1 40 10 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/86371536d339028b913632e8d3c32e8f.png 3bfbc672f3dd417b7c45e1d284e4a15c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource In Unity There Is Strength Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d743e91f9566c6e55b0cba610add53b7.jpeg 3d98fc62ec314988c78ca1a1243bc67d https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1084882b66cbd761290b7a1661ee407e.mp3 b46009ebfd325f4e5f8f7e8d7dd1f208 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/35b50e42c3c9f851b0c80862caa0a45c.pdf 7bbf333574eea983b37554a49861dde9 PDF Text Text Narrator: Eileen Sperry Interviewer: Sophia Delohery Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: April 7, 2023 Sophia [00:00:01] Today's date is April 7th, 2023. My name is Sophia Delohery. Eileen [00:00:11] I'm Eileen Sperry. Sophia [00:00:12] And here we go. So, Eileen, can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up? Eileen [00:00:18] I grew up in upstate New York. I'm an upstate New York native. I grew up in a small kind of rural farming town called Harpursville, which is about halfway between Oneonta and Binghamton. Sophia [00:00:29] Oh, cool. Sophia [00:00:30] That's awesome. And can you tell me a little bit about where you, just your school experience, like, beginning school and then secondary school. Eileen [00:00:41] Mm-hm. Started school in a sort of more suburban school district. Then my family had moved out to Harpursville, and so I went to this, the local high school all the way through the local public school. It's a really small school district, and so it was really intimate. My graduating class was sixty-three people, many of whom I'm still friends with, right. So it was a very small, kind of tight knit community growing up. And I went there all the way through high school. I went to NYU for my undergrad. I was, I had had enough of living in a small kind of rural town, and I, like, desperately wanted to get out and live in the city and sort of be in a big school environment. So I moved to New York and I went to NYU. Sophia [00:01:29] Yeah, that's definitely a big transition. Eileen [00:01:31] Yeah. Sophia [00:01:33] That's nice that you had like a good community, though. Uh, but did you find that going to NYU, like, changed that for you? Like, was it easy to find community there as well? Eileen [00:01:44] It was. I gravitated towards other people who I think had similar experiences like my, my kind of close group of friends ended up becoming, you know, people who had been in a similar place of like they had grown up in smaller schools or they had grown up working class. They had grown up in, in poorer communities who like all like me, really loved being in the city and really loved being at the school, but who also felt moments of estrangement, like not part of the kind of rich kid crowd or the private school crowd, like feeling both belonging and a kind of sense of being an outsider. Sophia [00:02:24] Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's, that's an experience that a lot of people go through making that transition, and it's nice that you guys, like, gravitated towards each other then to find that community. Eileen [00:02:35] Yeah. �Eileen [00:02:36] Yeah. I think that that was that was one of the things that really sustained me. Sophia [00:02:39] Yeah, that makes sense. And so what were you studying at school? Eileen [00:02:45] I was studying, I initially thought that I was going to be a major in a program that NYU had at the time called Language and Mind, which was a combination of linguistics and psychology and neuro linguistics. And then I remember that I was not great at math, and it was a lot of math. And I had taken an English class my freshman year as well, and I fell in love with the English major. And so I declared early on and I stayed an English major for the rest of my time there I minored in linguistics. I had a real love for the linguistics program, just not so much the psych in the stats and the hard science. Yeah. Sophia [00:03:21] Yeah, that's very valid. So did you go to school at any place post-NYU? Eileen [00:03:29] Mm-hm, I went from NYU, I did my master's degree in English at Binghamton University, and then I did my Ph.D. at Stony Brook University out on Long Island. Sophia [00:03:39] Oh, nice. So a lot of staying in, like, at least the New York state. Eileen [00:03:44] Yeah. You know, my, my now husband, my boyfriend at the time, he and I started dating in high school, and we both went to separate colleges, but we sort of stayed in the same geographical area as a way of staying connected to one another. I still had really close connections to my community and to my family, and I sort of never was possessed with the desire to, like, run away to California or move across the country. I wanted to stay relatively close. I also had a recurring summer job at a summer camp back near where I grew up, and so I would go back there for the summers, so it was nice to be able to stay relatively close. Sophia [00:04:19] Yeah. Sophia [00:04:20] So it sounds like you are someone who's, like, really rooted in community then, like, it seems like you've, like, sought that out in the different places you've gone. Eileen [00:04:30] Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot recently, actually. That I think, especially from those early moments in high school that we, you know, it was not I never had a schooling experience growing up where you were always sort of encountering new communities. You know, I had heard from friends who had gone to bigger schools that, you know, you could sort of abandon one friend group and find another one or you were transitioning schools. And for us, it was the same. It was the same people the whole way through. And so I became really attached to these ideas of, like, forming deep bonds and deep community. And then that has extended, I think, to a lot of other places in my life that I've, like, privileged forming these big communities and sort of these deep relationships. Sophia [00:05:10] Yeah, that's interesting as you kind of move into the topic of labor organizing, I think community comes up a lot when people talk about that kind of stuff. Eileen [00:05:18] Yeah. �Sophia [00:05:20] But kind of in that same vein, was there anything in your, like, schooling or growing up experience that kind of portended, like, an interest in labor organizing for you? Eileen [00:05:30] My, my freshman year at NYU, we arrived. I had been there maybe four or five weeks, and the graduate students began a union campaign. They had filed for unionization and they were working towards, I believe at the time they were working towards their first bargaining agreement. And so they went on strike. And so many of my classes, because it was a big university, many of my classes were taught by graduate students or I was in a big lecture and the recitation session was taught by a graduate student and they all went on strike. And many of my professors were incredibly supportive of their graduate students and so refused to cross picket lines. And so as a freshman, you know, I had one class that moved to like the Marxist community school organizing space like halfway across Manhattan. So like every week I had to, like, grab my backpack and trek twenty blocks away to go to class. But it was this really early exposure to like labor in academia, right? Like seeing and hearing the graduate students say really clearly, I love my job, I love the work that I do, I love my students, but I have to be able to, to live here. I have to build to support myself and have a life, and that's equally important. And seeing the solidarity from other professors who were saying like, yes, our graduate students are important. They're one of the things that make this university work. It doesn't work without them. We have to be in support of them. And so seeing how much that was an early reminder or an early moment for me, where it became really clear the kinds of work that were necessary for a university to function and the way that, like, different elements, had to come together to support the fight for fair working conditions. Sophia [00:07:15] Yeah, wow, what a cool, like, experience to have, right going into college too. Eileen [00:07:19] Yeah. Sophia [00:07:19] That sounds awesome. Eileen [00:07:23] My dad pulled the most dad move ever and he was like, I'm just you have to go to -- I'm going to email the college president. And I was like, Dad, you cannot email the college. And he did. And he, like, had several emails with the college president about like labor rights. Sophia [00:07:36] Oh wow, that's awesome. Eileen [00:07:37] It was really sweet. Sophia [00:07:38] So are your parents kind of interested in this as well? Eileen [00:07:42] Yeah, to a lesser extent. My mom was a public school teacher as well growing up. My mom was a public school English teacher and so she was always a teacher's union member. She was never really involved on the organizing end. But I always remember being kind of conscious of that as just like an element of her job or that she was tapped into this bigger community. Sophia [00:08:00] Yeah, that makes sense. The teachers union, I think like starts a lot of stuff for a lot of people, like growing up around that. �Eileen [00:08:06] Yeah. Sophia [00:08:08] So kind of shifting this to, to the Skidmore experience, can you tell us a little bit about the non tenure track faculty union just and your involvement with it so far? Eileen [00:08:22] Sure. I began working here part time last year. I had been at the College of Saint Rose before that and Saint Rose during, during the period of COVID, although it sort of had its roots much furtherbefore that. They had a mass faculty layoff. They laid off thirty-three tenure track faculty, and then they let go of eight contingent faculty members. And I was one of the contingent faculty members. I had been there for four or five years on this rotating one year contract, and I always knew that it was not a secure contract, but I had become part of the department. I had, you know, built relationships, built community there. And my department fought really hard to save my position and just just couldn't. Right. Like the tide had turned. And so I arrived at Skidmore in this part time position because I had been job hunting. I had found some other work. I was sort of cobbling things together. But I had just come off this experience of, of a layoff, of seeing what happened at a college that, like, was unionized and still had a really tough set of working conditions for many of its faculty, was in terrible financial straits. And so I was at this point in my professional life where I was thinking about, like, what's the kind of security that I want? What are the sorts of things that I want to work for? What's the kind of working environment that I want to choose for myself going forward? And I had friends already in the English department through just, like, local research groups and other connections. And as I arrived, I started talking with some of the other contingent faculty members about some of the things that were going on and was able to find out that there was this kind of growing union movement. And I was enthusiastically, like, sign me up, give me work to do, like, I want to help out however I can. It helped that, you know, the organizing process was happening in conjunction with SEIU, which is the union that I had been part of at Saint Rose. And so I knew Sean Collins, the lead organizer. I knew him through other, other interactions, and I liked working with him. And so I was just sort of like enthusiastic to, to dive in and contribute. Sophia [00:10:39] Yeah, that makes sense. So like your, your previous job experience kind of propelled you into this current union experience and motivated you. Eileen [00:10:52] Mm-hm. Sophia [00:10:52] Yeah. Can you speak a little bit more to like, how how it feels to be on that, like, kind of tenuous contract and be working and how it affects, like, job experience and performance. Eileen [00:11:03] Yeah. From a really concrete standpoint, the academic job market requires a lot of work to sort of be on the market, you sort of have to prepare a set of materials every year. This can be upwards of, you know, fifty pages altogether of cover letters and syllabi and teaching statements and course evaluations and diversity statements and all these sorts of things. And so maintaining a current dossier of materials takes a lot of work. It takes a couple of weeks every summer. Then the application process. Applications would go up every fall. You'd spend time combing the listings, submitting things, interviewing, doing campus visits, making all these decisions. And all of that time was time that I wasn't spending on teaching or wasn't spending on students, right? I would find myself sort of saying no to things that I really wanted to be doing because I needed to sort of always have one foot out the door. It also affected the way that I was making decisions about the kinds of things that I would teach. Right? I was sort of �not in a position to be as experimental as maybe I would want to be, or that I was thinking about, like, how to build a CV that, like, would make me attractive to other jobs rather than, like, allow me to excel at the job that I had. And so that, just the time spent on being kind of one foot out the door, having to always sort of search for other jobs and the cognitive load of like always sort of thinking elsewhere and not thinking here. Both of those have affected in previous positions my ability to just like kind of be at home in a place and really dedicate myself to the students that are in front of me. Sophia [00:12:46] Yeah. And kind of circling back to the community aspect, like, it, it just kind of alienates a whole group of people working here who are supposed to be a part of the community and helping, like, build it and everything to yeah, to have them feel so unsettled the whole time while they're working here. Eileen [00:13:05] And I think that that distinction is often, you know, it's not visible to students because these job distinctions are sometimes they're not really clear and students don't know if I'm here permanently or on a temporary contract. And so, you know. This past year, I've had students who have asked me to serve as their advisor, and I can't, you know, I can't in good conscience say yes because I might not be here next year. I can't sort of support them all the way through to degree completion. I don't know if I will be a stable presence for them. And so it prevents me from building those kind of long term mentoring relationships as well. Sophia [00:13:41] Yeah, that makes so much sense. And that's interesting to, to move into, I just want to ask you what you think like the student perception of the union has been or your experience, like, with what questions students have been asking you. Do you feel like they're kind of aware of what's going on? Eileen [00:14:02] I think they're becoming aware. I think that it's something that has, you know, the last few years have been this really incredible time for labor organizing. I think that students are seeing the ways that unionization can affect jobs at every different level. Right. The faculty are attempting to unionize or have unionized. But also the local Starbucks is unionizing or, you know, the Trader Joe's is unionizing, thinking about how this is a tool for workers kind of across the spectrum. I think that has also helped students understand that maybe the popular perception of, like, what a professor is and what that lifestyle or job security looks like that that's not actually the reality for most of their professors. My, I predominantly teach freshman writing and these are often themed courses. And one of the themes that I use that I taught this past year was on the philosophies and economies of higher education. So, like, how does college work? How do our decisions about what college means to us, how are they shaped by our desire for money, for wealth, for happiness, for knowledge? And one of the things that came up in that class was this conversation about, you know, what do you think professors are making? What kind of class position do you think professors are holding? And I think a lot of students assume, because this was the case, you know, twenty years ago, forty years ago, that all of their professors are, like, making six figures and, like, own their own homes and are these, like very comfortable middle class lifestyles when that's not necessarily the case anymore. Sophia [00:15:34] Yeah, that must be that must have been a crazy conversation to have because yeah, I'm sure a honestly me before kind of getting more involved in this world and learning more about it, I also think I safely assume that, like, oh, my professors are definitely just making, like, stable money, stable jobs. They all kind of are on the same, like, professor is the one position you can be in kind of thing. And yeah, learning more �about this faculty union has been really interesting. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more to, like, what stage the, the union is at now. Eileen [00:16:14] We're currently in the negotiating process for our first collective bargaining agreement, which is, it's a really exciting place to be because it's just, like, a place of possibility. But so the election happened this past fall. The majority of non tenure track faculty voted in favor of unionizing. And so now I'm on the negotiating committee, along with several other faculty across departments, across different job roles. And we're in the process of putting together our bargaining proposals. So, you know, what do we want our contract to look like? What are the sorts of things that we want as terms of our employment and bringing those to the college to then negotiate with college representation about, like, okay, what can we make happen? What can we both agree to? What can we put in stone in the language of the bargaining agreement? Sophia [00:17:03] Yeah, wow, that's very cool. Eileen [00:17:05] Yeah, I, we, I, in fact, just before this, I spent an hour on a Zoom working meeting to look at some language about benefits and, like, who has access to health care, which of our faculty have had access to health care. What would it look like to try and widen that scope a little bit more to include maybe part time faculty or other faculty in that? Sophia [00:17:25] Yeah. And just for the record, on the, on the recording, if you could talk a bit about like what the main goals are of the union. Eileen [00:17:38] Through the organizing conversations and through all of the other conversations we've had with the full bargaining unit,that's all the faculty who are members of our new union, a couple of things have come up consistently.So one of them is, is compensation, especially for part time faculty. Part time faculty make a pretty low rate of pay and aren't eligible for a lot of really core benefits. And so increasing their compensation. For full time faculty, it's increasing job security. That's been one of the, one of the primary goals is that we have a system right now that has lots of people who are on these rotating one year or two year contracts who are in that position that I was describing earlier. They're never sort of really secure. The college has kinds of contracts that offer that sort of security for non tenure track faculty. But they haven't been extended to a lot of the faculty who are currently here. So we're fighting to create that kind of stability so that professors can be here and can be fully present for their students. And then finally, it's protecting the benefits that people have already that they really love. The college right now has a great system of benefits for full time faculty members, and a lot of faculty rely on them. And so we want to make sure that those are enshrined in the bargaining language, to make sure that they can never go away or they can't go away without the college negotiating. That's one of the things I think I have brought with me from previous job experience is that, like, knowing that even if you feel, like, you've got a great relationship with the administration, even if things feel like they're going great, feeling like things won't change isn't protection to say that they can't change. And so putting things in the bargaining language means they can't change. And so it's been a priority to get things that people really love about their jobs just memorialized and safe. Sophia [00:19:21] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And kind of going, following that vein of, how do you feel like the administration response has been to the union in terms of like supportive, non supportive? �Eileen [00:19:37] I think it has been, it's been neutral to supportive so far. I've been, I've been pleasantly surprised by how how things have been going. I will say at previous institutions, I have seen things rise to a level of, like, real aggression and real anger. And so far, that hasn't been the case. I think that also Skidmore has recognized that this is something that is core to its value system. At Skidmore one of the things that I've been so impressed with arriving here and that seems to really define the community, is a real dedication to, like, social justice and an awareness of, like, inequality of power in the world and on campus. And frankly, I think if the college wants to continue saying that it supports those values, it has to sort of be open to improving working conditions here on this campus. Sophia [00:20:32] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. In that same kind of question, how has the support been from the tenured faculty or what has been kind of their involvement being like adjacent to this whole thing? Eileen [00:20:50] I've had nothing but supportive conversations with tenure track faculty. It's been really great. I think that they recognize that the work of the whole faculty body is necessary, that we are doing the same kinds of work, that we are supporting students in the same way, and that that labor is equal to the kinds of labor that they are putting into the classroom. They know how hard it is to, to make the ship run. And so they they see that. I also think that right now the academic job market is, is really, really poor. Right. That there are hundreds of Ph.D. holders or hundreds of eligible and suitable candidates for every position that gets listed. And a lot of them were also on the job market for many years, or a lot of them have also had a history of being a graduate student instructor or being an adjunct instructor or being a contingent instructor. And so I think increasingly other professors are recognizing that, like, the difference between these levels of faculties is disappearing, like that we are we are all bringing the same credentials to the table and that we could very easily be in one another's place. And so I think that that has increased this, the sense of solidarity. Sophia [00:22:03] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like things could, things could change. It's yeah, kind of luck of the draw in that way. What would you say the biggest challenges to the union are at this time? Eileen [00:22:20] I think one of the big challenges is, is building the kind of community and solidarity across departments and disciplines. You know, we had, it was a really great experience. I was working on some bargaining demands with a faculty member in in the Chemistry department. And we became immediately obvious that, like, neither of us understood how the other person's job worked, right? Like, that we were, our contracts looked different. The way we accounted for our work looked different. And then you fold in somebody from music who's an instructor who, like, accounts for their labor and their work and their relationship with students in totally other ways. And so finding the space to really understand the kinds of work that we all do, like, how our jobs look kind of different on the surface, and then using those differences to actually find the core values of, like, what are the things that we share? What are the ways like what are the ways that we can build common goals out of those differences? That's something that requires a lot of trust. It requires a lot of relationship building. It requires a lot of time. So I think that that's been a big challenge. But I also think that that will ultimately be one of the big strengths. Sophia [00:23:31] Yeah. Like a cool part of it that just takes so much work. Eileen [00:23:35] Yeah. �Sophia [00:23:36] So, yeah. Do you think, I mean, hopefully the union just will build strength over time through, like, the course of creating those bonds and community. Eileen [00:23:44] Yeah. And I also think that this, the process of the first bargaining agreement is such a difficult one, but can be such a rewarding one. One of the other things that has been notable is that this is, it's sort of on generational lines, but not entirely, but that for younger professors, it's much more likely that they would have gone to graduate school and been in a graduate student union. Those have been increasing over the last ten, twenty years. And so we have one part of the population who has a long history of being unionized and knows what that kind of contract feels like, what it means to be part of a union, what that experience would look like. And then you may have another portion of the faculty who have never been a unionized worker before, like they've never been in a faculty union that has never crossed their mind. And so the process of sort of education in all of this is another, it's another struggle, but it's also going to be another kind of deeply rewarding thing that these people, you know, who've never been a union member, who've never been under a collective bargaining agreement, I think have a lot of fear of the unknown. But I'm excited to, like, that sort of motivates me even more of, like, you know, we have to secure a really strong bargaining agreement to sort of show people what we can do when we all work together for something like this. Sophia [00:25:05] Yeah, I think that's one of the classic, uh, like attributes of the union process is, like, it is such a difficult process, but, like, ultimately such a rewarding process. Eileen [00:25:15] Yeah. Sophia [00:25:15] I think that's what, like, a lot of people feel about it. And kind of in that same vein, what support would you say that the union needs the most from, from like the student body, from the Skidmore community at large? Eileen [00:25:35] Oh, that’s a great question. I mean, I think the support of recognizing, recognizing the work that's going into it, like knowing that your faculty are working towards this and recognizing the labor that people are putting in, that has been a huge, that's always a huge morale boost for me when we've done like outreach events or we've been out on campus and students come by and they're like, this is great. Like, you know, we're so happy to see this. Like, well, like, let us know how we can support you, even if that's like putting a sticker on your water bottle, wearing a pin around campus. Like, it's a good way to know that the community is behind you. That makes a huge difference. And I think learning more about the conditions of, of employment, the conditions of, like, the place that you are living, right, that being at college is this weird place, you know, you're sort of, you're a customer, but also a community member and also a student here, all these things. But taking the opportunity to sort of learn the details of like how the community that you're in, how it's working and the kinds of work that make it possible. Sophia [00:26:35] Yeah. I mean, and considering that you kind of initially were drawn to this kind of work in college, like, would you say this is an important time for, like, people to start learning about it now? Eileen [00:26:47] Absolutely. One of the tenure track faculty who'd supported us when we sort of declared the, when we filed our cards, when we had declared that the, that the vote was going to be scheduled, we held a little rally and she got up and said something that �has, like, stuck with me of, like, one of the things that you all are doing that is such a value here is that you're showing students what it means to, like, live into a set of values, to, like, to, to recognize something in the world that you can try and make better and, like, try and do that. And I've thought about that a lot over the past year of, like, that, that that's a responsibility that we have as organizers, but also as educators to, like, show students what it means to, to sort of commit to a value and to try to bring that into reality. Sophia [00:27:34] Yeah, that's so interesting to be, like, considering your role as a union member, but also an educator at the same time. Like, education based unions are so, like, special in that way. That's incredible. Is there anything else you wanted to, like, add or explain that you feel like we missed? Eileen [00:27:53] No, I think that that covers it. Sophia [00:27:55] Awesome. Sophia [00:27:56] Well, thank you so much for coming in today. This has been a great interview. Eileen [00:27:59] You're so welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sophie Delohery '25 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eileen Sperry Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:59 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 29, 2023 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eileen Sperry Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 7, 2023 Description An account of the resource Eileen Sperry holds a PhD in English from Stony Brook University. She teaches composition and early modern English literature, and her research specializes in poetry and disability studies. She’s been a member of the CWA 1104 Graduate Student Employees Union—Stony Brook chapter, United University Professions—Albany and Empire State chapters, and SEIU Faculty Forward—Saint Rose and Skidmore chapters. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/52ab92723c704591b1b834cc0ebbee47.jpeg ab73818b63105b44886d450727b70cf6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/e8481d084fef3d59fdb03354eb3463b3.jpeg 3536f85970f0e045b3335dd49a0ecc5f https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/2be9343d515033e25fc2ceef534d1813.m4a d3581ed90a836be3d8fd3ecbc994f6f5 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b8c3aa18d4c60506b950276266241bb1.pdf 30eb502c3117fbb688293acf6f5b06f5 PDF Text Text Narrators: Lynne Mattinson and Stuart Whipple Interviewers: Conrad Kassin ’24 and Giovanni Jacobelli ‘24 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: Conrad Kassin [00:00:00] Okay. Recording, recording. So thank you so much for both of you guys for coming today. As you guys know, this is for our American labor history class. We'll be conducting oral history interviews based on labor in the Saratoga area. These interviews will be compiled with others, which will be archived for the public for future use and to look back upon. So today, me and Giovanni, my name is Conrad. We'll be asking questions. Giovanni, do you want to start asking the first question? GIovanni Jacobelli [00:00:27] Yes. So when, you can introduce yourself a little bit, and then tell us where you were born and where you grew up, and a little bit about your childhood. Lynne Mattison [00:00:38] So my name is Lynne Mattison. I grew up in a West Albany, New York, which is a little village outside of the city of Albany. I grew up in a blue collar family, so both parents worked. For, my mother worked for the state. My father worked for a meatpacking plant. So it was a very small knit community that I grew up. Stu Whipple [00:01:09] My name is Stu Whipple. I was born and raised in Saratoga Springs. Lived here my whole life, with the exception of two years away for college. I, as well, come from a blue collar family. Both of my parents actually retired from Skidmore College. My dad was the head baker, and my mom was a housekeeper. Conrad Kassin [00:01:28] So for a second question, let's just get straight into it. Please, can you tell us what do you do and how did you end up in Saratoga? Lynne Mattison [00:01:36] What do I currently do? I work at Saratoga Springs High School. I work in the attendance office. I have a clerical position at Saratoga. Stu Whipple [00:01:48] I'm a custodian for the school district. Saratoga school district. At the high school as well. And actually, my first job I ever had, paying job, when I turned 16 was working here at Skidmore College in the kitchen as a high school trainee, glorified name for a pot washer. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:02:07] What inspired you to get involved in labor issues? Stu Whipple [00:02:14] For me, that's a no brainer because my dad was the president here for years for the local 200D . My brother was the president for the Saratoga Springs Fire Department, and I took a union class in college. It was just. We have to. Lynne Mattison [00:02:33] So for me, my father worked at a meatpacking plant in West Albany. They had just started to unionize down there and then the meatpacking plant closed. So he ended up working for the town of Colony, and he felt that he needed to become active for the labor movement there. They would just CSEA was just starting to get involved. So he got involved. My mother worked for the state and she was, what we call building rep . But she was a chef steward for CSEA at the Education Department. So for me, I feel like it was born, bred, and raised into me. �Conrad Kassin [00:03:14] Very cool. So what was your first experience with labor organizing? Lynne Mattison [00:03:22] Mine was probably about when I started 25 years ago when I started at the school district. I was approached by the, I was approached by one of the custodians in the school that I worked for. He was running against our current president at the time, so he asked if I would support him and help him organize his campaign for him. That's how I originally got involved in Up Here. Conrad Kassin [00:03:50] And you had already been at that point somewhat bing introduced to labor organizing from your childhood? I see. Stu Whipple [00:03:57] Mine was just when I started here in 1985 as a high school trainee. I was exposed to it my whole life. It's something that interested me tremendously. And then when I started at the school district. You know, I as well was, Lynne has inspired me to do it. And that was, oh boy, probably twelve years ago as an officer. So and it's, it's just something that you're, lot of it is, a lot of it is instilled in you when you're younger and you see the fight that your parents do. And it goes from generation to generation, I believe. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:04:31] So you’re discussing how important and how it's a generational importance of unions. What challenges do people in your field face? Stu Whipple [00:04:42] Right now, we're having a big thing where people just don't want to join a union. And to me, for me, it's hard to understand why, because there's so much job security. I mean, I love having that guaranteed paycheck every other week. I love having my vacation time, my sick time, my pay. And, you know, that's just and I've been at jobs where I've had paychecks bounce. And they show favoritism. When you're this, everybody's the same. Everybody's treated the same. And that's what you want. You want unity. And that's what that's what the union is about. It's about everybody. Lynne Mattison [00:05:23] I agree with Stu wholeheartedly. And I think the other challenge that we face right now was when the Janus case happened, right? You no longer, you know, it wasn’t mandatory that dues came out. So the challenges that we face are getting out, doing intake meetings with no employees, right, new support staff and explain to them the importance of regardless of what happens with Janus, but the importance of why you should become a union member and like Stu said, you know, the guaranteed paycheck and the benefits and the, that and the, to be represented, you know, if you, if something should happen. So, for us, it's about the positives and the pros and trying to keep our movement moving forward, so to speak. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:06:11] What is this, Janus? Lynne Mattison [00:06:13] So Janus Case was. Stu Whipple [00:06:16] Started by a schoolteacher years ago in California. And they just, they said that they should not have to join a union if it's a union job. But the only problem is they can opt out of the union, but they still get the benefits of the union, which that's another thing that we have to fight for now. Because if you opt out, I'm still paying union dues. Why should you get the same thing that my contract that says union members, why should you get that? Why should you be entitled to that when you're not paying union dues? That's specifically for union members. �Lynne Mattison [00:06:52] I think it was about 2018 that the Supreme Court ruled in favor for him so that we used to have agency shop fee payers, people that didn't want to join the union but still had to pay that union fee. And then there was us. So now they, they, all they have to do is just write a letter to that union. Now they can opt out if you don’t feel like the union is being beneficial to you. Like Stu said, we're now having that uphill battle that they're getting the same benefits that we're getting and not having to pay union dues. So we battle that on a daily basis. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:07:33] We, we’re both not on the labor field yet. What does, what does union dues look like and how much is a union due and is it a… Stu Whipple [00:07:43] Union dues are based, it's different for every union. It’s like a certain percentage of pretty much, your pay. So if you pay $33 like we get paid every other week. So a 60 to say $60 a month. But okay, so that equates to 720 a year. That's $720 a year. That's huge for it's it's not it's huge in a sense of the protection I have and what I get for that. It's peanuts. Lynne Mattison [00:08:12] And there's a breakdown. I would have brought the breakdown. So there's a breakdown of, like, where your union dues go. So in the broader picture there's AFSCME. Right? And so they're the big parent company of the unions. So AFSCME will get a percentage or are like political? Political action gets a portion of it. So our union dues, and they stay local. They'll stay for our regional dues and our state dues. But there's an overall broader picture of why you would pay union dues. Free college we used to have, ASFCME started a free college that the government now took away from us. Conrad Kassin [00:08:58] So I had a question for Stu, because you mentioned early that that a lot of the new laborers are not interested in joining labor unions. And I just had a question, if you could attribute that to, is that a policy decision that that's leading to that outcome? Or is that a, is that just like union busting on a local level? Stu Whipple [00:09:15] I don't think it's union busting. I think some of it is people are thinking, why should I pay to work? I think that, but and the thing is, if they don't, then like when it comes time for voting for our union officers or our contract why would you not want that right to vote for who's leading you or vote for your raise? You have no say if you're not a union member. And I just think some of it is also maybe because we have a lot of twenty and thirty hour employees and the union dues, that little bit they have that, I think that's part of it maybe. Conrad Kassin [00:09:53] I see. So for my next question, what have you guys accomplished? What are your big accomplishments you would like to tout, I mean, you kind of already mentioned this as a benefit of the dues. You have some protections, but is there something about organizing that you've accomplished that you'd like to tout? Stu Whipple [00:10:09] I know one thing with our last contract or I would Lynne, she's our president of our unit, one of the big things is we got health insurance back and that's a huge accomplishment. 50% health insurance when I retire, cause that was given away years ago. But she fought hard for that, her and the other officers. And to me, that's a huge, huge benefit. 50%. When you retire as opposed to zero. Lynne Mattison [00:10:36] I think we face a lot of battles now, right when it when it comes to negotiating union contracts. So like money and like Stu said, so we, when we try you know we reach out to our members, we get feedback from our members and then we take �it from there. Like how are we going to organize this? How are we going to, you know, go into something big to be able to negotiate retiree health insurance for members like? When you when you try to organize, you stand your ground like you, you don't back down from the issues that you believe in. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:11:16] Going along the same. What do you wish to accomplish that you haven't yet accomplished? Stu Whipple [00:11:21] 100% union membership. Lynne Mattison [00:11:25] I agree. 100%. Yes. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:11:28] And going with that, what percent of union membership do you currently have? Lynne Mattison [00:11:33] Well, we currently we have eleven school districts within Saratoga County that we represent as a local. So at Saratoga, we probably have we're probably at about 90%. So we have about four hundred, four hundred and thirty support staff. So we are probably at about 90% at Saratoga. County level for our eleven school systems, we're probably about the same percentage, probably at 90%. We have that 10%, we have. So we, we do new hires, all the districts do new hires all the time. So it's important for us to get out there and to get out there and be able to reach those new hires to let them know that what the union is about and why they should be coming. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:12:25] Why do you think this 10% is hesitant to join the union? Stu Whipple [00:12:30] I think some of them, like I stated a little while ago, is if they're only going to be a twenty or thirty hours employee, any money they are earning they need. So maybe it might be the the union dues or, I hate to say it, but some people might have retired somewhere and had a bad taste, you know, got a bad taste from union and just don't want to be in a union. Lynne Mattison [00:12:58] Right. We have, I've noticed from new employees this year we we’re not, we're not attracting the younger generation. So a lot of the generation is that middle aged generation like forties and older. Right? So these are people that have left maybe private sector and now are coming into the public sector. So it's it, it, it becomes a tough sell to us sometimes to get them to understand why it's beneficial to be part of the union. You know what you get for this, um, how we help. How? So I see more of that generation than I am the younger generation. Conrad Kassin [00:13:47] So kind of to backtrack a little bit, Lynne, I was curious if you could talk a little bit more about on the ground advocating for labor issues. Can you talk a little bit about your experiencing and what does that look like on the ground? Lynne Mattison [00:14:00] So. So we also, so if we are at a delegate conference or a workshop conference. So we go to Lake Placid for a conference. Right. And they we're in Lake Placid, let's say, and there is a public department, public safety or public works department. And they're not getting a fair contract or they're not. So we will, sort of say, walk the line for them. Right? To show our support. To help organize with them. To show, you know, you're not in it alone. Right? That we, we will organize this group when we come and we bring our CSEA signs. And it's all about supporting one another regardless of what union you’re in. So we have CSEA. We have local steamfitters. Teamsters. We �have PFE we have, we have, have PEF. So. It's important to me for my eleven school districts to act, to have my members also get involved, to show support to the other unions that are around us. Does that help? Conrad Kassin [00:15:14] Yes. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:15:16] So you were talking, Stu, earlier about like some people have a bad taste of unions. What makes a union good and effective and something that people want to join like on an individual basis? Stu Whipple [00:15:26] Well, it all starts with the leadership, too. If you have leadership that just sits back and lets stuff happen. Our leadership in our unit, in our local, our region and our state, we're great. We're out there. Like, we do. What do they call the door knocking things? The blitzes. They’re called the blitz. We go to non, non-members houses and knock on the door and get them to sign up. So… Lynne Mattison [00:15:54] We do drive throughs. Stu Whipple [00:15:56] Drive through, yeah. Lynne Mattison [00:15:57] We do drive throughs. Stu Whipple [00:15:58] Movie nights they had at the drive-in movie night, you know, things like that. You're trying to get the people to join. If you've had a bad experience, we want to make it better. We're going to make it better. It's not that we want to. We're gonna. Lynne Mattison [00:16:14] And I think if you notice, so things the saying is things come around in a full circle. Right? So, a while ago it was union, union, union. And then all of a sudden you started seeing companies, corporations move away from the union. Right? Now, all of a sudden, that's coming back full circle. Right? You're starting to see people organize unions. Starbucks. Right? Amazon. So you're starting to see people come back to the blue collar community. Right? Want to bring back a union so that people can fight for their rights? Safe work environments, fair wages. So that's what we've become part of when we see another union, brother or sister struggling for them. We can't get a fair contract, you know, where their employer wants to lock them out. That's where we come in and we've become their advocate for that. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:17:10] You used the wording, brothers, sister. Is the union kind of a family almost? Are you very closely connected? Lynne Mattison [00:17:16] Yes. Stu Whipple [00:17:17] Yes, absolutely. It's a huge unity and great. Conrad Kassin [00:17:22] And it's definitely seen it seems to be at least also cross across unions, too. It's beyond just your individual unit. Stu Whipple [00:17:28] Because we were with, who do we, that. Momentum. We were walking down with them. Lynne Mattison [00:17:34] Yes, yes. �Stu Whipple [00:17:35] Down in, wasn’t that Schenectady or wherever it was? Lynne Mattison [00:17:39] Waterford. Stu Whipple [00:17:40] Waterford, yeah. Conrad Kassin [00:17:39] So on the topic of organizational, organization, can you talk a little bit about how your organization has changed over the years, a little bit, and how it's come to the position it is in today? Stu Whipple [00:17:49] The thing for me is the Janus thing that was a huge change. And that was. But we're, we're fighting on that we didn’t give up just because we lost that. We don't give up. We fight. And that's, that's just how it is. That's what's great about being in a union. We all get together and go, goddammit, it's enough is enough. We're coming after you. It’s not that we’re coming after you. We want what we deserve. Conrad Kassin [00:18:16] Absolutely. Stu Whipple [00:18:17] You know? Conrad Kassin [00:18:18] If I can build off that question, what is, the what is the maximalist goals here? Like, if you're saying we're fighting, what is, what is, you win, what is, what does that look like? Stu Whipple [00:18:28] Well, it just shows you the unity and what, what, what people are capable of, capable of doing. Lynne Mattison [00:18:33] Equality. Stu Whipple [00:18:34] Yeah, exactly. When everybody gets together and it's just, it's great. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:18:44] Why is it important to remember these stories of working people? Lynne Mattison [00:18:51] Because you're always going to have working people. Right? We're always going to have to blue collar people. Right? College is not meant for everybody. Right? The private business is not meant for everybody. So you're always going to have labor class working people. So for future generations, it's important to them. It's important for us to let them know. Right? It's okay to be in a labor movement. It's okay to be part of a union. Right? You know, it's okay not to have to go to a four year college and get this big degree that, it's okay to be able to feel like that and be able to go into working class and, you know, build your, build yourself up from there. Stu Whipple [00:19:39] Yeah, I agree with that 100%. You're always going to have us. Lynne Mattison [00:19:44] We're always going to be there. We are not going, as Stu said to you guys before. We're not going anywhere. Stu Whipple [00:19:50] We are not going away. �Conrad Kassin [00:19:54] I mean that, just I'm thinking, just that means a lot of think tells a lot about what Americans who America is really for and what we're really working here to achieve. Lynne Mattison [00:20:04] I mean, we're learning to rebuild America. You just said it. I think we're looking to rebuild America into what America wants. Conrad Kassin [00:20:12] And I absolutely and I think you really, you made a point that working people have always been here and they are going to continue to be here. I think it's just a matter of now we've acknowledged that. And I think it's we need to uplift these working people and then kind of they need to have their due. They built this country, and… Lynne Mattison [00:20:28] But I think you're seeing that again. Like I said, that was my whole you’re going around in a full circle. Right? Like everybody at one point, people felt like 'taboo' to a union. Right? And like and now all of a sudden, you're seeing that come back together. So, so people are starting to unite again and feel like we need to bring America back to America. And that if that means bringing America back and forming a union to get better work environment, better pay, just a better life then, so be it. Conrad Kassin [00:21:03] So my final question, I'd be remiss not to ask about the midterm elections and the impact on labor issues as today is November 8th. I was just curious if you could opine on what you think are possible challenges facing labor organizing following these elections? Stu Whipple [00:21:23] This is a very touchy subject. As you guys know, it's a very touchy subject. I've lost friends because I, they don't like who I support or cause I don't agree with them. That's not what it's about. We all got to get along. Lynne Mattison [00:21:38] I think it's it's the political arena is tough enough. Right? So. It divides even as a union, right? A union, they may support that one candidate that you may not support. But like Stu said, you know, bottom line, it comes down to, for us, who is the best candidate that's going to do the best job for us as a labor? Right? And, and, and really meaning, like we for our local elections and our school board elections here, we get involved like we actually interview the candidates and, and ask them questions like, why do you want us to endorse you? What is it that you're going to do for us? And I have to tell you, the candidates that are running for Saratoga County I don't care if they are Democrat or Republican that are running. They are very pro-labor and very pro-union either, whether they are Democrat or Republican working families. You will find that, that, that the candidates that are out there now are in support and they do follow through. Once they're elected, it's not like they, they're just out there. They will say that they will follow through with the labor movement. Stu Whipple [00:23:03] Because they would never get the support from us again. Lynne Mattison [00:23:05] Right. