin, Roy, by asking you where you were born, where you grew up, what brought you to Skidmore. Roy Rotheim: Well, okay, like everyone else I thought, I was born in Brooklyn. Lived there for three years. My father was a dentist. He came back from the war, had no patients, so he went to the baseball game and got tired of that. So took advantage of the GI bill and bought a house in Levittown, Long Island. Hicksville, actually, and opened up shop. So, at the age of three, I grew up in Hicksville, Long Island. Lived there until I was 17 when I went off to college. Told my parents to change the locks, I wasn't coming back. Went off to college, went to graduate school. Lynne Gelber: What did you major in in college? Roy Rotheim: Well, I was a zoology major. And I had to take a social science, none of which sounded interesting to me. One sounded worse than the next. It's a true story. I was in the library the day before registration and there was this really cute girl sitting across from me and she was filling out here registration form and she wrote down, "Economics. Tuesday, Thursday, 3:00." So, I wrote down, "Economics. Tuesday, Thursday, 3:00." Never saw her again. She probably saw me do it. But I walked in and it was like ... remember that movie, what was it? Jerry Maguire? You know, “You had me at hello”. I walked in there and I said, "Oh my God." And I switched from zoology to economics and been doing it ever since. Went right on to graduate school. Lynne Gelber: Where? Roy Rotheim: Rutgers. Got my doctorate. At 25 I was professor at Bowling Green State University for two years. That was loathsome. You could still sell autographed copies of the Bible, so you knew it wasn't a good place to live. Page 1 of 18 �I get a phone call from one of my professors saying, "Hey, I just got a call from a friend at Harvard and they're looking for somebody to teach radical economics at Franklin and Marshall and so I gave them your name." So, I get a call from Franklin and Marshall, and they hired me and I taught there for four years. I wasn't very happy with it so I got out of academia and I became a magazine editor. Challenge Magazine ... It is to economics what Psychology Today is to psychology. I lived in White Plains, did that for a year. Hated that even worse than academia, and so I said, "I better go back to academia." I applied for a number of jobs and got offers at Khan College, this place, and University of Maine. We just fell in love with Saratoga. Never looked back. I've been here since 1980. Lynne Gelber: So, since 1980, what have you been teaching? What were you teaching, and ... Roy Rotheim: My primary fields are Monetary Economics and the History of Economic Thought. That's basically what I've been teaching. I got in early. I was on a lot of committees within my first two years. I don't know how I kept getting elected to committees. I was on a Curriculum Committee, I was on CEPP, I was on CAFR, all within three years. I was heavily involved with the liberal studies program at the onset. Lynne Gelber: I want to back up. You got called by Skidmore and then were you interviewed? Roy Rotheim: I came up here, had an interview and then got an offer. Lynne Gelber: With? Roy Rotheim: A guy named Ted Reagan. Lynne Gelber: Ah, yeah. Roy Rotheim: I don't know, you may have known Ted. Just the most… Matter of fact, he was one of the reasons I came here. He was just such a mensch and I really, really liked him. So, I got a job offer and came in September. He resigned and Eric Weller called me into his office and he says, "Okay. Make me an Economics Department." I said, "What do you mean?" Page 2 of 18 �He said, "I want you to be the chair." I said, "Well, uh, I'm the youngest person in the department, I'm not even in the Economics Department building because I'm over in a music studio in Filene. I don't know anybody in the department." Go over there and ... that's how it all began. I was chair of economics on and off for 25 years. Except for about five when I chaired the Business Department. So, I was in administration a lot. Lynne Gelber: Was that an attempt to do something to the Business Department? To upgrade it or ... Roy Rotheim: Oh, the Business Department? Yeah, yes. [Where are your words, Roy?] When I got there, it still was the “department of secretarial studies and counter dusting”. In fact, one of the Economics Department's alums is Arturo Peralta Ramos III. Arturo was an econ major, and he and I became very close. The reason why he became an economics major, he wanted to be a business major, but they would not waive the typing requirement. That's where the business department was. Then they brought on someone named Jim Biteman and Colleen Burke, and they introduced what is now Wmby 107 and also strategy. But still, most of the department were a lot of MBAs who were mostly practitioners, and were not academics. I think the department ... As Skidmore got better and better and better even, business did not. Lynne Gelber: So, what did Eric want you to do when you took over? Roy Rotheim: Well, no. Oh, no, no. Eric wanted me to ... Well, the Economics Department only had like three or four people and he wanted me to turn it into a real department. So, that was my job there. For better or for worse. The Business Department was different. I really had to be, Tim Harper calls it, a "Change agent," which means you come in, you completely turn it upside down and you run as quickly as possible before they can catch you. Lynne Gelber: And were there people who really helped in the administration? Roy Rotheim: Phyllis. Phyllis was incredible. Susan Bender: Phyllis? Roy Rotheim: Page 3 of 18 �Phyllis Roth. She was the one ... see I lived next door to Phyllis. Phyllis said, "Come on over, let's have coffee." I didn't know what she wanted. She starts bitching and moaning ... can I say, "bitching?" Bitching and moaning about the Business Department, "My God, it's terrible! And it's an embarrassment. What are we going to do?" I don't know where she was going with that. I thought maybe she was going to actually ask me if she could appoint Sandy Baum to be chair and what was my opinion. After about 45 minutes of a lot of talking on her part she said, "So, will you go chair it?" I said, "I never took a business course. I never owned a business. I didn't have a lemonade stand, or a paper route." She said, "No. We need an administrator." It wasn't an easy job because I had a ... I walked into the office and had to start letting people go. We euphonimize, we don't let them go. I had to hire real academics, which is what Phyllis wanted. Problem is, that's going to be the highest paying job on campus and they weren't used to that. She wouldn't pay it. I said, "Well, look. Think about this, someone has her daughter walking through the English department and the tour guide says, 'This is our English department. It's one of the preeminent English departments of small colleges in the country. Okay, now let's keep walking. Oh, here's the Business Department. Oh, this is a real embarrassment, I'm sorry.'. I said, "Phyllis, if you want the Business Department to be at the same level as the English Department, you're going to have to pay for it." It was really funny because I walked out my back door, and her back screen door used to creak, and I heard the creak. All I saw was the head go out and she said, "Okay!" Then I went on a buying spree. I mean, I hired Mark Youndt, Ela Lepkowska-White, Pushi Prasad, Tim Harper. It was fantastic. Then I ran, I just ran away as quickly as possible to get back to the Econ Department. Lynne Gelber: So how long were you doing that? Roy Rotheim: Five years. I was at ... you were Associate Dean when I was there. Susan Bender: I was, yes. Roy Rotheim: Yeah. Lynne Gelber: So, you keep pointing to Susan. Roy Rotheim: Page 4 of 18 �That one. Yeah. It was interesting because to this day I don't understand what that means to be a business department. Lynne Gelber: So, when you went back to the Economics Department, what was your role and ... Roy Rotheim: I went back to be chair again. Yeah. Lynne Gelber: And were you also teaching? Roy Rotheim: Oh, yeah. Well, yes, although by that time I was teaching, was it still LS1 or maybe it was Human Dilemmas by then? Susan Bender: Liberal studies. Roy Rotheim: I was still teaching that andLynne Gelber: So that was Liberal Studies 1? Roy Rotheim: That's right. Then, talk about chutzpah, I actually taught a course in the Business Department, knowing nothing about business, where I helped students learn how to be small business consultants. So, because I was chair of the Econ Department, I had a two-course reduction, and because I was teaching LS1 and the course in the business department, I only taught one econ course. Lynne Gelber: Which was? Roy Rotheim: Oh, God knows. Whatever I taught, History of Economic Thought, Monetary Economics, Intro to Economics. Lynne Gelber: Okay. Page 5 of 18 �Roy Rotheim: Yeah. Pretty much. By that time the department was up to 10. We really expanded. Lynne Gelber: And what year was that? Roy Rotheim: '93. That's when I came back to the department. I was there from '88-'89 to '93. Susan Bender: Roy, can you talk a little bit about your engagement in Liberal Studies curriculum? Roy Rotheim: Yeah. We got this big ... Was it a Mellon grant? I forget, it was in the early '80s. I was on CEPP and Eric WellerSusan Bender: CEPP being? Roy Rotheim: The Committee on Educational Policies and Planning, which I chaired and got rid of the Liberal Studies program. We had to come up with something. We really didn't know what to do. I remember Eric was on the committee, Tom Lewis was on the committee, Mott Green. I don't know if that name rings a bell. He got a MacArthur scholarship. Okay? I remember Tom Lewis made a big presentation he wanted the entire LS1 course to just be Homer's Odyssey. He made a great presentation, but he wasn't persuasive. They didn't know what to do, so Eric came up with a committee of maybe 15 people. I can remember meeting over in Palamountain and we couldn't agree on anything. That was broken down into three groups of five and each of us had to bang heads and they couldn't come up with anything. That eventually whittled down to a group of three. A guy named Evan Rivers who wasn't around very long in the English department, Ron Fiskus, and me. I spent the entire economics’ entertainment budget at Gaffney's. We drank beer and wrote the LS1 curriculum. Then we came back and had to present it. It was Jeff Seagrave, Sheldon (Solomon), Phil Boschoff, old names that ... Kate Berheide. It was a great group. It was really fun. So, we came up with that, and then, of course, we had LS2, LS3, LS4. Lynne Gelber: Could you talk a little bit about the concept behind the Liberal Studies 1 curriculum? What the overview for the course was? What you were trying to accomplish with it? Roy Rotheim: Page 6 of 18 �Yes. It was an idea that there needed to be a foundational course that every first-term student took that would then infuse the entire curriculum over the full length of the curriculum. No matter how disciplinary any course was, they always had to have in the back of their minds that there was this interdisciplinary component that they should bring in as often as possible. That was quintessentially a liberal arts. Lynne Gelber: So, was this organized around a presentation by some professor to the whole group and then broken down into individual discussion groups? Roy Rotheim: The way it worked ... First of all, we had a text that was this big. You can't see this on tape, it was about eight inches. It was a loose-leaf. Every student had to buy it, I guess. Then we would meet twice a week in Gannett for lectures and then twice a week in our small groups of about 20 students. It was a dog and pony show. You gaveLynne Gelber: Which involved a lot of the faculty. Roy Rotheim: I'm sorry. It may have been three times a week, I think, we met in big groups. Lynne Gelber: I think it wasRoy Rotheim: Was it two? Lynne Gelber: Yes. I was involved in it Roy Rotheim: It was a four-credit course. It was great. Well, for me, it was great because I got to hang out with people I normally wouldn't get to hang out with. At the same time, the level of embarrassment that all of us had when none of us could understand anything that anybody else asked us to read. I can remember we had to read something by Aristotle, and Darnell Rucker in the Philosophy Department suggested it, and it was like reading Greek to me. I read it and read it. I knew every word, but no two consecutively made any sense to me. I struggled and struggled and struggled and finally came in and said, "Darnell, I got it," and I told him what I thought it was, and he said, "No, that's not it." So, that's the way it went. Sheldon would always give the first lecture. Susan Bender: Page 7 of 18 �Sheldon Solomon. Roy Rotheim: Sheldon Solomon would give the first lecture and I loved it. Not for the reason you might think. Lynne Gelber: As did the students. Roy Rotheim: Well, that was the issue. It’s that he would come in and, of course, say, "Fuck" a lot and they would all love that and say, "Lower than whale shit." He had a whole ... What they didn't know was he had a script because I heard him give it over the years and I could take notes and they were exactly the same. They would come in after that lecture and they'd go, "Wow! That was the best thing we ever heard. I can't believe it!" And I would say, "What did he say?" And they had no idea. I said, "Okay, welcome to college." I said, "This is not Entertainment 101. You don't sit back and put your arms up and get entertained. Did you take any notes?" "No." I said, "Well, all that's going to change." I said, "From now on, you come to work and you sit there and you get ..." I made every one of them buy a sketchbook. A hard-bound sketchbook, unlined, where they would take notes. We would come into class, and it was all because of Sheldon. Because he entertained them so much. The biggest problem with it was, is that, particularly younger faculty, were intimidated by it. They said, "We're out of our league. We can't do this. We know what we know. We've just come out of graduate school, but we can't do all this other stuff." So, it became a problem. Lynne Gelber: Were there other significant curricular or other initiatives that you had experienced while you were still teaching? Roy Rotheim: Well, significant curricular experiences? Lynne Gelber: Yes. Roy Rotheim: Well, we had LS2, 3, and 4, when I chaired CEPP and which, I'm afraid, we got rid of. Just because we couldn't afford it. We couldn't staff it. We couldn't afford it. It was really a matter of affordability. Page 8 of 18 �Lynne Gelber: Are there changes at Skidmore that you experienced in the course of your career? Roy Rotheim: What? Curricularly? Lynne Gelber: Not necessarily curricular, but changes in the campus or anything thatRoy Rotheim: Sure, of course. Physical structure? Lynne Gelber: Could be. Roy Rotheim: I was on some committee. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh! They were going to get a grant from, I forget which major foundation, to build two buildings. One behind the other. They were going to be academic buildings. It was going to be between Palamountain and Howe-Rounds. So, they got together a committee of all the departments whom they were going to move into that building. Psychology, History, it used to be, Chuck used to call it the Department of so-and-so Sociology, Social Work, and Anthropology. What'd I leave out? History, American studies? Susan Bender: Right. Roy Rotheim: Okay. And Economics for some reason. So, we met. We never got the grant. There was one building that we were going to design. That was amazing because we had a deal with an unnamed business manager who came in and announced that, "Well, we're going to have to violate some fire rules." And you should have seen Dave Burrow's face. We walked out, I mean, we walked out, you know. So, they had to renege on that. They said, "Okay. To save on money we're going to have to build offices that are 125 square feet." I said, "You can't have an office that's 125 square feet. You won't fit in a desk and a file cabinet and chairs." So, what we did was, is that we found a space that was 125 square feet and sure enough, we couldn't fit in anything, so they increased it to 144. I remember they spent a lot of time talking about the HVAC system. I remember going back to the Econ Department and they said, "Well, can we open the windows?" I said, "No, you can just close them." Page 9 of 18 �But here was the best part ... Oh! Then the architects wanted the building to go right up to the walkway to made a quad. And we said, "What's going to happen to those trees?" You know the trees. They said, "Oh, we'll tear them down." We said, "Over our dead bodies." And, so we made them recede the building. It was like taking away their first-born child. Then we said, "Okay, and the building's going to have a pitched roof." They said, "None of the other buildings have pitched roofs." I said, "Well, that's why you spend so much money on snow removal." So, we did that. But this was the best part, it’s that we spent all of our time designing this building and talking about the details, but then it came time for the final meeting with the architects. Who showed up but Joe Palamountain. He looked at us and he said, "Shut up." And he sat down and he rolled up his sleeves and he negotiated with those architects. We just sat and watched and that's how he got the building. Susan Bender: This was Tisch, right? Roy Rotheim: This is now Tisch, yes. Oh, oh and then there was another building, which Tom Lewis and I designed on the other side of Bolton. Which they didn't know what to call it so they called it convertible classroom building, CCB. What they were going to do is that they were going to have offices on the second floor, mathematics and eventually economics. Eric allowed us to move in there. On the first floor there were going to be freshman. The freshman trashed that building. Thousands and thousands of dollars, do you remember that, of damages? Lynne Gelber: Yeah, it was dormitory space, in other words. Roy Rotheim: Yeah, of damages. So eventually they put the computer center down there. Then, I guess, Bill Harder came up with money, somebody got money from him, so it became Harder Hall. Now, it was only supposed to be there for a couple of years, which was what, '25? Susan Bender: [inaudible 00:24:04]. Roy Rotheim: So, they just tore it down. That's physical. Academically? It's hard to say. The quality of the education has changed significantly. Page 10 of 18 �Lynne Gelber: And the composition of the undergraduate population. Roy Rotheim: People ask me that. They must ask you that so often. I say, "I don't know, they're the same." I had Matt, her son. Lynne Gelber: Who was an economics major. Roy Rotheim: And Rich Harwood. I had really good students then, and I have really good students now. So, in terms of that, no. The only difference, and I think it made such an important difference, is that we got more and more of an international student base. I can remember when I was doing, I guess by that time it was Human Dilemmas, I had a number of African students in the class. I can remember one of them, but there was more than one, just letting some of the traditional students have it about what's going on in the world. One student I remember from Mozambique stood up and gave this lecture to these students on what happened in Rwanda. So, they opened up the world to our students. If I had to say what was the most important change, I would say it was that one. Just the internationalization, is that a word? Lynne Gelber: We had a significant number of students from China. Roy Rotheim: Students from China, when I had to go explain you don't eat pizza with chopsticks, I had wonderful students from China. I had wonderful students from China. Yeah. Because I would have them when they were freshman mostly in Intro to Economics and they were not used to the American system. Particularly, a Skidmore liberal arts [inaudible 00:26:33]. Yeah. They were fantastic. All of the international students, they just changed the ... I don't know whether you experienced that also, but I did to a tremendous extent. A lot of them wanted to major in economics. Lynne Gelber: Give the time frame for that influx. Do you have a sense of when that is? Of international students. Roy Rotheim: '90s? I would say in the '90s, yeah. '90s, late '90s. Lynne Gelber: Yeah, late '90s. Page 11 of 18 �Roy Rotheim: Late '90s, yeah, I don't remember exactly. That was the most significant change, and for the better. Lynne Gelber: Roy, tell me what year you retired and what you've been doing since you retired. Roy Rotheim: Well, I retired in June of '22, but something I didn't tell you, I taught in the Honors Forum for a very long time. There was this program here called College Upside Down. Did you know about that? No? Okay. I had nothing to do with it. Where it was student influenced to a great extent. It was a whole curriculum. Lynne Gelber: What faculty. Excuse me. Roy Rotheim: I have no idea. Lynne Gelber: Oh. Roy Rotheim: It was before me. I have no idea. But it was a '70s thing. '60s, '70s thing. I have no idea. But one of the courses, which was called Citizen Studentship HF203, Honors Forum 203, that was on the books. It was taught by somebody, who I think was in the English department, but he didn't get tenure. Then it was taken over by somebody in the government ... The purpose of the course was really interesting. It was Aristotelian in the sense that the community is prior to the individual and the individual means nothing independent of the community. Basically, the students had to learn how to educate each other. They therefore felt citizenship in the educational process. It was passed onto somebody in the government department who was a bit of an autocrat and so didn't understand the concept of participatory democracy. I used to do a course like that back in the '70s in one of my first jobs. I was actually mentoring this autocratic professor. He said, "I can't do it anymore," he said, "would you do it?" I said, "Sure." So, I did that for 25 years or something. Lynne Gelber: And again, the name of this program was? Roy Rotheim: Well, the Honors Forum, but it was Citizen Studentship, which even the directors called "Student Citizenship." Page 12 of 18 �I said, "No, that's Knitting for the Needy. It's Citizen Studentship, you're a citizen first." Even though I retired in June of '22, I continued to teach it every fall. That one course. I did that for a couple of years and I think this is the first year I didn't do it. So, what have I been doing? I still do my research. Still do my writing. Lynne Gelber: You research in what field? Roy Rotheim: Actually, in two fields. In monetary economics but also in economic philosophy. I'm part of a group at Cambridge University called the Cambridge Social Ontology Group. They actually meet at 10:00 AM on Tuesday mornings. 10:00 AM Greenwich Mean Time. Lynne Gelber: Greenwich Mean Time. Roy Rotheim: Which means I'm there at 5:00 on Tuesday mornings. I go to the gym and I have six grandchildren who all live in Saratoga. I have been a part of raising them. And traveling, the usual. So, I've had very little to do with Skidmore. Lynne Gelber: Anything else that we missed that we should include? Roy Rotheim: God, I don't know. See, I taught at Franklin and Marshall before I came to Skidmore. I took a year off because, I just, academia ... I said, "This is not for me." It was uptight, it was pretentious. I said, "This is not me. I'm from Levittown." But I came here and the atmosphere, the culture, the environment was just so comfortable. I felt like one could learn comfortably here without all of the pretense and without all of the pressure. That's why I stayed. Lynne Gelber: And yet, you have experienced a lot of challenges along the way. Roy Rotheim: Most of which I can't share with you, yes. Lynne Gelber: Okay. Anything else we should add? Page 13 of 18 �Roy Rotheim: You know, I can't think of anything. I've worked with some fascinating people. Oh! I was involved in ... there used to be, do they still have it? Writing Across the Curriculum? English department invited me, because I was a magazine editor, invited me to be a part of that, which I enjoyed. Lynne Gelber: Do you know who started that? Susan Bender: Phil Boschoff. Roy Rotheim: Yeah, prob- no. I think it was Ralph Ciancio. Pretty sure it was Ralph. Yeah, Phil had something to do with that. Susan Bender: Phil Boschoff? Roy Rotheim: Yeah, but I think it was Ralph who spearheaded that. I'm pretty sure it was Ralph. I chaired all the major committees exceptLynne Gelber: Major committee like CEPP? Roy Rotheim: Oh, CEPP. Susan Bender: CAFR? Roy Rotheim: CAFR. Lynne Gelber: That's the Committee on Academic Freedom and Rights? Roy Rotheim: Yeah. I did that one. We met one year 72 times. Oh, God! I felt like I wanted to go back to law school after that. Page 14 of 18 �I was on CEPP a couple of times and I was elected and before I got onto the committee, they made me chair for the following year because they knew they were going to have to revise the curriculum. John Ramsey said, "You're the biggest wise-ass we know and therefore you'll be able to stand in front of the faculty and push this thing through." So, we actually changed significantly the liberal studies program. We changed it significantly. Really cut it down. Lynne Gelber: And CAPT? Roy Rotheim: No. Gail said she'd divorce me if I ever was on CAPT. Susan Bender: That's the ... Lynne Gelber: Committee on Academic, Promotions & Tenure. Roy Rotheim: Academic whatever they call themselves. Lynne Gelber: Promotions and Tenure. CAPT. Susan Bender: Appointments, Promotions, and Tenure. Roy Rotheim: But yeah, I was on CAPT with you two times, but we never met. So, I always told people, "If I'm on CAPT review, you'll be fine because we'll never meet." I chaired the ... I remember. There used to be something on business, the budget ... I forget the name of it, but we met with David Porter and Carl Broekhuizen. Lynne Gelber: Oh, was it Budget Committee? Roy Rotheim: Something like that because I remember they were dealing with revenue issues. What was the guy's name who was the director of admissions? Kent something? Lynne Gelber: Page 15 of 18 �I can almost picture him. Roy Rotheim: Yes, very thin, or thin. Anyway, I said to David Porter, "Just raise tuition." Lynne Gelber: Kent Jones? Roy Rotheim: Kent Jones. And I said to David Porter, "Raise tuition." He said, "We can't do that! We'll lose students!" I said, "No, you don't understand. Yes, you will. But you don't understand. Skidmore is probably one of the top second-choice schools in the North East. And if you ask students, 'Where'd you apply?'. 'Well, I applied to Colgate.' 'Did you get in?'. 'No, so I came to Skidmore.'" I said, "So, what that means is that you have a corner on the market, which means if you raise your tuition, yeah you're going to lose some students, but not by as great an amount as you'd be able to raise tuition." I said, "It's called elasticity of demand." And Kent, I had to do it with a rubber band to explain to him how to do it, and I think they did raise tuition. Oh, and then I said, "Then take the money, the extra money you get, and subsidize low-income students. So, you'll actually change the composition of the student body." They did, they got the extra money and then they bought a bunch of computers! Working with the different presidents was ... Lynne Gelber: So which presidents did you work with? Roy Rotheim: PorterLynne Gelber: When you started with Palamountain. Roy Rotheim: I'm sorry, Palamountain. Then David Porter, I still remember when he first came. We had an academic staff meeting at a place called, was it Dippikill? Somewhere up, not too far. His first Page 16 of 18 �wife, who was also named Helen, had just died. I remember taking a walk in the woods with him. An amazing person. You know. He was amazing person. A polymath, a mensch. Then I remember Jaime Studley. It's funny because I remember making an appointment with her and I brought a pot of tea and a couple of cups and I sat down and I said, "Jaime, stop fighting the faculty. That's what you're doing!" I said, "They love to talk," I said, "Just rope-a-dope them. Let them talk themselves out. Don't fight back." I can remember Phil. Phil was interesting to work with. Lynne Gelber: Glotzbach. Roy Rotheim: Yeah, he took a more corporate perspective, I think. It was at least my understanding, on how to run ... and I'm not criticizing that, to any extent. I think he had a big responsibility. There was a lot of building going on and there were financial issues and fundraising. And yeah, he did it. Then there was Marc. Lynne Gelber: Marc? Roy Rotheim: Marc Conner came in just as I was leaving, and I just was in awe of him. Just in awe of him. We got to know each other really well in a very short time. Worked with a lot of Deans. Lynne Gelber: For example? Roy Rotheim: Including her. Deans of Faculty? Well, there was Eric Weller. There was Dave Burrows, there was Phyllis of course, Phyllis Roth. Oh, there was a woman, what was her name? She was a scientist. She was the only numerate dean we ever had. She was a scientist, she was from NSF or something like that. You remember her name? Yeah. Yeah. She was numerate. She was much more difficult to work with because she could count to 10. And the English fellow. Whom I really liked but I can't remember his name. He's an art historian. Susan Bender: Michael Ore. Roy Rotheim: Page 17 of 18 �Michael Ore. I remember we'd go ... Anytime I met with a dean I would always, went with an agenda and actually hand it to them. A written agenda, it just saved time. He was such a good listener. I liked working with him because he would listen and take notes and then ask questions. He wasn't a ready, fire, aim type of a person. And I liked that. Yeah, I worked with Dave Marcell. I guess I was there a lot. Skidmore was very good to me. I have no complaints. I was very lucky. Lynne Gelber: Okay, anything else that we should cover? Roy Rotheim: No, I can'tSusan Bender: I think we kind of covered a lot. Thank you. Roy Rotheim: Did we cover whatever you wanted? No? Yeah. I can tend to be a little loquacious at times. Lynne Gelber: No, that was good. Thank you. Roy Rotheim: Yeah, well, good luck. You know. Susan Bender: Thank you, Roy. Roy Rotheim: You can turn it off. Page 18 of 18 � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/992427ca36868a47b60ad80f2f3c297d.WAV 3991e65f7904ac2cf500983de149be83 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber & Susan Bender Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roy Rotheim Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 41:53 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit April 13, 2026 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Roy Rotheim Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 26, 2026 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Roy Rotheim came to Skidmore in 1980 and retired in 2022. In those years he served as member and then chair of the Economics Department and chair of the Business Department. He played a significant role in the reorganization of the Business Department, the development of the Liberal Studies, Honors Forum, and Writing Across the Curriculum programs. Roy served on several major college committees, including CEPP and CAPT. In this interview he discusses the growing international diversity of the student body. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Business Department College Governance Economics Department Harder Hall Honors Forum International Students Liberal Studies Writing Across the Curriculum https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/94967903d2e10a03e2bc41a3a8bdcba8.JPG 557e9c36b8075307bd8a780349f72913 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/219f5b65bcaf1712a078dc114ebdd8d7.m4a aa62e98961651e1775e1ce236415aff6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b7a5948f9c56bcd2e743ad2edd17cc06.pdf 6245248b8ce1b11dc5709cbec67ce2fb PDF Text Text Interview with Murray Levith by Susan Bender & Leslie Mechem (recording tech), Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, February 26, 2026 Sue Bender: This is Sue Bender, interviewing Murray Levith for the Skidmore Retiree Oral History Project. It's November 4th, 2025, and we are in the Lucy Scribner Library on the Skidmore campus. Welcome, Murray. Murray Levith: Thank you. Sue Bender: Let's start by reflecting on your formative years. Where did you grow up and what was your childhood like? Murray Levith: I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and I was a pretty serious musician from about age six. I played in many orchestras. I thought that I might want to go to a liberal arts college rather than, for example, the University of Pittsburgh in my hometown, which was then a private university. And I went to Washington & Jefferson College. Washington & Jefferson had about 900 male students only, and it was a liberal arts college. I think it was founded by the Presbyterian Church in 1790, even older than Union College. I had a very wonderful experience there. I encountered in my freshman composition course Edwin M. Moseley, who eventually became chair of the English Department at Skidmore, Dean of the Faculty, Provost, and for a time Acting President. He influenced my whole career. I wasn't a very intellectual high school student. I hadn't read all the books that I was supposed to have read, but Edwin made them so interesting when I was a freshman in college that I did read them all. I had a very interesting coming to Skidmore College. I did a master's degree at the University of Nebraska because I wanted to be a poet at that time. And I wanted to study with Karl Shapiro, who was eventually what amounted to be the Poet Laureate of the U.S. And he was called the Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress and eventually that became the poet laureate position. And I had a good and personal relationship with him as a graduate student. I did a master's degree there in Lincoln, Nebraska, and I played the violin in the Lincoln Symphony as a professional violinist.We had some interesting soloists. For example, just before she debuted at the Metropolitan Opera, Leontyne Price played or sang with the Lincoln Symphony, but we also had Bob Keeshan, Captain Kangaroo, who was another performer with the symphony. From Lincoln, I went on to Syracuse University to do a Ph.D. The reason I went to Syracuse was because Edwin went to Syracuse. And there was a group of us at Syracuse who would come to Saratoga Springs and visit with Edwin and Kay. And I have always been so impressed with Edwin, but I wanted to mention something about Kay. When we came to their home for dinner from Syracuse, there was this plush green carpet, and in a corner was a blonde harp. Kay played Page 1 of 15 �the harp, and I was so impressed with that. I guess I was pretty provincial, but I thought that was the ultimate of sophistication. Back to Edwin, I did a book of Festschrift for Edwin in 1978, I believe, and I wanted to read the first paragraph of the preface to the book because it was my impression of Edwin as a teacher, and he was a teacher at Skidmore, too, in addition to being the other things. "Edwin M. Moseley himself exhibited a few of those significant gestures he told us were characteristics of American writers in the '20s and '30s. He would enter class, place his folder of notes on the lectern, unbutton the pocket watch from his lapel. We wore church keys, dangling from a string, in imitation, church keys being can openers, and take attendance. The South Carolina dialect rolled out to us as cultured, worldly, and exotic as any from Oxford in England. During the lecture itself, he sallied back and forth in front of us, explaining, asking, analyzing, provoking. He punctuated insights by smoothing his tie, lightly clapping his hands together, adjusting his jacket. He dressed immaculately. And doing what we called deep knee bends, like a pious man at prayer, he invoked the muse of learning with his wise and knowing incantations. Everything, absolutely everything was written on the blackboard. Significant words were connected with magical arrows. Lines bisected circles. X's and O's were meaningfully juxtaposed. At the end of the class hour, when the writing and diagramming was complete and the blackboard was filled to the edges, as was his coat with chalk dust, Dr. Moseley, with open hands, slapped the board and declare, 'It's all here. It's all here. It's all here,’ he would say again. It was for us, for sure.” Sue Bender: Lovely, and did Edwin have a role in your coming to Skidmore, then? Murray Levith: Well, that's another storyMurray Levith: ... yes. Sue Bender: ... another story, thenMurray Levith: Okay. Sue Bender: ... how you came to Skidmore. Murray Levith: I came to Skidmore three weeks into the semester in 1967. My predecessor was a member of the International Explorers Club. He was an Australian, and he left to lead an expedition to the North Pole for Bulova Watches. This sounds like an unbelievable story, but my son, who has written a memoir, has actually talked to this man's son. The man's name was David Humphreys, and so Page 2 of 15 �here was the situation in 1967. Humphreys, three weeks into the semester, left Skidmore. Edwin was the Dean. There was a new chair of the English Department, Tom Goethals, who had come from Sarah Lawrence College, and at Columbia, one of his good friends was John Deal, who was on my dissertation committee at Syracuse. John called Tom Goethals, inviting him to a party at Syracuse, and Tom said, "Oh, I can't come. I have to find someone to plug into this person that left." So here is Murray Levith, whose mentor was Edwin Moseley as an undergraduate, who went to Syracuse University because Edwin Moseley made a call and I got a part-time instructorship. Back in those days, that's what happened. And so anyway, Edwin called and said, "Come over." This was on a Wednesday. I had a perfunctory interview with him on Thursday. On Monday, I was teaching The Faerie Queene, and the doors at the English Department at Regents Street were open. Miriam Benkovitz was in one room listening, Alberta Feynman was in the next room listening, and Julia Hysham was in the third office listening to me about The Faerie Queene. I guess I passed, and was at Skidmore for 41 years. Sue Bender: Can you describe what the college was like when you arrivedMurray Levith: Yes. Sue Bender: ... in 1967? Murray Levith: Yes. I think that Edwin was instrumental in trying to take the College from a, and I don't think the faculty would have said this, but from a finishing school for women to a real academic institution, a liberal arts college. And Tom Goethals was hired to make the English Department more academic. He had been at Harvard for his PhD. He was a novelist, he was a scholar, and although the women in the department then, I think, were good scholars, Miriam Benkovitz was a PhD from Yale, Alberta Feynman from Columbia, Julia Hysham from Columbia, the tone was not as academic as it might have been. And the first three young men that were hired by Tom Goethals were Mark Gelber, Don Stoddard, and Murray Levith. The town [Saratoga Springs] was a disaster. You could buy one of the mansions on Broadway for about $35,000. The best restaurants were The Golden Dragon and D'Andrea's downtown. There was also one strange one called Willie Rum's where the drinks were from Mason jars, water from Mason jars. So it was kind of, sort of, not so upscale as it is now. The College, for me, was wonderful. I was a very young man in a college that was all women. I had been to a college that was all men, and our dating college was at that time Chatham College, which was in Pittsburgh, 90 miles away. We used to drive back and forth on the weekends. It was kind of dangerous. So anyway, this was something that I had to ask Edwin about. And so I asked him, I said, "What's the policy on dating students?" And he said, "Don't make the front page of The Saratogian." Sue Bender: Page 3 of 15 �A different time. Murray Levith: A very different time. So I waited until she graduated, and then we started dating, and in December will have been married 53 years. Sue Bender: She being a Skidmore student? Murray Levith: She being a Skidmore student whose mother was a Skidmore graduate in the Class of 1940, and whose father was a Union College graduate. So there's a long tradition here. Sue Bender: And what was the physical campus like at that time? Murray Levith: There was one... I think the tower was up in the library. Sue Bender: On the North Broadway campus. Murray Levith: On North Broadway, but it was all downtown. Sue Bender: Okay. Murray Levith: I had an office at 43 Union Street, which for a 28-year-old assistant professor, or at that time I was an instructor, hadn't finished my PhD yet, was really amazing. And I could teach whatever I wanted to, and so I had done my dissertation in the 17th century and had studied English literature from what was called the Early Modern Period. And Shakespeare was a special interest of mine, and so I replaced, eventually in a year or two Alberta Feynman, who was the Shakespeare person. There was another woman, Deborah Kifer, whose husband was in the History Department, who was also a Early Modern specialist, and I don't know the background to this story, but somehow she either didn't get tenure or didn't get reappointed or something. So I was in that slot as a very young person, and I didn't finish my dissertation until 1970, January 1970, when I became an assistant professor. And then I got another contract and I got tenure and things went from there. In my first two years at Skidmore, I played the violin in the Albany Symphony, and Frank Carver, who was in the Music Department at that time, who was a flute player, we would go down to Albany for two rehearsals before the concert. But with a full Page 4 of 15 �load, and I should mention loads in a minute, but also these rehearsals in Albany, I played for two years and then I played in the Skidmore Orchestra for about 20 or 25 years. I also played in a trio with Dick Speers from the Math Department and Helga Doblin from the Language Department. And then, so everything was terrific for me, and then came Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, the Student Strike, Bobby Kennedy on campus, Bernadette Devlin, the troubles in Ireland, she came to campus, Kent State. A lot of big troubles in America as well as on campuses. Regis Brodie was a professor in the Theater Department, and he asked his studentsSue Bender: Wasn’t Regis in Art? Murray Levith: ... oh, I meant, no, Alan Brody, I'm sorry. Sue Bender: Alan Brody, okay. Murray Levith: Alan Brody, not Regis. Thank you. Regis was also from Pittsburgh. We had a contingent of Pittsburgh people at Skidmore, but Alan Brody asked his students to grade themselves. Michael London, who was in the English Department, gave everybody an A. This was during the strike. Sue Bender: And that was in support of the students? Murray Levith: Support of the students, yeah. Sue Bender: For striking? Murray Levith: For striking. They were in the Administration Building. There were all kinds of demonstrations on campus, and so on. It was a very volatile time, and the professors and instructors had to make decisions about how they were going to grade the students at the end, what the class policy was for coming to class, and so on. It was a very difficult time. Sue Bender: Who was the president then? Murray Levith: Page 5 of 15 �This was Joe Palamountain, and believe it or not, Joe Palamountain would come to me and ask me to write letters. Let me give you one example. There was an orchestra composed of people from the community, and Skidmore people from the Music Department and other departments. And a couple of these people from the community were kids who were serious musicians, and Frank Carver was the conductor. And he made some comment to one of the kids that, "You weren't playing on time," or, "You were out of tune," or something. And so this child's mother called Joe Palamountain and said, "You can't do this," and it really upset this little boy. Not so little, maybe 16 or 17. And so Joe came to me and said, "Write a letter to this lady and I'll sign it." And so I told the story of when I was in the Pittsburgh Youth Symphony. Karl Kritz, who was the associate conductor of the Pittsburgh Symphony, was our conductor, and he had a cat. And he would bring the cat to rehearsals, and if we weren't playing just right, he would pick up the cat by the scruff of the neck and throw the cat against the wall. The cat loved it. And so I wrote the letter and never heard anything more, but that was just one letter. There were other letters that he asked me to write as well. Sue Bender: What kind of leadership did Edwin provide the faculty in those tumultuous times? Murray Levith: I was not... At that point, I was a very young professor, so I really didn't know. I wasn't on CAPT at that time or some of the major committees. And so I eventually was on CAPTS it was called. I was the chair of CAPTS, in fact, and I was on many committees. Sue Bender: Okay, and just for clarification, CAPT is the Committee on Appointment, PromotionsMurray Levith: Promotions and Tenure. Sue Bender: ... and Tenure and Sabbaticals. Murray Levith: ... and Sabbaticals, but it was CAPT first. No sabbaticals on the end of that, and I had... Well, I'm going off. I mean, bring me back, but I had wonderful sabbaticals. Sue Bender: We will talk about them. Murray Levith: Okay. So anyway, we're talking here about the difficult times, and also this was a time of coeducation at Skidmore, and that was difficult, too. We were on a 4-1-4 program with a winter term in the earliest days of co-education, and this was a way of bringing male students from Page 6 of 15 �Colgate and other places to intermix with the Skidmore students to do on-campus and offcampus things. Of course, I liked the winter term a lot because it gave me a chance, and this was in the very early days, to do foreign study courses. I was among the very first persons to take a group of students to England, and did that a number of times myself and also once with Mac Oswalt from the Psychology Department. We studied Freud in Vienna, and then applied Freud to the drama in London was that particular course. I also did a course in mysticism in literature for 4-1-4. That was an on-campus course. But what happened, and this often happens, I think, in newer programs, I think it happened also in the liberal studies program, is that people get tired of it, the new thing. And that happened with winter term, and my sense was that some professors and some students were taking advantage of winter terms that were not as academic as they might have been. Just as a little aside, when I went to college, the semesters were 16 weeks, and you could read a lot more books in 16 weeks than 13 weeks and get a lot more instruction. And I think that things have been, I don't know, shaved down too much. Tom Goethals turned the English Department into a more academic department, but Bud Foulke, who came in and stayed for a while, really shaped the English Department with its committee structure to be a happy place. I had I can't imagine a better career than at Skidmore College during those days. I think those days are over now, but the faculty really shaped things. They shaped the curriculum. They shaped the academic attitudes. All kinds of good things happened during the time that I was here. I was on the Presidential Search Committee, which found our first female president, Jamie Studley. People still come up to me and say, "What did you do? How did you do that and why did you do that?" And my answer to that, and it was a very good committee, I should say. Who was on that committee? Bill Dake. There were a whole bunch of people, including faculty people that were elected from the faculty. Tom Denny was the other faculty member. You can only hire what's in front of you, and what happened was she was the best, I thought, and the committee thought the best that was in front of us. She didn't turn out to be the best for Skidmore. However, to compensate, we got David Porter. I'll never forget going to Swarthmore College to look at Swarthmore College with my older son. And David had gone to Swarthmore, and following that I think he went to Princeton. So we're sitting there in the admissions office, and the person said, "Our college is often confused with a women's college in New York." I'll never forget that. Our son went to Haverford instead. But anyway, sabbaticals? Sue Bender: Sure. One thing before we leave sort of your early years here, if you could describe a little bit what it was like as the college moved and the faculty moved from the old campus downtown to the new campus, and also at the same time that the college was going co-ed, right? Murray Levith: Yes. Sue Bender: So two big changes happening at once. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how those things affected your work and the life of the students on campus? Page 7 of 15 �Murray Levith: Sure. We compared ourselves with Vassar, and we said that Vassar stooped to accept men that were not up to the women's standard. However, and I don't know where this claim came from, that we accepted men who were equal to the women. Now, I don't know if that's true, but that's what was said on campus. I found the men in my classes just as good as the women, some even better, and there were... The women in the early, well, in about 1970, '71, were terrific. In fact, the college's reputation was not as good as the students were. And I think that's happened all through Skidmore's history. You know, we're in a great town, we have a great, beautiful campus. We've had good leadership and we've had alums. We look at the Science Center, we look at the Wellness Center. We look at the buildings on campus, and there's no Porter building. There's a Porter Greek-style theater. Someone should do something about that. He was fabulous, and this is a nice segue into sabbaticals. Sue Bender: Okay. Murray Levith: My first sabbatical, I was newly married, and this was to Germany. The community at Skidmore was terrific. Helga Doblin and Rudy gave me their house in Germany rent-free, gave us their house rent-free in Grossweil, and their car, and their Fiat, which I immediately totaled in a special way by... They had a slope into the driveway and they had a metal garage door, and I managed to slide into the garage door, smashing the front of the car. But they forgave me, apparently, but other people have benefited from their house in Grossweil. For example, Paul Hockenos, who was just on campus, Warren and Ann and their family stayed in the same house. Dick Speers stayed in the same house. It was very interesting for me to be there, especially as a Jew in a place where Helga pointed out all the Nazis in the town. And I went to the Gartenschule and learned some German, enough German to converse, as did Tina. In fact, the teacher always said, "Frau, immer besser," always better. She passed back the exams. But anyway, it was a wonderful experience for us, a great experience. That was the first sabbatical. I produced a book, Shakespeare's Names. It's what's in Shakespeare's names, and the book was published both in England and America, and then 2021, it was republished and is currently available. Second sabbatical was to the People's Republic of China, and I think that my foreign study courses at Skidmore and the Germany experience allowed me to apply for positions to teach in India and China. India eventually came through, but they came through after China. And we were so fortunate. We had a 10-year-old and an eight-year-old, and I was a foreign expert and Tina was a foreign teacher. She had been a high school teacher. And we spent sabbatical there with our kids, and this was when China was opening up, Deng Xiaoping, and this was just before Tiananmen in 1989. Sue Bender: You were at Qufu University? Page 8 of 15 �Murray Levith: Qufu Normal University. Qufu, the city, was Confucius' hometown, so there was the Confucian Mansion, the Confucian Graveyard, and in the graveyard, we discovered that my 10-year-old was fluent in Mandarin because we went on a picnic to the graveyard. And there was this old guy in a kind of military kind of coat, and all of a sudden, they were having a conversation in Mandarin. We put both of our kids in the Chinese school, but we also took the textbooks from Lake Avenue, which was the elementary school then, and we sort of homeschooled them during the two-hour break during that period. And they had... They say... We thought our younger son had a terrible experience because he was shy and he was eight and they were fighting in school in between the classes. But he says now that it was a wonderful experience, and we knew that our older son, who now is in the government, in the Foreign Service, his... had a great experience, too. And we did, and I published my second book. I did the galley proof. This was Shakespeare's Italian settings and names, so it was published by Macmillan in England and St. Martin's in the U.S. And so I not only taught the students, who were wonderful students, some of them spoke English so well, never having been out of China. And so that was the second sabbatical. Sue Bender: One, before we talk about your other sabbatical, could we follow up on the Qufu University connectionMurray Levith: Sure. Sue Bender: ... [inaudible 00:37:39]? You were the first of the Skidmore professors to teach at Qufu, but didn't other folks follow you? Murray Levith: Yes, actually, Tina and I organized the programSue Bender: Right. Murray Levith: ... and it went on for 20 years. In the last few years, Sandy Welter took over. She had been there as a teacher, and so it was a program that was... I guess it was sort of official and nonofficial. It didn't seem to become an official program in the sense that other foreign programs were. But I thought that it really.... Well, I can give you a few examples of people who've gone on. Claude Brodesser became a journalist afterwards. He's married to Taffy Brodesser-Akner, the novelist, who writes for The New York Times. So students had an experience there that they otherwise wouldn't have had after graduating from Skidmore. And it was a good time in China. There were two universities we were affiliated with. One was Qufu Normal University, and the other was the University of Petroleum, which was a Page 9 of 15 �scientific university. But Dave Marcell, David Porter, and I went over to China, and the president of Qufu University came over here in a delegation both ways. David Porter was wonderful. I found out all kinds of things about David Porter on this trip. For example, he was an authority on Oriental rugs. Did you know that? Sue Bender: No. Murray Levith: In Hong Kong, we went from one rug place to another. But the thing that I remember there is I don't like heights very much. Is it acrophobia? Is that? Sue Bender: Mm-hmm. Murray Levith: Yeah, and one of the sacred mountains in China is Mount Tai, and you're supposed to go up to Mount Tai. And there's this big rock that leans over a gorge, and you're supposed to go over when the sun is coming up. And so we hiked up, we went to this big rock, and I was panicked. David Porter held my hand up there. And it was a good time to also be personal with Dave Marcell, who I had known, who I think was at Skidmore maybe in '66 or '65. I'm not exactly sure, but I think he was just before me. Bill Brynteson was another History Department person. But anyway, I got to know there was a real community, and I thought every place was like that, and soon found out no place was like that. But anyway, and along the way, and ISue Bender: Could I just have aMurray Levith: Sure. Sue Bender: ... quick follow-upMurray Levith: Sure. Sue Bender: ... question? And on the Qufu programMurray Levith: Okay. Page 10 of 15 �Sue Bender: ... now, faculty went to teach there, but you mentioned students. I didn't realize that students were... that that program created opportunities for the students. Murray Levith: For students. Yes. Sue Bender: How did that work? Did students go over to teach? Murray Levith: Yes. Sue Bender: Aah. Murray Levith: China was very interested in getting Native American speakersSue Bender: Okay. Murray Levith: ... and what they would teach, it was called Speaking and Listening. And we oriented them. Tina and I basically talked to them about what they were supposed to be doing, and they were getting teaching, actually, teaching experience when they were doing that. And faculty also went over, business faculty. I'm trying to think of... Oh yeah, education faculty, art faculty, and there were exchanges that were done because faculty from Qufu came to our place. And we also tried to get students from China to come, and at that time we couldn't do that. It wasn't allowed. And we had minders, people who were watching us to make sure we weren't doing the wrong thing. And I remember teaching Tess of the d'Urbervilles, and there was a knock at the door. And a student monitor, they had monitors there, they're sort of the head student, usually a Communist Party person, said, "We were upset when you mentioned something that was not quite polite." And it had something to do with Tess, if you know the novel. But anyway, and it was great fun. I mean, we played basketball, we had all kinds of interactions with students, and even interactions with students who eventually came to the U.S. to study. Sue Bender: Wonderful. Terrific experience sounds like. Murray Levith: It was. Page 11 of 15 �Sue Bender: Yeah. Did you have other sabbatical experiences that you wanted to share? Murray Levith: Well, I also went to Cape Cod for a year, and I was working on a book then as well that I could have done anywhere, but my brother-in-law and sister-in-law are in Cape Cod, and so we rented a house and... Sue Bender: So is that sort of all part of your sense of the way in which Skidmore was supporting faculty scholarship? Is thatMurray Levith: I would say this. My scholarly production would not have happened without my colleagues, my English Department, the happiness that was here at that time. You know Creative Thought Matters, that slogan, I was a provincial kid from Pittsburgh, and the world opened. It was, I couldn't have had a better... This is what I wanted to do. I mean, how many people get to do what they want to do? Sue Bender: That's wonderful. Well, those are all wonderful stories, and it sounds like a really productive, happy career here at Skidmore, but as we all know, life of a faculty member is never unidimensional. Murray Levith: That's right. Sue Bender: So are there any significant challenges that you experienced for the college, for teaching, sort of governance here at the college? What were some of the major challenges that you recall along the way? Murray Levith: Well, I mentioned one already, the presidential search. Also, the English Department had some flare-ups. We had times when there were a bunch of people up for tenure, and there was even someone who sued the English Department. Is that me? Sue Bender: Mm-mm. Murray Levith: But anyway, and I know that Ralph [Ciancio] and Bud Foulke were involved in things that were done outside of the college that they had to do and answer for. But I thought during... As much Page 12 of 15 �as I knew, I thought things were very fairly done, and I think that Bud Foulke deserves a lot of credit for this because of the Curriculum Committee, but especially the Personnel CommitteeSue Bender: Is that Departmental Curriculum [inaudible 00:48:28]? Murray Levith: ... Departmental, Curriculum, and Personnel Committee. But the thing, too, is we got to teach what we wanted to teach. I don't think people were forced into situations, except in one instance. We divided Composition into three parts, 103, 105, and 107. We gave a test right at the beginning, an essay test, and put some of the more giftedSue Bender: A test for the first-year students. Murray Levith: ... first... Yeah, first-year students to see the skills, the writing skills of the first-year incoming freshmen. And so we separated some out who were already good writers into one 107, and then people that needed extra help were in 103. Now, Bud's idea was that everyone in the department would teach 103. So this was an important kind of thing to do. So Mimi Ciancio and I were there in line, and we were teaching 103, and we looked behind us and there was no one in back of us. We were it for the first couple of years. No one wanted to teach the students that needed extra help, and most of the students in Composition were in 105. But we had some just excellent students, students that went to grad school, that became professors and so on. Yeah, so that was one of the downers, but I never was asked to teach anything that I didn't want to. Sue Bender: That's an important plus for a faculty member inMurray Levith: EspeciallySue Bender: ... [inaudible 00:50:48]. Murray Levith: ... in English. Yeah, I know that Ralph Ciancio taught at Carnegie Tech, which is now Carnegie Mellon, and it was the Service Department. There were no English majors there. Sue Bender: And English, how would you assess English's position among the departments at Skidmore? Page 13 of 15 �Murray Levith: Well, Edwin was hired as the chair of the English Department and quickly... I think it was Josephine Case decided that he should be Provost or a Dean of... No, Dean of the Faculty, and then he got to be Provost. And there was a dustup with Edwin because Joe Palamountain gave him tenure without going through the faculty. And it was a big, big, big to-do because at that time, the faculty, there weren't as many administrators, and the faculty were running things, you know? Sue Bender: Wouldn't happen today. Murray Levith: No. Sue Bender: So are there any other memories that you would like to share with us of your time at Skidmore? Have we covered all the topics you wanted to? Murray Levith: Right. Let's see. Yeah, the opportunities to teach in England, Richmond College, at ASE, where in addition to the two summers, I taught for a semester forSue Bender: And ASE is? Murray Levith: ... is Advanced Studies in England, the Bath program. Sue Bender: Mm-hmm. Murray Levith: And let's see, what else? That's about it. Sue Bender: It sounds like a very rich and rewarding career, Murray. Murray Levith: It was, and it goes on. I'm working on aSue Bender: That's what I wanted to ask you. Page 14 of 15 �Murray Levith: ... I'mSue Bender: Since retirement, what haveMurray Levith: ... right. Sue Bender: ... we been doing? Murray Levith: A long time ago, I started a book about two of my professors, one from Nebraska and one from Syracuse. Two poets, mid-Century American Jewish poets, Karl Shapiro and Delmore Schwartz. I started this book 35 years ago. I was in classes with both of them, and I'm now on the last draft chapter of the book, and I've also taught probably a dozen courses for ALL, which isSue Bender: Academy for Lifelong Learning. Murray Levith: ... and for lifelong learning. And I'll be teaching one this winter on John Steinbeck. Sue Bender: Lovely. So it sounds like your literary studies did not retire when you did. Murray Levith: Well, I really loved what I was doing. I loved the scholarship and I especially loved the teaching, and it's nice to teach senior students who read the material very carefully. Sue Bender: Absolutely. Well, this has been lovely. I really have enjoyed hearing your reminiscences and learning things that I didn't know about. We really appreciate your time with us. Thank you, Murray. Murray Levith: Oh, thank you. I enjoyed it, too. Page 15 of 15 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Susan Bender & Leslie Mechem Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Murray Levith Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview 54:49 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 20/04/2026 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Murray Levith Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 26, 2026 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Murray Levith joined Skidmore’s English Faculty in 1967, directly from his graduate studies at Syracuse University where he earned his Ph.D. In this interview, Levith describes the impact that Edwin Moseley had on his career, shaping his path to Skidmore, along with his scholarship and teaching. Levith’s experiences at Skidmore spanned the institution’s move to its “new” (North Broadway) campus as well as its transition to coeducation. He reflects here on the many opportunities that Skidmore afforded him throughout his career to conduct scholarship and teach in international settings. Chief among these was his was his pivotal role in nurturing and maintaining Skidmore’s affiliation with Qufu Normal University in China. Levith’s reflections provide perspective on the many changes that the College has undergone in the last 60 years. Since his retirement in 2008, Levith has continued teaching with the Academy for Lifelong Learning and maintained an active research agenda. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History 4-1-4 curriculum Advanced Studies in England (ASE) Bud Foulke coeducation David Porter Edwin Moseley Jamie Studley Joseph Palamountain Presidential Search Committee Qufu Normal University Richmond College https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3309b3175f7e17c5352edda56f6403c9.pdf 2ea434331260016392b6256f88fc5c29 PDF Text Text ipspr . . . T H E N E W S first—all of it, and both aidos of it—ia Tha Saratoglan's ooal. 1 •ll '«"••• " - "^^ltJ • " J " V Senate Adopts Cloture o n ML '•«" / Prohibition THE SARATOGIAN SPRING buy«<"» ff% watching tha advertising column* of Tha Saratogian for •Happing hints. And the Saratoga Sua, News, Balktoa Sp» Daily News and Hudson Valley Times. SARATOGA SPRINGS. N. Y., MONDAY. FEBRUARY 28. 1927. THREE CENTS Fourteen Pages NEW SERIES. VOL. 6S. NO. 41 «S&K> GOVERNMENT WINS DOHENY OIL CASE SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS FRAUD CHARGE, ORDERS SURRENDER OF NAVAL LEASES LOUIS H. CRAMER, &MEDLEY BUTLER Cooper in "Lost Letter" BUSINESS EXPERT, ORDERED TO CHINA Sought Trap for Bootlegs; FINANCIER. DEAD TO HEAD MARINES Impeachment Hearing Closed Was President of The G. F. Brigadier General Will Com- mand Forces in Asiatic SENATE ADOPTS Britain Accepts Coolidge Waters. AGREEMENTS WERE A T SHANGHAI CLOTURE RULE ON TAINTED BY FRAUD ACTIVEPreparations Continue Federal Judge Frank Cooper of New York to R. O. Merrick, a Invitation to Parley on Defense Army PROHIBITION BILL DECLARES COURT —NorthernStand to Make Limitation of Armaments Votes to Shut Off Debate, and Fall Leasing Policy Held Hie* AMERICAN FORCES Prevent Filibustergal—Corruption Charge WASHINGTON, Feb. 28. (/P)—Great Britain's response ing/ i Upheld. to the American overture for further naval limitation, received ___ IN NICARAGUA TO * ^ . ^ - ^ WILL FORCE A VOTE at the State Department today accepted President Coolidge. | W A S H I N G T O N . F e b . 2 8 . ( e P ) — A certified c o p y of a letter d a t e d N o v . 17, 1 9 2 6 , purporting to h a v e b e e n sent by p r o h i b i t i o n agent, in w h i c h w a s o u t l i n e d a p l a n to entrap b o o t l e g g e r s , w a s read t o d a y b e f o r e the H o u s e judiciary c o m m i t t e e i n v e s t i g a t i n g i m p e a c h m e n t c h a r g e s against the j u d g e . <v u Action Favored by Andrews and Anti-Saloon League. WASHINGTON, Feb. 28 OP) — The cloture rule limiting debate was Invoked by the Senate today to force action on the prohibition and customs reorganization bill put forward by the administration. Assistant Secretary Andrews backed the measure which also has the support of dry organizations. Some of the west in the Senate also favored it while others threatened a filibuster against it. Tne vote was 53 for cloturo and 27 against, or one more than the required two-thirds majority. Senator Copeland, Democrat, New York, voted for cloture, while Senator „Wadsworth, Republican, New York •opposed it. Today's action marked tha fourth time: tha^Benate has &a*Te*& t 0 r e " Strict Its debate and only on one previous occasion has a domestic question been involved. That was in the discussion of the McFadden branch banking bill. , The Senate declined to limit debate on the $125,000,000 public building bill defeating a motion to apply the cloture rule to the measure. * The refusal to adopt cloture, even If it prevents passage of the bill at this session will not affect the first year's program for / public buildings. Treasury officials have taken into consideration possibility (Continued on Page Two) Flashes of Life BY T H E A S S O C I A T E D PRESS Through a loan of $2 from a bank a peachy dog hguse Is to be provided for the best dog in the world. Toward buying the house Otto Szant, 12, of West Orange, N. J., had saved up $3.29 and he requested a loan of $2 on a note for three months with six per cent Interest to be repaid from earnings after SQhool hours. He did business right with the bank's president. Giving the orders for the deal President Van Ripper said: "Security is initiative, confidence and personality." Crime costs the U. S. at least sixteen billion dollars a year, It Is estimated by Mark O. Prentiss In the Manufacturers' Record. The estimate Includes commercial frauds, loss of property, cost of law enforcement and economic waste without attempt at graft figures. WDEBS Is to be a voice on the air 'of criticism and warning, of peace and progress, if alms of Socialists are realized. They are planning a fund of $250,000 to erect a broadcasting station as a memorial to Eugene V. Debs. Of several score of lake freighters blockaded last December In the lower channel of tha Straits which connect Lake. Superior and Lake Huron, It • till await the coming of spring, although they have been safely tied up for the winter. British charge d'affaires in Nicaragua announces If necessary. "Great Britain will recognize the Diaz regime already recognized by the TTnlted States." Premier Ibanez of Chile announces all judges who fall to mete out justice will be deported. Blue laws In South Carolina drive aoft drink thlr?ty across border Into Georgia; golfers arrested In Greenttll* go to Georgia. Paris Matin asserts Coolidge has accepted French propose! for provisional payments; Wash. Ington says no formal offer by France to pny has been received. Harvey Company and Former City Engineer. SUCCESS AS - Had I Numerous PUBLISHER £ Benefaction: t of Which Was Sara. toga Hospital. The copy waa aworn to as a duWASHINGTON. Feb. 58. (/*>)Loula H. Cramer, SI, one of tha •Mgadler General Smedley D. But- plicate of the original letter bjf best known flnancers and philanJer was ordered to China today to I Leo A. ReRan of the Buffalo prohl-| thropists in northern New York* president nud manager of The O. •eouimand the marine force of moro! bition office. The original has dlsF. Harvey company and president than 2,500 In Asiatic waters. Ho appeared. Doh wa Nof • • • — • • m. .#. ah « M A ,«.m*' ° ' t n o Board of Managers of taw m Will proceed by the first steamer Representative I A Guard!* toda T A T A I { I I I M l v i l f l N Saratoga hospital, died at his reslinvitation to discuss the subject and said that the British dele- ' Money Spent in Developclosed hia case against Cooper and Iron) San Diego. l v I i l L J U v U J U U l l denca. 72 Clinton s t r e e t Saturthe committee took It under adgates would "do their best to further the success of the proposed ing Property. I day evening at 6:30 o'clock. Mr. SHANGHAI. Feb. 28. OP)—Con- vlaement. conversation." 1 Cramer's death was attributed to In the copy of the letter read tofidence having been restored to the —^ WASHINGTON. Feb. 21. 0 » — shaken force of Marshal r „k«—~ ll.~A .A M . , ; „ . Al a » h o c k sustained nine weeks u^g ago, Sun- day, after advising Merrick that It E i g h t e e n H u nrd r e d Marines, A l a n J1|ne8fl n f 8 U c h a B f i v e r l t y Together with the Japanese ac- Edward L. Doheny must give up Chuan-Fang by the arrival of ex- had been Impossible to get the ready Landed; More On | It confined him to his bed until ceptance, the reply waa regarded the naval oil leases and contracts tensive relnforcementa from Shan- "master minds" of the bootlegging awarded him when Albert B. Fall I the hour of hia death. the Way. as probably opening the way for a tung province, defense preparations! same In Northern New York, the Mr. Cramer's business and flnanthree-power consideration of smal- was secretary of the Interior. to prevent Shanghai, richest mill- i Judge said that some unusual pro,aJ wa o n p of Nor will he receive back tho ler classes of war craft in line with GUARDING R A I L R O A D f " marked individualtsry prize of the Orient, from fall- cedure must be adopted the principles applied to first line money he spent in attempting la ing into Nationalist hands pro' lam and was unusual In that his "If you have a couple of truat- ! carry the agreements into effect. best loved field of work was found ships at the Washington conferworthy, keen and resourceful young Britain Will Act in Harmony in one other than that In which In an opinion amounting to a c e s s e d on a large scale today. ence. Principal actlvitlea centered at men In your service," the letter With United Stale. he received his early education. The text of the British not*- fol- complete victory for the govern- Bunking, strategic point 28 miles said, "you would get a number of ment the Supreme Court held toCommencing a successful career M Policy. lows: Preparations in- these fellowa If they go about It In day that the agreements not only south of here. a civil engineer In'his early youth, "His majestys government rej M A N A O L ' A . Feb. 21 O — Fur- Mr. Cramer later became interestW Woolsey and-Benton Die As ceived with cordial sympathy the were tainted by fraud, but that the eluded the construction of battery the right way. Indicating that the Fall leasing policy under which positions ed tn the publishing business and ' There are aeveral things which , U ) f r m $ u d . U p h n w n l . ot Unll,j Planes Crash in Air at invitation of the government of the they were made was illegal. Northerners, once reported on the they can do to get Into the current | , then later became manager United States of America to take H ate- ^ ^ h a v , h^n 1(Lnd#d , t Buenos Aires. It was under this same policy Verge of losing Sunklang, had the part in a conversation at Geneva of the bootlegging activities. They C p r t o U f r o m t h a destroyer tenders • evenluaHy president and manager that the Teapot Dome leas* was situation In hand there and were could come to Albany and by hang TWO MEN MISS DEATH on the further limitation of naval given to Harry F. Sinclair, al- prepared to make a definite stand lng around the Hampton Hotel, or Aluire and Melville, The total o f ; of Thq O. F Harvey rornpany. OM of the nation's leading firms of American forcea on tho west coast though tha suit to cancel that leas* Nagalnat the Nationalist advance. the Schleits hotel, they could get in of Nicaragua now la about 1,800. j manufacturing chemists. "The view of his majesty's govEscape by Jump From Ma- ernment upon the special geo- was not directly Involved in toMarshal Sun and General Chang touch with local peopJs who want With the arrival of the transport] Since he became connected wttfc day's finding. the Harvey company, Mr. Cramer Chang, commander of the northern somebody to go to the North counchines—One Parachute graphical position of the British Henderson scheduled to f t^mmSagTwW»TS» a comThe opinion of tho court was relnforcementa returned today try, to get the ale and beer, etc., rlnto In a week the total P t f r O a . Empire, the length of the imperial Fails to Open. probably) munity, hln dearest friend, aad announced by Justice Butler, and from the battle front While there and bringing It to Albany, and the communications and the necessity will be awellcd to three thousand! was one of the leaders la adthere was no dissent It completely SUBNOS AIRES, Feb. 28 UP) — tor tho protection of It* food sup- • awfleuted tho finding! of the court Bi. . addressed four thousands of Albany people would tell them men. vancing and carrying out ideas Argentina had made extensive pre- plies are weft knowh a*nd together of appeals, holding that tha Doheny Tits troops, "lefllhg them that they where to go In Cltnton county to In addition to the American war- uj^t served not only to better the parations to fete the United States with the special conditions and re- leases and contracts are Invalid and were now united with the Shan- get the stuff. ships the British cruiser Colombo I d t y but the conditions of its in* "I have no doubt the local people is now snehored off Corlnto ready habitants. army good will filers when they ar- quirements of the other countries that Doheny Is entitled to no com- tingese to fight Bolshevism. Work of a hospital provide the automobile. to take aboard British Nationals if nature, homes for aged and cbllrived here but now a sorrowing na- invited to participate in the con- pensation. Supplementing the land prepara- would versation must be taken Into acThey could go to Clinton county their lives are placed in Jeopardy dren as well as educational Instition is paying homage In a different The highest tribunal based It*, tions and aa a precaution agslnat way to two of the aviators who count. decision on evidence deduced in the a Nationalistic attack on Shanghai and go where these local people by the fighting between the Liberal tutions were a hobby with Mr, "His majestys government Is were killed in Saturday's crash beby water, defense Commissioner Ll send them and get in touch with Cram'-r and he was one of ths cmfe nevertheless prepared to consider trial court and previously brought PIo Chang yesterday ordered the the proprietors of these places and and Conservative factions. tween the planes New York and to light in the Senate oil inquiry. With the object of guarding the standing figures in the develop* to what extent the principles Detroit. The final finding waa taken Wooaung entrance of the Whang- make them buy and come away. railway line from Managua to Gra- ment of the Saratoga hospital, tha carried forward either a» regards "If they could be arreated It nada and to discourage the Lib- Saratoga Springs Y. M. C. A^ the The bodies of Captain Clinton F. adopted at Washington can be without regard for the verdict rf poo River which Is the only apWoolsey of Michigan and Lieut. the ration in different classes of Jury In a local court which ac- proach to the city from the Yan- would not hurt anything but per- erals from making sn attack on Home of the Good Shepherd. SkidJohn E. Benton of California were ships between tho various Powers quitted Fall and Doheny of a crim- tese Delta, closed from 6 p.m. to haps would make lt better for their Granada, 350 marines were ordered more College and the Hawley future activities. taken to the military club Saturday or in other important ways. They inal conspiracy charge based on 6 sum. to Granada yesterday. It is ex- Home for Children. "They could alao go directly* to pected that naval forces will soon Of a retiring nature and seldom night, a few hours after the acci- therefore accept the invitation of the $100,000 transaction. The consular body Immediately The court found that the inter- protested the regulation, pointing Plattaburgh and vicinity and hang be orderrd to the Matalpt region, seen by residents of the city other dent, to lie in state. the government of the United Before the bodies are taken States and will do their best to fur- est and influence of Fall, as well out that a vast amount, of ship- around and easily get In touch as It la In line with the advance of than during business hours of tha later years of his life, Mr. Cramer aboard the steamer Vauben this af- ther success of the proposed con- as his official action, were cor- ping enters and leaves the harbor with the dealers. I am told you the Liberal generals. spent his evening hours at horns ruptly secured by Doheny for the aa the tide dictates and cannot be ean go Into certain lunch rooms In ternoon for the Journey to the U. S. versation. where he was constantly In touch Pittsburgh, Cbsmplain and Rouses making of the contracts and interfered with. all parts of the country will be rep"They would, however, observe Week-end developments tn the with the several Institutions that Point, end. If you come up with an resented at religious services at the that tho relationship of such a con- leases. A thousand more British marines received his time and consideraFall, the court said, had stated j arrived today on the troop ship automobile you will be solicited to Nicarsgusn situation were; Cathedral. versation to tho proceedings of the Harold Patteson. British Charge tion for the past 20 years. that in conducting the leasing nebuy a load to take back. It might President De Alvear, who on Fri- preparatory commission at Geneva Minnesota. The general labor union Gave Much to Hospital d'affaires at Corlnto, declared that day had greeted the members of would require careful adjustment" gotiations he would act himself, filled a one-hour strike aa a pro- be well for them to drive up In sn his country If necessary would recOne nf the principal ideals of and that the Doheny company actApproved in Commons the good will squadron at Mar Del test against the landing of the automobile rather than to go up ognize the regime of the Conserva- Mr. Cramer, the development of LONDON, Feb. 28. 04*)—Great ed upon belief that Fall controlled forces but the walkout failed to without the automobile." Plata, the summer capital, returntive president, Diaz. He aald that the Saratoga hospital, reached Its the situation. The opinion reviewThe letter explained that If the Captain Lackle of the British cruis- climax but a few years ago when ed to Buenos^ Aires last night to Britain's reply to President Cool- ed In detail the secret negotiations materialize. agents were arrested they would be er Colombo would do nothing with- he constructed and presented tsj ldge's proposal for further naval attend the religious service. and stated that the facts leading released on Judge Cooper's order. Major Herbert. A. Dargue, In limitations accepting the Presi- up to the leases showed that the out first consulting with Admiral the hospital the Nurse's Home, deeRep. La Guardla s h e seek the Latimer, commanding tha Ameri- tlned aa a memorial to himself command of tha squadron, and dent's invitation was read in the Doheny company Yiad preferential Judge's Impeachment, contended can naval forces. and Mrs. Cramer, and the subsa* Lieut. Whitehead, reserve .pilot of House of Commons today dy Sec treatment. It was well established that this letter Implicated Judge quent construction of the large the New York had a narrow es- retary Chamberlain and was greet the court found, that the conThe Liberal envoy s t Mexico and beautiful wing on the eastern Cooper In sn Illegal plan to trap cape from death. Lieut. White- ed with general approval. tracts and leases were made withCity, Pedro Zepeda, charged that section of the original building; liquor law violators. head Injured his left ankle when out competition. many wounded Liberals In ths The Installation of a modern operPASTOR ACCEPTS C A L L One of the first of the new withe touched the ground with his Furthermore, the opinion continfighting zones of Nlcarsgua v.ere ating room, an efficient and ads* BUFFALO, N. Y„ Feb. 28. (An— nesses called was Leo W, Breed, parachute and walks with difficulued, th* leasing act fo 1320, Lnder dying because of lack of food or quale laboratory nnd many other The Rev. Charles A- Briggs, pastor aJMlstant U. 8. district attorney at ty. * medical attention, which waa pre- details which placed the local inof the Park Side Baptist church which the leases and contracts Syracuse, whose offlcs Is InvestiTha Detroit Burns. were made did not authorize the vented from reaching them by the stitution among the first class hosgating the disappearance from The crash came as the planes since 1910,. has resigned to accept wholesale removal of the oil from American forcea. He was ending pitals of the state, were largely a call to Deposit, N. Y. Mr. Briggs the ground, but was Intended only w«re coming down for a landing on WASHINGTON, Feb. 21. 0 * 1 - Judge Cooper's files of lettera said an appeal to the Red Cross to re- the result of bis study and carethe Palomar flying field. They will take up his new duties April to aid In the conservation of the The right of Senator Gould, Re- to have a bearing on the impeach- lieve the plight of the Liberals. fully outlined plans of progress. oil In the ground as a reaervo, and publican, Maine, to a place In the ment case. were In close formation and In the first. The Liberal president, John B. Mr. Cramer was a liberal supChairman Graham aaJd the comgranted tho Secretary of the Navy Senate was upheld today In the act of making a turn the wing of Saeasa, In a statement Issued by his the New York crashed Into the left and Captain Woolsey, of the De- full discretion in the sale, exchange report of the Senete elections sub mittee had decided to permit La representatives at Washington, de- porter Of the Hawley Horns for Children, the Y. M. C. A., the Horns wing of the Detroit. The planes troit, succeeded In making the leap, or storage of It, committee that Inveattgsted charges Guardla to go more broadly Into clared he was still ready to relin- of the Good Shepherd and Skidhia chargea with the understanding Among other things, t h / court agslnat him. became entangled and Instantly l a - but Woolsey's parachute failed to quish hia claims to the Presidency more College. Just a few days began to fall. open and he was killed by the fall. declared it was not necessary to The sub committee recommended that the hearing would b« conclud- of Nicaragua on condition t fore his death Mr. Cramer contriDargue and Whitehead came down decide whether the payment of •hat the charges which Pilots Sean Struggling. revolved ed when his latest witnesses bad I Diaz withdraw. buted in a generous manner to ths $100,000 by Doheny to Fall waa a about the payment of 1100.000 to fe been heard. The two pilots could be seen by safely and were not injured. Skldmore College endowment fond. Papers Ransacked. the watchers attempting to restore The Detroit was completely burn- bribe, constituting a conspiracy to median official be dropped. Among his benefactions was a UNEARTH RADICAL PLOT, SYRACUSE. Feb. 21—Oliver D. the equilibrium of their falling ed while the New York was wreck- defraud the government The Investigation of Gould's BUDAPEST, Feb. 21. <M— A ( fouryear scholarship in R. P. I, Since the leasing act of 1920 did qualifications was made at the ln- Burden, United Stales attorney, anmachines, but to no avail. Within ed. widespread BoUbcvikt plot has' several years sgo, which was not authorize the awarding of a moment the Detroit was afire. The Pan-American flight will be leasee, said the opinion, the Elk "tasc* of Senator Walsh, who baaed nounced today an Intensive federal been unearthed by the police. The | (Continued on Page Two) investigation would be atarted ImThe four men aboard the planes, continued eventually with four Hllla lease was Invalid whether or is demands on charges that the mediately to trace the peraon or author!!lea MH- It was centered In which were coming down rapidly, planes. Major Richardson, U. S. .-enator had turned over |100,000 to persons who Saturday afternoon Budapest and bad ramifications In were observed adjusting their para- military attache here, said today. not a bribe was passed. Nevertheless, tho court declared f >rmer Premier Fleming of New ransacked a private file of F«>der»! the principal cities of Hungary. chutes and making ready to Jump. The St. Louli and Ran Francl&co, nrunswlck. In connection with M WHEN A GIR\- \S Judge Frank Cooper In his office In Lieutenant Benton for some reason he said, would resume the f.lght In passing that Fall's domination ontrsct for a railroad. AN/\OUS,TQ KEEP A was unable to get loose and was from the Buenoa Aires basin on In the naval reserves were brought "The premises conaldered, your the Albany federal building and to lunch made the dlaeovery upon made away with correspondence. burned to death. His body was Tuesday, and the San Antonio, now about by "calculation and constireturning to make a telephone call >mmlttee recommends that, furthtuted a conspiracy between F."!l KEEP taken from the debris of the De- In Chile, would Join them at the and Doheny. Judge Cooper's office was enter- to his father in Troy. er action In the ease be not taken troit. ed between 1 and 2 o'clock Saturnearest point possibly Montevideo. The floor wss littered with papers and that the right of the Honorable Arthur R. Gould to a aest in the dsy afternoon. Mr. Taylor, his sec- and the telephone removed from Commander Dargue and Lieuten- A fourth plane will Join the squadretary, who had left the office to go Its hook. nate be confirmed." ant Whitehead, of the New York, ron In Venezuela, at [TWO GOOD WILL AVIATORS KILLED; FLIGHT TO GO ON SENATOR GOULD OF MAINE GIVEN SEAT IN SENATE 3E.CRET- HER Anxious ADAM WINS DEFENDERS Sunday Golfers Arrested in Bine * Law Campaign in South Carolina COLUMBIA, S, C , Feb. 28 C4»>—f and state senator and W. G. Perry, Golf bugs, many of whom have to Jr., John Cushman and David Ferwait six days between whacks at guson, Greenville business men. When the balls, May «*pect no discrimi- were the golfers arrested. nation in their favor in Governor released they began to play anyRichards* esmpaign to enforce way, but were warned that It Would re*uK in their being placed In the South Carolina's century-old Sun"lockup." They heeded the warnday closing law. ing, but finished their game at This waa clearly indicated when Hlltmore, N, C, where th *y drov* four players, enrouto to the link* by automobile and later announced in Greenville, were arretted yester- they would carry the case to court. day, the state's Second "blue" SunGasoline ulationi, garages, noda day. fountains, cigar stores and restauThese were th* only, arrest* '. s i rants generally were closed In the the lid was generally reported as larger cities, while drug store, that clamped down tight in all prinei- remained open catered only to pal otlea, far more at least than a medicine purchasers. week before when first attempts irette bootleg**-™ were rewere made to enforce the law. ported operating In Greenville, settProctor Boas, a former solicitor i ing them for 10 ccnt§_ a package. '"<% CAMBRIDGE. England. Feb. !* (An—An organization called "the Hlppolltua club" has been formed at Cambridge university "to reassert the supremacy of the male." A ttatement of policy aays: "Convinced that feminine Influence la eating like a cancer Into modern civilisation, the Hlppo)ltu« club will blaze' the trail towards an era of uncompromising masculinity. It will shatter the domlnnton of Bee and restore the Initiative of Adam.** Greek legend Is responsible for the club's name. OR. FQSDICK'S FATHER DEAD Hilles Sees Republican Victory in '28; Butler Continues Attacks on President NEW YORK, Feb. It, (M—SotiH«d of the death of hia father. Dr. i rank Sheldon Fosdlck, too late to 1'eore a aifbstltute at the. Psrk • venue Baptist church, the Rev. Dfc riarry Emeraon Foadlck preaehed yesterday to s conarregaNKW YORK, Feb. 21 —Conflict«.oa that was unaware of his b*>ing analyses of National senti; eayement. ment of the I s , * presidential elecDr. Foadlck'a only reference to j tion were voiced today by Chirlea :tie feelings was s single sentence D. Hilles, vice chairman of the Re'teaming de«th in his prayer. publican National CSsSfBtttee, sad The congregation learned of the l*re*l,lent Nicholas Murray Butler «ath after the services. of Columbia university. Dy, Foadick. " , tsseh'er In BufMr. Hilles la on a four e»f QM '•lo for more than fifty years, died •fly yesterday at ?b« heme of his West Studying the p.ilit! al fttWa* 100 P f R CENT STOCK DIVIDEND -an, Raymond B Fosdlefc, in Mont- tion. T>r. Butler returned u«i.-r> day from a rp*»kln* t e w *-f Ohlei, ATLANTA, Q a . Feb 2*. &hair, *f. J . Indiana, lllln«i#. Witconsin end Dlreetors of the Cees Cola company h«re today declared a atoeW Minnesota, dividend of I f f per cent at t',Mr Hilles* prediction of **a iweepclose of a etoekho'ders' meeting St! —Ml«« Dorothy Ksden r-.t Bos- Ing victory for ths Republican psrty which It was voted to Increase thel ' a, Mass.. is a guest of Mr end tn New York Hale snd the nation capital stock from *aef©ae t 0 on<»j Mra, Morris Abrahsma of Broad- In ItfiV* on the basis of the prosmillion shares. Ths stock d i u «»?. Mi*, Ksden ia a law student perity of lb* last sis year*, was dend will be paid April 25 to stock .it the Nortn Eastern University met by Dr. But (era autemeta that holders of retord March U, \ .n l e s i o n , Mass. it farmers of Ike Jliddie West art PERSONAL MENTION Untitled Document Thomas M. Tryniski 309 South 4th Street Fulton New York 13069 www.fultonhistory.com preparing to vote the Democratic ticket "to punish President Coolidge for vetoing the MeNary-Hsugcn 14 • Dr. Butler sees In the Middle Weft a tremendous sentiment for repent ef the prohibition amendment. "Those whom I saw and addressed indicated as atrong a hostility to % third presidential term as (,.-%• did to the fe,icr*I prohibition law," Dr. Butler asserted. He aald people of the Middle West feel their local and federal governments coat too much. Governor Smith of New York, Dr. Butler declared, "seems to be not only the •troagest but pretty near the only possibility in the Forecast. Cloudy tonight snd Tuesday, probably followed by snow Tuesday; not much chanee In temperature; freah north shifting to northeast winds. The Sua. jtisee Today Tomorrow ,,,,.,.,. Temperature. High* . . . . . BSfp^ i:SS « 34 l;It j^H � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8a431739b8ddc6b98061a905ebad89bd.pdf 842900a21a7a249716108280445d6734 PDF Text Text 1 THE SARATOCIAN, MONDAY. FEBRUARY 28. 1927. FAOH T W O USH LEAVES CITY STREETS IN BAD CONDITION Weddings A very pretty w e d d i n g w a a solemnized at the Bethesda rectory Saturday by t h e R e v . Irving G. Rouillard w h e n M i s s Ethel M a e Handy, d a u g h t e r of Mrs. E. M. Handy, b e c a m e t h e bride of Clare n c e E. Crawford, s o n of Mr. a n d Mrs. Charles Crawford, out Maple avenue. T h e bride w a s prettily g o w n e d In light blue chiffon o v e r blue satin w i t h h a t to m a t c h . H e r c o r s a g e b o u q u e t w a s of bridal roses. T h e b r i d e s m a i d w a s Miss E v e l y n Mullimun of S c h e n e c t a d y , a c o u s i n of t h e bridegroom, w h o wore l i g h t pink chiffon o v e r pink satin, w i t h hat t o m a t c h . H e r c o r s a g e bouquet w a s pink c a r n a t i o n s . The bridegroom's a t t e n d a n t w a a Gust a v e L l s h e n of S c h e n e c t a d y . Mr. and Mrs. Crawferd left Imm e d i a t e l y after t h e c e r e m o n y for S c h e n e c t a d y w h e r e a w e d d i n g dinner w a s s e r v e d In t h e Asia r e s t a u rant. T h e y w i l l be a t h o m e t o their m a n y f r i e n d s a t t h e i r n e w l y furnished h o m e a t 146 E a s t a v e nue. I LOUIS H. CRAMER, BUSINESS EXPERT, FINANCIER, DEAD The Right Thing in the W r o n g Place "-"S* MARKET NEWS Markets At a Glance Dairy Market New York N E W YORK, Feb. 18 </P>— Stock*—Strong; Houston Oil Jumps o v e r 16 p o i n t s . B U T T E R — Steady; receipts 6.(Continued from P a g e One) Tractor and Steel Plow Out c r e a m e r y higher than extra* B o n d s — F i r m ; foreign I s s u e s ac- 380; awarded t o S c h u y l e r P e c k , a Sara51 l - 2 c <o> 62c; creamery extras (98 tive. Today in Lone Battle toga H i g h School g r a d u a t e . Foreign e x c h a n g e s — Mixed; score) 51c; creamery firsts (88 t*> With Element*. 1 Savad Frank Leslie Estate. S p a n i s h a n d N o r w e g i a n r a t e s ad- 91 s c o r e ) 49c & 50 l - 2 c ; packing W h i l e a later day generation of stock, current make, No. 2, 26c. vance. W h i l e all of the i t a t e a n d c o u n t y Saratogiana had forgotten his EGGS — S t e a d y t o firm; receipt* C o t t o n — F i r m ; foreign buying. h i g h w a y s In Saratoga c o u n t y a r e la career a s a publisher, h i s oldtlme 15,510. F r e s h gathered, e x t r a f i r s t s . S u g a r — E a s y ; Cuban selling. irood condition for travel t h e s t r e e t s friends w e r e familiar with his 25 l - 2 c © 26 l - 2 c ; firsts 23 3-4o Coffee—Easy; trade s e l l i n g . of S a r a t o g a Springs a r e In the s u c c e s s a s b u s i n e s s manager of Chicago <if 24 l - 2 c ; seconds and poorer w o r s t condition they h a v e been in Wheat—Barely steady; larger 22 l - 2 c & 23 l - 2 c ; storage prim* the Frank Leslie c o m p a n y of N e w r e c e n t years. The five Inches of Southwestern receipts. York city, p u b l i s h e r s of Leslie's 21c <> 22c; fair to good 18o 0 20c; g f f e t s n o w w h i c h fell the latter part Corn—Firm; increased v i s i b l e n e a r b y h e n n e r y whites, closely s e Weekly. Mr. Cramer left his chosen of l a s t week left t h e s t r e e t s deep supply. profession a s civil engineer In the lected e x t r a s 33c @ 84c; nearby i n s l u s h and nearly every street Cattle—Steady. early nineties t o t a k e over the and nearby Western hennery w a s d e e p l y rutted m a k i n g travel Hogs—Firm. m a n a g e m e n t of t h e Leslie business w h i t e s , firsts t o average e x t r a * 28o difficult and dangerous. U r g e n t b u y i n g of s h a r e s w h i c h © 32c; n e a r b y pullets 26c; n e a r b y and guided it through a stormy D e p u t y Commissioner of P u b l i c h a v e r e c e n t l y m a d e r e m a r k a b l e hennery browns, extra* 29c & 8lc;l career into one of financial soundW o r k s , H e n r y F. Ryall. said today advances c o n t i n u e d during t h e ness. H e w a s credited with being Pacific c o a s t whites, extras, freight t h a t efforts t o plow a w a y t h e anow early hours. H o u s t o n Oil and personally responsible for the s u c 33c @ 34c; firsts to extra firsts 28fl| S a t u r d a y were abandoned because Commercial Solvents, B extended cess of t h i s g r e a t business. It w a s t h o u g h t better t o w a i t until to o v e r 10 p o i n t s . C a s h Thresh- ® 32 l - 2 c . Courtesy, National Safety Council C H E E S E — Steady; receipts 6 7 , Mr. Cramer, s o n of James L. It h a d softened up some. H e s a i d i n g M a c h i n e j u m p e d 1 1-2 B a l d w i n S t a t e , whole milk, flats, fresh and L o i s W. ( C h e n e y ) Cramer, w a s t h a t t h e conditldn of t h e s n o w w a s a n d I n t e r n a t i o n a l H a r v e s t e r w e r e 470. Here's an example of a driver who Is doing the right thing in one wrong place. He stopped In the mid- u p 4 p o i n t s . fancy s p e c i a l 24c; average r u n 22o s u c h t h a t u s e of t h e p l o w s o n the born In Schuylervllle. A u g u s t 3, dle of the road to put on chains, Instead of getting out of the way or tending to this task before leaving the t r u c k s w a s not practicable and that flat*, T h e r e n e w a l r a t e o n call l o a n s @ 23c; s t a t e , whole milk, T h e funeral of Mrs. Margaret 1846. In 1853 he moved to W a s h garage. The car on the right approached at a fast rate of speed and being without chains also skidded, al- w a s a d v a n c e d t o 4 1-2 p e r cent held, f a n c y t o fancy special 25c 9 t h e s t e e l plow on the tractor w a s ington, D. C , w i t h his parents Gurtler w a s held t h i s morning a t most striking the man who was so busily engaged at his task that he did not notice the approach of the w h i c h c o m p a r e d w i t h F r i d a y ' s re- 28c; a v e r a g e run 26c. t h e o n l y o n e being u s e d but t h a t 130 Circular s t r e e t at 8 o'clock a n d where h e received h i s early and other vehicle. work w a s progressing and he hoped preparatory education. H e entern e w a l r a t e of 4 a n d t h e h i g h at 9:30 a t St. Peter's Catholic t o h a v e t h e streets in fairly goon figure of 5 for t h a t d a y . ed Rensselaer Polytechnic Instichurch. The R e v . Father Michael condition by tomorrow night. The c l o s i n g w a s strong. A broad tute, Troy, 1863, a n d in 1865 a c Mahoney celebrated t h e m a s s . v a r i e t y o f railroads a n d Industrials cepted a position o n the preliminA u t o m o b i l e traffic w a s m a i n t a i n e d T h e bearers w e r e Joel E. Mast in, reflected a c c u m u l a t i o n in t h e late y e s t e r d a y w i t h difficulty, It fre- T h o m a s Leonard, Dr. Arthur S w a n - ary survey of the N e w York and trading. H o u s t o n o i l - g o t u p to Canadian branch of t h e Delaware quently being n e c e s s a r y for driv- lck and D o m l n l c k Blffer. N E W YORK, F e b . 28. t4»)—The 120 a n e x t r e m e r i s e of 16 1-2 and Hudson railroad. e r s to g o several blocks o u t of their \e T h e body w a s placed In the N e w York Central's g r o s s r e v e points. w a y t o turn a corner w h i l e m a n y Greenrldge r e c e i v i n g vault. Mr. Cramer, b e t w e e n 1878 and nues for January were $31,003,299, D. and H. R e m i n g t o n Typewriter, w e r e forced to back up a n entire 1882, w a s associated with Jesse S, , m —an increase of $626,641 over J a n u Union Carbide and Stromber.? block to m e e t cars, b e i n g u n a o l e to Mott, father of S a m u e l J. Mott, ary last year, but net o p e r a t i n g InCarbuter a d v a n c e d b e t w e e n 4 and g e t their cars o u t of ruts. present city engineer, In the g e n W A S H I N G T O N , Feb. 28. MP) — come declined $314,616 to $3,957,935. 5 points. Total s a l e s approximateral practice of s u r v e y i n g and e n BALLSTON S P A . F e b . 28. — ed 2,400,000 s h a r e s . B A L L S T O N S P A F e b . 28. — The month's passenger T h a t part of t h e N e w York s t a t e 0 » » of th» m o s t Interesting m e e t revenues (Special)—Officers w e r e elected a n d presi- were the largest in its history. i n g of t h e Y o u n g People's S o c i e t y gineering in t h i s place. The t w o (Sptc'.al)—Ensign Johnson, (Quotations furnished hy Foster law w h i c h prohibits licensed b r o k Installed a t the o r g a n i z a t i o n m e e t of t h e P r e s b y t e r i a n church w a s handled virtually all the engineer- dent of the Merchants' B u r e a u of 6 A d a m s . 127 W a l l street. S c h e n - ers from charging more than 50 ing of the Ladies' Auxiliary of apheld last nigOt. It took the form of ing business for t h e village of Sar- the Chamber of Commerce, Crown W i l l a m e t t e P a p e r c o m - Henry Cornell P o s t , American Le-, ectady, m e m b e r s of t h e N e w York c e n t s a b o v e theatre prices on t h e a debate w i t h Miss Bertha B u r - atoga Springs a n d virtually all In peared before the Rotary club at r e - s a l e of tickets w a s declared u n P h o n e 8461. pany and wholly owned s u b s i d i a r - gion, Saturday night, a t t h e h o m e Stock E x c h a n g e . pee and M i s s Elizabeth Swick u p - this section of the state. In 1876 its regular noon day l u n c h e o n t o Open Close c o n s t i t u t i o n a l today by the S u ies report net profit of $3,641,39/1 of Mrs. T h o m a s J. Doyle, In MHholding t h e affirmative a n d M i s s Mr. Cramer w i t h t h e late F. W. day w i t h figures obtained b y the Allls Chalmers 94V4 94V4 preme Court. W i l l i a m R. Tolmie, 45, a well Audrey B u s s i n g and Miss Florence Beers of N e w York city, prepared c o m m i t t e e appointed by t h e R o - for 192C. ton avenue. T h e officers elected, Justice Sutherland, delivering Amer B e e t S u g a r . . . . . 24% 24% k n o w n resident of S a r a t o g a Springs K e t c h u m t h e n e g a t i v e . T h e R e v . a map of the v i l l a g e s of Ballston tary club, Chamber of Commerce and later Installed, by County P r e s A m e r Can c o m 49% 50% the opinion, said that theatres w e r e tor 40 y e a r s , former hotel m a n and Mr. Claxon a n d Mr. Brenton T a y - Spa and Saratoga Springs which and Merchants* Bureau of the J a m e s L. McQuarrle h a s been ident Mrs. T. B e e c h e r Corcoran, not in t h e class of public i n s t i t u a t o n e time t h e o w n e r of trotting lor served a s j u d g e s and decided is used to this d a y In fixing bound- Chamber of Commerce to look Into elected v i c e president and chief of South Glens Falls, assisted by A m e r Car a n d F d y . . 106 106% tions w h o s e interests warrant s u c h A m e r Ice S e c y s 129% 129 a n d running horses, died a t the t h a t t h e debate w a s a tie a s both aries of property Sarah W i c k s of Saratoga and highways tho cost of the building of t h e r e - engineer of t h e International T e l e - Mrs. Amer L o c o Ill 112% protection. S a r a t o g a H o s p i t a l a t 12:45 o'clock s i d e s had presented their a r g u - and streets In both places. and three-quarter phone and Telegraph Corporation. Springs, w e r e : Many maining two H e declared also that the N e w A m e r S m e l t e r s c o m . . 149% 149% t h i s noon, following a n i l l n e s s of m e n t s equally well. miles of road between B a l l s t o n Spa He w a s / f o r m e r l y w i t h the Bell other old m a p s bear his name. Mrs. J. S y l v e s t e r Schaeffer, p r e s - Amer S u g a r Ref 85% 85% York l a w w a s the first attempt a t t w o y e a r s . Mr. Tolmie had been in and R o c k City Falls. Mr. E n s i g n Telephone s y s t e m . T h e B o y S c o u t s will m e e t this ident; Mrs. B e s s i e Cornick, vice For nearly 25 y e a r s h e w a s city legislature to> A m e r T e l a n d Tel . . 159% 1 5 8 ^ price fixing by a t h e S a r a t o g a H o s p i t a l for m a n y e v e n i n g a t 7 o'clock in the S u n d a y had figures to show t h a t t h e cost president; Mrs. R o b e r t Talbot, s e c engineer. In 1895 h e retired from c o m e before the court, and t h a t A n a c o n d a Copper . . . . 48 48 m o n t h s , c o n s c i o u s of the fact that School rooms. of building that part of t h e road Mrs. Maurice F. Dower, Marland Is making rapid s t r i d e s retary; his profession to become secretary 170% 170% such price fixing by a legislature h e oould never recover from t h e efT h i s e v e n i n g a t 6:45 there will be Of The G. F. H a r v e y Company. In which h a s been completed a s about in m a s t e r i n g the fire risk, s a y s a treasurer; Miss Catherine O'Neil, A t c h i s o n c o m f e c t s of s u g a r diabetes, which e v e n - a rehearsal for the Young P e o 193% 199% could n o t be sustained. If i t w e r e , $13,364.83 per mile; a n d a t this report of building engineers of the chaplain; Mrs. J o s e p h DeLafayett, B a l d w i n L o c o 1903 he w a s elected president and rate, t h e cost for the remaining t u a l l y developed into tuberculosis. Baltimore a n d Ohio . . 113% 114% he said, it would be difficult t o ple's Society play, which i s to be Manufacturers sergeant a t a r m s ; Mrs. T h o m a s J. Barnsdall A treasurer of the c o m p a n y and w a s two a n d three-quarter m i l e s would National Lumber Born in Westville, near t h e C a n - g i v e n on March 17. 35% 35% see w h e r e price fixing by l a w filling t h a t dual position a t the be $41,250. H e also said t h a t they Association, w h o have been s t u d y - Doyle, historian; c o u n t y c o m m i t - B e e c h n u t might end. adian border, o n D e c e m b e r 19, 1881, 58 58 Tomorrow e v e n i n g a t 6:15, t h e Mrs. J. S. Schaeffer, Mrs. ing t h e nation's flrefl loss s t a t i s - tee: time of his recent illness. Mr. Tolmie came to Saratoga T h e decision w a s rendered in a Beth Steel com 49% 50% had received information? from tho Y o u n g P e o p l e will cooperate in the Joseph D e L a f a y e t t . Mrs. R. Herbert tics. Bank Director. S p r i n g e a t t h e a g e of five, h i s Young People's Institute a t the Canadian Pacific . . . . . 188% 190% c a s e i n v o l v i n g Tyson and Brothers county highway commissioner, Massey. H e w a s for several years a di- H a r t m a n , that the cost t o comfather, t h e late J o h n Tolmie, b e - First Methodist church in w h i c h and the United theatre ticket Cast Iron P i p e 224 225 Membership Drive. rector of the old First National plete this road this s e a s o n woulu The rate of fire l o s s on the ing e n g a g e d in the hotel b u s i n e s s five of t h e c h u r c h e s in the city are Cen L e a t h e r w c o m . . . 9% 9% offices. J u s t i c e s Holmes, Brandeis, Bank of Saratoga Springs and de- be, in a rough estimate, $55,000 for entire property valuation is h e r e for m a n y years. F r o m t i m e t o uniting. only P l a n a were m a d e for another Cerro d e P a s c o 61% 61% S t o n e a n d Sanford dissented. t i m e W i l l i a m R. T o l m i e e n g a g e d in •. » 157% 156% The mid-week service of i n - clined t h e presidency of that In- the remaining two and t h r e e - q u a r - $1.97 a thousand dollars e x c e p t i o n - meeting, T h u r s d a y e v e n i n g , a t t h e Ches a n d Ohio isimilar b u s i n e s s but h e w a s best struction and prayer will be c o n - stitution a s well a s the presidency ter miles. o t h e r home of Mrs. H e r b e r t M a s s e y l a C M a n d S t P a u l com 14% 14% Mr. Ensign s a i d this ally low compared w i t h k n o w n a s a turfman, a m o n g t h e ducted by t h e pastor on W e d n e s - of the Adirondack Trust Company. cost s e e m s high. It w a s said t h a t It states. Milton avenue, a t w h i c h time f u - C R I a n d P 81 82 • w a n i n g h o r s e s owned by h i m b e - day e v e n i n g a t 7:45 o'clock, From 1878 until 1882 he waa r e - will not be necessary t o p u t m ture activities of t h e auxiliary will Col F u e l a n d Iron . . . 69 58% i n g t h e s t a k e horse Captain H c r s h The L a d i e s A i d Society will m e e t ceiver of taxes for the town and an e x p e n s i v e sub-base for the rest January net operating Income o f b e discussed, a n d plans probably Cons G a s 99% 100 Jer, w h i c h for several y e a r s w a s in t h e church parlors on T h u r s d a y village of Saratoga Springs having of t h e road, but to be on t h o ' s a f e the Baltimore and Ohio declined to formulated for a membership Corn P r o d s c o m 51% 51% s u c c e s s f u l on the race tracks of the afternoc-n a t 2:30 o'clock. Mrs. also served a s a member and pres- Hide Mr. Hartman has given these $2,917,429 from $3,081,625 in J a n - drive. Crucile Steel 86% 89% ! country. Others of h i s running J a m e s W. L e s t e r will be the h o s - ident of the city board of health. figurs. The post n o w h a s a membership D and H uary, 1926, but gross r e v e n u e s w e r e 178% 181 h o r s e s w e r e Aunt Doeda, Sugar tess. Ho w a s a«Democrat In politics and slightly larger, $19,097,445 egainVc of sixteen w o m e n , t h e s e being: Mrs. x E a s t m a n K o d a k c o m 132% 131% H i n t , S t e p Son, Glen Well, and Mr. J o h n s o n said "We are in- $19,501,694. T h u r s d a y e v e n i n g at 7 o'clock w a s a t one t i m e , y e a r s ago, his B e s s i e Cornick, Mrs. Joseph D e - Erie c o m 46% 46% Nolawn. the S u n d a y School orchestra will party's candidate for assemblyman formed by the former t o w n rbad Lafayett, Mrs. Robert Talbot, M M . E r i e 1st pfd . . . . . . . . . . 67 56% (Continued from P a g e O n e ) P c o m m i s s i o n e r that the road put in h a v e its wockly rehearsal, a t the and later for sheriff. Prairie Oil and Gas h a s net pro- Herbert Massey, Mrs. T h o m a s J. F a m o u s P l a y s L F . , 112% 111% V fie a l s o w a s Interested In trot- church. that t h e measure, which would last y e a r w a s by far the h a r d e s t fit of $15,9C2,368 for 1926 a g a i n s t Doyle, Mrs. J. Si. Schaeffer, Mrs. 54% 54% General Cigars For many y e a r s Mr. Cramer w a s and m o s t e x p e n s i v e portion of the t i n g h o r s e s of w h i c h h e o w n e d s e v double t h e funds on hand, w o u l d A rehearsal for t h e Y o u n g P e o John H. Burke, Mrs, Maurice F . General E l e c t r i c . . . . . 86% 85% eral, t h e best k n o w n of w h i c h be- ple's play will b e held In t h e S u n - prominent In financial matters as w h o l e road to build. Eight or nine $14,181,533 the year before. fail a t t h i s session h u t they hold Dower, Mrs. Charles .1. H e n n e s s y , Geenral Motors 164 168% ing Daley Due which he raced day School r o o m s an Investor for t r u s t funds and c u l v e r t s w e r e - p u t in and a hill cut that its e n a c t m e n t by the n e x t C o n on T h u r s d a y Mrs. Charles J. H i g l e y , Mrs. E d - Gt Northern pfd The reduction of one cent a g a l 88% 89 w i t h s u c c e s s In this vicinity. as executor and trustee for several d o w n . It will not be n e c e s s a r y to g r e s s will be in plenty of time t o e v e n i n g a t 7 o'clock. ward A. "Rood, Mrs. Wiliard J. Gt Northern Ore 21% 21% W h i l e Mr. T o l m i e prospered he large estatesPrevious to the put In a sub-base for t h e best of lon In gasoline which the S t a n d a s s u r e their five, year program. . The Girl R e s e r v e s will m e e t on ard OH company of N e w York put Skillie, Mrs. F r a n k M. Noonan, Inspiration Copper . . . 22 » { w a s g e n e r o u s and o p e n - h e a r t e d t o Friday afternoon after school In death of Mrs. Cramer a few years the road." 21% B e n j a m i n T. Hall, Mrs. E d - Int P a p e r # Into effect in N e w England today Mrs. 56 56 a fault, his friends recalling that the Sunday School rooms. P l e a s e ago he and Mrs. Cramer, accomMr. J o h n s o n gave figures to has been extended to N e w YorK ward Frock and Miss Catherine h a n e v e r refused to g i v e financial note the c h a n g e in time and place panied by friends, traveled extenK e n n e c o t t Copper . . . . 63% 63% s h o w w h a t it would c o s t the tax- state. O'Neil. * aid to a friend or o n e In need. H e at meeting. Lehigh Valley . . . . . . . . 117% 118% sively in Europe. payers if the coat were spread over The Saratoga a u x i l i a r y w a a well L i g g e t t a n d M y e r s A . 92% met minanclal reverses several 92%' CHICAGO, F e b . 28— On Friday e v e n i n g a t 8 o'clock a period of 15 years. T h e payFuneral Tomorrow. represented a t t h e m e e t i n g , t h e fol- Mack Truck years a g o and his health b e g a n to the Loyal Workers* Class will hold 104% 105% W H E A T — May $1.38 7-8; J u l y m e n t would be $41,250 spread over Tha G. F. H a r v e y Company's lowing w o m e n a c c o m p a n y i n g t h e Miami Copper fall soon after. 16% 16% $1.32 7-8. their regular m e e t i n g In t h e church plant in this city and t h e branch a period of 15 years, $2,750 plus county president to Ballston S p a : Mo Pacific Survivors include a daughter, parlors. 50% 52% C O R N — May 75 7-8c; July i n t e r e s t of $1,650 the first year in Peoria, 111., will be closed until Mrs. T h o m a s H. L y e t t , Mrs. W i l - Moon MotorsJean E . Tolmie, S a r a t o g a S p r i n g s ; 10 10 80 3-8C. On F r i d a y afternoon at 3 o'clock after the funeral which will take w h i c h would amount to $4,400. H e liam Stieglltz, Mrs. George F. N a t i o n a l L e a d . . . . his mother, Mrs. Georgtanna T o l - the Interdenominational 177% 176 O A T S — May 45 l - 8 c ; July Missione s t i m a t e d the work would add an Armb, Mrs. Charles E . Grooms, N e v a d a COn Copper mie, Jacksonville, Fla.; five s i s - ary meeting will be held a t t h e Y. place tomorrow afternoon a t 2:30 extra t a x of e i g h t e e n and one-half 14% 14% •45 l - 2 c . o'clock, at the residence of his Mrs. Alfred F. P e p p e r , Mrs. Henry N e w York Central . term, Mrs. S a d i e Campbell and Mrs. M. C. A. a n d all the women of the 144% 143% • The Young People's I n s t i t u t e M. Carr, Mrs. S t e p h e n close friends, Dr. and Mrs. F. J. c e n t s o n a hundred valuation. Buckley, Ball* Comstock, Jacksonville, F l o . ; congregation a r e urged to attend. 64% 56% N Y N H and H . GIGLI UNDER GUARD Resseguie, 60D Broadway. The T h e people represented by t h e s e will open tomorrow evening a t the Mrs. Byron Stanford, Mrs. S a r a h Mrs, John Merrill, Roxbury, V t ; T h e B l u e B i r d s will m e e t on xNorfolk a n d W e s t 169 168 N E W YORK, F e b . 28 OP)—PresMrs. J o h n P . Roohan, A m s t e r d a m S a t u r d a y m o r n i n g a t 10 o'clock In Rev. A. H. Boutwell, pastor of the three organizations t h e Rotary First Methodist Episcopal church Wicks and M i s s N o r a Buckley, e n c e of police in and about t h e Northern Pacific 88% 88% club, Chamber of Commerce and with a Fellowship supper In t h e Baptist church, will officiate. a n d Mrs. John G. Slattery, S a r a - the Sunday School rooms. Mr. and Mrs. William Crocker Ont and W e s t Century theatre last n i g h t w h e r e 30% 30% t o g a Springs, o n e brother S m i t h The body will be placed In the M e r c h a n t s ' Bureau of t h e Chamber church parlors, and followed later of Albany and Mrs. Edith W e a v e r Beniamlno Gigli, Metropolitan P a n A m e r A . . . . . . . . 62% 62% of C o m m e r c e wanted i'. understood by a program of particular interest W . Tolmie, S a r a t o g a S p r i n g s and family mausoleum at Greenrldge of Troy spent y e s t e r d a y with Mr. P e n n R R t e n o r w a s g i v i n g a concert, c a u s e d that t h e m o n e y received from the for young people. 59% 59 s e v e r a l n i e c e s and n e p h e w s . cemetery. and Mrs. George E l l s w o r t h of Front P h i l l i p s P e t r u m o r s t h a t t h e singer's life, h a d s t a t e a n d county e a c h year can57 % 58 All local Protestant churches of street. A r r a n g e m e n t s for t h e funeral Mr. Cramer is survived by one not be u s e d to reduce t h e s e bonds. a g a i n b e e n threatened, but it w a s Postum 99% 98% N E W YORK, F e b . 28 ( S t a t e D e h a r e not been completed. niece, Mrs, K a t h a r i n e S. Drake of T h e y m u s t be paid for in t h e the city will participate. T h e i n Miss E m m a V a n y o h a s returned said t o d a y that the guard had b e e n 53% partment Agriculture and M a r k e t s this city, a grand niece, Mrs. Guy regular t a x budget, It i s pointed stitute has been devised especially to Schenectady after spending the P r e s s Steel Car com . . 54% a s s i g n e d t o protect h i m from h i s 173 — W e s t e r n N e w York apple receipts 175 H. Sturges of Schenectady and a out, but t h e m o n e y received from for the young 'people of the city week end with h e r parents, Mr. and P S U admirers. 49% w e r e moderate. Trading w a s faircousin. Charles C. Ormsby of W a - the s t a t e and county can be used to devote one night a week to fel- Mrs. John V a n y o of Middle s t r e e t Rapid T r a n s secur . . . 51 T h e British novelist, F r a n c i s ly a c t i v e a n d t h e market 15% ruled 15% Miss Catherine Cassrtdy of S a r a - R a y Con Copper e a c h y e a r for other roads in the lowship, instruction, and i n s p i r a B r e t t T o u n g . will lecture a t S k i d - sllghly s t r o n g e r with v a l u e s a v e r - ts rford. 108% 109% tion. toga Springs w a s t h e g u e s t of Miss Reading com The Cramer family w a s of Ger- town. m o r e College T h u r s d a y e v e n i n g a t a g i n g higher. Grade A 2 1-2 Inch The places for the institute and A g n e s English of Ballston avenue, Repub Iron and Steel 69% 72% being Jt o'clock. H i s topic w i l l b e "The Rhode Island g r e e n i n g s wholesaled man descent, the founder P r e s i d e n t J a m e s B e v e r l y ap- the dates for each meeting follow: yesterday. Sinclair Oil 21% 21 Conrad Cramer, w h o settled upon P h y s i c i a n in Literature." within t h e price range of $3.76 to pointed t h e following c o m m i t t e e .. 108% 110 E m m e t t Collins of Van Buren Southern Pacific March 1, First Methodist. a farm in S a r a t o g a county, about Mr. T o u n g c o m p l e t e d h i s c o u r s e $4.50 per barrel depending u p o n the chairmen: Bnsineo method comstreet spent y e s t e r d a y on a fish- Southern R y com . . . . 125% 125 March 8. First Presbyterian. i n m e d i c i n e a n d had s o m e e x p e r - quality and condition. A 2 3-4 Inch three miles s o u t h w e s t of Schuyler- m i t t e e , E d w i n Welch, chairman; Studebakor 62% 53 ing trip to W h i t e h a l l . March r5, Bethesda Episcopal. vllle, prior to the Revolution. i e n c e * a s a ship's s u r g e o n . I t w a s realized $4.50 t o $5.50; occasionally s p e a k e r s ' committee, March 7, 12% 12% Mr. and Mrs. Charles Godette of x T e n n Copper March 22, N. E. Congregational. his hard y e a r s a s a doctor t o t h e $6,«t>. Conrad, the s o n of t h e pioneer John Tracy, chairman; March 14, 66% 57 this place s p e n t the w e e k end with T e x a s Co March 29, First Baptist. ooal m i n e r s around Birmingham M c l n t o s h e s A 2 1-3 Inch stock Conrad w a s a farmer In the town E d w i n W e l c h , chairman; serving T e x a s P C and O . . . . 15 15% t h a t Inspired h i m t o w r i t e "The Tha program for each m e e t i n g friends in Glens F a l l s . of Northumberland and w a s a s u - c o m m i t t e e for next w e e k , Edwin brought $5 t o $10 m a i n l y $7 t o $8 169% 169% Friends of F l o y d McMullen will U n i o n Paciflo T o u n g P h y s i c i a n , " and "The Black will be: B a l d w i n s A 2 1-2 inch fair quality pervisor In 1857. H e died about W e l c h , John Tracy and Wendell 66 be sorry to learn t h a t he is c o n - U S Rubber c o m . . . . 66 Diamond." 8:15, Fellowship supper. 1857, J a m e s L. Cramer, his ton, T o w n l e y , sold chiefly around I7.G0. fined to h i s h o m e In Milton a v e n u e x U . S. Steel c o m • • • • 169% 159% T h * lecture Is open *e t h e p u b 7 to 7:40—Bible study, "Five and father of L o u i s H. Cramer, The following visitors were InT h e o n i o n m a r k e t w a a about U S Steel pfd 129 129 W h a t a disappointment to e a t a lic a t a nominal c h a r g e . Minor P r o - by illness. w a s born In Northumberland In troduced: B. K. Walbridg«, II. B. E v e n i n g s with the t t e a d y on good atock but continued Mr. and Mrs. B e r t Clapper, Miss W e s t l n g h o u s e 73% 73% light lunch and y e t suffer for phets," the Rev. R. II. C l a x o n ; 1820 s n d died in 1881. Little, T h o m a s F. Luther, Charles dull o n off g r a d e offerings. HunHelen and Miss L e n a Clapper of W i l l y s Overland VOTXOB O r t a l l 23% 24 hours with indigestion. N o w o n "The Parables 0t Jesus," the R e v . Espey, Saratoga Springs RotarS U P R E M E COURT—Saratoga County dred pound s a c k s of yellow onion* Middlebrook a v e n u e and Mrs. S o - Woolworth Co 128% 128 der s o m a n y people are frightened Ansbern B. Deuel, Plaintiff, a g a i n s t f r o c t h e Mlddlo W e s t e r n s t a t e s at lans; Captain Mugford of the S a l - A. H. Boutwell. phia Vorce a n d daughter, Miss at the thought of gastric ulcer or 7:45, Recreation, Miss Alice Florence, w e r e recent visitors In J o h n If. Merton, Aldah Merton, t h e B a r c l a y s t r e e t pier sold a s high avtlon Army, a Rotarlan from x Ex-divldend. catarrh of the stomach, when a l l B e t h e l Merton and Ca«slus Hoff. Mifflin In charge. Troy; Captain Huntington of the Saratoga Springs. a s $3. W e s t e r n N e w York offerthey needed w a s a little Diapepsin Defendants Arthur H o y t Seott. 8 to 8:40, Mission Study. H o m e : Army of Saratoga Robert M a c W i l l i a m s of McLean In pursuance of a Judgement of i n g s w e r e v e r y poor and rarely e x - , Miss R m m a H o y t of Phlla street Salvation to neutralize acids and aid in t h a "Our Templed Hills," Miss Edith street has received word that his Springs and Mr. Small, N e w York foreclosure and sale duly mads and ceeded $1.60. d i g e s t i o n of meats, eggs, cream, yesterday received word of the city. entered In the office of the Clerk B. Harbaugh; Foreign: "Young sister w a s struck by an a u t o m o S u p p l i e s of u p s t a t e c u t carrots seasoned dishes, cheese, baked of Saratoga County In the above ensudden death a t Philadelphia, Pa., E . bile In Utlca and sustained severe The following members, of the. Islam on Trek," Miss Ruth titled action and bearing date the w e r e limited. D u e t o the irregular of her nephew, Arthur Hoyt Scott, beans and all euch foods that s o Wells. Injuries. town board of the town of Milton first day of December 1926, I, the condition saleg ranged w i d e l y . T h e often c a u s e acid dyspepsia, 62, horticulturist and manufactur- w e r e also Invited g u e s t s of the undersign" 1 - the referee In said 8:45 to 9:10, Inspirational t a l k s Edward P. B o u s q u e t w a s a busiJudgment named will sell a t Public very best arrivals Jobbed o u t at er, w h o died S a t u r d a y in the UniDiapepsin makes the s o u r e s t by different pastorsness caller in T r o y Saturday. town Auction on the 26th day of Febru- $1.80 per 100 pound «ack w h i l e t h e versity Hospital following a stroke club: William Van Buren, WASHINGTON, F e b . 28. OP)— ntomach s w e e t almost in a t w i n k l 8:15, evening watch and closing. Francis M. K e l l e y of W e s t street clerk; Walter Estes, Justice of the ary, 1037, a t four o'clock In the af- poorest sold d o w n t o $1. Texas ternoon of that day a t the front bunched carrota brought $1.60 to of apoplexy. Mr. Soott w a s widely peace e n d William Mundell, superThe temporary officers a r e : la spending a f e w d a y s with hla T h e S e n a t e w a s asked today by its ing. It reduced the feeling of b l o a t door of the Law office of W y l l y s known a s one of t h e founders of intendent of the h l f h w a y s . Dean, the Rev. Paul Morrison; mother, Mrs, D o h i g of Olens Falls c a m p a i g n f u n d s c o m m i t t e e to hold or fullness right away, stops b e l c h A. Dunham, In the Village of Cor- $3.26 p e r b u s h e l basket. the American P e o n y Society, and Welden, and w h o is confined t o h e r h o m e by in c o n t e m p t S a m u e l Instill, Chi- ing on t h e Instant, your m e a l i d i inth, N. Y., the premises directed by One n e w member, Frank Loeff- manager, Germain stomach la he w a g Treasurer of the American •aid Judgment to be sold, and therecago public utilities operator; h i s g e s t o n time, your Illness. registrar. Miss Bertha Burpee. ler, w a s welcomed to the Rotary NOTICE TO CONTKACTOmt la described a s follows: for the n e x t Iris Society. F o l l o w i n g his graduHenry Rooks of W e a t H i g h street personal attorney, D a n i e l J. S c h u y - e m p t y and ready club by Past President William William Street Sewer All that Tract or Parcel of Land, ation from S w a r t h m o r e College he la confined to h i s h o m e by illness. ler, a n d Thomaa W . Cunningham, meal. Andrews. Sealed Proposals for the furnishing situate in the Town and Village of Get a 60 cent package today of Mrs. J a m e s Carroll of Saratoga of P h i l a d e l p h i a ; treaaurer of the Corinth, County of Saratoga and [ of all material and performing the became associated with his father L a w r e n c e Sickafus is confined S t a t e of N e w York, bounded and de-1 necessary labor for the construction In business a n d a t his death waa at any drug Republican state Pape's Diapepsin T h e calendar a t Katrine Trask Springs waa t h e S u n d a y g u e s t of P e n n s y l v a n i a t o h i s home in Maple avenue with M scribed a s follows, viz: Beginning at of a six inch vitrified pipe sanitary president of t h e Scott Paper ComMrs. Robert H. M a s s e y of Milton c o m m i t t e e . •tore. ' H o u s e for the week f o l l o w s : pneumonia the intersection of Hill Avenue and | sewer, with all tha necessary Today—At 1:30 p.m., china avenue. eath s t r e e t on the south side of | laterals and manholes on William pany a t Chaster, P a . 111 Avenue, and running thence painting; a t 4, Junior A l l i a n c e ; a t Mr. Scott w a s a member of the Westerly along the south side of Hill Street from Hamilton . Street west, * 7:80 p.m., bridge; and Y. C. O. I. A v e n u e 40 feet to the northeast cor- will be received by the Commissioner Union L e a g u e a n d the University ner of Lot 2; t h e m e southerly a t of Accounts at his office in th# City c l u b of Philadelphia, t h e Borough R i g h t Worshipful Jurlan Miller a t 8 p.m. r i g h t a n g l e s to Hill Avenue U 0 feet Hall, on or before noon of the 7th Council of R o s e Valley and w a s a district deputy grand master of tho N E W YORK, F e b . 28 — XJ. 8. Tuesday—At 2:80 governing t* lands now or formerly owned by day of March, 1S27. dUrtric'. will board meeting; at 3:30, g e n e r a l government b o n d s a t 2:55 p. m , : director of t h e R o s e Valley Build- Sara toga-Warren George Hall, thenr-e easterly along All proposals must be on forms at- ing and Loan Association. H e leaves make h i s thirteenth official v i s i t a - Alliance meeting, t e a at 4 p.m.; Liberty 3 l-2"s $101.18; do first 4 s 1 Hall's north line 10S.7 feet to Ikth Street, thence northerly along tached to the specifications and all his father, B. Irvln Scott, h i s wife tion In the district tonight when and bridge a t 7:30 p.m. $100.25 bid;- d o eecond 4's $100.6 tth Street 147.1 feet to the point proposals must ba accompanied by a Thursday—Folk dancing at f; bid; do first 4 l-4*a $103.11; do s e c place of beginning. Being Lot certified check for ten (10) per cent and a daughter, Mrs. Bxton Guckes, he w i n b e greeted by Master M a ond 4 l-4*a $100.20; do third 4 1-4'a No. 1 ae laid out on a map of prop- of the contract price. of Devon, P a . Funeral services will e o n s In Olens Falls, members of t h e a t t p.m. and at 4 p.m., Frencherty of tha HiJl heirs at Palmer, Plans, specifications and forms of be held at 2 p. m., this afternoon, Olens Falls Lodge 121, F. and A Friday, supper at 6:45, Skldmore $101.11; do fourth 4 1-4'a *10S.2«; A T THE CASINO Saratoga. County. New York, made proposals can ba obtained a t the U. 8. T r e a s u r y I S-4's $104.14; fey W. S. Winchester In 1308, and office of the Commissioner of Public at Todmoren Farm, Rose Valley, his M. of t h a t eKy. Master Masons In A l u m n a e ; French at 7:80. S a r a t o g a Springs, Mechanicvllle, S o w on file in the Saratoga County Treasury 4*s $107.4; Treasury late home. Clerk's office, to which map refer- Works between the hours of • A M. 4 1-4'a $111.14. Mr. Scott will be remembered by Ballston Spa, Corinth and other ettee i s hereby made for a mors and 5 P. M. except Saturdays, on the well known organist, pianist and composer broadc***which days the office will be open many Seratoglans. Ha frequently plaoea within tha Jurisdiction a r e eomplete description. planning to attend tonight's funcfrom * A. M. to 13 M. Dated, January 3, 1137, ing through aUtion WGY. Schenectady. N. Y., will perThe P a r e n t Teacher Association visited hla grand-father, the late 8. M. RICHARDS, Contractors must visit tha site e l Rev. O s r a Hoyt. pastor of the Con- tion. will m e e t on Friday afternoon a t sonally appear with hb 10-piece Band of BAY STATE Referee, the work and ascertain for thsmselyea gregational Church at South GreenWhat might be termed the S o'clock In School S. There will The Saratoga Springs branch of .WYLLYS A DUNHAM, the exact character of the work reACES. ••Home-coming** of D e p u t y Miller be an interesting Plaintiff's Attorney, program, w i t h the W. C, T. U. will meet with Mrs. quired. Wont on said sewer is not to field. Mr. Scott's mother and Miss will occur in S a r a t o g a Sprint's, addresses and musical Corinth, N. Y. Boxes are b o n g arranged and can be reserved by callnumbers, B. T. Bloom field. Van Dam street, Hoyt were s i s t e r s . be started until spring. NOTICE OF ADJOURNMENT at 2:30 o'clock tomorrow afterMarch 7 when he will make hla and a social hour. The City Council reserves the right Tha foregoing sale Is postponed ing Saratoga 1197. noon. Tha program will be In official visitation to Rising Sun to tha 8th day of March, 1*27, a t to reject any and all bids If they charge'of the flower and fruit deREFRESHMENTS Irfxlge, 10$, the fourteenth and lutt IS o'clock In the forenoon, to be deem it to be the best Interest of the held a t the same place designated city so to do. partment of the Union and will official visitation In the district ADMISSION—Admitting One, $1.50 in the aforesaid notice. T h e usual w e e k l y drill of Co. L, tola year. Master M a s o n s By the Council. from A regular meeting of S a r a t o g a be conducted by Mra. George D, Tkim a a a a a l bell is g i v e s by the Local Council to form tbe r a s a Dated, February 2S-, 1937. 106th Inf„«wlll b e suspended to- m a n y lodges in this section of t h e HIRAM J. FKKKMAN eeatrtbate* s e e * gear to tbe X. of C. TabercaioeU BealUrlam a* Chapter. 4 1 1 , Order of t h e E a s t e r n Carr. Fine musical numbers and S. M. RICHARDS, COMMISSIONER OF ACCOUNTS, night because jpf the Knight* of ***** **"* ? t a D j " a f to attend the Btpr will be held tomorrow even- readings arey«h*lng arranged. Ail | Referee. rslsaVhiss hsll ~_^bhs*i Funerals Wall Street Briefs ROTARY CLUB GETS REPORT ON ROCK CITY FALLS ROAD PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH NOTES LEGION WOMEN ORGANIZE UNIT; E L E a OFFICERS THEATRE TICKET V PRICE FIXING UPSET BY COURT W. R. TOLMIE, ILL | TWO YEARS DEAD \ • SENATE ADOPTS CLOTURE RULE ON PROHIBITION BILL Grain Market Y. P. INSTITUTE OPENS TOMORROW Farmers' Produce BRITISH NOVELIST SPEAKER AGED STOMACHS (HWpffUL A Little Diapepsin Put* Life Into Worn Out Stomach Deaths WANT INSULL HELD BY SENATE K. T. ALLIANCE NOTES S MILLER AT 'FALLS TONIGHT Government Bonds K of C Ball TONIGHT STEPHEN E. BOISCLAIR P, T. A, MEETING W, C. T, U. MEETING TOMORROW NO CO, L DRILL TONIGHT LOCAL BRIEFS Untitled Document Thomas M. Tryniski 309 South 4th Street Fulton New York 13069 www.fultonhistory.com � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/30e85b55593b5ba05e619b458a564409.png 4a879e58b64db28dcff0b70365ea3bd1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Detail, Louis H. Cramer obituary, covering his partnershipwith Jesse Mott and work as Saratoga Springs surveyor. https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3a492186b0c0619ac5ab8f91359a13e7.pdf 147670e42c5c58341e322545a9a34c5a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Estate sale, Louis H. Cramer Estate, advertisement, The Saratogian, January 30, 1928. PDF Text Text PAGE TWEI.VTs THE SARATOG1AN, MONDAY, JANUARY 30, 1928. 7*VT"TT CORINTH NEWS PLAINTIFF FAILS TO ODD FELOWS END P R B S ACTION TO SUCCESSFUL FAIR; RECOVER ON DOG CROWDS ATTENDED Corinth school faculty, were shoppers in Schenectady Saturday. Miss Florence Allen returned yesterday to Stony Creek, where she is engaged in teaching school is that town. Lowell Atwell, Koland Cheney ami Miss Eva Butties were visitors | yesterday in Stony Creek. Mis. Charles Milligan is ill at her home in Maple street. Percy J., infant son of Mr. and Mrs. P. A. Bordeau, is ill with pneumonia at the home of his parents In Oak street. METHODIST CHURCH NOTES .Mens League Dinner at 1:30 o'clock this evening at the Flret Methodist Episcopal church. S u p . erintendent Harris 'Crandair will be the speaker. ^ The second session of the Young People's Institute will be held on Tuesday evening at the Preabyterian church, beginning with the Fellowship Supper at 6:15. All Methodist young people are urged to attend. The mtd-we«k service on Wednesday evening. Following the service there will be a meeting of the congregation for Hie purpose of electing a lay delegate and one alternate delegate to the Troy Conference I^ay Electoral conference to bo held in this city April 13. All" members of the church over twenty-one years of age are entitled to vote. ,T!ic official board will hoid Its monthly meeting following the election. The Ladies' Union will conduct a series of pyramid parties in the homes of various members on Thursday afternoon at 2:45. The women of the parish will participate. The Odds and Ends Society will meet Thursday evening a t 7:30 at the home of Mrs. Grace Edson, 134 Circular street. Miss Victoria Baker will be the assisting hostess. The Pioneer League |or Intermediates will meet for their -monthly social, and get-together supper at 5 o'clock on Friday. Troop 1, Boy Scouts will meet at *. -. Weekly choir rehearsal.,at 7:30, • UAm PV T f T717D1M17 1ST ANNUAL BALL FT. ANN DEFEATS ANDCARDPARTY OF LUZERNE VARSITY FIRE DEPT. FRIDAY HAOLEY -LUZERNE, Jan. 30 (Special) — Fort Ann High school conquered Luzerne High School at Luzerne at the week-end 29 to 23 in an Adirondack league encounter. Th-; Luzerne giiis downed Fort Ann 13 to 11. The Fort Ann Juniors defeated the local Junior* 19-8. *, , . Summaries: Fort Ann H. S. (29) FG FP T P 4 2 Allen, rf 1 3 1 Harrington, If 1 1 1 Wright, c 0 1 11 Page, rg 5 0 10 Ross, lg 5 the outiet of the lake a distance of about IS feet, two lengths of hose were stretched and the pumper was given a thorough work-out for a period of three hours. At a pressure of 120 pounds, 647 gallons of water per minute were thrown which Is more than the specifications called for. A very enthusiastic group of, townspeople watched j the demonstration and were very I much pleased. Fire Chief Walter Andrews appointed three pumper j men. William P.rown, G. Lewis Greene and Smith Harpp. These men are very apt students, according to the American La France representative, so much so that a demonstration is called for Sunday afternoon at which time the entire fire -company will be called upon to operate the apparatus. The enthusiasm displayed by the townspeople Is very evident judging from the number of tickets - that.. have been sold for the first annual ball and card party of the Volunteer Fira company to be held - in Taylor's, Luzerne, next Friday evening. * CORINTH, Jaa. 30V-(Special) — COH1KTH. Jan. 30 ( S y r i a n CARD OF THANKS HADLEV-LUZERNE, Jan. 30 Thf> action of Harry Pike of Main The 1928 Odd Fellows' fair and We wish to express our deep <.-|iccial)—Announcement has been #tit'ct. against Alfred- Newton of carnival came to a close Satur- appreciation and sincere, thanks to made by Chief Walter Andrews of Walnut street, to recover for the day evening in the lodge hall In' our fiifiidi and neighbors for the th* first annual ball and card party .©ss of a dos killed In Main street Maple street, after a large crowd kindnesses shown us and the messgivep by the Van R. Rhodes Fire several weeks ago, came to a close! had. throughout the evening, en-1 ages of sympathy extended us company in Taylor's hall next FriSaturday evening, when, due to! joyed the , sixth consecutive night during the illness, death and funday evening. fpfi non-appearance of the plain-[ of pleasure afforded by the affair.1 eral o£ our friend, John H. Wealiif In the action before Justice of Upwards of !50 were in attendance ver. To the Rev. Mr. Andrews, Music will be furnished by the tho l»*-aco Marcelius in the town Saturday evening, swelling the at- to those who sent flowers and well known Saratoga Lake Enter•ml village hall, the action was dis- tendance for the week* to nearly acted as bearers and to those who tainers from 9 until 1 o'clock'. There missed by the JusMi-e. will be both round and square 1,000. The largest single evening's' donate a the use of cars for the dancing. Lee Sandora will be the Newton, according to the com- attendance was on Friday, when j funeral, we are especially gratejiriiiouncer for square dances. At ' * Ulaint in the action was the owner the annual ball of the lodge was j ful. the same time dancing is being enMr. and Mrs. Byron Mallery. «f the car which struck the dog, given. joyed on main floor, tho balconies owned by Pike, MI Main street sevAithur Hathaway of Palmer j will be devoted to card playing. The 29 Totals 12 eral weeks ago. The plaintiff avenue was the lucky holder of winning women and gentlemen.will Luzerne H. s. (23. brought the action to recover $100, the number which took the door receive prizes. Refreshments will H. Traver, rf 6 0 3 the stipulated value of the dog. prize, on* quarter ton of coal dobo served during the evening. 9 Crannell, If * ' 1 Attorney Daniel Finn, of the law Bated by a .local coal dealer. 7 1 3 The committee in charge of th« Ramsey, c jdbn of Chamber and Finn of CJlens The Woman's Home Missionary j 1 1 C. Traver, rg 0 .-iffair is: advisory. Walter Andrews, Jlans. represented Newton before society 6t the First Methodist Epis0 0 0 tickets, andGeo'rge Cranston; music, Visscher, lg ^he Justice and requested the di*- copal church will meet in the Kenneth White and Richard Black; ewissal of the action when Pike church parlors tomorrow afternoon 3 23 Totals .. 10 refreshments, G. L. Greene. George felled to pot in an appearance. to tie quilts. Half time—Fort Ann 13-7. Holder, Guy Wright, and Mortimer ti F,oeaIs. Referee—Taylor. Pulver; floor, Gordon Harris and • The Misses Virginia Eddington LeRoy Folta Made Yardmaster. LeRoy Folta of Center street, The Fort Ann High School girls' William Brown. and Carita VanAuken, students of CORINTH, Jan. 30 (Special) — This affair is the first of it's kind lineup was: Jtjie Oneonta State Normal School employed at the Corinth D. and H. A large number of tickets have station for the past six years, was Field goals, Shelden, rf; 2; Goodever held in Luzerne or Hadley. It Were over-Sunday % isitors at their promoted Saturday to the position already been sold by members of Is th© first social affair of the fire man, If, 3; Smith, c; field basS o m e s here. , the Senior class of the Corinth Sheldon; Bradway, rg; company ever organized in the kets, »>Miss Ethel Brennan is ill with of yardmaster, recently vacated by High School for the Tubbs' EnAndrew Calconi. Mr. Catconi will two towns. It is expected that the Camp, rg; Wright, lg. tansilitis at the home of her parsemble program to be given tolargest crowd of the year will atLuzerne High School girls: Field | $ t s t Mr. and Mrs. Martin Bren- take up his new duties as assist- morrow evening in the First Bapant yardmaster in Glens Falls on The Saratoga County Livestock tend this dance, and all indications goals, Wood, rf; Visscher, If; Rednan, Oak street. tist phurch this village. point to a large out of town attend- lin, and Howe, lg; field baskets; Wednesday. ( Howard Cornell and Percy EgMembers of the Ensemble who Tuberculosis Committee will meet ance. Everyone interested in fire Redlin, 2; Wood! and Howe, 2; gleston of Saratoga Springs were contribute to the program are: t* the Farm Bureau office In the protection should help make this xecent callers at the home of Mr. and Mrs. R. B. York, Palmer ave- Ruth Marguerite Tubbs, soprano, Saratoga National Bank building annual ball and card party a suc- Visscher; Thompson, rf; Gilroy, rg*-. TUbbs, lg. nue. organ soloist and accompanist; tomorrow afternoon at 1:30 o'clock. cess, those in charge urge. Fort Ann Juniors — Field goals, D. W. Carpenter, chairman, will ' Mrs. William Nelson, who has j Gertrude Lois Tubbs, contralto; Miss Helen Wright while playing White, rf; Churchill, rf; Manning, preside at the meeting. The work • •-1921 Special Studebaker touring been caring for her aunt, Good condition. Josephine Higgins, for the Mrs.! Belle Tubbs Hay, mezzo-soprano; of the past three months will be basketball Friday night cracked c, 2; Rathbun, If; field baskets. gSr for sale past! and Robert Burdett Tubbs, bari- reviewed and a discussion will take her collar bone. Dr. G. R. Thomp- Churchill, rf; 2; Rathbun, If, 3; priced very reasonable. Phone several, weeks, returned yesterday tone. place relative to activities for the son was called. Wright rf; Graham, rg; Welsh, rg; 130-2t jf$orintr 69-F-3. - A d v to her home in New Yor^k city. next three months. Routine busiWebster, fg. . Mrs. James Kendall was enter- j ness will also be transacted. r£ Luzerne Juniors, Held goals, tained Saturday at her home in Smith, rf, 2; Roider, If, 1; field basMain street. In honor of her 66th' kets, Smith, and Stowell, c; Stone, Lake was the week end guest at birthday. Her sister, Mrs. William j rg; Gillies, lg. the home of her nephew, Eugene Wendell, and several of her chil-J Satisfactory Test of Pumper. Hanlin, Center street. dren And grandchildren, wereI The new combination chemical Jr. O. IJ. A. M. Meetings. among those present to enjoy the | and »pumper purchased from the The regular meeting of the Adi* evening with Mrs. Kendall. American La France company, I The Misses Margaret Rudeer and CORINTH, Jan. 30.—(Special)— rondack Council, Jr. O. U. A. M., stood a very satisfactory test Friwill be held tomorrow evening at Rosabel Parker, members of the The lowest temperature of the day afternoon under the direction SOLD BY D R U G G I S T S season was recorded in the village 8 o'clock in the Odd Fellows* hail, of Mr. Farr with th© assistance of Maple street. Councilor H. P. this morning, when reports coming A very successful program was several members of the Van R. to the office of The Saratogian Fenton of the council urgently re- given at Shackelford Hall, Saint Rhodes Volunteer Fire company. from various sections of the vil- quests that all members of the Faith's School on Saturday even- The suction hose was lowered Into lage showed thermometers register- installation staff, who plan to par- ing at another in the chain of ing from 14 degrees below zero to ticipate in the installation of offi- parties being given for the benefit cers of the Col. Roosevelt Council of Katrina Trask Alliance. 22 below. in Saratoga Springs on next J'onTO SETTLE ESTATE OF LOUIS H. CRAMER, A very clever play in one act, Upper Main street, considered I day evening, be present at the DECEASED. "The Maker of Dreams" was preone of the coldest sections of the j meeting for rehearsal. Automobiles driven by Peter sented by Jane Lehman as Pierrot; Fleming, chauffeur for County The undersigned, executors of the estate of Louis H. village, showed 22 below at 7 a. m , District Deputy Torrence Swift Janet Babcock a s Pierrette; and Judge Lawrence B. McKelvey, and while at the Commercial hotel in Cramer, deceased, will sell at public auction at the front Maple* street at the same hour, 19 | of this village will be In charge Dream Maker, Ruth Chegnay. William Foley, 23 Leonard street, door of the Tov«n Hall in the City of Saratoga Springs, There was an Italian Folk Dance, Glens Falls, were in collision at below was registered. In lower of the installation. According to | N. Y., on Tuesday, January 31st, at 2 o'clock P. M.. the Pine street the lowest tempera- I the present plans ofjthe officials of by the Freshman physical educa- Caroline street and Broadway at sufficient tion class that attracted much in- 8:55 o'clock this morning. The Mcfollowing described real property: ture reported was 17 below be- | the local council, if a tween 6 and 7 a. m. At 8 o'clock j number of members signify their terest. The chorus, See the Harvest Kelvey car was damaged. Parcel Number One. vacant lot 50 feet x 150 feet the large thermometer in front of I desire to witness the installation Moon is Shining, was well renderon the west side of Broadway, adjoining the premises of the Odd Fellows' building in Main of officers in Saratoga Springs, a ed; and Miss Eleanor Corey was local auto bus will be engaged to heard in a piano number which Lewis H. Hays on the northerly side thereof. street, showed 12 degrees below. showed possession of real talent. convey to members to that city. Parcel Number Two, premises at northeast corner of Personals. — - . , . , . , , • • • » • • .„-„-i , Miss Jeanne Gregory and Miss Jay Saratoga Chapter, 131, Order of Church and Clinton Streets, containing stores and living Walter Priester of Pine street HalUck, danced gracefully an ath- the Eastern star will give the first underwent an operation in the letic dance; and the Senior class public card party to be given in the j apartments; lot 100 feet x 150 feet. Saratoga hospital this morning. staged a Marionette show. The newly repaired Masonic Temple toTERMS OF SALE dance of the jumpir/j jacks was morrow evening. Mrs. Cline Z. Miy* Kenneth Beck of Oak street un10% of the purchase price will be required at the admirably presented by the Soph- amoto, the chairman, requests derwent an operation in the Saraomore-Junior Physical Education those making up tables to bring toga hospital on Saturday morntime of sale/ the balance to be paid on delivery of Deed class; while Miss Katherine Hoppe their own cards. ing. ten days from the date of sale. played a piano number with exMrs. M. Flynn and Mrs. GerThere will be prizes and refreshDated. January 2 3, 1928. cellent skill and the senior physical ments. trude Sweeney and daughter, Cleta /. education class danced the HighFREDERIC J. RESS£GUIE, May, are visiting for a few days with relatives in Schenectady. CORINTH, Jan. 30.—(Special)— land Fling with perfect rhythm. HELEN H. RESSEGU1E. CJp£n§ Mrs. Nellie Sweeney has return- The annual masquerade dance of Tho closing chorus was Tales of Checks the BoWs Executors of the Last Will and Testament of Louis H. ed to her home in Palmer avenue the Employes* Mutual Benefit As- Hoffman by Offenbach. thtrewr r*\ Tone* The program was given as Mrs. following a two weeks visit with sociation of the I. P. company will Cramer, Deceased. Stops r'CV M nthr relatives in Schenectady. be held next Friday evening m the Charier H. L. Ford's party in the the Cold \ ' W L7-rSy««"» Mrs. Eugene Murphy of Friends Community hall, Pine street, ac- chain for Katrina Trask House. cording to an announcement made -! Saturday by Russell Shippee, chairman of the social committee of tne v —Fred A. Storrs, secretary of association. ' Both round and square dancing the local Chamber of Commerce, g^g\W n # 2 * Pour things from Rochester, win be enjoyed, according to the hrs returned l / U l i V O you most do where he attended the New York announcement, to music which wid to end a cold quickly. HILL'S CaaState Secretary's Conference. be furnished-'by the Queen Lake cara-Bromide-Qninine does all four M. Thompson, Entertainers of Lake George, aug- .—Dr. William county veterinarian, has returned at one time. Stops a cold in one day. mented for the occasion by "Chief from Syracuse, where he attended Red box, 30 cents. All druggists. White Cloud," who will play the the wedding of his sister. saxaphone.' Prizes of $5.00, $3.00 and $2.00 respectively will be awarded for the VISIT OUR MOD^L R 6 6 M & g individual wearing the first, second and third best costumes that evening. Luncheon will be served At this time of year, the finest of during the course of the evening. LARGE ADVANCE SEAT SALE FOR SENIOR CONCERT 22 BELOW ZERO AT CORINTH TODAY ATI V E AND L I V E R TABLETS AUCTION r Uxath/9 \Bromo Quininei Grip, Influenza and many Pneumonias begin as a common ct-lj. Price 30c. The box bears this signature *--Proven Merit sine* 1889—* Frankly, The Victory has left current practice so £u behissd that comparisons are impossible. CoaaarratiTe drivers will never really discover the car'e astonishing resources. They will delight In its pick-up and low gas needsIts comfort and streamline beauty; But the magnificent, all-day speed of the car—its faultless smoothness over clods and cobbles—are thrills that await the adventurer! Six powerful cylinders are six powerful reasons for this; A seventh vital reason is the basic Victory ideal -\ For the first time in motor car history, chassis and body axe a unit. Floor and seats are built in the chassis^ The wide Victory chassis frame replaces die customary body sill—and eliminates the customary body overhang. The body itself has only 8 major parts! SAINT FAITH'S PUPILS PRESENT CLEVER PROGRAM SALE 1UrV So ORIGINAL AND DIFFERENT that Comparisons are Impossible LIVESTOCK T. B. MEETING B00TH-0VERT0N When You Feel a Gold Coming On The result is 173 less pounds, 330 less parts; standard road and head clearance, yet a car that is extremely low, steady and safe—with a power plant stripped for instant and brilliant action! And the smartest car at the price ever created! .(•••' AUTOMOBILE COLLISION •1095 4-DOOft SEDAN, O. B, DETROIT Tunc la for Dodge Brothers Radio f.Program every Thursday Night, 8 to 8:30 (Eastern Standard Time) NBC Red Network. Ford PKOHB 242 38 DIVISION ST., SARATOGA SPBINOS, N. T. Main Office: Oleni Palls. K. W. Prindle, Inc., SchnylerTille. Bruno's Oarage, Mechanicville Thompson St. Garage, Ballston Spa, N. T. Corinth Garage Co. 0, E. S, CARD PARTY ICTOKY EMPLOYE'S ASSOC. MASQUERADE TO TAKE PLACE FRIDAY G E ' B K O T H E H S . Six INC. TUl SENlOa SIX AND AMUUCA'S FASTEST SOUS ALSO ON DISPLAY .'N'MIW.UU—1—,II ''.' ... ' , m PALACE I — TONIGHT 7.15 and 9 25c He's an absolute nut with a pocketof peanuts and lanj-h In every peanut! PERSONAL MENTION oaern SUNN TRVON AXO ^ WITH MIUEA **} RADIO SOCKET POWER programs are being broadcast by a hundred radio stations. If run-down batteries are preventing you from listening to these musical tresis* get a Philco and enjoy them. W-A-I-T i i ' WHOLE TOWN'S :- TALKING A FEBRUARY FURNITURE | S-A-L-E JOE GREEN'S Special 5 6 2 SUITS " * " * ' , The snap of a switch brings you Jight when you want it. This same dependable service is made available in your radio set by the installation of a Philco. Our LOW PRICES that we will feature during this SALE on our entire stock will startle this community. AT A SACRIFICE $14.50 and $17.50 Every Suit worth $24.50 to $34.50. tveiy suit all woo! end well tailored. When in Schenectady give us a call I At the Old Established place —412 State St.. Schenectady. This modern convenience is priced rery low. Moreover, if you desire a small down payment and the balance monthly will install the Philco. 491 Broadway Saratoga Springs Phone 62 TOMORROW AND WEDNESDAY - F O R OUR — The Philco AB Radio Socket Power operates any radio set, irrespective of the number of tubes, from your lighting circuit. It eliminates all A and B dry batteries, as well as the ordinary A storage battery. Plugged into the nearest convenience outlet, it provides unfailing 'AC ' operation. • Laurel-Hardy Comedy "PUTTING THE PANTS ON PHILLIP*' Serial "MAN WITHOUT A FACE" Chapter 1. 64 Milton Ave. Ballston Spa Phone 89 B SALE STARTS WITH A CRASH ON Joe Green's Clothes Shop fir g Thursday Morning | WATCH PAPERS Upstairs 412 STATE ST. Remember the Number, 412. Opposite the Wallace Co. Same Block as Carl Co. Untitled Document MBSSHSSJI | t Stores at Gleas Falls, Saratoga, Herkkner, Schenectady. Glens Herkl P^sss1la^^SIIS?^a4aWSP^Lai Thomas M. Tryniski 309 South 4th Street Fulton New York 13069 www.fultonhistory.com METRO—^iOLDWYN—MAYER NEWS TPF JACK DUFFY COMEDY—"SCARED PINKH I I � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e391df7fd30f71de8b133cc21013c697.pdf 7a657d1c6425f39ac87bef55f45c6880 PDF Text Text THE SARATOG1AN, 'WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 1, 1926.* P A Q 9 '-'WO CRAMER PROPERTY IN CHURCH STREET SOLD FOR $17,900 EVENTS T0HI8HT Preparation Service at Preaby terian church at 7:45 o'clock. Election of lay delegate follow lag mid week service at Metho diaf Episcopal church at 7:45. Official board meeting following election. NO DECISION AS TO CAUSE OF CRASH TAKING TWO LIVES Deaths PINCHOT CHARGES STATE EMPLOYES ATTACK STRIKERS DIED—Suddenly at 5:30 p, no, January 31, 1928. Grace Newton Smith, daughter of the late George W. Smith and Mrs. Mary Brlckett. Funeral from the late residence, 23 Greenfield avenue, Friday afternoon at 3 o'clock. The Rev. Irving G. Rouillard officiating. Burial in Greenridge cemetery. » Commonwealth Employed to Break Strike He Alleges in Johnson Letter. Markets At a Glance BY T H E ASSOCIATED FBKSS New York Stocks—Irregular; rail shares sold on poor December earnings. Bonds—Steady; New York Traction liens In demand. Foreign exchanges—Mixed; Sterling lower; Spanish pesetas rise 12 points. Cotton—Lower; easier foreign cables. Sugar—Easy; disappointing spot market. Coffee—Higher; European buying. Chicago Wheat—Firm; unfavorable winter wheat reports. Corn—Higher; smaller receipts. Cattle—Steady to weak. Hogs—Dower.. • NEW YORK, Feb. 1.—<A»)—Renewal of selling pressure against the railroad shares, presumably in reflection o t the disappointing December railroad statements now being published turned the course of prices reactionary today after an early period of quiet strength. Trading, which had been dull on the rally, quickened perceptibly when large selling orders appear- CONTINUE WOOD CHANGE IN ORDER CUTTING CASE IN OF ROAD BUILDING OBJECT OF BILL SUPREME COURT (Continued from page one.) BALLSTON SPA, Feb, 1. (Special)—Trial of the $1,200 damage tlon of highways in these countlea suit brought by Seymour Buggies shall proceed equitably with the against Royal B. Dyer to recover other counties ot the State, a s far for wood alleged to have been cut as practicable, a s provided in secWASHINGTON. Feb. 1. O -» W FUSCO — In Saratoga Springs, No decision as to the cause of on Ruggles* property by Dyer, was tion 121, chapter 30, laws of 1909. Two parcels of land from the esRegular meeting, Alice Lee resumed at the opening of Supreme The bill is awaiting consideration tate of Louis H. Cramer, deceased, Roosevelt Council, D. of A., in Odd the accident wheih took the Uvea January 18, 1928, to Mr. and Mrs. Charges that the authority of the of J. Arthur Dumont, taxi driver: Anthony Fusco, 11 Oak street, a commonwealth of Pennsylvania "1J Court here this morning and indi- in committee. were sold at public auction yester- Fellows hall at 8 o'clock. being now, and has been for a and Mrs. Grace E. Brown, 55, of j . cations at noon were the case Richard Fusco. day afternoon in front of the town important to County. year, employed to break the pre* South Pearl street, Albany, early would go to the jury during tho hall by the executors, Frederic J. The bill Is of particular interest Regular meeting. Women's Bene- yesterday morning waa given by COLEMAN — In Saratoga ent bituminous strike" were made early afternoon. Resseguie and Helen H. Ressegule, fit Association, American Legion in Saratoga County because, if Dr. William C. Treder, Scotia cor- Springs, January 28, 1828; to Mr. today by Gifford Pinchot, former Dyer claims he did not know he mad© a law, it will give f e Board to settle the estate. Home, a*. 8 o'clock. and Mrs. James P. Coleman, 18 governor of Pennsylvania. i oner, who Investigated the acclwas on Ruggles' property and has of Supervisors power, by a twoWilliam McNeary paid $17,900 i dent. At his home it was said that Russell street, a son, Ronald Porintroduced evidence that the wood thirds vote, to change the ore1' r of Pinch#t's statement waa confor the premtsea at the northeast Re/tgular conclave, Washington he would not be ready to mak his ter. cut is not as valuable a s Ruggles construction of county highways, tained in a letter to Senator Johncorner of Church and Clinton Commandery. 33, Knights Templar, decision for another day or two, a s claims. Ruggles fixed the value of over which the board now has no who LA GALLES — In Saratoga gun, Republican, California, street, containing stores and liv- Masonic Temple, at 8 o'clock. thete were angles of the situation Springs, N. Y., at the Saratoga is asking the senate to investigate the wood at $400 while the defense jurisdiction, having once fixed the ing apartments on a lot of 100 feet which he wished to further inves- Hospital, January 29, 1928, to Mr. conditions In the "bituminous fields claims it was not worth over $50. order from the old Hewitt n a p . by 150 feet. Morris Feller, proRehearsal of play, "Civil Serv- tigate. Bent Case Ready and Mrs. Joseph LaGalles of Mid* of Pennsylvania and West Virprietor of the Summer Rest Cot- ice" by Pioneer Players following According to Saratoga < 'nty ofThe action brought by Samuel Dumont and Mrs. Brown were die Grove, a son, Joseph J. ginia. tages was the other Interested bid- mid week service at New England killed when the taxi which the man Krauss against Theresa J. Hulett ficials the present bill had its orig"Many gunmen and other bad der. Congregational church. Supper at was driving for Ronald Swartfigand William Hulett, to recover for ination Jn the State Bureau of characters," Pinchot wrote, "have The lot 50x150 on North Broad- 6:30 o'clock. rent due on a store at 76 Henry Highways, the purpose being to ure, thia city, crashed into a northre-appeared in the strike regions • •>' way, adjoining the property of I* street, Saratoga Springs, and a give preference to certain Important bound B. and M. freight train at bearing the commissions of the H. Hays, on the north waa bid in barn at the rear of the store, was highways on the Green map which, 2:55 o'clock yesterd'ty morning. state and exercising its power as under the present law, cannot be by Carleton J. King, representing Mrs. Brown was killed instantly coal and iron police; and numer- ed in some of the* popular, issues. ready to go on trial this afternoon started until after the roads on the A regular convocation of Rising and Dumont died an hour and a unnamed parties. The price anA five point , break. In western as soon as the wood cutting case Hewitt map, given preference, have ous assaults upon men, women and Sun chapter, R. and A. M. will be halt later in the Ellis hospital. aounced was $1,025. waa out of the way, children have been committed by Maryland common started the sellHarold R. Espey, president of held in the Masonic Temple nt Schenectady. A third occupant of Krauss claims that on May 6, been constructed. men especially commissioned to ing movement. In Saratoga County there still are the Van Voast and Leonard Real 7:30 o'clock tomorrow night. All th* taxi, Miss Cleary, 32, who lived 1926, Publication of the unfavorably store he leased the Henry street two highways on the Hnvitt map keep the peace and enforce the to the defendants for one Estate agency, waa the other bid- officers are requested to be present with Mrs. Brown, suffered a cut. quarterly report of the United year, the'rent being fixed at $15 remaining unconstructed, first on for rehearaal after the meeting. over the right eye, and slight head der. J. Bernard Marauth, automobile law." States Steel corporation apparently a month, payable in advance. The the list being the Lapes CornersSaratoga Council, 246, Knights and body bruises. salesman of Brooklyn, and a World had been fairly well discounted, l e a s e w a s t o b e c o m e effective June Ballston Lake Highway. The other Edmund L. Brown, Jr., 36 Gar- War veteran, told City Judge F. of Columbus, will entertain the and traders appeared more inter 1, 1926, and the defendants took is the Saratoga Springs end of the broken participants in "Flashes of 1928" field place, a son of the dead wo- Andrew Hall a tale of ested in the further increase in possession of the store on that date Saratoga Springs-Gansevoo. 5, high" with a banquet at the New Wor- man and a trainman for the same l health, due to a touch of gas In TROY* N. Y„ Feb. 1. OP)—Five I den hotel Tuesday evening, Febru- railroad on* whose tracks Mrs. the World War, cthia morning, and jurors had been secured at noon the mill operations of the corpor- but vacated on January 1, 1927. He way, the so-called Gick road. Favor Round Lake Road. Brown was killed, claimed hia was discharged on a charge of Jn« in the trial of Bert Amond for.the ation to around 89 per cent of asks for $105 for rent due from ary V, at 7 o'clock. • June 1 to January 1. mother's body. Brown said Miss toxication to which he at Provided the Bartholomew bill is J first murder of his wife in a department capacity. For a second cause of action, the made law, it will be possible for Cleary and his mother had gone pleaded not guilty, and then chang- store last July. Steel common opened s point to Saratoga Monday morning by ed his plea. Attorney John P. Judge,, defense lower but had recovered the loss plaintiff charges he rented a barn the board of supervisors to glvo • at the rear of the store to the de- preference to the Clifton. ParkSaratoga county veterana of the trolley, but evidently had missed counsel, announced that Amond by raid-day. When he waa arrested in the last car returning, so decided fendants from month to month at a Round Lake highway. * world war who attended the leg- thecome by taxi. A question of astronomy came Mac Finn Drug company store in would take the witness stand in his The closing was irregular. The to This highway long hao been lookown behalC Mr. Judge asserted list was I olstered up to Some ex- rental of $5 monthly and the barn up today when Dr. G. Scott Towne, islative dinner given by th« State was used by the defendants from Ronald Swartfigure, proprietor Broadway last night, he had Just who spoke yesterday to the Friend- American Legion organization for of the Swartfigure Taxi Service dropped a bottle of beef, wine and the defendant would testify that tent in the final hour- when new June 1, 1926 to July 1, 1927. On this ed upon by th© State Bureau of . Highways a s the most important members of the legislature who because of the condition of his buying began to appear In various ship Lurcheon Club at the T, M. whom Du- iron to the floor, breaking it. A,t saw world war aervice, in Albany company, Saratoga, by driver and police headquarters search dis- mind on the day of the tragedy, he specialties. Wright Aer6nautical, rentage, however, tho defendants proposed construction in Saratoga C. A. railed The Saratogian's atmont was a careful are entitled to $60 credit, $50 for county from a general standpoint -. tention to a technical error mak- last night Included the Rev. "never drank." He said he himself closed that he was carrying amall did not realize what he was doing. Internrti nal Match preferred, Charles H. L. Ford, commander had returned yeaterday morning bottles of peppermint, 85.5 per- Expert witnesses will be called to Transue Williams and International paints and $10 cash. The plaintiff*^,, l t w i u c o n s i j e r a b l y sh, i„en the ing a mixup in figures that would asks for $115 all told. driving distance between Albany probably leave the world in total of th« Saratoga County Depart- to find a note from Dumont saying cent alcohol; spirits of ammonia, substantiate his claims, it was Business * Machine made material The defendants do not deny they and Saratoga Springs. said. ment; Jesse M. Cavanaugh. chair- he had got a fare. darkness for at least 4'i years 65.5 percent alcohol, and a broadvances, the last named reaching signed a lease for the stoi-e but That the Saratoga County Board man of the Fourta Judicial Dis•--if it were true. 130, a new peak. Diamond Match charge the store in January 1927 of Supervisors also considers it a There are neither gates nor sig- mide. He told the judge that his The time elapsed between a sun trict; Edward Howland, all of nal lights nor bells at the cross- health was broken in Brooklyn, sold a s high as 160 on odd lot pur r was damaged by fire and the most important rout© i j shown by and John Shryer, ing, and the few accidents which and that Saratoga Springs was ray's departure frcm the sun it- Saratoga; chases and Peoples Gas, after- plaintiff' refused to make necessary the fact that the board recently self, and its reception here is but Thomas F. Reilley, and James have occurred there have been recommended to him as a place breaking to 180, rebounded to 186 repairs whereupon they vacated. placed it first on the order of con8 minutes and 20 seconds, and not Conway of Meehanicville. minor. Authorities said they be- where he could come and recuper1-j; another new maximum. Total The defendants, under the terms struction on the Green map. t lieved this was the first fatal ac- ate. He said that he intended to 4"-i yeara as . t a U d in The Sarasales approximated 2,000,000 shares. of the lease, were permitted to reIt is believed that Saratoga cident to occur at Freeman's cross- spend a few days in the Saratoga togian yesterday. <Quotations furnished by Fo?t*rc lease the store ,for ,. another year 1 county was included in the Barthol. , A . ing. hospital, and then begin drinking The 4H years is the distance be\Se Adams, 127 Wall Street, Schenpurpose of en b m f f h tween this planet and its nearest Mrs. .Brown had lived at the the waters. The medicine, was joctady. members of tho New York at the end of the first year and couraging the Board of Supervisors with in repairs according expended this In mind they to their purchased for an ulcerated tooth, star neighbor, mea«ur2d in light South Pearl street address sixteen $300 j Stock Exchange. Phone 846t> of Saratoga County to has.en proyears. Her son, her husband, Ed- he said. years, and the stai1 _ln Sltiat. "Northern New York and the j Open Close allegations. They, also sold the ceedings for the construction « " V i mund L. Brown, Sr., a sister, Mrs. There sre 3 stars within a d'.o'ance plaintiff paints and varnishes Clifton Tark-Round Lake route. Valley possess more | Allls Chalmers 116% 116 "I'll take a chance on you," the Mohawk Martin Wadaworth, and a brother, l of 10 light years. Clothing for three children, Joseph P. Wagner, both of Rens- judge said, and sent the veteran charm, beauty and natural advan- American Beet Sugar 16 /4 18 % amounting to $96 in value arid In a to see Henry Schrade, in charge tages and hav© greater industrial American Can com . . ' 75% 75% J counterclaim ask for a judgement worthy and deserving; is sought by selaer, survive. of veteran relief. T h e man w a s potential opportunities than any American Car and Fdy 110% 109% of $296 against the plaintiff, William A. Hennessey. *up rlnThe funeral of Mr. Dumont will well dressed, and spoke with evi- other region in the United States," American Ice Secys . . 33% 33% Anothony J. LaBelle is attorney tendent of the Saratoga branch of be conducted tomorrow morning at declared George A. Lawyer, for- American Loco 114 113% for the plaintiff and Henry S, NEW YORK, Feb. 1 MP)—U. S. the-. Mohawk and Hudson River 9 o'clock at the home of Mr. and dence of careful training. mer Chief United States Game American Smelters com 175% 176% Baehler is attorney for the defendjvernment Bonds at 2:55 p. m.: Humane Society, who today Issued Mrs. Nelson B. Bootter. 277 Nelson auts. Warden and now second vice-pres- American Sugar Ref . 1t%, 73 Liberty 3 1 -is.101.23; Do first fs, an appeal to those persons having avenue where he boarded and at THe ' day calendar for • tomorrow 101.10. bid: Do first 4 l-4s, 103.1; suitable clothing to communicate 9:80 o'clock at S t Clement's Cathident and, managing director of American Tel and Tel 179% 179% includes: Samuel Krauss against Do third 4 l-4s, 100.13: Do fourth So him at once. the New York Development Asso- American Tobacco . . . 168% 168 olic church. The body will be placed A l-4s. 103.25; Treasury 4 l-4s, 115 ciation, Inc., of Watertown, speak- Anaconda Copper . . . . 56% 56% Theresa J. Hullett and ant'.he:-, He seeks clothes ana shoes for in the Greenridge receiving vault. rent; Certrude Dickenj a " Charles bid; Do, 4s, 110; jPo 3 3-4s, 107.5; two girls, seven and eight years ing before a meeting of the Board Athieon com 187% 186% Dickens against Edward Adams » The fifth annual banquet of tho Do 3-1-8*. 102.171 of Directors and reforestation com- Baldwin Loco 243% 250 old, and a boy, five years old. They ana another, negligence; Bartolo- employes and members of the firm *m • i • mittee of the Chamber of Com- Baltimore and Ohio . . . 113% 113% are living in a rural section of th» company meo Gosso against Joseph Cham- of E. D. Starbuck and merce, held yesterday afternoon. Ba^risdsji A . . . . . . . . . 24 24 county, n * said, and the mother is bers and others, negligence; Eliza- was a recent most enjoyable event Air. Lawyer is here tp explain to Beechnut . r . . . . . . . 81' 80% beth Alden, Annie -' Bewvray, and * t Tfae Ejnawood. A most appjetlz;, ili. SEe/o weather has caused much Miss Grace Newton Smithy a business men of, Saratoga Springs Butte Superior 10 { 10% Charles Ben way agalns ( t Elme* C. t n g menu was served. suffering In the little home, due to well-known young woman of this C1\ICAQ6, Feb. * Otfr-liA LONDON, Feb. 1. OP)—Wrthlff aridj .vicinity the objects' arid pur- Bethlehem Steel com . 57% 57 WlfEAT—March 130 3-8; May lack ^ t warm clothing. community, died suddenly last Alden, negllgeftce; George L. JohnThe program waa one of unusual Persons having clothing which evening at 5i30 o'clock of heart the brick walls of St. Columba's1 poses, o'f the "Association, of which Canadian Pacific 131. • .206 205% son against Elmer E. Taylo-, negli- interest, with W.Rowland-Carr actChurch, Belgravia, into whlctr the he is, managing director. "The Cas* Iron Pipe . . . . . . 211 210 v cdHN—March 89 1-4; Msy 91 the'y will g' « to the rucering 'hild- trouble at her home, with Mrs. gence; Armand Wilbr.- against ing as toaatmaster. Short talks came Association," he stated, "was con3-4. ren, are asked to telephone JCf. William Hay Bockes, 23 Greenfield whirl of London's traffic, Cerro do Pacco . . 65%* 65% George Blessing and another, were given by Loyal A. Norton, only as a faint hum, the body of ceived by prominent business men OATS—March 54 7-t; May C3 Hennessey at 169-J a* soon as pos- avenue. Miss Smith had b*cn a Earl Haig, leader of Britain's ard i e s ' and Ohio ...... 196 195% money damages; Catherine ' iro Sr., 'Miss Kathryn H. £tarbuck, 3-4. sible. member of the Bockes household mies in the world war, lay in of Northern New York who awak- C M and St Paul com 16% 16 and Frank Gero against Laura Do- George D. Carr, Edgar D. Starbuck, ened to the necessity of immedi- C R I and P , . 110 109 practically all her life, and ws»s solemn state today. lan, negligence; Fred C. Weir. Eliz- Jr., and J-. A. Mctlreath. A very ate action to stimulate business, Con Cigars beloved by a larga clrccle of real 83 83 abeth Weir, infant, and Mcbel Weir cleverly presented sketch, AdAll day thousands of his coun- to aid our industries, and to bring Col Fuel and Iron . . . 83% 81% against Roulier Chamberlain comfriends, with whom she had coma Dressing Down, was presented with trymen and women filed reverent- in new industries natural to our Cons Gas into contact. 126% 126% pany, Inc., negligence; Paul Ser: the following participants as tho ly by the bier with quiet footsteps region. Corn Prods com 68% 69% ard against Anson* i>. Collins and able amateurs: Miss Eleanor M. She was possessed of a delight- In silent tribute to their dead. Made by the Clerk of the Board of Supervisors of Saratoga "The most important Item on Crucible Steel . . . . » . , 86% 87% another, negligence; James Peacock Durfee, Miss Frances V. Daly, Abful personality, kindly and pltaslng A motionless figure in the uniCounty, Pursuant to Section 51 of the "County Law" to all, and In spite of a sorions form of the Royal Horse Guards our program is reforestation and Dodge A . . . . . , ' . - . , . . . . 20% 19% against Caruso, Rlnelli, Battaglla ram Millward, Loyal A. Norton, Jr., Company, Inc., negligence; William and Miss Alice McCabe. 174 173 heart trouble, was a cheerful as stood with head bent over sword contemplates tho planting of a bil- D and H slstant in many activities in which at* each corner of the coffin as the lion trees within th© next fifteen Eastman Kodak com 164% 166% Segal against Solomon SchonbergThose present were: she took an interest and was al- line of mourners made its way years and the planting of one hun- Erie com . . . . . . . . . . . . 59% 57% e<r, goods sold and delivered; James Edgar D. Starb.ick, Jr., Miss ways a loyal, devoted worker. Sh* past tho body of the field marshal. dred million trees annually there- Erie 1st pf<^ 66 59% J. Connelly, administrator, and Kathryn H. Starbuck, Mr. and Mrs. was especially beloved by many or In the sorrowful procession were after until oUr four million acres of Fr mous. Players L F 112% 113% George t). Slingerland against Lov- Loyal A. Norton, Sr,, Mr. and Mrs. . .{Continued) the household at the Home cf the former service men, some of whom idle waste lands are reforested," General Cigars 72% 78% illa Safford and others, negligence; George D. Carr, J. A. Mcllreath, Good Shepherd, where she was fre- limped painfully, women who wept Mr. Lawyer said, "Our region was General Electric 130% 130% Jennie Lake and, Harry O. Lake Mrs. E. D. Starbuck, Morgan LarDAY quently a visitor in years past. silently and others who sobbed built up and prospered on its lum- General Motors . . . . . . 133% 333% Against Fred F. , Dye Fireproof sen.Mr. and Mrs. M. Malsonneuve, Allowed Claimant Nature of Claim Claimed She waa the daughter of the late audibly, men who came almost au- ber resources, but with the re- Gt Northern pfd . . . . . . 94% 94% Warehouse, Inc., negligence; Lewis Mr. and Mrs. T. Andrews, Mr. and iro oo 110 Q O George W. Smith, and Mrs. Mary tomatically to the gesture of salute moval of our forests many of our Gt Northern Ore . . . . 23% 23% Hudson against Mary "'. Tryon, Mrs. Abram Millward, Mr. and Dti Thompson, medical services , 202 66 IT. B. 8, Kailian, health otflcer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S&3 65 Brickett Her survivors Include and others who bowed their heads Industries were compelled to close Inspiration Copper . . . 19% 19% negligence; Adaline Sweet against Mrs. Lewis Avery, Mr. and Mrs. 11 84 The Saratugian, print iBf . . . . . . . . . .',.*>. * *.*••»..», down or to move to other states xlnt Paper 70% Clarence Snow, negligence; Luigi John Carr, the Misses Alice Mc72 twin brothers, Howard Smith and as if in prayer. 'ir u SO 00 Edgar Stone* expense of ear, . . . . . . . . . . * . . . . , . • or to Canada to be nearer the Margaret Lucas, Helen Arthur Smith; and a cousin. Ar12 00 M M Orange Kathkn, Justice «,.,,,.,„,,», At the head of the coffin lav source of raw materials. New Kennecott Copper . . . . 82% 82% Polozsl against P. J. Fortl, Inc., and Cabe, 90% 89% another, negligence; and John J, Shaughnessey, Elizabeth O'Connor, 121 75 William George, assessor . . . . . , . , , , , , , . , , , . . , , , II M thur Wilder, of Woodstock, Vt. the field marshal's baton and hrl- York now imports annually about Lehigh Valley r, oo Ijtna Aldrlch, copying assess, roll },.,,".»».».* 151 TS 11T Liggett and Myers A . 117 Parile against Marshall Cochrane Janet Ingram, Eleanor Durfee, Funeral services will be held at m *t and from Its side hung hia eighty million dollars worth of Mack Truck 7 00 Charles White, conveying assessors *.. r......., 103 103% and others negligence. Katherane Monahan. Gerene Faln ss 53 n her late home at 23 Greenfield ave- jeweled and embroidered sword lumber, on which it pays an an- xMiami Copper Jennie Johnson, registrar . . . . , , . . « . , , , . . , , I , . The case of Jean Gorman, Infant, kenbury, Mae Ostrander, Mr. and 18% 18% nue, on Friday afternoon at 3 belt 7 00 28 00 William Oeorge, truant officer . , . , . , . , 1 . , . . • # . nual toll of about fifty million dol48% 46% against Henry Dlenhart and an- Mrs. L. A. Norton, Jr., Mr. and o'clock. The Rev. Irving G. RouilW » Atop the bier were two massive lars in freight—a tremendous drain Mo Pacific 24 00 Kdmund Murto, justice bill other, negligence, was moved over Mrs. Karl Voskanyan, Mrs. ft, H. Moon Motor* 6% « 25 00 14S 00 lard will officiate, i-nd burial will wreaths of Flanders popples. They Carrie V, Bloss. town el«rk , , . . . , r . . , . . . % . . , , , on our industries. We should have Motor Meter 44 00 20% 20% the term. Settlements today in- Moseman, the Misses Mary Fa^, 78 70 Dr. Thompson, medical services , , . . , . . , . ,4 were laid there just before the be In Greenridge «-emetery. 145 00 cluded the cases -nt Sarah Hickey Nellie Crowley, Alice King. Orace 8 00 Charles Van Avery, classifying records , , , , * . , , 134% 132 doors of St. Columba's were open this lumber at our very doors and National Lead 71 70 10 00 Cher lea Van Avery, ballot clerk . , , , . , . . » * , * , , , 18% 18% against Patrick H. Pender aj I an- Paul, Elizabeth Saxton, Dorothy we should have started years ago>Nevada (Ton.Copper ed to the public and the hands 8 00 214 18 Hollln U Johnson, supervisor 159% 158% other, negligence, and George Stev- Cummings, Elizabeth McCabe. Edthat placed them were those of on a big scale to grow trees on New York Central 10 00 54 00 Joel M. Aldrlch. assessor , .•,.. Lidy Haig who brought them to lands unfitted for agriculture. New N Y N H and H . . . . 65% 64% ens against the Delaware and Hud- ith Mlckle, Agnes Rowland, MilMembers of St. Monica's Circle 264 1* William George, Justice's bill , <........ i t oo great Norfolk and Western 185% 185% son company, negligence. dred Halpin, Frances V. Daly tn<[ 84 00 will hold a card party and social the church In her arms and then York already has made William George, expense of horse as assessor . . 11 00 21 00 remained along witb him for a strides in reforestation, but at the Northern Pacific . . . . 94% 94 T. J. Durkee, Harry Monroe, W. tomorrow at their rooms on Regent .lost M. Aldrlch. use of car for assessor* . . . . . . . 49 00 11 00 present rate of planting it would Ont and West few moments in silent grief. Cfras, Van Avery, inspector of election * 27% 25 Rowland Carr, C. A. Brooks, Ralph street at 3 o'clock. 14 90 40 00 < has. Van Aver>*. assessor's bill be physically impossible to com- Pennsylvania Chamberlain, Frank Woodworth, —Franklin R. Croxion left for 121 71 P H . . 64% 64% 14 00 ALBANY, N. Y., Feb. 1. <*>) — Rex Eddy. l>r, Johnson, med. services rendered » T > . . . . . . . . Rejected plete the task of reforesting all Phillips Pet 41 40% * Syracuse today where he will re121 n Frank Katnan, justice's bill ,..,...,,, 24 00 of our idle waste lands. We must Postum sume his studies in the College of 126% 126% a child marriage bill characterized 00 00 Chaa IT. Edwards, overseer of the poor «8 00 Increase our activities at least Pressed Steel Car com 24% 24% as a part of the Republican welBusiness Adminlstra'lon at Syra24 00 lienj. Denton, Inspector , » . , , , 10 00 cuse University. threefold and this will require P S U 38 37% fare legislation program and en92 60 Addle Snow, poll clerk* 19 99 dorsed by the New York league of more tree nurseries and greatly Rapid Trans securities 36% 36 10 00 France* Abellng, Inspector of election 24 00 Women voters was Introduced in 10 00 incceased appropriations to enable Reading com . . . . . . . . 100% 99 Frances Abellng. delivering returns 10 00 NEW, YORK, Feb. 1 X«—Cotton ths legislature today by Senator 24 00 FrSd Abellng, town halt 21 00 the State to reforest State owned Remington-Rand . 30% 80% Henry D. Williams and Assembly- futures,chjsld easy; 29 to 41 points 10 00 Fralley M.ircellus. inspector of election . . . . . . . . . . . 34 99 •i Walter A. Fullerton was the lands in the Adirondack Park and Repub Iron and Steel 62% 62% N I T ' YORK, Feb. 1 &•*)— 21 00 man Phelps Phelps, Republican.. lower: 1 * idley Mareellus, delivering returns . . . . . . . . . . 10 09 19% 19 M*rch 17.25ffll7.28; May J7.3l|fj BUTTER — Steady; Recelpti speaker at a meeting of Trooy 4, to stimulate greater activity by Sinclair Oil 24 00 Marlon Mareellus, Inspector of elections . . . . . . . 24 00 The measure would fix the mini10 00 9,048, Creamery, higher than extras. the Boy Scouts of America of the counties, municipalities and large Southern Pacific . . . . 120 119 J'red Abellng, supplies a* collector 3 00 mum age for marriage of girls at 17.87: July 17.37^17.89; Oct. 17.1$ 24 S ]>be»" 15. Stone, supt. of highways 43S 00 Paid 436 S» O l-2e®49e; Creamery, extras, (921 Episcopal thurch last evening tak- individual and corporate land own- Southern R y com . . . 143% 148% 16, as It la at present provided for 017.18; Dec, 17.15. 3 00 Saratoga county is one of Studebaker 59% 60% boys, except under certain strict score), 4Sc; Creamery, firsts (88 to j ing as his subject, "The Scout ers. Spdt cotton quiet; Middlings $1171 IS Emphasizing the law, the pioneers In this commendable Tenn Copper 10% 10% regulations. 91 score), 43c@47 l-2c; Packing Laws," jj^l which invites each scout "to do a work and la to be congratulated Texas Co 58% 53% EDINBURG stock, current make, No. 1 j good, turn daily," Mr. Fullerton on Its vision and foresight." No. 2 33 l-"c. Countv of Saratoga: Texas P C and O . . . . 14% 14% •Mm 189 187% "The New York Development Union Pacific BGG«—Steady—Receipts 18,583. ' spoke inapirlngly to the full asWe, the undersigned, the Board of Town Auditors of said town, do Association, Inc., haa Its -principal U S Rubber com . . . . 59% 59% heVeby certify: That the following Is an abstract of the names of all parFresh ga* ?red, extra firsts. 3t l-2c sembly of the scouts. 145% 145 wins who have presented to said Board, accounts to be audited, the amounts ®40c; Firsts, 3 1-2c®39c; Seconds, M rAs a souvenir of his recent trip office and place of business at Wa- U S Steel com nr-rtV • - Fulletton displayed a card, tertown, New York, and Is organclaimed by each of *ald persons, and the amounti finally audited to them, 140% 141 37 l-:c®3Se. Storage. U S Steel pfd anri personally autographed for him by ising Units In all important localrespectively. tO-wit:— 95% 95% 31 1-2C0 3T. . Seconds Westlnghouse Claimed Allowed Claimant Nature of Claim 19% 19% Already eighteen Units Willys Overland poorer, 33c03»c; Nearby hennery Dan Rcaic*. a prominent figure In ities. 115* 25 flSS *:• H. M. Torrey, supervisor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 184 188% many Woolworth Co whites, closely selected fxtrat, 42c the Boy Scout organisation, and have been organized and 10 00 SO 0o ('. L. Brooks, town clerk #43c; Nearby and nearby western told *>« gathering of his InterxEx-dlv. St #9 (Continued on Page eleven) n oo Herbert Besley. justice . . isnnery whites, firsts to average view with Mr. Beard. 30 00 S« 00 Kr»ttk Rock well. Justice Some new games were explained 30 00 30 00 extras, 3Sc©41c; Nearby hennery H. P. Morris, Justice .. Pacific to the *cO'tt» by Mr. Fullerton. t 00 t 00 browns, extras, 42c©43c; Oeorge B., Allen, lustlce . . . . . * * * • < » * < 110 00 Preparations were made for t h e no oo coast whites. extras, 4lcC42c: H. B. Bllithorpe, assessor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The original shareholders of the Common Stock of 110 00 110 00 firsts to extra firsts, 18 l-2c©40 Court of Honor to be held next David Wilbur. asMMer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 110 00 110 00 3-4c. Akeena Products Company will please take notice that the week at th# anniversary meeting. Percy Olmstead, assessor 4$ 09 41 00 George Rockwell, Inspector . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . rights and privileges granted under a resolution duly au31 09 31 00 <arl P. Fraker. Inspector 31 00 3$ 00 thorized and passed by the Board of Directors of the ComWm. B. Fraster. inspector 4» 09 49 O O <:«orge 13 Myers, Inspector ..,.,.,....,.,, pany, January 5, 1928, fgiving the said shareholders of 11 99 IS 00 Sam Darling, poll clerk ,* IS 00 IS #0 record the right to purchase additional shares as per allot* Ftay Rockwell, poll clerk ,........, SO Oft so oe Fred Gilbert, attd. officer ment according to their present holdings at $ 1 1.00 p e r 4*0 00 410 09 *< Distributor for conservative New York Investment banking Myron Bdwurd*. towo aunt ...#... 10 §0 SO 99 •hare, will expire at the close of business on February 6th, house wanU district representatives who are capabt* of buildH. M. Torr*y. supervliior, highway allowance . . Si Of §3 00 ing a local clientele In addition to handling Inquiries received Fred 0, Hay, undertaker, Joseph Bawdlah ». 1928. Therefore, it is deemed advisable for shareholders 1 00 • no (', U Brooks, copy assessment roll from thair territory. 31 i'0 in the above named company to subscribe for or release ,i% so D. O. Orlnn««l, snop rent . . . . . . , . . . . , . , . , . . . , The men who meet our requirements wit.* have the oppor. I IT i tr <!Ka* B. Hougblallng, (own supt, . , . , . said shares without delay otherwise, said allotments and 7 19 tunlty to make real money the first year, and* to build them7 10 Williamson Law Book Co.. supr'a, cash book privileges will be cancelled and the Company will have the 11 19 IS no •elvae a. business assuring a permanent and satisfactory in».'. I* Brooks, T. C. highway allowance . . . . . . . 14 04 14 94 coma thereafter. The Seratoglen, pub'g. highway report . . . . . . right to dispose of such allotments and privileges in it*, 31 99 SI no i', L. Brooks. regk*rar •• .......... Exrperlefiea not necessarily in atlon and experience, felling u l f 10 00 19 99 discretion. Myron Edwards, town supt. expense , perlence of some kind is essentia]. 97 90 17 M r , E. Eddy, {assigned by W. J. DeLeng) . . . . 199 99 ion 00 WrtW us full etalls of education and experience, telling j * ,r Edward grant, H. O. Fewi , By Order of the Board of Directors, 4 50 4 B0 Kmtr Shepard. overseer of poor *. what territory you believe you can handle tiuecehsfuUy. 80 90 60 Of .1 Edward Grant, H, O. Fees , AKEENA PRODUCTS CO., Inc. Address Distributer, P. O. Box 109.. Wall ttrte* Station, New tl«9S OS | 1 I » S 09 Yerk, N, Y. Totals February 1, 1928. Coroner Investigating Accident William McNeary Buys Block Covenant meeting, Baptist in Which J. Arthur Dumont at Church and Clinton church, 7:30; teacher* training Died. Streets. elass, 8:30. Births VETERANWITH "TOUCH OF GAS" FREED IN COURT LOCAL BRIEFS 1 STARS IN THEIR PLACES AS NEWS STORY IS ALTERED > i • i i i FIVE TROY MURDER JURORS VETERANS ATTEND DINNER CHAMBER BOARD HEARS TALK BY STATE ORGANIZER SEEK CLOTHES FOR THREE CHILDREN L D. STARfeUCK CO. ENJOYS BANQUET AND SEE PLAY Government Bonds Grain Market Deaths BODYOFHAIG AT ST. COLUMBA^ CHURCH, LONDOK STATEMENT M M I TOWN ABSTRACTS LOCAL BRIEFS CHILD MARRIAGE BILL Dairy Market FULLERTON TALKS TO SCOUT TROOP Cotton Market NOTICE To the Shareholders of AKEENA PRODUCTS COMPANY, INC. r SEE FRIDAY'S PAPER FOR FULL DETAILS OF OUR ORDERED SOLD SALE District Representatives HARLAN PAGE MUSIC CO. Everything Musical 460 Broadway Untitled Document (To Be Continued) IL Thomas M. Tryniski 309 South 4th Street Fulton New York 13069 www.fultonhistory.com Saratoga Springs, N. Y. H f 1 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mapping Saratoga Springs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1700- Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. URL Old Fulton NY, Newspapaers: <a title="Cramer Obituary 1927, p1" href="http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Saratoga%20Springs%20NY%20Saratogian/Saratoga%20Springs%20NY%20Saratogian%201927/Saratoga%20Springs%20NY%20Saratogian%201927%20-%200602.pdf">p. 1</a> and <a title="Cramer Obituary, 1927, p. 2" href="http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Saratoga%20Springs%20NY%20Saratogian/Saratoga%20Springs%20NY%20Saratogian%201927/Saratoga%20Springs%20NY%20Saratogian%201927%20-%200603.pdf">p 2</a>, February 28, 1927 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Jordana Dym Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 2/7/2015 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Louis H. Cramer, Businessman, Dead Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 28, 1927 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived The Saratogian Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Saratogian Description An account of the resource An obituary of Louis H. Cramer, engineer, surveyor, businessman and philanthropist. He spent most of his adult life in Saratoga Springs, NY, starting as a surveyor and receiver of taxes, and eventually becoming president of the G. F. Harvey Co. He was a benefactor of the Saratoga Hospital, YMCA and Skidmore College. https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/87f8de9ebb94716d34433076650dde92.jpg ffd1c4ba1cbd9ca4114593ddf382f6af https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/f0b1c0efb3d388c4de9c636ed2e54c9e.m4a f78a438f02a247cc4fb6584bee1317ba https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4a9565e692d4a8b317c3cde0a522caea.pdf 10e429d45578497dba7e20e1c4697239 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/ebdf33e59eeaffde26e3d22bf22801eb.pdf a531790415a4517a743fab60f3fa9d4d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Olivia Fidler '19 Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit November 19, 2018 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joanna Zangrando Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:34:47 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joanna Zangrando Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 29, 2016 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource During her years at the College (1976-2007), Joanna Zangrando was a central figure in Skidmore’s American Studies Department and a leading voice for incorporating interdisciplinarity and the study of diverse perspectives into the College curriculum. In this interview she reflects on her experiences helping to create and sustain Skidmore's signature Women’s Studies and Liberal Studies programs. Faculty Gender Equity Feminism Liberal Studies Mary Lynn Reconfiguration student body study abroad Women's Studies https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e09c8c9e5a17fce2b2b4a5743d84386b.png 5f059df335ed5c0f08fcd3ed9080109a https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/18ad9c7c7702d732e925be72caa0c9fe.m4a 805ec005958fae1e659dbca4db796ea7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/80ffce96906a10dced5adbf6af2f08a8.pdf cb172e4b674b31e9e2e4f3e0ee1bc200 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2417b8ef23f3ccb8833084604b2c22ed.pdf 0cbf5152ff698803da0b600fffb94f3b https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/44b850fe3c23f3027a8ba647ccecec3f.m4a 87fdeb2781e84c2fde326bcefd615c28 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/94785925a3b6f1a435d2070b99e719db.pdf 96ccc0fcbd3ec1ef48fbae86d2356e0d https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/239344656eb93a2c5a1f82fcfc6904ff.pdf 0d2da0cec4811662d3c0187c46a5f5aa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Many people who have worked or studied at Skidmore College or lived in Saratoga Springs or the surrounding area carry the memories that help us tell the stories of our communities. This collection offers a glimpse into our past in the voices of those who have shared their stories. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Isabel M.R. Long '21 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandra Welter Location The location of the interview Scribner Library, Skidmore College Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound November 23, 2019 Interview Isabel M.R. Long: So, my name is Isabel Long. Today is November 23rd, 2019. It is approximately 12:05 in the afternoon. I am in library room 128B, here with Sandra Welter. Sandy has been a– is a retired professor from Skidmore. She worked here for many decades in many facets of the college. So, Sandy, could you introduce yourself? Sandra Welter: Great, thank you, Isabel. It's actually a pleasure to be part of this project, and I was very glad to be asked to be involved. I came to Saratoga Springs as a Skidmore wife back in 1971. So, I've been connected to Skidmore for many, many, many years. I was a graduate student at that time, finishing my graduate work, I finished that work. My husband at the time was working here at Skidmore, and I then spent seven years teaching in the high school. I was an English teacher in the high school – junior high school and high school. We had our children. I left public school teaching and then, when my children were young – three, four, five years old – I decided I would like to do some part-time work. The public schools at that time, in the late 70's, were not as modern in their thinking about people working part-time in positions like teaching. So, I was– I approached Skidmore and asked if there were any opportunities. I actually began my teaching and administrative career at the University Without Walls. The University Without Walls is no longer functioning here at Skidmore, but it was a very important aspect– branch of the educational opportunities at Skidmore for non-traditional, adult students who needed to complete their undergraduate degrees. These are men and women who began their college career and were unable to complete it for a number of reasons, or never started college at the traditional moment. At age eighteen. The University Without Walls was a fabulous introduction for me into the Skidmore community. I was an advisor to many of our UWW students. I taught basic English composition as independent studies for many of our students that were off campus, for which many of our UWW students were. And then I worked with a lot of faculty as I administered putting together programs, curricula, for some of our UWW students. So, I got to know a lot of our faculty. One of the aspects, one of the branches of UWW that was vibrant in the mid-70's, all through the 80's, and into the early 90's was the UWW prison program. The prison program was a full academic bachelorette program that we brought to two correctional facilities in upstate New York, about an hour from Skidmore. Every night, at four o'clock, a cadre of twenty – fifteen or so, twenty – Skidmore faculty would finish their work here at Skidmore with the undergraduates, get in their cars and drive up to Comstock, New York, and teach their series of courses to a select group of inmate students who had applied to Skidmore, who had been accepted, and who had received funding – both federal and state funding ¬– to support their college education. So, I started teaching in that program because I could be home with my children during the day, and when my husband got home, I could be off doing my teaching at night. So, it worked out perfectly for me, I taught in the prison program for ten years. I became the director of that program, the last four years of it. I unfortunately– When we lost funding– both federal and state funding – I then, with the help then of the faculty here at Skidmore, we had to close the program down. But those ten year were the most vibrant teaching experience I had ever had, to date, at that point. And I met and worked with so many faculty that were so giving of their time to a population that didn't have access to education at all. And it changed lives radically. I say that with complete confidence. It's not like I imagine that they changed lives, I knew that this program changed individuals lives, and families lives, communities. Everything, these men would go back into their communities a much more viable source of positive influence, both on their families and on their communities. But unfortunately, in 1993 the funding for this program was pulled, both at the federal level and at the state level, and we had to close our program down. we graduated many hundreds of students. I worked in that program even after the program was closed. We volunteered. We had a group of volunteer faculty that would go up for no pay that would do reading groups, study groups, in order to talk with former students. We kept that going as long as we possibly could. At that point I began teaching part-time in the English department and moved to what the college had, at that point, was a master’s program. So, I moved from just part0time work teaching in the English department to full-time administrative work in the master of arts and liberal studies program. That program, again, was like UWW but at the graduate level. I was the administrator. I was the director of that program for some years and advised many graduate students as they put together these interesting interdisciplinary graduate programs. That program also was closed. And, so at that point I began teaching full-time in the English department, and that is what I did until I retired two years ago. And met wonderful students. like you, and students– the first time I had ever deeply embedded myself in the residential program. Many of my experiences at Skidmore were with our non-traditional students, our UWW students, our prison students, our graduate MLAS students, all of whom were off campus. They were not necessarily residential. So, that gave– this last ten year of my career gave me a wonderful experience of embedding myself in the residential community where I was working full-time with freshmen, sophomores, juniors, teaching English 103, English 105. I worked with our international students in a course numbered English 100 which was for international student for whom English as not their first language. So, I worked with them preparing them to begin doing the work that was required of them at Skidmore. So, I've had a really varied experience of teaching at Skidmore, and I one I couldn't possibly replicate any other place. One of the wonderful things about Skidmore is they were, historically were so open to new ideas about how to educate people, who could be educated, who should be educated. And Skidmore as a place that had a very open mind about that, those questions. IL: Fantastic, thank you. You were taking about UWW, so I would like to go back that first [SW: Sure.] before kind of revisiting the different moments in your career. [SW: Sure.] So with UWW, you have set up kind of the who and when for me, can you tell me a bit about the how? SW: Sure. Men and women would apply to the University Without Walls program, they would be reviewed through an admissions committee. They would be interviewed. We would determine what their interests were and whether or not Skidmore had the capacity to fulfil their undergraduate requirements. Historically, if a student came to us and said they wanted to become an electrical engineer, we would probably advise them to go to another institution. That was not a good fit for us. But, for those who were interested in the liberal arts and sciences, those we could accommodate. Once the student was accepted at UWW, he or she got two advisors. One was a major advisor, and one was a UWW office advisor. Someone who oversaw the compilation of the student's curriculum. That was my job. And so each semester, and in some cases not ever the semester, because in some cases the students were doing independent study and might be working on a course for six months rather than a regular, traditional semester-long experience. UWW would pair that student with an appropriate faculty member. So, my job was to talk to the student, listen to his or her desires of a particular course in environmental studies with a focus on land management, or on sustainability, or on water quality. I would then go to the department, like the environmental studies department, and I would talk with the faculty. I would say I have a student who is interested in land management, or water quality, and he or she wants to do an independent study or many if they were local, take a course with you. Would you be available and willing to work with that student? SO my job was to pair students and faculty in their learning. That was a hundred and twenty credits, so that was a lot of hands-on work. It was very labor-intensive process of getting a student through an undergraduate degree at UWW. But, we had an amazingly energetic faculty who were willing to work with our UWW students independently. They often invited local independent UWW students into their classes too so they could hear the lecture right on campus. So, it was a very useful kind of collaboration. That's how it worked. Students worked through their courses at their own pace. All of these UWW students were working men and women. They were not eighteen-year-olds, they were not living on campus, they were not full-time students. So, we had to balance– they had to balance their work life, their family life, and their student life as they proceed to get their undergraduate work done. Not an easy task. And so, for many years in working with these UWW students, I was incredibly impressed with their energy, with their commitment, with their focus because you know how hard it is to get your courses done, imagine if you had a family and a job to balance. And that's what these UWW students were doing. So my job was to facilitate that process and make sure their course work was appropriate, that their degree was balanced, that they had 120 credits, that they had correct distributions, that they had all the components of the major – all the things that your advisor does and your registrar does here on campus, that's what the UWW staff did. IL: That seems very helpful to a broader community interested in pursuing their higher education. SW: Exactly. And UWW was a national forum. Skidmore was not the only campus that ran a UWW program. It was actually a concept that was designed at the federal government level, offering opportunities for adults to go back and finish their degrees. And many campuses across the nation designed UWW program, and Skidmore was one of them. We were one of the earliest ones, and we were one of the latest ones to close. In the meantime, many other colleges across the county also had UWW programs. IL: So then taking the UWW to the prison program, you were talking about faculty going there later in the evenings. So were they doing lectures, or was this again, kind of an independent study type? SW: Yeah. Good question. The prison program looked very much like a residential college program. In other words, the faculty when in, they had a class. They had a class of ten, fifteen, eighteen students. They went in, they sat in the class, they gave lectures, they– the students had their textbooks, they did all the stuff that you would do, that any undergraduate student would do in a class. It was organized by semester, very traditionally. They started and ended in a traditional way. They started, they ended, the students had exams, they received grade. IT was very, very tradition looked because we had the structure. The students were there. It was easier to design that and run that that way than it was for independent adults who were working and living in places all over the country. Our prison program could follow a much more residential pattern, which is what we did. So, the students received transcripts. Their transcripts looked just like our undergraduate residential student's transcript, it's just that it said Comstock on it rather than just plain Skidmore College. It was Skidmore College Comstock Program, which mean that it was offered at the Comstock facilities. IL: Could you help me understand what your personal experience was with that? SW: Well, I had various experiences. Going in– The reason that I got involved in the prison program actually, was that I had a friend who was teaching up there. A colleague, an English professor. And he said to me, one night at home, at my house, we were having a dinner together with a group of friends, and he said "you know, Sandy, I think that you would really like teaching in the prison." And my then-husband looked askance, and said "really," and my friend Bob said "yeah. I think that you would like that. You're the kind of person that I think would be really good. It's not everybody who can do this. Any faculty go up, and they observe, and they say 'Not for me. I don't like the gates; I don't like the feeling worried about being in a prison.'" And he said, "well how do you feel about that?" And I said, well I need to go up and see how I feel. One was a maximum-security prison, and one was a medium security prison, and they were all-male. So of course, there was major concerns. I had major concerns. So, but I said, let me go try. And I walked– I went in with him. I got permission; I had a pass as a guest. I went in with him one evening, and I observed the teachers teaching. I observed the classrooms, I participated in teaching a class with my colleague, and he was right. It was a– it was instantaneous for me. The students were, one, incredibly prepared. Everybody had done their reading, everybody had done their work, everybody came in with hundreds of questions. Some of which were off the wall, but some of which were incredibly insightful. They were like sponges. They were so eager to get this learning and to participate in this exercise. It's like an adventure. This was not their life, imagine, living in a prison. So, at night they could come up and walk into a classroom which had windows and desks. They were with other people, there was a professor there. This as for them lifesaving. And I could tell. I could tell. So, the next semester I taught a class, and I never turned back. I just, I just loved it. I taught composition to mostly freshmen. I then became an advisor, so I was putting together curricula. So, I was making sure the students were developing their majors in certain good way. So, I was working as an advisor, and at the very end I was the director of the program, until we closed. So, lots of great experiences. We had full graduations at the camp– at the prison. We would bring up faculty in their full regalia. Their families could come up, observe their graduation. we would have cake and cookies afterwards. It was as close to normal as we possibly could create given where we were. IL: Wonderful. You wrote a monograph about dealing with behavior. SW: I did. IL: Could you talk about what lead to that, and what you were dealing with? SW: Yeah. One of the– Obviously as a woman, I was always approached by women faculty and men faculty who would say "aren't you afraid? Aren't you threatened? Isn't it dangerous?" Obviously, all appropriate questions. The fact is, I never once – in ten years – never once felt personally threatened. Not once. Now, were there moments? There were maybe, out of ten years, there were maybe three or four moments where there was a scruff. Where there was something that went on– not that had anything to do with me, but was with something in the hallway, or something was going on. But it was immediately shut down, it was immediately– the guards were right there. They're not in your classroom, but they are right in the hall. But personally, I was never approached by a student, by an inmate student, I was never spoken to inappropriately. The students knew that the health and the veracity of this program was on their shoulders. If they screwed up, the prison would close this program down immediately. Skidmore would want to keep coming, but the prison would close it down. So, they knew, if they wanted this program to work, they had to mind their manner. And they did. In fact, they go so wrapped up in their learning there was no time. There was really no time for that. But that being said, a colleague of mine who worked in another prison in the western part of the state, she and I were talking at a conference one time. A prison programs conference that was, happened across the state of New York, and we were talking about, yes, our colleagues were always asking us, you know, what about the behavior? What do you do? And we said, you know, why don't we write a little how-to. Because, yes, of course, there will be situations were a student will overstep, wither knowingly or not knowingly, overstep the line, what do you know. So we decided to put our head together and write a monograph, which we did and we distributed to all of the prison programs across the state for women instructors so that they had a kind of game plan. Or a kind of guidebook. Or to read to decide if they even wanted to do it. And it was great. It was very useful, and the state was very happy that they had it. I gave it to the officers to so that the officers could see what we were saying. And they approved. They said yes, this is appropriate instruction. So we had good cooperation with the prison administration as well. IL: Wonderful. Was there anyone in the program, both with the prison program and with the University Without Walls that was particularly impactful for you personally? SW: Woah. Hundreds, actually. [laughs] Yes, there were some amazing, amazing students. I remember a middle-aged man in the prison program. He was a philosophy major, so he wasn't– he was my advisee. And Michael was– loved to write poetry. And many of the men used to write poetry, and most of it was pretty horrible, but Michael’s was astonishing. It was absolutely publishable. And I can remember when he graduated, he handed me a collection of some of his writings, and I still have them. He's passed away, and he died of AIDS, I believe in the late 80's or early 90's. But he was a very brilliant man and had a really horrible life. But his mind was– just, always remember thinking, anyone looking at this man would think he was just this thug, but all you need to do is just let him speak. Listen to what he had to say, and look at what he was writing about, and you would realize that he had a heart and a mind that was quite beautiful. And so I do remember that. My UWW, not prison students, many students– what I loved about them, they went on to do great things. One on my UWW graduate students is currently directing the economic opportunity program in Saratoga. And she did her degree at Skidmore UWW and was one of my advisees and so she's making a huge difference here in our community here in Saratoga. And that makes me feel great. When I see her name in the paper, and her picture, and the projects that she's doing, I feel like we did the right thing. IL: Well that's wonderful. Another program that I know has been impactful in the community is the Master's of Liberal Studies program. How– could you help me understand your involvement with that, and what that mean to you? SW: Well, we realized that after many years of running UWW, we realized that so many of our graduates kept asking us "we want to do an interdisciplinary master's program. We loved the fact that we could put together our own programs here at UWW. We could create these interdisciplinary, these programs that saw the synergy between different disperate academic inquires. And that by allowing, you know, science and art to talk to each other, we get something bigger and more." And they kept wanting to know where there were graduate programs like that. There weren't very many. There were only, in the country, there was a master's of liberal studies at Gerogetown, there was one in the mid-west, there was maybe one out in Oregon. There weren't very many. And we thought, you know, we should really think about whether or not we the capacity to offer – we being Skidmore. Because of course all these programs need the energy and support of the faculty, and the faculty are [cough] – excuse me – [cough] The faculty have a fulltime job teaching the undergraduate residential students. So, we started small. And I was on the ground floor of this program. Once the prison program closed, I came over. The director of UWW had begun, became the director of MALS, he and his secretary were beginning to put the idea together, and they hired me as the advisor, as the person to help work with the students and put course programs together. It took a while, and we knew that we had to keep it small, cause again, it taxed the energies of the faculty. A graduate student needs more work, needs more attention, needs more intellectual stimulation than an undergraduate. And so we understood that starting a graduate program would mean a real commitment on the faculty's part. So, I worked with the director. We also had a faculty advising committee. We had a group of faculty who came on board and looked at what we could do. It felt like it was workable, so we went forward and designed it pretty much looking like UWW, but instead of 120 credit undergraduate program, it was a thirty credit master’s program. And it was interdisciplinary, so the students had to have at least two disciplines represented, they had to write a thesis, and/or a final program. Some of the performing arts students did photography exhibits, they did creative writing programs, but it was– they had to do a thesis at the end. And those were all to be reviewed by a team of readers. So again, it was very intensive faculty advising, which was on of the reasons why it eventually closed. I mean, it needed so much energy on the part of residential faculty, and the residential faculty was also needing and experiencing more and more with their residential students, their undergraduates, that the college really felt it couldn't sustain it. Which I thought, was probably a reasonable decision on the part of the college. If we are going to do it, we want to do it well, and to the best of everyone's ability. And I think the faculty were feeling very pulled in many directions. IL: Thank you. With this, you were teaching, at the same time a couple classes? SW: Yes. Every semester, while I was doing all my off campus UWW or MALS work, at least one course a semester I would teach in the evening, in the English department. I liked to keep connected– I liked to feel connected to the residential students. IT helped me to make sure that the work I was doing with UWW students and masters students was in line with what the college was doing with its residential students. So, the English department– I as an adjunct faculty member was hired for at least one or two courses in the evening, per semester to teach. And I taught English 103, English 105, and then I worked with the international students. So that was on going. I did that for decades, but it was always quiet, and it was always a smaller part of my Skidmore identity, the most being my work in the non-traditional programs. When both of them closed, UWW and Master, I was not quite ready to retire. I was, I really felt that I had more that I wanted to give, and more, more projects, more opportunities I wanted to offer. I also had a couple of classes that I'd never taught before that were in the back of my head. The most recent being my travel writing course. I'd never taught this, but I's always, always been an avid traveler, I'd always been an avid travel-writing reader, and I kept thinking this is a vehicle that could be a good one to teach freshman comp. The 103, I mean the one-oh-five courses have a topic base, and therefore I kept feeling like there was a real desire and possibility that this could be a great course. So I put together the course, and I proposed it to the English department the last couple of years of my tenure at Skidmore, and that was kind of what I finished my career doing, was teaching my travel-writing courses, which actually were almost another highlight of my career. So, I started with a great highlight in UWW and I ended with a great positive highlight with my travel-writing students. They were, it was a great course. I think they loved it; I learned a lot. We read wonderful writing from travel writers from all over the world, and since retirement I have tried to follow some of their footsteps, and so I have been to many of the places in which we read narratives. So, it's been great. IL: It's fantastic that you were able to kind of move into a second-high point in your career. SW: I did. And it wasn't more of the same. I really wanted to do something different. And I thank the English department very much for allowing me to do that, because they could have said no, keep doing what you are doing, it's fine. And it was fine, but this was a great plus for me, and I was very pleased to do it, and I had terrific students who still stay connected and are always contacting me and letting me know where they are, and where they're going, and were they are traveling, so it's always good. IL: Wonderful. I remember you saying in a previous conversation, maybe a year, maybe two years ago that you taught in Chine briefly. SW: Oh, yes! Yes! I forgot about that, didn't have that on my list! [both laugh] How could I forget?! Yes. When I was working in the master's program, I had done many years at UWW. We were in eh master's program, I was feeling– I was feeling a little stale. I was not doing as much teaching, as much one-on-one teaching. The UWW program offered me lots of really wonderful teaching opportunities. Once that program closed, then the prison program closed, I was doing almost all administration. And I was fine with that, except I really missed the communication and the connection with students. So, I applied for a sabbatical. As an administrator Skidmore does offer, occasionally, an administrative sabbatical. I was not a tenured faculty member, so I wasn't due a sabbatical, but I applied. I gave them a proposal in which I said I would like to teach for a year in China, at the university Skidmore had a relationship with. And my proposal was approved, I was given a nine months sabbatical, and I went to China. [Laughs] I took off. I did not speak Chinese; I did not need to speak Chinese. My students were all English majors at a teaching university in Shandong province, which is provincial. It is not near a big city; it is not near Beijing or Shanghai. It was in one of the oldest– it was one of the oldest universities in China, and one of the oldest communities. It was in the hometown of Confucius. It was were Confucius was born and were his family and he is buried. And around this very old community, they built a university, and it was a teaching university. So off I went. I left for a year. I lived at this university. I had an apartment on the campus. I taught six courses a semester with thirty-five or forty students in a class, so I taught three hundred students in the course of a year. And I taught composition. So, I was teaching – and they were – their reading English was actually quite good. They understood their reading quite well. Their spoken English was not very good because they had no access to native English speakers. The people who taught them oral English were Chinese teachers. Lovely, very lovely people, but their English was not very clear, and so the students' English was not very clear. So, I taught– I did a lot of informal, come to my apartment, let's practice our English. So, at night, I would teach all day, and then at night I would have twenty-five or thirty students for tea, and we would just talk, and practice our English. So, and then I did that for a year. But then I did composition. The year that I was there our students published a literary magazine. I was very proud of that. The only time they've ever done that. We out it together in the Spring semester. We had an editorial board, we had submissions. The students read the submissions, they made selections, they did editing, they did layout, they did artwork, and we put together a literary magazine for the whole junior class. The junior year was when they did their composition writing in their curriculum. So, I was very proud of that. I had it published, and every student got a copy, which I signed before I left. It was great. It was a good experience, a really good experience, and I have still stayed in contact with many of those students who are now middle-aged at this point. Cause I was there in 2001, 2002, so many of them are adults either working in teaching or working in cooperate situations where they are using their English as translation. IL: That sounds really, really formative experience. SW: Yeah. Well it also was– I think it was one of the impetuous for me wanting to do the travel-writing course. When I got back, I thought, there's so much wonderful writing that goes around travel, and new experiences that I really felt– that began to make more interest. And the reason I ended up going – let me share this with you – the reason I really wanted to go to China was that Skidmore was accepting many more international students at that point in the late-90s, early-2000s. And they were in my classes. They were in my one-oh-three classes, or my English one hundred classes, and I was so impressed with their work ethic, and their diligence, and how hard it was for them to work in an environment where this was completely not in their native language. And I thought, I would really like to know more about the Chinese educational system because they are producing these really interesting, smart, thoughtful, fun students that are coming to Skidmore. So that's really what got me started. And when I found out we had a relationship with a university in China that we could send faculty there to teach, I jumped on that opportunity. So Skidmore, the undergraduates were actually my stimulus for me going to China. IL: That's fantastic that the courses here fed nicely in, and then the experience in China fed into your next [SW: Right, exactly.] set of courses. So in working with these international students in EN 100 and EN 103, I know you taught EN one-oh-three for, what, twenty-two years? SW: Right. A really long time. [both laugh] IL: Just a bit. SW: Yeah. IL: [both laugh] Could you talk about, sort of, what that meant to you as an adjunct professor? SW: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's unusual, a little unusual for a faculty member to teach a course for that long. There are many more opportunities, with tenured faculty, for them to do more courses. The English department has to provide, kind of, nuts and bolts necessary writing instruction for every student that comes here. It's our responsibility. Obviously, as you know, every student is required to be a competent writer from the get-go. They walk on this campus and every faculty member expects them to be able to be a thoughtful, competent writer. That is true for most of our students, but not all of our students. And certainly, our international students have a much steeper learning curve. And so, I– I was always a teacher, I am a teacher who likes to work with students who are challenged. I find that absolutely so stimulating. Whether they are adult students coming back and need to work around family, or whether they are prison students who have to deal with their life in prison, as well as their education, or international students who have to deal with a new language, or students, regular residential students who are coming out a high school experience that was maybe not as absolutely basically fulfilling as it could have been. And so, they are here at Skidmore because they are smart. My students are really smart. They are so capable, but their skill level, the stuff that they need to know, the nuts and bolts – the kind of tools that they needed – they may not have them all in their toolbox yet. My job as a 103 teacher was to give them the tools that they may or may not have gotten in high school. And, for me, every student that walked into my class – even though I am teaching the same course – every student who walked in was an individual challenge. And for me that was so stimulating because I had to figure out a way to help each one of these students, in whatever way I could, to get him or her to the place where they could be fully successful at Skidmore. So, I loved that. I loved the idea that helping a student– especially writing. Writing is not a discipline that has right answers the way maybe biology does. Either this is this enzyme, or it’s that enzyme. Or history: it's either this year or that year. You have to know the facts. In writing there's a path to getting better at this skill, but that path is not a single path. Everybody chooses the path that works best for them. My job was to help each student find his or her path to becoming a competent writer. And a confident writer. So many times, my students were really fine writers, but they lacked the confidence. They kept saying, well I'm not a good writer, I'm not a good writer. I said, how do you know that? Somebody told me. I said, well, let's forget that. We're not going to worry about that voice, we're going to start a new voice which is you are a competent writer, and you can get better, and our job is to get you there. And that was how I approached English 103 for twenty years. Or more. IL: This is a wonderful philosophy. Do you feel like you have a set– a guiding philosophies or principles that you've followed? Wanting to help people who have challenging perspectives and challenges that they are overcoming. SW: Right, right. I don't know if I– other than the fact that my first– my basic point is that every student can do it. You can do this. This is not impossible for you. It may feel impossible and it may take twice as long than someone else, but you can become a better writer. Writing is not– Writing is a process, it's not a product, and if you think about that then you are going in the right direction. Students always say look at this piece of writing. My writing is not as good as this piece of writing. That's a product. I'm not interested in the product. How did that writer get to that product? That's what we all need to understand. So, if I can help students realize that the best writers edited, and edited, and rewrote, and rewrote, and rewrote, if I can have students figure that out and understand that their writing can always get better, then I've done my job. Because then the student realizes they're in control. They have the capacity to become a better thinker, a better writer, a better reader. All those three things go together. So, that would be my philosophy, that it's a process not a product. Don't look at the product. IL: That's a wonderful philosophy, and thinking about then, the process, you've been– or were at – Skidmore while technology was changing. SW: Right. IL: That effects many– SW: Huge! Yes, yeah, great question. Yeah, I'm thinking back over my early years. In fact, I always used to tell my students about using a typewriter, and of course they would look at me like I was crazy. They would– I would tell them about the card catalog in the library, where you would have to go an actually look at a piece of three-by-five card to find the book and go in the stacks, and that there was no electronic databases at all, these kinds of things. But, yes. And writing has been incredibly impacted by all the technology. Research, for example, was a– used to be a big frustration for me. I always wanted the students to get into the library to understand the notion of searching out information using, what I considered the old way of thinking about knowledge acquisition. The students taught me so much more because they are so much more facile with the electronic databases, with accessing information. My job for them was to always help them sort out what was the value of the information. It's not quantity, it's quality, and so my shift– I had to shift my focus from here's how you get information – research, etc. – to how do we know this information is valuable, it's correct, it's been reviewed. That's critical nowadays because there's too much information out there and it make students crazy. They grab the first ten things they find, eight of which are bogus. They have to figure out, let's make sure they understand how to validate the data they are gathering and the information that they're reviewing, and to realized that more so now than ever before, the author has to be validated. What is the author's point of view? Who is the author? Is there an agenda behind the author's point of view? Are we getting a balanced approach to the information? So, technology has made students, faculty lives, both more helpful, more easier, but also there are much more responsibility that come along with this huge availability of information that we must be responsible for figuring out what's valid and what isn't. IL: That's a great– That's really interesting for me to hear about the shift in research, because that is such a big part of student life now. SW: Exactly. I mean, huge, huge amounts. Students do their research in their dorm rooms. That's not the way I did any of my research as an undergraduate or as a graduate student. Or as a teacher! Even as a professor I would be in the library, I still an in the library. It feels right to me to be in the library, but I'm becoming a relic. And students who are– the young faculty who are coming on board, they do their research just like our undergraduates do now. So it's becoming a little more seamless. We older folks are fading away [laughs] and moving into– we understand that times are changing. IL: So we're wrapping up the interview here. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you would like to cover? SW: No. I'm glad you asked about China because I totally forget about my China experience which was amazing. As I said at the beginning, I think that my profession trajectory is so uniquely a part of the Skidmore philosophy. I don't know of another institution that would have allowed me, encouraged me, championed me, to do the kinds of things I have done at Skidmore over thirty-three years. It's a testament to Skidmore's creative thought matters slogan that they allow an individual like me, a faculty like me, to do, to think, to work with students, to incorporate, to invite different populations of students into the Skidmore learning experience. And I can't thank the college enough for that. It's been a terrific experience for me. My children, who did not go to Skidmore, they think very, very warmly of this place, and understand how much it's meant to me and it has affected them too as they've watched me do my teaching the way I have. So, I thank Skidmore a great deal for that opportunity. IL: wonderful. So thank you very much Sandy. SW: You're welcome, you're welcome, Isabel. This has been a great pleasure, and good luck on the project. IL: Thank you very much. February 5, 2020 Interview Isabel M.R. Long: My name is Isabel Long. Today is February 5th, 2020 and I'm here with Sandra Walter in library 126 – sorry, 128C. We're on Skidmore College campus. We are here to do interview two of two in our series for the Saratoga Skidmore memory project. So just to give a brief overview of what we previously covered, we talked about the prison program that ran at Saratoga, in– with the local prison for a while, and we talked about graduate programs which Sandy was head for a while. We talked about her time teaching EN103, and traveling to China and working in China, and then teaching her travel writing class. Sandy Welter: All good. [Both laugh.] All right. Thanks for reminding me. IL: You're welcome. It was a fabulous conversation. SW: It was, I enjoyed it very much. IL: I'm glad, I did too. So, I have just a couple things to follow up with [SW: Sure.] that I'd love some clarification. So, one of the things you mentioned very briefly right at the end of our conversation was your sons' connection with Skidmore. You mentioned they felt very connected to college even though we did not attend here. SW: Right. IL: Could you elaborate on their connections with Skidmore? SW: Well, as you know, I live right in Saratoga Springs. They were born and raised here in Saratoga. And in the early days of Skidmore, both my husband, at that time, and I were affiliated with Skidmore, he in the counseling center and me– I was, at that time, teaching in the public schools, but was involved with bringing my kids to campus for various projects and activities that happened here on campus. It was a much smaller community back then than it is now, and so the kids, my children, felt very much as though Skidmore was a sort of home away from home. When I started teaching here full time, they, um, they use my office as a great after school drop off place, sometimes, to stop in on their way off to a soccer game, or practice, or a bike ride with some friends. And so, while they did not necessarily participate, um, educationally in the activities, they did- they did fully appreciate the community that Skidmore offered all of them, the faculty and staff that lived- that lived and worked here. They used the library regularly, they loved to the library, and, uh, you know, they had many friends whose parents were also involved at Skidmore, and so it was a sort of a mini community. So that's sort of what I meant, was I think Skidmore was an extension of– they felt as comfortable here on the Skidmore campus as I would downtown, or at the high school, or the other places that they were active in. IL: Wonderful, thank you. One of the things you mentioned is that your former husband worked at Skidmore. SW: He did. Yep. IL: Yeah, so, from my understanding from our last review you joined the working body of the Skidmore community later on. SW: Right, exactly. I came to Skidmore as a new bride, actually. My husband, at the time, he and I got married right after– I got married right out of college, actually. He got the first– the job as the first director of counseling center here at Skidmore. Skidmore didn't have a counseling center in 1971. They were about– they had just started to accept men. There was a clear need for a network for support for students. The student body was moving to the new campus. When I first came in 1971, my husband's office was in downtown, in the old– on the old campus. Many of the activities of course we're still here at the new– I called the new campus, the campus. And, so, I came, as a new bride. My husband was working at Skidmore and I was in graduate school. I was doing my graduate work at SUNI Albany. So, I did my graduate work and finished. After finishing my graduate work, I got a job teaching in the Saratoga Springs high school, and taught there, and was tenured there for the next six– five or six years. At that point I had two small children and did not go back to teach full-time. And by the mid 80s, the early 80s my children were two and five. They were starting to go off to school or school in kindergarten, and I was anxious to get back to the workforce. I had many friends here at Skidmore, through my husband, and I was invited to come and work at UWW, and then in the English Department. So, it was an interestingly slow transition to Skidmore for me. I started actually as a faculty wife, as an employee's wife, but then came on as a– as a full-time employee and faculty member. IL: Thank you for elaborating. SW: Sure. IL: There's several pieces of your comments I really want to touch on. SW: Yeah. IL: We're going to go back to a couple of the them. SW: Sure. IL: But first that I think is relevant– kind of in chronological order, working backwards, is the transition to a co-educational school for Skidmore. SW: Right. IL: You were here right as that was happening. [SW: Yeah, yes.] Was there a culture shift that was going on? SW: Yeah. IL: Could you help me understand what the campus atmosphere was like? SW: Yeah, yeah. It was– it was a huge culture shift. I came from my undergraduate school, Elmira College in western part of New York State, went through exactly the same transition when I was an undergraduate student. So when I started at Elmira it was in all women's college, when I graduated it was a co-educational institution, so in four years at had transition to a co-educational institution. When I got here to Skidmore, right after I had graduated from my undergraduate school, it was also in that exact same transition. So, both Elmira and Skidmore were probably transitioning to a co-educational institution at exactly the same time. And there was a huge cultural shift. I guess the funniest story that I can share with you which I think encapsulates exactly the problem– actually two small stories. The first was, I can always remember my husband coming home and saying, 'Well the men are in the counseling center all the time.' I said, 'Oh dear are they having a terrible time?' He said 'No, actually the problems are fairly soluble. And I said, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'I mean are they are they having major emotional problems?' He said 'No, no.' He said, 'The first problem is that there's no options except ballet in terms of physical education for them, and they were having difficulties explaining to the phys-ed department that they needed more options. And the second was that they couldn't get enough food. That the cafeteria was not serving them large enough portions. That they kept going back, and back, and back and that the cafeteria ladies were used to feeding women, you know young women, and not used to feeding eighteen-year-old boys.' So, he said, 'Once we get those two things straightened out, I think that the mental health of the entire community will probably be a whole lot better.' So that gives you a sense of sort, the small problems that could go in co-education, you know, provided or presented to the college. Obviously, dormitories and space, and those kinds of things. But really, they needed to think about their curriculum, they needed to think about their support services, and I think they've done a great job of doing that over the years. IL: Thank you. So, you mentioned, Elmira going co-ed, and being at Elmira. Could you help me understand what your time at Elmira was like? SW: Sure! I was– I came from a fairly– a very blue-collar working-class community in southern Connecticut. Going– I was the first member of my whole family to go to college. And so, going off to college for me was huge, and the idea in the early 1960s, for me to go off to college, to really have a completely different experience would be to go to a girl school, for me. I don't know why that I was convinced that that was an important thing, but somehow, I was convinced that that was a good thing to do. And so, I started applying applied to many of the women's institutions at the time, and I got into a lot of them. I selected Elmira not because it was the best. Because in retrospect, probably in terms of just in terms of academic caliber, it probably wasn't the strongest of the ones that I had gotten accepted into, but it was the one that was the farthest away from home. And so, I chose that. Because I what I needed to do at that moment, was to prove to myself that I could be a college student and live in an environment completely different than when I was used to. And so, I went to Elmira. It actually was a wonderful, wonderful choice for me. I met some, some fantastic faculty who have– who remained supportive of me for my entire career, and beyond. I met some lovely, lovely women who have remained friends my whole life, in fact just had a reunion with a couple of them, over 50 years of reunion with a bunch of them recently. I went junior year abroad, and so I went to the University of Leicester in England for an entire year, which was an amazing experience for me, and was– and it probably fed my latent desire to all– to travel, to see the world, which I have continued to feed throughout my entire life. So, Elmira was a wonderful experience for me. It prepared me well for graduate school. I went to SUNI Albany and got my degree there, and felt well prepared, and was very happy to be trained in the early 70s to be a teacher, and so I felt as though I had gotten a very good education, even though I think, the reasons I ended up– I initially went there were probably not the best. [Chuckles.] IL: You ended up being there, and then a transitional moment for Elmira. SW: Yeah, yeah it was– of course, anywhere you were. If you were in college in the late 1960s, you were in the midst of a huge revolution, cultural revolution in terms of, of identity and educational opportunities, and politics, and countercultural definitions. This was all so embedded in a college experience at the time. I mean, I started college in 1967, I was at Woodstock in 1969. I was in– I was at the University of Leicester in 1969 and '70, and then I graduated in 1971. So, it was right in the in the heat of all of the activities that were going on campuses across the country so, you couldn't avoid, it is great. IL: If you had to pick kind of a definitive moment of your college experience, what would it be? SW: Well, I think it was the opportunity to go abroad. That was– I mean Elmira is this small little sleeping community in western upstate New York. It doesn't necessarily provide the kinds of– even the simulations that Saratoga does. Saratoga Springs is a culturally rich environment beautiful, beautiful geography. Elmira is not that. Didn't have that kind of opportunity, both visually, geographically, and culturally. So, for me to go abroad and to study, and to be there for a year, was life changing for me. And that– I worked with some fantastic faculty at the university. I met several of them later on, after I finish my degree and have– and stayed in touch with many of them. Most of them are gone now, by now. IL: Could you help me understand the wonderful experience of being at Leicester? SW: Yeah, yup. It was– well it's– it's not– it's a red brick university, that's one of the quality characteristics. It's one of the universities that grew out of the push to enlarge the university system in Britain after the Second World War. It was well, well known for its English literature faculty. Many of the universities of Britain had a particular strength, and so if you were interested in X, Y, or Z you would think to look at, to go to those institutions. Leicester had a very strong English literature and culture department, and I, I was lucky enough to get accepted into that. And so, that to me was life changing. Their educational system, which is much different than United States, in which we took classes once a week, didn't have exams except at the end of the year, met in one on one tutorials with the faculty every week, so you were always had to be prepared, you always had to be ready to be able to speak what you had in your mind well face to face with a full professor, and then, and then prepare for an exam that you would have only at the end of the year. So, it was a very difficult, very different way of learning than I was used to here in the United States. And that taught me a lot about pedagogy, which I put to work when I came here to work at Skidmore. IL: Fantastic. If you could only pick a couple individuals who defined your time at Leicester, who would they be and why? SW: I think that the uh– I think that the Shakespeare professor was particularly wonderful. And I’m not going to remember his name, sorry. [IL: No worries.] I could've– I also took, I took an American history course. Because I was intrigued at the time to see how, how the British taught American history, and that professor also was absolutely fabulous. And showed me a way of looking at history in general, and history of my own country in relationship to Britain that I never had had been given before. So that was exceptionally fine. The third component– the third really important part of my experience at Leicester had really nothing much to do with my faculty as much as it had to do with two groups of students. One was a group of international students that we formed. There were six or seven of us. Two of us from United States, one from Australia, three from Germany, two from Japan, etc. So, we had this group of international students who were international students at Leicester at the time, all studying either in the foreign languages department, or in the history departments. And so, we ended up taking classes with each other and gathered in very informal friendship group throughout the year, because we were the– we were the foreigners, we were the outsiders. And it was– it's fairly small university and so they weren't a lot of us. We've stayed in contact with each other over almost– over almost 50 years now, so I just, in fact, two days ago spoke with the German student who friend of mine, and he's on his way to Japan to meet with Hiroshi, one of our other students. It has been over 50 years. So that group of students has were really influential and showing me how the rest of the world thought. How they think. How do other people in other parts of the world think. And again, that really informs that well how I teach. The other group of students that helped me a huge amount where the women in my dormitory. We lived in a hall, called College Hall, and we were– we ate together. It was part of the system. We would be at least once or twice a week we would eat together and have high tea together. We studied together, often. And again, we have stayed in close contact with each other over all these years. A group of us just had a reunion last year. And went I went back to Britain and saw them for the first time in almost 50 years. And we had a lovely time. Picked up right where we left off. [Chuckles.] IL: That's fantastic. SW: So those kinds of experience, both friend friendships, were as much– as much a influencing force on who I am as a, as a teacher and as a, as a person as my faculty were, and they were also quite wonderful. So. IL: Thank you for sharing. SW: Yep, sure. IL: In your time last year, did you travel elsewhere, were you mostly based there? SW: I did travel. I came at the end of August. Our term started in September. We studied until December, and then they have a big long break. During that break, I traveled a great deal. I visited German students in Germany, I went to Austria and Switzerland, and did some skiing and– I did a lot of traveling. And then, in the– after the break in May, that was after my exams were over, many of the foreign students went home. I had– I, luckily, had saved enough money and then I could actually stay for another couple of months. So, I stayed through August. So, I was gone almost twelve months, and during that time I traveled to Spain, and Italy, France and did more of the southern European traveling, and again met up with many of the students and friends that I had met during the year. I did, I did hike in April. I hiked the Lake District with a with one of my college friends, in Britain. I went to Edinburgh; I went to Glasgow I went to Wales. I did see a great deal of Britain, because it was easy. It's easy to do so because of the train, trains, and it was inexpensive if I had a student pass, I could get anywhere, and I backpacked the whole time. So, I stayed in hostels and it was really inexpensive. I could, I could get around easily under $5 a day. So. I was able to do that as well. IL: With being on campus and involved in student culture in Britain, you define some of the Elmira culture as having the counterculture movement super characteristic [SW: Right.] of the late 60s, early 70s. Was that something that [SW: No.] was distinct? SW: No, yeah. It wasn't– we did not see that as much. I did not see that, at least I don't remember. It's a long time ago. [Chuckles.] I don't remember that at all. And it was funny because, because I was gone in 1969, 1970, I kind of unplugged from the height of the activities that were going on in my country at the time, and I didn't– I was gone a full year from August to August, and that's, that was a long time. That's a lot of– a lot of events occurred during that year that I was not in the in, you know, in my country, to experience. In Britain, it was much less– I was, I was very involved in my local life, and did not necessarily, feel a sense of that counterculture movement at all. IL: So, you went to Woodstock, left for Britain– SW: I did. IL: Was away for a year, and then came back. SW: Exactly, exactly! In fact, I got– I went to Woodstock, and two and half weeks later I left for Britain. And when I got there, everybody at the university said, 'did you go to Woodstock?' And I said, 'I, I did.' And they could not believe it. They said, 'no.' I said 'yeah. I was there.' And I was. [Both laugh.] I was. So, that was– I kind of became sort of instant celebrity for a few weeks. [Laughs.] And then classes start, and then everyone was busy. IL: Was it like a story you told them to, kind of, share what that experience, since they were so interested? SW: Well, well yeah, they asked because it had just happened. I mean, literally just happened, and here's two Americans arriving on their university not, you know, two-and-a-half or three or three weeks after they watched all this on their, on their telly. And here we are, and my friend Jackie and I, Jackie was not at Woodstock, and I arrive at Leicester. And, you know, that's what they wanted to know. Well, what was it like? And so, all I can remember telling them was it was very muddy, 'cause it rained the entire time. I said it was very muddy, and there were lots and lots of people, and it was the most peaceful group of half, quarter million people I've ever seen in my life. Ever. So, you know, it was– of course the music was fabulous. And they wanted to hear did you here so-and-so, and did you hear so-and-so? And I– yep, yep, yep. IL: So, in learning about their culture, they also very– SW: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. IL: So then, when you got back to the US– SW: Yeah. IL: How had your perspective on Elmira, for example, or your life in the US changed? SW: Yeah, and it had changed a great deal. Really good question. You know, I– I realized how–I mean there was a part of me that realized, because I wanted– 'cause I decided to go as far away from home as I could, that staying at home was small. That there was something– it was loving, and wonderful, and I loved my hometown, and my family but there was something about it that was a little stifling for me. And– because nobody ever left. It was a kind of place where everybody was happy being right where they were, and that southern Connecticut was just fine. Just a fine place to be born, and raised, and work, and die. And I'm thinking, no, no I don't think so. Not for me. And so by going off to Elmira and then going to England, that way– it was like, it was like I lit a fire, and that's, as you can imagine, as you know as one of my former travel writing students, you know that I continue to constantly desire to see more and more of the world. This interview had to be postponed because I was in Africa just until a couple of weeks ago. So, I have continued to be just enthralled with the variety and the complexity and the beauty of this world. And that's certainly what Elmira and my experience at Leicester started way back when I didn't know, I mean, didn't know a thing. I was so naive, and so young and so inexperienced that I give– I gotta give myself credit for trying as much as I did even back then, 'cause I think I didn't know what I was doing at all but, it will worked out fine. IL: I'm glad. SW: Yep. IL: Could you kind of describe sort of an average day in your hometown? SW: Ah! An average day my hometown. Well, my hometown was a working class, pretty much exclusively– not exclusively. About 80% Italian, first generation Italian Roman Catholic blue-collar community. Most of the men went off to New Haven and worked as tradesmen or as factory workers. Almost– most of the moms stayed home and took care of their families. I lived in a small post-World War Two little house in a little development where all the houses looked about the same. I walked to school. I walked home for lunch. I walked to my high school. It was– it had a very old downtown center, which of course, because it's Connecticut, it had some pieces of early pre-revolutionary notes– old stone church and an old green and area. But, and there was an old neighborhood. But the large portion of my day was spent in these kind of post-World War Two developments of young families. There were in every house in my neighborhood there was two to four children. And when you– when we walked to school, the whole street was filled with kids. When you walked home, it filled with children. You went home, you put your play clothes on, and you went outside. And you were in the neighborhood playing with friends until your mom called you for dinner, and dinner, homework, and in bed, and then off to school again. My parents owned a little tiny cottage on the shores of Long Island Sound in the town next to where I was, where I grew up, called Branford, and in the summers we would go there. So, I would unplug from this kind of intense, you know, kind of dense family community, kid-oriented, to a much more relaxed, out– get more or less about doors community, where I stayed all summer, with a whole group of families and friends that were not part of the group of neighbors that I grew up with. But I stayed– we stayed in that community. My sister and I grew up in East Haven, we both went to East Haven high school, graduated. My sister actually bought my parents' house when they graduated, and so she stayed there her whole life. She stayed there her life. She never, again, she never left. And that's was not at all atypical. She was friends with all of her high school friends. I was not. I mean, I didn't see my high school friends much 'cause I never– never was home again. And we had different– we had different interests. They were happy to be where they were, and I was not. You know, I wanted to see more. But, I mean, it was it was a lovely childhood. It was lots of fun, and lots of activities. I remember learning to roller-skate on the streets, and interesting things that people can't even imagine. That you rake your leaves. All the families would rake their leaves into the– into the edge of the street, and then you'd burn them. Which of course, God forbid you can't– but never do that now, and that you'd come home, and you'd play in the leaves, and they'd be these little fires in these little embers, and it would get dark and you can remember seeing the embers along the side of the road, and you come in and you smell like, like leaf smoke. These are, you know, these wonderful memories that kids don't have anymore. It's just not a– it's a different life, it's a different environment. But kids have other wonderful things to think about now too, right, so. IL: Do you– is there, kind of, one memorable meal from your childhood you could tell me about? SW: Well, I’m a– I'm from– my grandparents on my mother's side were both Swedish. They were first– they were born in Sweden, came as younger, young people, both my grandfather and my grandmother. My grandmother was a wonderful cook. I can always remember my grandmother making a roast– and they didn't have very much. They were– they had large family, not very much money, and we would go over to my grandparents' house on Sundays sometime, or certainly on a holiday. So, if it was a holiday like, I don't know, Easter, or Christmas, or something, she would make a roast pork. Some kind of a piece of large piece of meat. And there'd be hundreds of grandchildren, seems to me, there wasn't hundreds, but there was a lot of grandchildren, lots of children around. And she would be cooking and baking, and there'd be potatoes and, and she would make– always have– so this, this big piece of meat would come out and I will be sitting in my grandfather would cut it up, he was a carpenter. He built a lot of Yale University in his, in his active years as a carpenter. So, he would take the trolley from Branford, his hometown, to New Haven, work on the buildings at Yale, and then come home again. So, he always remembered– I remember as a child him telling me– we'd take the bus into New Haven, and he'd say, 'you see that? I built that, I built that archer, or I–’ ‘cause he built all the woodwork, he did all the woodwork. Anyway, so, we were at this, at this– he was cutting up the meat, and everybody got a piece of this meat, and then we had roast potatoes and vegetables, etc. And I looked at my grandmother's plate, and always, this was always the case, on my grandmother's plate were all the bones. Just the bones. And I said, 'Grandma, you don't have any meat.' She said, 'Oh, I don't want any of the meat.' She said, 'This is the best part.' And she would pick up and spend the whole meal just nibbling, and sucking, and chewing off all of the good parts of the bones. Now, I can– you know, as a child, I kept thinking, well she just doesn't want to give– she wants to make sure that everybody get some meat, and so she's giving it all to all the children, and she's just being generous. But I think she was right. I actually think she was right, that probably that was really delicious, all of the good roasted bones. The other, other thing that I always remember– my grandmother was really the center of my meal remembrance. My mother was not a very good cook at all, and once I got to be a teenager, I ended up doing a lot of the cooking in my house 'cause my mother really was not, did not like to cook. So many, many of my memorable meals were at my grandmother's. Whenever you walked into my grandmother's house day or night, 8:00 o'clock in the morning, 10:00 o'clock at night, there was always a big pot of coffee perking on her stove. Didn't matter what time it was, it was always hot. and just perking. Hear that little blurp, blurp, and the whole house smelled of coffee. And the other thing you'd always smell is Swedish coffee cakes. She would bake Swedish coffee cakes every morning, and you could smell the cardamom, and the other in– clove, which you put in the coffee cakes, and so there was always, always coffee and always coffee cake in her house, whenever you walked in the house it didn't matter. And you, and you– and Grandma would always let us, the grandchildren, even as little as we were, taste a little sip of coffee, we could taste some. So that was always exciting. IL: Sounds really lovely to have that– to know that you could go and get some coffee. SW: Yes. Grandma was– she always had coffee going, and there was always a coffee cake that she had just taken out of the oven. She was a great cook, and she taught me how to cook. She was the one that taught me how to cook. I remember as I was in college, I went and visited her, and knew or realize that she was getting very old, and so I sat down and asked her to give me her recipes, some of her recipes. She of course, she never measured anything. And I said, 'Well Grandma, show me how you make the rice pudding.' She'd say, 'okay,' and then she would sit there, and she would say, 'Well first you take some rice.' And I said, 'Well, how much rice?' 'You know, enough.' [Laughing] And I say, 'This isn't going to work.' I said, 'I'll tell you what, you make the rice pudding, and let me watch you, and then I'll be able to figure it out.' So as she was making it, I would make her– I would ask her to stop, just before she would pour the milk in, or pour the rice in, or pour the seasoning in, and measure it. I would measure it because she didn't– it would be this is how much it is, whatever it was. I said, 'Okay,' and so I would measure it and then write it all down. I had to cut some of the recipes still. IL: Do you have a favorite recipe you made? SW: I like her rice pudding. That's what we– she always made the best rice pudding. And it's– again, that they were very poor, and so they used everything up. So rice, if you made rice, you always made rice pudding with it. And she would make oatmeal, oatmeal cookies because she'd make oatmeal or porridge for the, all the kids and then whatever was left she would make something. She would make delicious dumplings. She was a good dumpling maker. So these are some of the things I remember. Easy, inexpensive meals. IL: It– food's always a really wonderful, I think, part of family life generally. SW: Yes, yeah. IL: Is there kind of a, memorable meal you've had with your kids since then? SW: My own kids. Well, you know, we– yeah. I, I like to cook. I'm, I very much like to cook. And because I had two sons, and no daughters, I just taught them how to cook this, because why not? And they were interested. So, and they are now in their 40s, and so. One of the things I had– one of my sons, when he was seven, after having done a research paper at elementary school or kindergarten about animals, you know, and realizing that people ate animals, he decided he was going to be a vegetarian, at age eight, or so. And I said, 'That's fine, you know, that's fine. If that's what you want, and then we'll do.' Then the other son, he was like, you know, 'No I’m not going to do that.' So, I was making– I tried to make a vegetarian option for, for my– for Josh, the younger one. The problem was of course, is he didn't like vegetables. [IL laughs.] So, I said, 'Sweetie, if you're going to be a vegetarian you have to eat vegetables, and you have to figure out how to get some protein.' So, he said, 'Well, I like pasta.' So, I mean– and he liked peanut butter. So, there were many years, I think, in his life where he subsisted on pasta with tomato sauce, which had some vegetables, and peanut butter sandwiches. He's now, you know, six-two, and you know, is perfectly well, well-endowed in terms of a healthy strong man, and his– I think one of our favorite meals was we used to make homemade pasta. And with a with a roller, with a machine hand-cranked pasta rolling machine, and he was, got very good at– now he has twin seven-year-olds, little girls, and he, every month, every Sunday they make homemade pasta together. So, it's carried on several, you know, several generations now, homemade pasta which is one of the twins' favorite meals. And pizza, lots of pizza. They love pizza, which of course Josh makes from scratch, so. So, that kind of shaped our, our meals a lot. IL: Meals are always prepared in kitchens. That's always something– I found now, being in college that that's very important [SW: Yeah.] space sometimes. So, with your home, would you define the kitchen– how, how would you define your kitchen? SW: Yeah, it's the center of our house. And still is, even without the kids there, still the center of our house. When I entertain, we all end up in the kitchen, for some reason, because I have a big kitchen, I have a cooking and working kitchen, 'cause I like to cook, and I liked other people to be in my kitchen with me when I'm working and cooking. My kitchen is also an open space into a family room. So, there's a, a couch and a TV, and bookcases, and things to read and do as well as the kitchen area which is kitchen-y. So, it's a wing of my house that's probably the most used. My kids, when we did– my house is a 1791 farmhouse. This is this old farmhouse. When we first bought it, the kitchen was kind of an old Victorian 19th century add-on to the original revolutionary-time farmhouse, and it was not in very good shape. So, we tore it down very soon after we bought the house and built this bigger space, and in that space we made the kitchen area, but we made it because we knew that we wanted, also, the whole family to be part of it. So we made this larger space for the family living. And when the children were small, it was their play area. There was nothing in there with a big rug, and all their toys, and so that they could play, we could talk, I could cook, they could come over and help me cook, or go back and play. So, it was a good space for when they were younger. When they got older, and moved in my books, and a TV, and things like that so we could use it in that way as well. So, it's a big part of my– it's still a big part of my– big heart of, the heart of my house. So you've been to the house, so you, you remember what it was like. It's a– it's a working, it's a good working kitchen. IL: It's very beautiful. SW: Oh, thanks. [Chuckles.] IL: So, I'm thinking that about, your house that you very much made your own, making the kitchen the way you want it. SW: Right. IL: That's– How would you say that's defined your experience in Saratoga? SW: Yeah. That's a really good question because in 1971, we'll circle back to my graduating from Elmira, and getting married, and my then-newly-minted husband saying, 'I just got this job at Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs. We're going to move– we have to move there.' And I then change my graduate work to SUNI Albany, rather than other places. And I came up here, and Saratoga in 1971 was not a very attractive city. Skidmore was struggling. It was just starting to try to get its feet on the ground, in terms of co-education. It was changing its location from the old campus to the new campus. It was, it was struggling, it was. And the city itself was really struggling. It was very depressed, and depressing. I just got here and looked around and said, 'Oh my gosh. I really have to love this man to come and live here [laughs] because I don't know about this place.' And you know it– and it was, it was difficult at first because it was a difficult place, but within a year we made wonderful friends. We lived in several houses in the community before we moved to the farmhouse that I currently living now. I loved working in the high school. I met wonderful community leaders and friends, and other teachers. My graduate work was excellent at SUNI Albany, and I ended up lot starting to love the upstate New York area. I got to know the Adirondacks, so I got to understand lake environments, 'cause I was so used to being near the ocean that I missed the saltwater. I missed the ocean. And the lakes seemed to be not an adequate substitute. But in fact, it– they were. And I learned to really love this area. And Saratoga, at that time, was then beginning to really open up, and grow. It was a time when opportunities to do interesting things within the community were available as well. If you were young, and energetic, and had ideas, people were around that said, 'Well let's try it,' because there was– We needed to do something. So, I met a group of women, both faculty wives and community women. We did things like starting the gifted and talented program out of the high school in elementary school. We worked on art festivals where we took all of the abandoned, that, not abandoned, the for lease, vacant storefronts on Broadway, and there were many, if you can imagine. You think about Broadway now, it's absolutely chockablock with wonderful opportunities for businesses. There were places in blocks of Saratoga, of Broadway that were empty. That these businesses were just empty. And we put together things like an arts festival where high school kids could come in, and we would, we would display their artwork. We would have– we would bring in local artists to do demonstrations and classes. We started working with Historical Society. So, there was stuff that we could do, that young– if we were young and had energy, they were willing to have us do, and we did. And so that was lovely, and it was a way of, again, validating my interests and my energies, and my children could see their community really growing. And it was a lovely place to live. I mean, they're just nice people here. Just, just really nice people in this community, both here at Skidmore as well as in the, in the town itself. IL: Is there any particular project in town that you're proud of? SW: Well, I– you know, I'm very proud of the– I worked, early days, with the, with the gifted and talented program. Phyllis Aldridge, a wonderful friend who's still alive, still here in town, organized this project where we were able to take, present after school opportunities for talented young students in many of the elementary schools, and we would meet at the library, the library which was downtown, and we would do courses. I did a poetry writing course, I did a journal writing course. There was art classes, there were music classes. That I'm very proud of. We did, I did a journalism course where we put together a newspaper. We visited the Saratogian which was the local newspaper, is the local newspaper, and brought all the kids there. So this is the kind of thing that I'm very proud of, and it's still going. That, that's great. That kind of grassroots effort, I think, is so, so satisfying. And the town is big, much, much larger now and much more complex, but still, I think, it still has that kind of heart of wanting to do the best for its citizens. IL: That's fantastic, thank you for describing that. I'm– have covered most of what I have on my list here. SW: Sure. IL: But I have one question that kind of jumps a little bit away from what we were discussing. SW: Sure, yeah, yeah. IL: When did you first realize you liked writing? SW: Ah! That's a great question. I want to make sure I'm very honest and clear about this, I'm going to think. Well, I was always a reader. So that's first, first and foremost. And I, as you know, and as I've told my, all of my writing students, you can't be a good writer and less you're a good reader. You have to read because the word on the page becomes your models, and becomes your image– the images and the, and the cadences of the other writers as they write on the page become the voices in your head, and that's really, really terrific. So, I was always an avid, avid reader. I think that I never thought of myself as a writer primarily because it never was ever encouraged. It was again, if you think back, I've lived in this kind of community where it was not that sort of writing. Oh, you know, that's, that's fancy stuff, you know, that's writing is fancy stuff. I think I started writing in elementary school because I got a diary, for a gift, like a Christmas gift or something, or birthday present, and I, and I got a pen pal. And so, the idea of having a pen pal in another city– I got two pen pals when I was little girl, one was in another city in New England, someplace. I guess one of my teachers hooked us, you know, hooked the students up with a pen pal, and another was a pen pal in India. Don't ask me how I got that pen pal in India, but I got one, and I always remember loving to write letters to her and getting her letters back 'cause the stamps were so fabulous. The stamps were the best. And the paper felt so different than the paper that I had in the United States. So, those experiences of having a pen pal and having a diary actually probably were the things that started me off on writing, for myself. When I started teaching, I was always involved in, in student newspapers. Forever. From elementary school, to junior high school, to high school, to when I was in college, I was always on the newspaper staff. So, when I started teaching, although I wasn't a writing teacher, I was always teaching all the optional experiences of either journalism or being the newspaper club advisor. So that pushed me in that direction. As I started to do that, I realized that no one was actually teaching these kids how to write at all. It was just by osmosis that they were writing. That they were in English class, but writing wasn't really what was described. When I went to graduate school, I spent a lot of time learning pedagogy around, or, or theory around writing. Writing theory. How does– how do people think about writing, and how do they plant, how do they train themselves to be writers. Which is– what are some strategies. And that turned into some really interesting projects that I did with my high school students. That's what got me started in working with college students. So it was a kind of gradual process, both for me, and then through my early teaching experience to, to the needs of the Skidmore community, and I– because I like working with international students, I started working with international students first with my writing has a tutor, and then transitioned into teaching, working with the larger campus community with writing. IL: Thank you for sharing. I'm– I have a follow-up question with that. You mentioned that your community was fairly dismissive of an interest in writing. SW: Well, yeah. It was– I didn't– I don't remember in my high school, I'm thinking about my high school, my own high school, I don't remember, I mean, I think– the teachers that I remember encouraging me to, to love language was my Latin teacher. My Latin teacher was the person who really inspired me to love language. My English teachers were great, and I remember writing, and they all said, 'That's great, that's great,' but I don't think anybody ever gave me any actual constructive criticism. I don't think anybody sat down with me and said, 'You know, you could make this better.' It was always like, 'It's fine, it's good.' I was an A student, I was always. But I thought, well that doesn't help me. That isn't helping me. If I want to get better, you're just telling me that this is okay, and I'm done. And so, that's what I meant. I didn't– I don't, I don't remember my high school as being a place where creative writing, and in writing in general was encouraged. I could, I could be missing 'cause it was 100 years ago, so, I don't know. [Laughs.] But I'm remembering it mostly as a, something, a love that was nurtured mostly inside of me, and not from an external source until I started working with other students. Then I realized, oh I really love this. IL: Thank you. But, I– Before we kind of wrapped things up, [SW: Yep.] is there anything you'd like to share? Things that have come up in this interview? SW: When you have– you know, you know more about me than, [laughs] than anybody in Saratoga Springs right now! No, it's been a pleasure, actually a pleasure, Isabel talking with you about both my career at Skidmore and my life in Saratoga, and my life as a, as a youngster, and how I got to where I am. And it was, it's actually great fun to think about this because right before I came in here for, to have our conversation, I was FaceTiming with one of my children and my grandchildren, and as I was describing some of these stories I was telling you, I was thinking of them and saying, 'I should tell these stories to these kids. These kids don't know any of these stories.' And they need to know them, I think. So that's– you've peaked my interest ant gotten me excited about sharing some of this with, with them as well. IL: Well I'm so glad, and thank you so much for sharing this with me. SW: You're welcome. IL: It's been an honor and a privilege. SW: My pleasure, and I hope your project in this larger project continues to go as well as, as it seems to be going. IL: Thank you very much. SW: Okay, thank you. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Oral history interview Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) Interview 1 – 54:04 Interview 2 – 54:03 Bit Rate/Frequency Rate at which bits are transferred (i.e. 96 kbit/s would be FM quality audio) 128 kbit/s Time Summary A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview November 23, 2019 interview 00:00:00 Header 00:01:55 University Without Walls 00:03:20 University Without Walls prison program 00:05:20 "it changed lives" 00:06:40 Master's program at Skidmore 00:07:24 Master's program closed, and Welter started full-time at the Skidmore English Department 00:08:11 Last ten years of Welter's career 00:09:23 Question on University Without Walls (UWW) 00:13:34 Welter's job with UWW 00:14:09 UWW national forum 00:14:58 Prison program set-up 00:16:36 How Welter became involved in the prison program. 00:18:33 "They were like sponges." 00:19:52 "As close to normal as we could create" for the prison program. 00:20:12 Writing a monograph on behavior, she never felt in danger. 00:23:00 "game plan or guidebook" 00:23:42 Amazing students, hundreds positively impacted by the program. 00:25:12 "All you need to do is let him speak" [on a student of the prison program]. 00:26:18 Master of Liberal Studies (MLS) program 00:28:16 Welter hired as an advisor. 00:30:01 Why the MLS program closed. 00:30:49 On-campus teaching 00:32:00 Not ready to retire, travel writing course. 00:33:40 "Since retirement" 00:34:40 Teaching in China 00:38:26 Literary magazine in China 00:40:00 Welter wanted to go to China because of international Chinese students at Skidmore. 00:41:40 Teaching EN 103 00:42:39 Welter likes "working with students who are challenged." 00:44:30 On the discipline of writing. 00:46:33 "Every student can do this." 00:47:51 Changing technology, writing incredibly impacted. 00:50:48 Technology added ease and responsibility. 00:52:25 Her professional trajectory reflection and in connection with Skidmore philosophy. 00:53:32 How Welter's children think of Skidmore. 00:54:02 END February 5, 2020 interview 00:00:00 Header 00:00:24 Summary of previous interview. 00:01:14 Sons' connection with Skidmore. 00:03:12 Came to Skidmore "as a new bride." 00:04:36 Teaching in the Saratoga Springs High School. 00:05:04 "[A]nxious to get back to the workforce." 00:06:00 Going co-educational, Skidmore and Elmira. 00:08:25 Choosing Elmira. 00:11:27 Cultural revolution in the 1960s. 00:12:18 Going abroad. 00:13:15 University of Leicester. 00:16:06 International students at Leicester. 00:17:37 Women in her dormitory. 00:18:46 Traveling while studying abroad. 00:20:53 Missing events in 1969-70. 00:21:56 Experience with Woodstock. 00:23:39 Returning to the US and "staying at home was small." 00:24:37 "...lit a fire" of interest in seeing the world. 00:25:54 Talking about hometown and childhood. 00:30:14 Her maternal grandparents, eating a meal at their house. 00:32:58 Grandmother's house. 00:34:17 Cooking with her grandmother. 00:36:17 Cooking with her sons. 00:38:44 The kitchen is the center of her house. 00:41:00 Coming to Saratoga and being involved with happenings in town. 00:45:15 The gifted and talented program. 00:46:57 How Sandy's love of writing grew. 00:52:49 Closing comments. 00:54:03 END Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Isabel M.R. Long Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 7/2/2020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews with Sandra "Sandy" Welter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 5, 2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Skidmore College Language A language of the resource Eng Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sandy Welter Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Isabel M.R. Long Description An account of the resource This life history interview shares the story of Sandra "Sandy" Welter, who worked as director of University Without Wall (UWW) prison program, administrator for the Master of Arts and Liberal Studies (MALS), and English professor at Skidmore College from the early 80s, until she retired in 2017. After a childhood in in East Haven, Connecticut and studies at Elmira College that included a year abroad at Leicester University (UK), Sandy came to Saratoga Springs in the early 70s as a Skidmore College spouse, and worked at Saratoga High School. When teaching in and advising students of the UWW prison program, Sandy supported non-traditional, non-residential graduate and undergraduate students and taught EN 103 (Writing Seminar) for many years. She ended her tenure at Skidmore teaching a travel-writing course, reflecting her own love for travel. https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8a490139188c429472c9bba294a7014d.jpg 786316ef1a9cf19bf83ffc97f9c4cda3 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/8c7bc545d98c897b337600b4a526be16.mp3 42376f4afe241f0b71f16cfe4e5715c7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cf49a5b921a0323510c5f73baf6ac47f.pdf 9291c6e701d0865e6b92d295962ccb53 PDF Text Text Interviewee: Dave Marcell Years at Skidmore: 1964-1992; 2001-2008 Interviewer: Lynne Gelber Location of Interview: Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College Date of Interview: January 15, 2019 00:00:00 - Introduction by Gelber 00:00:30 - Where Marcell grew up, history of his education. 00:00:45 - Story of how Marcell heard about the job at Skidmore College 00:02:55 - The American Studies program at Skidmore during the ‘60s 00:04:20 - The death of Val Wilson and Marcell accepting the job offer at Skidmore 00:06:00 - Further description of the American Studies Department and Marcell’s responsibilities as the head of the department 00:07:24 - The classes Marcell taught during the beginning of his career 00:09:00 - Growth of the program and becoming a department 00:10:08 - Friction between the American Studies department and other departments 00:10:55 - Course registration of Fall ‘64 00:13:00 - Marcell’s biggest challenges during his career 00:15:20 - The hiring of new professors in the American Studies Department 00:16:00 - How Marcell became the Provost and why the job was open in the first place 00:20:00 - Comparison of Skidmore to other colleges at which Marcell worked 00:21:30 - Challenges of being the Provost at Skidmore College- becoming a co-ed college 00:24:40 - The orange juice riots 00:26:00 - Development of new landscaping and buildings on campus 00:28:20 - Aggregate cost of all capital investment at Skidmore 00:28:47 - How Skidmore came to build the new campus 00:30:28 - Funding new buildings on campus 00:33:15 - Expanding the applicant pool beyond just women 00:35:00 - Mishap writing letters to parents of prospective students 00:37:30 - Describing the collegial culture of Skidmore 00:39:55 - The tightness of the budget during the ‘60s and ‘70s 00:42:40 - Number of females on the faculty 00:44:30 - Rejection of a union for the faculty 00:45:50 - Marcell describes the nursing program 00:47:30 - Downfall of the nursing program 00:52:00 - Beginning the Phi Betta Kappa Chapter at Skidmore 00:54:20 - Discussing how special Skidmore was as an employer in Marcell’s experience 00:57:00 - Having to fire someone for the first time 00:58:00 - Discussing positive relationships with colleagues 00:59:03 - Closing remarks � https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e208c12ea8a061083426217f919e4a10.pdf 693c01817a67d8f5be220afe5db7c36d PDF Text Text Interview with Dave Marcell by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, New York, January 15, 2019. LYNNE GELBER: This is Lynne Gelber and I'm here with Dave Marcell. It's January15th, 2019. So Dave, let's start by telling us where you grew up grew up. DAVE MARCELL: I grew up in central Florida in the 40s and 50s, my parents retired after World War II. I went to public school in Deland, Florida, and then attended the university that was in the townStetson University. One of my professors at Stetson was an American studies PhD from Yale. He was my mentor and ideal, and thanks to his influence I went on the Yale. Did a doctorate in American Studies from '58 to '64. The last year I was at Yale, I was teaching in the history department and finishing my dissertation and I got a phone call from the secretary in the American Studies department. She said, "Would you please come over here. There's a man here who wants to interview you." I said, "What's that for?" She said, “For a job!" I said, "Well, I've got a job." She said "Well, I don’t know what to do with them. Would you please come over here? He's very nice." And I said, "Well, I've got pick my dissertation up from the bindery and drop it off. I'll be over there in an hour." And I went over, and it was Edwin Mosley. LG: And Edwin's position at the time was? DM: Edwin Mosley's position was Dean of the Faculty at Skidmore College. We had a nice chat. LG: Do you know how he had heard of you? DM: He was, he just happened to swing by. He was visiting doctoral programs in American Studies, and I don't know where he had been before. His degree was from Syracuse, which had a doctoral program. But, anyway, we had a nice chat. I remember saying that I had a job I was going to continue on as an instructor for the following year, but he described Skidmore and the position and I liked him and I said, "Sure I'll come up." And so, I came up with their American Studies department. �LG: Now, was there an American Studies department? DM: No, there was an American Studies program and it had been up and running for three or four years and the person who was coordinating, directing it, was leaving. He had gotten tenure, but he was leaving and he'd accepted a position at Long Island University. So, I came up and they had a long schedule of two days of meetings and it started off with 1/2 an hour with the president of the college, with Val Wilson, and I think this was a Thursday afternoon. I spent 1/2 an hour, 45 minutes with him- lovely, lovely man- and it was just a wonderful conversation and I thought, "My gosh, if the leadership of the college is reflected by this man, he would be a wonderful person to know." And then the Dean turned me over to a faculty member named Irwin Levine. He put Irwin on my case he did. He didn't want the fellow who was leaving to introduce me to the students because there'd been some complexity about his departure and his relationship with the other students. So anyway, Irwin took me by the hand, the arm and squired me around and we were instantly friends. And the rest sort of his history. LG: Except that Val WIlson... DM: I went back to New Haven, picked up the New York Times on Sunday, and there was Val Wilson's obituary. He had died either that afternoon or the next afternoon. He was out playing tennis with a student. He had a heart condition, and he knew that he had this condition, but it was still a very sudden and terrible thing. So Edwin Mosley called up and said, well, our decision will be delayed but anyway, the visit was just terrific. I loved Saratoga and, anyway, they made me an offer and I accepted it. The date of this, I remember because I came up here on the 15th of April and... the year? Oh, God. 1964. Yeah, I remember driving up the Northway thinking, "Gosh, I wonder if I'll be coming this way again." And so, anyway, they made the offer and I accepted it and it was, it was an unusual organizational structure because the American Studies program-and I think was the only interdisciplinary program that had a major- there was an Asian studies program, but I don't even think it had a minor at that time. Anyway, what the director of American Studies did was offer core thematic courses in American culture and then the student major would flesh out this core of courses with courses with courses �in the discrete departments in the American subject areas. And as it happened in those days, the American assistants in history, government, or philosophy were all just really super people so the aggregate of the program, depending on how the students organized their courses, was really terrific. LG: So your title was what? DM: Director of the American studies program. I was... LG: And your responsibility was... DM: I coordinated all the courses, I supervised all the majors, and the majors were only juniors and seniors, but there were about 20. I would guess something like that. I taught- in those days the full load was six courses. I got one course relief from doing all of that other stuff and then I had to fabricate from whole cloth, five new courses, and coordinate with the students supervise the senior theses, which was part of the requirement in those days... LG: So what courses did you teach? When you started? DM: I had a two-semester sequence called the history of American civilization, which was a freshman and sophomore lecture coursetwo lectures in one discussion group a week. And then I had seminars in different subject areas. I had one called American Documents that took traditional all major readings in the subject area. And then I had an interest in American intellectual history. I had, I wrote a dissertation on the idea of progress and its place in the pragmatic tradition, James Dewey and Beard, so I taught a course in American Intellectual history. Gosh, I can even remember- a senior seminar in how to use interdisciplinary sources to flesh out and put into context certain events and episodes in American history and so forth. LG: How many students were in there at the time? DM: In the seminars there would be anywhere from 10 to 15. In the large freshman course, there were 50 or 60 and it was it was a full load. I don't remember a lot of it because it went by so fast. We had a new �baby. LG: So you had 50-60 people in one section? DM: Yeah. Large lecture, two lectures a week, and I broke it down into three or four discussion sections. And then the program grew, and in about, by about '67 we really needed another faculty member and were authorized to do that. I hired a guy from the University of Pennsylvania. Brilliant, wonderful colleague, Stuart Bluman. Did you ever remember Stu Bluman? He spent most of his career at MIT and then at Cornell and he was with us for a couple of years. And at that point we became a department and what, what status that gave us, I do not know, but it created a lot of friction with other departments. LG: Like history? DM: History, Philosophy. Back in those days the departments were really quite siloed and there was great emphasis on each department as a major. There were, other than the Asian Studies program and American Studies, there weren't any interdisciplinary majors. It wasn't until the late 60s the students could create an elective major and then later until the Liberal studies curriculum came into being, and the college made a macro commitment to interdisciplinary team as part of its identity was almost a complete reversal of what I experienced as a as a young faculty member here. LG: Do you think the conflict was competition for majors? DM: Oh yes, oh my goodness. My first formal experience at Skidmore was registration of for the fall semester of '64 and symbolically, the registration was down in the Canfield Casino and each department had a table and people could go around and pick courses out. And there was a senior History major who wanted to take the course in American Documents, but that was a 200-level and she needed a 300-level and I said well I think what I can do is give you some extra assignments, and you can sign up for an independent study. You'll take the 200-level course, do this extra work... and she's all, "That sounds wonderful." So I signed off. Five minutes later, like a V2 rocket, the chair of the history department was in front of me, Louise Dalby, "What are you doing, blah blah blah." I told her what �happened. She said you didn't ask my permission. I said, "Oh, well, it's better to ask permission than excuses, and so forth. Do I have it?" She said, "Of course." Anyway, we became good friends and over the years after that. But I remember someone describing to me the departmentalization as a small well-defined fiefdom of whose boundaries were patrolled by the chair of the department. And that that may echo with some of your recollections, too. LG: What were your biggest challenges, over the years, do you think? DM: Juggling it all, because the field of American studies had a kind of metabolism that was just very rapid, because of its multidisciplinarity. It has all kinds of disciplines and subdisciplines that feed into it. Trying to stay on top of what was happening with the field, as well as make sure that whatever courses you were putting together would be useful and recognizable by people in the field was a challenge. I was lucky I- the second year that I was at Skidmore, '65 or or '66, I went to the state meeting of the American Studies Association and became the editor of a bibliography that came out every year on studies in the theory and teaching of American studies. So I did that for about 10 years and that gave me a kind of professional reason to keep surveying the field and seeing what new programs were offered. What new methodologies and approaches were emerging and so forth. So I kept changing my readings in my courses because when you come out of the graduate program, I was a history- government major as an undergraduate. I had taken one American literature course, but so I had to educate myself in a lot of the areas. So I just kept changing my readings and then try to keep up with myself and stay a paragraph or two ahead of the students. I was also trying to write, and get the book done ... LG: And your program kept growing. DM: And then growing the program kept growing. LG: So then you did some hiring? DM: We hired Prof. Bluman, Stu Bluman, and at what time? I guess about '69 or '70. We hired Mary Lynn, who had spent a year teaching in the history department and gave another dimension to American �Studies. I was trying very hard not to duplicate work that was being done by the Americanists in the other areas, and but by that time, we probably had a total, oh, I don't remember, 30 majors at junior and senior level. And it just kept growing as an enterprise and I stayed as chairman of the department until '77 and then became Provost and academic VP. LG: Now, why did that happen? DM: It happened because I was elected to the search committee for the Provost and we had interviewed three or four candidates and I got a call from the President asking if I would have lunch with him. That was Joe Palamountain, and he asked if I would be willing to resign from the search committee and become a candidate for the Provost job. And I said, "Well if it's okay with the other members of the search committee and if it's okay with the CAPTS committee, yes." And so he did all those bases... LG: In retrospect, do you know why that reconfiguration was taking place? DM: What had happened, and it happened about three or four years after I first arrived at Skidmore, Edwin Mosley, who was Dean of the Faculty, his position was changed into Provost and Dean of the faculty and Norma McCurry, who had been the Dean of the College and who had been in effect, the chief academic officer was moved to report to Edwin. Norma was a brilliant, wonderful woman her- She was a linguist, but she had been in effect, the chief student affairs officer. Edwin, who was a very, very academic affairs. He was he was a very distinguished scholar as well as a just a legendary teacher and so the that division of labor, I think for both of them worked out well. And so what happened was the other person became Dean of the Faculty, do I remember who it was? I'm not even sure. They divided it up at some point. Who became the Dean? Eric Weller became the Dean of Studies and that supplemented some of the academic advising work that Norma had been responsible for. But, by the time Edwin was being replaced, Edwin became ill, and I remember there had to be an acting Dean and whether there was an acting Provost or not, I don't remember. The positions were separated for the purposes of that search, and they ran the search for the Provost first. And then when I was appointed, my responsibility was to run the search for the Dean of the Faculty. That became Eric. We ran a national search on... �boy, these are old synapses, I haven't tested these in a long time (laughs). But Ed, as you can imagine, anybody who moves into an upper level administrative position, after having spent 14 years as a faculty member... Memories are long, issues are complicated, and every idiotic thing I said as a young first or second year faculty member trailed behind me. But, looking back at Skidmore from having moved to other institutions and having worked at- after I return took I took early retirement here when I was 55LG: And what year was that? DM: '91, and I worked at Rollins College for two years. I worked at Bennington College for two years and seeing those institutions and comparing them with Skidmore, Skidmore had a much more professional and collegial culture than those other institutions. As a matter fact, when I went over and worked at Bennington, Bennington was in the middle of a capital campaign and in the middle of that capital campaign, the trustees seized control of the college from the faculty, fired 1/3 of the faculty, and went through the convulsions that... well, they were, they were on the weekly supplement to the New York Times. You may remember some of those things, they ripple out, and Bennington had a culture where every faculty member felt they had a veto over anything at the college and they had a brilliant and interesting and wonderful faculty. But as an organizational structure, their culture was just absolutely toxic. LG: But let's get back to Skidmore. Once you became Provost, what were the highlights, and what were the challenges? DM: Well, the challenges were basically to support the administrative structures that were already in place in terms of both the academic, this cultural student affairs area. All of the deans and directors on the academic side reported up to the Provost and then there were two other VP for business and development. So, one, I had to learn enough about the discrete areas of student affairs, computers. The computers, IT reported to the Provost, and so forth to make sure that we have the right people running those operations I inherited. For example, admissions, about which I knew absolutely nothing. But we happily had a just brilliant, wonderful director of admissions, �Benny Wise, and I asked her what she needed and what I needed to know in order to be her supervisor. She took me under her wing. And we were off and running. One of the first things that she said is we have done some things and haven't planned ahead for doing them. I said, "Well, what are you thinking of?" "Well, we went coed." Well I knew we had done that, but I knew it from the point of view of a faculty member. I said, "What are the kinds of planning steps we might've taken and shouldn't-should have?" She said, "Well, all we did was in effect, say the words, we would no longer discriminate against male applicants, and we sat back and waited. And sure enough they began to dribble in." But, and mercifully, because she was such a creative person, she had a whole series of recommendations on how to make the college more attractive to male applicants. But all of these were things that couldn't be siloed, they had to be decisions made in consultation with the faculty, with plant, with development, with alumni affairs, and so forth. LG: Can you give me an example? DM: Well, how does one prepare a 90% single-sex institution to morph into a 60/40%? What are the things that competitive, coeducational institutions offered that we don't? Well, physical education and athletics was one of them, but was only one of them. They had to change all of the dietetic expectations. Do you remember the orange juice riots? LG: I remember, when the trustees were here. Can you describe the orange juice riots? DM: Well, the boys, as they went through the lines over in the dining hall wanted seconds and thirds, and that was a new experience for the staff over there for planning, etc. etc. etc. And they wanted seconds on orange juice (laughs) and this is one of the things about Skidmore and I don't think I appreciated at the time, but Skidmore was in the in the business of inventing itself as an institution on so many fronts. We were building a new campus. That was one decision that we made which was made in the nick of time. We went coeducational and that's another one made in the nick of time and all of these- both of those decisions involved huge leaps of faith. I remember when I first got here that Eric was taken out to see the new campus by Levine and we drove out into the woods and there was a backhoe digging a hole which became the basement of the library. �And I began to realize as I worked at the college after five or 10 years that every time we built a building, the next year, the interior space of that building would have to be changed because it wasn't just right. And so we were, we were lucky enough to be flexible enough to imagine that as we grew programmatically, we had to change the landscape, we had to change the environment and that in turn changed one of the widgets that was planning the next stage, and so forth. And we were doing this on a shoestring. The endowment for Skidmore when it made the decision to build a new campus was under $1 million and we'd never raised capital money. There was one project I heard about later that we raise the money for father's hall that was on the old campus and that was raised through parental solicitation, but the early campus planning that we undertook projected that the new campus would take 25 years and $25 million. Here we are, how many years later the new campus is still- and the latest building is going up- cost more than the... LG: The Integrated Sciences Building. DM: The integrated sciences building cost more than the whole campus. When Joe retired, I remember him, Joe Palamountain. Joe was president from '65 to '87. I remember when he bid farewell and retired from the campus. He reported that during his tenure, we had constructed 37 buildings. What, how many are we done now? it must be 90 or 100. LG: And some of them have been taken down and replaced (laughs). DM: Yeah! I asked somebody in the administration the other day whether we had an aggregate cost of all of the capital investment in Skidmore, in what the campus is now, and nobody quite has it. So, anyway, I guess I keep shifting my focus because I didn't prepare for this, but looking back, it was an act of faith. How Skidmore came to build the new campus was a series of developments that nobody could imagine. The campus, the Hilton estate, had been in probate ever since the 30s. Lucy Skidmore Scribner had tried to get it for the college but it didn't get out of whatever the complexities were behind that until 1960, and we had a parent who was on the Board of Trustees at RPI, J. Eric Johnson, who was the CEO of Texas Instruments, and his daughter had been a student at Skidmore and she'd gotten ill. I don't know the details, but �the college had just taken wonderful care of her, they'd bent over backwards to make sure she didn't lose time, and he was so impressed by that, that when the Hilton estate came on the market, he offered to buy it and donate to the college if the college would build from scratch a whole new campus. And he did that, as Joe Palamountain used to tell the story: We took a deep breath and decided to go for broke and we almost did. (laughs) And he bought this piece of property, 650 acres, $130,000 donated to the college and we went on a- and this is all before I arrived. We had, I think was a Ford foundation grant, to plan the first iteration of new campus planning and that was what was in process when I joined the faculty in '64. We hired architects from San Antonio, Ford and Carson. They had built a number of campuses, one of which was Trinity University in San Antonio. We have some buildings that look very much like that campus. But the planning was systematic, and so forth. Most institutions, most mature colleges, if they venture in a new capital project, the Board won't authorize it unless you've got half in hand and half in site. The only building that I think we may have been able to do that with was the Zankel Music Hall because Arthur Zankel left us a bequest. And everything else, all we had were plans and hopes and dreams and a certain amount of momentum. And we had a, the New York State dormitory bond issue would- they bonded out some of the first buildings that were built. This library that we’re sitting in now was the firstLG: First building? DM: First building to open, and it opened in either '65 or '66. Do you know what it cost? 1.4 million. And so, but what happened is, we just kept venturing and I wasn't aware of this at all. I didn't think about these things when I was a faculty member. I was trying to get my exams graded and so forth, and so but every year as we constructed more, built more, grew more, our capacity to raise money grew and our ability to attract more students grew. And one of the reasons why Benny Wise was so concerned that we hadn't been planful in going coed was that we'd missed opportunities, because in the decade of the 70s a lot of single- sex institutions went coed. Well, our original plan was that we would build a campus for 2,000 women that was what we envisioned in '62, three, four, not realizing the market for women was going to get extremely tough and tight in the 70s. �LG: Because they could then go to other institutions. DM: They had more choices. Yeah, I remember vividly my first meeting with Louise Wise. I said, you know, "What are your biggest problems and how can I help?" I said, "I don't know anything about your area, but if you know what you need, you tell me and we're going to go get it for you." She said, "We need to expand the applicant pool." I said, "Tell me about that. What was our applicant pool this year?" She said, "Oh, 1,830." I said, "How many did we accept?" "Just under 1,830." And I said, "What were we trying to shoot for as a goal?" We were trying to shoot for, I think, was 400 students in the freshman class and I said, "So you're telling me that we are not a selective institution now, but we aspire to become one?" "Yes." "So, okay, how do we do this?" She had a whole series of ideas. One was using new computer capabilities to communicate with the families of applicants in a very targeted and personal way. And I said, "Well, how can I help?" She said, "I have a project for you. I want you to write a letter as the Chief Academic Officer of the College to the parents of each student and tell them why, from an academic point of view, you think Skidmore would be a good place for their son or daughter." I got to work, and we cobbled up a letter. She was also a very good editor, happily, and letters went out. I get a letter back almost in returned mail. This was this was in March of of my first whole year and it was from a father who said, "Dear Provost Marcell, happy to get your letter. I found.... he said but how are you going to find a roommate for my son Nancy?" And I said, "Oh, golly." So I sat down, "Mr. Owens, we're just venturing as a new way of communicating with parents, we're personalizing our communications, and unfortunately the computer kicked out the wrong gender for your letter and I apologize, but don't worry we'll take good care of Nancy should she decide to come here." And I signed this and thought, I can't send this out. I said, "P.S. I still can't understand why you named your son Nancy." (Laughs) Anyway, come September, there's a knock on my door and here's this very nice guy standing there with a very sheepish young woman, and it was Nancy. But that was the kind of the thing that Louise knew what we should be doing, and she had all kinds of other ideas. And the same thing with computers and so forth. I could barely type a letter on the computer, but I talked with the people in what is now IT, what did we need, and was able to go out and find Ken Hapeman. You may remember Ken, I said the same thing to him: "You tell me what you need and I'll try to get it for you." And help me understand why you �needed it and so forth and so on. So it was, it was easy to do because the institution had such a good collegial culture. LG: Could you describe that culture a little bit? DM: Well, I first experienced it as a faculty member on committees. Academic Freedom and Rights, Tenure, Faculty Council. Those kinds of things. But there was also one committee, that I don't even remember what it was called, but it monitored the budget. And there were two faculty members sitting on it, and so forth, and I just began to realize that while I thought, I probably had been here five or six or seven years before I went on that committee. I thought I knew the college pretty well, and until we walked through the budget, I realized I didn't anything about why these budgets were there, why they were organized the way they work, what the history was of each line item in the budget. And it took three or four years to get that, but there was never any- that I experienced- never any attempt to limit the information flow between administration and faculty, and there were always rumors that Ted Butler really had a pot of gold. LG: Do you want to say, for the record, who Ted ButlerDM: Ted Butler was the budget officer and chief accountant, but what I realize, and in those days that the total operating budget of the college was maybe $20 million. Do you know what our contingency fund was for the college? $250,000 for everything. And every budget was so tight that if any operating area of the college could come in with a surplus, it could be then used for those areas that couldn't control her budgets and so forth. Every budgetary year was an act of faith and throwing of the dice. There was one year, about, and I didn't know this until after I retired and read the history of Skidmore. We had four buildings going up at same time and we didn't have the money for any of them, other than what we were able to borrow through bonding and whatever the capital campaign was going to be able to do that year. We got, and you may remember this because it happened- when did you come? LG: '66. �DM: '66. It happened in 1970. Our auditors provided an audit report to the Board of Trustees that they could not assure our publics that Skidmore would be a going concern given the value of the assets, the indebtedness, the cash on hand, etc. etc. And that's a crisis for an institution. And it was reported to the Board and the Board said we will plunge on ahead, we will redouble our fundraising activities etc. etc. We'll either launch a new capital campaign or something and anyways, looking back from this vantage point, Skidmore seems very different. One of the ways we were funding the new campus- when I first got here in '64, the student population was somewhere between 1,350 and 1,400 students and that was '64. In '65, we grew to 1,500 students, we added 10 faculty members that year and we were going out and hiring young faculty at competitive prices and, I don't know, somebody must've been worried about how we were, because we hired at competitive prices, how we were going to stay competitive for those new 10 faculty as they aged in place because Skidmore's upper level salaries were not competitive, and so forth. So here we were trying to make it up as we went. LG: Do you think it was because there were a lot of females on the faculty? DM: That was part of it because I know there had been times that I heard about back in the depression where married couples had to split one salary and women were notoriously underpaid, etc. Probably when I came here, 3/5 of the faculty were female, something like that. It was like you, somewhere I heard this image at a development conference, and it really struck me to the quick. It's like imagining some guy running down the street with a bag of bicycle parts and is trying to put the bicycle together, get on it and pedal and accelerate all at same time. And thinking back, this is what Skidmore was going through. I can remember in '70 or '72. All of a sudden we were not to get the salary increase for the next year and what a blow this was to people. We all thought, "Oh my God!" Well, we managed to scratch up, I think a 2% increase belatedly after the damage was done from telling everybody no raises this year. LG: Yeah, faculty wasn't happy about that, were they? DM: Faculty was ever happy about anything. And I'll tell you one of the reasons why they're not happy. And this is sort of self-analysis, too. Faculty are really smart and every faculty we've got is the expert in �their field. LG: Do you think that's why the faculty ultimately rejected a union? Remember that? DM: Did we ever really seriously consider a union? LG: We had representatives. DM: Several groups were talking about it I know. I don't know, but it's very hard to go from a situation where, say you're in a department of 10 people and you're the expert on so-and-so, but you've also got opinions about everything, and I remember trying to grasp all of the things that in '77 I suddenly found myself administratively responsible for, and I didn't know anything about. So I'm thinkin, "Okay, well...." Anyway. LG: Those are challenges! Okay so what do you think was the greatest moment for you? Of course, of your career here. DM: Gosh. I'll start at the other end. The most difficult series of experiences was the closing of the nursing department. And that that was difficult personally because the first year that I was here I had in my freshman class a senior nurse who was just brilliant. She was just, and then over the next couple of years, the old nursing pattern was you spend your first year in Saratoga then go to New York for two years of nursing, you take advantage of all those clinical sites and all of the sophistication of the hospitals, and this and that, and then you'd come back to Saratoga for your senior year. And the women who came back to Saratoga from their senior year, they were worldly, they were cosmopolitan. They hadyou talk about growth- and anyways so I always just loved the nurses. And then one of the things that happened in the late 70s, as I kept working with Louise Wise for admissions, she said, "We're going to have a hard time enrolling our class in the nursing program." She alerted me to that about the second or third year. I said, "What's happening? Why, why? We have had at Skidmore since the 20s a baccalaureate nursing program that really is a flagship program." I would venture to say that of all the programs we had at Skidmore, it had the most power and prestige of any of our programs. Better than art, better than, I don't know, what our strong programs were. �LG: Can you describe the downfall? DM: Well, what was happening across the country and, finally by the time our program graduated the last nursing student in '85. Statistically, women who wanted a career in medicine, more women wanted MDs than BSs in nursing. And nursing programs all around the country, distinguished programs were just folding. Well, it's a complicated thing. As we began to realize that this was a problem for Skidmore, we had a building on 38th St., a campus that housed 80 some odd students, classrooms, labs- wonderful building, beautiful piece of location, right around the corner from the big-what was a big hospital down there? Anyway. I remember the year that we finally made the decision that we would close the program, Louise had said we need to enroll 40 new nursing students. We have an applicant pool of X. And if we get 15, we'll be lucky. And we needed to fill those beds in the nursing building down there. I don't know what the building cost. Anyway, it was happening all over the country and we had done studies. The chair of the board directed me to make a study about the field of nursing and what he wanted was a ringing endorsement of the nursing program. I spent three months doing as much research as I could. I came back with a program with a report that said, unless we can find some way of either distinguishing ourselves as different or, whatever, our program is not going to be competitive and that's that. And next we started off with what was, historically, I think probably the strongest program in the college. It was just market forces and, oh God, and we had a very strong nursing faculty. Half of them were graduates of Skidmore and they were fiercely loyal to the program, to the college, and this and that. And one of the things that, as I was trying make this report, we had started a UWW nursing program, and we had 1/2 a dozen students in it. But we had to make use of the Skidmore faculty in order to deliver that program to the UWW students. Well, I said, "Well, is there any nursing program we can affiliate with?" So I went down and talked with the people at Russell Sage. Russell Sage has a very respectable nursing program. And I raise this with the faculty down there and they just curled their lips and would have nothing to do with it because the clinical sites that were available in this area did not compare with the clinical sites in New York. And they were right! On the other hand, what does it take to produce a baccalaureate nursing graduate? Did you have to have all... Anyway, it was doubly complicated as I was to learn because the National League �for Nursing, which was the organization that controlled the standards for the profession, said you could not transfer a course in nursing from one academic program to another. In other words, if you were halfway through your nursing schedule at Sage you couldn't pick up your nursing credits and transfer to Skidmore. The NLN wouldn't....so anyway... LG: I'd like to end this on a high note, though... DM: (laughs) You can edit out some stuff, I hope. LG: One of the most positive moments for you. DM: I think the most positive moment, it's very selfish. We applied for a Phi Beta Kappa Chapter at Skidmore. I think this was like 1970, something like that, and I had gone to a university that didn't have a Phi Beta Kappa Chapter and it had a chapter installed three or four years after I graduated. And one of the nice things about having a new chapter installed is the new institution can pick I think it's five alumni to induct into their Phi Beta Kappa Chapter and Stetson did that for me. So when we were looking at Phi Beta Kappa at Skidmore, one of the criteria is how many of your faculty have Phi Beta Kappa keys. And I was able to raise my hand. And that's small and impersonal. I think some of the big stuff- I was very much in favor of the 4-1-4 curricular change but I didn't play much of a role. I was very much in favor of the liberal studies curriculum because, here we were, as an institution making a commitment to interdisciplinary approaches to...the world is interdisciplinary as we experience it, and so forth. When I first came here, and I had to make sure if I was dealing with Jefferson, I wasn't poaching on the history department's turf or something. And Harry Prosch never forgave me for having the temerity to write about James and Dewey without being a philosopher. Anyway. LG: Dave, thank you so much. This has been fascinating. Bringing back memories... Is there anything that you want to say that we haven't... DM: Well, Skidmore... I think we all knew.... and at different stages in ourI spent off and on 35 years....I retired, I took early retirement when I �was 55, went off and did other stuff and then I came back. And I worked halftime for eight years as a fundraiser. And what I realized is how special, how lucky we are. Yeah, God. When Irwin was squiring me around the first day on campus, we walked across, were out behind Father's Hall and Henry Gallant comes out. How are you, and we chatted, and it was fun, and this is my department chair this and Henry said, "When at Harvard, I did this and that, we chatted." Henry went off and Irwin said that's my department chair, I said "Yes, you both mentioned that," and he said, “he can't go to football games." And he said, "He thinks those guys down there in the huddle are talking about him." (laughs). You'll have to edit some of this stuff out. (laughs) LG: Dave, thank you so much for doing this. DM: Well, there's so much more to talk about, but on the other hand, and I didn't realize this until you-I thought Skidmore was the norm, because it's all coming out of graduate school, I went straight from college to graduate schools to Skidmore and I didn't know anything about... I took the job as Provost at Rawlinson, got there in August and the President told me my first assignment was to fire the athletic director. And I said, "Well, why haven't you done that?" "Well, we were saving that for you." "And have you already reached the decision that should happen?" "Yes." I said, "Okay." He was a very, very nice guy and there was a whole history of conflict with coaches and this and that. Anyway, so, I took him out to lunch less and I said, "What would you like to do with the rest of your life? You're a tenured faculty member and we need a new athletic director, so I have been told." And he couldn't have been nicer. He said, "Well, I'd like to do this and this and this." And I said, "Well, let's do that. " Anyway, our weekly staff meetings are in the president's staff and I'm taking notes furiously. The names don't mean anything. The issues... So I'm taking notes. And about the third or fourth staff meeting Pres. refers to something, and I go back and look at my notes and it was directly opposite to what had been said at the previous day. I looked up and the guy was the vice president for development was looking at me, and he just went..... And I just went, "Oh, shit." But I was lucky with this one when I became Provost, the guy who was the EP for business affairs here was a close friend of Joe Palamountain and he was brilliant guy. He'd been a mathematics major at Syracuse, Jim McCabe, and he was a vice president for research and marketing at Merck before he came here, and he just took me under his wing. We would have lunch once a week and he explained everything and Jim �was a delightful guy in staff meetings. He never argued, and yes was, "Well maybe we ought to try that!" No was "Well, I'm not so sure that's a good idea." I was a faculty member, I was all, "God damn it, we gotta do this, and that." I thought, "I want to grow to be just like that." And it just wasn't in my nature. LG: So a place of good colleagues. DM: Mmm. LG: Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dave Marcell Location The location of the interview Lucy Scribner Library, Skidmore College Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 00:59:04 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Susan Bender Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit February 3, 2022 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dave Marcell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 15, 2019 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource David Marcell, came to Skidmore as Director of the American Studies program in 1964 and became the College’s Provost in 1977. In this interview he describes early initiatives in interdisciplinary teaching and learning at the College, including a young faculty member’s experience of navigating a curriculum tightly defined by disciplinary boundaries.  Marcell paints a lively picture of the College’s culture and administrative structure throughout the 70’s and 80’s, including the “orange juice riots” and supportive collegial relations. Marcell also reflects on challenges the College faced as it constructed a new campus, navigated the changes created by coeducation, and closed its highly regarded nursing program.  After 10 years away, Marcell returned to Skidmore to work for several years in Advancement.  Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History admissions American Studies Budget Crisis coeducation Eric Weller J Erik Jonsson Louise Wise Nursing Program Palamountain Val Wilson https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/021dc1b39de2d620b04982b05470b5a0.jpg be1e85aa1eec54050c9a5c0040ee3def https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/c848b93c188138981c4e52bf31672b5f.m4a d76b150479d05d6a31538feaeb31dfe7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4ac52cf5a10c10aa0efd7ad0152c4a47.pdf 4eaefd00ff67e99f4ccc557f82f59d76 PDF Text Text Interview with Penny Jolly by Lynne Gelber, Skidmore College Retiree Oral History Project, Saratoga Springs, NY, January 17th, 2025. LYNNE GELBER: It's January 17th, 2025, and I'm here with Sue Bender to interview Penny Jolly. SUE BENDER: Your name. LG: This is Lynne Gelber. And Penny, why don't we start by asking you where you grew up and a little bit about your background. PENNY JOLLY: Well, I grew up in Larchmont/Mamaroneck, New York, which is part of the suburbs of New York City. My dad was an American history teacher at the Mamaroneck High School. So, I grew up in a very nice environment. I would have to say a good school system. We lived in a small apartment. We didn't have a house, unfortunately. But it was a very, very good childhood. And my parents would take me down to New York City. I also had a sister, Susan. Or have a sister, Susan. And we would all go down to the Museum of Natural History. And I remember saying to my dad, "No, no, I want to go to the Museum of Natural History," on a day when he wanted to go the art museum, the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And I said, "No, no. I don't want to go see art. I want to go to the Museum of Natural History, and I want to go see Egypt." And he said, "Oh, Egypt is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art." So that convinced me to go. And that was a formative visit, I have to say. I'm not sure how old I was. I would guess 12, 11, something like that. But that was wonderful. And then I started going to the Metropolitan Museum of Art when I would take the train down into New York City, in high school and things like that. So that presaged my future. LG: What was it about Egypt that drew you? PJ: I'm not sure. I just think I found it so interesting. It was so different. And of course, there were mummies. I was a kid. That certainly drew me in. But I have to say, what finally drew me in even further was the Cloisters Museum, which is the medieval branch of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. My parents and I had tried to get there several times and, I don't know, I don't know if we couldn't find parking or it was closed and we thought it was open. There were several problems. And finally, my French, my AP French class, when I was a senior in high school, was doing a trip there because we'd been reading some medieval French writing, and I just loved the Cloisters. I just felt so at home in those cavernous halls and the artwork and everything. So, I remember when I was being interviewed to go to college, I went to Oberlin College, he asked me, "Well, what are you really interested in?" I remember saying, "The ancient classical world, ancient Egypt, medieval..." So, all this old stuff. And he was sort of startled. He said, "People don't usually say that. That's an unusual answer." And sure enough, I got into Oberlin and I couldn't believe it. They had a course in ancient architecture. They had a course, two semesters of medieval sculpture. And I was in heaven. So, I was headed on my pathway to become an art historian, clearly. Page 1 of 17 �LG: Early on. PJ: Yeah, and it was museums that did it. LG: And then you went on for graduate work? PJ: Yes. After graduating from Oberlin in 1969 with an art history major, honors in art history, I went to the University of Pennsylvania. They had given me a full scholarship and I was thrilled because at that point I was married and had a husband who needed to go to med school. So that was the other thing. We had to balance off the big cities where both of us got in with a reasonable amount of money or something. So, Penn was the clear place to go and it was a good choice. So, I went there and I got my master's and I got my PhD and I continued to work in medieval and Renaissance art, as well as early Christian art. It was terrific. Grad school always has its problems, so I probably won't mutter too much about them. Other than things like, on Friday afternoons, the all-male faculty, which of course it was all male, would go to this bar on the corner. I forget what it was called. And they would invite the male students to go with them and we females were never invited. So, the males would come out of the meeting calling everybody by their first names and we would be saying, "Dr. Mynot, Dr. Watson." And they'd be Paul and stuff to them. So, I won't grouse about that, but there was lots of gender stuff that was really irritating. On the other hand, I think I finished my dissertation and got a job before anybody else. LG: Where? PJ: At Skidmore. Yeah. I applied for a variety of jobs and I actually had several offers. But George and I... George came up with me to Saratoga Springs. We had to drive from Philadelphia. And he came with me. Let me think for a second. Yeah. At that point, I was pregnant. LG: What year was this now? PJ: Maybe … This would have been right after 1969... Oh, wait. For Skidmore, it would have been 1976. 1976, right, I started at Skidmore. So anyway, he came with me to the interview just to see what was going on and help with the driving and stuff. We had a daughter already at that point, and so he took care of her while I was doing the whole interview process. And when we finished the interview, we just looked at each other and said, yeah, this is the kind of environment we wanted. A Liberal Arts college, not a big bustling city university. We loved the idea that the Adirondacks are there. We loved the idea of bringing children up in a town like this. And I never thought I'd live on a street like this with interesting, different, lovely houses lined up with a yard. We were able to buy a house, and I think that was not because of my salary which was nothing. $11,000 was my salary at that point. But I think the promise of him being a doctor, the bank was very happy to finance our mortgage. I'm sure if he hadn't been a doctor, they never would have, because we had no money, or very little money at that point. Page 2 of 17 �So, George was done with his residency, internship and residency, and it was a perfect moment for us to come. And we both have loved living in Saratoga Springs. Yeah. Been a great place. And Skidmore's been a great place. LG: So, when you first came, what were you teaching? PJ: Do you mean in terms of courses? LG: Yes. PJ: Let's see. My first semester, I taught Romanesque Gothic art. Art and architecture. No. Maybe I started with Early Christian. Well, it's hard to know. One semester or the other. Otherwise, it was Byzantine, Early Christian art. I think it was Byzantine and Early Christian art. And I was teaching the Survey of Art History, where we shared giving the lectures over two semesters, and then had six discussion groups, three each semester. And then I was teaching, I think, a Renaissance course. It was a lot. I'd never taught any of those courses, except, I had participated in a survey with other people. So, there was a lot of prep that year. LG: Was the art history department a separate department at that point? PJ: No. And that was certainly a point of friction for us, the art historians. We were the Art Department, but that included about, I'd say, 16 tenure lines in studio art, plus quite a few part-timers, and included five art historians. So, we felt very outvoted about things. Our department meetings were all about studio art. Everything was about studio art. So, there were hostilities, but on the other hand, they were very good friends too, among the art people, and some wonderful artists who were good to see. But that was a struggle for a number of years, and we finally, gosh, I don't remember what year it was, but we finally were able to establish our own Department of Art History, separate from the Department of Art. We got a name change. First, it was the Department of Art and Art History. So, we had that for a while as a compromise: but then we really got to be our own department. LG: And who was the chair at the time? PJ: When I came, it was Earl Pardon and then it was Peter Baruzzi. And that took up quite a few of the early years. LG: And as a separate art history department, who was the chair? PJ: The first chair was Katie Hauser. I was Director of Art History. That was another thing, a job they established back when we were complaining about things and still all together. So, I was Director of Art History for nine years or something, which was very chair-like, but not with all the authority of the chair. Page 3 of 17 �LG: So, what were the responsibilities? PJ: Well, setting up the schedule, dealing with students, giving permissions, running hiring. It was a lot of the tasks of the chair, but I wasn't the one who went to the dean, necessarily, and said, "We want to hire so-and-so," and negotiate a salary. The chair negotiated the salary and stuff. LG: Were you the one who reached out to other groups outside of the department to work with them? PJ: I think I really did a lot in that sense. My colleagues in art history tended to be, I wouldn't say exactly a shyer bunch, but they stuck to their own stuff a lot more. And that's not a 100% true. But I was interested in reaching out to the other medievalists, the other people who taught Renaissance courses. For a while we were interested in setting up a Renaissance studies program. And that eventually did not happen, but that was, again, an interdisciplinary reach. Right from the beginning, I was involved in LS, liberal studies program. Not the initialLG: With your own course, or? PJ: In several ways. I wasn't in the summer group that I believe basically put LS1 and the LS program together, but I joined them in the fall. So I was on the committee that was creating LS, and then I taught in LS1 for quite a few years. I also had an LS2 course on Italy. Art and Italy, Art and Culture in Italy. I don't remember what I called it. And then, later, I had other LS courses about gender in the Renaissance and different things. So, I was very supportive. I was the first chair... When we had a committee, an LS committee, I was on it and I was the first chair of it. So that was a lot of engagement. LG: So as an LS participant, liberal studies participant, you had your own section, discussion section, plus youPJ: Yes. We had two, at least. Maybe even three. LG: You individually? PJ: Yeah. Yeah, I think two discussion groups. LG: And then you would be a lecturer for the general? PJ: Not everybody got to lecture, but I did. In fact, a number of years, I did two lectures. One on history because I guess we didn't have a historian, or the historian didn't want to do it or something. So, I did a lecture about history. I did another one about art... Creativity, I think it was called. I think every year I taught in it, I gave at least one lecture. Now, the lectures were big. You did it twice and you had half of the incoming class in each time. So those were in the theater. Those were held in the theater. So that was always a little Page 4 of 17 �daunting. But I had already been lecturing to the art history survey, which at that point had 125 people in it. So, I wasn't totally put off by a larger audience. Can I say, the best thing about LS was meeting weekly with the faculty. It was fabulous. I knew about Freud, for example, but I don't think I'd ever really read Freud in, well, I'm not reading him in German, but in the English translation, the real text. And so there I am. I'm reading Freud and I'm learning so much more. LG: And who was it that was presenting Freud? PJ: Oh, gosh. Terry Diggory, maybe. I'm not sure. SB: Sheldon? PJ: Well, Sheldon gave a wonderful lecture about personality and things, but I don't think he talked much about... Maybe he talked about Freud. I'm sorry. But in any case, it was great hearing the other faculty lecturers doing the readings. And when it came to a topic like Freud, where I didn't feel I knew all that much, I'm doing all this extra reading on Freud. So, I learned an enormous amount from doing LS1. And I also learned lecture techniques because I'd noticed something that worked really, really well, and I'd try to think, "Okay, I could do that." LG: Like what, for example? PJ: I don't know. Maybe... Boy, that's tough to remember. Probably the person, actually, who influenced me the most was not in LS. It was James Kettlewell. And he was just willing to really give information out, give details. He was really full of interesting information. But I can't say I remember what, but I remember observing people. Maybe noticing more what doesn't work. It was a terrific learning experience. And let's see. If I came in '76... Is that right? I'm trying to think when we started the LS program. Yeah. It was right about then. Well, I was there right at the beginning of LS. SB: Early '80s. Early '80s. PJ: Okay, early '80s. SB: Yeah. PJ: Okay. That makes sense to me. I'd been at Skidmore a few years, but I don't think I was tenured or anything yet. I really enjoyed my fellow faculty. And of course, I got to know people in other departments, whom I otherwise would not have. I think that was probably the greatest value of LS, liberal studies. And then, of course, the courses were interdisciplinary, which was great as far as I was concerned. Because when you're looking at images, at paintings, and sculpture, and structures, buildings, the context matters so much. The patron matters, the historical time period, the cultural sense of the time, all of those things feed into the work. And so Page 5 of 17 �having courses that encouraged me to round out the edges of my courses was great. And again, it affected everything I was teaching, not just the LS courses. LG: What role did the Tang play in your area? PJ: That was great. And again, I was on the Tang, I don't know if it was a taskforce or whatever. I was on the committee that created the Tang. So, there we are again. Long meetings. Endless meetings. LG: With whom? Do you remember? PJ: Tad Kuroda led them. Terry Diggory, wonderful Terry, was a super source for everybody in LS. Sheldon maybe was right there from the beginning. I think he probably was. Sheldon Solomon. That's, for the moment, what I'm remembering. Jim Kehl in English was very early a supporter of LS. SB: Now we're talking Tang. PJ: Tang. Oh, God. I'm sorry. SB: Yeah. PJ: So that was Tad Kuroda. That was Terry also. I'm sorry. So anyway, we had meetings and we ended up hiring. And we ended up, really, setting up the architect... Interviewing architects. We had to decide on that, what kind of things we wanted in the building. It was a lot of very interesting work. But those of us who were museum people, who were... [inaudible 00:18:39] now. Who were museum people, we were very engaged with the Tang. And then, I think it added enormously to our classes, our courses. In my parts for the survey of art history, I would try to engage the Tang. And there were some really neat ways. Boy, that dates me, doesn't it? Neat. There were some really neat ways that one could make use of contemporary art from the Tang, even when talking about medieval art or Renaissance art or something like that. LG: Did you bring your classes to the Tang to view and discuss the art? PJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then... Exactly. And we would sometimes tour the shows together or have the curator tour the show with us. And we decided to do our discussion groups at the Tang. There were two classrooms there, one of which was a smaller seminar size. So, we began doing that, again, just to get the students into the Tang and hope that they didn't feel like, "Oh, that's on the other side of campus. We don't go way over there." So, they had to come there at least once a week. Our lectures remained over in Gannett or in Emerson. But yeah, students made good use. And of course, we began having internships, having students do their work, study at the Tang. There were fellowships that were established Page 6 of 17 �for students working at the Tang. So, it was a great opportunity for those interested in museum work. And quite a few of our students have gone on in museum work. LG: Were you involved in the hiring of the early director? PJ: John Weber. I think I was. I can't remember how directly, but we did a lot of interviewing of architects and people. I think we interviewed the directors as well. That was a big job, but what a wonderful addition for Skidmore to have the Tang. LG: Did you serve on any college committees? PJ: I think I served on just about every college committee at least once, if not more. Yes. In terms of... Do you want to know special ones, or? LG: Yes. Things that made an impact on you. PJ: Yeah. Well, I think the one that was the most satisfying has to have been CAPT. Working on CAPTLG: Appointments, promotion, and tenure. PJ: Yes, thank you. LG: And sabbaticals. PJ: And sabbaticals too, at that point. It really allowed you to admire your incoming faculty when you saw what they were publishing, what they were doing, what their backgrounds were, as people came up for tenure. There were some very difficult decisions. I'm still haunted. Just the other day I was thinking about this. I'm still haunted by my vote on one decision where I probably should have gone the other way. But maybe that's the only one I feel that way about. But our work was taken so seriously by the people on the committee, as well as by the administration. You really felt like you were part of the important things going on. Should we give this person tenure? Should this person be rehired? How do we resolve this problem? How do we talk to the dean about this or that? And it was wonderful. And I was chair for a year, and that was tremendously satisfying. Really satisfying. It was the year we first had 21 people up or 18 people up. It was an enormous number, so I worked out a system of how we would do it, and it worked really well. I don't know if CAPT still uses my system, but... I think CAPT has changed a lot over the years. But I felt very proud of my ability to lead people in a way that I thought was fair and to negotiate with the Dean of Faculty about things. So that was interesting. But committees like CAFR were important. SB: Academic freedom. Page 7 of 17 �PJ: Academic freedom, sorry. Committee on Academic Freedom & Rights. I was most always on the library committee, because my office was in the library, so I felt I had a really vested interest in knowing what the library was doing. That was a great committee. It almost never met. But with the LS1 committee work and everything, I was always, always doing committee work. LG: Penny, I'm curious to know what kinds of changes over the course of your tenure did you perceive? PJ: I think for me, the biggest change I feel is the relationship of the faculty to the faculty, and the faculty to the administration. LG: For example? PJ: Well, I know this just sounds like rosy-eyed nostalgia, but honestly, when I first came and for those first, at least, I don't know, 15, 20 years, I don't want to use the word family because that's just too trite-sounding here, but we were a cooperative group looking at similar goals. LG: You're talking about faculty? PJ: Faculty. LG: Faculty. PJ: Yes, talking about the faculty here. We were comfortable, mostly, with each other. I mean, there were always some wingnuts, shall I say. But on the whole, we knew people in other departments. You'd serve on a committee and you'd meet the new psychology professor. You'd meet the art professor you didn't know real well. You'd spend time with them. And you would work together on those committees. We would have faculty meetings and largely people came to them, I think. I don't remember it being empty. It was really very crowded. And then we'd have a reception afterword with good food and good wine, and people would stay for it. Now, I know people say today, "Well, I have children. The child center closes at 5:00." And my thought is, "Yeah, I didn't even have a child center," a daycare center. In fact, that was part of women's studies. We started it and I was one of the co-chairs a couple of years in a row, where we really worked on establishing the daycare center. LG: With whom did you work on that? PJ: I'm sorry? LG: With whom did you work on that? Page 8 of 17 �PJ: Fran Hoffmann was the leader. She was number one on that. Susan Kress, Mary Lynn. Those of us particularly who had children, really. We didn't have the advantage of it, but we really wanted to. And of course, that's another whole thing, it’s that I had a baby on day three of my first year teaching at Skidmore in September of '76. And that's another one. I mean, if I can segue into that and I'll come back to changes, but this is a change too. I had various medical problems when I was in grad school and I was basically told, "If you ever want to have children, you better start now." So, we were trying to have a child for a number of years and finally became pregnant. And, of course, it was just when I was job searching and interviewing. And sure enough, I finally did get pregnant, and Joe, Joseph Howell Jolly, was born September 17th, 1976. Well, the semester started, that was a Friday, started on Wednesday the 13th. And this was my first job. I had multiple classes to teach. When I went to the chair of my department, he looked at me and saw me very pregnant and laughed. And just looked me up and down and laughed. He had no suggestions for me about anything. So, I talked a little bit to... Probably to James Kettlewell, maybe Joan Sigfried, Harry Gaugh. I don't know. I at least let them all know I was pregnant. And nobody had any suggestions for me. Nobody said anything like, "Why don't you take a few days off." Or, "I'll cover your discussion groups for you." Or, "It's okay to cancel a class. Let the students know and you can make it up later." Nobody gave me any suggestion of what to do. And I remember saying, "Well, my husband is going to stay home. He's a doctor. He'll stay home and take care of the newborn baby during the day, so that will take care of it." And that is what George did. He had a gruesome schedule where he taught 12... Rather, he worked in emergency room 12 hours overnight, a 12-hour shift during the week, and then two 12-hour shifts on the weekend when I was home. So, he was working at the emergency room while I was teaching. And we were both zonked and exhausted, but we survived. But I remember just nobody being any help whatsoever. And it just so amazed me, in my department, the women I heard from were in English. Susan Kress, Mary Lynn in American studies. All those people were saying, "How are you doing?" The secretary of the Art Department, when she said there was a meeting that next Friday, so Joe would have been a week old, and I said to her, "I am so tired. I just don't know I can come." And she said, "You go home. You get some time in bed. You don't need to come to the faculty meeting." LG: And who was this? PJ: It wasn't Denise Hughs yet. Oh, who was it? I can't think right now. At any rate, that was so nice of her. So, I went home. She told me to go home. That it was all right. But see, I didn't know it was all right to miss the faculty meeting, and I needed people to say I could have canceled a class. I didn't. I think I put one class off until the next day, and it was a small class and the students were able to do it the next day. And that was a great help. It Page 9 of 17 �was an evening class. By that time, I just needed to get into bed. So yeah, I had a crummy schedule. That was 6:30 to 8:00 o'clock or something. So, we did it the next day. But that was weird. But my larger experience at Skidmore was that people were really helpful. And it was people in other departments than my own department, quite honestly. James Kettlewell was a dear, a sweetheart, and would have done really anything I asked. But he was so involved in so many things and so scattered, it was hard to ask him to do things. Although, he did dig my car out one day from the snow, which I totally appreciated. It was totally kind of him to do that. But back to the question about changes. It felt more like a family. People communicated with each other. They talked with each other. We didn't have e-mail, so we talked. We'd pick up the phone if we needed to talk to someone. Maybe that's one of the big, big differences. It felt we had a common purpose. We cared about the students. We wanted to do things well. We talked about difficulties. The women's studies group was absolutely wonderful. I couldn't join it at first because I had this newborn baby and barely had a... And an older child. My daughter, Jenny, was five at that point and she was going to kindergarten for half a day. So, there was a lot of negotiation of home care, and George, and then other people, and stuff. But women's studies, when I had enough time to finally meet at the meetings, was just great. They were so supportive. We talked about real things like childcare. So, I became very involved with women's studies. They were just wonderful. And there were some men involved. I also did the Writing Across the Curriculum program. And again, I got to know people in the English department, Phil... What's his name? Phil... LG: Boshoff? SB: Boshoff? PJ: Boshoff. Thank you. He was running that. And a wonderful woman... Well, in any case, Susan Kress was involved again, Phyllis Roth, all those great leaders, later leaders or current. Well, not current today, but leaders in their own departments and in women's studies, those great people. LG: What about the relationship with the administration? PJ: It seemed to me much friendlier, much more open, much more that you could go and talk to people. And they'd be there after the faculty meeting. So, you could walk up to the president. There were receptions. LG: And who was the president at the time? PJ: When I came, it was Joe Palamountain. And when he saw me pregnant at the opening of my first semester, he also looked me up and down and rather laughed. And I thought, "Great." But any rate, but he accepted me. It was fine. Page 10 of 17 �Oh, and by the way, Joe was born later that afternoon on Friday. Another funny part of that story is that at the end of class, the second or third discussion group, one of the students said to me, "Professor, can I come and talk to you about some things?" And I looked at my watch and I said, "I can't. I have to go to the hospital now. My husband's picking me up because I'm going to have my baby." And I did. I had it at 5:10 that afternoon. I was teaching until 12:00, noon. So, it was all pretty crazy, but George was pretty supportive and that meant everything, so... Anyway. LG: Can you talk a little bit about your experience with the development of women's studies as a curricular program? PJ: Oh, yeah. It took some doing with the curriculum committee, although we women had infiltrated a lot of these organizations. The dean was supportive. That was Eric Weller. So, I remember him in general being supportive of women's studies. But there were others on campus who were less so, for sure. And we wanted things like, I think this was now into the '80s, things like gender-free language in the reports of the board of trustees and all official documents and things. And we got some pushback from various faculty in different departments that that was silly, we didn't need to do that. But we got it through. At this point, if you were the director or co-director of women's studies, you didn't get any time off, or any kind of credit or anything. It was very, very frustrating. But eventually, we got a position of the, probably Director of Women's Studies, I guess it was. And we hired Mary Stange as the first director, I think. Yeah, I think she was the first. So, we were in pretty good shape with the administration, I would say. And that helped a lot. We began teaching courses. We realized we had to have an intro, 101-kind of course for Women's Studies. And we put that together and we had to twist department chair's arms to let so-and-so free to teach that course, because then they weren't teaching their sociology or whatever course. Sociologists were very supportive. And it was a great department. Psychology was real supportive. History. Languages even. So, we had people who were really interested and really the program began to grow. And we got good students and good enrollments. And we established a lecture series, the Coburn Lecture series. We really became a real department, a real presence. LG: And that lecture series was meant to do what? PJ: To publicly have lectures about gender issues. I remember a wonderful one talking about medicine and gender issues. About how all the research on heart attacks and on this and on that and on that were done on male studies. There were no women included in the studies. And they began to realize, "Wow. There are women too." And women needed to be in the heart attack studies as well, because their experiences could be a little different. I don't remember who gave that lecture, but it really was eye-opening. I thought it was terrific. LG: Now, you mentioned that at first it felt like a family. Page 11 of 17 �PJ: Yeah. LG: How did it evolve? PJ: It's evolved in the last, maybe, I don't know, 20 years, 15 years, where it seems to me the faculty are just really disgruntled. I think morale is low and it wasn't quite so low back in the earlier days. I think they just feel disgruntled about maybe salaries. Although salaries have taken some improvement, thank heavens. About time. They don't want to stay. People don't want to be at meetings. I mean, the committee meetings used to be at 5:00 o'clock, 5:30. It wasn't easy for any of us, but that's when we had time to do committee meetings. Or maybe at 8:00 o'clock. And I don't know. People began just complaining and say they couldn't do that or they wouldn't do that. How are you going to get a committee of eight people together in the middle of the afternoon or the middle of the day? So, I see faculty as disgruntled. LG: Did this involve separation from administration in some way? PJ: Well, we had a wonderful, wonderful president, David Porter. Who was followed by a president that was not at all well-liked and really had some problems. I was on CAPT during that person and it was not good. LG: And that person was? PJ: Jamienne Studley. Yeah. So, there was real issues with her. I don't recall how long she stayed. Five years, maybe? Four years? I don't know. But she finally did leave and that was to the better. But again, we got in a chair, rather a president, I don't know. I have mixed feelings about him, John Berman. Maybe okay. SB: Dean. PJ: Oh, he was dean of faculty. I'm sorry. Yes, we needed a new dean. Who came after Jamie? Who was next? SB: Phil. LG: Phil. PJ: Phil. Okay. LG: Phil. Phil Glotzbach. PJ: Phil. And I think he settled things down in a lot of ways, which was good, which was helpful. That's right, I was on CAPT and we hired Phil, as I think about it. Right? But I think they're more disgruntled. I think there's more busywork. I think there's a ridiculous amount of busywork. And that seems to be true in the world at large. Filling Page 12 of 17 �out papers and doing things. E-mail. I have such mixed feelings about e-mail. It was great to handle certain things with students via e-mail. Absolutely fabulous. It really opened us up. I mean, when I came to Skidmore, what you could do would be mimeograph a note. And by the way, in our department when I came, studio art was still on the old campus downtown and that's where the secretary was. So, if the art historians needed something from the secretary, we had to drive downtown or bicycle downtown, and then come back up to campus. It was so nice when... Oh, what department was it? Math, I think. I think it was Mark who... Well, someone in math said to me, "You can use our mimeo machine when you need to mimeograph something for the faculty. You don't have to drive downtown to use the art department mimeograph." I mean, that was likeLG: You had to have a card or something? Or something special to use it? PJ: No, it was just in the secretary's office. Yeah. It was just controlled. So, I began doing my committee mimeos and student mimeos and things. Turning those out in the math department, thank heavens. So, any rate, they were... I don't know. The administration just didn't feel as close to us. It didn't feel that we were as united as we used to be. But I largely feel it was the faculty that changed. And they were disgruntled, and it's true our salaries were low. LG: Penny, what have you been doing since you retired and what year did you retire? PJ: Okay. I retired in spring. LG: Okay. Some more of your highlights? PJ: Oh, there's a bunch of them. Let me just start by saying, I really enjoyed all my years, 42 or 43 years, whatever it was. Yes, because I resigned, or I retired in 2019. The spring semester, 2019. So that was 43 years. I really enjoyed it on the whole of the students. I loved preparing lectures. I love preparing classes and discussion groups. I really enjoyed it. So, on the one hand I have to say, the job was a highlight. But more specifically, I think there were several things that really stand out. For instance, back to women's studies, which was so important for me in so many ways. I'm very proud of the daycare center being set up. Now, I was not the primary mover. Fran Hoffmann really was the person who worked more on that than anyone else. But I was involved in supporting that, involved in getting it established. I worked on it with her and others. And that was just such a wonderful addition to Skidmore. And for all of us older faculty who'd had kids and had not had the pleasure of a daycare center, this felt enormous. I think another enormous highlight has to do with the Tang. John Weber really wanted the faculty to be curating interdisciplinary exhibits. And I went to him after one of our meetings [inaudible 00:43:34] [about exhibits] where he was asking for these and saying he needed them. And I said, "I've been thinking a lot about hair in the Renaissance lately. Page 13 of 17 �The meaning of hair. What do you think about hair as a topic?" And he practically hit the ceiling in joy. He was just really excited. John was a great guy, John Weber. And so, I began thinking more about it and thinking, "This would really be fun." And I'm not always a team player. I like control. I think the idea from John would have been that I would have multiple people working with me on the show. Someone from biology, the biology of hair. And someone from, I don't know, whatever. But I didn't really want that. I wanted to be in charge. I wanted my show. So, I began working on it and showing John what I had, and it really was coming together. They began putting in the loan requests and all the things. And I feel like that was very successful. I also was adamant that I wanted the catalog to be at the show's opening. I think it is still the only show the Tang has put on where the catalog was available when the show was available. I just said, "I want these essays." So, I also edited a book of essays for the Tang. I wrote, I think, I don't know, four or five of them, but then I did involve people from other parts of the college in writing essays. So, there's some really nice ones there. Gerry Erchak, Amelia... In my own department, Amelia... Not Rosner. Well, I'm sorry, Amelia. I'm blanking on your last name right now. But several people who wrote really terrific essays, Susan Walzer, and things. And I think that show was a great success. I still have people coming up to me and saying, "Aren't you the person who did that hair show at the Tang?" And I still get e-mails from people asking me questions about hair. I still get e-mails asking me to do an interview about hair. So that's hung on, shall we say. And that was the Tang and that was great. I think another highlight was when I was awarded the Moseley lecture for my research, which is a special named lecture at Skidmore. I pulled together materials and I felt like that lecture was, in some ways, the best lecture I've ever given. It really was interesting, and I heard some great comments from people whom I respect. And I did go on to publish pieces of it and then more of it. LG: And what was the topic? PJ: The, and this is in quotes, "pregnant" end quote, Mary Magdalene. It's about Mary Magdalene the saint, the Christian saint, being symbolically pregnant, not physically pregnant by Christ, as some have claimed. The Dan Brown suggestions. But rather, she was spiritually pregnant. She was infused by the Word of God, by God, similar in a way to Mary, but did not give birth to anything other than grace and positive ideas. So, I was very proud to do that lecture and I was super pleased at how well it went. LG: Penny, you've been very active in the community and at Skidmore with other retirees since you've retired. PJ: Yes. LG: Tell us about that, if you will. Page 14 of 17 �PJ: That's been really very nice of them to keep asking me to give lectures. I've been very happy doing those. It's fun to think about topics. So, we've been doing online lectures... LG: For retirees? PJ: For retirees, for the retiree group. And most recently, I gave a tour of an exhibition I have curated up at the Hyde Collection in Glens Falls. And that's been my biggest activity since I retired. Of course, retirement is broken into by the pandemic, and travel plans were missed and getting to museums was missed and all kinds of things were slowed down. This exhibit should have been done earlier, but it was held up for a whole bunch of reasons. In any case, it opened this fall and just closed January 5th. This is an exhibition about childhood in Italy, 1400 to 1500. It's called Growing Up in Renaissance Italy, Childhood in Italy 14... I must have the title wrong. I can't believe it. Growing Up in Renaissance Italy. I don't know, any rate, Childhood From 1400 to 1600. It was a terrific topic to work on. It's a topic of interest to a huge number of scholars right now, huge amount of scholarship on childhood in Italy, specifically in Florence also, which was my focus. So, I just had the fun of reading all kinds of things I hadn't read before, from history and anthropology and different areas, about childhood. It was really a terrific thing to work on. And then putting it up this fall, having it all come to fruition, I've also heard really positive feedback from a number of people about it. So, I've been very pleased. And it really kept me busy all fall because I gave so many tours of the exhibition. I was over there a lot, but I couldn't go for the de-installing. I thought, "I'll be just too sad, seeing them take everything down and crate it up." So, I avoided that this past week. LG: Anything else we should add that we haven't asked you about? PJ: Travel. One of the great things of my job is, I really had to travel. I had to go to Italy. I had to go to Belgium, Netherlands, France, England, Germany, Spain, all these great places. Because it was so important to see and experience the things you talk about. So, Skidmore has been very supportive of that. I have to say, the faculty research grants helped enormously with all that. LG: Those were the faculty research grants while you were still an active faculty member or as a retiree? PJ: When I was active. And I also have gotten a couple of them since I retired, which has been very generous of Skidmore. LG: From the... That's thePJ: The retirementLG: ...retiree group- Page 15 of 17 �PJ: ...group. Right. LG: ...that has funded you. PJ: Yes. Right. And that's for faculty and staff can be funded. So, they funded some of my travel when I was working on the show and some other elements. So that was terrific. LG: Those grants don't come from the College. Those come from the Retiree Initiative Planning Group. PJ: Okay. Have to hear more about that at some point. Again, I don't know. That was support from Skidmore. I do remember once going into Eric, because on a sabbaticalLG: Eric Weller? PJ: Eric Weller, Dean of Faculty. And I was taking a long and very expensive trip, and I asked him was there any chance he could give me more money, because I really needed to do this for the, I don't know, the book or something I was working on. And he did. I mean, he gave me a chunk of change. Which was really incredibly helpful at the time. My husband and I had divorced, and so my income was dramatically different. That was very helpful. And my second husband, Jay Rogoff, has been wonderful because he's been able to take time to travel with me. George almost never could, because of his job. But Jay is great in helping. LG: Anything else we should cover? Well, I want to thank you ever so much for participating in this project. PJ: You're most welcome, Lynne and Sue, most welcome. Wish you luck with it. Page 16 of 17 �Page 17 of 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Skidmore College Retirees Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lynne Gelber Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Penny Jolly Location The location of the interview Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 52:32 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Sue Bender Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Penny Jolly Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 17th, 2025 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Skidmore Saratoga Memory Project Description An account of the resource Penny Jolly grew up in the greater New York City area where she was very influenced by museums in the city. After undergraduate study at Oberlin and graduate degrees from the University of Pennsylvania, Penny arrived at Skidmore in 1976 where she taught courses in art history, especially Renaissance art and became Director of Art History as well as an active member of the Liberal Studies program and the Women’s Studies major. In this interview she discusses the separation of art history from studio art as separate departments, the faculty committee system, the creation of the Skidmore Daycare Center, and evolving relations between faculty and administration. Penny retired from the faculty in 2019. Language A language of the resource English (en) Subject The topic of the resource Retiree Oral History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/edee9102eb2a10690fc53e3cffcb505e.jpg f0b4d8158935ce34a506d36a4bfd7aeb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mapping Saratoga Springs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1700- Map Cartographic document Creator - Individual Name of the person or people responsible for creating the item. Anthony, Charles Creator - Organization Company, government agency, or other organization responsible for creating the item (the publisher should not be listed again here unless the same organization had a role other than that of publisher in sponsoring or creating the map). State Reservation Commission Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 1915 Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 1915 Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. January 1915 Date Published (Numeric) Date the item was printed. This will be set as a date field, accommodating only numbers. The field will be able to handle single dates or date ranges. This will not display, but will be indexed and searchable. 1915 Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. This map is part of a three map series that the State Reservation Commission included in their 6th Annual Report to communicate what lands they had acquired for planning future park development and springs conservation. This map focuses on connection between the State Park and downtown. Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Saratoga Room, Saratoga Springs Public Library Scope Tiered geographical location (for example: United States, New York State, Saratoga County, Saratoga Springs, Congress Park). This field is here for two reasons: first, to present, at its narrowest level, the scope of the entire item (in other words, not every place name has to be listed here). Second, this field will allow for accurate and helpful narrowing and broadening of geographic searches. City Type For Maps: This subject field describes the purpose of the map. This is a controlled-vocabulary field using terms developed for this project. It is important to note that Map Theme and Map Type are not hierarchical, thus it is possible to have the two fields overlap or even duplicate each other. In determining the purpose of the map, the cataloger should consider the publisher, and, (if known) original use of the map. For example, a map that shows a wide variety of information might be a candidate for General in the map_type field, however, if it was prepared by the state geologist and contains, in addition to everything else, substantial information about the geology and topography of the state, it would be classified as a Geological map. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Color maps Railroad map Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Environment and Conservation Subject - Details This subject field describes the amount of detail in a map. For maps: (or layers) included on the map itself. This field might denote that the map includes information about, for example, Mountains, Railroads, Soundings, Elevation, or Population. These are controlled-vocabulary terms developed locally. The cataloger should be generous in assigning these terms -- even if only one canal is visible on the map, it should receive a "Canals" subject in this layer. Some of these terms are less specific than others and may warrant expansion in the Abstract field. For example, the "Businesses" term might be included here while the Abstract notes that the map shows mills and stores. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Boston and Maine Railroad (B&M Railroad) Compass rose Delaware and Hudson Railroad Corporation (D &H, R.R.) Hudson Valley R.R. (N.Y.) Subject - Geographic Library of Congress subject headings. For maps: for major geographic locations depicted on the map, followed, in nearly every case, by the "Maps" genre subheading. (For example, "Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) -- Maps.") This field will be especially important when the records from this collection are incorporated into larger databases and catalogs. Congress Park (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) High Rock Park (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Geyser Park (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Place of Publication The city (and if necessary) state or country of publication. Saratoga Springs, N.Y. Scale The scale of the item (if known) 1600'= 1" Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Deirdre Schiff Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 3/9/2015 Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 21 x 42 cm. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Map of a part of Saratoga Springs made by the State Reservation Commission under the direction of the Consulting Engineer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 1915 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. 6th Annual State Reservation Commission Report Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony, Charles Ziegler, J. map https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a8af1600f1e8966fd246ec8f1530a7a3.jpg 8a5cfee6b16986599eb8bbd3524b8ecd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mapping Saratoga Springs Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1700- Map Cartographic document Creator - Individual Name of the person or people responsible for creating the item. Anthony, Charles Creator - Organization Company, government agency, or other organization responsible for creating the item (the publisher should not be listed again here unless the same organization had a role other than that of publisher in sponsoring or creating the map). State Reservation Commission Date Depicted (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the content date field that will display. 1915 Date Depicted (Numeric) Date that the information on the item depicts. In many cases, this will be the same date as that in the date field, but there will be exceptions. For example, a historical map drawnin 1890 might show Saratoga Springs as it was in 1820. Or, the information on the map itself might include detailed information that enables us to extrapolate a date, for example, "based on a survey done in 1841." Many State Archives map catalog records refer to this as the "situation date." 1915 Date Published (Display) Text version of the date field -- can handle non-numeric characters (ca. 1850s, [1844]). This is the date field that will display. January 1915 Date Published (Numeric) Date the item was printed. This will be set as a date field, accommodating only numbers. The field will be able to handle single dates or date ranges. This will not display, but will be indexed and searchable. 1915 Caption This field will include transcriptions of text that appears on or around the item, at the discretion of the cataloger. It should include relevant bibliographic information that is not given in the title, for example, "Top of map: 'EXAMPLE NEEDED' Publisher and printer information might also be included in this field: "EXAMPLE NEEDED.'" Note that the location of the printed text is given in the field itself and that the caption information is always included in quotes. Bottom left: "Drawn by Ziegler, traced by Ziegler" Abstract (& Historical Note) Natural language description of the map itself, providing a general summary of the map and noting significant features. This is the place to introduce keywords and proper names that might be of interest to researchers, but do not warrant a separate subject heading of their own. Inset maps should also be described here, with their full titles given. Whenever historical or explanatory information is available, it should be included here as well. This includes information about items or events that are larger than just the map itself; for example, information about cartographers, a description of the map's historical significance (for example, "This is the first printed map of Saratoga Springs"), notes on the laws leading to a map's creation, descriptions of changes in state or county lines, information about the organization that created the map, how often maps were updated, and information about the map's creation and publication. Many State Archives maps have historical information in the catalog record -- that should be captured in this field. This map is part of a three map series that the State Reservation Commission included in their 6th Annual Report to communicate what lands they had acquired for planning future park development and springs conservation. This map focuses on the areas to become the State Park: Geyser and Lincoln Parks. Repository Name of the repository that holds the original item. Saratoga Room, Saratoga Springs Public Library Scope Tiered geographical location (for example: United States, New York State, Saratoga County, Saratoga Springs, Congress Park). This field is here for two reasons: first, to present, at its narrowest level, the scope of the entire item (in other words, not every place name has to be listed here). Second, this field will allow for accurate and helpful narrowing and broadening of geographic searches. Neighborhood/District Type For Maps: This subject field describes the purpose of the map. This is a controlled-vocabulary field using terms developed for this project. It is important to note that Map Theme and Map Type are not hierarchical, thus it is possible to have the two fields overlap or even duplicate each other. In determining the purpose of the map, the cataloger should consider the publisher, and, (if known) original use of the map. For example, a map that shows a wide variety of information might be a candidate for General in the map_type field, however, if it was prepared by the state geologist and contains, in addition to everything else, substantial information about the geology and topography of the state, it would be classified as a Geological map. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Color maps Theme For browsing purposes, we are borrowing and adapting themes from the Library of Congress's American Memory project. Environment and Conservation Subject - Details This subject field describes the amount of detail in a map. For maps: (or layers) included on the map itself. This field might denote that the map includes information about, for example, Mountains, Railroads, Soundings, Elevation, or Population. These are controlled-vocabulary terms developed locally. The cataloger should be generous in assigning these terms -- even if only one canal is visible on the map, it should receive a "Canals" subject in this layer. Some of these terms are less specific than others and may warrant expansion in the Abstract field. For example, the "Businesses" term might be included here while the Abstract notes that the map shows mills and stores. Multiple terms can be used in this field. Compass rose Delaware and Hudson Railroad Corporation (D &H, R.R.) Hudson Valley R.R. (N.Y.) Subject - Geographic Library of Congress subject headings. For maps: for major geographic locations depicted on the map, followed, in nearly every case, by the "Maps" genre subheading. (For example, "Saratoga Springs (N.Y.) -- Maps.") This field will be especially important when the records from this collection are incorporated into larger databases and catalogs. Geyser Lake (N.Y. : Lake) Geyser Park (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Geyser Creek (Saratoga Springs, N.Y.) Saratoga Springs (N.Y.)--Corporation Line Place of Publication The city (and if necessary) state or country of publication. Saratoga Springs, N.Y. Scale The scale of the item (if known) 200'= 1" Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Deirdre Schiff Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 3/9/2015 Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 81 x 44 cm. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Map of Geyser and Lincoln Parks with Pine Promenades connecting made by the State Reservation Commission under the direction of the Consulting Engineer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 1915 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. 6th Annual State Reservation Commission Report Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony, Charles Ziegler, J. map https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b1334f91b2f974db3a8fada3bf57ad48.jpg baaf515533d48776e4af5a6332f28efb https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/cc3c2b3369aa423f6aceec20e4e8305e.jpg 6d60cd007cf5cabc1c54254f5a511398 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b99467499816da75a68ce05fb66d1c6b.jpg 68d0b96072bf1047e4fe3bf954958ec9 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/381e06813775bdef27ec6f3d1a479018.jpg 6bfd07341de1311558161df1cd75e0df Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adult and Senior Center of Saratoga Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sixty Years Young Planning Meeting Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 26, 2015 Description An account of the resource Adult and Senior Center director Lois Celeste, Dee Sarno, Crystal Moore (Social Work), Jordana Dym (MDOCS/History) and others meet to discuss the memory project and planning for a gala in November 2015. https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/02e3def063593fb2bd2711ce243dd60a.png 2a0e907ea201221848458e5da86349e4 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1ac21893e7e00a856549fa7d24704db4.png fb957750292eaad629701f95e49e77a7 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/24f8140c153cf0027a15878f23939476.png a82a92e263bc6e20a29aaefba1f2fe5b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga County Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Mattie Saulnier Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit 5/5/21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Excerpts from the 1918 Automobile Journal Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 10, 1918 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. The Automobile Journal Description An account of the resource Some experts from the journal which pertain to Saratoga County Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mattie Saulnier automobile journal Mohawk transportation