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:23:06] Do you think, uh, local politics is most important for union successes, or do you think it's a federal also? Stu Whipple [00:23:17] Well really. It like with us, it's, our union is divided into four sections. You got a unit. Local, region, and state. So it's definitely all four, well pretty much your unit, your locals is the region. So I would say your unit, region and state. But I would �say probably most likely all four. It is very important for all four. Because when you go to negotiate your contract as unit. If you have, you know, like for the city of Saratoga, when they go, they got the mayor. And all the other four, you know, the commissioners, you know, if you back the wrong person and then they lose and, you know, that's a tough, that's a tough, tough to do. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:24:10] So you've both been in the union for a while. Your family's been in. Have you seen failures happen and is it difficult to recover from failures? I know you'd say you keep on pushing, but sometimes. Lynne Mattison [00:24:21] Now failures. So define what you mean by failures. GIovanni Jacobelli [00:24:23] Like, getting push back. Lynne Mattison [00:24:25] You’re always going to get push back. Stu Whipple [00:24:28] Like when you negotiate contracts you don't, you're not going to get, you can go on with a list like this and go “here.” You're not going to get all that. You go in with a wish list and if you get three or four of them, that's awesome, because you know that you’re gonna. It's like going to a casino. You got, to go to a casino knowing you're going to lose, you know. But with this, you know, you go in and you go, okay, we got twenty items. We get three or four of them. It’s Great. Lynne Mattison [00:24:52] Right. And I, and I, with the pushback. So that's what, that's what makes you, that's what makes us strong right now. The harder, the more you push us, the more we're going to push back at you. Right? So it’s about not giving up. So push, they're going to push and we're going to push back harder. At some point, we're going to come to me in the middle. Stu Whipple [00:25:16] When you go into a negotiations. You're not going to, it's not going to be done one or two trips. It's going to be months, maybe years. Because the union just does not give up. And the leadership and the membership. They get together. They know what they want. If they don't get it. We're not approving it. We're not ratifying it. Conrad Kassin [00:25:37] What would you say to someone, a younger person like me or Giovanni, who is just entering the workforce and is failing to unionize or failing to achieve this level of unionization? What do you would you say to them to keep them motivated? Stu Whipple [00:25:54] Well, first of all, remember, it's a learning, it's a learning experience, too. You just, you learn. I'm still learning. And I've been doing it for a long time. But you learn all the time. You keep your head strong and if you see something, you go after it. What’d your parents always tell you? You see something, you go after, you know, because you got to realize it's your livelihood, too. You know, and that's, that's really what it is. It's your whole livelihood. Conrad Kassin [00:26:27] I think that was everything we wanted to cover. I cannot thank you guys enough for being here. It's been a real phenomenal conversation, I think. Is there anything you guys would like to add? Last words, the final thoughts. Stu Whipple [00:26:39] I appreciate you asking us to come. I think that for young guys like yourself. You know, that's awesome. Because it shows that you're interested in it. So hopefully we can get you into a union and a union job. Over here. �Lynne Mattison [00:26:56] There's labor attorneys. There's, you know, we have labor attorneys. We have labor relations specialists. Right? So it's not just about us, but, like, we have we have attorneys at the CSEA that are, become labor attorney . Stu Whipple [00:27:12] Health and safety people that, which is right now, as you guys know, you know, you see your sign over there. It’s huge. Our health and safety they were fantastic. So I mean, it's not, a lot of people think, oh, that's all the union, that's all it is, is this. No, there's a lot more to it than just that right there, just us. Lynne Mattison [00:27:32] But we appreciate you guys reaching out to us. Stu Whipple [00:27:33] Yeah, absolutely. Lynne Mattison [00:27:34] This was great for us. Stu Whipple [00:27:36] Yeah. Conrad Kassin [00:27:36] Thank you so much. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Conrad Kassin '24 and Giovanni Jacobelli '24 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynne Mattison and Stuart Whipple Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:44 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynne Mattison and Stuart Whipple Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Lynne M. Mattison: I have resided in Saratoga Springs for the past 35 years. I have been active in the union for the past 28 years when I started working for Saratoga School District. I started on committees and worked my way up to a union officer. Union ties run deep in my family. I am currently the Local President of one of the largest Locals in Saratoga County and the Upstate Region 4. I also serve on various committees on the CSEA Region 4 level. Stuart Whipple: Born and raised in Saratoga Springs. My entire family have been and are active union members. I have been a union activist for the past 19 years . I currently am a Saratoga County Educational Local Officer which oversees 11 School District’s in Saratoga County. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/20b4356ddb31d61267bc20b9db06995b.jpg 201e52299e4c82d158c6e8afd5304c89 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/40b6cb648f66188f8d3cdb667ca5d6ca.mp3 5a4eced625c9a1350c9d1a723b0739c0 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d607a01f4caed999b18b6b0d2275cfbb.pdf 300b139eaedd8f69656c5aafb0c5bbe5 PDF Text Text Narrator: Melissa Deutsch Interviewers: Charlie Movius and Ben Nathan Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs Date of Interview: March 19th, 2024 Charlie Movius [00:00:00] My name is Charlie Movius. Ben Nathan [00:00:02] And I'm Ben Nathan. Melissa Deutsch [00:00:03] I'm Melissa Deutsch. Charlie Movius [00:00:05] Today is March 26th, 2024, and this is an interview on labor organizing in the Saratoga Springs area for Professor Eric Morser's American labor history class at Skidmore College. Ben Nathan [00:00:19] Mrs. Deutsch, you are a teacher at maple Avenue middle school. What attracted you to that job? Melissa Deutsch [00:00:28] That particular job or teaching in general? Ben Nathan [00:00:31] That particular job. Melissa Deutsch [00:00:32] Well, I got laid off from Niskayuna, and that job opened up. And I was teaching a student, a sixth grader in Niskayuna, and I was laid off when the, the tax cap went into effect. And, districts were laying off people everywhere and I just happened to get lucky and get up in Saratoga. Ben Nathan [00:01:03] Follow up - why did you decide to become a grade school teacher? Melissa Deutsch [00:01:11] I think part of it is my upbringing in a household - I think I was attracted to politics and this topic because my father was a Republican and my mother was a Democrat. And, so our household was very active in discussing issues. And they would always say, there they go to the polls and cancel out each other's votes. So I think that attracted me to this subject matter. And I just loved history and politics in general. And I also had some influential teachers as I was coming up as a young person. Then I came to Skidmore and, Tad Kuroda - I mean, these are names that the old timers would know was one of my favorite - I think he's not alive anymore, but - one of my favorite professors here. And, I just sort of gravitated into, my mother always wanted me to become a teacher. She wanted to become a teacher because, that's summers off, you know, that kind of thing. And great to have a family, and so that's kind of how I got into teaching. When I came here, I was the only person, only one, in my class doing secondary ed. They did not have a program for me. They had elementary ed, so they hired a man at Shen to be sort of my adjunct professor, for lack of a better word. And, that's history. That's where I did my student teaching, and, yeah. Charlie Movius [00:02:56] So thinking about being a teacher, as you were growing up and as you were in school, how is that different from actually being a teacher? Melissa Deutsch [00:03:11] It's intense to be a teacher. When you look at teachers you think, "Oh, I could do that, that's easy." And then you do it. And doing it well, because I've seen it done poorly in many cases. But doing it well takes a ton of work. And, how you �present things to a variety of learners is time consuming and takes a lot of energy. And, I gravitated towards middle school for some crazy reason. I think it was because I enjoyed my student teaching in seventh grade more than I enjoyed the older students. So that's, I've been a middle school teacher for over 25 years, so I have never done anything else. I've taught sixth and seventh and eighth grade and that's it. And I think that that's where I belong. So. Charlie Movius [00:04:12] Do you think, would you say that being part of a union is a way to help you be a better teacher and to help you teach well? Melissa Deutsch [00:04:23] Sometimes. I do, I do believe in unions. It's funny, because my dad was a small business owner and was always complaining about painters unions. He had a, construction business, and my mother was opposite. I see definitely the benefits of unions, but I also have seen the decisions that unions make sometimes the nitty, the small decisions and how they impact me in the classroom, I don't always agree. Mostly scheduling. It's the way that, I know this is already nitty gritty, but the way that our contract, we have 144 minutes of student free time, but that really stifles our schedule. So sometimes it doesn't allow us to do what we need to do for kids. And that's when I struggle with union organizing. And not organizing, but just sometimes the decisions are made and they don't realize how they impact the kids. And, and scheduling is a big issue for me. Ben Nathan [00:05:44] You said that you were in a very political household, did that make it easier to to become a voice in the union? Because you already had some experience in the political world? Melissa Deutsch [00:06:03] Well, I've never been really shy. Right. So that's... and I've always, been taught to voice my opinions, which sometimes get you in trouble, obviously. I think growing up where my parents were like, well, tell us what you think, you know, and I did and, and it was I wasn't like debate club or anything like that, but I always was sort of, like when I was going through school, I wasn't part of a group, you know, have the the nerds and the athletes and the potheads, whatever. I went from place to place and I felt like I didn't, I didn't... I felt like I could create coalitions and for lack of a better word, in my high school with different groups. So I think that was I didn't even think of that before. But I think that's kind of how I was in high school. And and when I got to college, I wasn't as active. I was just so busy working and trying to survive academics here. I don't know if that answers your question, but. Ben Nathan [00:07:26] It does. Thank you. Charlie Movius [00:07:28] So did that influence, did that upbringing and attitude influence your decision to be so involved with the union? And in addition to that, could you speak a little bit about the structure of the Saratoga Teachers Union? Is it mandatory for all new hires? Is it a voluntary situation? Melissa Deutsch [00:07:47] So I for a start, I taught ten years at, North Colonie at the beginning of my career, and I was not very involved. I think when you're beginning as a young person - well, I wish more young people would get involved. And I wish I did get more involved when I was younger, in retrospect. And then, I think when I got to Niskayuna, that was my second job after I stayed home with my children for a little while, and then I went back and, I wasn't as involved there either, which is interesting. And then when I got laid off I think that was an indicator to me, like, I should. And and as you get older and you start looking at a contract and how it impacts your retirement and things like �that, I think that's when a lot of people get more involved. Unfortunately, I wish people younger would get more involved at the beginning. Because we need young people at the negotiating table, honestly. But, and was the second part of the question? I can't remember. Sorry. Charlie Movius [00:08:53] Yeah. No worries. If you could just, speak a little bit on the structure of the Saratoga Teachers Union. And also any differences with other teachers unions that you know of or that you were a part of. Melissa Deutsch [00:09:06] Yeah. So that's an interesting question. And you should look in the contract that I'll leave with you with as long as I get back. But, we changed our structure, that's part of the Constitution, which I'll leave with you, during Covid, that changed everything, honestly. We used to have, you know, the leader, the vice president, and then everybody else kind of thing. That led committees. And, I can show you who they are, what those committees are. And during Covid the job of the union president exploded like you can't even imagine. When I first started, it was 2019, when I first got really involved and I was vice president. And it was, you know, we went to conferences and we learned and we went to the Capitol and we, lobbied. And it was all good times, and then Covid hit and people were freaking out, right. They wanted the union to solve everything, including the pandemic, and the president, that's when he couldn't do it anymore. You know, it just became too big. And he needed a break, which is totally valid. And then I was elevated to president for four months, which was pretty stressful. But it was an interesting time because we became more partners with the human beings on the other side of the table that you're usually contentious with. Just trying to figure out with district leaders how we were going to do it, how we were going to educate kids. So after Covid and things settled down, the president realized he came back and he realized, I need a structure where, it's not all on me. It's a big district. And I mean, there's 500 of us, and that's a lot of - you can't even imagine the types of emails that I would get as union president just from almost like "I have a hangnail, solve that," you know what I mean? And then, or big problems, you know. So now our structure is the president two first vice presidents, one from elementary level and one from [secondary] that's how we start to organize it. So now elementary, there's two elementary vice presidents and two secondary vice presidents underneath the president. So that helped because I think the biggest bear is the elementary schools, because there's six of them and there's lots of things going on. And so we restructured and you'll see that in the Constitution that I can leave with you. But, in order to, to make it more, equitable in terms of the workload involved with, with this particular union. Ben Nathan [00:12:09] Actually. Yeah, this was when you were a vice president. It was in the fall 2019 newsletter for the Saratoga Springs Teachers Association. It says, quote, "One topic at our meeting will be specific roles of special education teachers, school counselors, school psychologists, OTPT, speech providers, and social school social workers. The board is seeking information about our programs that are designed to meet the needs of our students." And that last part caught my attention because it doesn't say anything about, "oh, these people [need a] raise, or state of the art facilities and equipment," highlights about how these programs should, these people, should make the students better. That's the priority. Why did you focus on the students as your as the number one priority in specifically that and other times? Melissa Deutsch [00:13:12] Right. So I think, one board member in particular was very interested in finding out what the roles of each of those people - what they're supposed to do within the district. Right. So, because we kept asking for more mental health help, �right? Even before Covid. And so they wanted to kind of see. The board was starting to get a little more active, and it takes a long time for a board member to start asking the right questions of district leaders. And once they have a few years under their belt, this is not having much to do with - quick, like, let me give you an example. So we cut music positions, right? That that was one. And then, it was now we had like hundreds of kids in study halls because they couldn't go to general music because that wasn't an option anymore. And the board went, "What do you mean, they're in study halls?" Well, you cut the music position. And so people, they they didn't understand the repercussions of a cut, you know, and when you cut human beings how it impacts the other human beings in the building, whether it be other teachers or students. So that was, you know, that didn't didn't answer your question, but that the board members were starting to ask the right questions. And, "here is your position, what are you doing?" Right. What is your role in the school? And, who do you help? How many do you help? Because they were trying to figure out where the need was. We could tell them where the need was, but they had learned the impact of their decisions. So they were asking smarter questions. So I think we were already noticing that our kids were in crisis, for a variety of reasons. Well, the phone, social media, you know, those are my reasons. But, and I think that's - and then Covid hit and, you know, we were even more desperate for those services, so. Charlie Movius [00:15:48] I think it's fair to say that it's a tough time to be a teacher - I think it's fair to say that it's a tough time to be a teacher right now. And, asking the right questions is an important part of both making it easier on students and improving the situation for teachers. And so, in your opinion, what are some of the right questions that people should be asking? That teachers should be asking that, board members should be asking, or parents or students, or anyone. Melissa Deutsch [00:16:23] Well, I don't know if you have been watching recently, but we're $7 million in debt. We're in trouble, the district. And there's a variety of reasons. We're going to have to explain those reasons to the public. And right now, they're not they're going to cut people through attrition. So that means we lose positions, right? So, and what I was just saying, when you lose human beings in the building, it makes my life a lot harder. Like, I can't get a teacher's assistant in a classroom that I desperately need one. We can't attract people. And so what ends up happening, a special ed issue is people get pulled to to go in to go in other places, like a reading teacher might get pulled or a teacher's assistant might get pulled to cover someone else. Right. Because we don't have the bodies anymore. And then we're out of compliance for special ed kids, which is, they should start asking those questions. On a daily basis, we're out of compliance. We're doing things illegally because we don't have people to give the services to the kids that need them. So that is a big bee in my bonnet right now. Because that really makes my life harder. So they need to start really thinking about those cuts. And they don't consider them cuts because they're not firing anybody. They're not giving anyone a pink slip, which we're thankful for. As a union, we're like, okay, great. We're not losing any jobs. We're not firing anybody. But when you lose human beings, it puts pressure on everybody else. And it makes teaching much harder. Ben Nathan [00:18:47] How is Saratoga Springs in that much debt? Melissa Deutsch [00:18:51] Okay. So you need to go to the city of Saratoga Springs, and ask them when the last time they were assessed, and it was, 2005, I believe. Let that sink in, because Wilton people and Greenfield people should be angry. And I've spoken, look it up, I spoke in the fall about this very issue to the board, and one of their goals, I researched, and one of their goals was to seek new streams of revenue. And I said, how �about you start with pushing a citywide reassessment because you have people whose homes are worth $2 million and they're paying $300,000 on a $300,000 house. That's what they're paying in taxes. So to me, that is a crime and a disservice to our students. I've also advocated for overriding the tax cap, which is extremely radical. But that law was put into effect by Governor Cuomo as revenge against the teachers union for not giving him an endorsement. And it forces districts to choose between programing and staff. And it's very bad policy, in my opinion. Ben Nathan [00:20:24] In that October meeting, you also talked about not having a, quote, "true raise," in eight years. Can you explain what you meant by that? Melissa Deutsch [00:20:38] Yeah. Well, part of it is because I made a choice to pay up on my insurance. Because I want the best possible health insurance I can get. They lure us into a cheaper plan, and I refused to do that. They would like to eliminate that expensive plan. So that's part of the reason. Because when I get a raise, it's wiped out by higher health insurance costs. So that's pretty much why I haven't had a true raise in a long time. And that's my decision. I get that. But I think, I don't know if you listened to me about 3 to 1. I talked about 3 to 1 in that speech. So when I came to Saratoga Springs, I had 15 years of experience, and I, they put me on step five. So I'm constantly trying to make up that difference. And I took that job because of the reason I told you, was there was a shortage of jobs because of the tax cap, and I got laid off. And I work very, very hard. And I, I just feel like I've been working so hard and not getting ahead for a long time. Charlie Movius [00:22:18] You've talked about the tax cap and the role of the state government in school affairs. And you've also talked about the need to explain the debt to the public, and relationships with school board members. Could you talk a little bit more on your perception of the current balance of power between all of these different actors who have, maybe different, objectives when it comes to schools? Melissa Deutsch [00:22:54] Hm. You mean the the players like the district leaders, and the board, and the union? Charlie Movius [00:23:01] Yeah. District leaders, the board, the union, parents, state government. And I know that that's a really broad question. Melissa Deutsch [00:23:12] Our superintendent is a very good advocate at the state. He doesn't like it when I talk about the tax cut. I know that he doesn't like that. Because it's so risky for a district to try to go against the state. It's an interesting, delicate balancing act between the union, the district leaders and the board. Our union right now has a very tight relationship with the Board of Education. To be brutally honest. And our district leaders don't like that, as you can imagine. When we were in mediation at the end of this last contract, the board members came to the mediation, which is unheard of because they had had it. They had had it with the lack of movement. And then after that meeting, we settled. So, you know, I mean, it's because we go back to the importance of that committee that I was heading about who is on the board. That is very important. And I still continue to, I don't run that committee anymore, but I show up for those interviews. I'm asked to. And the people there that come that are from that organization that you spoke of, that are trying to get on the board. We can see right through them. They are trying to kiss up to that committee. It's really ugly to watch. But, I gotta admit that they came, you know, to talk to us, so. But anyway. I don't know if I answered that question, but it is a delicate balance between the three groups. I feel like the parents, they didn't know we didn't have a contract for two years. Well, almost all of them. You know, a small percentage. [They] �didn't know. Because we're quiet until we can't be quiet anymore. We're really unlike other both Nisky and North Colonie were noisy. So Saratoga Teachers Association has been really under the radar. [...] That's why I think when we got active in the fall, people were like, "what?" Because we use that power sparingly. We use it to get people on the board for sure. But in terms of, you know, marches and screaming and signs, parents, the people were like, shocked, I think, when they realized what were the teacher screaming about? Charlie Movius [00:26:33] So, you touched on a lot in that answer Melissa Deutsch [00:26:37] [Laughing] I'm sure I did. Charlie Movius [00:26:39] Can you, as a follow up, can you talk about, why it was that you needed to get loud in the fall and what it was that you were getting loud about? Melissa Deutsch [00:26:47] Right. So, I think when we came to the realization it's been two years, right? And we went through this, we went through Covid with our students, with our parents. And we felt like we deserved a decent contract after what we've been through. And I might get teary because it was hard. It was really hard. And, you know, we were angry at the district because they were disrespecting that. And they've been through the same thing. We were like, "you know what we just went through!" And the administrators got their contract, you know, and we were like, this is so... And then we there was a lot of pushing, the the union president got a lot of criticism because he didn't move fast enough. He didn't say enough. You know, he didn't get angry enough. His answers were too politically correct and too siding with the district and blah, blah, blah. So I was kind of in that camp. You know, I was like, "start screaming." And but then when NYSUT came in and kind of explained to us what I was talking about earlier. You can't start off here [gestures towards ceiling]. You have to build a coalition first among other union people. Get your parents on your side. I mean, I brought the notes that I was taking that day. Of how first you build a coalition behind you, and then you start screaming, right? And then there's a, you know, a gradual increase of activity. When we started that training, we didn't have to scream too long until the board got involved and they came to the table. So I think it was like, let's see, in the fall, we were screaming about it. When did we settle? November. End of November. Ben Nathan [00:28:50] Are you happy with the contract that came out of the negotiation? Melissa Deutsch [00:28:59] Uh.. I voted yes. I'll tell you that. But begrudgingly, a little bit, being a 3 to 1 person, I wanted them to do something for those people because it's 68% of teachers, suffered from 3 to 1. And that's a unique thing in our contract. There's no other district does that. And we kept telling the district, if you keep doing that, you're never going to attract people that have any experience. Because if you have 15 years of experience, you start on step five. And we said to the district, "that's hurting you." And the district kind of threw their hands up and said, "well, what do you want us to do? 68% of you were hired under this. You want us to give you all 100 steps or whatever?" And, so they just put that aside again, you know, so they're not going to help those people. And I didn't expect it, but it would have been nice to throw us a bone, give us two steps or something. Something to repair the damage of the people that have suffered from 3 to 1. But then I look at, I'm a union [sic] and the ugly language was removed and the raise was okay, 4.5 [%] per year for the rest of the contract. So it was okay. And as our leader said, it's - we're not going to get any better. So when we understood, he said that the first time when we voted no. But it was better than the first round that we voted no on. �Charlie Movius [00:30:41] For those unfamiliar, could you talk a little bit more about how payment and salary works? In terms of steps and years of experience? Melissa Deutsch [00:30:53] Yeah. So, that's in the contract and you can take a look at that. So you get an incremental raise every year. Right? So, and it varies. In our pay schedule, it varies because - some people got a little bigger of a raise, like, I got a little bigger of a raise because our salary schedule was sort of like this [gestures]. And in the middle steps it took a big dip. So what we've been trying to do for the last few contracts is raise that dip. And I'm in it. I'm in the middle of the salary schedule. I'm in step 17. Not quite the middle, a little up. So we've some of us got a little bigger [raise] than others. Which is hard to explain, but yeah. It passed overwhelmingly the second time around because we were just so angry about the language. And once the language was removed and we got an okay raise and we're still paying less - we went up to 18, I think, percent, you might have to look at that - for our health contributions, which is still lower than surrounding districts. And, you know, I mean, the district is like, "you're in the middle of the Suburban Council," and we're like, "well, why aren't we first? You know, you're Saratoga. Can't we be first paid in the Suburban Council?" So that kind of irks me too. That, they're all proud. "Oh, you're in the middle of the salaries." Well, why can't we be number one in salaries? Like, Ballston Spa makes more than we do, Schuylerville makes makes more than what we do. And look at our community compared to those communities. Ben Nathan [00:32:50] And by more you mean pure salary number? You don't mean like the percentage of Melissa Deutsch [00:32:57] I'd have to take a look at all that. That's true. I think both those districts probably pay a little bit more in their contributions for health insurance. But when you're looking at salaries I think, yes. Ben Nathan [00:33:11] Roughly, what was the percentage of the union who agreed in the second round of voting? Melissa Deutsch [00:33:19] Oh, it was very high. I'd have to look. It was. It was over 70, maybe 80. It was high. Yeah. It was very, Yeah, it was lots of support for the second round. Yes. Charlie Movius [00:33:38] Do you think that the increase in mobilization and vocalization of the concerns of the teachers, how do you think that that played the role not just reaching a new agreement, but having such, a high percentage of teachers vote yes on the contract? Melissa Deutsch [00:34:00] I just think that, yes. A resounding yes. I mean, I just think that people didn't know. People didn't know that we hadn't had a contract for two years. People didn't know. They just didn't know what was happening. So once people started talking about it, and the signs, and we came in force to the board meetings, and we got press, and things like that. I think people started saying things like, "We're Saratoga, you know, how come our teachers are angry and upset?" And they had to stop because it's not good attention to this community. Ben Nathan [00:34:50] What were the vulnerabilities of not being in a contract for two years? For you, for the union and union members? �Melissa Deutsch [00:35:00] So. The Taylor Law, I think if I'm correct, that's the law that you go by your previous contract, right? So that wasn't so horrible for us. That's why we could wait it out. Because in our previous contract, we paid 15% of our insurance. And that's what the district wanted to stop. They wanted that to go because other districts around us pay 22%. Right? And as health insurance costs rise, you know, it just costs the district more. They needed to come to the table for that particular reason. And we could wait. We could wait because 15% is pretty good. And then we still get our step increase every year. It's not a lot, but we would still get a tiny little raise because of our steps. So, you know that. So we could wait, and the district had to finally come to the table because they couldn't sustain that in, in the rising cost of health care. Charlie Movius [00:36:14] How much internal disagreement is there within the Saratoga Teachers Union? You spoke earlier about sort of, opposing poles, of we should be more vocal versus, we should try to smooth everything out, if that's a fair way to characterize it. Are there teachers who are, oppositional to certain approaches or teachers who are even oppositional to the idea of a union? Melissa Deutsch [00:36:49] So I think, previous question was, do you have to join? Right. So the answer is no now, because of the Janice ruling. Right. I'll get back to your question, but what we what we've been trained more so since Janice came out is we need to be a full service organization. Right. So we really need to show our members, you know, why they're paying their dues. One thing that we've really, we really have embraced is 1 to 1. Now 1 to 1 is physically speaking to a person. Not an email, not a text. Physically going to their classroom and saying, how are you doing? What do you think we should should our priorities be? And I brought some of that if you want to look at that. The variety of answers that you get is unbelievable because you talk to a music teacher, the tech teachers got something. The Spanish teacher's got something else, the guidance counselor, so there's such a variety in our jobs. You'd be surprised how many teachers begrudgingly pay their union dues. Because they're not big believers in a union. We only have, honestly, two people that don't pay their dues. And two out of 500 is pretty damn good. That's strong. Right? I mean, there's definitely a variety of opinions when you have 500 people and you've got Republicans, Democrats, you know, people who comment on that website who agree with teachers are on there too. But you've got to try, and I think the best way to do that is 1 to 1, honestly. It is really effective. And it shows your membership that you're listening and that's really what people want, to be listened to. And they want to be heard and they want not everything to be solved. But, you know, they want their union to, to, respond in some kind of way. We have a variety of people out there and a variety of needs. And 1 to 1 is really educational for me because I get in my little bubble and when I go out there and actually talk to people, I learn a lot. I learn. And then I can bring that to my executive council meetings and just be more knowledgeable about music positions and what their gripes are and things like that. So, I don't know if that answers that question, but that's a very long answer. Charlie Movius [00:40:07] I want to return to something that you just mentioned and that you mentioned earlier. Is that schools and teachers across the country have had some problems with, groups that have organized many times in the name of parents rights. But that their main goal is to keep things like DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion, or racial justice initiatives, to keep those initiatives out of schools. And you can be as specific or non specific as you like in this question. But I would love to hear if you could talk a little bit more on the challenges that you faced from those people in that movement, as well as how the union can be a tool in addressing those issues. �Melissa Deutsch [00:41:03] Yeah. So, you know, I've gotten myself online before. And I was a target of the group, I think it was them. It was an assignment that I've been doing a long time about, you know, where you stand in terms of issues. And I was trying to get them to understand, maybe Ben did this with me, but trying to get them to understand are you more conservative or are you more liberal kind of thing? Where where were you on the continuum kind of thing? And that ended up, that assignment ended up featured in social media. But the good thing about our district is the leadership is hugely supportive of DEI. Hugely. And because we have such a small pocket of students, we have such a small percentage of black students, and, it's not all about race, obviously. And with what we were talking about before, the perceived acceptance of these hateful things makes the district even more supportive. Right. So, that I'm really thankful for. Because I teach history and my main subjects are the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of 4 million people. So, I'm very sensitive to that. Right? I'm also sensitive to my students who are gay, and figuring that out, because that is middle schools. Welcome to middle school. I'm very sensitive to that. And I want every kid to feel welcome in their school. I think that the district ignores the noise, and they do a good job at that. And the people that come forward at those board meetings, ugh. I just feel like there's so many more people in our community that can shut that down. And they do. And I don't know if you've seen that in those board meetings. People shut that stuff down. And I'm thankful for a community that does that. I've had a couple, occasionally, someone criticize, I did an assignment on "the six truths about slavery," right? It is an assignment. And it was a Junior Scholastic Magazine article. And one of the quotes was from the woman who did the 1619 project. And the parent went after me because of that one quote. Right. So, you know, I mean, when you're a teacher, you don't want to get that kind of attention. Right? So in retrospect, we made some concessions so we aren't targeted, which makes me want to be sick. Right? Because that's not my natural inclination. But as I get older, I don't want to be a target of social media. I really don't. That will make my life miserable. So to tweak something, to make it a little more acceptable to someone like that, I don't like doing that, but that's kind of what can happen. but, I mean, I'm not going to stop teaching about enslavement and genocide. So it's not going to stop me. Because it's right. Ben Nathan [00:45:14] You just talked about this, but Saratoga Springs and the school district is very purple. There are a lot of Republicans, a lot of Democrats. Melissa Deutsch [00:45:26] I live in Greenfield. It's pretty red [laughing]. Ben Nathan [00:45:27] Greenfield? And the area around the racetrack is extremely blue, so it evens out. Melissa Deutsch [00:45:36] Yeah Ben Nathan [00:45:37] You talked about this a little bit, but when it comes to slavery and people pushing back, has there ever been the opposite, where you don't talk about something enough and people push back on that as well? Melissa Deutsch [00:45:48] No, no, it it's usually the other way around. Because if you remember, I tackle those things with kids. We unpack these issues in my classroom. As long as I'm not, you know, I don't know, indoctrinating kids. If I could indoctrinate kids, they bring me Dunkin Donuts every day, right? I don't think that's a thing. And I don't tell them my opinion, I'm like, here's the information. You figure it out for yourself. Ben Nathan [00:46:30] For the record, that is true. At least when I had her. �Charlie Movius [00:46:37] I think to, wrap up, I want to ask about going forward, what are the biggest challenges? What do you anticipate from the biggest challenges, to be for for teachers, for the school districts, for the union? Melissa Deutsch [00:46:54] Well, I tell you what we are really working on right now. Workplace violence. Right? We are, using, New York State Law and Workplace Violence Act to our advantage. Niset's advice, because, whether it's, a parent going after and threatening a teacher, or going after them in the parking lot, which has happened. Or students getting violent in the classroom, there's a real uptick in that. That's no joke. And, so now with the law on our side, we are going to utilize that law. So right now we are in the process of revamping our code of conduct with the Workplace Violence Act in our minds. And, hopefully those two things will kind of merge into a document. Because the district wants specifics, like, "what do you teachers think is unsafe?" So right now the we're making a big spreadsheet, people are adding things of what is unsafe. I mean, we've had teachers with in the elementary school with broken noses. I'm I'm not joking here. And, there's just been - look, parents, no offense, are not as good as they used to be. It's really frustrating that kids are so, they come to us with so many issues. Our jobs are, are so much more now than just teaching. There's so many facets of our jobs now that are, you know, you gotta know what triggers a kid. I don't want to be responsible for that kid because I don't know what triggers them, you know, that kind of thing. Like, what's going to get them upset? These are things we now have to consider that, I've done this a long time. I never considered that 20 years ago ever, you know? So, I know I'm old and I blame phones and social media, but I really think there's something to that. With the change of the disrespect, and maybe it's too. They're hearing it at home. Oh, you know, those teachers, they they're lazy, they get the summers off, and, you know, the kids come into us, and "my mom thinks you're lazy." You know what I mean? There used to be a lot more respect for the person in front of the classroom, parents and and students. And that has changed. And that is hard. Because I feel like I've never worked harder. And, I think I do demand respect from my students for sure. And I think when the kids and I also, and Ben can attest to this, I really work hard at rapport and reaching each kid so that they go home and they say, you know, I think this teacher might like me. And that helps, obviously, with public relations. So I really try to be kind to my students and teach them in a humorous way. And work hard on presenting it in a way that's fun. And they go home and they like history. That's all I care about. I don't care if you get a D in my class, if you walk out and you are positive about the subject matter, I've done my job. Hopefully you'll go off and you'll be a good citizen and vote and and be part of the solution. Ben Nathan [00:50:55] One more question before you head out. Do you think in the next contract, with a aging union, if there's no younger teachers coming in, do you think the union and the district will, try to put that in the contract to try to attract them? Melissa Deutsch [00:51:18] I don't know how they're going to attract people in our particular district. As I said, 3 to 1 hurts the district. I don't know how they're going to attract young people to teaching right now in general. I think people know it's grueling work and teachers are less respected than ever before. And why would you do that? You know, when I can work at home and in my pajamas. Because you can't do that. That doesn't work. Let me just say that we tried that for a year and a half. That doesn't work. So attracting people, I don't know. I mean, President Biden says, well, we need to give teachers a raise, then nothing happens, right? Governor Hochul has got no spine, right? You know, not even to go after the task because that would help. We deserve more. We deserve to make a living and not have to work a second job. Right. And young people, the �salaries aren't there for them. In some districts. they're getting a little better at the bottom. But, I don't know what would attract, young person to this occupation right now. My son who was a chemistry graduate, he's like, "maybe I'll be a teacher." I was like, "no!" And that's not good. I love teaching, I should promote it, but but I can't do that right now. I don't know if that answers your question, because I don't think I can answer that one. I don't know how they're going to do it. Ben Nathan [00:53:09] You did answer it. Melissa Deutsch [00:53:11] We're going to be in trouble in five years. I will just say that, the district just offered us today, I was at a meeting at 7 a.m., a retirement incentive. Because they want to get rid of old people like me. Right? And hire someone for half the cost. The retirement incentive was terrible, right? And there were 68 of us that could potentially do it. And they need ten to make it worth their while. I don't think they're going to get ten. We'll see. But, it's not going to be me because it was pretty lame. But that that's their solution, right. To get rid of the old guard and the people who are at the top steps and replace them with people at step one. Which is, you can look for yourself where step one is, see if you'd be attracted to the job at that salary rate. So I'll leave you with the salaries, if you want. Charlie Movius [00:54:11] With that, I want to Ben Nathan [00:54:16] Seriously, yes. Melissa Deutsch [00:54:18] I gotta get to Cantina! Charlie Movius [00:54:20] Yeah. So with that, I want to thank you so much for allowing us to interview you. Melissa Deutsch [00:54:24] Well, if you have more questions, you know how to get me. You can text me or, you know, reach out if you have a follow up things. I'm happy to oblige. Or if you need to do this more, right. Because this was pretty good. Ben Nathan [00:54:38] Yeah. And thank you for spending your evening with us. And thank you for allowing the American labor history class at Skidmore College to interview and talk about your experience and your union, and the teachers union that you're involved in. Melissa Deutsch [00:55:02] Thanks, Ben. Thanks for having me, ben and Charlie. Charlie Movius [00:55:05] Thank you,. Ben Nathan [00:55:06] Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Charlie Movius, Ben Nathan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Melissa Deutsch Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 55:07 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit March 26th, 2024 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Melissa Deutsch Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 19th, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Melissa Deutsch is a veteran middle school social studies educator with over 28 years of experience in the Suburban Council schools. She currently teaches 7th grade at Maple Avenue Middle School in the Saratoga Springs City School District. Melissa holds a Bachelor of Arts from Skidmore College and a Master’s degree from SUNY Albany. Beyond the classroom, she has been a passionate advocate for educators through her extensive involvement in the Saratoga Springs Teachers Association (SSTA). Over the past thirteen years, she has served in numerous leadership roles including union representative, chair of the Educational Concerns Committee, NYSUT representative, contract negotiations team member, ED 10 representative, vice president, and president. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Benno Greene Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/833e825a076280d4eed978f3c2fb4df9.jpg 0bd0793e4383964af1ce3b244775b0c4 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/adcab524798a83cc3ed3ad4ccc9b8c77.mp3 75f49f0b9e78be274063fd00f00e973b https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/7d5bd67564028d60fbdfe9097a93a1c4.pdf a8167d597e6097570c3d890bc9128636 PDF Text Text Narrator: Ruth McAdams Interviewers: Sam Stiefel ’24 and John Sveen ‘24 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: November 17, 2022 Speaker 1 [00:00:00] Lets see how this is going. So yeah, I think it's. Speaker 2 [00:00:05] It's good volume level. Sam [00:00:06] Yeah. He said it should be right around six. Speaker 2 [00:00:09] Okay. Sam [00:00:10] So I think that if we talking to. Yeah. It's picking stuff up. Okay. I think we're going okay. Speaker 2 [00:00:18] Yeah, right. Sounds good. So I guess to begin, we're just going to start talking about kind of like more general background stuff and kind of as a rule of thumb, it's helpful for the transcription if when we ask a question in the way you respond, if you repeat the question, that's really helpful for someone transcription. Sam [00:00:40] Just so we know what where we're at. Speaker 3 [00:00:42] Sounds good. Speaker 2 [00:00:43] Sounds good. But I guess so. We're going to be a little bit freeform, but we also have some questions prepared. But um, just to start off, could you tell us your name and where you're from? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:00:55] I'm Ruth McAdams. I'm a teaching professor in the English department at Skidmore. You want to know where I'm from - from? Yeah. Chicago. Sam [00:01:04] Chicago. Great. Did you spend your whole childhood there? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:01:08] Yeah, I grew up there. Sam [00:01:09] Yeah. What was that like? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:01:12] Chicago was a great place. I have positive feelings toward it. I haven't been back in a really long time, though, so I don't think about it too often, I guess. People sometimes ask me if I can recommend like a good bar or restaurant, but I can't, like, I have no idea what's going on in Chicago these days. John [00:01:30] Gotcha. Gotcha. Did you say you lived in Chicago your entire upbringing then? Until going to college, I assume. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:01:41] Yeah. Since then I've moved around a lot. I did my undergrad at Penn in Philadelphia, so I was there for four years. And then after that I had a fellowship that took me to Edinburgh, Scotland, where I lived for three years. I did a master's degree in English literature at the University of Edinburgh. I then after that was two years, and I spent a year there afterward doing some teaching, various other projects, applying to graduate school. And then I did my Ph.D. at the University of Michigan. So Ann �Arbor, Michigan, is where I lived for four years. And then around that time things became very complicated. My partner had a post-doc, so we moved together to Atlanta for one year. Then he got a job here at Skidmore, and so I was here while I was still finishing my dissertation for one year. Then I went back to Michigan for a postdoc for one year. Then I went to Istanbul, Turkey, for a year for a job. That was really wonderful. And then after that I came here to Skidmore, and so I have been here since September of 2017. John [00:02:39] It's great. Yeah, that's awesome. You want to go ahead? Sam [00:02:43] Yeah. Did you always know that you wanted to pursue, like, such a devout background in literature and education, or did you have other plans growing up? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:02:55] Well, my first plan was to be a professional oboist. I was a musician as a kid and very serious about it. So that was what I really wanted to do for a long time around the, around college, I decided to do something else and that's when I really fell in love with literature. And that's when I decided I wanted to pursue a job as an academic, as a professor. Sam [00:03:19] Yeah. John [00:03:20] It's great. Yeah. It seems like with so many different experiences at universities and, and places that you've lived as well, it seems like all that together that must have had an influence on, on where you ended up now. Could you tell us whether in in your experiences at these, these all these universities are larger on the larger side? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:03:40] That's correct. Yeah. John [00:03:41] And now you're teaching at a smaller very much smaller institution. Could you tell us a little bit about the experience teaching at a liberal arts school and how it's different from your experience at those bigger schools? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:03:55] Yes, I'm happy to talk about that. Small liberal arts colleges are very different places to work than big research institutions, which, you are correct, is where I spent my whole academic career prior to coming to Skidmore, and I would say that the differences are really huge. One of them is that Skidmore sees itself as a community. As a small community. I have my own thoughts as to what that really means in practice. Some more critical thoughts about what that means. But I would say that, at its best, it's really wonderful to be part of a small community of faculty and students, to get to know students a bit better than I did at my previous job. And to, you know, really, I think Skidmore tries to, tries to provide students with what they need to succeed, which wasn't even attempted necessarily at some of my previous places, or that was just considered to be immediately outside the scope of what we were trying to do. Sam [00:04:57] Yeah. And so you mentioned this, this transition and you said you're from Chicago and you went to school in Philadelphia. I live outside of Philadelphia, so. And then you went to Edinburgh. You know, these are very big places and then you come to a much smaller place. And do you think that maybe that focus of like going to such a smaller place kind of allowed you to maybe think about that environment and, and your job and what you liked about that job and, you know, how that kind of transitioned into maybe looking at what you thought could be better about that job? �Prof Ruth McAdams [00:05:37] Yes, I would say that one really noticeable thing about teaching in a small liberal arts college is that you begin to be very aware of the high level of hypocrisy institutions like this have, they attract a liberal, progressive student body, and yet the labor practices of the institution are dire and, you know, indefensible and totally inconsistent with the kind of stated values of the college. And that to me, was a really eye opening experience. My, well, I could say more about that, but yes. Sam [00:06:14] Could you say more about that? John [00:06:16] We'd love to hear more. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:06:17] So I, I said this in my interview with WAMC. So I've already talked about this in a recorded context, but I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll share it again with you, which is that I didn't know very much about unions growing up. My parents were upper middle class, professional type people. Unions weren't a part of my consciousness, really, until I began my Ph.D. at the University of Michigan, where all the graduate students were members of the graduate employees organization are all the graduate student instructors. When you taught, you became a member of the union. They had been unionized since the late seventies, and all the new graduate students were invited to attend the meeting in the first semester I was there. And I didn't know much about it, but all my friends were going and they invited me to come. So I went and it, it wasn't immediately clear to me what the union was for, or what I, why I needed it. And I remember speaking with a friend who is smarter than me and she said like, “Well, the union is what gets us good health care.” And I said, “Well, Liz, shouldn't we have nationalized single payer health insurance here in America?” This was during the Obamacare wars and our pre Obamacare discussions of the possibility of health insurance reform. And she said, “well, yes, Ruth, we should, but this is America and we don't. And it's the union that ensures that people have the kinds of things that they should have but don't.” And so I was I never was especially strongly involved in the graduate employees organization at Michigan, but I was sort of on the periphery, and I would attend the meetings when they were negotiating the contract. On one memorable occasion, I went to several meetings to discuss kind of whether we should accept this contract, what we should push for, what we should be willing to compromise on. And so, so I was involved the whole way the whole time I was there, and though never especially closely involved. And it was a great experience. The union was the reason that we could afford rent that we made enough to live on. Not a lot of money. Not a, not a comfortable living. But I wasn’t desperately concerned as to how I was going to get through the month. And that was because of the union. And so I, when I came to Skidmore, I, you know, a private college that charges that astronomical tuition, I was shocked and appalled to see the level of financial hardship under which many of my colleagues, non tenure track faculty were living so early in my time here. I got to know somewhat randomly a part time faculty member who has since left Skidmore. But while they were here, I got to know them just a bit. And they disclosed to me that they were the parent of two children and their partner – they were in a partnership, but their partner was not, not able to, to have a job for reasons. And they, they were on WIC benefits: women, infant, and children supplemental nutrition assistance benefits. Like it's not food stamps, but it's, it’s a corollary of the food stamp program. And I was just amazed that Skidmore College, which charges so much in tuition, has faculty that are qualifying for these federal safety net programs that are intended for the poorest Americans. And as we know, America has such a limited set of safety net programs, totally inadequate to the needs that people actually have. And so to see that a Skidmore faculty member was qualifying for those programs was absolutely amazing to me and really has stuck with me over the years. Even though this person has left the college, you know, and has moved on to bigger �and better things. And, and I don't know how common that experience is, although I don't believe that they're the only person. But it just has been really, that has really stuck with me as, as part of why I wanted to get involved in union organizing. Sam [00:10:45] Gotcha. Thank you. And so you came to Skidmore and you see this around you, these people who are, you know, providing basically what Skidmore is effectively selling, living in very dire straits. And you've got this background in, you know, the union at Michigan. And so I was wondering what the kind of start of that process really looked like. You know, where you come to the school and you're like, okay, we can make this better. Perhaps, maybe I can bring what my knowledge is of the unions to Skidmore? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:11:22] Sure. So you're asking about how I took that as experiences and I started actualizing. Sam [00:11:29] How did how did it go from experience to the physical? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:11:32] Sorry. Yes. So, I mean, I don't want to overestimate how quickly I came to the conclusion that we needed a union. I would say that my initial approach was to, to look out for myself. And I, both my partner and I took all the steps that you're supposed to take when what you want to do is get somewhat converted to the tenure track. I was, I always wanted a tenure track job. That was my dream. I was very ambitious in achieving it, and I was deeply heartbroken by my inability to get the job I wanted. So at first I was simply seeking tenure track employment elsewhere, as was my partner. For various reasons, that didn't immediately work out for us. So as I got to know a few more non tenure track faculty at Skidmore, I began to see how widespread some of these problems were. And I would say one, another kind of moment of, of a turning point moment for me would be when I realized how much of what my department, the English department, did was teach First-Year writing classes and how everyone who taught those classes almost was not only non tenure track but also on these short term terminal contracts, short term contracts of just one or two years that come to an abrupt end at the end, and that the college had, and the department had no long-term plan for how to fill those roles. And in fact, although it was extremely notable problem in my department, it was, in fact, a pattern widely across campus in many different areas. I would say that there were some early meetings that were not intended to foment union activity, but that had that result. So in the 2017-18 school year, the Center for Leadership, Teaching and Learning, the CLTL, which was at that point run by Kristie Ford from Sociology, who has since left Skidmore, ran just a kind of meeting for non tenure track faculty at which we were simply encouraged to meet each other. And that in of itself was, it was, it was a shocking thing because many of us were sort of led to believe that there were very few non tenure track faculty at Skidmore. But all of a sudden, we, we had booked the test kitchen at the dining hall and like it was standing room only like nobody could sit because there were so many of us. So simply just discovering how many of us there were and how many of us had many of the same concerns was totally eye opening. where things went from there on the union, you're probably wondering. Okay, so I would say that within a year or so of my being here, there was a small group of us that had, you know, basically said, like, this is, this is bullshit. We we've tried asking nicely. It got nowhere. The college’s lying about stuff. How many of us there are the college’s stonewalling our requests for extremely basic, straightforward information. We need a union. So at that point, I'm actually not entirely sure because I wasn't as strongly involved then as I am now. But we reached out to Sean Collins at SEIU, the Service Employees International Union, and we reached out to them because SEIU has a sort of specialty in academic workers, particularly contingent faculty, and they represent non tenure track faculty at campuses all over upstate New York and in �Vermont and in surrounding states. They were called the Faculty Forward Division. I don't know that it's like sort of called that anymore, but, but we reached out to Sean. He gave us some practical advice about how this works. And then we began speaking to our colleagues seeking signatures on these union authorization cards. The way that putting together a union tends to work in the early phases is that you you operate in secret and you, you know, basically get people to sign on to say that like, yes, I support unionization for us. And there are these little cards. They're like an index card. And, you know, you sign it, you have your contact info. And so we did that a lot and it went incredibly slowly because for many reasons, one, people are scared. People are terrified to support union activity because they have seen the movies and they know that people who try to organize unions tend to get fired. They I think also people are to a, to a far lesser extent than, than their fear. People are a little ideologically suspicious of unions. Again, they've seen the movies. There's just decades of anti-union propaganda in this country that has been unbelievably successful at convincing people that collective action is suspicious, that it undermines individual autonomy and agency, that it is an arm of organized crime. The number of people that randomly bring up Jimmy Hoffa to me is just absolutely staggering and kind of horrifying, you know? So it was challenging. It was it was challenging. Yeah. John [00:17:27] You used the word hypocrisy speaking on the part of the college. And could you maybe speak a little bit to how their policy of the colleges really comes through in, in non tenure track faculty specifically you mentioned that 1 to 2 year contracts for initiation or not initiation but rather preliminary English courses. And in those phases of learning they're likely very important. And how important are forming lasting relationships with professors and how did you initially see that hypocrisy coming through? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:18:08] Sure. So your questions about how do I sense the hypocrisy of the college. So I can answer it in several different ways. So one is that when I was hired, I was given a one year contract and my department chair, to her credit, was very honest that she's like, we can give you no more employment than that. And I said, okay, I that that's that is the best offer I have right now. I'll take it. And yet it became clear to me within a couple of months of working here that there was no other plan for the teaching other than continued reliance on short term contracts. So as I speak to you right now, I have no idea whether I'll be teaching at Skidmore in the fall. Now, that's because I don't have a contract and I and I won't have one for months. My department has absolutely no plans in place to bring in anyone else to do the teaching I do. The teaching that I'm doing this year. It will need to be done next year. There is no short term quality to what I'm doing and this is a constant, this is a really persistent pattern across the college. So, for example, Skidmore will say things like we only use non tenure track faculty to fill short term instructional needs. That is false. That is rampantly false. We, they'll say things like we only use terminal contracts when we anticipate that instructional need going away. Totally false. Totally, totally false. They'll say things like we, you know, the say. They'll say vague things like we really value our non tenure track faculty. Whenever someone says that they value you, that's a way of not paying you, right? If they valued me, they’d pay me enough to live on so they can say that they value me all they want, but they don't actually value me because I know what's in my paycheck. Sam [00:20:12] Yeah. And so I was wondering, you mentioned the kind of the fear that the propaganda, you know, to push people away from unions. But you also mentioned that, you know, my dad's in academia. So I know a little bit about the processes of, of how you you know, my dad actually applied to Skidmore when I was a young very young. He didn't get the job. But, you know, these jobs are few there are few jobs in academia across the country, across all departments. You know, people are struggling to find places to work. �And they come to a school like Skidmore and they, you know, they're there. People might be straight forward like, Oh, we can only sign you for one year. You know, it's not ideal, but hey, like, I don't have any other options, so this is what I'm going to do. But people like that, you know, might they might buy into the fear because they, they don't have very many other options and they're worried about getting fired. So I was wondering what you would say to a person who's maybe kind of struggling to, to know what they should do in this situation. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:21:18] Yeah. I don't have to answer that in a sort of hypothetical way. I've had that conversation many times, and what I would say is that it's going to be pretty hard for the college to replace you quite as quickly as they claim that they can replace you so that there are costs to doing a search that the college doesn't want to incur, and that if we stand together, we're much more powerful. Like we, yeah, one person can be fired in a retaliatory fashion. That's easy. Skidmore has done it before. It's, it's not possible to, to fire everyone at the same time. And that's the basic logic behind unionization, behind collective action, is that when you get together, you're much, much, much more powerful than you would be otherwise. And I would say with respect to the the sort of the scarcity of jobs nationwide, you're, you are absolutely correct. But there's an important second point to that, which is that there isn't a scarcity of jobs. There is a scarcity of good jobs. So, in fact, there's tons of jobs in higher ed. They're just so, they pay so little that they're not actually jobs. They're sort of hobbies. And it's a, it's, there's a, there's, a there's as much like in industries across the country and in across the sort of, you know, you know, across similar places in the world like Europe and and and elsewhere, you know, just working conditions are just getting worse. Like there is no actual shortage of jobs. There's a decline in working conditions. Sam [00:23:04] Yeah. And so you, you were a major part of the decision to unionize. And you see these, you know, these problems everywhere. Do you feel that a union is you know, it might be extremely helpful to people, but do you feel that it is the solution to these problems? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:23:25] So there's a part of me that still is the same asshole that said that unions were inadequate because what we need is nationalized single payer health care, Liz, and that the union was a sort of Band-Aid measure. So, you know, that's the world I want to live in, but I don't live in that world. And we're not getting any closer to that world. And I don't think that I’m going to see it. So. And now having tried to having just so laboriously finally after everything and at great cost to my physical, mental and emotional health, participated in successful union, union campaign. I am, I can't imagine anything harder and, and I just like the idea that this is somehow inadequate. I mean, it's, it may be inadequate, but like it, it was so challenging. And so yeah, on the one hand, yes, I do. I think that unions are a significant part of the solution. Obviously, they're inadequate to like the world's problems. But I, considering labor, labor conditions is just absolutely must be done. And the union provides us with a legal framework to do that. Sam [00:24:49] Yeah. And so you've, you've really come in, you know, these this process has been way harder, likely than it should be. And you guys have finally, you know, voted to unionize in the past couple of months. And so I was wondering, what does the future look like for you? You know, you mentioned that you still, you're unsure about what your own future looks like. You know, like you mentioned, they're not, they need what you're offering. So, you know, I was just wondering what the what the future looks like for the union. �Prof Ruth McAdams [00:25:19] So the future of the union will involve collective bargaining negotiations with the college. So we are in the process of determining our bargaining priorities, selecting a negotiating committee, and putting that together to begin negotiating with the college in earnest early in 2023. That process will be lengthy, over a year. No doubt. Perhaps closer to 18 months or two years, it's going to be a very long road. It'll, it'll be a highly collaborative process involving people, non tenure track faculty from across the campus. So the, the, and the college's working conditions with respect to not tenure track faculty have to be sort of frozen in time during the bargaining process so that could be a long time. The future for me personally, again, I, I don't have a contract for the fall. I will be teaching here in the fall, though, unless I'm retaliated against for my union organizing activity, because I simply, the department simply doesn't have another plan. They'd have to, they'd have to get rid of me. And I think that one ironic detail is that when you speak to the NPR affiliate and the Times Union about your working conditions, you actually become harder to fire because, it's because everyone knows what's going on there, namely retaliation. So I've taken that approach very seriously and have made myself extremely visible in the in the public eye for for that reason. So yeah. John [00:27:11] I know that you mentioned in your time at Michigan when you learned initially about unions from your friend and your friend mentioned this is America and that's why you can't have these health care plans that would be most suitable for non tenure track faculty and people with similar type jobs where they're being underpaid for quality, living at Michigan with that larger population. And I know you mentioned that there's strength in numbers in a union and that you can't fire everyone. Do you think that you're face and have you faced struggles in having a smaller population of people to get behind a union and to really make a change? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:27:55] So the question is whether being in a sort of smaller union environment here vis a vis the larger one I was at at Michigan, what implications that would have? So I think you're, I think you're right. On the one hand, being smaller has the real advantage of having fewer people to talk to, which, again, I, I'm just so moved by the people who are able to organize a union on a bigger scale because it was incredibly hard with the, with a small size right now. But yes, I do think that there's a potential for our ultimately having slightly less power than than we had when when there were thousands of us. I you know, when I was at Michigan, there was one very famous anecdote that the year before I started my degree there, they had negotiated a contract, and the negotiations were in sort of a stalemate between the graduate students and the and the union university until the graduate student union called in the support of the construction workers who were working on the Michigan football stadium and the Michigan football stadium construction workers put down their tools for one morning and we had a contract. And so you have to think about labor as being these coalitions of solidarity. And one of the things that has been incredibly moving about being involved in this project has been getting kind of invited to all these capital area labor events, a whole community and set of events that I had no idea existed prior to about May of this year. There are people across the area who are, you know, really heavily involved in, in, in, in union stuff and interested in building coalitions of solidarity. Some of these people are traditional blue collar union people, construction workers of various kinds and related jobs, but also people like K-12 educators, people - the, there's a big representation from the postal workers at the capital area labor events and all these other unionized workforces. So I think that the potential to call in support from from, those people is really important. And that's, that's how it works, right? That that is how it's supposed to work. We support each other. �John [00:30:25] That's great. In your experience overseas at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, correct. Did you notice any talk of unionization? And do you think that there's any real difference between being in America and trying to unionize and being in the U.K. or Scotland, rather? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:30:46] Yes. So the question is about whether there's a difference between American union experiences and those in the U.K. So, yes, there is. And it has to do with the law. And there's also dramatically huge differences between individual U.S. states. So when I, we won our union on like September 27th of this year or the next day, I went to a conference. Bad timing. And I got to the conference and I was I was telling, you know, my friends at other campuses about it and they're like, Well, that's nice, Ruth. We live in a “right to work” state. We can't like or like. Ohio passed a law that explicitly bars higher education faculty from unionizing. It's like that's the purpose of the law. So, I mean, the, the legal, the legal framework is ridiculously relevant, ridiculously applicable. And again, like, it was incredibly hard to do what we did here. I cannot imagine how much harder it would be in a, you know, state that we're at or a country that has worse labor laws. In the U.K. - I don't - you know, this, I lived in Scotland during the period of my life kind of before I knew a whole lot about unions. So I actually don't know a huge amount about that. I will say that from my time in Turkey is that those union organizers are really tough and those people are fighting the good fight under really, really bad circumstances. And they amaze me. Sam [00:32:23] That's great. I was wondering so speaking about kind of like the laws and the process of unionization and specifically in Skidmore, you know, New York, obviously, you can, it does have you do have the ability to unionize. But I was wondering if there were any specific aspects of the laws or the process that you would really like to change, if you could, to maybe make that process easier for people because, you know, even though it's possible here, it is obviously not an easy thing to do. And I think you and a lot of other people would really agree that it should be. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:33:04] So, so the question is whether there are laws or practices with respect to and why labor law that I would be interested in changing. And the answer is yes. One thing that absolutely amazed and deeply horrified me was the way that the election took place. So the election took place by mail. And what that meant was that the National Labor Relations Board office in Albany mailed ballots to the addresses provided by the college of all the non tenure track faculty. The college is responsible for providing the NLRB with the addresses. The list of addresses that the college provides the NLRB was riddled with errors, riddled with errors to a truly horrifying extent. What that meant was that the organizers had to identify those errors, contact the individual faculty, be like, Hey, what's your postal address? Get back to me right now. Send that address to the National Labor Relations Board. Rely on them to send a duplicate ballot to the correct address. Wait for the entirely underfunded U.S. Postal Service to deliver that ballot to the address. Then when people receive the ballots, there's, it's an incredibly complicated system. There's the inner ballot that you have to mark very, very carefully. Right. Then you have to put that in the inner envelope, seal it. Sign. No, not there. No, you don't sign over that one. You seal it up. Then you put the inner envelope inside the postal envelope. You seal that up. You sign over the seal with your cursive signature spanning the upper, the top of the envelope in the bottom the envelope so that over the seal. And then you send that back. And then you pray that the entirely under-funded U.S. Postal Service will get that ballot to the National Labor Relations Board within this two week window. Every part of this process is just like a wink and a prayer. There were so many people who I know voted. They told me they voted. I believe them. They don't. They're not lying. But the ballots didn't make it, �because every part of the process is nightmarish. There were people who forgot to sign in the place they were supposed to sign. Those ballots didn't count. There were people who mixed up the envelope and put the outer envelope inside the inner envelope. Those ballots didn't count. There was a, one ballot, and this is true, that got wet in the mail. So the external envelope was visibly damp. What this meant was that we could not know whether the internal envelope was damp and if the internal envelope was damp, whether the ballot inside the internal envelope was damp. And because we could not therefore guarantee that the anonymity of the person who submitted the ballot could be guaranteed, that ballot got disqualified for no reason of the person's own. I happen to know exactly whose ballot that was, and I happen to know exactly which way that person voted. And I happen to know that that person would have absolutely no problem tweeting it out. That person was not at all concerned about their anonymity. But and again, it was entirely possible that the ballot wasn't even wet. It was the external layer was wet. So this was just a nightmare. I mean, I don't know exactly what the ideal way to do this election is, but that's not it. Right? That's not it. John [00:36:42] Wow. That's a very interesting story. I mean, it seems like they put every barrier in place possible. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:36:48] That is correct. They put every barrier in place possible. Sam [00:36:51] Sounds a lot like voting and in elections in the country. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:36:56] Yes, it is. The NLRB is a failure by design. It is designed to sort of. It is it exists to give us a way to think that we have the option to unionize, but also to make that process as hard as possible. Sam [00:37:09] We actually, we actually learned a little bit about the creation of the NLRB in class recently, which I thought was kind of funny. But, and you mentioned that you weren't really sure about a replacement system for voting per se, but do you think that there's any kind of room for maybe changing the NLRB or perhaps there should be a better kind of, I don't know the word, like overseer of the process. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:37:43] So the so the question is whether the NLRB itself could be reformed or its duties overseen by a different and better organization? I would say that probably, yes. But again, this is America. Those positions on the NLRB are appointed by the president. So, for example, early in the process we filed, we went public with our intention to unionize. The college attempted to argue that all full time non tenured track faculty were ineligible for unionization because we were all managerial. What, what or who we were managing, they never explained. But they basically said this entire thing must be shut down. And they used that claim to achieve concessions from us on other fronts, because they knew and we knew that if we went to a hearing, that would - because the NLRB is dramatically underfunded and experiencing massive delays - that would delay our union vote for months to years. If we appealed to beyond the local board, that would delay for years and that would also kick us over to the national NLRB, which is currently occupied by a number of Trump appointees who have a fundamental opposition to the idea of organized labor. So basically because the process does not work, because the process has been so captured by the political right that, that implicates the whole process. And it means that we could have, I mean, the college's argument about the the ostensible managerial status of a full time entity faculty is a baseless argument that has absolutely no merit whatsoever. But in order to fight that in the courts, fighting that in the courts would �have been a Pyrrhic victory at best for us, so we couldn't pursue it. So, yes, the NLRB is deeply flawed, and the only way to fix it is, step one, elect better politicians. John [00:39:49] In the scope of Skidmore College. I know you've noticed. I know you've mentioned being stonewalled for basic information inaccurate addresses, and it's clear that this is all information that the college has easy access to and could distribute to you. Do you think that in a private institution like Skidmore, it's supposed to be a community, but in this private institution, does that give the college a lot more leverage in, in preventing your, your organizing activities? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:40:27] Public sector salaries are another story. Your question is whether us being a small private institution allows that and in a quote, community allows the college more leverage in preventing us from getting access to info. I would say basically yes is the answer to that. Public sector salaries are often a matter of public record. That's not the case at Skidmore. Yeah. So, yes. Sam [00:40:52] Right. And I think going off of that, you know, before this interview, I was kind of reading through some of the letters that were put out by the administration as the process went along. And, you know, I feel like that after hearing what you've had to say, the letters aren't exactly very reflective of how, you know, Skidmore kind of paints itself as being very open to discussion. And, you know, having heard what you had to say about kind of them labeling you guys as managerial positions when obviously, you know, what does that mean? What do you think could be done to maybe make Skidmore position kind of more transparent? Because I feel like those those letters would have you believe that, you know, they're right along here for the process. We're open to talk, like whatever. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:41:46] So your question is, how was Skidmore’s communication - could have been more transparent. Yeah, I would say that the college really bungled it. I the whole time we were organizing, there was a persistent tension between the organizers who were kind of on team speed and team discretion. And I thought that I, you know, shifted between those camps at various points. We did need to be underground, but at a certain point, that's just very, very, very hard to do. And, you know, occasionally an email will go across a server that it shouldn't have. And there have been there were other slip ups. You know, occasionally you're talking about someone outside the, the Case Center and you realize there's a dean standing behind you who could have been listening. But was he? You know? I would say that when we went public, what I, what I realized to my total shock and amazement, was that the administration had no idea what we were up to, that we really did catch them by surprise, which amazed me because I thought I had been unbelievably brazen. It turns out that dean was not listening and in fact was paying zero attention to you and didn't know your name prior to the point at which you started talking to the press. So I would say that Skidmore’s handling of the situation it was. I can't imagine that they would look back on it with, with pride. I don't know what they think, though, so you'd have to ask them. I would say that the college,s, the college used some extremely familiar anti-union talking points, though, and I would say that after the initial kind of confusion phase, they did figure out precisely what they wanted to say and they said it. And those were the same points that they use to oppose unions at Starbucks, at Amazon, at the auto workers, everywhere that’s trying to unionize. They use the same arguments against unionization, I would say. And one thing that I think particularly horrified me was the way that the college used a kind of rhetoric of individual agency and autonomy to discredit collective action. A classic thing to say is that, oh, the union organizers are bullies. They want you to sign these cards. They're pushy. They're pushy and they're bullies. So, you know, setting aside the fact that, as we all know, like people who accuse �others of being bullies are usually the bullies themselves. That's how bullying has been coopted in the discourse. But setting that aside, I mean, there’s this emphasis that like individual agency is this absolute highest thing was extremely familiar to me and but, but very disappointing, I would say. I am a scholar of 19th century British literature and my area of expertise is Victorian fiction. And so, for example, the work of Dickens is in my area of expertise and you know, Dickens, Dickens came up with all these arguments and he made them a lot better than the college does. And, you know, the, the sort of the sameness of those arguments over time was really striking to me. Sam [00:44:48] Yeah. And I think maybe speaking to the sameness and the kind of unawareness of what was going on. You know, you mentioned the it was surprising to you that the college didn't really, wasn't really picking up on the hints of of discontent. And, you know, I think that kind of I feel like having been at a few academic places, there's usually a kind of disconnect between the faculty, the administration and the students also. And I feel like that, you know, looking around campus in recent years, you know, I’m a junior, I've been here I was here during the COVID times. And when all that the Title IX stuff is really flaring up. And I can sense a kind of similarity between all of that, between the faculty's frustrations and the students frustrations and sort of the kind of, you know, we're supposed to be this small community, but then you see the kind of sameness between the school’s responses to like Amazon and Starbucks, these humongous corporations. And so I, I guess where I was going with this was I was wondering, you know, what can be done in terms of the kind of common ground between the students and the faculty, and what do you think should be done in terms of kind of maybe bringing the administration a little bit down, not like pushing them down, but, you know, kind of bringing us all on the same sort of playing field. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:46:23] Great. So your question is how we can bridge gaps between students and faculty and also between everyone in the administration. So I have, I have a lot of feelings on this question. I would say first that I've been reluctant to discuss my working conditions with my students because it's a little bit embarrassing and because it's not their fault and because I want them to have a really positive feeling toward their life, toward their lives, and toward their, toward Skidmore. I look back on my college years fondly, and I hope that my students develop lifelong, fond memories of their time in college. And so I'm sort of reluctant to burst that bubble in certain ways, although, you know, perhaps I, perhaps I shouldn't be. I would say that I've been incredibly moved by the level of student support for our, for our movement. It's, it's honestly like brings me to tears. It's, it's very moving. As for how to, you know, bring, bring that kind of administration to, into better touch with reality, I would say that I don't have a great answer to that question, but that the collective bargaining process is a legal structure that requires them to negotiate. And so I don't frankly need to get along with the administration. I don't particularly need or want to be very friendly with them at receptions. I actually don't think that the model of community is the best way to describe Skidmore. Skidmore as a workplace. It is my workplace, and although I do like many of my colleagues a lot, I don't think that getting along socially should be the ultimate measure of whether we are succeeding here. So I would say that I don't I don't particularly care that the administration comes to see things my way. I'm just delighted that I'll be able to negotiate them, negotiate with them through the structures provided by collective bargaining. John [00:48:41] In terms of relationships between non tenure track and tenure track faculty, how much support do you really see from tenure track faculty and is it in their best interest to support non tenure track faculty? �Prof Ruth McAdams [00:48:56] So the question is what the level of support is that we've received from tenure track faculty and whether it's in their best interests to support us. So I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of support that the tenure track faculty offered to us immediately. The morning that we went public with our campaign, there was already a petition circulating among the tenure track faculty in support of our movement. And there was a, there were a lot of signatures on there. I was delighted and also surprised. Definitely surprised. I would say that I have some theories as to kind of what was going on there. I think that the, I think that the non tenured track faculty unionization campaign went public at a moment in which overall faculty satisfaction with the administration was at a historic low for a variety of reasons. So I think that we benefited from that. As to whether it's in their best interests, this is a contentious issue. I would say that, that, yes, it is in their best interests to be supportive of us. And I'll give you an example. So, for example, there are tenured faculty, tenure track faculty who lament that Skidmore is hiring fewer and fewer tenure track faculty and more and more non tenure track faculty. And those faculty, though the people who feel that way wish that there were fewer of us and that there were more tenure track faculty. And what I say to those people whenever I have a chance, which is not all that often, but does occasionally happen, is that the reason that the college is hiring fewer and fewer tenure track faculty and more and more non tenure track faculty is obvious. It is that we make so much less money. We are so much cheaper and so much easier to fire. So if you, colleague, would like to reduce the college's support, use of non tenure track faculty, one thing that you could advocate for would be like a $25,000 raise for us because that would take the edge off why we are so much more desirable to hire. That argument is not always super successful with those people. I think those people are a little bit disingenuous, and what they're really saying, and aren't always very good at listening. But I do think that, and shoring up and ensuring some minimum standards for the working conditions of non tenure track faculty will mean that the college has less of an incentive to rely on us. And I would just observe that the non tenure track faculty unionization campaign went public in April of this year. We had our election in September. Over the summer, the college decided to hire a huge number of tenure track faculty. Those searches are in process. The way that searches work is that it takes about a year to hire someone. So already, even before we had successfully unionized, the college was moving to hire more tenure track faculty. I think that that is the best possible proof of my argument, and I think that the future will bear out that if you can't simply pay faculty next to nothing to do the same work, perhaps you will have less of an incentive to do that. Sam [00:52:18] I think going off of what you're talking about with tenure track faculty, both my parents are teachers. My dad's a professor, he's tenure. But my mom has taught at, at the college level a couple of times as kind of like an adjunct professor, but, you know, it’s, it’s a really hard field. And I was wondering if maybe you could speak on the kind of difficulties of, of the whole tenure track concept and maybe that that itself might need some kind of reform in terms of being, it feels to me from kind of an outsider perspective to be sort of kind of arbitrary and, you know, kind of just you as the person being hired don't really have a lot of say in the matter, I feel like. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:53:08] So your question is about the tenure system, whether it is sustainable, whether it needs reform. I would say that the tenure system has been subject to a variety of outstandingly excellent critiques. The tenure system is for years supported abusers, for years encouraged the worst behavior among faculty. It has, it is, it is notoriously problematic. That said, what the tenure system achieves, at its best, is that it allows faculty the academic freedom they need to pursue unpopular topics. And I would just say that what we see in red states that have eliminated tenure for public sector professors is a completely unsurprising crackdown on things like critical race theory, on �things like professors who study transgender issues. Women and faculty of color have been targeted by those cuts. So the tenure system is problematic, but it provides something that needs to be provided, which is academic freedom and freedom from political critiques on knowledge production. That said, you know, I personally, as a person who has been kept out of the tenure system against my will, I would love to be a tenure track faculty member, a tenured faculty member. I'm highly deserving of it. I am not going to cry too many tears at the death of tenure. And I think that we need to think about models of employment and models of, of education that encourage both the freedom that faculty need to do their job, but also accountability toward their students. And so I would say, I think that the union model is a really strong model. In that sense, I think it, I think that it provides the kinds of support that faculty need, but also the encouragement to be accountable toward what the needs of students actually are. Sam [00:55:17] So you would say that you think that perhaps unions can be kind of an option in terms of replacing, you know, tenure provides protection for people to say things that need to be said, but it also provides protection for people who are not deserving of that protection. And I was just trying to reiterate that you'd think that unions could possibly provide an option. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:55:42] Yes, I would say the answer is yes. But I would also say that the tenure system is not going to die. It's going to wane, as it has. And it's not going to be wholesale replaced. It's going to be supplemented. So, yeah. John [00:56:00] From a student’s perspective, I will say often times if collectively a class has, takes issue with the way that a professor is teaching or professors action, then the dialog will go something along the lines of, Oh, he or she, whoever they identify, they don't care because they're tenured. So they don't care what, what will come of their, of their actions. I guess that that's the downfall of the tenure track system. And I agree that I think the union, the unionization system, it seems like it is, it's difficult to get it rolling. And I guess part of my my curiosity about it, you've mentioned a dean behind you and you're trying to discuss the early stages of unionization and how much how much do the deans and the and the administration really benefit from preventing your unionization? Why are they at the root of this situation? Is it just comes down to money? Do they make more money if you aren't unionized and they get to pay you less? And where is, where's the money going that we, we get from these $70,000 tuitions? Really. Prof Ruth McAdams [00:57:18] Great. So your question is, what do the deans have to gain by suppressing the union movement? And where where are your tuition dollars going? Yeah. Okay. One thing that I think is really important to understand as a, as a student and it took me a while to understand this as a faculty member, is that, in fact, the deans aren't even running the show. The show is run by the board. The board are a bunch of rich people that bankroll Skidmore, that oversee our funds, and they have particular views. They are absolutely concerned, entirely and exclusively with the financial health of the institution. That is what they care about. They don't care about anything else. I would say that even the deans are -- although I don't like all these people -- they are themselves workers who are beholden to systems that they didn't design and wouldn't defend. I would say that the, the control of the, the, the institutional control exercised by the board is very disturbing and is one of the root problems here. Not the only one, but, but one of them. Sam [00:58:37] And yeah. And so I think that maybe to kind of bring this to a close. You mentioned earlier that you felt like, you know, you were maybe a little bit cautious to talk to students about this sort of thing. But I think from my perspective. From what I've talked to �about my friends, about coming here during COVID and experiencing all these things that you might find that, you know, students are more willing to talk about this sort of thing than, you know, you might think. And so I was just wondering in that regard and in kind of context of the whole country, you know, what do you think should be done to kind of start these kind of conversations about dissatisfactions with, and not just dissatisfactions, but looking to improve our surroundings? Prof Ruth McAdams [00:59:31] I think that's a great question. So your, your question is about what we can do to kind of get these conversations rolling in the future. I want to go back and say that, like, I think that I was reluctant to talk to my students about unionization before we went - obviously, earlier in the process, and at this point, I'm pretty open about it. It comes in handy. My students were like: “Can you cancel class the Monday before Thanksgiving?” And I'm like: “No, I can't. And you see, I am, I just was involved in unionizing the non tenure track faculty, so I have to follow every single rule. And the dean says that I can't cancel class.” And the students look at me like “that is a legitimate answer. I will stop bothering you about this. I will not ask again. Thank you for your answer.” So it was helpful. I would say, I don't, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. I think that, I think that, I think that we just need to be really honest about what work is. You know, my when I was growing up, my parents both worked a lot, and they still work a lot, and they're both very satisfied and happy in their jobs. They both have had jobs that have been fulfilling for them and have offered opportunities for advancement. And I am totally convinced that if I had gotten a job that offered me opportunities for advancement, that was fulfilling to me, that I would work all the time too. I think that that is, I can see the temptation of that, in a way. But since I never got that kind of job, I think about things quite differently. And I think that we need to be honest that like, work is work and should be fairly compensated, even if it is a, quote, good job. You know, the, the “do what you love” mentality, the idea that if you, if you get a job that you love, you'll never work a day in your life. That is some of the most nefarious bullshit. You know, every job that you, it is a job, and it should be fairly compensated. And I think that, that, I think that, just like getting that through our thick heads is challenging. And I still find myself struggling with it, to be honest with you. And, and, and it's hard, it's hard to, it's hard to say to students, too. Because I teach, I've taught twice a one-credit course called “The English Major and Beyond” for graduating senior English majors. And the idea is to help students prepare to take their first professional steps after graduation. So we do things like workshops, resumes, and cover letters. We talk about interviewing skills and stuff like that. And one of the things I say to the students in that class is that my impression is that there are three things that many Skidmore graduates want out of their job. One, intellectual stimulation, two a sense of moral purpose. And three, a living wage. And I say to my students, you know, you should think about how you'd rank those three, because it can be hard to find all three of those in equal measure in a single job. And I feel very weird about this advice because firstly, the students hate it, like they don't want to hear that. And why would they? That's, it's horrible. What I'm saying to them is truly a horrible thing. It is a reflection of something very dark that I'm saying. On the other hand, it's the truth, and I don't see value in not telling the truth. I think this is one of my problems in life. I will answer your questions honestly, and this has gotten me into a lot of trouble in many contexts in my life. And I, I don't, I don't, I don't know what to say. Like, I think that, you know, it's not as though if someone had given me that advice, I would have, like, thought any differently, that I would have done anything differently than I did. I think that I was completely dead set on doing every single thing that I did, and no adult could have ever talked me out of any of it. Some of them tried. But I don't see the value in pretending as though anyone, regardless of their interests, regardless of their training, regardless of their GPA, can just waltz into a job that is intellectually stimulating, gives you a sense of moral purpose, and actually pays you a �living wage. I don't think there are jobs that provide those three things anywhere in the world in equal measure, and I think that just some honesty about that, that, has to be involved in this process. John [01:04:21] Yeah. I think that that's absolutely a great way to finish things off as we're reaching the end of our time. Sam [01:04:27] Yeah, that was wonderful. John [01:04:28] Yeah, that was a great conclusion. Sam [01:04:30] Thank you so much. Prof Ruth McAdams [01:04:31] Thank you both. Yeah, this has been fun. Sam [01:04:33] All right. Well, I think I think we'll end it there. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sam Stiefel '24 and John Sveen '24 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ruth McAdams Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:03:49 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ruth McAdams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Ruth M. McAdams is a Senior Teaching Professor in the English Department at Skidmore College, where she has taught courses in literature and writing since 2017. She is a scholar of Victorian literature with a PhD from the University of Michigan. She has written many articles for scholarly journals and has a book under contract with Edinburgh University Press. She grew up in Chicago, and has also lived in Philadelphia, Edinburgh (Scotland), Ann Arbor (MI), Atlanta, and Istanbul (Turkey), as well as Saratoga Springs. In her free time, she enjoys cooking, running, and playing the oboe. She was one of the lead organizers of the successful campaign to unionize Skidmore’s non-tenure-track faculty in September 2022. She is currently serving on the Negotiating Committee of Skidmore Faculty Forward, SEIU Local200 United. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/be3d11da4d31402361d4d3a49f4d9070.png e68324fba5645bc4c24155098ef80269 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/1f2e0ba5b66caf8530d73ce86f0ebc64.mp3 f9f2620c062ba2aa4784da2671be9b60 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/a2919d894375fef3fea1efd2c113e1de.pdf e27e92ed12e6e1ad4c5f328b25ea4a27 PDF Text Text Narrator: Sandie Carner-Shafran Interviewers: Max Chelso ’24 and Sophia Delohery ‘25 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: November 2, 2022 Max [00:00:01] Today's date is November 2nd, 2022. This is Max Chelso speaking. Sophia [00:00:07] And I'm Sophia Delohery. Sandie [00:00:08] And I'm Sandy Carner-Shafran. Max [00:00:11] So Sandy, what was your experience growing up? Where did you-- where were you born? What was that like? Sandie [00:00:18] Well, I was born in actually Hartford, Connecticut. My parents divorced. My mom lived the rest of my life, I lived in Waterbury, Connecticut, and went to school there, East Farms Elementary, and then moved on to Crosby High School, where I ultimately graduated. It was during times of very, a lot of unrest. That was when there was forced segregation and that kind of stuff going on. Max [00:00:56] So this is a bit of background we have, but, since you became an educator, what was your schooling experience like? Sandie [00:01:03] Schooling-- my experience going to school? Okay. So I, I completed high school in 1968 and I went on to post junior college in Connecticut and I took a little over, but didn't quite get my associates. So, uh, cause I ran away and got married, silly girl. And that's where I stopped. Then I went on after I got married, kids came and I kind of went back to school and got a few more credits. Still didn't quite complete my associate's degree. Life got in the way. Max [00:01:47] So after that or during that, what was your first job? Sandie [00:01:52] Well, my first job then was basically helping out at my husband's family's hardware store. Um, that wasn't so much fun. I dusted and put orders away. Not much in intellectual, you know, stimulation. It was basically very rote. And my brother in law was the owner, so it wasn't like we could really change stuff there. So I didn't have a lot of power, which I seem to crave at times. Back in those days, it was the seventies. So, you know, there was a lot of changes going on. Vietnam, I had a child, the news was not good on at supper time. It was pretty, pretty devastating to watch and to hear. And a lot of stuff was going on. Max [00:02:50] So after that, what was your continuing experience with employment? Sandie [00:02:58] So I went on. Ultimately, we took over the store and then then stuff went down and we sold it back. I ended up, you know, I had three sons by then. My youngest was going back to school, was going to kindergarten, and it was time for me to get a job and get out of the house. And I happened to be at a Little League game and a colleague that I knew socially came up and said, “Hey, you like kids?” And I said “somewhat.” And they said, How about subbing at the BOCES in Saratoga? And I said, "Well, what does it involve?" And they said, "Well, a bunch of us carpool every day to go down. You could always ride with us. And basically you help with kids with disabilities and they're looking for help." And that was like in May. And so I said, "Okay." And they called me and I worked �every day in May and in June until school stopped. And then the exciting news was I just was in love with the kids, the staff, the whole idea, making a difference. The kids were incredible and they were pretty severely, profoundly, you know, handicapped at the time. We had a lot of wheelchairs, supine boards, all kinds of physical equipment to work with the kids. But I still loved it. I loved everything about it. Every day was an adventure with the kids and gym and cross-country skiing with kids that would have a seizure. But we'd pick them up and we'd keep going. And the kids laughed about it and sledding and doing all kinds of fun things, taking them swimming and everything. We even camped with some of the kids at one point later on in life. But the big thing was I wanted to continue and the principal, Mr. Crowley at the time, called me in, early in August, late in August and said, “I have a position at the BOCES. Would you consider working in special ed full time?” And we talked about it. My husband and I and I agreed to do it. I was real excited. So September 1982, I became a full time employee as a teacher aide at the SaratogaWashington-Warren-Hamilton-Essex BOCES on Henning Road was called the Meyer Center, and that started my career. I made $3,000 that year and I had full family matrix health care, which was unbelievable at the time. That was worth like $25,000, $28,000 back then for family health. And that was because I was working there. Didn't get a lot of money in my pocket, but that was wonderful. I think that eventually my husband started to get upset because I wasn't making any money and he kept telling people in our circle that, "Costs me money for her to work there," which he was right. You know, gas, different clothes, you know, timing. The kids were in school, so we didn't pay a sitter. But it was it wasn't very I could have made a lot more money if I worked in Corinth, where we lived at the grocery store. But my argument was I'm not making a difference stacking cans. I'm making a difference in the lives of the kids that I touch at school. And I'm going to make it worth it, for me, because I didn't want to quit and have to work at a grocery store. Sophia [00:06:37] Yeah. Sandie [00:06:37] That's when my union kicked in. Sophia [00:06:40] Yeah. It's great to hear how much, like, love you had for that job. Sandie [00:06:45] Well, I just adored the kids. I so. So I did, you know, we made costumes, we did all kinds of stuff. We…I made a huge Christmas Santa Claus costume for one of the big kids to wear one time. And the teacher that did, uh…rying to think of what they called it back then, he did woodworking and he taught, they built a big sleigh. So we took pictures with the kids, with Santa. And it was just always something, always something that was a little extra because these kids needed it and the staff just ate it up. Max [00:07:23] So I get the sense that you enjoyed your work. But were there any challenges be it at the daily level or at a more structural level that you faced on the job? Sandie [00:07:38] Well, there was. There wasn't enough hands. We did get breaks, but sometimes we ate lunch with the kids, which could be kind of, I would say, difficult because, you know, they had feeding problems and it wasn't the most hygienic or fun place to eat when you're trying to feed children that could choke or have a seizure and stuff. So there was times when our breaks were ignored. There was times when we were lifting without help. You know, there was a lot of stuff that, that kind of took some of the joy away from the actual job because you felt frustrated, you weren't being supported. We didn't have a lot of training back then. I can remember them bringing in some speaker one time, and it was an older woman that talked about, you know, prioritizing your jobs and, you know, kind of really not pertinent to what I needed to learn. I actually read my contract �thinking that that two pages was going to tell me something how to help a child in a seizure or help someone drink from a sippy cup that was cut out and, you know, different things to do my job better and it wasn't there. I was lucky that our occupational therapists, physical therapists and special ed teachers were more than willing to give us some help. But they had work to do and they couldn't. It would be like having another student because, you know, you just didn't know, some of the things we needed to do. And that was, that was becoming more frustrating to a group of us. A bunch of us got hired that September. So it was probably a good 20, 30 of us that got hired because special ed was just blowing up. They had done, I believe the Willowbrook decision had come down at that time, just prior, and they had to start taking some of these handicapped individuals out of the main big giant institutions and putting them in group homes and taking them to schools. So that kind of changed the landscape for schools. So we housed them in the main center. There was another center up in Glens Falls. We didn't merge those two centers until later on. But so there was some dissension in the troops, and there was some frustration as to how can we make it better, both financially and educationally, too. If I'm trained, I can do better with the kids. That was my main goal. Max [00:10:25] Uh, you gave some explanation about this, but could you just tell me exactly what the Willowbrook decision is? Sandie [00:10:31] Well, I'm not great with the year. We'll have to go back and think about when it was. But there was a big exposé that news gentlemen put on TV and it was Willowbrook was a downstate asylum for people with, supposedly were supposed to be unable to function in society. But when they went in and found the deplorable conditions they were unclothed, filthy, soiled, and many were put there because maybe they were just a little unruly back then. They were maybe maybe they're just delayed, but could certainly function in society with the correct supports. But they were-- it was a dumping ground. There were people there that had been there 30, 40 years from, you know, being a young child. It was really horrible. Horrible. And that's when it came out. And they broke up these asylums, and they weren't just there. They were in other places. And they made it a law that they had to put them in society, in smaller group homes, to be more like families was a wonderful thing. I actually had an aunt and they…an aunt through marriage that were put in one of those situations, because they were 14, and they were a little bit boy crazy, and they spent their life in an institution. We were little kids. We didn't know what was wrong with them. So it was it was profound as a teenager to know that if you didn't obey your parents, that they could send you a place like that. Scary. Sophia [00:12:29] Yeah, that's, that's really heavy. Sandie [00:12:31] Yeah. Sophia [00:12:32] And that had, I mean, you talked a little bit about this, but that caused, like, an influx of more kids on your work, and that kind of..? Sandie [00:12:38] Yeah, yeah. Ultimately, people couldn't hide their children. You know, so many families back then were probably embarrassed. Oh, our son can't talk, oh, our daughter is, you know, crippled or, you know, can't communicate. So they kept them home and they kept them in rooms and they didn't help them. They couldn't thrive in that condition. So then they ultimately, if something happened to the parents, these children were put into these asylums, it was an awful, awful thought. And quite frankly, if you put them into smaller group homes, as we know today, many of them thrive. They go on, they �do jobs in the community and become active citizens. They pay taxes, and…just like you and me. Max [00:13:32] So you touched upon this, and I can see how the situation would be exacerbated by this Willowbrook decision. But how was that you got into labor organizing? Sandie [00:13:46] Well, that's when I told you I was getting frustrated with lack of training, lack of just understanding that we needed a better pay because I wanted to stay in that job. That job was something that was dear to my heart. So I ended up going in early during the day, every day because of the carpooling. And I ended up sitting in the career and tech faculty room, a career and tech program. Those folks, mostly men, came out of the, quote, real world. They were teachers that became teachers, but originally they were welders and home builders. They had been out in the real world. They understood unions. They understood, you know, a contract. So they would talk about stuff and I would be listening and paying attention. And then they talked a little bit more about, oh, there's going to be a a picket in Stillwater or Mechanicville. We're going to meet out here. And I thought it was kind of important for me to go with them. So I would come down, get in the car with a group of us, and we'd go picket. Now, that was probably, you know, 40, 40 some years ago. I ended up working 38 years, but early on, so that was like the early eighties and NYSUT, New York State United Teachers Union, the officers would be there at those pickets, and they would be helping to organize people to get better contracts. And the more I heard about it, the more I realized that, why can't we fight to have a better contract, more pay so that I can keep this job? So I started asking more questions in the faculty room, getting more answers. And then one of the presidents came up to me and said, “Hey, you want to be a negotiator, be on the negotiating team?” And I said, "What is it?" And they told me, "Oh, you'll love it. It's fun." Negotiating is not fun unless you have a little bit of a legal mind. And evidently I did, and I enjoyed it. I got right in and learned the ropes and pleasantly surprised. Very frustrating at times. Sometimes they swore. And that was a little bit of a shocker. You know, I wasn't supposed to, you know, you don't swear at people in their suit jackets, but they were swearing and it was getting pretty rough in there at times. And I had taken a few workshops. The president and the union officers had taken me to a couple of things that NYSUT put on and how to bargain and stuff. And I started realizing that I had a voice and they could have a suit jacket on, but we had the same power when we came to the table, which really shook me up and made me stand a little taller. And I said, “okay.” And one time I just had about enough from the business agent. He kept telling us that teacher aides, secretaries, all of us that weren't teachers were similar and could not get paid any higher than a nurse, his wife, at the hospital. And I said, “but that's, that's apples and oranges. That has nothing to do with what I do.” I was working right alongside a teacher. I was teaching a small group. I was doing all things before they changed the rules, but I was doing everything, plus changing diapers, taking them to the nurse and doing all kinds of stuff. So I fought it, fought it. And the one time he started giving me a lot of trouble at the table and I said, “I'm…I'm just going to call a stop.” And I said, “I'd like to caucus. I'd like to stop.” So we did. And they said, "Why?" And I said, "Because I'm tired of your old song. Sing me a new tune." And I walked out. I couldn't believe I did it. I was like, "Oh, my, I'm in trouble now." But I wasn't. Because when I came back in, he was all red in the face. And we ended up getting a 29% raise, which was unheard of. Of course, 29%, which I wasn't really good at math, remember I told you that. 29% of nothing is not much. But it still put us on the map. It showed them that we weren't going to just go away with two pages of paper. We were we ended up with everything the same as the teachers, the same breaks, the same insurance, the same amount of sick time. And we got a raise. We even had longevity put in there, eventually, over the years, we got longevity. Eventually, down the road, we fought to get career enhancement for �education purposes. We could get money to take college courses. If we were preapproved and we passed with a good grade, we could get the money back. So that's sort of where it got me going. Sophia [00:19:17] Yeah, that's incredible. And what was the, like, what did you feel the public support was, at the time when you were doing this initial work? Like in the eighties? Sandie [00:19:27] Well, the public loved the, you know, the teachers back then. They loved anybody that worked with their kids, we used to get beautiful presents from the parents. And I have ceramic Christmas ornaments and all kinds of things from the parents. It was really good up until, you know, really recently when the whole country kind of got a little crazy before COVID and started blaming grades on teachers. And it really isn't. And of course, now it's far from that. And they've disenfranchized a lot of young people like yourselves from going into education because, you know, granted, you can get a lot more money out in the tech field or other places. You can get respect. But the bottom line is, can you love your job as much as I did? Probably not. I loved it. I love the kids, like I said. And I keep saying the kids made it worth it. You know, you could have a terrible day. You could feel like you had a bad hair day. You go in and I had a young man named Charlie. He had so many things going, you know, kind of against him. But every time he saw you, I'm telling you, he'd say, "Oh, Miss C., you look beautiful today!" And your day just instantly became great. The kids would say they were sorry if they had a bad day. It just was like if one little boy couldn't draw five, couldn't draw five, and then all of a sudden one day he did a five. And I cried, because he was so excited. He wrote fives, like, almost all day. He just was so excited. And I told my kids when I came home, my sons, and they actually…my ten year old came to school, you could bring your child to school back then for, and he was so impressed and he said, "I'm never going to feel upset again about something I can't do when I see how hard those kids work to just do their alphabet or to even stand up at the bulletin board. I'll never complain again, Mom." So, that tells you something. Sophia [00:21:43] Yeah. And can you tell us a little bit more? I'm curious about how COVID has impacted the work that you're doing, but also the work that, like, teaching assistants are doing in the classroom. Sandie [00:21:56] Well, during the first wave, I was in the building March 16th. That's when it all started coming down. And then we were told on the 17th to pack it up and go home. And then we had to report online through Zoom, Google Meet, whatever the principal decided at the time. And we had to meet every day and we tried to meet the kids that way. Some kids, I worked at that point, I was working with high school kids more, middle school, high school, and some of them were in classrooms with numbers six to two to one, four to two to one, which means they were severely impacted, emotionally disturbed. Some students needed a lot of support from adults. They were bright. Don't get me wrong, they're very, very smart kids. But they had a lot of baggage and a lot of issues. So they would come. I was working in the in-school suspension room, which is an awful nice sounding place. We called it the alternative learning environment. Kids would come to me from the entire school and get help. So now they're home. And you could see through the Zoom that some places, some kids were sleeping on couches and that's where they were trying to do their work. And they could you could hear animals, you could hear brothers and sisters, you could hear parents. It was not conducive at times. Sometimes they would shut off their camera so you couldn't see where they were, and sometimes you couldn't tell if they were really there. It was frustrating. Then when we would do some fun things on Wednesdays to try to get the kids to come and let's let's see your pets and let's we actually did a, what do you call it, like an Instagram thing where we all did, like, a crazy �dance, you know, and everybody did it and then we put it together, and then we did posters and we went to some of the home schools. And I had my husband had to videotape me doing something in front of Saratoga High School. So the kids that went to Saratoga High School would see me, you know? And we did a lot of crazy things. We visited, we did a carpool thing for graduation. We met at the Meyer Center at 7:00 in the morning and got home at 9:00 at night. We drove like over 3 or 400 miles to every kid that graduated from our program and brought them their graduation cap and gown, took pictures and did stuff. And we had a carpool with police, ambulance, you know, fire trucks and police and everything. And we just would pull up to the house and take pictures. It was always so exciting to see the kids and I would warn my husband, I think I'm going to get hugged here. So beware, you know, we were supposed to be in masks, you know, but I'm not going to tell the kid they couldn't hug me. They were so excited. Sometimes they would swear and say, "Holy blank, it's Mrs. C!" you know. And my husband was laughing. The kids were it was it was so hard, but it was so rewarding to actually have that moment with those kids. It really was. It was. Sophia [00:25:12] Yeah. It sounds like your job was getting harder, but at the same time, like, public opinion was kind of getting worse around support for teachers. Sandie [00:25:22] It was. I think the political scene was, you know, they were questioning, you know, we have the tax cap, we have things going on where, you know, money's tight. People don't want to pay taxes. That's how you fund education. It just got ugly at times. And they of course, you know, if you buy a real expensive car, you expect that car to do well. They weren't really paying for the the Cadillac. They were paying for a beat up car, and expecting Cadillac stuff. And, you know, our kids were trying really hard, the ones that could and then our kids, many of our kids really needed the physical support. They needed that person next to them. They were getting very, very sad. Public opinion, you know, test scores weren't going up. There's a lot of time competing for kids attention. That's not schoolwork. A lot of parents think the social aspect of playing soccer and being playing instruments and doing this and being in clubs, but sometimes it's just too much for kids. And the expectation from State Ed at times was kind of high. Some of the expected readings were not age appropriate for kids. Kids don't need to read some stuff about war when they're in fourth grade. I mean, the Civil War, that's one thing that was kind of whitewashed. You didn't really hear about the bloody body parts and stuff, but some of the reading that was expected for fourth graders. And we, we at the union and went to State Ed and complained that it wasn't age appropriate. Our kids couldn't wrap their minds…they weren't emotionally mature enough for some of that reading. And I think that as we grew as a society, we started forgetting what was important in education. They don't do nursery rhymes anymore. Fire alarm [00:27:26] *Fire alarm goes off* Sophia [00:27:27] So building off of your previous work, can you just give us an overview of kind of what you're doing now or if you want to talk about even what you're heading to today? Sandie [00:27:36] So right now, I am retired, after 38 years of being a teaching assistant at the Saratoga-Warren-Washington-Hamilton-Essex BOCES on Henning Road. 38 years of a lot of memories and a lot of battles, union battles, many contracts, many union positions. I'm currently the Labor Ambassador on the Executive Board of my local, which is Saratoga Adirondack BOCES Employees Association. I am also, in that capacity, I attend the Greater Capital Region Teachers Center. I am the only, was the only one ever, that's a �teaching assistant. As a policy board member, they've only ever had teachers. I am on the NYSUT board of directors. I sit on the executive board. We meet monthly with the officers and I have been on the executive board, come this spring, it will be 25 years. So that's unfounded. I mean, it's just not something normal, people, I just been very lucky. I was put on the executive board under several…most of the presidents. The first one I was, I was able to become a board member and the rest of them I've been on the executive board, which is a total honor. And I just recently, in the past couple of years was elected to the presidency of the Saratoga Area Labor Council and second vice president of the NYSUT Retiree Council Ten. So, I have a lot of hats, and I'm a grandmother of five, recently. We started to build a home on the Sacandaga, and my husband just retired. So we're, we're busy all the time. Like I said earlier today, we are, I am heading down to the Labor Temple off of Everett Road and we will be meeting with the governor, with Governor Hochul, uh, lieutenant governor, the attorney general and probably many more dignitaries, to hear her talk about why she should be elected. We…it's a no brainer if you're in education. You know, she's the one governor we have endorsed in probably, it's probably been well over 20 some years. We have not endorsed any other governor because they haven't been good for education. She has put money in education and backed us on many issues for workers in education. Sophia [00:30:32] And just kind of expanding on that, what are you hoping to see from, like, politicians in support of the work you're trying to do? Like what would be ideal for them to give you guys? Sandie [00:30:43] Well, we want to get rid of APPR. And that's you know, it's it's an evaluation tool that's kind of, not fair to teachers. Not really fair to kids either, because kids get tested and really the results don't get given to that teacher for instruction, it goes to the next teacher. And then it's sort of irrelevant at that point, you know, usually, I know when I was in school, we got a spelling test and then if we didn't do well, the teacher knew what we needed to do, to do better, you know, the next week. These tests were punitive. And I don't…I think that it's with the pandemic, kids have lost. The teachers know the kids have lost. Just like, you know, if you play a game and you didn't do 100%, nobody has to tell you you didn't give 100%. We all know kids had a hard time. There's no sense in making them feel worse. Let's, you know, we're hoping to get rid of that. We want to take care of Tier 6 for people that are in Tier 6. Uh, teachers aren't going to, kids are not going to go into education knowing that they're not going to have a decent pension. They're going to basically lose money by the time they get up in the part of the time for their retirement, they've lost money, the way Tier 6 is laid out. So we, we want to do something with Tier 6 and we want to fix, fix it so kids want to become teachers again, to get into education. It's so rewarding. And there, I think the policies now are coming out from the politicians are starting to realize how important it is. Now all of a sudden, “oh, wow, we have a bus driver shortage? Oh, wow. We have, you know, school staff, we can't get teaching assistants, we can't get teachers.” Well, maybe if you paid them and respected them and give them the supports they need, we'll have better results in school. Kids' grades will go up, because the climate, the education, climate, the environment will be better for everybody. Sophia [00:33:01] Can you tell us a little bit, I know since you've had such an extensive experience in it, it'll probably be hard to pick. But like, can you pick out some moments that were really important in your organizing work or where you felt were huge accomplishments for you guys? Sandie [00:33:19] Well, we had some, you know, a lot of fun events that the union helped me to get involved in. Like we did this book challenge. It was a truck full of 42,000 brand �new books, and it's AFT's program, First Books. And because of the position I hold, I kind of talked my president into going to NYSUT and talking to them about maybe getting some books. Well, we took the challenge. We got 20,000 signatures. We did interviews on the radio and TV, all kinds of stuff. And we ended up having Congressman Tonko and a lot of people come to our school to watch this giant truck come with, just, boxes as big as this room full of brand new books. And then what we proceeded to do, they delivered it into a bay in the career and tech end. And then all the children, we had them working, it was hysterical to see kids in hardhats, big, burly guys that normally do the heavy equipment training, were directing some of our students with disabilities, "The princess books go over there. And this is where the Tommy the Truck book goes over here." And they were helping each other. It was a blur of craziness, but it was all orchestrated. Kids were making boxes, kids were doing this, staff was helping. Some of the kids were running, you know, a forklift outside and taking boxes up to the cafeteria where we had all, everything labeled and out. We had retired librarians, we had the police department, we had the servicemen from the Navy. We had all kinds of people in the community come and help sort books. Our culinary department made sandwiches because this took a week to sort all those books. And then when the day came, when they came to come get their books, I had teachers sitting on the floor, not much older than you guys, sitting on the floor in tears, getting new books to take back to their classrooms because there was no books for the kids. I had little kids coming and taking bags of books and, so excited…the books were heavier than they were, but they were taking books home for their sisters and brothers. And I finally went in to watch and I was teary eyed because I was busy doing other things. We had a rocking chair set up for Congressman Tonko to read to some of the kids. And it was an amazing accomplishment. My superintendent, Jim Dexter, at the time, was very supportive. He gave me six days to do this. I got my regular pay. I was the person, the person in charge, the logistics person. Don't ever accept that job. It's brutal. Brutal. And we just…I wore a Wonder Woman cape, and the kids loved it because I met them at the door and they go "Where we flying to!" I said "Down the hall!" And we gave him breakfasts and pizzas and stuff. And it was, it was a highlight. It was amazing to see. We did a lot of organizing for it and it was positive. There was times that we also had to go, you know, walk a picket line. And that's, that's a different kind of feeling. You know, and hopefully, like we just went to Starbucks. My husband and I went down to Starbucks and I wore my union shirt. And on the back it says, vote yes for the union, check yes. And I walked around the Starbucks store quite a bit with the shirt on. And then when I ordered my drink, I said, they said, "Well, who…what name?" And I said, "Say yes to the union, Sandy." So they had to yell it out. And they did. And the kids were excited, the workers. And they did vote yes, they did consolidate. They did, with the union. So, we've had a lot of young people start realizing that what their grandparents had is what they want. They want a pension. We always thought that the younger folks were looking for the big bucks and not thinking about their future later. But in talking to some of the kids from Starbucks who are going on to college and, you know, working there, too, they said, no, we want what you have: a pension. We want to be able to work at a job safely. We want to be able to have rights. And we like our job. We actually love doing what we do, but we don't want to do it unsafe and we want to do, we want to have a pension when we're done. So it's enlightening to me to hear that. And it's heartening. It feels really good to know that the kids are getting it. And I think with our president that we have now, he's a labor guy. You know, he's definitely trying. All we can do is hope that Americans come together and, you know, labor built this country. Let's hope we can keep it going. And I'm always here. Just tell me where. *laughs* �Sophia [00:38:38] Yeah. Wow. Well, what do you think is important going forward then for people, both organizers and kind of the general public, to kind of get things to where we want them to be for your field. Sandie [00:38:53] You have to listen to each other. You really have to listen because, yes, there's people that are pro-choice and, you know, anti this and pro that. We lost a big thing this year. We lost Roe. You know that Roe v. Wade is going to forever make me cry because it that was something that my kids and you kids had and now it's been taken away. My granddaughters won't have that. We have to start finding ways to communicate with those that are totally against something and some people that are totally for and find some kind of middle ground. That's what the union always did. We tried to do a win-win thing. We tried to make it, you know, give a little take a little. But today, it seems like it's all out war against the middle class. And we need to really look at the unions, go back, see what we did, see how we built this country. You know, with the infrastructure, everything we have to start protecting our water, protecting our air, protecting the rights of each individual to their own body. I mean, really think about it. I, I'd love to see what some of these men that are making the rules for women would consider if they were told they had to have something done so they couldn't…stop having babies, or they you know, I mean, they don't even like to have vasectomies. They get all freaked out, think about it. And yet they want us to give birth. What if you really, really don't want to experience that and then you're forced and especially with children. I guess that's huge right now. It's the personal bodily privileges that we, myself, as a woman that is on in age and I have no problem saying I'm 73. I could utilize and have an abortion if I needed it. Maybe it wasn't something I would have done, but I had the right to do it. I don't want less for my children and my grandchildren. And I think that unions have to step up. And we are. We have a Women's Committee at my local and we have a Women's Union Committee at the state level and at the national levels. And we are fighting, fighting hard. And I know there's a lot of men that are behind us and standing beside us. So that and we have to do something to recruit and retain teachers and people to work in education and in hospitals, because hospitals are under attack, too, with this Roe v. Wade. Doctors, nurses. So we have a lot to do, a lot of work. And because I am 73, I'm expecting you guys to step up. So I'll be there beside you. But someone's going to have to carry the flag at some point. So thank you. Sophia [00:41:53] Can you talk a little bit more about I had watched an interview with you where you talked about how working on an LGBT task force had kind of impacted your work as well. And now you're talking about like the intersection of, like, women's rights, too, with labor rights and what you've noticed in your work with those kind of things. Sandie [00:42:13] Okay. So our union, NYSUT, has an LGBTQIA committee, and it consists of teachers and union people in schools, higher ed custodians. There's a swath of everybody. And we come together virtually and in person and we have meetings and we talk about different things that legislation and issues that pertain to same-sex marriages, gender identity, gender identification and expression, gender neutral bathrooms, all kinds of issues that prep and things that everyday human beings, and that's what we are. Doesn't matter whether I identify as a male, female or non-gender. We all have certain rights and should be able to express and feel safe in those environments, whether at school or at a hospital and we're treated correctly. I had a cousin that was gay, and he was horribly treated back in high school. He went on to go out to California in the seventies when that whole thing came about. He developed AIDS later in life and he passed away. So it's my way of helping my cousin that was older than me. You know, I try to step up for him through this committee. We've done a lot of work. We had a book tasting and that was all books around how to talk from a toddler up. You know, like, I'm a yellow crayon and I �want to be a blue crayon. And you know, all these different books; Josie, all these different books that have titles that, you know, "I Have Two Mommies" or "I Have Two Daddies" or 'I Have a Blended Family" books to help kids. And what we did was we had them all around in a room, we had food, and you could go taste the books, look at what they were about. And then we had QR codes next to them with a curriculum attached, so a teacher could take that book and do a lesson around it if they chose to do that. We took some of the books to different events, too. I teach a workshop on LGBTQ, you know, safe schools, and we hand out books there, too, so teachers can take them and help their kids. So, it's just more work that I love. We, I recently went to the Latino... I don't know the title of the place, but it was in Albany and it was a center for all people that needed help. And mostly people that speak different languages come. And we did a culturally responsive food pantry. Our union put it together and we gave out books that were in Spanish. And we did a food pantry where one adult could come through with a cart and pick up food that was something that they would eat. You know, we have a lot of these drive thru food things, lots of them because of the pandemic. We realized that some of the folks that are getting peanut butter and jelly and canned chicken and canned SpaghettiOs, they're from Colombia, they're from South America. They don't know what to do with peanut butter and jelly. They don't know what to do with a canned chicken, or canned ham. It's not something that they worked with. So in this culturally responsive pantry, we had dried beans, we had canned salmon. They like that. And there was a lot of eggs and chicken and food that they could use, fresh vegetables, stuff that they knew and would cook. And it was... It brought a tear to your eye to see these families coming and getting this food and actually being vulnerable, to say, "I need help, I can't feed my family." We…I don't speak Spanish. You folks should learn another language. And I'm sure you are. I, I wasn't good at it, and I just gave it up, but I wish I did. But the language of love and caring came through, and we all could get along. And I understood what they needed, and they knew I wanted to give them what I could. And it was, even my husband was totally blown away with that activity. Our union does a lot. We also had hygiene kits put together: toothbrushes and combs and toothpaste and soap and shampoo and comb in Ziploc bags. And they took them. They needed them. That's an activity you guys could do from school. You could always get a hold of me and you could come and help at that place any time any kids wanted to do some civil and human rights kind of work. You can always reach out to NYSUT. We have higher ed folks there and myself and we do a lot of that. So I love my union because of that. Sophia [00:47:35] Yeah, that's really incredible work that you guys are doing. Sandie [00:47:38] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Sophia [00:47:39] It sounds like so much of what you do is just born out of, like, a genuine love for your community and working with these kids. And that's really important. Sandie [00:47:47] It is. It is. I did not want to leave this earth without having an impact on the greater good, you know? Yeah, I could go out and leave a chunk of money for my grandkids, and I will. But the bottom line is, I want to make it a better place. I don't want to destroy. I try to do everything you're supposed to. I think my kids, they're grown. They know what I do. They were there when I got a legacy award. I've been given awards through the teacher union, NYSUT. I was School-Related Professional of the year. I was given the Albert Shanker Award at the American Federation of Teachers. I was up for the National Education Association's award for the ESP of the year. There's hundreds of people that get put in, but just being nominated for those positions shows that you can, you can impact a lot of people by just doing something from your heart and asking �questions, listening to people. What do they need? The big impact that I heard and I heard a lot was don't presume, you know, what a poor or disadvantaged family needs. You need to ask them. Ask them what their needs are. Pay attention, listen, because maybe it's a coat or maybe you gave them a coat and all they really wanted was a bag of beans and some rice and some money towards heat or help with getting a car so they could go to work. You know, we have to listen to the people in our communities. We can't just judge or go in and think we're going to take over. There's a lot of these associations now, you know, that are being like, I know Albany's got a citizens' group together. They want to be heard. "Don't come in and tell us what our community needs." So as young people, always ask before you presume that someone needs something, you know, ask, "What can we do? What do you need from us?" And listen. And sometimes they're, they could be embarrassed and they might not…so if you listen and let them just talk, they'll tell you a lot. Sophia [00:50:04] So well. It's been amazing to hear about everything you're doing, but before we wrap up with the interview, I just want to ask if there's anything else that we didn't ask that you wanted to add about what you're doing. Sandie [00:50:16] I think that, as I do my daily job as a retiree, every weekend I'm busy. I find things that we need to get done through some of the committees I do. And like tonight, I'm going to go see, you know, the governor. And I'll have a meeting Wednesday night with the labor council and there's phone banking. There's always something to be done to try to make the world a little better place. Find a place that you feel comfortable in helping. Listen to people. Give back where you can. And it comes back, like my husband used to be a little, can I say, cheap or tight? And he'd see me give $10 to something or do something. And I…and then one day, you know, I won something. He goes, "You always win." I say, "But I always give." And then it seems to come back in a different way. Sometimes it's just a big thank you or an award, but it's, it's not something I worked to get. I work because it gives me inner satisfaction. And that's what you need to find. As college kids, you need to find what makes you tick, what you're good at, and I hope it's something to do with labor. I hope it's something to do with the greater community. I have a feeling it will be if you're taking this course. Sophia [00:51:40] I mean, after this interview. Yeah. Sandie [00:51:43] Thanks a lot for having me here. Sophia [00:51:45] Oh, it was amazing. Thank you so much for coming. But I think we're good to... Max [00:51:50] I think so, too. Thank you for your participation. Sandie [00:51:52] Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Max Chelso '24 and Sophie Delohery '25 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandie Carner-Shafran Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 51:56 Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sandie Carner-Shafran Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 2, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource I worked for 38 years for the Saratoga Warren Hamilton Essex Boces as a Teacher Aide and then a Certified Teaching Assistant. I recently retired and currently serve on the Executive Board of my Local union as the Labor Ambassador & Co-Chair of our Saratoga Adirondack Boces Employees Association Women’s Committee, Second VP of the New York State Teachers Union Retiree Council 10, President of the Saratoga Labor Council and The Greater Capital Region Teacher Center Policy BOD member. I continue to be involved serving on various Steering Committees at NYSUT. Union For Life in my motto! Language A language of the resource English (en) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3d315bfa54a05937323786925c442481.jpg e01d0182326b8ab1875f4d1eb8a0dd8c https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/66bb262ad4c1c55176cc4c7c528b7eea.mp3 32a3d81ffd927dfa4e5e03c5643c0ff5 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/48d693eeffba411e5daca4114e9bf83e.pdf d7d8508d019f55133e20a8550d4e427f PDF Text Text Narrator: Sean Collins Interviewers: David Guo ‘25, Chloe Hanrahan ‘24, and Elena Shostak ‘24 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Date of Interview: November 4, 2022 Chloe [00:00:01] Testing. Testing. Sean [00:00:03] Testing, testing. Chloe [00:00:05] Testing, testing. Elena [00:00:07] Oh, yeah, that's better. Chloe [00:00:09] Cool. So. Hi. Sean [00:00:13] Hi. Chloe [00:00:13] Welcome to your interview. Sean [00:00:16] Yes. Chloe [00:00:16] We just wanted to start off by getting to know you if you feel comfortable on more of a personal basis. Sean [00:00:21] Sure. Chloe [00:00:22] So introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about where you grew up and what your community, like, was growing up. Sean [00:00:29] Sure. So my name's Sean Collins. I'm organizer and representative with the Service Employees International Union Local 200 United. I am also the Treasurer for the Troy Area Labor Council, AFL-CIO. About myself, oh, gosh, I've been, I've been with the Local, now as a staff member for, going on ten years in February. How I got to be here, I was telling you before, Elena, right? Sorry. And David? David [00:01:02] Yep. Sean [00:01:02] David. I was telling Elena before outside. I come from a military family. My father was a, was a marine, an enlisted Marine for 23, 24 years. And my mom worked various jobs when I was younger and through my adolescence. She was a flight attendant when she was pregnant with me and into, into, you know, the first year or two of my life and then worked other odds and ends jobs, as you know, due to my, wherever my dad was stationed, you know, wherever we were living at the time. So I was born in Bethesda, Maryland. But I lived in upstate New York—I've lived in upstate New York most of my life. I'm 32. And I would say of that, of those 32 years, about, like, 20, 21 of them have been in upstate New York. I live out in, up in Plattsburgh, out in Oneonta, and lived in the capital district for 14 so years now. I went to Califorina, I went to high school in California and also lived some time in North Carolina, Camp Lejeune in Jacksonville, North Carolina, you know, a couple of times as well. But once I graduated high school, my grandmother, my nana who lives in Binghamton, New York, where my dad is born and raised, she has a New York address, so I used her address as if it was my address to get in-state tuition at SUNY Morrisville. And I think my dad as a marine, he could sort of keep his residency as, �you know, wherever he wanted, even though he was stationed wherever. And so a combination of that I was able to use, and I don't think it's illegal, but it's probably not kosher, if you will. Sean [00:02:39] But I used, I went to SUNY Morrisville for my first year of school studying journalism technology, which was a sort of a new program geared towards, like, you know, at the time it was like 2007, 2008 where they thought, like, blogging was the future was like Ezra Klein and Matt Yglesias and like Andrew Sullivan, you know, all those, like, now they're now I realize, like, really obnoxious bloggers. That was, it was the, it was the thing at the time. And so I was studying that, and then I immediately got, like, bored with it. So, I transferred to UAlbany to study political science and, you know, sort of when I that's how I came to the Capital District. And yeah, I studied political science, political theory at UAlbany until I left UAlbany. I say left; I didn't graduate. I never completed my bachelor's degree. I got a job with Citizen Action of New York, which is a, you know, grassroots, depending on your perspective. But as it says and as it says on the website: it's a grassroots organization, membership organization that works on, like, left, progressive issues. I did communications and, like, PR work for them and then I was kind of more of a desk job and I got tired of talking, you know, on behalf of working people. And I wanted to sort of have them have their own voice. And so from, you know, the opportunity, I'm skipping some stuff, but the opportunity arose for when I was at Citizen Action to start as an organizer with the local, Local 200. And I've been here ever since. Chloe [00:04:19] You touched on that you studied political science, I think. Right? You touched on that. You studied political science. And I think Elena or David, if you want to ask the question that we have in relation to actually your political affiliation, if you're cool with talking about that. Sean [00:04:32] Sure. Elena [00:04:34] So on your KeyWiki it describes you as involved in with the Albany Democratic Socialists of America. And we were wondering if you could describe yourself as a democratic socialist and what that means to you? Sean [00:04:48] Yeah, I would, yeah, I am a member of the DSA, Democratic Socialists of America. I would never, I would never describe myself as a democratic socialist. I think that's just, like, an unnecessary redundancy in terms I would consider myself a socialist. What does that mean, right? As, you know, socialism essentially is is that, you know, workers on the means of production and democratically operate them and determine how they, how they function. Right. And then there's no competitive markets as this is just those markets exist to serve the motive of profit. And so that's, that's what I consider, that's what I consider myself. I think it took me some time to sort of develop that. It definitely started in college doing student organizing and working, you know, through that student organizing, working alongside unionized faculty and unionized graduate instructors, unionized staff on campus, you know, in the most, like, union dense, one of the most union dense parts of the country. It's like, it's like New York City, and then the capital region is, like, up there, in, like, the top five, if not top three. And so it was through that, through those studies, through those interactions with those professors and all those folks that it sort of came to that. And, you know, I joined DSA, you know, like, a lot of folks, you know, in the, in the lead up to the 2016 election and not so much motivated by Bernie, but, like, definitely that in the lead up to when it was increasingly obvious what the outcome was going to be, that Trump was going to win. And it felt like even if I didn't necessarily agree with the DSA, you know, in the totality. It's, you know, a socialist who's not, you know, �who's not a part of an organization. There's, you know, it's they're not, they're not doing, they're not doing socialist organizing and they're not doing socialism because it's right there in the name. It's a social exercise. Chloe [00:06:55] That's awesome. So from what I understand, from what you just said, that kind of like your work with unions, your education, and all of that has kind of played into not just like what you do for a living, but also like your personal beliefs. Would you say that that's accurate? Sean [00:07:09] Yeah. You know, another thing I always, I, so my mom was a flight attendant. She was a unionized flight attendant. And, you know, later on when I say I come from a union family, so I certainly come from a working class family for sure. My dad was an enlisted Marine. You know, my paternal grandmother was, was a union nurse who worked for the state for years, still works for, like, you know, as a substitute nurse, or at least until very recently worked as, like, a substitute nurse for the Binghamton schools. And so, where was I going with this... So, yeah, I definitely, definitely I sort of, as I sort of got started studying these things, I start to pose these, these questions to, you know, to my parents or to my family and stuff like that and start to pull back the, you know, layers of the onion. I was, like, oh, yeah, there's my mom was the flight attendant; my grandmother was, you know, was a nurse; my, my grandmother worked for, you know, as a, you know, civil employee, civil service employee for the State Department and did, like, refugee work for a long time. And then, you know, I had mentioned that my father was a marine and I, setting aside all the issues of American, the American military that we don't need to go into, like, gratuitous detail, you know, on its face there is, there's a, it's a, like, maybe not its face, but, like, there is a noble, you know, notion to that that, you know, here is he is signing up to serve, you know, his country, right? And for me, it's something that I came to glean, like, through high school and into and definitely into college. Is that, like, well, why is that? Why is that particular form of service so, you know, so unique when, you know, I mean, teachers, you know, that the binmen, you know, pick up your trash like all these folks are contributing to their country, to their communities and stuff like that. Sean [00:09:04] And, but that's not, it doesn't, it's not attached with the same sort of value and valor, valor, like, or military service, even, even though, like, especially now, like, I would say, you know, someone who's working in a public school, you know, setting, you know, as a teacher or a teaching assistant or whatever is in an uphill battle one way or the other. And so that sort of, that sort of that, that notion of, like, service on my father's part and also being, you know, subject to the state, you know, it's just, like, I lived where they sent him. I went to school was based on that. I interface with communities based on that, and so I worked and I, you know, when I was a, you know, teenager, I worked on base. I worked at that grocery store. I worked at the exchange like the, like, which is basically I don't know how familiar you are with, like, a military base with the PX is basically like the Macy's on base with like a Rite Aid, you know, it's like but so I, you know, I worked those places and it just sort of that's where I was. And I sort of didn't realize it until much later on, when I was filling out all the paperwork, I was, like, as a federal government employee, I was a member of the AFGE, didn't even realize that that was the thing I had signed up because I was 16 and wasn't thinking about it in those terms. And I come from a sort of somewhat union family, but not like one that was like, you know, it's not like I, my father worked for like GM and his father worked for GM. It's a little bit different. David [00:10:32] Okay, thanks. So,you talked about how you moved from a desk job to essentially organizing, so what was the process like for you in that, like, step up? �Sean [00:10:48] Right. David [00:10:49] Was it, like, difficult? Sean [00:10:50] Well, yeah. So, you know, when I was working at Citizen Action, I was doing, like, other organized, community organizing. And just by nature of, like, these organizations, you always sort of, you know, interfaced with, like the members of the organization or the other coalition partners and their members and their activists and their leaders and stuff like that. And so in that way I was doing, like, organizing, but it was more like, you know, back at the house type of thing, preparing press releases, helping folks draft, like, letters to the editor, you know, updating our website, you know, tracking our press and taking pictures at the rallies. And so I was, I was, you know, I was acting as a—I was organizing. And I was also still involved with, like, the student organization that I was a part of in college, which no longer exists, but, you know, I was, I was still, like, engage with that and, but, you know, I, so it was, it yes, it was a desk job. But I what I mean is, is, like, you know, some of my mentors that I met with there were more, they're doing more of the nuts and bolts organizing of, like, talking to folks, you know, bringing folks into the organization, having those one on ones, really building those relationships. Whereas my role was sort of I say this, you know, thinking back on when I was 21, 22, but I was the sort of topic expert as to, like, how to coach them on how to talk to the press, something that I barely knew how to do, but, like, you know, how to write letters to the editor, you know, these sorts of things. And, and, but I just, you know, I still do a lot of that stuff, but like now I also get to do these, like, one on one conversations with workers and doing, you know, identifying their issues and interest. And, you know, they're, they're in many ways like the essential qualities they have of being a leader or being an activist or being whatever. And they're in their workplace or in their communities. Chloe [00:12:38] Yeah. We were really interested in some of the work that you've done for unionized workers at, like, Capitol Roots. Sean [00:12:45] Oh, yeah. Chloe [00:12:46] And so we were wondering because Capital Roots, from what we understand, is like a nonprofit dedicated to food access and sustainability, but it's fostering a workplace that's not conducive to its employees. It's retaliatory. And we were wondering what it's like to be unionizing or fighting against a system where it's something that the public might view as, like, a good, like, oh, it's a nonprofit, it's helping people, but it's also not helping its workers. So what is that kind of that tension or that struggle or what has that been like? Sean [00:13:24] It's been it's honestly it's been incredibly perplexing. You know, I've you know, again, living having lived in the area for, like, you know, ten, 15 years, you know somewhere in there, now 14 years, I, I've lived, you know, and within, you know, rocks, you know, a stone's throw of, one of their community gardens. And over the years, I had heard stories from past staff about, like, the issues at that, at their workplace, and it was always, like, you know, as an organizer, an union organizer, every, you know, we keep a list of, like, the non-union workplaces that we would like to organize and for various reasons and Capital Roots was there because it does have this and, like, a lot of nonprofits, it does have this, like, sort of stated mission. But I always think, you know, around, like, sustainability and food access and, you know, care for its community. But I always think that the thing is with those things is that, like, you can't really genuinely and authentically perform that service or whatever it is to the community without starting, you �know, without starting at home. Which is not to say that, like, I don't recognize, or the staff don't recognize, the struggles of a nonprofit organization that probably would always want to do more. Any, you know, just taking Capital Roots out of the equation, any nonprofit would probably like to do more for its employers because it doesn't have that, like, profit motive. But, it, it doesn't. You know, I think it's, there are, it becomes, then, a sort of an internal question of, like, what's, you know, what's more important on balance, you know, for the management and its donors or its board, I should say, is, you know, doing this work internally or projecting that we're doing it internally and also, you know, doing an externally, that is a really sloppy way of putting it. But, yeah, it's been, I think, you know, and I think I actually said this in, like, one of the, one of the, to one of the reporters who came to our rally at the beginning of July is just that, like, we understand, these folks aren't working for this organization do not expect to make you know, you know, you know, six figure salaries or anything like that. There's, you know, there's a recognition that, like, nonprofits, you know, do have that, they do rely on grants and funders and foundations and donors and volunteers. Sean [00:15:37] And there's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, set aside the financial stuff, there's other things that the employer can do that, you know, can confer respect and dignity in other ways in terms of how managers and directors talk to their staff and deal with their staff and interact with their staff that they don't do. And that doesn't cost anything to sort of be nice and respectful. And the last thing I would say, too, you know, as a, as a, you know, as a union, our local 200 United, virtually all of our employers are nonprofit employers, colleges and universities, which we have about six, seven thousand members in that division of our union. They're all nonprofit employers, different kind of nonprofit, but they are still nonprofit. A lot of the human service agencies, you know, that provide care and services to, and, you know, day habilitation programs and these sorts of things to the developmentally disabled and in different parts of the state. You know, they're nonprofit employers that we have a lot of public sector workers in school districts, towns and villages. I, you know, in upstate New York, they're, they're nonprofit workers. So it's, it's, you know, they're different, but we, you know, one of the things that we've had to actually convey at Capitol Roots at the bargaining table is that, like, we don't need you to lecture us on nonprofit. We get nonprofit, but it's just that, you know, it's that other stuff that we were, I was talking about before that is, is missing there. Elena [00:17:09] So when a workplace like Capital Roots puts out a statement with buzzwords like valued staff, how does that impact the workers and the union workers fighting for their valued staff? Sean [00:17:21] I'm sorry, say that again. Elena [00:17:22] Oh. So how do these buzz words like valued staff impact workers and union workers fighting for a truly valued staff? Sean [00:17:30] Yeah, I mean, they see stuff like that. I see stuff like that. And knowing everything that's happened and they're all you know, they've all, I mean, the thing about a union, right, is that it, it's the workers coming together to, you know, obviously need to, to bargain and negotiate their terms and conditions of employment. That's what happens. That's the contract. That means the end result, hopefully. Right. But in that, in those interim stages, what happens is, is they're talking to one another, they're communicating, they're creating. I always, you know, just explain it to workers. Is that, like, management, any manager, you know, administration, whatever, they have a system of being able to communicate information and get information back from, you know, and they control it. �That's the beautiful thing about being, you know, the management administration. And so when we're forming a union, we're doing the same thing and we're sharing information across, you know, departments or across, like, job titles and, you know, different, like, programs in the case of Capital Roots. And then, you know, that filters back out to, like, the union leaders and the folks in the negotiating committee. And then we exchange that obviously with the, you know, with the employer, you know, like at Capital Roots. And so what is it? What does it mean when they see stuff? Is that like what I think the managers, you know, at Capital Roots and other places fail to realize is that, like, it drives them crazy because it's just, like, that's not true. Like, it's not, that's demonstrably not true. Just as like a, like a case point with like Capital Roots when we first started organizing there back in, like, May, late May, early June, there's 29. Yeah, 29 directors and staff as of today. As of, what time is it? It's 3:58. So Melissa's last day ends in an hour and one minute. And so with her departure, they're down to 12 staff and 12, you know, 12 staff and directors. So a 50%, like, loss. And it's, and they don't value they don't. She had an exit interview. It was, as she described, it was a very cold experience with her, the HR manager as just, like, barely acknowledged, like, thank you for your three... no, there's no thank you for your three years of service. Not in a genuine sense. And, and that's it. Sean [00:19:38] But what's happening and the reason why I have a hard stop here at 4:30 is, is that they're meeting up at Rare Form Brewing. All the current remaining staff and the former staff are going to get together to have a drink and send, you know, Melissa off. That's where, that's, that's an actual demonstration of value. But what's happened as staff have left, you know, there, in respect to, but what's happened as those folks have left is that, like, if you were liked if you were, to be candid, if you were one of the kiss asses, you got, you got the doughnuts in the morning and the "goodbye"s "was really nice knowing you". And then Melissa, who's been there for three years in their Gardens program, you know, has a cold, you know, exit interview. And it is otherwise just like it's not acknowledged at all. And I went out, you know, I'm just reading between the lines and all that. I imagine there's relief that she's gone. There's another one down, which, you know, I think, again, is just like if you valued her, especially someone like, her, who's been there for three years, I mean, you not only value her, the relationship, the personal relationship, the professional relationship you have, but particularly her as professional three years of experience working for this organization, which is a long time in Capital Roots terms, three years of, you know, knowledge and institutional memory of about how the organization works. All the relationships she has with the gardeners and the volunteers that she works with across their 50 some odd 55 gardens across like Saratoga Counties, Albany, Rensselaer, Schenectady County. Those are all relationships that she's built, not singlehandedly, but she's been a part of building over, over three years. And it's just, like, well, good riddance, because you and this one regard, you went too far. David [00:21:16] It's a bit of a topic switch, but could you elaborate a little bit more about your work with the non tenure track professors at Skidmore and what specifically is your role in that fight? Sean [00:21:27] Yeah, yeah. So I, SEIU 200 United and SEIU, the, you know, our international union which has locals across the country and members 2.1, 2.3 million members in the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. That's what makes us an international those, those two. Back in like 2012, 2013, they launched what was at the time called, like, adjunct action and then became, like, faculty forward this, this nationwide organizing project to organize first adjunct faculty and then all faculty off the tenure track primarily, but where possible, all faculty. So what makes Skidmore different from, like, other like public schools, like the SUNYs or your CUNYs in a place like New York is that �public sector, you know, employees are governed by state law. And so there they can, faculty that have access or have tenure are eligible to organize, whereas non tenure track faculty at private colleges and universities, the faculty that are on the tenure stream that are in the tenure streams, rather, they are...there's a 1979 Yeshiva ruling, Yeshiva University of New York City that says that because they have access to tenure, they are, they have their they have a managerial role in their colleges and universities in terms of the budget and the finances, in terms of curricular design, in terms of personnel in hiring and hiring faculty hiring adjuncts or non tenure track faculty or filling tenure vacancies and then tenure in promotion itself. So setting aside that, like, the Yeshiva ruling is, you know, you know, as it's applied today doesn't really, it doesn't make sense in the contemporary college or university that we started organizing SCIC or SEIU the royal way, if you will, started organizing faculty across the country, particularly non tenure track faculty. Sean [00:23:35] And so our local, we started, we launched our campaign at Marist College because like I said before, we have we already had about, like, four or five thousand members in higher education. And if you throw a dart at a college or university along, like, the New York State Thruway corridor, we have members on that campus. So, like, I represent members at, like, Vassar College and Bard College in the Hudson Valley. We have members at Marist as well, and then other colleges across the state, too. So we started at Marist because there was, like, at the time I think it was like five hundred or six hundred adjunct faculty and we were, like, well, we already have these, like, two hundred plus, like, janitors and building and grounds workers who maintain the campus and we have, like, it's it's a, it's an incredible contract that those workers have. I mean, they're making you know, it it's just like I think starting rate for, like, a janitor is like $22 an hour, like premier, like health insurance benefits, a pension. It's a good, like, union job. And you can say and then those folks, you know, a lot of our members who, you know, are working as a janitor, they don't themselves have, you know, college education, but they can send their kid to school at a place like Marist or in a place like Vassar for free. And so it's, you know, it provides, you know, that sort of social mobility for their, for their children. Sean [00:25:22] So we started we were, like, this is a great contract, you know? And, you know, of course, of course that will win this campaign at Marist. We did not. It was it was it was. Marist is a very interesting college. I, what's his name? Bill O'Reilly is an alumni from there. So, it sort of gives you a little bit of a taste of what the student body is like. And we, we, we, we lost that election. But as part of, like, a lot of the press and sort of attention that the campaign got, not necessarily lost, but the campaign got a friend of mine, our acquaintance who became a friend through organizing here in the Capital District. He's like, "I am an anthropology professor at Saint Rose, and they just canceled one of my courses and I'm pissed about it and I want to organize my workplace". And he just fired off an email over like the college Listserv and, and then got a bunch of responses and started meeting up with them for drinks and so on and so forth. And then they won their union like 3 to 1. Then we organized SUNY Schenectady Community College. We organized Siena. There's a bunch of other organizing victories across the state from there. Fordham University. Ithaca College, Wells College out in the Finger Lakes. So we, you know, we won a lot of, you know, victories across the state at about in 20. I forget the actual timeline. Now it's some say 2018, some say 2019. I'll just agree with the folks who said 2018 because they've been right about most everything else. We start, we had a conversation at that cafe over in the, that Fresh Market Plaza. You know, over here I met with Pete Murray, who's a philosophy professor here at Skidmore, and Kate Paarlberg, who at the time was a history professor in International Affairs and History. I think her background is, like, in Latin American and Caribbean studies. And I met with them and that, you know, they were like, this is, these are, these are various, you know, issues and concerns. One �of the ones that they talked about was the pay disparity at the time, I think it's been chipped away a little bit. But the pay disparity between men and women, you know, faculty where so again, philosophy Pete Murray and then Kate, history. So, you know, the liberal arts, you know, the humanities, sort of generally equally valued or undervalued by college administrations. Sean [00:27:09] He made $10,000 more than her, something like that, again, it was 2018, so I might be inflating that a little bit, but there was a pay discrepancy, nonetheless. And then looking into data that the administration has done, that the faculty have sort of dug up themselves through surveys and talking among their colleagues and identified it, too. So, like, whether it's 10,000 or not, the point is it's demonstrable and it's across the, you know, across the college. And so we started having conversations and it was very slow going at first. And, you know, but you know, it, we sort of got, got some heads, you know, some steam into 2019 and then, then the pandemic interrupted everything. And then last semester, well, not last semester, the fall of 2021 semester, we sort of had a conversation at the beginning and it was like, you know, things were starting to open back up. All the frustrations that we've seen across the, you know, economy in across the workforce, you know, sort of they played out here, too, in their own sort of specific way to faculty. Sean [00:28:09] And, you know, my role, to answer your question right, is as the organizer, is to sort of push them to talk to their colleagues and to build support for the unions to, you know, sort of execute, you know, a plan to win that we sort of developed together. But that is informed by, you know, my experience at other places and, you know, what I've seen at other colleges and universities across the country. And so we had a conversation that beginning of fall 2021, which is that, like, if this is going to happen, if we're not going to continue to burn ourselves out, you know, reaching a certain threshold and then, you know, new faculty come and go and we are back to square one in many ways, and we really need to just put our shoulder into it. And that means like having, you know, conversations with as many faculty, if not all of the, at the time we thought it was about 180 non tenure track faculty. You need to go out and have like if you think about it, there is like ten folks in the cause. Like if you each have two conversations and identify two supporters a week, you know, two times ten times, you know, sixteen weeks in the semester, you know, you go from there. And so that's, that's where, you know, we did that through the fall into the spring. And then in May, we reached the threshold that we set of 60% support across the college. And that's when we went public. Sean [00:29:28] And then there was the election. Well, initially, the college was sort of reticent. They were, you know, allowing the election to go forward. We were able to reach an agreement. I'm sure you might have a question about that. We were able to reach an agreement. They had an election in September, and then they won their election, you know, 2 to 1, at least in both the full time and the part time unit. And so now, you know, my role transitions from organizer, solely organizer not that I'm not still an organizer, but, like, now I'm, like, transitioning to, like, being the representative. So helping them set up, you know, a negotiating committee, identifying who wants to serve in that negotiating committee, identifying what the bargaining priorities are through surveys, and then preparing those as with, with the response to those surveys, which is, like, all right, well, now we know what folks are looking for. Now I help them memorialize this into, like, an actual, like, contract proposal. And then we go to the table with that committee that they elect from among their peers. And I serve as the chief spokesperson for the committee. But, like, they develop the proposals and help develop our counterproposals and counterproposals to counterproposals. And again, I think it's, you know, it's in many ways, it is like the organizing drive, too, though, is that, like, I, you know, I always describe my �role as is that, like, I'm a mouthpiece, but a mouthpiece is nothing without the person who is the voice. And that's you all. It's the workers themselves. And so I can help sort of translate it because, you know, Skidmore can afford a, you know, a pricey attorney. So I could sort of translate it into their language. But I don't, what I can't do is I can't, like, provide the narratives of the day-to-day experience of the faculty or any worker. And so that's where they come in. So I'm the chief spokesperson, but that's really inflating the role. It really, I would really be nothing without, like, I would, I can't accomplish anything on my own because I don't work here. They do. And they have to be able to talk about their experiences and what changes and solutions they think need to be in place. Chloe [00:31:20] Yeah, I am. I am. I know of one adjunct professor. She used to come to the German club that I'm a part of. Ruth McAdams. Oh, yeah. And she's. She's wonderful, very kind, warm. And I know that she had a hand in. Sean [00:31:34] Oh, yeah. Chloe [00:31:34] A big hand in this. Sean [00:31:35] Oh, yeah. Chloe [00:31:36] And I was just wondering a little bit about, like, the, the power dynamic between a non tenured track professor speaking out and, and advocating for herself, theirselves, themselves, himself and, and also what you think of the overall shift in academia to adjunct professors. Like, there's this big wave of it's becoming solely adjunct and lecturers. These tenure track positions are fading away. So those two questions and then if you see this, this shift in any other fields to more, like, add on people than actual salaried guaranteed health benefits, all those kinds of things. Sean [00:32:19] I first, I should say, like, Ruth McAdams is, is an incredible organizer and as near as I could tell, also an incredible professor and instructor. And I actually, I didn't even realize until, like, I think it was about, like, two or three months ago that she also speaks German. I was, like, “Oh, this is crazy.” And she's an English professor too, I think that's wild. So, she's great. And the rest of the committee and there's so many folks on it. Diana Barnes, Pete Murray I mentioned before, Mike Paulmeno here in the library a lot of, you know, I just and I'm, Eileen Sperry in the English Department and I should stop because I’m going to forget somebody, but they're all incredible. The question of, like, the role or about, like, the risks that they take as non tenure track faculty in organizing. You know, I think it's it's, it's, it's, it's, a little, it's, it's interesting because, like, I think in many ways, like academia is no different than the rest of the workplace. Right. They, they a boss is a boss is a boss. I tell workers this all the time. However, there is the, the thing that is unique to a Skidmore college compared to like Walmart or Starbucks is that this sort of, the, the culture of academic freedom in the university or the academy as a, as a place of the free exchange of ideas. Sean [00:33:40] And to be able to arguably say, and this is changing obviously a lot, but like the, to say the controversial thing or the, the, the, or maybe the unpopular thing or in the case of organizing, I think the undesirable thing, at least in the eyes of the administration, they would prefer, like any other boss, they would prefer to have unilateral discretion to set the terms of conditions of employment. Right. And so I think so that's the sorta, like. So I think in the case of is, is Ruth taking a risk or any of those committee members taking a risk? Of course, absolutely. Any worker who organizes their workplaces but is engaging in, what I believe it to be, like, the most courageous thing that anyone �could do is to basically risk the thing that pays their bills by trying to organize it. But it's, it's a I always say it's a, it's the best gamble you can make because if you do it, I mean, the sky's the limit from there. And so, however, like, I do think that there are, there's sort of the culture of academia make it a little bit, a little bit not safer, but like, you know, it's, it's, it's there's, it dulls the edge to that risk. A little bit, just a little bit. And I think, you know, you could see similar trends of that in, like, other organizing that we're seeing. So we've seen a lot of organizing happen in, like, the not for profit space, like a lot of, like the Guttmacher Institute as, like, a, like, a pro-choice, pro-choice or pro-abortion, like, you know, advocacy and research organization, where the workers organize. Now, the boss, like, was, they were, came out really strongly against it, very harshly against it. And there was retaliation there as a part of that organizing drive. Sean [00:35:17] But, I think that nonprofit space is, you know, is a place where that is, that, that instances like I don't want to say rare, but it's like a little bit it's not as, not as likely as, like, what you would see at Starbucks, right. Or Amazon or what have you. I mean, so there's nonprofit organizing, a lot of, been a lot of newsroom organizing, which is interesting. So, like, the Los Angeles Times, a few years ago, they organized and it had been for the number was, like, a hundred and forty seven years there had been, had been a non union newspaper. Compared to, you know, other side of that on the right coast, on the cool coast, the east coast that the New York Times one of the, like, the longest, you know, running union newspapers in the country. So, you know, I think these, these workplaces where they're more, like, liberally minded or, you know, and, you know, or, you know, progressive oriented. There's, there's been I think we were seeing just there's been more propensity of them to organize. But, you know, there's still risks at any of these places. What was the other part of your question was like what makes colleges and universities like sort of different, right? Chloe [00:36:29] Yeah, like if you, if you, what you, sorry. If you see, what do you think of the field of academia moving towards this? And then if you see the trend, oh you just answered the question, you see it in other places. Sean [00:36:43] Yeah you do see it I think in terms of, like, I think what's happening in academia is like they've been toying with this, experimenting with this for the better part of, like, let's say forty, fifty years. So, you know, Sodexo is on campus, right? Even though the workers here are direct employees of the college, Sodexo is a subcontractor. You know, so it's, it's, you know, the college is nonprofit, but it's brought in this profit, you know, oriented for profit corporations around it's dining halls. That's pretty common on college campuses. You have a lot of subcontracted employees in not here, but in other places like janitorial building and grounds, the facilities maintenance of a college, the dining halls. So there's, there's that I think that, that is. But with adjuncts I think it's, I mean, I just think that is just like corporate logic, you know, in academia and, and it's not, it's not in any way dissimilar. Not really. In the end of the day, in terms of the result, in terms of like what we're seeing in charter schools and, and the charter school movement, it's just like, you know, like what happened in New Orleans, you know, it's just, like, oh, you know, there was a historic hurricane that, like, flooded the city, you know, basically they shed, like, what, like, half their population over the course of a year from everybody, you know, that was affected by that moved to Houston and they never came back. And they're like, we'll get to the levees. But first, we're going to completely charterize our public schools. Sean [00:38:07] And, and that is just to get out from underneath union contracts and to bust unions and to, you know, to cut pay, cut benefits the whole year. And I think the same, like, the same thing is happening with adjuncts. It's just that, like, you know, even, �even within our union, right? With that recently formed union there's Ruth who is a full professor, not a full professor, but as a full time professor, you know, teaching a full course load, making, you know, north of sixty thousand dollars something like that, whatever her salary is, like, I don't recall offhand. And then, you know, there's an English adjunct who is teaching maybe two courses this semester who is making forty-five hundred dollars a course. So if she if, if she's teaching a full load or full and also doesn't have any service obligations like Ruth, even though Ruth and others engage in service, they don't have any service obligation. So if you do the math there, I mean it just like as a I mean, it's a that's, that is not even, you know, a fraction of what Ruth makes for teaching that exact same course. And Skidmore said, maybe setting aside Skidmore for a second and thinking about a place like actually, like, Marist, where there is, you know, it's, there's, it's a little bit more they have a, like the full-time professors have, like, you know, they have a heavier course load than the faculty here do. And, then the, the faculty here do, I mean, I mean, you're talking about like a six thousand dollar, sometimes, thousand dollar difference between in terms of the pay parity or lack of pay parity between a part timer and a full timer. And that's, that's just it's not profit extraction necessarily, but it is like inherently exploitative. Elena [00:39:50] So you're sitting here with three future members of the workforce? Sean [00:39:54] Oh, yeah. Elena [00:39:55] How do you think we as our generation can fight against our labor being co-opted? Sean [00:40:00] Oh, I love this question. I always, I always listen to this whenever I talk to students. Unless you're like a Vanderbilt like or something like that, like, unless you're like, you know, like Anderson Cooper and you have a you know, you're going to have a boss when you graduate college. You have a boss now in college. I mean, I don't know if you any of you do like work study or anything like that. So you're already engaging in, you know, work, I mean, and, and are already experiencing it even if you don't have a work study, you know, obligations. But if you're, you're already being taxed essentially to get an education that they tell you is essential by having to take out student loan debt, that you will probably, you know, once you enter the workforce, will struggle initially and maybe over the long term, too. I mean, I went down to Albany and I, you know, as we said before, I sort of cheated my way into in, in school to in state tuition and then left. And I have twenty-eight thousand dollars in student loan debt for, you know, a piece of paper that I decided not to get, but like ostensibly, you know, whatever. But so, like, you're already, you're already being taxed to sort of enter the workforce because they tell you that this degree is essential and then you're going to get into the workforce. And it's definitely not going to be, you know, at worst, it's not going to be, you know, consistent with the cost of living in the area. Most likely you're not going to be in it, most likely because it's the United States and you're not going to be in a democratized, you know, workplace where you have a right to representation, where you have just, you don't have just cause, you don't have just cause protections. You, you don't you can be terminated at any time. You're an at will employee. And, and so I think, I think the, the thing I always tell students is that your, if you're not currently a worker now, you're going to be a worker, you're going to have a boss, and that person is going to have, you know, and it's, it's, it's an unbalanced relationship. They, it's asymmetrical. They have all the power, all unilateral discretion, all arbitrary authority. And you ask “how high?” That's your, that's your role. Unless, of course, and that's why it's important to organize a union so that you, let's say when they say “jump” well let's talk about how the hell we are going to jump first and why are we jumping? You know, that's, that's the, that's the, that's the point of a union. �David [00:42:14] So last question. Do you have anything else you'd like to share about yourself or your work? This archive? Sean [00:42:21] Sure. Anything else that I think, so as a, as a, you know, as a union organizer and then as we talked about initially, as a, as someone who identifies as socialist, I find it, you know, it's as it is right now. The two things are sort of, you know, or they're sort of at odds with each other. Not at odds with each other, they struggle with, there's a tension between them. Whereas as a socialist, I believe that, like, you know, management as a whole is in the way of workers being able to, I think, truly and efficiently, like, you know, perform their, their jobs in the service they provide to the community, whether it be educating, you know, future workers, or, you know, you know, providing fresh, you know, sustainable food to, to folks, whatever the case may be that management is in the way. But yet my job inherently requires me to interface with management and, you know, sort of bite my tongue and say, like, “you're kind of worthless.” I can't say that to them. That just wouldn't go over well. Not worthless, but, like, you are, you, you're kind of the bigger waste here than the workers are. You might think our demands are excessive or whatever the case may be, but you especially, you know, at a college, you know, you make two hundred thousand dollars and you have, you know, you can, you look at us and you talk about, like, our demands around like staffing. So I also represent a lot of building maintenance workers, like I was saying before. And so they look at our demands around, like, we need more janitors. How can you have a thousand acre plus campus that has so many millions of square footage to, to clean so many bathrooms, so many stairwells, so many, you know, trash cans to empty, all these different things. Sean [00:44:00] And we're talking about staffing and you're saying, “oh, it's a, is it, that's, we can't afford that.” It's, like, well, you have, you know, this human resources office has, like, six people to basically one of them set your schedule, likem, you're not working efficiently, efficiently by that, by your own logic, you know, compared to us. And so that wouldn't go over well, that would not, that would, that would be received poorly. And sometimes you do get an opportunity to say that. But sometimes you just have to bite your tongue or at least rather than, like, I had to bite my tongue and just like, yes, you're a socialist, but your job is also to, to, to try to do the most for, for your, for our members. Right. And so I have to ,I have to be at it. It's an interesting tension to, to tell, so that that's one thing. And then I just about myself and I think this is, it applies to anything, any job you're going to do, whether it be working in the labor movement or, you know, you're saying physical therapy, right? You know, so care work. Right? History is, is imbued in everything that we do. It informs everything that we do. And the more you know about whatever the thing you're doing. So I read a lot of labor history just as, you know, as interest, but I also just read, like I have a thing with monarchs. I just read about, like, I just finished a book about King George III. And I, you know, I'll just, I'll just dart around. My, my wife got me, like, a book on, like, Sultan Mehmed, that was, like, incredible. And so just like, it's not relevant to labor history, but history itself imbues, it informs, it blazed the trail that’s behind us. And there are lessons from it to apply to what's what we're going to try to do ahead. And that applies to the labor movement, that applies to care work. There are lessons from those historians from, you know, folks doing stuff like yourself and documenting these narratives. It's all, it's all really important. And so everyone should and I know you were saying this before you. It was this class got you interested in history because history is fucking cool and you just got to find the right stuff that, you know, speaks to your interest. And that's something, you know, I just think is always important to think about. So. Yeah. �Chloe [00:46:14] Thank you so much Sean. Sean [00:46:16] Thank you. This is awesome. Chloe [00:46:18] Four Minutes early. Elena [00:46:19] Yeah. So thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview David Guo '25, Chloe Hanrahan '24, and Elena Shostak '24 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sean Collins Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Contributor Individual who prepared the item and/or edited it. Eric Morser Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sean Collins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 4, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Sean Collins is a union representative and organizer with Service Employees International Union (SEIU), Local 200United. He also serves as a delegate and President of the Troy Area Labor Council, AFL-CIO. He lives in Troy, NY, with his wife, Ashley, and their son, Benjamin. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/9fff4bdecbcbbf9bd15c991bd6d584e6.JPG 2b8bbd76dcf5faf5a23091f07e8bb551 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/d162a3421d690ba86c2b9fff1c2dab94.mp3 cd8df9e3e3be98d0c86bd793a82f4bcc https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/acc99933d9f23e7cc21f902862d306ff.pdf 78cb3fc1619cd5371c16e0d6651369e0 PDF Text Text Narrator: Seth Cohen Interviewers: Corbey Ellison ’24 and Christian Giresi ‘24 Location of Interview: Saratoga Springs, NY Dates of Interview: November 17, 2022 Corbey [00:00:00] Mostly over that. All right. So, it is November 17th, and we are sitting down with Seth Cohen of the Capital District Area Labor Federation. You want to go ahead and introduce yourself? Seth [00:00:14] Yes. Hi. So I am Seth Cohen, retired teacher from the Troy City Schools and currently the president of the Capital District Area Labor Federation. Corbey [00:00:26] So, I guess, you know, just getting started, getting to know you a bit more. First off, like where did you grow up and what was your childhood like? Seth [00:00:35] Sure. Yeah, I, I grew up just outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, about ten miles outside the city. I have five brothers and sisters. So big family. Did a lot of different kinds of things, you know, played sports. But were also into being near Philadelphia. A lot of history. I graduated from high school in 1976, so we were always considered the bicentennial class. And then my parents had grown up in the Boston area, so a lot of American Revolution, you know, that type of history because it was in and around where we grew up. So we were always very interested in that. Went away to college, to Northeastern University. Studied sciences in Boston, then left there, didn't finish there, transferred out to Geneseo State College in New York. And so I have a bachelor's in geology and so I was interested in geology, environmental sciences. Kind of a roundabout way, I did some work in the environmental field on Cape Cod and New England area and then eventually made my way back to this area. Christian [00:01:46] Excellent. So you said your early careers involved teaching. So was that one of your first jobs that you had? Seth [00:01:52] Yeah, I was kind of teaching and counseling in the environmental field, and so I spent a number of years running an environmental ed center on Cape Cod. We would have kids from the Boston area, Providence, Rhode Island, area. They'd come down and spend a week, and so we, we did a lot of things, usually middle school kids, environmental sciences. And when I got to the, came back to the Albany area, I was doing that as well as doing some counseling and was doing working with students, sort of underprivileged students and realized that I liked teaching and thought, okay, if I'm going to stay in teaching, I should get into the public schools. So I went and got my master's degree at SUNY Albany, master's in science teaching, and then did you know, did a variety of kinds of things and then ended up at in the Troy city schools and spent thirtythree years at the Troy city schools teaching science. Corbey [00:02:51] And did, you know, did your work as a teacher kind of inform your current, like, involvement and interest and views on labor issues? Like were you involved in teachers unions, stuff like that? Seth [00:03:03] Yeah, definitely. So I had in my family, a family history of people being involved with unions. Growing up, my mom was a teacher and she was a little bit involved with her union. But more importantly, my grandparents, my grandparents were from the Boston area, had emigrated to this country at the turn of the century and they were very much involved with unions. So kind of being in unions, my grandparents, my uncles, it was �all kind of always a conversation. And then when, yeah, when I got into the public schools a couple of years in our union was going through contract negotiations and so it got involved in that way, just kind of learning a little bit more about it, hearing about what was going on and very kind of early on, probably three or four years into my career, started getting more involved with the union kind of in our building. And then over the progression of a number of years, probably held almost every position in our union as I worked my way up through. Corbey [00:04:08] What made you first want to get involved in, like, union leadership? Seth [00:04:13] I think one of the things as far as, like, kind of going back to the unions, I always thought that people should have a voice as to where they work to be able to say, you know, this is working for me and not working for me. And really, more importantly, let's say in a teacher union, you know what's working for the school. You know, we want to make sure that things are going well for the teachers, but it also helps with the students. And then I think part of it, as far as the question about union leadership, sort of, I think sometimes is just my natural personality of, of wanting to kind of I see things and it's like, well, you know, I think that could be done a little bit differently. I was really never afraid to put my voice out there and say, “Hey, I think we should try this.” And then a lot of times people would say, “All right, well, if you think. That should work. You take it on,” you know. And so you start with some small job. I did, you know, in the unions in in our district, we had eight different buildings and every building had a couple of building reps. And so, you know, the building rep would do some different things and then you'd get on another committee and so on so often. And then, like I said, I spent a couple of years as a vice president under a couple of different presidents, two women that really did well and kind of taught me a variety of things. And then in early 2000, 2001, I guess, I was elected president of our union. Um, so that was, that was really good. It taught me a lot of things. Christian [00:05:41] Oh, were there any, like, really influential, like, events or sequence of things that happened that made you feel more passionate about labor organizing than teaching per se? Or did you just somehow develop into that path? Seth [00:05:56] Um, I think I would say one of the things was the idea of giving teachers a voice in what they taught in their classrooms. So early on, it was often about, you know, do we have a good contract, you know, the benefits, you know, sort of the bread and butter issues that that all employees and all unions look to. But very early on, as a, as a early and a new president, the New York State United Teachers has a really good program for taking local presidents and giving them some training. And so I know I think maybe I was in local president for a year or so. This is probably twenty years ago. And I went to a training facility and there were talks, conversations about the Regents Exams, and there were conversations about the Regents Exams. And then in the course of that, I really got to understand that the teachers union could make some impacts in how the Regents Exams were written that would benefit students and benefit the teachers. And, and that was sort of new to me. And that idea that a labor union, instead of just working for the teachers and their benefits, could actually impact the students and the educational outcome. And so from then on, I really started to spend more time not, not excluding my teaching, but more time developing my union skills and then doing a lot more things with the statewide teacher's union, which then led me to, I started doing some work with the American Federation of Teachers, you know, on the national level. So I think that idea of empowerment for a teacher leader, not just for the contract, you know, sort of what people normally think of, you know, union benefits, health care and that kind of stuff, but how it can actually help students in the school district. �Corbey [00:07:54] During your time in the union did you have any, like, you know, large, large gains, large acomplishments that, you know, you're particularly proud of that you want to talk about? Seth [00:08:02] Yeah, I want to say one of the things, one of the aspects I always tried to push with in my union and in talking to the people under me was to think about our union, especially in a public school, the idea of bringing community in. And so probably I think we had, I think was around 2008 and we were going back to that idea. We had contract negotiations. But one of the aspects that we really pushed to try to get at settled was to bring the community in. And so we reached out to the other public sector unions, you know, people working in the city. But then we also reached out to the other labor organizations, you know, the building trades people like the Teamsters, CWA, you know, painters union and things like that. And because we were, we were having issues 2008 was, the economy was not that great. And so we were trying to push, but we were trying to make it the idea that it wasn't just teachers, it was, again, going back to that all encompassing kind of thing, so we were trying to get the community behind us. And so we actually, I was, you know, instrumental in putting together a couple of different rallies. And we ended up at our school. We had around somewhere between two hundred fifty and three hundred people from, I think, I don't remember exactly, but about fifteen different unions, not just teacher unions, spend time at our district right before board meetings and then we'd go in and talk to the board and we'd say, look, we're not just talking about the teachers, we're talking about the community, because the students that we teach, their parents, you know, work in these other areas and they understand what a good community would be like and you need a good school for that. So yeah, that was an idea and I've really tried to push that ever since, that whole idea of community building when you're working on unions. Corbey [00:10:06] Now, when you started to get involved in the more, like, national unions, how did that work and that involvement compare to, like, your more local district teacher union? Seth [00:10:18] It was very interesting because, so that that came about by working with the statewide teachers union, being on some committees with them and then being asked from the statewide teachers folks to say, “Would you like to represent New York at the American Federation of Teachers on the national level?: There's a, they have a committee it's called the Program and Policy Council, K to 12, kindergarten through 12th grade. And there are about about 60 people on it from all across the country. And there is usually somewhere between five and seven from New York State. And so where I worked in, in Troy, small city school, about five thousand students, not completely urban, you know, not like a Big Albany or a Buffalo or Syracuse, but certainly not a suburban, was kind of a mixture. So I think I had a unique role in that idea of, of kind of bridge the gap between urban and suburban area. But the thing that I was very interesting in when I went to a couple of the first meetings, really getting to know people from other parts of the country who were in unions, but their statewide unions were not nearly as strong as what's in New York State. And so, you know, here in New York State, it's the most dense union state in the country, something, I don't know the exact number, it's like 25, 30% of people are in a union. I think in the public sector, maybe private sector, it's less of that like 15 or so. Whereas across the country it's less than 10%. And so when you, when I go to those meetings, it was very interesting to hear people talking about that sort of the, the fights or the battles that they would have. And, you know, let's say the people in Philadelphia or the people in Orlando, you know, Orlando, Florida, they would talk about what's going on in �their city. Whereas here in New York, we talk about what's going on in the entire state. So it was much more that, you know, I used to talk to them and they were like, well, you know, we're only doing things here in Orlando or maybe in Tampa, but the rest of Florida is is not even on board with them in some places, the other parts of the state aren't even unionized. So it was very interesting to kind of, you almost get in a little bubble thinking, oh, this is the way it should be. And then you go to these other places, you find out, wow, it's, it's really not like that at all. Christian [00:12:41] So following that, you felt like New York had a much more structured and, like, more complete powerful union organization all together... Seth [00:12:51] Very much so. Christian [00:12:52] Than compared to most other states. Seth [00:12:54] Yeah, absolutely. Because I would say, you know, on the, on this committee, not, I would say they were probably only even, I'd have to make a guess about twenty states represented. You know, other states have pockets of unionization, but nowhere near what let's say New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, you know, some of the East Coast. And then you go to the West Coast. You know, California is very unionized, but, and there's pockets all around. Let’s say you take Texas. You just look at, you know, Houston, Austin, maybe one or two other big cities. They're unionized. The rest of the state, they don't even have unions. Yeah. So it's a very different kind of way of looking at things, even though, you know, you listen to the papers or watch the news, you know, they'll say, oh, all of education across the country is such and such and it's not even close. It really makes you, really makes you think that what we have in New York is, is pretty unique. Yeah. Corbey [00:14:03] And, you know, in terms of New York labor organizing, like, you're now the president of the Capital District Area Labor Federation. How did you first get involved with them? Seth [00:14:14] So I got involved as being a member, so I’ll back up a bit. And so the Capital District Area Labor Federation is a federation of about forty different unions in eleven counties around the Capital District. And so we're, we're an organization part of the statewide AFL-CIO. And so, like our organization, the Capital District Area Labor Federation, there are eight similar ones across the state, one down Hudson Valley, Central, New York, Buffalo, etc. And each of them have a section of the, of the state. And of those affiliated unions, the teachers are one of them. And so for many years, probably, I don’t know, about twelve or so, I was NICE's rep on that board. And so I had sat on the executive board for all of those years. The woman who had been the president of the organization moved up. She's now the president of our statewide Civil Service Employees Association. And so they had an interim come in. He actually had some health issues. And so a year ago, they asked if I wanted to move into that position, and so I did. Christian [00:15:33] So as a president, what is your, what are your current focuses that you're focusing on from issues? Seth [00:15:39] Yeah. So most recently, obviously we were a lot of, very heavy into the politics. So we spent, you know, probably most of the summer in leading up to the elections last week, working with various elected officials. So we always, you know, we do interviews of all the various candidates running for local assembly, state senators, �Congress. We don't usually get involved with small races. Let's say, you know, like, there's the mayor race here that was in Saratoga. We know those folks and some of our affiliates get involved, but as the Area Labor Federation, we just, we work on positions that people are a broad wide area so you know, an assembly person which would cover a whole area or a state senator. So we spend a lot of time talking with the various candidates, letting them know what the issues are for the various unions that are part of our labor federation. And so we've spent, that's where I've been wrapped up for the past couple of months, with all the elections just, you know, trying to get candidates that are, getting them elected to office who are understanding of unions. I don't always tell people, you know, people say, “Oh, you're just getting somebody elected so that they'll favor the unions.” I said, no, I don't want necessarily just to favor the unions. I want them to understand what the union issues are. And if there is legislation that they can pass that will be helpful. You know, one of our big groups is the building trades. So, you know, all kinds of construction sites are around and there's lots of laws that are out there. And we want to make sure that the laws are protecting the health and safety of all those workers. And so we want to make sure that we have candidates and people in that office who understand that as opposed to just, you know, it's great to have a business and they're bringing in lots of tax dollars. But if the people who are working there or building that building aren't going to have a safe environment, that's not good. So we, so we I think a lot of times our issue for the Capital District Area Labor Federation, which is sort of my background, is educating people, making sure that they understand what's going on out there with all the people that are working. You know, I mean, it's, you know, everybody talks about the economy. The economy’s driving the, you know, the prices of houses and gas and then your cost of living and what it's at the grocery store. And we want to make sure we'll all those people, they're working, some of them are in unions and some of them are not, are not. But it's, it's pretty well documented that union wages and benefits drive all benefits of wages, not just people in unions. Corbey [00:18:26] Could you talk about kind of like sort of the specifics of how you're promoting those candidates that are, you know, understanding and favorable towards unions? Seth [00:18:36] Sure. So one of the things we often do is, you know, we'll sit down with those candidates after let's say we've endorsed somebody and then will go through, we'll talk to them about, let's say, some of the public sector people who are, you know, police, firefighters, teachers, public hospitals, you know, what their needs are. Again, going back to talk about what the building trades some of those needs are and to make sure that they understand kind of, as I say, maybe health and safety type laws are. And we get, we will put together education fliers and then, and then our job is to then go out and talk to our members about what these candidates can do for them and to help their, you know, their livelihood and their workforce. Corbey [00:19:27] Mm hmm. And if you had, you mentioned your coming out of the midterm season right now, did you have a lot of, do you think you had a lot of success this season? Seth [00:19:38] We had a decent amount of success, a decent success in getting people either elected or reelected. And then, I think, in even in some of the candidates where we didn't win or the candidate didn't win, the people that we had endorsed, I think in some cases we've made some good connections with people who had been in, I'm thinking of, let's say, the Rensselaer County area just across the river. We had a woman who, very good, she was a public service advocate. She had been on a, you know, sort of a smaller �level government position and she was running for state Senate. She didn't win, but she's not, as she said to me about just a couple of days after the elections, I'm not going anywhere. You know, she's continued doing she works as a child advocate. And so I think we've made new connections with those people. And I think that's always good. And we've made connections with, with those candidates, even if they didn't win, with our unions. And so now they know what we're doing. And I think that's always very helpful, you know, as you move forward, when you're trying to do other kinds of activities. Corbey [00:20:53] And if you have a candidate, you know, that you are promoting and they don't win once their opponent is in office do you ever work with the one who was elected? Seth [00:21:03] Absolutely. There are some candidates that they don't want to work with us. But yeah, absolutely. I've always made it a point, you know, myself personally, and then certainly the Area Labor Federation, made it a point that, you know, those people are elected, they're in office and we need to work through them. Sometimes you know, we have lots of conversations with them and they'll say, you know, “No, I can't support you on these positions,” but at least they understand where we're coming from. So yeah, there are, there are always those kinds of things. You know, like I said, some will just shut you out altogether and they don't want to meet or you always meet with their, you know, assistant to assistant to assistant, you know, kind of thing. But, you know, you kind of keep pestering away at it. And, and that's what our members expect, you know, the members that we represent when we go there, because that's what we always say when we're sitting down with legislators, we meet with them on a yearly basis in the springtime, you know, sort of halfway through their sort of budget season. And we say to them, look, it's not me, Seth Cohen, coming in and talking to you. I'm representing, you know, five hundred teachers in Troy or the Area Labor Federation. We represent about one hundred and twenty five thousand workers in eleven counties around here and their families. And so it's not just me saying this is good. This is on behalf of all these people. Corbey [00:22:33] And do you think that the fact that you're representing like so many people, do you think that has a tendency to make people more receptive to the issues as opposed to if you were just like one, I don't, I don't say lobbyist because I don't know if that's the correct term or not, but if you were just one person trying to meet with your representatives. Seth [00:22:51] I definitely think so. Yeah, it, I think, they, they understand that it's not just, you know, even just me or even that, you know, let's say when I was a teacher president, I would go in and I'd say, okay, I'm representing the five hundred teachers in the city of Troy. But they also know those five hundred teachers have families and they have friends. And that's, you know, families and friends talk to each other. And so it's that whole like that collective idea which really goes back to the whole idea of what a union is all about, being a collective and the strength of many is better than the one. Christian [00:23:32] Were there any surprising ups or downs that happened to you while being the president of the labor union? Seth [00:23:39] Uh, let's see. I think one of the, one of the downs only happened, I'm trying to think now this is 2022. It's about 2018, I guess, in regards to, there is a specific Supreme Court case that affected us. So we're in public sector unions and we have dues. And so when somebody comes in to becoming a teacher or in, you know, works in a public sector, state government, things like that, they join our union and they pay dues to the �union because the union represents them in their contracts. You know, a teacher doesn't have to sit down and say, “Okay, this is what I want for my health benefits or my working conditions.” That's part of the contract that the whole union has put together. And so we charge them dues to make sure that that happens. Somebody in a different part of the country challenged that idea of having to pay dues. And so that, that concept had been around for nearly fifty years, of, if you're part of the union, you pay the dues because they negotiate on your behalf. And so it was challenged in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court overturned it. And when that happened, all of our members had the ability to say, “No, I don’t want to pay dues anymore.” But the Supreme Court also said if we have a contract, I still have as the president, I still had to advocate on their behalf. And so to me, it was like, well, they're not they're not one of my members, but they get all the benefits of all the things that I'm doing, but they're not contributing. And so, you know, people started calling "Those are freeloaders". And so that was, it was a down because now we, we had the potential to have all these people say, “Well, I'm just going to pull out.” In my local we didn't have very expensive dues because the officers and things got, you know, some small stipends and we had some money to spend on various kinds of things. But you look at the entire state, look at the large country, that can add up to a lot of money. So it was kind of a downer. But one of the things, great things that the state did was we had lots of conversations about and workshops about it, and what we really decided was we need to turn this around to a positive. And so what it actually ended up doing was making us much more aware of the conversations we needed to have with every single one of our members about why it's important to be in a union. And so it was kind of one of the, you asked up and down, it was a downer at first and then we were pretty much able to turn it around to say, “Okay, we need to have a conversation with every one of our members.” So in the city of Troy, like I said, we have five hundred, I had twenty building reps and some officers. There is about twenty people in our leadership. We each got anywhere from twenty five to fifty people and they went individually and talked to them and said, “Are you going to sign up next year to be,” because then you had to have everybody sign in every time on a yearly basis. And so we had those one on one conversations about why it's important to have, be a union. And it really it made a difference. It made a difference in the leadership. It made a difference in the union because then they were like, “Wow, they’re, they're really taking an interest in us.” Out of the five hundred people, we only had one person that did not want to be, join our union. And after about a year he actually left our district, decided to get out of teaching and we actually did that on a statewide basis. I spent a summer, it was probably 2019 going, sort of, door to door to teacher unions, teacher union households, talking to people about the importance of that. So it was a really, actually, even though I said going back to the decision, it was kind of awful at first. We turned it around into this is a really good, sort of, community union building exercise. And I think our union and many of the other public sector unions have actually grown stronger from it. Corbey [00:28:01] And now that, you know, union members, you said, if I’m understanding correctly, don't necessarily have to pay dues. I guess one, like, do the majority of, you know, union members still pay dues voluntarily? And if, you know, if there was a significant drop of revenue, like, what are some of the sources you might have had to turn to for, you know, more funding? Seth [00:28:26] So, yeah, so, so I know for in the teacher unions and public sector unions because the decision just affected public sector unions, not any of the private sector. So, you know, anybody who works for state government, municipal government, teachers, police, firefighters, that kind of thing. And I don't have, I don't know the exact numbers, but it is, there probably still about 95% of what they were before the decision. So it's been very strong. And I think in the areas where they've lost revenue because there's fewer �members, you know, a few members not in, I think most of the unions, they've actually just kind of like done a belt tightening. “Okay. Where can we sort of like look at our budgets, where can we cut back?” And they've tried to scale it that way. In some other cases, they've have, some of the large, you know, let's say the New York State United Teachers, which covers you know, we have six hundred thousand members across New York State, both retired and active teachers. And they look to some other kinds of grant funding. They've looked to some other voluntary contributions or different kinds of things. So I don't think the money aspect has, has hurt the unions. I think it makes them a little more conscious of how they're spending dues money, which is, which is always a good thing. Corbey [00:29:51] Where does the due money tend to be spent on? Like, what are the expenses that come with a union? Seth [00:29:56] Yeah. So in any, almost any union, the majority of expenses of a dues are paid for representing members through contract negotiations, health care benefits, and then I guess sort of in broad terms, the grievance procedure. You know, if something goes wrong or if somebody alleges, you know, my employer has done this to me, I want to file a grievance. And so there's a lot of paperwork involved. There's a lot of legal kinds of things involved. And so obviously all of that takes time and money. And that's where somewhere, you know, you put those three, the salary, health benefits, and the grievances together, that's easily 90% of a union's money. And then the other is, you know, education. There's always newsletters, you know, electronic kinds of things or paper type things. There's membership drives and that sort of thing. One of the things in New York State, let's say for the teachers union I mentioned earlier, I was involved a lot with the politics. None of our dues money went to political type stuff. The only money spent on political things was voluntary contributions. So that's, because that was a big thing. A lot of people would say, “Well, I didn’t I don’t want to be part of the union because I don’t like who they endorse.” And I'd say, “Well, none of your dues money goes to that.” That's a whole separate, it's called vote code. And that money goes to just political type things. And if you don't want to contribute to that, you don't have to. The dues part goes to all that, like I said, the bread and butter kinds of issues. So I think when people understood that, that was another reason people said, “Oh, okay, then I'm fine with that, you know, because I don't want somebody telling me who I have to vote for” type thing. Corbey [00:31:47] You keep mentioning that there are, you know, oftentimes differences between like public sector unions and private sector unions. Can you elaborate on, you know, is there like a political difference between the two make up stuff like that? Seth [00:32:04] Yeah, I guess probably broadly speaking, often times more of the building trades, construction, private sector unions, because their, their livelihood is a little different, it's business driven. And so they work for a company that is a for profit company, whereas somebody in the public sector, you know, if you're a schoolteacher, you work for state government, you're a police officer, you're working, you know, it's essentially like a nonprofit. It's not, it's not an organization that's trying to make some money. So it's just philosophically the kind of, those are two different things right there. And then the other thing that's a little different, most of the public sector unions, at least in New York State, they're part of the various different kinds of state pensions, pension systems. And so, you know, as a, as a teacher, a police officer, firefighter, state worker, you get into a state pension. You know, you contribute for X number of years, you work for thirty years, and when you retire, you have a pension. If you're in the private sector union, let's say you're a, you know, an electrician or steelworker, you are working and you have to, in a sense, many times fund your own pension, sometimes depending on the company. And the �company is matching what you're going through. But it's not always, it's not always the same. And so I think there's some, there's some differences definitely right there. And I think a lot of times the private sector and the public sector have a little bit of a battle over those kinds of things. Christian [00:33:50] You know, as you say, what are some big like intersections that you have with private sectors? Like, are there any like issues that public versus private are both going towards one thing where one gets a larger advantage over the other? Is there anything like that? Seth [00:34:05] A little bit. What I just mentioned about the pensions, I think definitely get more, you know, aspect. But I think recently, I would say in the last five, ten years, one of the aspects has been to try to meld the two and to really work on issues that are beneficial for both. And in, in the Capital District, I think we've been pretty successful bringing in good paying jobs in the sense of different kinds of, let's say, energy, different kinds of energy possibilities down, the Port of Albany has some new development down there. And so when you bring those things in which the public sector supports, all those things being built are being built by the private sector folks in the building trades, in the construction area. So that's one of the things that I've done as just in the year that I've been in, as being president of the Capital District Area Labor Federation. We have both on our executive group. And, you know, we we often have, you know, heated discussions about what's going on. And sometimes it has to do with, you know, what politician is going to favor something. But one of the big things we always come together on is, okay, are they no matter what the politician thinks on X, are they supportive of bringing in jobs that are good for these workers? Because the workers, they're going to send their kids to schools. They're going to have to have, you know, good police in the area. They need good highways and roads that are, that's the public sector kind of thing. So I think once people sort of sit back and realize that the two areas do overlap, they try to come together on it. You know, a lot of times on, you know, environmental issues, you know, there could be environmental issues regarding, let's say, a building. Let's kind of make something up, building a bridge or a highway. And you might have some folks in the environmental area saying, well, this is not really great for the environment, but the construction folks are, “We need this, you know, we need to build this bridge and we need this highway.” And then, you know, once you get people talking about it, you know, is there a way to do it a little better? Because even once you get the thing built, now, the public workers, you know, they need to plow it so there's more jobs for them. There's more tax revenue coming in. Tax revenue helps everybody, schools, hospitals and that sort of thing. So it's, there's a lot of compromise involved. And I think in this day and age with sort of the political climate, a lot of times compromise is not always like the best word is what I hear, even though I always say that's the only way you're going to get things accomplished. Corbey [00:36:52] So I guess, kind of, in your opinion, you know, this can be, like, nationally, locally. What do you think the most pressing issues regarding, like, labor and labor organizing are? Seth [00:37:08] I think the biggest thing today is for the most part, sort of, the change in where new unions or new union workers are coming from. And my experience really is more just in the Capital District. You know, gone are the days where, let's say in the 1960s and seventies, where you had big factories and, you know, there's hundreds of workers, you know, here in the Capital District. There used to be an automobile plant down in Green Island through the fifties, sixties, and early seventies, and there were hundreds of people working there. GE in Schenectady, you know, tens of thousands of people worked there �and they were all good union paying jobs. As those company, or the automobile factories gone, GE is scaling down. GE might even break up into three smaller companies. You no longer have these union organizing where you're trying to bring in thousands of workers at a time. Right now, most of the new unionizing in this area is small. You know, Starbucks workers, you know, fifteen people in one store or ten in another. Even the Amazon warehouse plant, I mean, the one down in Staten Island, there was one down here in Albany. You know, it was a few hundred kinds of workers. And so there's a real shift to the kinds of people who might becoming, workers, you know, McDonald's and all the fast food places if they want to unionize, you know, you're, you're trying to get twenty people at one McDonald's, ten at a different because they're all owned by different people as opposed to trying to say, okay, every fast food worker in the entire state is going to become a part of a union. So it's really a different kind of unionization. It's, it's, it's almost like mom and pop unionizing in, you know, small areas. We have nonprofit places, you know, where there's five or ten people working there and then, and they say, “Well, we'd like to be part of a union.” And so they start looking out and that's really different. You know, there's five people working and one manager or even fifteen people and one manager as opposed to, you know, even in a school system. Yeah. Like I said, I have five hundred people in the city of Troy that's in the school system. That's a lot of people compared to, you know, five or ten here or there. So the way in which we look at unions, I think is going to be changing over the next ten or fifteen years. Corbey [00:39:43] And do you think the fact that they, the new unions that are cropping up are like the, you know, dozen to a couple dozen people, stores and such, do you think the fact that they are smaller, that's, it's obviously possibly a different set of challenges, but do you think overall they're having an easier time because they don't need to worry about collecting, you know, I don't necessarily know the exact process of how this works, but they're collecting like, you know, twelve signatures instead of a couple hundred. Seth [00:40:17] Yeah, I think it's, it is probably a little easier, right. If you have. Okay, there's fifteen people that work here. And if we need to get, you know, whatever, three quarters of them to actually become a union. So we need, you know, eleven. It is a little easier to do that. But, um, it's that so, that, that's maybe a little easier in that sense. But it's also, I think sometimes a little easier for the organization. They only need to target, uh, five or six people to say, “No, I don't want to be a union.” And now you're not going to, they're not going to certify as it as become a union. So it kind of has pros and cons. And I think the other aspect is, you know, when you become a union, you want to become part of something bigger. And these individual stores so that all the, the Starbucks in the area, I don't know how many there are in the Capitol District. There's a lot of Starbucks shops. And I think right now I think there's four or five that have voted yes to become part of union, but they're all their own little union. Even though there's one organization, the retail workers, that are helping to organize them, they're all still individual. It's not like, you know, Store A is combining with store B and they, they talk to each other. They're, they're these little pockets. So trying to bring them all together is one of our jobs in the Area Labor Federation is to try to let them see that they're part of a big group, even if it's just, you know, they only work with these ten people at this one store. So it's definitely presenting challenges and I think it's happening very quickly. And so the people who've been in unions for a long time, this is new for them as well. And so we actually had our annual meeting about a month ago and we brought in someone from state organizing to talk about that, to kind of give some, here are some things that she had worked with some people down in Staten Island and a couple other areas. And so the big unions are trying to reach, and they're trying to stay ahead of the curve in the sense of, okay, we know this is happening. So we now have to, you know, people like myself who have not had that �opportunity to try to organize, you know, just a few people. How do you go about doing that? And so it's an interesting challenge. Um, and so I think that's going to be the, sort of going forward, the future. Christian [00:42:48] Are you guys happy about that? Are unions collectively happy about more companies wanting to be part of one community together, like for example, the Starbucks. Seth [00:43:01] Yeah, I would say probably any union organizer is definitely happy when people want to become a union or part of a union. It just there's, just the challenges about how to go about doing that. And I think the other thing that makes it a little more difficult, the definitely the unions there or the companies that are anti-union, um, you know, with the Internet and the ease of that kinds of communications, it's very easy to shut things down quicker than, than in the past. It's easier for them to get to individual people by, you know, text messages or whatever it might be to shut things down a little quicker. So it's kind of the challenges on both sides. Corbey [00:43:50] So what, uh, you know, you mentioned the changing in unions and now especially that you're coming out of the midterm election. Is there any, like, one particular thing that the Capital, Capital District Area Labor Federation is focused on? Seth [00:44:08] I'm trying to think. We've been, we’ve been so heavily involved with the federation. I think probably one of the big things, one of the things I didn’t mention that we have been doing, we, obviously, I kind of mentioned we do a lot with community. And so one of the aspects that we had been doing for well over two, two and a half years is we’ve been running food distributions. So people go to food pantries, you know, when they’re short on food or they need, need support that way. During the pandemic, people were just, you know, really hurting because they were out of jobs. So we partnered with the Regional Food Bank and Catholic Charities, an organization that helps people in a variety of ways. And so we, we were setting up these food distributions where the regional food bank would come. They drop large pallets of food. We got union volunteers, regular volunteers, and we put together bags of food for people. And then they would drive up and we just took down their ZIP code, asked how many people in a household, and gave them bags of food. And so we were doing them, and we've been doing them now for two and a half years. And then any one drop you might have a family feed or handout, I should say, food for anywhere from four to seven hundred families. And we really, as the pandemic went on, that got bigger and bigger. But the amount of food that was available to us to do that distribution has really dropped off. So one of the aspects, one of the things that we've been trying to work with our legislative people is how can we make this ongoing? It's, not it's really not sustaining for us to kind of six or seven times a month in various areas set up these food distributions, have people driving up and getting food. How can we, making the food distribution better out to the pantries, those kinds of things. So trying to work on those things. In fact, actually, next, Tuesday, myself, the gentleman who's our executive director of the Regional Food Bank, the executive director of the Area Labor Federation, we're meeting with Senator Gillibrand, the New York senator, at the Regional Food Bank, just to have a conversation with her, talk to her, show her what, what they have, what we've been doing. And so, you know, is there a way on a statewide basis, can we make sure that basically people have enough food for them? And, and that's, that's the other aspect of unions, definitely, you know, sort of nonpolitical. Doesn't matter where you’re coming from. We want to help people. And so, so that, that's an area that we're going to be focusing on. �Corbey [00:47:04] That’s wonderful. We are, you know, starting to come up on the most amount of time they want us to run for. But before we go, is there anything you want to add, like, that we didn't talk about that you think, you think would be beneficial to bring up? Seth [00:47:20] Um, well, I think the, I think this is a great project because when I talked to your professor, one of the things that he and I had talked about was most students and, I’ll just ask you guys directly, do either one of you have anybody in your family who is part of a union? Corbey [00:47:38] No, quite the opposite, actually. My dad's a CEO. So… Christian [00:47:41] All my friends are in unions. Seth [00:47:44] Okay. So one of the, because one of the things that we talked about was that families don't often have that interaction because the number of unions households has dropped so much. And so this is a great, great kind of thing. One of the other aspects that, that I do, there's an organization called the American Labor Studies Center. And it's actually housed in the city of Troy in a nineteenth-century house. There was a woman who, in the 1860s was the first woman who was the president of a laundry union. And so we, that's our area there. And they have developed lessons over the years for high schools and things like that. And so that's another aspect that when I'm talking to other people who are in unions, it's like, you know, talk to your friends, your kids, your relatives and things about being in a union and how it's beneficial not only for the union person but also for the company, and that they can work together. So just throwing in a plug for the American Labor Study Center. Corbey [00:48:51] Well, thank you so much for sitting down with us. Seth [00:48:53] Oh, you're welcome. Yeah. Good conversation. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Cobey Ellison '24 and Christian Giresi '24 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Seth Cohen Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio recording Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit August 11, 2023 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Seth Cohen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 17, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Seth Cohen is a retired high school science teacher from the Troy City Schools. He spent 33 years in the classroom as an educator and labor leader. He holds a BA in Geology from SUNY Geneseo and a Masters from SUNY Albany. As President of the Troy Teachers Association, he negotiated a half dozen contracts as well as advancing the profession for the 500 members of the union. He also served on the Program and Policy Councils for the New York State United Teachers and the American Federation of Teachers. He is currently the President of the Capital District Area Labor Federation; the Federation is affiliated with over 40 unions from the NYS AFL-CIO and has approximately 100,000 members in 11 counties surrounding the Capital District. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/63bc23ca3c9ae2c738f513d9b74290d4.jpg 6031e036c7a68a7dff3c78593160bdf6 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/7e9f83af0743394092555795b2b9abb2.mp3 ba23b51c4ea659f8925eaf6008973129 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/b21e48258a6c4da901ceebf6144e85bc.pdf 9a4548b0009fcd18bbc5d42ff97b15d5 PDF Text Text Tim McGuiggan Interview Conducted By: Isabel Kroeger and Nate Meyers Recorded: 3/22/2024 at 1:30 on Skidmore Campus Nate M. [00:00:01] Alright, so we just wanted to ask basic information to start off with like your name and where you grew up and also what growing up in said place was like. Tim McGuiggan [00:00:17] So my name is Tim McGuiggan. I grew up in a town called Whitesboro, New York, which is just outside of Utica. Utica was an old mill town that kind of fell on hard times while I was growing up. It was one of those towns that was built around, a company, it was built around General Electric, and General Electric pulled out, which made it really diminish the city quite a bit. But when I was younger, and still to this day, I still consider myself a Central New Yorker. It was a great place to grow up. The food is incredible, still is incredible. But you could go into one town, New York Mills, people were speaking Polish, South Utica people speaking Italian, Northern Utica, people speaking Spanish. It was incredibly ethnic. It was great place grow up, great, great place to grow up. That's it for now. Izzy K. [00:01:19] Um, so I know you talked about how your mother and your grandfather were in unions. Tim McGuiggan [00:01:25] Yes. Izzy K. [00:01:26] Um, and did that, um, affect you growing up? Did you know about it growing up. Tim McGuiggan [00:01:31] Oh, absolutely. Some of my first memories actually with my grandfather, he was, when I was younger, preschool age, like four or five, he was retired from the railroad, he was a railroad worker. And one of my fondest memories of him was my mother and I would pick him up and we'd go to the Union Hall for Friday fish fries or whatever the meal was. And it was, it was his social club, his... That's where he met up with all the old retired union guys, and they tell stories and things. So unions have been a part of my life going back there, not just the labor aspect of unions, but the social aspect of the unions as well. So earliest memories there, I remember also as a adolescent, early teen, my mother's union going through some fights. I also had an aunt who was a president of a teacher's union. That was back in the days when you could strike as a teacher and she actually led one of the first strikes in Central New York. So it was all around me as a child. Nate M. [00:02:37] Can you not go on strike as a teacher? Tim McGuiggan [00:02:38] In New York State, you are not allowed to actually strike. There's something that's called the Taylor Law in New York State, which makes it illegal for us to strike. There are some other components of it that give the union benefits as to offset the fact that we can't strike. Nate M. [00:03:00] Is there, do you think it like, is it equal payout for the benefits of not being able to strike? Tim McGuiggan [00:03:11] It's situational depending upon where you are, so the main payoff is this, teachers in New York State work on a salary schedule, so we're guaranteed a raise every year. We know, I can tell you what my raise is going to be for the next three �years, right? If that contract expires, then the salary schedule stays in place. So, in other words, even though our contract is over, I continue to get raises year to year to year. So that's the guarantee that we got in exchange for giving up the right to strike. I think it's good because I don't think, especially now, public employees striking gets the positive response from the community that it used to. So I don't think we would strike anyways. Nate M. [00:04:06] Um, was your grandpa still involved with the union even after he retired, like more than just meeting him? Tim McGuiggan [00:04:12] Yes. He wasn't an active officer or anything, but everything from community service projects he was involved in, but if they had labor rallies, he was always there for those. He still, even though he was retired, had a vote in the union, so he would always be there to vote. And they were the labor unions in Utica, but I think just about anywhere back in the 70s. They were very connected, so if the pipe fitters needed support in action, the railroad workers went there and he was there with those too. There was a social aspect to that too as well, but he was definitely still active in the labor movement even after he retired. Nate M. [00:05:04] I'm sorry, these are kind of choppy. That's OK. We had to cut it down from how many we originally had. What exactly do you do for the union, and how long have you been doing it? Tim McGuiggan [00:05:15] Okay, so currently I am the president of the Saratoga Springs Teachers Association. That's the teachers union for the Sarotoga Springs City School District. We have 548 members. I am elected to a two-year term. I'm serving in my third two- year term right now, so I've been in this position for six years. Previous to that I was, I think the best term to equate it would be a shop steward. I was a head building rep in our high school which was our largest building for five years previous to being that. Previous to that I was also a vice president. I got involved in our union 21 years ago when I got laid off by the school district and as it turned out the president of our union at that Struck kind of a backroom deal with the district that would benefit her personally in exchange for not putting up a fight to lay off 13 turned out to be 13 people of which I was one so that outraged me quite a bit and prompted me to say okay well we need a new direction and you can't do that from the outside so if you're going to complain you got to get involved so that's how I got involved. Wasn't the best reason to involved or or situation that got me involved, but it's good for some fun. Yeah, but that's where I got in. Nate M. [00:06:48] Are there any current issues the union is focused on that you can talk about? Tim McGuiggan [00:06:56] The school safety is a huge issue for us. Not just where you're seeing, you know, active shooters, things like that, but we have a lot of very volatile students in our schools now. And this is not just us here at Saratoga, this is country-wide and my knowledge is mainly statewide. That's kind of whammy going on of we have a tremendous amount of teacher burnout happening, so we have a lot of people leaving the profession, and at the same time we don't have anybody entering the profession. So it's causing a tremendous of shortage of teachers, which does not, it certainly hurts the districts and it hurts our students, but it also hurts us as an association. We don't want to see that either. So we're very involved in recruitment right now as well. I would say those are probably the two biggest issues facing. Izzy K. [00:07:57] And how do you deal with those issues of the union? �Tim McGuiggan [00:08:01] Well, we have a lot of art, so we're associated with the New York State United teachers, NYSUT. They run a lot on the recruitment side. They're doing a lot there in terms of working with colleges. We actually started a program this year in our high school to try and recruit students to start thinking about possibly education. So we're running a couple classes. My internship program that I run actually places students as teachers, kind of as... Kind of a modified student-teacher situation, so to try and get people interested. So we're going down into even the high school level to try to get students interested and carry them through there for that. On the burnout side, that's not as easily done because the demands on teachers has changed a lot in the past three years and you're always balancing. What's good for, as a union leader, what's good for teachers with your primary focus, which is always what's best for students. So that balance is difficult. On the school safety side, that is a hot button issue in our community, especially if you guys, I don't know if you follow anything that's going on in our communities, but you have a very divided community about school safety. You have a large group of people who want a very upfront police presence, armed police presence in buildings, and then you have a very large group of people who see it the exact opposite way and don't see that as a good environment for students. And both sides are constantly trying to get the teachers to chime in on their side. So for as a union leader I have to be very careful how I address that issue. One, make sure, my primary job is to represent my members. I can't state my own personal opinions. I have to state the opinion of the membership. But there's times where I have to be careful how that's said so it doesn't get misconstrued or we don't pull ourselves into a place, into a conversation that we don't really have a place in. So it's a difficult balance, very difficult balance right now. Nate M. [00:10:21] How does the union handle internal... conflicts or just differing ideas. Is there like a place to debate? Tim McGuiggan [00:10:31] Yeah, we have a representative government built within our union. So our school district has eight buildings, right? Six elementary schools, a middle school, and a high school. In every building there are elected representatives and those positions are a one-year term so every june we have an election and each building picks who they want to be their representatives who are their voice basically they're they're congress people right. And then we have what's the next level up is what's called our executive council our executive counsel would equate to congress They are the decisionmaking. Group for our union. They then, whatever that group decides, gives the officers, myself and my vice presidents, okay, this is the direction we want you to go. Now it's my job to see that through, right? I don't have executive power like a president does. I don't sign off on things or whatever. I'm involved in the debate. I provide information in the but but they are the decision-making party. So, and even though it's those people with the vote have been elected, anybody can come to our Executive Council meeting so you don't have to be a representative to speak at one of our meetings. And oftentimes that's usually what happens. Someone will come bring a concern or an issue to the executive council, make their case like hey I think we should start pushing for this and then we'll debate it and then the council will make a vote and decide which direction they want to go. Izzy K. [00:12:16] Are there, like, what percentage of teachers are in the teachers' union? Tim McGuiggan [00:12:20] We, so this, I don't know if you guys may not know this, there was a huge shift in the labor movement for public employees recently. It was called the Janus decision. It went to the Supreme Court decision. It used to be we were a closed shop, which meant if you were a teacher in Serratory Springs, you belong to the union. �You didn't have a choice. Now everybody has a choice, so when people get hired by the school district, we meet with them and try and convince them to join the union we right now have 500, I think our exact number is 518 members. We have two teachers who are not numbers. That's it. The average in New York State right now is running somewhere around 90 percent. So we're well above the average. But it has changed how we deal with things quite a bit because it used to be just, you're a member of the union, you don't have a choice. Now we actually have to, which I think is a good thing, kind of an unintended consequence. It's made us actually stronger because it has the executive committees and the officers to be much more focused on talking and listening to every member rather than just you know, kind of the people who are involved. We do a thing in our union where we call it a one-to-one where we take that executive council and we divide up all our membership so every member in our association gets a one on one conversation with one of those executives council members, one of those building reps. And we basically, we don't ask them, we basically ask them three questions every year. Number one, how are we doing as a union representing you? What do you think we could do better? And are there any specific issues that we're not addressing that you think need to? And those, that came straight from, out of that Janus case where we decided we needed to make sure our members see us every year, hear from us. We're a big district. We are spread out over eight buildings. It's very easy for someone to get lost. So we make sure that we're in touch with everybody. And a lot of great ideas have come out of those conversations. A lot of good ideas. Nate M. [00:14:38] Do you guys ever collaborate with other unions? Tim McGuiggan [00:14:41] Constantly. Constantly, other teachers unions primarily. So, we are We have all different types of committees and associations. There is, in this area, there's something called the suburban council, which is very similar schools from Albany up to here that we work with. I'm also on the Saratoga County Labor Council. So on that council is people from aluminum workers, steam fitters. Uh... There's railroad there's communications union there are other teachers unions that are there professor university professors have representation there so it's it's it's a constant you're constantly communicating because you if you if you just to isolate to what's going on in your place you're not seeing what's goin on there's so many different resources out there for everybody so we're constantly talking. Izzy K. [00:15:46] In a slightly different direction. Can you talk about kind of everything that you do? I know you do a lot So not just Tim McGuiggan [00:15:54] Not just union? Okay. So all of my different roles, are you ready? Okay, so my primary job is I am a high school teacher in our business department. So within that I teach a college-level business law class, a 200 level business law class. I teach data design class, which is primarily an advanced Microsoft Excel class and I run our internship program. I am our union president. I run our business club, DECA club. I run a community service club that's through the Saratoga Lions as well. I am the lead of our mock trial team. I also teach, I'm adjunct professor with SUNY Adirondack up at Comstock Prison, which is a medium security prison. And I teach the law class and also the data class up there as well. Trying to think of what else I do. I am a member of the board of directors of the Saratoga's Community Federal Credit Union. So I sit on their board of Directors. I am husband, father of three adult children and also a brand new puppy. Nate M. [00:17:12] What type of dog? �[00:17:13] Yellow Lab Golden Mix. So we had two dogs. We have, we have not had a puppy in over 20 years. We're dog people. I met my wife 37 years ago, right. And we got our first dog when we were in college and we counted this from that point till our two dogs passed away in September. We have been without a dog in our life for seven days. And then there was another 10 days till we got this puppy. So, so we are definitely dog people, but one of the dogs that we just had to put down was a yellow. Lab golden mix and we thought he was just the sweetest thing so we said you know what let's give it a shot again so my wife is retired so she's home all day so she is actually dealing with the puppy which is nice i just come home and play. Nate M. [00:17:58] Was she at all involved in the union? Tim McGuiggan [00:18:00] She was a teacher for 34 years at saratoga springs schools she she was involved in the union as a member but never enough in an official capacity she was not a building rep or anything like that, but she was involved in a lot of our committees and things. Nate M. [00:18:18] Um, so you said you work with the prison a bit to teach. Have you had any, is there anything like prison unions? Tim McGuiggan [00:18:26] Yeah, as a matter of fact, I was there last night and I was having a conversation with one of the corrections officers. They all belong to a union called NYSCOBA, the New York State Correctional Officers and something or other association. And they are a very, very strong active union in New York state. Uh... So i was uh... One of them was talking about an issue so i introduce myself and told them what my role was we just kind of uh... As i have to i have a pretty long walk down to where the school area is in the jail and he walked with me and we just talked about the different issues that they're dealing with versus what we're dealing you know it's completely different world what they're doing with so but they are a very very strong union uh... And uh... They are uh... They have to be because, you know, I'm dealing with things like, you know, when my people get in trouble, it's because they show up late to work, or they leave early, or, you know, kind of somewhat minor things. When their people get more get in trouble, It's usually because they got involved in some kind of a physical altercation with an incarcerated individual, you can't use prisoner anymore. So. It's a much higher level than what I'm dealing with in a lot of ways. It's a fascinating part of my... I got involved in it two years ago. I wouldn't tell you it's the best part of my work week, but it is fascinating. It's definitely fascinating. Nate M. [00:20:06] Do you believe the work makes an impact? Tim McGuiggan [00:20:08] Oh absolutely, I can give you a can because of confidentiality, but I know of four of my students who have graduated with an associate's degree and have used that to either enroll in a four year program or used it to get a job. So we know for a fact that it works. Absolutely do. Izzy K. [00:20:28] So you're involved in, really involved in the community. Tim McGuiggan [00:20:32] Yes, very much so. Izzy K. [00:20:34] What's your motivation? �Tim McGuiggan [00:20:36] I love this place. I really do. I mean, you guys are here. It's not a normal little city, right? It's pretty amazing, everything that we have for the size we have in Sarasota Springs. And I firmly believe and have always believed that the school district is the center of the community just because we deal with everybody. We deal with everyone who has a kid. In a lot of different ways. So yeah, it's it's I benefit a great deal from living here. So the more I give, the more I benefit, quite frankly, it is a little bit of a selfish thing as well. So but yeah, I do. I've lived here for 36 years. I still do consider myself a from New Yorker just because I grew up there, but... It's it's been a wonderful place that I have never thought of leaving here at any point at any Izzy K. [00:21:38] Mm-hmm. Nate M. [00:21:48] What was the original purpose of the teacher's union? Tim McGuiggan [00:21:52] So teachers unions didn't really start until the early 70s. And in New York State, there was kind of the grandfather of teachers union was a guy by the name of Al Shanker, who organized the first unions down in the New York City area and started the New York State United teachers. And it centered 100% around pay. I remember when my wife started teaching, my wife started before I did. She knew people that were teachers. Getting a full teacher's salary, who were also collecting food stamps. Because the salary was just nothing. Our salary is still not, in comparison to other people, we're required to have a master's degree. In comparison to people with master's, we're still not on the same level. Yes, we do get six weeks off in the summer, which we get that. Trust me, no one takes that for granted. But that was the center of it. But from that also were things such as our health benefits, which are good in comparison to anybody right now, and also our retirement system were things that were built in to compensate for the salary discrepancies that we had. So that was the center of the teachers unions. That was the main purpose of where they came from, at least in New York State. Nate M. [00:23:19] Do you think like paying salary are still one of the main goals? Tim McGuiggan [00:23:21] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We are currently negotiating. I'm negotiating our contract, our new contract right now, and they're the number one and two issues. The cost of insurance is just, it's incredible. So, you know, you're talking real dollars out of people's pockets when you're talking insurance right now. So they are the main issues. We have other issues about work that we're dealing with about, you know, that you normally deal with in your contract language, trying to, you know how our work day goes and things like that. But the main things are always paying insurance. Always paying insurance, our retirement system is not, that's regulated by law so you don't negotiate anything when it comes to retirement. Nate M. [00:24:10] How long do contracts normally last? [00:24:12] Anywhere from three to five years, I would say the average is three years, but we are just, we came to the end of a five-year contract because we had a lot that we wanted to structurally do within our contract. So it took us five years to, you can't just, you can't, just come up with a completely new concept and say, okay, we're starting that next month. You've got to build to it. So we did a five year contract because we had things that we want it to build. Um, but on the average, they're three years. Most, most are three year deals. Nate M. [00:24:43] Is that, is that an average, like, for here specifically, or is that? �Tim McGuiggan [00:24:48] Again, New York State, I would say, the average is three years. Definitely. Izzy K. [00:24:55] When you're negotiating, who exactly are you negotiating? Tim McGuiggan [00:25:00] We are negotiating with the school district administration, so the superintendent of schools and anybody else he designates. Usually, every school has a finance officer. They're part of the negotiations. And usually, the school's counsel, their lawyer. They are technically negotiating on behalf of the school board, which oversees everything. The school board is basically the board of directors of the School District. They're technically negotiating for them on behalf of them, but the reality is the school board is going to approve whatever the administration, in most situations, it's rare that they would not support their administration. So that's who's on their side. On our side it's teachers, it's our officers, but then also NYSUT, our parent union, provides someone who's called the labor relations specialist, and they help us in our negotiations as well. But we do, and this is not normal, we as an association that serves the SSTA, we contract out with an actuarial service, we contact out with a couple of other services to help us because we're not professional negotiators, right, we don't, but we're not stupid, so we know to go to people who know what they're doing. Nate M. [00:26:22] While you've been president, have there been any particular issues you can talk about that have stood in the way of the union? Tim McGuiggan [00:26:31] In terms of getting it stood in the way of getting a contract or it stood in the away of us just as an association things that we wanted that we weren't able to accomplish? Nate M. [00:26:40] Either, whichever one is easier to talk about. Tim McGuiggan [00:26:42] Well, I cannot talk about our current negotiations as to what we're talking about and things. But in years past, the length of the workday and the amount of contact time with students has been something that we as a district, that was that five years that we had to work on and change because, again, this goes back to when I said earlier, as we're in a different situation in that. We're also worrying about students, right? That's, we didn't, like you'll hear people say all the time, you didn't become a teacher to get rich, right. You became a teacher because you love working with students and that's your goal. So there are times when you give things up for the students that may not be in your best interest as an individual and time is usually the thing. So, structuring your day is a very, very important part of any teacher's contract. And again, how many students do you see in a day? How many classes do you teach in a today? What are the responsibilities you have outside of just teaching and, again, what's the overall length of the instructional day? Those are big big hurdles that that are there. As far as negotiating a contract, that was our last one. We dealt with that a lot. Outside of negotiating issues that we come across in in for us is the entire COVID situation. I can't I can tell you how many hours I put in. So when that hit in March. No one knew what to do. So we scrambled, we went online. You guys were all a part of that, right? It stunk, it was terrible. Everybody knew it was horrible, right. So we spent that entire summer trying to come up with something that was better than that. But it's also, again, that balance. As representing the teachers, I had to make sure that what we came up with wasn't so oppressive to us that it just burned everybody out. But you also wanted to make it was a valuable instructional model for the students. So we spent, I mean, I think I worked seven days a week through �that summer just trying to come up with stuff. We're working with the district trying to come up the plan we were going to use when students returned that first year. So, and that still didn't work that well. But it was the best we could do, but it still wasn't good. Still wasn't. Nate M. [00:29:24] Um, do you feel like, I guess, did COVID have any impact on union meetings? Tim McGuiggan [00:29:31] Yeah, we had to go Zoom, and they stink. We went to Zoom meetings throughout there. Our executive council meets once a month. But here's the thing, they stink in the sense that for me, as president, I need to, it's not just hearing somebody say something. I need judge how important is this issue to everybody? It's not by just what people say, it's... You've got to look around the room. Who's uncomfortable? Who's comfortable? Who's getting agitated? Who is not? I'm constantly dealing with the different worlds of elementary versus secondary. Elementary teachers are nothing like secondary teachers. The secondary day is nothing like the elementary day. So I'm almost, I feel at times like I'm the president of two unions. So having everybody in the room is really good. Having everybody on Zoom takes away a lot of that interaction, but it's really convenient. So my members right now, I'm struggling right now getting members to come back in person, not because they're afraid of COVID or getting sick. It's just a heck of a lot easier, especially if you're an elementary teacher and your day ends at 3.30 and our meeting starts at four. Where we try to have it in a central location so they've got to pack up, get out of the school, come to the meeting, versus just flicking on their computer in their classroom where they can sit in great papers while they're listening to the meetings. So it's been a challenge getting everybody to come back in, but it's just so valuable that you can't not do in-person meetings. You know, I mean, again, picture Congress not in person. It's not the same. Not the same. Do you have any other? Tim McGuiggan [00:31:23] Have you taught anywhere else besides here? Tim McGuiggan [00:31:25] I taught, I started teaching at Ballston Spa. I taught there for two years before I came here. Prior to that, I went to, my undergrad degree is in hotel restaurant management. That's what I went school for. And I went, when I graduated college, I went straight to work for Marriott Hotels and I loved it, it was great. But I had an aha moment where I was working, I had worked a wedding, got out at 2.30, that was a Saturday night. I went as I was leaving, I made the mistake of looking in my mailbox and there was notice saying that Sunday morning, which was my day off, 7:30 cabinet meeting, which I was a member of the cabinet, I was the catering director. And so I had to get home, I got home about 3 o'clock, get back up at 7, come back down for the meeting. As we were waiting for the general manager, everyone was talking and it dawned on me that 12 of the 13 people sitting in the room were divorced. And I was fairly newly married, I think the third year of marriage. My wife was pregnant with our first child and I just thought this isn't a good lifestyle for a family. So I then, me and my brother who was a stockbroker, he was burning out of that job. We bought a bread distribution company. We delivered Thomas's English muffins in the local area so that I could go and get my masters at night. And he just needed a break. And we were gonna do that for, the plan there was to do that for two years, sell the business, and go our separate ways. And we ended up doing it for six years because it was a bit of a racket and we made a bunch of money doing it. So once that, and then it kinda came to an end and that's when I moved into teaching. Nate M. [00:33:17] I've gotta get into the bread industry. Tim McGuiggan [00:33:18] Not anymore. It's no good anymore. �Nate M. [00:33:20] Oh, really? [00:33:20] No, it's only a 2% margin now and they have a much stricter control over the distribution of it. Because they only have a 2% margin, so it's not the racket that it used to be. That's why we got out. We saw it changing. So we sold it. We started out where I think we owned the distribution rights to Colony, Latham, and a part of Albany. By the time we were done, we owned all the way from Clifton Park down to Cogleskill. We just kept buying up routes, buying up roads from different people because we kind of, we understood the system better than other people. So we were making money, making money. And then it got to the point where, well, Thomas got sold to another company and that another company came in and went, oh, wait a second here, what's going on? And we knew at that point, we were like, okay. So we sold the company, got out. It was a good deal, it's definitely a good deal. Helped compensate for the low teacher salary I was taking on. So yeah, so and then I started out, I started out in special education as a behavior specialist. So I took, I had my first program at Balston Spa, I had kids coming out of juvenile hall. So I've kind of come full circle. I started teaching kids coming to juvenile hall and now I'm winding up my career up at a prison. So That's how I started and then I moved over to Saratoga to start that similar type of program. Then I got laid off That whole story and then because my degree was in business They had a retirement in the business department. So I applied for it and I got it Nate M. [00:34:58] What were you teaching before business? Tim McGuiggan [00:35:00] Special education. So I was teaching those students earth science, algebra, English, and global studies. They were in my room all at the same time. Izzy K [00:35:11] Are there different issues that are important to special education? Tim McGuiggan [00:35:16] Absolutely. The laws regulating special education are very specific and difficult for a school district to follow. They're very labor-intensive. It's so special that it is very expensive, so it makes it difficult for districts. So one of our jobs, prior to me coming, I had a special ed teacher come over to come and see me because they're not staffing her room properly. She's supposed to she has a very intensive need students. Physical intensive needs, emotional intensive needs and academic intensive needs. She's supposed to have three people in her room with her at all times. In case one student kind of flares up, you need to have others in the room. Well, we're having difficulty filling those positions the district is. So it's causing issues where she's in a room with all these intensive need students and it's her and maybe one other person when she's supposed to have three other people. So they come to me to say hey they're not following the regulations so then my job is to go to the Director of Special Ed and point out the fact that they're not and I kinda tell them if you don't these are the options that I have to follow to force you to. Kind of thing and we don't you always you always want to come to an agreement rather than force a decision so you always I at least I find I always offer like how can I help in any way there's times where you can't do that there's just times where it's just listen you and I are at loggerheads and we need to force an action of some kind but you try to avoid those at all costs. You absolutely try to avoid this at all cost. It doesn't benefit you ever to go in and pound down the desk. I don't believe it. Izzy K [00:37:14] How can you force it? �Tim McGuiggan [00:37:16] You have, you have, so we have different procedures built into New York State law. So, or into our contract. So, within our contract, we have a very specific grievance process spelled out. So, if we feel the district is not following the contract, and that means any part of the district. So, let's say we have principal that is telling teachers, New York state laws. I'll give you a simple example that happened at the beginning of the year. New York State law says teachers must get a minimum of a half hour uninterrupted lunch, right? It's simple and basic, everyone knows it, it's been that way since I can ever remember. Well we have a new principal hired who came in from outside the state, doesn't know that law, and they started handing out 20 minute lunches. So I call up and I say politely, you need to give them 30 minute lunch. And the principal's response was, well, I can't, I need him to do this, this, and this, too bad. So then I go to the superintendent and say, okay, we're going to start our grievance process. They're violating the contract. We gave them a chance to fix it. They didn't fix it, so now there's a process we file. We write a formal letter, they have 10 days to respond to that letter in writing. Either one, they're gonna stop the practice, or two, they are going to say, no, we don't think we're violating the contract. Then from that point, it then goes to arbitration in our grievance process. We then go to arbitraion, and the third party comes in, it's just like a court hearing. We make the case, they make the case. Nate M. [00:39:02] So since you can no longer strike, what's a way you can put pressure onto the school district or like whoever you're trying to get adjustments to be made with in a way that isn't striking? Tim McGuiggan [00:39:21] Um You can, there's a couple different ways. If you feel like you can't, you can no longer work with the administration. They're just not hearing you. Then you start working with the school board and you start communicating with the School Board. That's a tactic that you use very sparingly because you don't want to go to the well too many times and you don't want to get the School board involved in minor things, right? It's got to be something big. So that's one that you can do. The other is, is you can force, you have the legal recourse through grievance if you have to, and you can follow that process. The problem with grievance is it takes a very long time. So let's say, again, the lunch thing. If we, we did not end up going to grievance on that one. We wrote the letter, the district responded saying we understand that the law says 30 minutes and and they fixed it right away. But let's say they didn't do that. It would probably take two to three months for them for us to have an arbitration hearing. And then it takes two to 3 months for that arbiter to come back with a ruling. And that entire time, whatever we're saying is wrong, is still going on because they're not changing it. So members get frustrated because they feel like nothing's happening and their problem is still there. But it's the process that we have. So, and then the other is, and again, this is one of those you have to be very careful how you use it, is collective voices, and sometimes involving the community, if need be. I haven't done that in as long as I've been around because we haven't felt the need to. We have an incredibly supportive community. Our school budgets pass on average a 80 to 20 vote, which is almost unheard of. So you don't want to play that card. By involving the community too much because you can come across as, sometimes you come across as whining, sometimes they don't understand the inner workings of a school, so they may not, it may be difficult to explain it to them, so you don't actually get the point that you want to make. So that's a difficult thing to do as well. So primarily your best option is always sit down with the district administration and come to some kind of a resolution. It may be everything you want. It's enough. Nate M. [00:41:56] For legal recourse, do you have any, like, it doesn't have to be realistic, but any ideas you would- in a perfect world like to expedite the process. �Tim McGuiggan [00:42:11] Well, I would love for there to be, we have an arbitration process, but I would like another step in there, which is a mediation process. I would, like, because it's usually quicker, it's not binding, right? So both parties can walk away from it if they want, but if we had a mediatation step in, I'd like that. That's a third party sitting down and trying to help us negotiate the situation before we go to an arbitrations situation. I have In six years, we've gone to arbitration two times, right? Only two times. We've, we, the SSTA have won both times, fortunately. One was over an individual teacher and their performance. And then the other was in regards to our contract and the time of day or the amount of teaching time, right. You go through that process and there's no way you walk away from that process without somebody, and in that case both sides on it, feeling kind of some animosity towards each other. It's just, it's the nature of the beast. I would have preferred that there would be a mediation step in there, a third party to come in and kind of go, all right, one side. You're really not on base here. You might want to think about coming to a resolution or to say that to the same side, or say to both of them, you guys are both nuts. Here's in, but offer up some solutions that I would definitely prefer to see. I would prefer to see, but it's just not part of the normal practice. It really isn't. So that's one aspect legally I would like to see Nate M. [00:43:57] Oh, I have one more question that I was wondering. I know union busting was definitely a thing a little while back. Is there any modern versions of that? Tim McGuiggan [00:44:10] Yes, absolutely. And in this town, actually, fairly recently, so I referenced the Janus decision, which I believe is five years old now. Right after that decision, there were groups who were trying to lure teachers out of the union, telling them, you know, because your union dues, you know save yourself, our union dues are $700 a year. Save yourself the $700, the union doesn't do anything for you stuff like that. They actually, locally try to have a I think it was a, the primary purpose was a fundraising dinner, but they invited a bunch of teachers to come and they had a guest speaker who was going to, who was one of the parties in the lawsuit, who was a factory worker and wasn't a teacher, to again try to recruit people, not just Saratoga Springs, but in the area to try and get teachers to start leaving. They set it all up. Rented out a restaurant. When the restaurant owner found out what it was, he canceled it. And his response was he did not want to do anything that would be disrespectful to the teachers in the community. His kids came through our school. We all know them. So it built a tremendous amount of you know, respect from us. I promised you that we made sure that that business stayed in place during COVID and we rewarded him with a lot of appreciation for that just in bringing them business. But so for the year after that Janice decision there was a lot of that going on. It wasn't effective. They were not able to peel away a lot teachers, like, for example, us with only two. So it has died down again, but that was it was definitely. That was the attempt of the lawsuit that got brought to the Supreme Court, and they tried to use it, but they did not use it successfully. At least in New York State, they haven't used it successfully, our NYCIP was the state union was projecting that we were going to lose 15, that across the state we were gonna end up losing somewhere around 15% of our membership. And I think we ended up, like I said, I think the average we ended up losing is somewhere between 4 and 5% tops. And the majority of that was in New York City, not here. So it is very good. It's very very good and then the charter schools Was another attempt at union busting and then if that didn't work as well, so then they turned into a profit motivated industry. Nate M. [00:47:12] Did charter schools come into conflict with public schools a lot? �[00:47:15] Not here, but in mainly urban areas. Albany, they have two or three, but they failed. And then the school district actually took them over, and now they're successful. The concept, the actual concept of a charter school, you gotta, I don't know if you remember, I mentioned the guy who started teacher's unions, Al Shanker, that was his idea. He actually started the charter concept in New York State, but then it got stolen and the meaning and everything was changed. So in Albany, the district has actually taken those school districts over because they were failing financially, but they've kept in place a lot of the concepts of a charter school, a nontraditional school, and they're doing quite well, right? But now those teachers who were previously not unionized. They're now part of the teachers union, they're now getting paid because the phrase that you always heard was churn and burn. They'd bring in teachers, they'd burn them out, and then see you later, and they'd bring in more, burn them up, and throw them out and it just, it didn't work. Nate M. [00:48:26] Is there a union in the general area of upstate New York? Yeah, I know that's kind of a mystery. But that you think is the ideal for what a teacher's union should look like. Tim McGuiggan [00:48:42] I would say there is a union that I look to a lot for guidance and that's the AFL-CIO of New York State. The president of the AFL-CIA right now is a very dynamic person but even though they weren't faced with, because they're not public employees, the face with the same issues that we were with the Janus decision. He actually made that shift earlier. He's the one that I stole the one-to-one idea from. He's one that has talked about the idea of we have to accept the fact that unions got off the rails for a while. We need to get back to serving each individual member and connecting with each individual number. So, so. [00:49:30] Also, what does that stand for? [00:49:32] The AFL-CIO? If you go back way into the very beginnings of unionization the AFL was the American Federation of Laborers. That's one of the first ever labor unions there. I'm not 100% sure what the CIO stands for, but it is I think one of the largest. Izzy K [00:49:53] Something industrial organization? Tim McGuiggan [00:49:57] Yeah. They're one of the largest unions out there. And they have many different affiliations. Just like we as, so our structure is, so Saratoga Springs is the local association. We are a member of New York State United Teachers, who is a member of the American Federation of Teachers. So there's, and usually that's how unions run now. There's the local, the state level, and the federal, and the national level. So He's the director of the New York State AFL-CIO. There is a national level there, too. You will, again, probably not in your interest area, but recently, so the president of the AFT is a woman by the name of Randy Weingarten, who was a teacher in New York City, now she's the national president. She was just identified by somebody who's, Mike Pompeo was looking to run for president in 2024, as the most dangerous person in the world. More dangerous than Vladimir Putin, more dangerous than Kim Jong-un, more dangerous then anybody else she is because she's the president of the teachers union and his take was the teachers are going to ruin the world So we face some of that as well. We are definitely. Recently the CRT, have you heard that phrase. Critical race theory. There are many people out there who believe that teachers are pushing critical race theory and I can tell you with absolute certainty that of my 518 members, I would be willing to bet you that 500 of them don't know what critical race is because we don't have time to worry about that stuff. �Izzy K [00:51:54] Is that an issue that you face in the communities, like, has the community talked about that? Tim McGuiggan [00:51:58] Our most recent school board election, which was back in May, was very heated and very abrasive and just like everywhere else in the country, it became very political. And a lot of people targeted school boards to be kind of the ground level of where So we had people at our school board meetings, because at the beginning of every school board meeting there's an incredibly fascinating moment where anybody can get up and speak. And we were accused of everything from promoting gender conversion to critical race theory. We were promoting a people accused us of not letting teachers carry guns, even though teachers want to carry guns. I don't know one teacher that wants to carry a gun in school, flat out don't. So we got accused of a lot of things during those open forum sessions. And I met every school board meeting and I just sit there and listen to it. There's nothing you can do to convince some people. Izzy K [00:53:21] Yeah, we should probably wrap up soon. Just gonna ask like two more questions. So what's your perfect ideal world as a teacher union? Tim McGuiggan [00:53:38] So can I tell you, I was up in Lake Placid two weeks ago at a conference, and there is one of those stores on the main drag, had one of the stores that sells like funny signs. And their sign was, I wish to live in a world where a chicken can cross the road without someone questioning their motives. And I thought to myself, and I laughed, ha ha ha, and I kept thinking about that. And I'm like, you know what? That to me is what I want. A perfect world to me is a world where nobody passes judgment on somebody else. We're gonna have all different types of people in the world. Just let them be, long as they don't harm somebody else, but I feel way too much. I see it, I'll be honest, it's a concern that I have seeing students in our schools. Way too much, I'm right, you're wrong. Far less of... Any type of willingness to either work together or understand somebody else's perspective. It's not, it's not there. So yeah, a place where we don't have judgment is my perfect world, absolutely. And a lot of hot dogs because that's the perfect food. Nate M. [00:55:00] Based on that, would you say that you think the community is becoming more polarized down to, like, the students? Tim McGuiggan [00:55:08] I mean you watch, watch, well, so a phrase I use all the time and I've actually gotten some people actually reached out to me to ask me because they heard me quote it is, I have always believed that public schools are a reflection of a society, not a driver of society. Public schools are never going to push an agenda on society. We are an exact reflection of it. My membership is a reflection of society. I have people on all areas of the political spectrum, and that's just because that's who we are, our students. Are a reflection of their parents or their or their home lives. I should not say their parents because many of them aren't living with their parents, but they are a reflection of the homes. So what we're seeing in school is just a reflection about the community and absolutely yes we are polarized. There's very clearly polarized. Yeah. Where I don't see polarization, quite frankly, is up at the prison. Feel it. Yeah, I feel like prison is prison to me is like teaching 15 years ago. There's a higher level of intellectual curiosity For them, it's not a necessity quite honestly There they are a much more thoughtful and tolerant group that I see in my high school right now. �Nate M. [00:56:35] Do you think a large community, a large diverse community that's forced to live together is part of that reason? Tim McGuiggan [00:56:43] Yes. I mean, you guys walk around town, we're not exactly diverse in Saratoga Springs, right? I mean this is one you may probably edit out, but I mean the running joke about Skidmore was your bus that used to drive around was white, and the joke was even the busses are white in Skidmore, right? So we are not diverse. My membership is not diverse, our faculty, I have no control over who they hire. Our faculty is is not diverse. My membership is not. We are not a diverse community So I think that unfortunately adds to some of the polarization. Growing up in Utica again all of the different cultures that blended together That's I think what made me love Utica so much was you had to like I'm picture now There's a market in New York Mills called Hapanowitz's market You walk in, they all speak Polish, right? I picture now someone walking into that market, it's still there and they still speak Polish. Somebody like pounding on the counter saying, speak English. Like, no, you'll get what you want to get. Like, if you have to point to it, who cares? But instead of embracing those different cultures, we are kind of pushing away. So, yes, I would say more diversity means more tolerance. Unfortunately, that's one of the only things about Saratoga I'm not the most proud of. Nate M. [00:58:15] Any other questions? Tim McGuiggan [00:58:16] Yeah, you said you had two. Izzy K [00:58:17] Yeah, just final question. Is there anything that we haven't asked you about that you want to talk about or anything we did ask you about, that you wanna expand on? Tim McGuiggan [00:58:28] The only thing I guess I would say is the future of the labor movement or unionists is the phrase you hear a lot as people use as unionists. I think what you're seeing is the pendulum is swinging back. Unions used to be very powerful, then unions got corrupt. There's all kinds of evidence of it, right? They got corrupt and corporations in particular were able to use that to diminish unions but you're seeing laborers start to see the value again in unions there's strength in unity you can't fight starbucks alone but if you're the entire store you can. So you're seeing that growth in retail places that you'd never seen it before. So Amazon, Starbucks are kind of big name ones. You're starting to see the labor movement grow again because of the necessity and this campus is a classic example. Your professors just went through a massive fight. Massive fight. My daughter is a doctor. She just left Albany Med. But she was down there, their nurses, I personally marched with them, I think, five times. They went through a three-year battle to unionize, and then after they unionized, the hospital still wouldn't give them the respect that they were asking for. They weren't asking to get rich, they were just asking for decent working conditions. And then COVID hit, and then all of a sudden the hospital's like, you guys are heroes, you're wonderful, yeah, yeah. But what were we six months ago, kind of thing. So I do think you're seeing a growth, definite growth, which that would be my question. Did you guys actually, as students, see, hear, or get any feeling about what was going on with the professors here? Was it pretty much a catalyst. Under the Izzy K [01:00:30] Um, I, there was a table outside the Tang Museum, um, where they had, they were giving out pins and that sort of thing. So I have a couple pins for that. I accidentally grabbed one that said, I'm voting for the union. And then I was like, oh wait, I know. So I had to, one of them says I'm voting and then one of the says I like for, um �teachers union or something like that. So there was that and we talked about it a little bit in our class because it's a labor class. Nate M. [01:00:58] Yeah, we did bring it up. It was also, some of the teachers who are not even sure now, because it's been a little while and they don't have the best memory. But they put up some posters on the entrance to the dining hall. I don't know, that was last semester, right? [01:01:21] Yeah, pretty much came to, Well, it was resolved in the spring. Nate M. [01:01:27] Yeah, so it was either the end of last semester or the start of this semester, but they put up flyers on the door basically listing for all the students their reasons for being unhappy. Izzy K [01:01:38] And last year, now I'm remembering, they sent out Skidmore News or something sent out an email to basically everyone that you could sign a form that said that you were for unionization. Tim McGuiggan [01:01:58] Yeah, so that would be the only thing that I think we didn't cover was what I think is going to happen in the future and that is I think you're going to see more and more of a resurgence of labor unions, especially in the non-traditional areas such as you're seeing like retail. Retail was never really a union stronghold service. Hotels have always been a pretty strong union area, but restaurants not necessarily, but you're starting to see that more and more Nate M. [01:02:32] Have you seen the news about the railroad union? Do you have any thoughts about that, that you're willing to share? Tim McGuiggan [01:02:40] It's interesting, I mean what jumps off the page is a 24% pay increase. I did not, I was not aware of the ability of the federal government to impose a contract on them, but I had to read up on that a little bit and where that came from. In essence, if the railroad shut down it would be a national emergency, so that gives them the ability to do that. So, yes, but look at what they were fighting over. They were fighting over salary, paid family leave, which is a real interesting topic, paid family leave medical benefits. And that's what everybody fights over, right? So, private, the law of the New York State says you can get paid family medical leave. If you're a private employer, you... You have to provide that, but it doesn't come off like it sounds. You have provide it, but public employees like us, they don't have to provide it to public employees. So, so if we want it, we have to negotiate it into our contract. And then the question becomes at what cost? Cause what are we going to give up? What's interesting about it is it's the, it's all insurance. So it sounds like the employers are paying. For their employees to go on medical leave. What actually, it's the employees are paying for an insurance policy that pays for them to go out. Money doesn't come out of the employers, not at all. They have to manage it. It doesn't cost anybody a dime other than the employees. So it's a question of do you want to pay for that or do you not? We do, we have a lot of very young, and my membership of all of New York teachers in general, it's very heavily female-dominated, right? Teachers are predominantly women. So maternity is a huge issue that we deal with. And fairness in using family medical leave or paid family medical leaves is something I have had to study and study and study to be up on it, so yeah. So that's, the railroad is like everyone else, money, benefits, health insurance. But trust me, the next time we go sit down with our district and we talk about our contract, I'm going to be throwing out 24%, 24% increase, you know. I'd be derelict if I didn't. �Nate M. [01:05:23] Well, thank you so much for doing this with us. Thank you. Tim McGuiggan [01:05:28] Yeah, I hope it works out well � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Isabel Kroeger, Nate Meyers Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tim McGuiggan Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:05:30 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit Septermber 22nd, 2025 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tim McGuiggan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 2nd, 2022 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource I have been an active member in our labor union for 28 years. I am currently a teacher at Saratoga Springs High School and adjunct professor at SUNY Adirondack. My most recent position within The Saratoga Springs Teachers Association was as President and served in that role for seven years. I have also served as a delegate to the New York State United Teachers Association ED10 committee. Currently I serve as lead negotiator for the SSTA along with Head Building Representative on our Executive Committee. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/3ab7aabaebe7e5b21ba948a33bd78eac.png b449f1adbf78665e1ba29712e9fa58d0 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/fa9ea7a6aff0d419f1d5c078c840b07a.wav c10c119ea0b5fda02eff80ce9f8a0545 https://www.ssmp.mdocs.skidmore.edu/files/original/4ff84dee8e99c720c48f4b99835c8647.pdf c305531d9962f05245011b904418ef4c PDF Text Text Marah_Evan_ALH.wav Marah Frese-Despins [00:00:05] I'm Marah Frese-Despins. Evan Forrest [00:00:08] I'm Evan Forrest. Todd Shapiro [00:00:10] I'm Todd Shapiro. Marah Frese-Despins [00:00:12] The date is April 15th, 2024. Evan Forrest [00:00:16] All right. So we're going to start with a couple questions about your childhood. So let's start with an easy one. Where did you grow up? Todd Shapiro [00:00:25] I grew up in a town called Newington, Connecticut, just outside of Hartford. Evan Forrest [00:00:29] And what was your family like? Todd Shapiro [00:00:32] I am an only child. My father, Norm, was an industrial engineer. And my mother, Barbara, was a, dental hygienist. And I had a great childhood. No complaints. Evan Forrest [00:00:45] Nice. So what was your early education like? Middle school. High school? And did you like school? Todd Shapiro [00:00:53] Yes. Liked school very much. Liked elementary. Middle school. Went to an interesting, I don't know if it was experimental, but it was a middle school that, had, like, a team structure. So it wasn't the traditional, like, you're in one classroom the whole day. It was sort of almost like a college campus kind of thing where you change, I mean, in middle school, we were in sort of, each, each grade was a wing. And you would you would move between classes. And it was sort of cutting edge for the time in the late 70s, early 80s. Evan Forrest [00:01:35] That's interesting. So do you remember your first job? What was that like? Todd Shapiro [00:01:40] My first and only job. I worked at Newington Bicycle for over ten years. I started at 15. State of Connecticut said that 15 year olds could work like a certain amount of limited hours after school. So before I was even 16, I was working in the bike shop. I'm an avid cyclist. I've been racing since I was, I don't know, 12 years old and started at this job as a stock stock boy, you know, stocking shelves, sweeping floors and then eventually worked my way up to be, manager of the store. Evan Forrest [00:02:15] Nice so you're kind of mixing pleasure with work. Todd Shapiro [00:02:17] That's right, that's right. Evan Forrest [00:02:18] Find something you're interested in. Todd Shapiro [00:02:20] Exactly. �Marah Frese-Despins [00:02:23] Do you want to tell us about your time in college? What undergrad school you went to. Graduate? Todd Shapiro [00:02:28] Sure. Undergraduate, I went to University of Vermont. I did not go to Brandeis because that's where my daughter is going in the fall. So, undergraduate was University of Vermont in Burlington. I was a business major with a focus on productions and operations. So that's everything from, like, statistical process control, industrial engineering. So, yes, I was in the business school, but it had a sort of an engineering bend. And while in school, my, Italian teacher mentioned that I wanted to get into, you know, working in a bike shop and being very into, like, bikes and gear and outdoor things. I wanted to work in manufacturing for an outdoor company. And in a conversation with my Italian teacher, my Italian professor, she mentioned that her husband was the CEO of Nordica, which was the ski company. You know, they made, boots and bindings and and she could get me a meeting with him. So I met this, head of Nordica, US in Burlington, Vermont, and I told him, “Hey, I want to work in manufacturing in the gear industry.” And he was like, “you're not going to do that in the United States.” Like, very little is manufactured here. It's all distribution. So everything is made overseas, imported into the U.S.. And then there's these advanced distribution networks that distribute the products, whether it's bikes or skis or mountain climbing, whatever your hobby is. And he's like, you should look into operations and start to understand the distribution and how it works. And that completely changed my trajectory. I went from focusing on like engineering and manufacturing to, you know, business and operations, and that changed my, my whole course, changed classes. I took, and then, even after college, what I, what I ended up doing. Marah Frese-Despins [00:04:31] Did that affect where you chose to go to grad school? Todd Shapiro [00:04:35] I moved to Boston after undergraduate. I worked for the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. And the Museum of Fine Arts had the largest museum catalog in the world. And what that means is all these museums sell product, right? They have gift shops and they sell products. But the MFA had a catalog. We would mail them. This is in the days of the days of old. You would mail catalogs, paper catalogs. People would read them. They'd find. Something they liked. They write it down on a piece of paper. Fold it up, put it in an envelope and mail it to you. To the catalog center. We had banks and banks of people opening these things. They'd take out your order, they'd enter it. Then it would go to the fulfillment center, and we'd pick, pack and ship and send it out. And that's how I started. It was distribution. So I worked there for about six years. I'm in Boston, and I realize, you know, I want more than just I mean, it was very big operation, but it wasn't like an L.L. Bean or, you know, a massive cataloger, so I decided to go to grad school. I'm in Boston. I mean, you got 62 schools to choose from. So I ended up going to Boston University for an MBA. Evan Forrest [00:05:51] Were you, part of any clubs or any other organizations where your time at UVM or in Boston? Todd Shapiro [00:05:58] Yeah, I was on the rowing team at UVM, so I got to travel all over the country racing. That was a fantastic experience. And I also got into logistics with that. I got trained to drive the trailer, so I would drive an 80-foot long trailer CDL, and, yeah, we would caravan all over the country racing, which was fantastic. And then, I was also in the Outing Club, got trained as a first responder, wilderness first responder. So I would drag people off mountains that were injured or hurt. And, my specialty was winter �camping. I actually love the cold. So. Yeah. So you can see where my love of gear and, and outdoor stuff, came from. Evan Forrest [00:06:46] Vermont's a good place to, to do it at. Yeah. Marah Frese-Despins [00:06:52] Do you think any of those experiences helped prepare you for your roles in management? Todd Shapiro [00:06:56] Absolutely. No question. Rowing. You're, you know, one cog in a, in a massive machine. So you've got to, you got to work to get. I mean, it's all the classic, clichés. You got to work together. You've got, you know, you're only as fast as the weakest link. And there's a tremendous amount of finesse and technique in the sport of rowing. There's, there's, you're so reliant on your equipment, right? So it's not just your fitness and your, strategy, but it's, you know, does your equipment work? Is it, you know, is, is the, the machine that you're moving gonna operate efficiently? Is your technique good? Right? Or is, are your oars going to go too deep or are you not, are you going to catch a crab and slow the whole boat down? So, I mean, you can start to see how that translates to a team you're working with, right? If you're on a production line, if you're working on a conveyor belt and you got multiple people and moving parts, you have to coordinate all that. And then in the Outing Club, you know, learning to be a wilderness first responder was just tremendous. I mean, you learn how to not only help people but lead, right? How do you motivate? And, you know, if you're on a hike and someone is injured, I mean, you got to get them out of the woods. So you have to encourage and motivate and, and think creatively of how you're gonna, you know, get this group of people with someone that's wounded out safely. So yeah, it absolutely applies to day-to-day work. Evan Forrest [00:08:35] Team player. Todd Shapiro [00:08:36] There you go. Evan Forrest [00:08:37] Yeah. So you mentioned starting off after college in kind of a smaller, less, I don't know, multinational kind of job. Was it your goal to kind of transition into a larger company with larger duties or. Todd Shapiro [00:08:56] No, there was never a goal. Like, I never was, like, I want to work in a catalog. I mean, when I was looking for a job after school, I mean, you went to the newspaper, you literally opened the newspaper. You looked at the classifieds and you would circle ads that sounded interesting, and you would write a cover letter in an envelope. Snail mail, send it. I sent out hundreds of, of letters, and the one that came back said, “Hey, we'd love to interview you” was the Museum of Fine Arts, and it was a distribution center for product. And I was like, this is fantastic. So yeah, there was no goal of like, oh, I want to, I want to work in a catalog center or I want to do this. So that first step, like each step, whether you're in school or you're playing a sport or you're in a club, right? These are all things that kind of build your, your background and your experiences. And they can each send you down a different path. So once I started working at the Museum of Fine Arts, I was involved in a very large catalog center, and I was like, this is pretty cool. Maybe I want to, you know, see where this could take me. So I worked there for many years. And then it started to feel small. I mean, it's 100,000ft², which is a very big building. There were, I don't know, 5 to 10,000 SKUs which are stock keeping units. So when you go into a store like Target, you know, there's probably 100,000 to 200,000 SKUs in that store. Everything from a pen to a razor to a toothbrush that's each got a unique identifier. So we had about 5000 SKUs at the MFA. And when I started as a recent college �graduate, I was like, this is unbelievable. How am I ever going to keep track of this? Well, by the end of a few years, I was like, this place feels small. I know where everything is. I know how the place runs. So I'm like, what's next? What's next? So that's, that's what got me thinking. And then I started to look for the next, the next big thing. And I, and I just kind of progressed. I went from there. I went to Aramark, which was a very large distribution center, and we did uniforms for every major company. UPS drivers, FedEx drivers, CocaCola drivers, all, you know, every driver needs a shirt, pants, jacket, belt, shoes, socks, hat, company hat with their logo. We did the embroidery. We would do about 60,000 shipments a day. The MFA was 3 to 5 thousand a day. Aramark was about 30,000 to 60,000 a day. And so, yeah, I started, you know, I wanted bigger, bigger. You know, it was it wasn't, “I want to go to a multinational. I want to go to something big.” I just I wanted the next challenge because you start to get stagnant. You start to get comfortable, and you're like, you know, I gotta. I want to grow. I want to grow. I want to do more. Evan Forrest [00:11:55] What did your day to day look like? I know you said your you're shipping off in this specific example uniforms, but what does that mean. So you go into work and you're just boxing up uniforms and selling them out? Like I can't visualize it right now. Todd Shapiro [00:12:08] Sure, sure. So the way I like to describe it is, if you order something online. So I don't know if you guys ever ordered from L.L.Bean or, let's use L.L.Bean. That's the best example in the world. So you you go online and you order a pair of the famous L.L.Bean boots, right? You and 100,000 other people are all ordering this stuff. So in the morning, when a worker in a distribution center shows up, you have to, like, start the system up. Right? And so you print the orders and it's called induction. And you induct this work into the system. So there's stacks and stacks of orders. That are the picklist. So when you are at home and you go, oh, I ordered these boots, and you open up your box and there's a sheet in there and it says, you know, size ten duck boots. And if you look closely, there's probably a little code it could say like, you know, PX-24. Well, that's a location. It's all done with coordinates. You know, these buildings are like 1,000,000ft². That could have a couple hundred thousand locations. It's essentially shelves. It's like the library. You've got shelves with books on them. But imagine you're like, okay, there's a section of all of shoes. There's a section of all the shirts, is a section of all the tents or whatever that these retailers sell. So you will literally grab a stack of orders that are printed in by walk pattern. So there's a tremendous amount of math and like choreography because you have to say, “Okay, Evan, we're going to give you this stack of orders.” You don't want to walk to the back of the building and grab, you know, a hat, and then you got to walk all the way up and grab some shoes and then go over it. Now, you want it efficient so you're assigned a section. You're like, okay, you're going to be in, you know, section P out of, you know, 100 rows or 100 aisles. And each sheet that you take is guiding you on a walk pattern, an efficient walk pattern. And so you'll go and just say, okay, there's a size ten shoes. Maybe for that day you're assigned to the shoe area. So all you’re picking is shoes. Then your racks are profiled. So yes, you're in the correct aisle. But the companies do analysis and they forecast what is going to sell the best. And it's loaded on the shelves in the most ergonomic position. So right here your top selling item is going to be in a very easy to reach place. The thing you sell like two of a year. That's going to be up high because you got to get a ladder to get it. So you're not going to make those picks very frequently. And then what you do is you do reprofiling. So after a couple of weeks of fulfilling, because these websites are, you know, they have the new spring lineup. So you reprofile your racks, you load them from the back with this spring's offering in very efficient locations. Then let's say spring is done and now it's the fall. And it's a whole different thing. Now coats are popular or whatever, you know, outcome the bathing �suits are off the shelf. And now the hooded, you know, sweatshirts are in that key location. So you're constantly reprofiling and readjusting so that you can have efficient pick runs. And you can, you can, you can get this stuff processed quickly. So you, you pick it all, you put it in containers and they're on an automated conveyor belt. That conveyor belt will take it around the building. Then it's got to go to a packing station. So now okay, you pick the shoes, you threw them in a box, they go down the conveyor. Then there's a station that might have to put some what's called dunnage or void fill, like bubble wrap or some crumbled up paper to kind of brace it. Maybe that person request some gift wrap, or maybe they requested a gift message, or maybe there's a second pick. So you put the boots in the box. The box heads down the conveyor belt to your area and you're picking, you know, I don't know, first aid kits, right. You know, L.L. Bean sells everything. So you're like, okay, “they bought boots. I'm going to put the first aid kit, I'm going to put some sunscreen in there.” And then it goes down the conveyor to the next area, to the final station that seals it, puts a label on it, overhead scanner reads it and routes it to one of 50, 60 tractor trailers that are there. So there's some going to the West Coast, there's some going to the Midwest, there's some going East Coast, South, Southwest, and then they route them and they drive them deeper into the mail stream to a USPS or UPS distribution center. So your morning literally starts with, “what am I picking?” Like that's how the whole process starts. Johnny Jones placed an order online, and that order becomes like a pick ticket of what you've got to put in the box. I mean, people don't realize this. They're online. They have no idea what entering that order does and like what that sets into motion to do. Evan Forrest [00:17:24] It's interesting hearing the other side, logistically, because the consumer just sees the computer screen and orders that, and then there's just so much more that goes on to it. Todd Shapiro [00:17:34] Oh yeah. It's unbelievable. Yeah. Marah Frese-Despins [00:17:37] What was the working environment like? There was, was it, were people happy working there? Were you receiving good benefits? That kind of thing. Todd Shapiro [00:17:43] Thing? Well, I'll start with the MFA and then I'll go to Target. So when I was at the MFA, it was a small catalog operation. We probably had 25 to 50 people in the distribution center. And it was sort of a feeling of like, you're working for a good cause, like you're supporting a museum and the artwork. And what we sold was supporting the artwork, right? You would sell prints of Monet or whatever, and the pay was alright, and the environment was not crushing, meaning you didn't have production standards. You know, it was look if, if somebody ordered some note cards or a vase, right? You know, you're not shipping body parts, you're not shipping medical supplies. So, you know, it wasn't like this huge sense of urgency. I also worked at Target. And Target is another world that is backbreaking. There are production standards. The pay is not great. Benefits are okay. And Target distribution centers ship 100,000 packages per shift. So you could be doing 100,000 to 300,000 or more packages a day in the yard where the tractor trailers are, there's 4 million cartons that have to be backed up to the doors and unloaded. And when I got to Target, I thought I made the show. I thought I was in the major leagues. That's what brought me to this area. I was recruited by Target and I was living in Boston, and they said, we're opening a new distribution center in Amsterdam. And I thought Target was going to the Netherlands. And then I learned that it's, depressed factory town west of Saratoga, where all this industry went out of business in the 1960s, and 30 to 50 thousand people lost their jobs. However, it's right on Interstate 90. So big distribution centers, 2,000,000ft² can get their goods and trucks right on the highway. So I was recruited to �open a distribution center that would serve 80 Target stores, came up here and moved up here with my family, started at the Amsterdam facility. And that's when the fun ended. It was soul crushing. And this is why your professor probably asked me to come here. So there's production standards you have to produce. Now I'm in this situation. I'm a manager. I have a team of people who are pick packing, just as I described, like at the MFA or at Aramark. But every quarter you have to pick a certain amount per hour. So let's just say, you've got to do 35 picks an hour this quarter. Every move you make. You are scanning everything. You scan the shelf, you're going to pick some boots, right? Just like in our other example, you scan the shelf, you scan the product, and it'll, it'll be, it'll, it'll give you a confirmation like that's the right thing. If it, if it gives you an error message, it's like, “hey, you just scanned, you know, a bottle of tide detergent, and you're supposed to be picking boots.” So you can see how it starts to take the humanness out of it. It's all like, it's all fed to you. So you have to pick 35 an hour. You got to hustle next quarter, the new production standards. You got to do 40 an hour. You gotta do like 20% more. So that works when you're doing like toothbrushes and boots. But what happens when it's grill season and you got to move a gas grill barbecue? It is. I would literally be going up to people. I'm like, “hey Tony, you know, it's you got to do 40, 40 an hour.” And he's like, “I couldn't even do 30. How am I going to do this?” He's like, “it's grill season.” These things weigh 150 pounds. So, you know, you have to also think of the type of product like someone could be stationed in, like the dental area where it's toothbrushes and toothpaste. Easy. But somebody that's over in grills or tool chests or bunk beds, I mean, you know, think about it like Ikea. I mean, that stuff is just killer. And it was just it, it killed me to press my staff to hit these production numbers. And if they didn't do it, I'd have to write them up. So I'd have to say, “you know, Marah. Hey, you know, this week, you know, you've only been doing 26 an hour, and you've got to get to 35 an hour.” And you'd say, okay, we're going to give it, you know, the rest of this week, I need to see some improvement. And off you go. And you do it. Now, what happens if you're rushing and you damage product? What if you're using a forklift and you take down the pallet of goods to pick and you dump it and you just dumped, you know, however many grills or whatever, and they're damaged. Now that comes off of a your, off your, you know, productivity report. And I would just watch us break people, literally break people. And then we would track their whereabouts during the day. So you'd say, okay, “you did. You did 26 an hour. You have to do 35. But I've noticed, you know, every day around 11, you're missing for 12 minutes” and you're like, “oh, I, you know, I had to go to the bathroom” and it's like, well, we've tracked this and it should take, you know, an average person about 3 to 4 minutes to go to the bathroom. You know what I mean? It's this unbelievable, like the conversations you have to have with people. And the only thing I can think of is if you want to walk into a Target or a Walmart or Amazon and you want to spend $4 for, for a shirt or a product like you, you know, the American consumer says, “I want this for five bucks.” Well, where are you going to get that margin? You're going to squeeze it out of your staff, right? You're going to get more efficient. You're going to get faster. You're going to hire less people. You're going to automate. And that was the only thing I could reason with myself to be like, “this is why we're pushing people.” But I eventually left. I could not stand it. I could not stand seeing what we did to people and how we broke them. And I mean, can you imagine having a conversation with someone about how long they spent in the bathroom? Marah Frese-Despins [00:24:21] It'd be horrible. Todd Shapiro [00:24:22] It's horrible. It's horrible. And, you know, here at the time, I have a master's degree, and I'm like, I'm walking around this thing just, like beating people over the head. Yeah, it was terrible. It was terrible. And, yeah, I left. �Evan Forrest [00:24:38] Were you, I assume, perceived as the bad guy or was it like a don't shoot the messenger type thing? Like did they understand that you were just the manager, and... Todd Shapiro [00:24:48] I mean, it's very interesting. Target and Walmart and all these places tend to hire in these roles people that are fresh out of college, fresh out of the military, where they can be molded. Right. I had already been in the in the workforce for 12 or 15 years, kind of running facilities and learning how to manage people. So I developed a very good relationship with my staff, and they realized, “hey, Todd's just doing his job and we get it.” But a lot of the new people that did not have real world experience just drank the Kool-Aid, delivered these terrible messages, and were perceived as the bad guy. They were like, “wow, this this kid's rotten. Like, this is awful.” You know, I had a little more empathy for these people. Like, these people had families, these people, you know, this was a good job for these people in this area. And, yeah, it was, it was tough. It was tough. Evan Forrest [00:25:54] And I assume that there's just managers that were just like you. All over the country as well. Todd Shapiro [00:26:01] There were 26 distribution centers. Target runs 26 distribution centers. Each distribution center employs a thousand people. So there's 26,000 employees just in product distribution. And the facility is run with about 30 managers. So I was in charge of warehousing and distribution. Somebody might be in charge of inbound freight. Somebody might be in charge of outbound freight. Somebody might be in charge of like high value. So about 30 managers in the building runs 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. I worked Thanksgiving. I worked Christmas, I worked, you name the holiday I have worked it, and I would do 80 hours a week. And it was, yeah, it was, It was soul crushing. It was awful. Awful. Evan Forrest [00:26:48] Were there ever talks with your employees about unionizing or things to increase their happiness? Todd Shapiro [00:26:57] I was trained, Target trained all of us in union busting. So here these people would start to organize, and we were trained as management on how to dissuade them and sort of scuttle it. You know, you couldn't say the word union, but there were techniques and phrases that we were trained to use to sort, you know, change the topic, change the, the thing. And Target was very successful. Very, very successful in, in squashing and, you know, union votes and that kind of thing. I mean, it was, it was eye opening, eye opening for me and it, yeah, yeah. It's, and Target is one of the more progressive companies. I mean, if you look at Walmart or Amazon, I mean, these places are brutal. Brutal. Marah Frese-Despins [00:27:56] How did working at Target and having those tough experiences, affect, like, your family life and personal life? Todd Shapiro [00:28:04] It was extremely difficult. My wife and I were newly married, and I was working 80 hours a week. I never saw her. And to this day, we refer to that as the Dark Ages. Target sold me on, they said you're going to work four days on, three days off. You'll work four, ten-hour days, and then you'll get three days off. I was like, “this is unbelievable.” They said, “you'll start at like seven. You'll get out at three.” And that's awesome. That never happened. I worked, pretty much every day I would start, I would get up at 3:30 in the morning to be at the facility at 5 a.m. to do production control. So that description of the pick tickets and everything, you have to sort of orchestrate the printing �and the dissemination of all of that. So you have to kind of figure out your pick runs and things. It's called production control. So, in a facility like a Target, because they have Sunday fliers or they have TV ads, that product has to get to the front of the line so it can get in the stores. Right. Like, imagine they do a big ad campaign and the distribution center forgets to, like, send something. So I was getting up at 3:30 in the morning to drive to Amsterdam, 45 minutes, to do production control at 5 a.m., and I'd work 12 hours. I'd be home at 5 or 6 and I would just, I was a zombie, I would collapse. And then, my wife was pregnant with our daughter, and my daughter, Zoe, was born. And I remember taking off two weeks from work. It took, like, an act of Congress for me to get time off. And I remember holding her. She's an infant, and I'm like, I am leaving this job. I'm never going to see her. Because you work all day getting up at 3:00 in the morning. You can't do anything when you get home. You know, you can't see your family. You can't. You don't even have energy to make dinner. So it was just get up, work, come home, collapse, do it again, do it again. And then having these horrible experiences at work, you would bring all that home. So the conversation was just like, this is, this is ridiculous. So yeah, it really affected, you know, and at least in my experience at Target, extremely high divorce rate, extremely high depression rates in management. I mean, these people are just, everyone is broken. Yeah. Evan Forrest [00:30:39] You mentioned a little bit the comparison between MFA, and Target and that there were production... what did you call it, production... Todd Shapiro [00:30:50] Production control or production standards. Evan Forrest [00:30:54] Standards. Is that what, that's what made the difference between Target and MFA, why Target was so much more soul crushing than MFA? Todd Shapiro [00:31:01] Yeah. Yeah. MFA was more of a familial or, I guess you could call it kind of a family atmosphere because the volumes were lower. It wasn't a Fortune 500 retailer, you know, it's this little museum in Boston. It's a big museum, but there wasthe pressure was not there. You know, there weren't shareholders. There wasn't, you know, there weren't Sunday fliers. There weren't, you know, because we were a cataloger. That's the other thing is you sort of launch these catalogs into the mail or nowadays on the internet, and you just pack your warehouses with the product for that season. So you're kind of like, all right, we're good. We got everything in the shelves are loaded. Let's just fill the orders. But at a Target, it is like 24 hours a day inbound and outbound. And so it's like, it's like sweeping the ocean. It's just, you are never going to catch up. And they know that. And that's on purpose. And it's just to keep you under the, under the thumb and you can never catch up. So you're always like going, going, going, going, going. And that also does not allow you time to think and unionize because you are so slammed. It's, I really feel, it's very strategic in how they build and designed and, and kind of feed these places, so, you know. Marah Frese-Despins [00:32:41] Where did you move next? Like, how did it get better? Todd Shapiro [00:32:45] Great question. So, I was hating Target, and, my wife was on Craigslist. That shows how long ago it was, 20 years ago. So I come home one day and she's like, “hey, I saw this ad in Craigslist. There's a little software company in Saratoga, started at the RPI incubator, and they're looking for people that have retail supply chain experience.” I was like, “huh?” So in all of my jobs, from the MFA, actually going back to the bike shop, to Target, I was always very involved in systems. You cannot run a facility of this magnitude without software and systems to, to manage it and track it. And I mean, it �is, it's mind boggling how much. So when I was at Target, they were installing $80 million worth of equipment and software to take the people out of unloading trucks. And so I started to become a super user. Right. You know, think of any jobs you've had or, you know, whether you're working at a grocery store or you're working at a bike shop or whatever, like there's, there's always a system, right? And you've got to get good at using that system. So in all of my jobs, I tried to become a subject matter expert to like, understand, I would train others and I would learn how they work. So my wife found this thing. She's like, yeah, “this little software company started in some kids dorm room. They built multi-channel retail software.” And so what it is, is it I mean, today you could laugh at it, but 20 years ago it was, “hey, we can run your inventory for your website, for eBay, for Amazon, for take your pick of a couple others.” But it's centralized inventory and it's all done online because years ago you'd have a website, you'd have a brick and mortar store, you'd have everything. Each one of those held the inventory differently. So if you sell hats, maybe you have ten in stock. Well, what if there was a run on them and the store sold them all? The website still thinks there's ten, eBay still thinks there's ten, Amazon still thinks there's ten. But the store sold them all. What these kids did is they centralized it in one single database and did it online, which people weren't doing at that time, so that the store, the website, eBay, whatever your channels were, they could draw on one central inventory master so that if you ran out of stock, it would automatically take it down from the other sites. Conversely, what if a shipment of more hats came in - automatically push them up. So I went to this interview and I had no idea what to expect, and I met with this software team over on High Rock near the farmers market, and they explained that they have built a multi-channel retail system, but they don't know retail. And, you know, do I know how retail works in the backend? And I was like, “wow, this is a match made in heaven.” And so I ended up working for them for three years. It's called Core Sense. They're down on High Rock still. And I learned how to implement software, and I brought my retail expertise. So I became sort of a product manager slash consultant. I helped them build out the system, improve it so the real world could use it. What they built in their dorm room was good, but it wasn't ready for prime time. And then we started to install it. And so I would go to a client site. I could speak the language of retail, at least backend retail, like how do you fill and operate? And I would consult, I would gather requirements. And then these guys taught me about software, I taught them retail, they taught me software, and we went and installed systems all over for this, this new multi-channel retail system. And that's what got me into software. So I've been doing software for 20 years now. Evan Forrest [00:36:52] That's awesome how you could use your, all of your experience to kind of transform yourself into a different role. Todd Shapiro [00:36:58] Yep, yep. Evan Forrest [00:37:01] So going back to kind of, management, we talked about a couple of the bad effects and some of the more unpleasurable experiences. Do you have any, rewarding parts of working in management and having a team that you kind of work with closely? Todd Shapiro [00:37:23] Oh, yeah. When you can manage and create a well-run machine of people, there's no better experience. It's fantastic. Like where I am now. I mean, I consider this group I work with, I've been there for ten years, like close friends, which is extremely rare in the working world. We are such a tight unit. We know each other's roles so well that you almost don't have to talk sometimes. And you can figure things out, get through problems. Solving work problems efficiently and with, with a great team is just an extremely rewarding experience. Yeah. Not having drama like, when you guys get into the �work world, you'll realize, like, there's politics and there's backstabbing, you know, all that, all the stuff you read about. But when you can find yourself working with a team that supports each other, has each other's back, is challenging work, rewarding work. There is no better experience than that. And it's, it's rare, you know, you may only find it once or twice in your career. But when you do, you know, you realize how special it is and how much, dare I say, fun, it can be to, you know, work on this stuff. Evan Forrest [00:38:47] So in an ideal world, if you're working at Target, how could you make that environment better? Todd Shapiro [00:38:57] You can't, you can't, you can't. The machine is too big. At one point, I thought I could, I was like, “oh, I can bring my experience from the working world to Target.” And, you know, I was, I was squashed essentially, like upper, upper, upper management, you know. You know, they're, they're controlling the managers too. Like, it's not just me as a manager controlling the front-line staff, but the executive team is putting the kibosh on the managers because they dangle the carrot for us. So they say, “okay, there's 26 distribution centers. Let's say there's 30 managers. You know, it's like 500, 600 people. We've only got ten slots at corporate in Minneapolis.” These are coveted, coveted roles to run a department in Minneapolis. And they're like, “okay, we're going to, we're, you're all competing with each other.” So no longer are you this unified team to like, improve the distribution center and make it better. It's like, “oh, my coworker, now I'm competing with you because there's only ten slots. There's 500 of us. There's only ten slots. I got to show my stuff, and I got to step on anybody I can to get that.” You know, it's not we rise or fall together. That's how it is with a good team. But in Target, it's step on your coworker to get, to get your opportunity. And, yeah, it's no way you cannot change it, it is too big. There's too much money involved. And, yeah, it's, it's, it's not for me. It's not for me. Some people might like it, but, yeah, you can't change it. Evan Forrest [00:40:50] It almost sounds like there's just so many levels. And then at the bottom, all the levels are kind of just weighing down and creates kind of that toxic work environment where you really just can't be successful or happy. Todd Shapiro [00:41:06] No, no, you can't, you can't. And everyone. So I had like a cohort when I started at Target, and 16 of us had previous real-world experience in that field. The other half were fresh out of military, fresh out of college, and all 16 of us left within three years because we knew life is much better on the outside. And since many of those that stayed have also left and, yeah, it's, yeah. But you know, when you read about Amazon or you read about Walmart, I mean, the stories are true. It's really like, to give you an idea, when we opened the facility, we needed to open with a thousand workers, the building's 2,000,000ft². You need a thousand workers to run it 24 hours a day, 365. Guess how many people we interviewed for those slots? Marah Frese-Despins [00:42:09] Like 5,000, I don't know. Todd Shapiro [00:42:12] Close. Evan Forrest [00:42:13] Well, I was going to say way less. Todd Shapiro [00:42:15] Okay. 8,000. We interviewed 8,000 people. So we opened the back of the building. It was like an airplane hangar, and we would assign people a slot 24 hours a day. We flew in Target. People from all over the country put them up, and we had teams of two and long lanes of, of interviews. And so you'd have a table with two people. �One person would ask questions, the other would notate. Then you'd switch off. 8,000 people and we only hired 700. We didn't even hit the thousand. So what does that tell you? Yeah, you can have a crushing work environment. That guy falls down. You can't hit the production standards. There's 8,000 more willing to come in right behind them. And, uh yeah, it's just it's just an ocean of people. People need jobs, and it's like we'll just churn and burn. And. Yeah, it's awful. It's awful. Evan Forrest [00:43:20] How did those teams of two, like, adequately, evaluate a candidate when there's so many different teams? Todd Shapiro [00:43:31] You have a set list of questions. Again, it's highly organized and choreographed. You have a set list of questions, and, you know, they're leading questions like, you know, if you're, if you're a good worker and you're, you know, trustworthy and all of this, you know, you can sorta tell by the answers. That's why it's two people. Because while you're asking, the other person is taking notes, but they are watching for, like, a tell. You know, could they be lying? Could they, did they get the dates wrong? Like, did they mess up, you know, and then you're like, “okay, this is a, this is a made up resume.” And yeah, it, it's got to be in teams because you're going to miss something like, you know, I could be reading the sheet asking the question, and he's like, you know, they're spacing out, doing something else, or, and then it's all noted. It's stapled in a box and then the next one, and then you got to process 8,000 applications and answers. So there's two boxes. There's like, you know, call them back for a second. Don't call ‘em. So you're sort of making a split-second decision on that. But you can tell I mean, you know, a lot of times it's, it's very apparent. But if you're, if you're not sure, if you're like, hey, maybe, call back for a second, let another team evaluate it and, and do it. Evan Forrest [00:44:56] Sounds like you've gotten pretty good at reading people throughout your years. Todd Shapiro [00:44:59] Yes, yes. Yeah. When you're managing people in, in, in a very physical environment, you really get, you learn people, you can read them. You know if they're having a bad day. You know if they're having a good day. You know what motivates them. You know what de-motivates them. Yeah. It's, it's the only way to survive and get better is to really learn how to work with people. Which is why in this new world of ours, you know, everything is remote. And, I mean, I work in a remote world now. I mean, I implement software at some of the largest retailers in the world, and we do it with teams all over the world, and we've never met in person. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable. And I feel that somebody knew, like, for example, the two of you, once you graduate, if you were to go to a software development firm, you gotta go to an office. Like, how on earth are you going to learn or whatever your field is. If you're at home staring at a monitor like you need mentoring and you need like, interaction. I mean, I really feel for, for younger people that are starting jobs, like, during Covid or soon after. It is hard. Like you've got to do it in person, learn how to work, learn how to interact with people, and then when you become more senior in your positions, then go remote. But to start off that way is, that's crazy. Marah Frese-Despins [00:46:28] Overall, are you happy to have had that experience at Target, even if it wasn't always great or happy to bring those experiences in the future? Todd Shapiro [00:46:36] Yeah, it's, it's I'm definitely glad I went through it. And look, having that logo on your resume, that opens doors, there's no question. I mean, I could have been a janitor, but people see the red thing on my resume and they're like, oh, you worked at Target. And it's like, yeah. And it's unbelievable how that alone can open doors �and, and change the conversation. And I'm glad I went through it. I mean, I, I would have always wondered, right, like, what is it like on the inside because you think, wow, this is a big, amazing company, you know, everybody loves going into a Target. But had I not done it, I always would have wondered, and I'm very glad I did. Evan Forrest [00:47:20] So going back into time, if you could go back, would you change anything about the way you approached college? Your field of study, knowing what you know now? Or if you could give advice, what would you what would you say? I know you gave the advice of going to an office and getting that human relation, and, but, would you go back and change anything about the way you approached it? Todd Shapiro [00:47:46] No, I, I thought I had a fantastic undergrad experience. I'm super happy I studied business, and I didn't, you know, I didn't go, like, the finance track. I didn't go, you know, the accounting, you know, the classic business stuff. You know, I stuck to what I enjoyed which was operations. And I'm super glad I did. But I will say you can always change. And a quick story. So in the 1990s, right. That's when startups and the internet and all of this was starting to take off. And here I am, an operations guy. Right. Physical product, kind of like a factory. And I remember, starting graduate school, going into the career office, like my first week and saying, hey, “I want to get into IT.” And they laughed at me. They laughed at me. Can you believe that? The career office at BU was like, “what is your background? No! You can't. You're ,you're in like, operations. Yeah. You can't.” And I was just like, “oh my God, I have to get into IT.” And so I graduated in 2002. So 20-something years later, I am so deep in IT, it's not even funny. So I would say, don't ever think you can't change or maneuver. You just got to kind of take stock of what you've been working on and say, “oh wow, what I'm doing now, could I apply this to the area of interest that I've got?” And, and you can do it just because I'm like, “wow, we use systems every day in product distribution. So why couldn't I be on the other side of that?” So whatever your interest is or whatever, there is always a way to figure out how to, how to get to what you want to do. And don't let anybody tell you, you know or laugh at you that you know, you can't make that change. So. Yeah. Evan Forrest [00:49:55] What does the future look like for you in your work environment? Do you just continue to do the same thing or... Todd Shapiro [00:50:02] Good question. That's a good question. I work in a very stressful environment, now, if you must know. Big websites, very big budgets, and very tight deadlines. Our projects run from a year to 18 months to spin up a, you know, a big website. We can have anywhere from 20 to 50 people working on it, developing it, integrating it. I enjoy the work. I enjoy my team. But. Yeah, I'm curious what's next? It's like, okay, you know, am I just going to keep building these things? And, yeah, I almost want to go smaller again. I almost want to get back to that, like MFA bike shop kind of thing. Like more entrepreneurial, you know. It doesn't always have to be big and fast and, multinational, multi-bazillion dollars, you know. It's like maybe do something a little smaller that, you know, a little slower pace where you can have more creativity. Because when you implement these big things, whether you're at Target or you're implementing a website for a major, major retailer, like, you have to fit their standards, right. You know, there's, there's margins. It's nice when you can put your own creativity and spin on something. So if you're doing your own thing, if it's entrepreneurial or it's a smaller company, you can wear a lot of hats and you can try different things and you can make suggestions and get creative. Right. And that, that is where I think it's going for me, is trying to get back to that entrepreneurial, a little more creativity, not pedal to the metal all day long, every day. �Marah Frese-Despins [00:51:47] I think we're about done. Unless you have any more questions, Evan? If there's anything you want to add. Evan Forrest [00:51:54] Not for me. Todd Shapiro [00:51:55] Okay. That was. Evan Forrest [00:51:56] Great. Marah Frese-Despins [00:51:58] See? Other. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 11, 2023 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Eric Morser Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Subject The topic of the resource Labor History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jesse O'Connell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. August 11, 2023 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Evan Forrest, Marah Frese-Despins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Todd Shapiro Location The location of the interview Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, NY Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Audio Recording Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 51:49 Record Creation Date Day/Month/Year of record creation/edit September 22nd, 2025 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Todd Shapiro Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15th, 2024 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Saratoga Labor History Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Todd Shapiro brings 30 years of experience in the retail supply chain, blending expertise in both e-commerce systems and retail distribution operations. Currently serving as the Sr. Director of PMO at DMI, he leads the Program Management Office overseeing large-scale e-commerce platform implementations. Todd and his team work closely with some of the world's largest retailers to build and enhance their online storefronts, integrating new features and driving operational improvements. Prior to his current role, Todd spent over a decade managing retail distribution centers for major companies such as Target, Aramark, and the Museum of Fine Arts Boston, refining his skills in logistics, supply chain optimization, and operations management. His extensive career allows him to seamlessly bridge the gap between traditional retail logistics and the growing demands of digital commerce. Todd holds a BSBA from the University of Vermont and an MBA from Boston University. Language A language of the resource English Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eric Morser Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral History